Su-27 vs F-16

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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agilefalcon16

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Unread post08 Feb 2005, 21:24

ACSheva wrote:Is VISTA even operational in our service? or is it just a testbed for the test pilot school?


Unfortunately, the MATV F-16 is only a test aircraft, but I do wish that the USAF would have brought into service after its testing was complete. :( I just wondered how well the MATV F-16 would preform against the Flanker.
Last edited by agilefalcon16 on 11 May 2005, 20:02, edited 1 time in total.
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ACSheva

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Unread post09 Feb 2005, 01:49

Well the Vista would probably have a much better chance at the Flanker than the C model. That Vista sure was a good jet though.
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kubam4a1

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Unread post09 Feb 2005, 14:46

I have read that Su-27SM's modernized N-001 radar has about 150 km range, and it can fire at ONLY TWO TARGETS at one time. On the other hand, F-16C50+, especially with new APG-68V9X(M) can attack at least four targets with its AIM-120s. Its range is MORE than 150 km. So it beats both Su-27SK and Su-27SM. But, one-to-one fight between Su-27SM and F-16C would be most probably won by Sukhoi aircraft. The newest F-16C's and D's are comparable to Su-30MKI's...
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ACSheva

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Unread post10 Feb 2005, 02:01

Regarding the 27Sm

It does have a better radar Zhuk-Sokol which is a Phased Array radar system, which is capable of picking up targets way passed 150KM,and also can track over (10) targets,and fire a multiple targets also. Outclasses the 16. Now thats a pretty good deal. Judge for youre self.
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kubam4a1

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Unread post10 Feb 2005, 09:41

Su-27SM modernized for Russia's AF have only better version of N-001. I think that Zhuk-M doesn't outclass APG-68V9, they are comparable, and APG-80 is much better than Zhuk-M
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ACSheva

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Unread post11 Feb 2005, 01:16

The N010-MSF Phased Array radar system,is actually capable of tracking stuff at 400KM out. Thats a pretty good radar man,anyway you look at it.
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toan

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Unread post11 Feb 2005, 07:03

N011M:
  • For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range.
  • A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km.
  • A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of acquiring Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km.
  • It can track 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously.
  • The forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation.
  • N011M can withstand up to 5 percent transceiver loss without significant degredation in performance.
Therefore:
  1. The effective detective / tracking range of a radar is depended on the RCS of its goal.
  2. The tracking range of the radar is about 3/5~2/3 of the detective / searching range of the radar.
  3. The N011M should have the longer detective / tracking range than AN/APG-80. However, the frontal RCS of Su-30MKI/35 (10~15m2 class) is also much bigger than F-16E/F (1~2m2 class). According to the basic formula for the relationship between RCS and the detective / tracking range of the radar, I don't think that Su-30MKI/35 with N011M will have significant advantage of "First Look" than the F-16E/F with AN/APG-80 in BVR engagement.
PS: The designer of AN/APG-80 declared this radar's detective range is two times of the detective range of AN/APG-68V7, which means it should be able to detect the target with RCS of Su-27's ckass 160 km away theoretically. The MTBF of AN/APG-80 is more than 500 hours, and it can TWS 20 targets at the same time (Which may be increrased to 50 targets in the future).

Source: <a href="http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html" rel="nofollow">VayuSena : A WebSite on the Indian Air Force</a>
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kubam4a1

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Unread post11 Feb 2005, 10:42

Su-27SM used by Russia's Air Force has N-001M, NOT N-010. N-001M is only a modernized version of N-001 used in Su-27SK... And it has maximum tracking range 135-150 km. Falcon with APG-68V9 would be capable to beat Su-27SM.., but it could have some trouble with the newest Su-30MKI....
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Unread post11 May 2005, 08:56

wedgeII wrote: I wonder how well the IRST works on that baby?

The IRST is fairly effective in dry climates but the performance deteriorates as the humidity increases. In the combat situation like when in the PGW#1, an MiG.-25PD shot down a F/A-18C, the RWR went on for less than a minute then went off. The MiG.-25 turned on its radar to confirm the position of its target. After that the MiG pilot used his laser to update and confirm the position of the F/A-18. The MiG. pilot fired an R-40 missile which killed the Hornet.

Amagzingly, interviews with Iraqi pilots after the war show they don't credit anyone with a kill the first night. So as far as their official records go, no Coalition aircraft were shot down. Never mind the fact Lt Speicher new flew home to the USS Saratoga or any Saudi bases.

Wildcat wrote:1) The aperture of the Su-27 radar is only 60° horizontal and 10° vertical (compared to 120° horizontal for a F-16).


CORRECTION -That is ±60° horizontally and vertically it is -10° and +30°.

COMMENT: While we may debate whether or not the F15 or F-16 can beat the Su-27, the USAF knows. Back in 1994 "a private firm" purchased two Su-27's and were delievered them by An-124! The Russian spokesman would not say exactly where the Sukhois were delievered but, he did say, the Sukhois were delievered to a place that was sandy (Nellis AFB, the airport in Area 51, etc?)

Janes 1997/98 Pg 405.

MiG21bisHZS wrote:I only flew in a MiG-21.


Howdy, boy you are fortunate!

Adrian
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007india

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Unread post07 Jun 2008, 07:03

SPIKE wrote:The SU 27 will slaughter the F-16 in a one on one.That is if the the pilot is a good one.The 2004 CO COPE in India,proved as a huge shock to us in air to air combat. The "F-15"s did almost poorly against the Su-27, 30, 33B. The Indian pilots are the sh*t.They took out Fighter School graduates in their sorties. So the new Sukhois are definitely the sh*t now. They are the biggest threats for us now. They also have extremely serious radars,and missiles.

