Of DAS, EOTS etc..

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
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cavok

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Unread post04 Oct 2017, 11:24

talkitron wrote:Does the internal, F-35 Advanced EOTS correspond to a particular announced version of the external Sniper targeting pod?

Sniper XR afaik, i may be wrong. (not ATP SE)

No SWIR capability yet???
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cavok

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Unread post04 Oct 2017, 11:26

cavok wrote:
talkitron wrote:Does the internal, F-35 Advanced EOTS correspond to a particular announced version of the external Sniper targeting pod?

Sniper XR afaik, i may be wrong. (not ATP SE). And no laser marker is there?

No SWIR capability yet???
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playloud

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Unread post04 Oct 2017, 14:40

cavok wrote:
talkitron wrote:Does the internal, F-35 Advanced EOTS correspond to a particular announced version of the external Sniper targeting pod?

Sniper XR afaik, i may be wrong. (not ATP SE)

No SWIR capability yet???

"The Advanced EOTS is a further evolution of the EOTS electro-optical targeting system intended for the F-35 Block 4 stealth fighter. Advanced EOTS incorporates a wide range of enhancements and upgrades, including short-wave infrared, high-definition television, an infrared marker and improved image detector resolution. These enhancements increase the F-35s recognition and detection ranges, enabling greater overall targeting performance. Lockheed Martin announced the Advanced EOTS in September 2015."

http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/Ad ... 41002.aspx
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cavok

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Unread post04 Oct 2017, 17:01

playloud wrote:
cavok wrote:
talkitron wrote:Does the internal, F-35 Advanced EOTS correspond to a particular announced version of the external Sniper targeting pod?

Sniper XR afaik, i may be wrong. (not ATP SE)

No SWIR capability yet???

"The Advanced EOTS is a further evolution of the EOTS electro-optical targeting system intended for the F-35 Block 4 stealth fighter. Advanced EOTS incorporates a wide range of enhancements and upgrades, including short-wave infrared, high-definition television, an infrared marker and improved image detector resolution. These enhancements increase the F-35s recognition and detection ranges, enabling greater overall targeting performance. Lockheed Martin announced the Advanced EOTS in September 2015."

http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/Ad ... 41002.aspx


Yes. Block 4. Ty.
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talkitron

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Unread post04 Oct 2017, 17:44

[quote="playloud"
"The Advanced EOTS is a further evolution of the EOTS electro-optical targeting system intended for the F-35 Block 4 stealth fighter. Advanced EOTS incorporates a wide range of enhancements and upgrades, including short-wave infrared, high-definition television, an infrared marker and improved image detector resolution. These enhancements increase the F-35s recognition and detection ranges, enabling greater overall targeting performance. Lockheed Martin announced the Advanced EOTS in September 2015."[/quote]

Thanks playloud. Here is Lockheed's infographic about new features for Sniper, which is very sparse but does mention short-wave infrared.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/d ... raphic.jpg

Some background that helped me sort through internet links: I suspect Sniper ATP and Sniper XR are the same product, just different abbreviations for branding. ATP seems to be part of the name for several pods competing around 2001 for a USAF contract. The term ATP-SE (for sensor enhancement) refers to a USAF competition around 2010. There was a split by with IOC in 2014 for the Sniper ATP-SE.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/p ... ility.html
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Dragon029

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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 05:53

Can we get an AWIN subscriber to expand on this story?

http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/loc ... as-upgrade

Lockheed Picks Raytheon For F-35 DAS Upgrade
Mar 1, 2018 James Drew | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

Raytheon won Lockheed's internal Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture Systems competition over incumbent Northrop Grumman and an alternative bid by L3 Technologies: U.S. Marine Corps

Raytheon has been selected by Lockheed Martin to produce electro-optical distributed aperture systems (EO-DAS) for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, besting incumbent Northrop ...
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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 08:14

I wonder if you can combine DAS with a 360 degree radar using little apertures like those you have on automobile self driving systems. Since DAS already provides angular information, you just need the radar to give you range and you have a weapon quality track on anything wvr 360 degree around the aircraft.

Since you can use das to turn on and cue the beam, you avoid giving away your position with specious emissions.
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element1loop

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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 08:55

citanon wrote:I wonder if you can combine DAS with a 360 degree radar using little apertures like those you have on automobile self driving systems. Since DAS already provides angular information, you just need the radar to give you range and you have a weapon quality track on anything wvr 360 degree around the aircraft.

Since you can use das to turn on and cue the beam, you avoid giving away your position with specious emissions.


Or a .. LIDAR ... ?

