F-22, F-35 Communications 2017

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
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notkent

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Unread post11 Nov 2019, 20:47

A lot of the problems do arise because of the need to be interoperable with existing out of date systems the military already has.

Technology debt is hard to retire, if a system is performing its job its hard to get the budget to stay current with new technology.
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Unread post11 Nov 2019, 21:19

notkent wrote:A lot of the problems do arise because of the need to be interoperable with existing out of date systems the military already has.

Technology debt is hard to retire, if a system is performing its job its hard to get the budget to stay current with new technology.


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doge

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Unread post11 Nov 2019, 22:48

X-37B!?!?!? :shock:
What are they up to something going to do!? :doh: (Mystery)
https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... plane.html
The Air Force Wants to Connect Stealth Fighters to Secret X-37 Space Plane
8 Nov 2019 Military.com | By Oriana Pawlyk
The U.S. Air Force is taking its mission to connect multiple platforms and battlefields to new heights -- literally.
The service's stealthiest jets and a super-secret space plane could one day share information.
That's the concept Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein teased this week, saying he's interested in seeing how the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, F-22 Raptor and X-37 space plane might talk to each other.
Audience members at an Air Force Association breakfast Wednesday at first thought the chief meant something a little more down to Earth, either the X-47B unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) or even the Kratos XQ-58 Valkyrie drone, which the service is experimenting with for its Loyal Wingman program.
But it is indeed the super secret X-37B space plane, a service official said following Goldfein's remarks.

"When you look at something like an X-37 or an F-35 or F-22 … as we refine these connections and we show that level of interoperability that is resilient, redundant and reliable, we will then be able to develop what that means in terms of creating an effect against the adversary," said Brig. Gen. David Kumashiro, director of joint force integration for the Air Force's Deputy Chief of Staff for Strategy, Integration and Requirements Office. He spoke at the DefenseOne Outlook event in Washington, D.C., on Thursday.

According to the service, the X-37B explores the practicalities and risks of "reusable space vehicle technologies." The low-earth orbit vehicle completed its fifth, record-breaking unmanned space mission last month.
Connecting the X-37B to the fighters would show "the ability to operate from all domains," Kumashiro said. That includes information sharing during wartime missions.
He demurred when asked what sorts of X-37 payloads or sensors the F-22 and F-35 could leverage during such a demonstration.

Preston Dunlap, the Air Force's chief architect serving the Office of the Assistant Secretary for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, announced at the DefenseOne event that next month the service will test how the F-35 and F-22 can exchange battlespace information after years of incompatibility.

These efforts are part of the Defense Department's larger goal to get information to soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines more quickly and increase situational awareness for all users.
The Air Force is also looking to debut something called "Omnia One," a unifying interface that shows operators not only where aircraft may be flying -- much like a combined air operations center -- but also where ships and other equipment are.

Plugging into something from afar isn't a new concept, Kumashiro said, explaining it's much like an operator sitting in a ground station in Nevada controlling an MQ-9 Reaper in the Middle East.
But the DoD needs to expand its ability to transfer relevant information quickly in a geographically agnostic way, Dunlap said.

"The idea is … [to see] a picture for space and air and land surface and cyber," he said, comparing the application to something much like FlightAware or Uber. "You can see a picture, you can click on the ship, see where it's been, where it's traveling, what's on the ship ... and we need to be able to get that to our warfighters in a way that's accessible" and flexible.

Dunlap said the service hopes to incorporate other tools into the Omnia One interface next month.
The initiatives give the Air Force a chance to modernize, he added.
"We want people to make smart choices regardless of where they are," Dunlap said.

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... ings-.aspx
Here’s How USAF Aims to Spend $30 Billion in Legacy Savings
11/6/2019 TOBIAS NAEGELE
​Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein speaks at a Nov. 6 Air Force Association event in Washington, D.C.

Repeatedly he emphasized the need to connect platforms across every domain. “While connecting an F-22 and an F-35 and an X-37 is interesting, let me tell you what’s more important,” he said. “Connecting an F-35, a B-52, an Aegis cruiser, a Special Purpose MAGTF [Marine Air-Ground Task Force], a Brigade Combat Team, and new satellites.”

https://www.defensedaily.com/air-force- ... air-force/
Air Force to Test Data-Sharing Between F-22 and F-35 Fighters and X-37B Spaceplane
By Vivienne Machi |11/07/2019
The Air Force is planning a December exercise that will test ways to get the F-22 and F-35 fighter jets and the X-37B spaceplane to transmit data in a contested domain, service officials said Nov. 7. Speaking at the Defense One Outlook 2020 conference in Washington, D.C., Preston Dunlap, the Air ...
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steve2267

