Of DAS, EOTS etc..

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
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mixelflick

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Unread post02 Oct 2014, 21:57

These seem to be revolutionary, and so far unique to the F-35.

Is anyone aware of another country that plans to introduce something similar? Keep wondering if this is something the Chinese stole. If so, that'd be a shame. Then again, mass producing it is another matter. The stealth is one thing, but I'd argue the SA the F-35 brings to the table is its main advantage.

Other countries will get there on stealth, but I see no such attempt at DAS/EOTS etc on PAK-FA, J-20 etc.
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eskodas

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Unread post02 Oct 2014, 22:03

The EOTS is only revolutionary in that it combines an IRST with a FLIR for enhanced imaging and dual Air to Ground and Air to Air use. The DAS is already built into the F-22 in a lesser manner in the form of the AAR-56 Missile Launch Detection system. As with most aircraft engineering it's very rarely anything revolutionary but evolutionary, building upon and expanding previous systems.

As to other countries, these systems are very expensive, other nations are much cheaper with their development.
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popcorn

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Unread post03 Oct 2014, 01:11

Software will likely be the bigger challenge.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post03 Oct 2014, 11:04

There are several issues for China or Russia to copy DAS and EOTS capabilities.

First, neither currently has nearly the capability to produce the sensors themselves as neither has the required production capabilities. Currently only USA can produce that kind of sensors. Only France, Germany, UK, South Korea and Japan have capabilities to develop such sensors in the near future (within 5-10 years) if they find the need. China is well behind all of those countries in developing IR sensors and Russia is even further away. I see China being able to produce similar sensors within 10-20 years or so and Russia maybe 10 years after that. Current Russian products are about as advanced as what was available 20-30 years ago in western countries.

Second is the computing capability to handle the massive amount of data coming from such sensors. This requires modern signal processing capabilities and in that field USA is the clear leader with European and Japanese companies following. China and Russia do not produce advanced signal processors or even general purpose CPUs and what they have is produced by foreign companies.

Third is the networking capability to transfer the data around the aircraft from sensors to processing systems to cockpit. This sounds easy, but is far from it for a military aircraft, especially high performance. Russia has just started to use the ancient MIL-STD-1553B databuses and does not have a fighter aircraft in latest MiGs and Sukhois. Most Russian and Chinese aircraft still use the commercial ARINC 429 and do not have any kind of high speed data transfer capabilities.

Fourth is the software required to make things work. It takes a lot of software to do that and it takes a lot of resources to develop working software. This means high costs and quite long development times. I doubt there are many countries that can introduce anything remotely as capable.
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popcorn

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Unread post03 Oct 2014, 16:16

The sensors are a convenient feature to focus upon but the more meaningful comparison IMO, would be the scope and sophistication of the sensor fusion they are able to deliver, integrating the elements hornetfinn identified. The more capable the fusion engine, the shorter the pilot's OODA Loop meaning he can make smarter decisions faster.
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Unread post16 Oct 2014, 06:39

I see the PAK-FA has some of this capability with the front facing Aesa and the two small side looking and the rear AESA and the L-band on the wings, that's a lot of radar that can gather a lot of data. The F-35 is unique with both of the IR technologies. The EOTS will give the US its first decent forward looking IRST since the F-14 while at the same time be a great ground targeting system. But DAS acts as a IRST just 360 degrees as well, it did detect a ballistic missile launch from 800nmi's away something tells me it can prob see a hot two engine fighter from 30nmi if not more dependent on conditions. The IRST capabilities on the F-35 are unmatched and will deliver insane amounts of data to the pilot and flight computers to keep that aircraft alive an give it major offensive capabilities. As I started off with the PAK-FA is the only other fighter I have seen trying to give there pilots this much SitAwarness, but its using radar and will prob have less computing capabilities and a less effective way to deliver all the information it is able to grab to the pilot, also radar can be jammed (especially those L-bands on the wings, but me thinks those are more ECM then SitAwar). The F-22's pilot have raved on about all the situational awareness they have coming from there jets using software/hardware that was designed almost 20 years ago, imagine how the F-35 pilots will feel, more information and a better system(s) to deliver it to them and share with friends (sharing is caring).
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hornetfinn

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Unread post16 Oct 2014, 11:01