\/\/\/\/\/
∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆

Footnote:
There are those who assert single aircraft sensors are more-or-less irrelevant now, it's all out-moded 4th-gen blah-blahs, yet fail to take on board that aggregate netted data is only as good as the quality of the contributions of the indivudual sensors, on individual aircraft. Improve the sensors and their tracking, and you need less data transfer or fusion crunching triangulations to know exactly where something always is. In a world of exploding EM spectrum battles, and EA and cyber unknowns, sensor quality and active ranging of individual sensors, on individual aircraft, will very much matter. They are in fact innate 5th-gen enablers, the better they track, the better 5th-gen systems-of-systems work, the more the fog of war is cleared.

√√√

Excuse me ... I need to go rinse out the heresy.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Dragon029

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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 09:05

citanon wrote:I wonder if you can combine DAS with a 360 degree radar using little apertures like those you have on automobile self driving systems. Since DAS already provides angular information, you just need the radar to give you range and you have a weapon quality track on anything wvr 360 degree around the aircraft.

Since you can use das to turn on and cue the beam, you avoid giving away your position with specious emissions.


Theoretically it'd be possible with the MADL arrays, but as has already been discussed in other threads there's nothing suggested it's been implemented on the F-35 (yet).
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blindpilot

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Unread post02 Mar 2018, 17:17

Dragon029 wrote:
citanon wrote:I wonder if you can combine DAS with a 360 degree radar using little apertures like those you have on automobile self driving systems. Since DAS already provides angular information, you just need the radar to give you range and you have a weapon quality track on anything wvr 360 degree around the aircraft.

Since you can use das to turn on and cue the beam, you avoid giving away your position with specious emissions.


Theoretically it'd be possible with the MADL arrays, but as has already been discussed in other threads there's nothing suggested it's been implemented on the F-35 (yet).


That's certainly true, as well as many options for upgrades, (or for all we know undisclosed EW type capabilities). Most of the F-35 systems are mostly software not hardware (even the radios). Black Boxes have become lines of code. We need to keep in mind however, the continuum of value/risk in stealth platforms with active sensors. The F-117 was basically blind (which bit it in Kosovo). The theory was no emissions made it hard to find, but they found you do need to have some sensors. A Growler with extra pods etc. etc. would (does) have a great view of the spectrum around it, but it also lights up like a lighthouse at sea, and Air Force officers have said they don't want a Growler in the same area with an F-35 deep strike mission. Radars with LPI features (directional/frequency agile) help but if you emit much beyond a short burst, you risk being detected. The advantages of stealth bring their own enhancement to getting the "God's Eye" view of the battle space.

It all boil down to, "do you need it? how often or how critically if rarely?" and "how much does it cost for the value added?" (in $$ and risks) Those answers will likely vary over the next 50 years, as the environment changes.

MHO,
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Unread post04 Mar 2018, 00:29

So we have new EOTS and DAS, which is very exciting in particular if it means increased spatial resolution and reduced latency. Is AESA CNI (or MADL) arrays next? Now that would be a formidable sensor. :wink:
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Unread post04 Mar 2018, 00:47

Dragon029 wrote:Can we get an AWIN subscriber to expand on this story?

http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/loc ... as-upgrade

Lockheed Picks Raytheon For F-35 DAS Upgrade
Mar 1, 2018 James Drew | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

Raytheon won Lockheed's internal Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture Systems competition over incumbent Northrop Grumman and an alternative bid by L3 Technologies: U.S. Marine Corps

Raytheon has been selected by Lockheed Martin to produce electro-optical distributed aperture systems (EO-DAS) for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, besting incumbent Northrop ...

This quote at KeyPubs from 'bring_it_on': https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthr ... sion/page3
"...Lockheed received proposals from several electro-optical imaging firms. Northrop presumably put forward a proposal, but sources say L3 Technologies, Northrop’s key infrared camera supplier for the AAQ-37, also put forward a standalone bid.

It is not clear what got Raytheon’s proposal across the line, since the company has referred all questions about the EO-DAS victory to the prime contractor, Lockheed. Northrop declined to comment publicly, also referring all questions to Lockheed."
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Dragon029

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 08:19

Article is now unlocked:

http://www.aviationweek.com/program-man ... as-upgrade

Lockheed Picks Raytheon For F-35 DAS Upgrade
Mar 1, 2018 James Drew | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

Raytheon has been selected by Lockheed Martin to produce electro-optical distributed aperture systems (EO-DAS) for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, besting incumbent Northrop Grumman.

Northrop is the sole supplier of the infrared AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System, which provides F-35 pilots with 360-deg., spherical situational awareness, including missile launch point detection and target tracking, weapons cueing, and day/night navigation.