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Unread post11 Nov 2019, 22:58

If I could wave my magic want and simply make it happen and, walla!, all Air Force nodes could communicate stealthily... it seems to my un-EE brain, that incorporating MADL equipment into other nodes is the way to go. Whether it is some new antennas on a B-52 (would seem to have plenty of space available), or a pod on an F-16 or F-15, or some new antennas on a boat... MADL would seem like the perfect place to start. Hopefully the .mil doesn't re-invent the wheel... but it's been known to happen...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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blindpilot

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Unread post11 Nov 2019, 23:47

steve2267 wrote:If I could wave my magic want and ... it seems to my un-EE brain, that incorporating MADL equipment into other nodes is the way to go.


If only we could easily do such things. I'll start with a ridiculous analogy to point out some difficulties with magic wands.

I should be able to make an old 2nd gen jet "fly by wire" ... but getting electric current and signals down the hydraulic fluid is problematic ... almost as hard as it was getting the hydraulic fluid to run down the cables and bell cranks when they went hydraulic....

It really is that difficult. even with a pod, the data has to get to a bus with voltages and currents and clock speeds that are so archaic as to be about as useless as a block of copper. But if we get the data there somehow, the display level presentation is not even from the same universe. I suppose I could get Google maps to run on my old land line dial phone, but where would I show the map, and can Siri interrupt my phone conversation with the human operator?

In ancient days when I was a Microsoft Alpha tester for US Space Command, "backwards compatibility" was one of the most difficult things to maintain. Sometimes it's cheaper to just buy a new printer,... costs less than an ink cartridge after all!

Some times apples is apples and oranges are oranges. But yes, you could run some wires from a pod to a stand alone tablet duct taped to the canopy ... was done in Vietnam. I bet Gums had one of those setups back when ... but that is sort of polar opposite from "5th Gen" concepts.

MHO, Just sayin'
BP

PS: Nice 3 minute video on the Decca Nav system. Not exactly 5th Gen approach, but I love the map display on the dash! (start at 2 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuKIGh8pojg
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steve2267

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Unread post12 Nov 2019, 01:57

blindpilot wrote:
steve2267 wrote:If I could wave my magic want and ... it seems to my un-EE brain, that incorporating MADL equipment into other nodes is the way to go.


If only we could easily do such things. I'll start with a ridiculous analogy to point out some difficulties with magic wands.

I should be able to make an old 2nd gen jet "fly by wire" ... but getting electric current and signals down the hydraulic fluid is problematic ... almost as hard as it was getting the hydraulic fluid to run down the cables and bell cranks when they went hydraulic....

It really is that difficult. even with a pod, the data has to get to a bus with voltages and currents and clock speeds that are so archaic as to be about as useless as a block of copper. But if we get the data there somehow, the display level presentation is not even from the same universe. <snip>

...

Some times apples is apples and oranges are oranges. But yes, you could run some wires from a pod to a stand alone tablet duct taped to the canopy ... was done in Vietnam. I bet Gums had one of those setups back when ... but that is sort of polar opposite from "5th Gen" concepts.



Furr 'nuff.

The military Lightning drivers love the iPhone analogies in lots of their talks and Q&A sessions. I was gonna say it's prolly too much to velcro an iPad mini somewhere in the cockpit...hell even as a kneeboard... Might do more to improve SA for some 4th gen pilots than to try to run the 'lectric signals through the magic 'draulic fluid to the RWR display in the cockpit...

Or get Garmin to do some gee-whizzary and replace some PFD's or MFD's with a MFD/PFD/GWD (gee whizz display).

Heck, if Boing was on top of their game... they'd be selling the F-15GWX with some sort of MADL integration (OR to one up the F-35... IFRL integration). I mean... they're installing a 20" Flat Panel TV :drool: in their SuperDuperEagle for crew entertainment... right? :doh:

Yeah, BP... I get it. But on the other hand... creating an information nexus node (i.e. BACN on a Global Hawk or what have you), just seems to be creating a target of opportunity for the enema... to disrupt the US kill chain... all the enema has to do is to find and kill the BACNator... It seems like that is introducing a fault, or a vulnerability into the US (or Allied) forces.