Now we are not the kings of the skies anymore, the enemies are kreeping up on us.Thank God for the F-22.

Ciao


I can't understand what stimulates you to compare Su-30 with F-16 where the former is a twin engined vis a single engined F-16. comparing F-16 to Su30 is like comparing a botched FORD car with Toyota.

you describe pilots as sh*t, this shows your complex of inability to survive a failure. a fighter doesn't determines outcome of a combat but the ability of the pilot. we have downed even F-16 with MiG-21.

your fighter avionics are good to show in holywood movies like Airforce-1

Have a great day
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iJDAM

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Unread post28 Jun 2008, 03:46

007india wrote:
SPIKE wrote:The SU 27 will slaughter the F-16 in a one on one.That is if the the pilot is a good one.The 2004 CO COPE in India,proved as a huge shock to us in air to air combat. The "F-15"s did almost poorly against the Su-27, 30, 33B. The Indian pilots are the sh*t.They took out Fighter School graduates in their sorties. So the new Sukhois are definitely the sh*t now. They are the biggest threats for us now. They also have extremely serious radars,and missiles.

Now we are not the kings of the skies anymore, the enemies are kreeping up on us.Thank God for the F-22.

Ciao


I can't understand what stimulates you to compare Su-30 with F-16 where the former is a twin engined vis a single engined F-16. comparing F-16 to Su30 is like comparing a botched FORD car with Toyota.

you describe pilots as sh*t, this shows your complex of inability to survive a failure. a fighter doesn't determines outcome of a combat but the ability of the pilot. we have downed even F-16 with MiG-21.

your fighter avionics are good to show in holywood movies like Airforce-1

Have a great day


The Su-30 was made in 1997 and is on another class from the F-16 on its own, not to mention the fact that those werent trained pilots in the older versions of our aircraft. They sent their best people, with better planes, in familiar territory. If all the pilots were equal, they would have won(Indians). They have better aircraft. Even if the US pilots were better, they had few advantages to help them win. I'd be suprised if they even got a kill. But we have better pilots than those and our F-15/16s are being upgraded with AESA radars and the Aim-120C and later the D variant. We would more than likely win if we went against eachother now.
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Aks_20

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Unread post29 Jun 2008, 02:11

toan wrote:N011M:
  • For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range.
  • A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km.
  • A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of acquiring Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km.
  • It can track 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously.
  • The forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation.
  • N011M can withstand up to 5 percent transceiver loss without significant degredation in performance.
Therefore:
  1. The effective detective / tracking range of a radar is depended on the RCS of its goal.
  2. The tracking range of the radar is about 3/5~2/3 of the detective / searching range of the radar.
  3. The N011M should have the longer detective / tracking range than AN/APG-80. However, the frontal RCS of Su-30MKI/35 (10~15m2 class) is also much bigger than F-16E/F (1~2m2 class). According to the basic formula for the relationship between RCS and the detective / tracking range of the radar, I don't think that Su-30MKI/35 with N011M will have significant advantage of "First Look" than the F-16E/F with AN/APG-80 in BVR engagement.
PS: The designer of AN/APG-80 declared this radar's detective range is two times of the detective range of AN/APG-68V7, which means it should be able to detect the target with RCS of Su-27's ckass 160 km away theoretically. The MTBF of AN/APG-80 is more than 500 hours, and it can TWS 20 targets at the same time (Which may be increrased to 50 targets in the future).

Source: <a href="http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html" rel="nofollow">VayuSena : A WebSite on the Indian Air Force</a>


Nobody knows the actual performance of the Bars in actual service bar the Russians and Indians (and now the Algerians and Malays) - and they arent talking.

Many of the numbers you post above for the Bars are from a source which itself relies on multiple sources and is not too accurate in that respect.

For instance - the Bars can track 15 and engage 4. Not 20 and eight.

And some of the published information- even authoritative stuff - is wrong! Who knows whether the other stuff is correct or not?!
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007india

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Unread post29 Jun 2008, 04:04

The Su-30 was made in 1997 and is on another class from the F-16 on its own, not to mention the fact that those werent trained pilots in the older versions of our aircraft. They sent their best people, with better planes, in familiar territory. If all the pilots were equal, they would have won(Indians). They have better aircraft. Even if the US pilots were better, they had few advantages to help them win. I'd be suprised if they even got a kill. But we have better pilots than those and our F-15/16s are being upgraded with AESA radars and the Aim-120C and later the D variant. We would more than likely win if we went against eachother now.


[/quote]

Again you are comparing F-16 with Su-30; it’s like comparing Dodge with FORD fiesta. Both are different aircraft in their category. I do agree with your fact about trained pilots but not on radar and familiar territory. Why you bring familiar territory here, you are not doing picnic sort of sortie. A best pilot and a capable aircraft are measured in terms when it can survive a dog fight.
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Jaistick

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Unread post12 Jul 2008, 16:49

007india wrote:
you describe pilots as sh*t, this shows your complex

AFAIK, the bhai was using "sh*t" as in "good". You know how the language is--the Americans will say "this is BAD" to mean "this is GOOD". Difficult onlee. :)

As for this discussion, the Su-30MKIs are in Nellis for Red Flag in a couple of weeks. We'll find out a lot more after that. News is they have left behind their *special* stuff ostensibly because they were assigned A2G role. More likely because they expect a Raptor to be prowling around sniffing at the envelope.
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007india

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Unread post14 Jul 2008, 15:03

oh! ya, then one can expect F-22 to go in stealth if its not able to survive
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