I think you can forger the L-band system in the wings of PAK FA as it's definitely not a good set up for a radar system and IMO very unlikely to ever be used as one. With that set up it's impossible to get target height and would give only rather rough directional data. That is most likely just an IFF system with maybe some potential capability to be used in EW and communication. I think PAK FA SA will be about as good as in latest Rafales, EF Typhoons or Super Hornets with some twist due to those small side looking antennas (if they actually use them in operational aircraft). I seriously doubt they have the ability to compete with the systems in F-35 or F-22.
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zero-one

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Unread post16 Oct 2014, 12:31

The PAK-FA and the KF-X and the ATD-X programs seem to have proposals (artist impressions) having a closed rear canopy design.

This could either mean that they will have terrible rearward visibility or will have a DAS like system for rearward visibility.

Just like everything else, I think competitors will be able to catch up, how long it takes for them to catch up is anyone's guess

However it also depends on how effective the tech will be.

Remember, during the late 60s - early 70s

Variable Geometry was such a hot new design breakthrough and many planes started appearing with it, the F-14, F-111, Mig-23, B-1, Tu-160 and Tornado all had it and we expected that soon, most countries would follow.

However Engineers quickly found more effective wing designs that did not have the draw backs of Variable Geometry.


Today Thrust Vectoring seems to take that spot, and the ATF, PAK-FA and ATD-X programs all employ it and are optional for many Russian 4th gen fighter upgrades, even the Typhoon seems to be looking into TV options as well.

Stealth is another, to a greater degree.

Not sure if 6th gens will have it, but if the Navy's requirement of having the F/A-XX "surpass all current fighters in Kinematics" is any indication, then it might also employ TV.

However this does not only apply to aircraft designs.

Sensors may also follow a similar trend. Remember how PESA radar was supposed to be the newest trend in fighter radars?

However just a few years later Japan installed AESA on the F-2, suddenly PESA looked so yesterday

Right now DAS seems like the new hottest sensor system out there but if someone quickly finds a better more efficient system then it could be out of the trend very soon also.


Remember DAS is a series of sensors that collect info around the aircraft it doesn't necessarily have to be an IR sensor
The F-22 has an RF based DAS system

Just off the top of my head
if some one could build a single AESA sphere antenna that sent signals to all directions and covered the entire aircraft spherically, then it could give some competition to DAS.

Basically my point is, some designs seem to hold a lot of promise but very quickly becomes obsolete (i.e. Variable Geometry wings, PESA, Mach 3+ capability, Long range air-air missiles,)

while others stay with us for a very long time (i.e. Relaxed static stability, Turbofan engines, Stealth, AESA)

Right now its too early to tell if DAS systems will be the former or the latter.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post16 Oct 2014, 13:48

zero-one wrote:Remember DAS is a series of sensors that collect info around the aircraft it doesn't necessarily have to be an IR sensor
The F-22 has an RF based DAS system


No, F-22 does not really have DAS system at all. Of course it has AN/AAR-56 missile launch detector which has similar (but most likely less capable) IR sensors (not RF) to DAS but does not have the processing systems or required integration to other aircraft systems. It's thus now much more limited system than DAS is and can not provide nearly similar SA to the pilot.
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zero-one

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Unread post16 Oct 2014, 14:02

hornetfinn wrote:
No, F-22 does not really have DAS system at all. Of course it has AN/AAR-56 missile launch detector which has similar (but most likely less capable) IR sensors (not RF) to DAS but does not have the processing systems or required integration to other aircraft systems. It's thus now much more limited system than DAS is and can not provide nearly similar SA to the pilot.


Well actually the F-22 has the AN/ALR-94 which is a series of 30 or so apertures for antennas spotted around the airframe.

Before the F-35's AN/AAQ-37 became synonymous with DAS, the F-22s system was called "DAS" by some respectable aerospace figures.

I believe the History channel's last episode of Dogfights (Secrets of the Dogfights of the future) termed the ALR-94 as DAS.

If you think about it, they are apertures, and they are Distributed, and they are a system. So why not.