Going back to the military's seemingly new-found love for commercial development, faster-lighter-cheaper / extreme programming / agile development etc... why not go the iPad mini route? Create a pod that handles the MADL / IFRL avionics / programming stuff... but low power Bluetooth the necessary information to an iPad (or some new MFD with BlueTooth add-on (Garmin?))... Leave the existing aircraft systems alone... you're just providing power to the pod so its magic boxes can do their tricks. Using the Bluetooth magic to get the information to the stick actuator in the cockpit...

I used to think pods like this were stoooopid... but 4th gen aircraft are running around all over the place with so much crap hanging off them... what's another pod?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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blindpilot

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Unread post12 Nov 2019, 02:46

steve2267 wrote:... why not go the iPad mini route? Create a pod that handles the MADL / IFRL avionics / programming stuff... but low power Bluetooth the necessary information to an iPad (or some new MFD with BlueTooth add-on (Garmin?))... Leave the existing aircraft systems alone... you're just providing power to the pod so its magic boxes can do their tricks. Using the Bluetooth magic to get the information to the stick actuator in the cockpit...


As I was trying to show with the Decca video from the Vietnam era, you certainly can do this. But keep in mind that the integrated systems of systems magic gets lost. I won't be able to "ask Siri," -

'how do I get to the stadium and can you please buy the tickets, and text my brother and let him know when we 'll get there, and where to meet.'

The problem here is that this 5th Gen Magic of the "Siri Question" is what is powerful. An I Pad velcro'd in cockpit may not even be as good as the old Garmin I took down to make room for it. Just because it isn't plugged into my INS. If it can't buy the ticket to the game, and reserve me a place at the bar after the game, I don't even want the I Pad. My 3 year old cell phone can do more. It's a sticky wicket indeed.

FWIW,
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steve2267

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Unread post12 Nov 2019, 03:21

I'm missing the part where you can get that loving 5th gen magical feeling in 4th / 4+th gen aircraft with a BACNator comms hub flying on some "come shoot me" UAV somewhere nearby.

If you really want all yor pilots to have that magical 5th gen Siri experience, I don't see another option other than to byte the bullet and re-plumb the aircraft for fly-by-wire... that is, overhaul the avionics / systems. (And if I were doing it, I think I'd opt for adopting MADL in some sort of open systems architecture -- since I'm pulling magical fairy dust out of my **** at this point.)

But that's a sh*t ton of money and time. It'd be cheaper to park the Vipers and Eagles and buy more Stubbies.

Back to your Siri "please by my tickets and schedule my next oil change... and check on if that target will be within parameters in 65 minute..." example... Isn't -- almost by definition -- it impossible to add 5th generation magick to 4th generation aircraft?

At this point, though, it seems like the Air Force is not necessarily trying to extend the system-of-systems to 4th gen aircraft, as much as it is simply trying to get the 4th gens to talk to the 5th gens securely, without compromising the location / existence of the Siri-enabled crowd...

Getting an F-35 to be able to automagically command launch a slammer from a Viper somewhere (with little interaction from the Viper driver) is probably beyond a Viper, lest one spend time and money to completely replace the Viper's avionics.

Yes, it is a stickey wicket.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post12 Nov 2019, 06:58

steve2267 wrote:....
At this point, though, it seems like the Air Force is not necessarily trying to extend the system-of-systems to 4th gen aircraft, as much as it is simply trying to get the 4th gens to talk to the 5th gens securely, without compromising the location / existence of the Siri-enabled crowd...

Getting an F-35 to be able to automagically command launch a slammer from a Viper somewhere (with little interaction from the Viper driver) is probably beyond a Viper, lest one spend time and money to completely replace the Viper's avionics.

Yes, it is a stickey wicket.


And this sounds like what they are doing. "Just get me a 5% interface, let us play with it a few months, and see if we can identify the next 5%, and if it brings value to the game." Bringing up a robust MADL interface at a system level on an old 1990's ADA/Motorola architecture (supporting underlying processors, memory, software etc.), is probably very expensive, and at some point, you just buy the printer. Ink cartridges just cost too much any more. Printers at Walmart (F-35's) are getting cheaper every day.

MHO,
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Unread post12 Nov 2019, 07:51

charlielima223 wrote:


IRST (something similat looking to EOTS or some kind of IRST dome housing) was/is never going to be a part of the F-22. Unless they find some extra real estate somewhere or do some kind of structural modification for a dedicated EOTS or IRST housing, I dont see it ever happening. Pilots apparently loved the Scorpion cueing system and really want something similar and refined.



