AESA Radar range calculator

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
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swiss

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Unread post29 Oct 2017, 09:23

eloise wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I seem to recall an old post by Hornetfinn saying that given equal assumptions of target RCS and detection probability that the APG-81 likely matched or exceeded Irbis-E. That second one seems to pan out with that.

The first one is volume search
The second is cued search, so the detection range get much longer just like hornetfinn said.


When i remember correct, the Range for the ibris-e in volume search is maximally 200 km for a 3m2 target. Or 152 km for 1m2

So even a small AESA Radar like the RBE2 AESA must have a superior range.
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terrygedran

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Unread post29 Oct 2017, 13:20

swiss wrote:
When i remember correct, the Range for the ibris-e in volume search is maximally 200 km for a 3m2 target. Or 152 km for 1m2

Where did you get this from?
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charlielima223

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Unread post30 Oct 2017, 01:28

terrygedran wrote:
swiss wrote:
When i remember correct, the Range for the ibris-e in volume search is maximally 200 km for a 3m2 target. Or 152 km for 1m2

Where did you get this from?


Image

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Irbis-E

90km maximum detection range (and most likely those are at its highest power output, narrow beam, and no electronic interference) against a 0.01sqm target. Still wont be that meaning full of detection range against VLO aircraft like F-22 and F-35...

Image
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swiss

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Unread post30 Oct 2017, 08:12

terrygedran wrote:
swiss wrote:
When i remember correct, the Range for the ibris-e in volume search is maximally 200 km for a 3m2 target. Or 152 km for 1m2

Where did you get this from?


Take a look at Hornefinns post. Theres is also a link to official Russian site. But it dosnt work anymore. :(

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=52962&p=372755#p372755
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hornetfinn

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Unread post30 Oct 2017, 09:33

swiss wrote:
terrygedran wrote:
swiss wrote:
When i remember correct, the Range for the ibris-e in volume search is maximally 200 km for a 3m2 target. Or 152 km for 1m2

Where did you get this from?


Take a look at Hornefinns post. Theres is also a link to official Russian site. But it dosnt work anymore. :(

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=52962&p=372755#p372755


Strange, it still works fine for me with different browsers. Can anybody else get to that UAC site? Anyway, those specs have been published in several different places, including NIIP and they are also consistent with radar theory. Narrowing the search area significantly allows also significant increase in detection range and that works with any radar. Downside naturally is that the target must be detected and actually tracked by some other sensors fairly accurately for it to work. Otherwise it would need a lot of luck to catch anything. For example AN/APG-81 can probably use cued search also and can probably have vast range improvement over normal volume search.
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swiss

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Unread post30 Oct 2017, 22:45

hornetfinn wrote:
Strange, it still works fine for me with different browsers. Can anybody else get to that UAC site? Anyway, those specs have been published in several different places, including NIIP and they are also consistent with radar theory. Narrowing the search area significantly allows also significant increase in detection range and that works with any radar. Downside naturally is that the target must be detected and actually tracked by some other sensors fairly accurately for it to work. Otherwise it would need a lot of luck to catch anything. For example AN/APG-81 can probably use cued search also and can probably have vast range improvement over normal volume search.


Its really strange, know its works. :shrug:

Im curious. Where the Russians always behind in Radar-technology? Or was there a time when the Russians AF were on the same level with the US Fighters?
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ricnunes

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Unread post31 Oct 2017, 00:06

charlielima223 wrote:90km maximum detection range (and most likely those are at its highest power output, narrow beam, and no electronic interference) against a 0.01sqm target. Still wont be that meaning full of detection range against VLO aircraft like F-22 and F-35...


I'm not sure that you actually mean but the F-35 RCS is not 0.01 sqm target but instead it is 0.001 sqm target (there one more zero between the 0 and 1 in decimal places). That makes all the difference and as such there's no way that an Ibris-E can detect a F-35 at a distance of 90 km.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Dragon029

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Unread post31 Oct 2017, 01:58

Or even an order of magnitude or more lower:

On a radar map, a 747 would appear the size of a hot air balloon and an F-16 would look like a beach ball. Drill down to legacy stealth aircraft and Lockheed’s F-117 Nighthawk would show up as a golf ball while an F-22 Raptor might appear as a pea. With the F-35, Lockheed is getting down to pebble size, according to Robert Wallace, senior manager for F-35 flight operations.
Wallace, a former chief of low-observability for the US Air Force’s B-2 bomber, says the F-35 has leveraged LO qualities from the bomber – but he could not elaborate on specifics.
Pilots will see a more advanced low-observable signature on the F-35 versus the F-22, but it’s the maintainers who see the greatest leap in durability.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -u-432983/

If you take those sphere descriptions literally, we're talking about something like a 5mm diameter (metal) sphere, which mathematically equates to an RCS of -47.07dBm or 0.0000196m^2 (a decimal point followed by four zeros). Obviously / presumably that would be an RCS valley / ideal aspect angle, but if pilots know how to utilise it...
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swiss

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Unread post31 Oct 2017, 05:21

ricnunes wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:90km maximum detection range (and most likely those are at its highest power output, narrow beam, and no electronic interference) against a 0.01sqm target. Still wont be that meaning full of detection range against VLO aircraft like F-22 and F-35...


