F-35 & AEGIS Launch/Engage on Remote

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
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spazsinbad

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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 21:38

Navy Battles Cyber Threats: Thumb Drives, Wireless Hacking, & China By Sydney J. Freedberg Jr. 04 Apr 2013
"...the standard and targeting system for Navy ships since 1973 is something called Aegis, while the standard data exchange system for both US and NATO aircraft is Link-16. "Aegis can receive Link-16 but they can't transmit on it," Leigher said. "It's the product of all of this growing up in different communities over time; I'm not sure this is how we would do it if we started today."

So today, the Navy is developing a sometimes bewildering array of interconnecting systems to transmit targeting information: Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC), Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT), and Naval Integrated Fire Control - Counter-Air (NIFC-CA).

Originally, an Aegis ship would find enemy missiles and aircraft with its own onboard radar, then shoot them down with its own onboard weapons. Increasingly, that Aegis system can take incoming data from offboard sources -- from other ships, Navy E-2D Advanced Hawkeye radar planes, Army JLENS surveillance blimps, and in the future from Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force F-35 Joint Strike Fighters -- and fire at targets the ship's own radar can't yet see. The Navy is currently testing what's called "launch on remote," where the Aegis ship uses the offboard data to launch a missile towards the target but still relies on its own radar to lock on for the final approach and kill. The next step, though, will be "engage on remote," where the missile relies entirely on offboard data and the firing ship's own radar never sees the target at all.

The Navy's pursued such an interconnected targeting network for years, said Leigher, "now we have really well constructed networks, powerful data links, and waveforms to move a lot of information, this 'cooperative engagement capability' has become real."..."

http://defense.aol.com/2013/04/04/navy- ... ?icid=apb1#page1 [excerpt above is from pages 3 & 4]
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count_to_10

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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 23:25

Maniacal laugh, maniacal laugh. :twisted:
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 12:19

count_to_10 wrote:Maniacal laugh, maniacal laugh. :twisted:


Hoora, an F35 with a 128 cell VLS with SM6 :) That'd be dangerous.
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maus92

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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 15:33

Acting as a forward sensor is not a capability exclusive to F-35s, and in any case, the pilot is not commanding an IAMD launch. As the article says, E-2Ds and JLENS can also provide targeting data, but conveniently left out F/A-18E/F which will field the capability before F-35 is operational. Forget the idea that F-35 will be a stealthy sensor. Targeting data is transmitted via Link-16, later probably satcom. AOL Defense's Board of Contributors strikes again.
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neptune

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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 16:44

maus92 wrote:Acting as a forward sensor is not a capability exclusive to F-35s, and in any case, the pilot is not commanding an IAMD launch. As the article says, E-2Ds and JLENS can also provide targeting data, but conveniently left out F/A-18E/F which will field the capability before F-35 is operational. Forget the idea that F-35 will be a stealthy sensor. Targeting data is transmitted via Link-16, later probably satcom. AOL Defense's Board of Contributors strikes again.


It should be interesting to see the stealth platform at 35K feet tasking an Aegis SM with Link16 and re-tasking with MADL. All navy a/c may be able to task the Aegis but only the Aesa can re-task the SM. It will be nice that the SBug can initially develop the tactic and the F-35 can enhance it. Working together as a team will make the F-35, SBug and Growler a deadly opponent for aggressors to the CVBG. :)
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archeman

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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 17:58

maus92 wrote:Acting as a forward sensor is not a capability exclusive to F-35s, and in any case, the pilot is not commanding an IAMD launch. As the article says, E-2Ds and JLENS can also provide targeting data, but conveniently left out F/A-18E/F which will field the capability before F-35 is operational. Forget the idea that F-35 will be a stealthy sensor. Targeting data is transmitted via Link-16, later probably satcom. AOL Defense's Board of Contributors strikes again.


If it were MY fleet of F-35s I wouldn't do it that way.
It would be a better idea for a 'deep' penetrating F-35 to quetly relay the target data to another F-35 further out of harms way, THEN relay via Link-16 to the E-2Ds/surface fleet.
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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 18:59

maus92 wrote:Acting as a forward sensor is not a capability exclusive to F-35s, and in any case, the pilot is not commanding an IAMD launch. As the article says, E-2Ds and JLENS can also provide targeting data, but conveniently left out F/A-18E/F which will field the capability before F-35 is operational. Forget the idea that F-35 will be a stealthy sensor. Targeting data is transmitted via Link-16, later probably satcom. AOL Defense's Board of Contributors strikes again.
Nope.