They're already on A-10s and F-16s.
https://gentexcorp.com/gentex-raytheon- ... t-program/

First thing they should do is definitely improve the comms of the F-22. This would give greater SA to the F-22 as well as to the strike package the F-22s are escorting. A helmet and improved sensors and that Raptor has even sharper claws.

Actually, the F-22 MLU is adding new passive sensors (i.e. IR as well as upgrades to ESM )to the F-22, as well as helmet sights.
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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 07:41

Air Force to link F-35, F-22 in ‘connect-a-thon’ experiment
12 Nov 2019 Aaron Mehta

"WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force is preparing an experiment it hopes will link the F-22 and F-35 fighter jets, the first in a series of experiments that service acquisition head Will Roper has dubbed “connect-a-thons.”

The experiments are to happen every four months, starting in December. The goal is to identify a fleet of aircraft with a communications issue, invite voices from inside and outside the Pentagon to offer solutions, and then test those offerings in a live experiment....

...The first event, hosted by North American Aerospace Defense Command and U.S. Northern Command, will feature an attempt to allow the F-22 and F-35 to share battlespace — a long-sought capability.

The F-22 was built with an older data link that can’t match up with the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, or MADL, system used on the newer F-35; while the F-35 can receive data through Link 16, it can’t share the data back [to the F-22 one will assume] — a key capability given the envisioned role of the F-35 as a major sensor for the future Air Force.

For the test, the service will use what Roper called a “Babel Fish-like translator” under the working name of GatewayOne to serve as a “universal translator” for the two jets. The first test, in December, will feature the equipment on a pole on a test range, with the jets pinging their information back and forth from that fixed location.

Should that system work well, in four months Roper plans to put GatewayOne onto a Valkyrie drone, a system designed by Kratos to be cheap enough to be disposable in a battlefield situation. It’s not the first time a drone has been used as a link between the two fighters: In 2017, Northrop Grumman pitched its Global Hawk unmanned system, equipped with a new radio, to act as a translator between the aircraft….

...The acquisitions chief said he is committed to keeping the four-month schedule going, in part because it means if the technology isn’t satisfactory, the service will know quickly and be able to move onto something else.

“The good news about that is [Congress and the Pentagon] don’t really have to believe us for very long. Just let us get through a few connect-a-thon cycles,” Roper said. “And if we’re failing miserably, then that should tell you something about the future of the program.”"

Source: https://www.c4isrnet.com/air/2019/11/12 ... xperiment/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 10:00

spazsinbad wrote:
Air Force to link F-35, F-22 in ‘connect-a-thon’ experiment
12 Nov 2019 Aaron Mehta

The F-22 was built with an older data link that can’t match up with the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, or MADL, system used on the newer F-35; while the F-35 can receive data through Link 16, it can’t share the data back [to the F-22 one will assume] — a key capability given the envisioned role of the F-35 as a major sensor for the future Air Force.


I think that there is a typo here. I think it should read "while the F-22 can receive data through Link 16, it can’t share the data back" (to the F-35). F-35 definitely has full Link 16 functionality with both transmit and receive but IIRC F-22 has receive-only capability. Of course using either MADL or IFDL is much preferable to Link 16 with 5th gen fighters.
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Unread post13 Nov 2019, 15:17

hornetfinn wrote:F-35 definitely has full Link 16 functionality with both transmit and receive but IIRC F-22 has receive-only capability.


You do recall correctly:
Page 186 of this 2018 DOT&E report

- F-22A Tactical Link 16 (TACLink) and Tactical Mandates (TACMAN) are separate pre-Milestone B hardware and software modernization programs intended to provide Link 16 transmit capability through the Multifunctional Information Distribution System/Joint Tactical Radio System and replace the legacy Mark XVII Mode 4 Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system with the Mode 5 IFF system. The Air Force expects to field TACLink and TACMAN capabilities in FY21 and FY22, respectively.


https://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY ... 18f22a.pdf
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Unread post14 Nov 2019, 12:07

wrightwing wrote:Actually, the F-22 MLU is adding new passive sensors (i.e. IR as well as upgrades to ESM )to the F-22, as well as helmet sights.


I am aware of that, however I wonder exactly how are they going to give the F-22 an IR system.
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Unread post14 Nov 2019, 12:13

@ aussie
I remember watching a short interview of an F-22 pilot with deployment time over Syria. He touched on how F-22 pilots had to communicate with other air assets. Essentially they had to use their own form of vocal comms. The F-22s were praised for effective being forward ISR assets but on the flip side of things, the Raptor pilots weren't as effecient as they wanted to be due to the aircrafts inability to integrate with the larger force.
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