Of DAS, EOTS etc..

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
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gideonic

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 12:26

Considering how far the wingmen are in a F-35 4-ship formation, I can't see why one cannot just use multiple aircraft to passively range enemies.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 12:34

I'd say this new EO DAS probably includes mostly sensor upgrade with software (which actually does most of the work) being pretty much the same. Of course it will have to be changed to take into account likely differences in sensor specs and any possible new features it might allow. This is the beauty of having most things done with software, although it's probably not just trivial change from one supplier to another.

I see it will likely be higher resolution sensor for increased range and fidelity. Of course it might also have very similar performance to current one but with improved maintenance specs and lower lifetime costs. That would be very good too in service, although not very sexy for tech geeks like me... :wink:
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element1loop

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 13:33

gideonic wrote:Considering how far the wingmen are in a F-35 4-ship formation, I can't see why one cannot just use multiple aircraft to passively range enemies.


THIS:

"... and simplifies much data sharing and number crunching, and provides for a far more graceful drop in capabiliy, in the event EA and cyber are more or less effective, in battle, at attriting Data-Power. ... "

You wan't to put all your eggs in the network basket? And hope the network is not degraded or data flow tacticaly constricted or slowed?

Seems like a really bad idea to me. Tactical digital stovepiping.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial-Dist = LIFE
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 15:28

gideonic wrote:Considering how far the wingmen are in a F-35 4-ship formation, I can't see why one cannot just use multiple aircraft to passively range enemies.


Well I believe that we all agree that capability exists even because this seems to be confirmed by "official sources".

The situation with DAS being able to estimate the range to target (alone) would be for worse case scenarios like for example element1loop mentioned with the network being for some unforeseen reason, degraded or also for some unforeseen reason a (single) F-35 ends up being alone.
I would say that anyone should prepare to unforeseen reason even if they are unlikely to happen.

If you look at the business world, almost every computer/IT/Software system is networked however the majority of these system do and will still work even if for some reason the network goes down. In the military world such capability (working alone when the network is "down") is definitely a must/mandatory!
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blindpilot

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Unread post06 Mar 2018, 19:31

element1loop wrote:...
"... and simplifies much data sharing and number crunching, and provides for a far more graceful drop in capability,[sic] in the event EA and cyber are more or less effective, in battle, at attriting Data-Power. ... "

You wan't to put all your eggs in the network basket? And hope the network is not degraded or data flow tacticaly constricted or slowed?

Seems like a really bad idea to me. Tactical digital stovepiping.


This is certainly true in hub and spoke, critical point of failure type of systems. Here the adversary simply targets weak links in the kill chain.

What the F-35 (and other 5th gen nodes) brings to the table is a mesh network, like a fishing net, where there is no there there, at the individual knots of the net. But if a hole is punched it still functions to catch all the fish, though perhaps with some "leakage" where the failure is.

Now the F-35 takes this mesh view a step further. It empowers the node (a single aircraft) to connect and rebuild its own net environment as links are denied. It acts like a net, but when a hole is punched ... there is also a "there there." There is no stove piping, digital or otherwise. Think the Stargate replicators. That's the fifth gen goal. It's tough to find a spot to shoot at when there really isn't a kill chain.

An example might be in the deployment of the Bee by the Marines. An enemy can use long range capabilities to attack Air Refueling, AWACS, carriers, runways, bases, ... hoping to break the kill chain. But the Marine unit is a "collections of ants."

It moves the V-22 austere field package off of the "about to be sunk" LHD, changing it's support base to an ESB or LSD or ... and sets up a refueling/rearming station in a forest, on a deserted island, with a couple of F-35s that didn't make it back because the tanker went down. It spawns a mini air base in the middle of no where. And the rest of the Marine unit does that all over the battle space. The F-35 refueling hot on the ground gets battlefield data from the airborne F-35 that is as good as the AWACS, that was shot down. The challenge becomes a "Whack-a-Mole" game for the adversary.

That is not a stove pipe.

MHO,
BP
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doge

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Unread post17 Apr 2018, 16:52

Air-to-air with EOTS! :D
https://www.themaven.net/warriormaven/a ... zUEtD15sQ/
F-35 Air-to-Air Missiles Hit 2 Drones at Once in Test - Fighter Enters New Era
by Warrior Maven 11 hrs -edited
F-35 used sensors, on-board computers and targeting systems to find, track and destroy two airborne drones at once
F-35 Mini-Series Part I
By Kris Osborn

When a single F-35 used sensors, on-board computers and targeting systems to find, track and destroy two airborne drones at the same time with air-to-air missiles, the emerging 5th Gen fighter transitioned into a new era for offensive attack missions.

An F-35 pilot fired two Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles at maneuvering drones in the air, brining synchronized attack to a new level for the aircraft, using an integrated targeting sensor, called the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS).

“Two AMRAAMs had multiple targets - to shoot two airborne targets simultaneously. It was a complex set up that happened over the Pacific. They were shooting at drones,” Lt. Col. Tucker Hamilton, F-35 Test Director, Edwards AFB, told reporters.
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blindpilot

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Unread post17 Apr 2018, 21:10

doge wrote:Air-to-air with EOTS! :D
https://www.themaven.net/warriormaven/a ... zUEtD15sQ/
F-35 Air-to-Air Missiles Hit 2 Drones at Once in Test - Fighter Enters New Era
by Warrior Maven 11 hrs -edited
F-35 Mini-Series Part I
By Kris Osborn
When a single F-35 used sensors, on-board computers and targeting systems to find, track and destroy two airborne drones at the same time with air-to-air missiles, the emerging 5th Gen fighter transitioned into a new era for offensive attack missions...