The F-35 will be transmitting targeting data via MADL or SATCOM so it can remain "stealthy" the whole time.
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maus92

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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 19:07

neptune wrote:
maus92 wrote:Acting as a forward sensor is not a capability exclusive to F-35s, and in any case, the pilot is not commanding an IAMD launch. As the article says, E-2Ds and JLENS can also provide targeting data, but conveniently left out F/A-18E/F which will field the capability before F-35 is operational. Forget the idea that F-35 will be a stealthy sensor. Targeting data is transmitted via Link-16, later probably satcom. AOL Defense's Board of Contributors strikes again.


It should be interesting to see the stealth platform at 35K feet tasking an Aegis SM with Link16 and re-tasking with MADL. All navy a/c may be able to task the Aegis but only the Aesa can re-task the SM. It will be nice that the SBug can initially develop the tactic and the F-35 can enhance it. Working together as a team will make the F-35, SBug and Growler a deadly opponent for aggressors to the CVBG. :)


I agree on the teamwork involved. The kill chain relies on E-2D acting as the gateway to the AEGIS platform, processing data from various onboard and off board sensors. After a SM-6 is launched, E-2D can update SM-6 inflight - AESA is not a requirement, the appropriate datalink/waveform is. The terminal guidance phase is handled by the missile seeker, which is based on AIM-120. What is important to understand is the pilot of the sensing aircraft is not going to command a SM-6 missile launch - that would be the responsibility of the AAW officer. That officer however, could command the firing of an aircraft's AIM-120 if it was the best weapon available - how well that would go over with the pilot, IDK :) - but it has an obvious implication with a UCLASS vehicle. Another interesting issue is where the future AAW officer might be located. I'm almost positive the ship drivers would want him/her onboard one of the Aegis vessels, however the position could be filled by a seat in the E-2D or a E/F/A-18F/G, or in a Ford class CVN CIC.
Last edited by maus92 on 05 Apr 2013, 19:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 19:15

SpudmanWP wrote:
maus92 wrote:Acting as a forward sensor is not a capability exclusive to F-35s, and in any case, the pilot is not commanding an IAMD launch. As the article says, E-2Ds and JLENS can also provide targeting data, but conveniently left out F/A-18E/F which will field the capability before F-35 is operational. Forget the idea that F-35 will be a stealthy sensor. Targeting data is transmitted via Link-16, later probably satcom. AOL Defense's Board of Contributors strikes again.
Nope.

The F-35 will be transmitting targeting data via MADL or SATCOM so it can remain "stealthy" the whole time.


MADL implies a BACN (or equiv.), which would be an additional platform (and point of failure) the Navy doesn't have yet. Daisy chaining MADL between F-35s requires unreliable coordination (another point of failure.) SATCOM would be more universal, newer SH have them, not sure what block the F-35 gets it.

A solution might be installing MADL on E-2Ds. Not sure of MADLs range however.
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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 19:16

'maus92': With all the computer mind meld COSMIC tech in the F-35 why cannot the F-35 pilot (trained) be the AAW (If'n as you suggest that AAW can be in the EFnA18FG)?
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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 19:20

spazsinbad wrote:'maus92': With all the computer mind meld COSMIC tech in the F-35 why cannot the F-35 pilot (trained) be the AAW (If'n as you suggest that AAW can be in the EFnA18FG)?


Workload.
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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 19:32

Ha. That is what all the computer technology is for. Sensor Fusion - which can be shared with other F-35s as pointed out already by 'archeman' for example. I would have thought the chaps in the tandem seat aircraft would be under pressure doing all that mental arithmetic.
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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 19:52

Sensor fusion. Of course. The panacea.
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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 19:57

maus92 wrote:MADL implies a BACN (or equiv.), which would be an additional platform (and point of failure) the Navy doesn't have yet.

Daisy chaining MADL between F-35s requires unreliable coordination (another point of failure.) SATCOM would be more universal, newer SH have them, not sure what block the F-35 gets it.
That is not the plan. The plan is to have both Ship based and E-2 based MADL transceivers.

The USAF and USN are developing a system called ATDL that will include MADL as one of it’s waveforms.

Image

They also plan on using F-35s outside the AO to relay data either using MADL or Link-16

Image
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Unread post05 Apr 2013, 20:21

maus92 wrote:Sensor fusion. Of course. The panacea.


YEP. Always better than mental arithmetic under pressure. And I see SWP has cleared up some issues also.
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