Of DAS, EOTS etc..

steve2267 · by **steve2267** » 09 May 2018, 16:57

I forgot to throw up this image I found here: http://warfaretech.blogspot.com/2014/03 ... annon.html

While this image is comparing APDS (armor piercing discarding sabot) performance between three different rounds used by cannons on APC's, I think it can give you a general, qualitative performance comparison between the 30x173 (A-10) and the 25x137 (F-35) rounds. This image suggests the 25mm gets you about 2/3 of the wallop of the 30mm.

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 09 May 2018, 17:25

mixelflick wrote:How much more pop though?

Enough to punch a hole in a tank? Not questioning what you're saying, just curious..

Remember that the much vaunted DU rounds for the GAU-8 are a thing of the past. 25mm APEX is going to do better against armor than 30mm HE.

marauder2048 · by **marauder2048** » 09 May 2018, 22:26

stevedapirate wrote:
lrrpf52 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:I've been thinking about the same thing for A2A with the gun.

I suspect that guided bullets are going to have a range and ∆v problem when it comes to A2A. The AIM-9 can reach out ~20 miles compared to the GAU-22 or even GAU-8 that list ~4000 yards as the max range.

What I don't know is if that max range figure is due to dispersion or loss of bullet velocity.

Some high explosive rounds need sufficient impact velocity to initiate the fuze.

IIUC, some of the guided rounds that are being investigated can be command detonated via the datalink
so that could be less of an issue. For A2A, I tend to think the main utility of guided cannon rounds
would be in the C-UAS/counter-cruise missile role.

The company is also investing in advanced ammunition, such as programming 30mm rounds to be airburst rounds, which has great utility in countering unmanned aircraft systems, for example.

Orbital has a deployed a counter-UAS system with ground forces, but has ways to convert it to be used on ships or at sea ports.

And Orbital has also developed a way to guide small ammunition to hit even moving targets, Kahn noted.

The company took a 50-caliber round with precision guidance and hit moving targets in tests through the EXACTO program with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency several years back, Olson said.

Advanced ammunition has great utility for programs like the F-35, Kahn said, because instead of shooting 30 or 40 rounds to hit a target, a guided round can take out a target in one or two shots. An F-35 is limited to carrying roughly 200 rounds.

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2018/04/11/orbital-atk-expansions-anticipate-surge-in-dod-advanced-munitions-technology-needs/

stevedapirate · by **stevedapirate** » 11 May 2018, 21:32

I think that if you're going the route of guided gun ammunition you're probably going to want to go bigger but with a slower RoF. (Especially at $25k per shot!)

The GAU-8 has a max range of 1220 m where a 40mm Bofors has 10x the range and can reach out to 12,500 m. This should allow for a lot more flexibility in both A2A and A2G. With that kind of range you should be able to engage ground targets with guided gun fire from 40k ft. where manpads are a lot less problematic.

madrat · by **madrat** » 12 May 2018, 01:31

If you go bigger it's more stress per round unless you bleed off significant energy in a recoilless system.

It's probably easier to integrate guided rockets into a small stealthily pod. How far can you reach with a 70mm-ish folding fin rocket?