I'm not sure that you actually mean but the F-35 RCS is not 0.01 sqm target but instead it is 0.001 sqm target (there one more zero between the 0 and 1 in decimal places). That makes all the difference and as such there's no way that an Ibris-E can detect a F-35 at a distance of 90 km.


Even if we assume the F-35 has a RCS of 0.01. With the official Range of 200 km for a 3m2 Target, the IBRIS-E would detect the Lightning II in 48 km. And if Dragon029 is right, maybe a Russian Pilot would see the F-35 first with is own eyes instead on his radar screen. :wink:
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hornetfinn

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Unread post31 Oct 2017, 13:35

swiss wrote:Im curious. Where the Russians always behind in Radar-technology? Or was there a time when the Russians AF were on the same level with the US Fighters?


I think they were fairly close in 1950s, but started to lag behind in 1960s and continued to be left further behind. I think the main reason was the fact that they lagged behind in computer technology and especially manufacturing. Soviet government and key politicians made some grave errors in their politics and approach to computer technology which resulted in serious stagnation in technology and manufacturing development. This made it more difficult and time consuming to design new radar systems and their components. For example MiG-23 was always about 10-15 years behind F-4 variants in radar technology. F-4E was introduced in 1967 and MiG-23 got roughly similar radar only in MiG-23ML variant in 1978. Su-27 and MiG-29 were at lower technological level in late 1980s to where western radars were in early to mid 1970s with AN/APG-63 for example.

Of course Soviets were quite innovative and found some ways around their limitations. They designed huge interceptors with sometimes crude but powerful radars (Tu-128, MiG-25, MiG-31).

Today Russia has inherited that history and is also affected by shortage of money for development. They have done fairly well with their limited resources but have not been able to close the gap in technology and manufacturing. Their current radar (and other sensor) tech is at about same level where it was in 1990s in West. Su-35 with the powerful Irbis-E sounds great on paper, but I'd wager the small AESA in Rafale beats it in most capabilities and might even outrange it.
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wrightwing

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Unread post31 Oct 2017, 17:43

swiss wrote:
eloise wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I seem to recall an old post by Hornetfinn saying that given equal assumptions of target RCS and detection probability that the APG-81 likely matched or exceeded Irbis-E. That second one seems to pan out with that.

The first one is volume search
The second is cued search, so the detection range get much longer just like hornetfinn said.


When i remember correct, the Range for the ibris-e in volume search is maximally 200 km for a 3m2 target. Or 152 km for 1m2

So even a small AESA Radar like the RBE2 AESA must have a superior range.


I've seen similar numbers. 200km in volume search. 350-400km in very narrow, cued search. Of course we're still dealing with ~50-55% detection rate standards vs 90+% standards for western systems.
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swiss

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Unread post31 Oct 2017, 17:54

Thanks a lot for your explanation horentfinn.

As you said, this make sense, because the Russian where always behind in Computer technology in comparison with the usa and other western countries.

hornetfinn wrote:Today Russia has inherited that history and is also affected by shortage of money for development. They have done fairly well with their limited resources but have not been able to close the gap in technology and manufacturing. Their current radar (and other sensor) tech is at about same level where it was in 1990s in West. Su-35 with the powerful Irbis-E sounds great on paper, but I'd wager the small AESA in Rafale beats it in most capabilities and might even outrange it.


When we talk about current Russain radar, you mean the Russian AESA radars? As you mention in a other tread, the Ibris-E is on the same level as a AN/APG 63 or 70. That would be a tech level from the 1970 or 1980s?
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terrygedran

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Unread post31 Oct 2017, 18:19

swiss wrote:
When i remember correct, the Range for the ibris-e in volume search is maximally 200 km for a 3m2 target. Or 152 km for 1m2



Tell me what is the probability of detection ?
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swiss

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Unread post31 Oct 2017, 21:12

terrygedran wrote:
swiss wrote:
When i remember correct, the Range for the ibris-e in volume search is maximally 200 km for a 3m2 target. Or 152 km for 1m2



Tell me what is the probability of detection ?


In volume search?
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ricnunes

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Unread post01 Nov 2017, 01:09

Dragon029 wrote:Or even an order of magnitude or more lower:



Absolutely!

Hence why I said that a RCS value of 0.01 square meter shouldn't be considered for the F-35. Even the 0.001 value square meter is very conservative and a "worse case scenario" for the F-35.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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