Lockheed is under intense pressure to reduce the cost and improve the quality of the Joint Strike Fighter, with F-35 Joint Program Office head Vice Adm. Mat Winter telling reporters this week that the price is not coming down fast enough.

To meet the demands of its government and international customers, Lockheed is shaking up its supply base to meet cost and performance targets, and Northrop appears to be one of the first high-profile casualties. Sources say Lockheed recently concluded an internal competition for alternative EO-DAS suppliers, with Raytheon emerging as the winner.

Lockheed received proposals from several electro-optical imaging firms. Northrop presumably put forward a proposal, but sources say L3 Technologies, Northrop’s key infrared camera supplier for the AAQ-37, also put forward a standalone bid.

It is not clear what got Raytheon’s proposal across the line, since the company has referred all questions about the EO-DAS victory to the prime contractor, Lockheed. Northrop declined to comment publicly, also referring all questions to Lockheed.

Lockheed first revealed that it had identified an alternative supplier during an interview at the Singapore Airshow in early February, but the firm declined to say who.

The company would not confirm the selection of Raytheon or provide an anticipated schedule for the EO-DAS transition, saying it is not ready to share specific information.

“We are constantly looking for ways to reduce costs of the F-35, as well as enhance capability,” a spokesman for the company said in an email. “While we have conducted a competition related to the next iteration of our DAS system, it is premature to discuss specifics.”

Industry sources say the switch to Raytheon’s distributed aperture system is not expected to happen any time soon. Northrop probably will continue supplying the current version of the EO-DAS until about 2023, at which point Raytheon will be cut into the production process.

Whatever Raytheon has proposed will need to be flight tested and qualified to ensure it meets all of the F-35’s mission requirements. Each F-35 is equipped with six EO-DAS infrared cameras, which allow the pilot to see through the skin of the airframe by digitally stitching the video feeds together.

Lockheed already has delivered more than 265 F-35s to the U.S. government and international customers, and that number will grow to about 900 by 2022 based on the current production ramp. To date, Northrop has supplied well more than 2,000 DAS cameras.

The fifth-generation fighter platform is at the tail end of its development program and is about to head into operational testing in the Block 3F configuration. Going forward, Lockheed will update the F-35 through what is being called the Continuous Capability Development and Delivery, or C2D2, program.

Editor's note: This story has been updated to include a statement from Lockheed Martin.
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 11:27

So this means that the current DAS built by Northrop Grumman will soon be "replaced" by a new DAS system built by Raytheon?

And speaking of DAS, I still can't understand why are you (or apparently most of you) assuming that DAS "alone" cannot range to target.
Most high quality IR sensor can range to target without the need to secondary sources such as Lasers, Radars, etc... For example the Apache TADS can range to target without using the Laser Designator/Rangefinder. But is the TADS ranging precision as good when compared to using a Laser Designator/Rangefinder? Of course not.

And the same I strongly believe, also applies to DAS.
Is DAS "lone" ranging precision as good when compared to using the Radar, Laser (EOTS) or a combination of DAS tracks shared thru MADL? Of course not!
But then again, this doesn't mean that DAS cannot come up range solution by itself (although and again, less precise).
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element1loop

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 12:07

ricnunes wrote:So this means that the current DAS built by Northrop Grumman will soon be "replaced" by a new DAS system built by Raytheon?

And speaking of DAS, I still can't understand why are you (or apparently most of you) assuming that DAS "alone" cannot range to target.
Most high quality IR sensor can range to target without the need to secondary sources such as Lasers, Radars, etc... For example the Apache TADS can range to target without using the Laser Designator/Rangefinder. But is the TADS ranging precision as good when compared to using a Laser Designator/Rangefinder? Of course not.

And the same I strongly believe, also applies to DAS.
Is DAS "lone" ranging precision as good when compared to using the Radar, Laser (EOTS) or a combination of DAS tracks shared thru MADL? Of course not!
But then again, this doesn't mean that DAS cannot come up range solution by itself (although and again, less precise).


ric, I don't remember dragon or anyone else asserting a single DAS, or a single IR sensor, could not produce a dynamic range estimate, but with accuracy, not precision.

Electing to forgo single-sensor precision ranging, in DAS, seems a far-fetched proposition to me, when it is entirely achievable and simplifies much data sharing and number crunching, and provides for a far more graceful drop in capabiliy, in the event EA and cyber are more or less effective, in battle, at attriting Data-Power.

Not going to speculate what the new DAS version will bring. But I hope it includes single-sensor precision ranging.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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