marauder2048 · by **marauder2048** » 16 May 2018, 06:39

DoD FY2018 Rapid Innovation Fund

U.S. Special Operations Command (USSOCOM)
Requirement #: SOCOM-18-BAA-RIF-0001
Title: Guided 30MM Ammunition Capability
Military System or Acquisition Customer: Program Executive Office (PEO) – Fixed Wing
(FW)
Description: Provide an enhanced accuracy, guided 30MM ammunition capability that is
compatible with current AC-130 W/J platforms’ Mk 44 Bushmaster II (GAU-23) automatic
cannon weapon systems. Deliver a 30MM round capable of receiving and responding to
externally provided post launch course corrections to accurately engage designated moving and
stationary ground targets, with guidance systems that are compatible with current Precision
Strike Package (PSP) on the AC-130 W/J aircraft configurations with little or no hardware
modifications. Proposed software modifications should lead to demonstrable capability by minor
additions to PSP software in about six months with full capability fitting in the annual PSP
software release cycle. The guided 30MM round target circular error probability (CEP) must be
predictable and provide considerable improved accuracy over standard unguided 30MM
ammunition. The guided 30MM round must operate within the operating envelope of the
AFSOC AC-130 W/J, altitudes (15,000 – 25,000’ MSL), ranges (1.0 - 10.0nm) and slant ranges
(2.5 – 3.0nm). Use of high fidelity modeling throughout development is encouraged to
determine the optimal munition configurations, characteristics and maximize the value of range,
ground, and flight testing. The initiative will conclude with a guided 30MM ammunition round
design, guidance and control system, and tracking system that has been demonstrated in a nearfinal
and realistic configuration.

talkitron · by **talkitron** » 13 Jun 2018, 17:37

Raytheon will replace Northrop as the supplier of the Distributed Aperture System (DAS) in 2023, corresponding to block 15. Raytheon did not bid as they apparently did not see much profit; Raytheon's price will be lower. Also, the Raytheon system should have performance enhancements.

Here is a press release and a news article.

https://www.f35.com/news/detail/lockhee ... 0002750882

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/06 ... 35-system/

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 13 Jun 2018, 18:17

2x increase in performance huh? Even if that really means twice the number of pixels per sensor for a ~40% increase in range that is very significant. The system already is credited with tracking orbital class launch vehicles from 800nm. A more dubious claim of detecting an AIM-120 launch from 1,200nm has been made, but I would be concerned about that claim at 10% of that range.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 13 Jun 2018, 21:54

https://www.f35.com/assets/uploads/imag ... GenDAS.jpg

smsgtmac · by **smsgtmac** » 14 Jun 2018, 02:36

talkitron wrote:Raytheon will replace Northrop as the supplier of the Distributed Aperture System (DAS) in 2023, corresponding to block 15. Raytheon did not bid as they apparently did not see much profit; Raytheon's price will be lower. Also, the Raytheon system should have performance enhancements. ...

I'm sure you meant Northrop Grumman did not bid. In any case the article you referenced stated:

Northrop chose not to bid for future DAS production after deciding that it was no longer an attractive business opportunity, said Kathy Warden, the company’s president and chief operating officer, in an April earnings call.

On Wednesday, Northrop spokesman Brian Humphreys elaborated, saying that the company “applied the same disciplined approach we use when considering all business pursuits and concluded that it wasn’t the right business deal for us.”

This could have been for a variety of reasons up to and including the program was viewed as unexecutable due to either the terms and conditions (schedule, guarantees,etc.), price point, or tech maturity. If NG found the risk not acceptable, I would tend to believe them, as their track record in sidestepping disastrous programs is pretty good lately. It could have been simple timing: the risk in this program may have been acceptable if NG wasn't already stretching their wings elsewhere (B-21, GBSD). Watch for issues regarding cost, schedule or performance, or combination of any of the above to manifest itself down the line.

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 14 Jun 2018, 04:05

What's the latest on the APEX Round??? (PGU-47/U) Is the F-35 still going to get it???

marauder2048 · by **marauder2048** » 14 Jun 2018, 07:25

From Armaments 2018

marauder2048 · by **marauder2048** » 14 Jun 2018, 07:28

continued

weasel1962 · by **weasel1962** » 14 Jun 2018, 07:51

The mainstay of the USAF F-35As is still PGU-48 at least until FY 2019.
No news on the USN qualifying any round beyond the PGU-32.

The Norwegians and likely the Australians are the users of Nammo PGU-47.

hornetfinn · by **hornetfinn** » 14 Jun 2018, 11:56

If Raytheon can make the DAS system 5 times more reliable and have twice the performance while being significantly cheaper to buy and operate, that's really awesome. I think the improved reliability is likely the biggest thing really, even though improved performance is also nice. Of course saving money is great too as it can be spent elsewhere to improve other areas. I wonder if EOTS can be similarly improved (like the planned Advanced EOTS)?