While actually quite amazing, it gets even better if you think about it. The pilot of the test F-35, if in a real world battlespace ... wouldn't even know that the targeting data came from his EOTS! ... It's all fused virtuality. He never set his system to "search mode." He didn't "switch over to his EOTS" for fine targeting. He didn't "Program the missiles" for their specific assignment. He didn't do anything except see the battlespace, select an action, and "let it happen."

Yes the sensors and weapons are quite impressive, but what happens in a fused SA battlespace is more than just that. There is no reason you can't identify (see in the battlespace SA presentation) all targets, make available (arm) all weapons, and manage the battle from that same God's eye view of everything else. "Targeting" and "shooting" two targets at the same time is trivial in that context ... amazing as it is on its own.

MHO,
BP
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steve2267

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 16:41

Magazine depth may become an issue. SACM (CUDA) can't get hear fast enough.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 16:50

Thinking about this concept of the system engaging / deploying / guiding munitions onto targets...

I'd hate to see a ton of $$$ flushed down a rabbit hole if the technology is not there, but given the demonstration Sandia Nat'l Labs conducted whereby they "guided" or "steered" a .50 caliber round onto a target, if a reliable and economical 25mm "smart" shell could be developed whereby it could be guided onto a target within a certain target area or volume, most probably via laser, then I could see a case where the F-35, with pilot's permission, fires a burst, of say 5 shells, which could be guided onto a ground target either via EOTS or a drone in the area or a FAC on the ground. Or a burst of 15 shells could be fired into a volume of space to be guided onto enema drone(s) in the area with EOTS (or EOTS from another F-35). In these scenarios, an optional bursting fuze would be handy.

The possibilities for some really precise direct fires CAS would be enormous.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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cheese_e

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 18:30

doge wrote:Air-to-air with EOTS! :D
https://www.themaven.net/warriormaven/a ... zUEtD15sQ/
F-35 Air-to-Air Missiles Hit 2 Drones at Once in Test - Fighter Enters New Era
by Warrior Maven 11 hrs -edited
F-35 used sensors, on-board computers and targeting systems to find, track and destroy two airborne drones at once
F-35 Mini-Series Part I
By Kris Osborn

When a single F-35 used sensors, on-board computers and targeting systems to find, track and destroy two airborne drones at the same time with air-to-air missiles, the emerging 5th Gen fighter transitioned into a new era for offensive attack missions.

An F-35 pilot fired two Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles at maneuvering drones in the air, brining synchronized attack to a new level for the aircraft, using an integrated targeting sensor, called the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS).

“Two AMRAAMs had multiple targets - to shoot two airborne targets simultaneously. It was a complex set up that happened over the Pacific. They were shooting at drones,” Lt. Col. Tucker Hamilton, F-35 Test Director, Edwards AFB, told reporters.


There are some false statements in that article, and it appears some quotes were taken out of cotext and used to make some assumptions that are not true.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 18:35

And those "false" and "out of context" statements would be?
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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wrightwing

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 18:41

cheese_e wrote:
doge wrote:Air-to-air with EOTS! :D
https://www.themaven.net/warriormaven/a ... zUEtD15sQ/
F-35 Air-to-Air Missiles Hit 2 Drones at Once in Test - Fighter Enters New Era
by Warrior Maven 11 hrs -edited
F-35 used sensors, on-board computers and targeting systems to find, track and destroy two airborne drones at once
F-35 Mini-Series Part I
By Kris Osborn

When a single F-35 used sensors, on-board computers and targeting systems to find, track and destroy two airborne drones at the same time with air-to-air missiles, the emerging 5th Gen fighter transitioned into a new era for offensive attack missions.

An F-35 pilot fired two Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles at maneuvering drones in the air, brining synchronized attack to a new level for the aircraft, using an integrated targeting sensor, called the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS).

“Two AMRAAMs had multiple targets - to shoot two airborne targets simultaneously. It was a complex set up that happened over the Pacific. They were shooting at drones,” Lt. Col. Tucker Hamilton, F-35 Test Director, Edwards AFB, told reporters.


There are some false statements in that article, and it appears some quotes were taken out of cotext and used to make some assumptions that are not true.


Thrill us with your acumen, Clarice.
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cheese_e

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 18:54

There is no evidence to suggest that EOTS was used to cue AMRAAMs. And just because drones were shot at does not mean that they were destroyed.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 19:02

cheese_e wrote:There is no evidence to suggest that EOTS was used to cue AMRAAMs

um, did you miss this?

An F-35 pilot fired two Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles at maneuvering drones in the air ... using an integrated targeting sensor, called the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS).


cheese_e wrote: just because drones were shot at does not mean that they were destroyed.


You missed this too?

track and destroy two airborne drones at the same time with air-to-air missiles
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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wrightwing

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Unread post18 Apr 2018, 19:32

We'll wait patiently, while you provide contrary evidence.
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