They are not on the same level as the AAQ-37 but still DAS none the less
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Unread post16 Oct 2014, 15:50

Perhaps some better IRST on the way - whenever?
Air Force mulls staring infrared search and track for combat aircraft
15 Oct 2014 John Keller

"WRIGHT-PATTERSON AFB, Ohio-U.S. Air Force electro-optics researchers are reaching out to industry for ideas and enabling technologies for a next-generation infrared search-and-track (IRST) system to provide advanced passive surveillance, tracking, and target-acquisition capability for military combat aircraft.

Officials of the Air Force Research Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, have issued a sources-sought notice (RFI-RQKS-2014-0001) for the Infrared Search and Track Technologies program, which seeks to determine the feasibility of developing a next-generation airborne, long-range offensive IRST.

Air Force researchers are interested in a new kind of IRST that is a staring sensor, rather than a scanned system, based on combinations of innovative optical design, high dynamic range infrared large format focal plane array (FPA) technology, and advanced processing methods....

...This exploratory concept is fundamentally different from current IRST implementations that use scanned and smaller-format infrared focal plane arrays for detection and tracking of enemy aircraft and missiles, researchers explain.

An IRST with a staring rather than a scanning sensor will yield higher performance in a more compact, lighter-weight design with greater installation flexibility, Air Force researchers say.

Advancements in large-format, two-dimensional infrared focal plane arrays offer potential advantages in clutter rejection, more frequent updates, longer integration times, and multi-frame detection techniques.

These advantages could yield an advanced IRST for military combat aircraft that supports long-range detection and tracking of targets in cluttered environments with a low false alarm rate over a large field-of-view (FOV), researchers say....

...The Air Force would like to hear from companies that could provide advanced IRST enabling technologies as part of assessment of industry's ability to provide component and system-level technologies for a next-generation airborne IRST.

Key considerations include wave-band selection; single-band longwave vs. medium-wave infrared sensors; dual-band longwave and medium-wave infrared sensors; sensitivity; dynamic range; frame rate; integration time; resolution; operability; readout design trades; wide-field optical design for large format arrays; opto-mechanical design; stabilization; real-time algorithms and processing; processing techniques; clutter rejection methods; target detection and track algorithms; clear sky; sky clutter; and look down into heavy clutter...."

Source: http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... craft.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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hornetfinn

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Unread post17 Oct 2014, 13:55

zero-one wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
No, F-22 does not really have DAS system at all. Of course it has AN/AAR-56 missile launch detector which has similar (but most likely less capable) IR sensors (not RF) to DAS but does not have the processing systems or required integration to other aircraft systems. It's thus now much more limited system than DAS is and can not provide nearly similar SA to the pilot.


Well actually the F-22 has the AN/ALR-94 which is a series of 30 or so apertures for antennas spotted around the airframe.

Before the F-35's AN/AAQ-37 became synonymous with DAS, the F-22s system was called "DAS" by some respectable aerospace figures.

I believe the History channel's last episode of Dogfights (Secrets of the Dogfights of the future) termed the ALR-94 as DAS.

If you think about it, they are apertures, and they are Distributed, and they are a system. So why not.

They are not on the same level as the AAQ-37 but still DAS none the less


Ok, that is true. Of course passive RF system can not give nearly as good resolution and does not work well with non-emitting targets but it has its own good features. I think both IR and passive RF SA systems will be used in the future as they offer quite different and complementing capabilities.
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Unread post17 Oct 2014, 22:29

hornetfinn wrote:
No, F-22 does not really have DAS system at all. Of course it has AN/AAR-56 missile launch detector which has similar (but most likely less capable) IR sensors (not RF) to DAS but does not have the processing systems or required integration to other aircraft systems. It's thus now much more limited system than DAS is and can not provide nearly similar SA to the pilot.


That is correct.

And, generally, AAR-56 is to F-22 what AAR-37 is to F-35; ALR-94 is to F-22 what ASQ-239 is to F-35.
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Unread post17 Oct 2014, 22:30

"I think both IR and passive RF SA systems will be used in the future as they offer quite different and complementing capabilities."

The future you suggest is now.
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Unread post19 Oct 2014, 01:37

I believe the Chinese plans to incorporate an EOTS system onboard the J-20.

Image

As for DAS, there are rumors and pictures of possible DAS cameras in development by the Chinese.

How well these stack up to the F-35 is to be seen.
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