F-35B for USN???

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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 04:40

["quicksilver"]

Really? Name them for us.

‘New role’ as mini carrier? Not a new idea nor commitment — see previous posts re: ROOSEVELT, NASSAU, BATAAN, BHR And others.[/quote]

Sorry, while the USN has used Harriers in large number in the past on LHD's as a Mini Carriers. Like in the Gulf Wars...Those just supported MEU's going ashore. Today what the USN/USMC are planning is very different. To use the New F-35B's combined with the LHA/LHD as a Mini Carrier. Yet, not to support MEU's only but to replace the CVN's (Nuclear Aircraft Carriers) when not available...and in Blue Water Operations! THIS IS TOTALLY NEW...

"F-35B Allowed Essex ARG to Flex New Blue-Water Capabilities in Absence of Carrier Nearby"

ARLINGTON, Virginia – The F-35B Joint Strike Fighter is not only changing the way Marine forces conduct their missions, it is also changing the way the amphibious navy can do its work in the absence of an aircraft carrier, leaders from the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit and Essex Amphibious Ready Group said.

The Essex ARG and 13th MEU were the first to deploy from the United States with the F-35B, and they operated in the Pacific and Middle East from mid-July until their March 1 return home to San Diego. The deployment not only generated lessons learned on how to operate and sustain the F-35B jets as part of the Marine unit and in support of its objectives ashore, but also how to use the new jet to support blue-water Navy missions at sea.

https://news.usni.org/2019/04/16/f-35b- ... ier-nearby

Japan? Help us with the details on that.


USMC to Fly First F-35B from Japan’s Izumo-class Aircraft Carriers

U.S. Marine Corps' F-35B STOVL fighters will be the first fixed wing aircraft to fly from Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Izumo-class "helicopter destroyers", following the conversion of both JS Izumo and JS Kaga into aircraft carriers.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -carriers/

Marines Considering Flying U.S. F-35Bs Off of Japan’s Largest Warships

In March, the Abe government asked then-Marine commandant Gen. Robert Neller if the U.S. would consider deploying Marine F-35Bs from Izumo and Kaga, reported The Asahi Shimbun earlier this week.

Prompted by the request, the Marines are now standing up groups to determine the technical feasibility of deploying U.S. F-35s from the two ships ahead of the Japanese Self-Defense Force F-35Bs being fielded.

https://news.usni.org/2019/08/23/marine ... t-warships

Also........

UK, US Enter New Era: ‘Unprecedented’ Carrier-Sharing Plan

“We’re not talking about interoperability anymore, we’re talking about proper integration to a level we’ve never seen,”
Fleet Commander Vice Adm. Jerry Kyd told me on the deck of the UK's new carrier.



ABOARD HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH: For the first time, a US Marine Corps F-35B squadron will deploy aboard the UKs new aircraft carrier on its maiden voyage in 2021, a milestone hailed as “unprecedented” — even among close allies.

“We’re not talking about interoperability anymore; we’re talking about proper integration to a level we’ve never seen,” British Fleet Commander Vice Adm. Jerry Kyd told me on the deck of the carrier as it launched and recovered aircraft during an exercise in the Atlantic.

The integration of Marines into the British carrier’s operations from Day One is “unprecedented,” he said. “It would be hard to think of another two countries on the planet who can do that right now.”

As Kyd and fellow Royal Navy officers praised the “special relationship” between Washington and London during a recent visit to the ship, the US Navy’s top admiral was half a world away, using much the same language to pitch his own ideas for closer linkages between allied navies.


Kyd, who commanded the Queen Elizabeth last fall when she ran weeks of trials off the US east Coast, is now responsible for overseeing all operational elements of the Royal Navy. Last year’s deployment saw the Brits flying US-based F-35s, but just this past week Royal Navy pilots began flying their own F-35Bs from the ship, becoming the first non-US pilots to own and fly carrier-based Joint Strike Fighters.

“We are learning how to fight a carrier strike group beyond the jets for the first time,” Commodore Michael Utley told me. The new ship, flying new aircraft, “is a huge step forward. It’s not just a return,” to carrier operations, he said.


That integration with the Marines comes as the Corps and the Navy are working on a new force structure assessment due later this year aimed at more closely linking the operations of the two. It’s a major shift for the Corps, which is coming off almost two decades of operating primarily as a ground force in the Middle East. As part of the emerging shift back to the sea, the Marines are looking to begin testing unmanned platforms to quickly refuel and rearm their F-35Bs operating from remote, austere bases in the Pacific — part of an effort to be more nimble and unpredictable, as the traditional American dominance at sea and in the air erodes.

Last month, Marine leaders announced a year-long round of war games to push the force into the future, while Gilday and Marine Commandant Gen. David Berger recently signed a memo pledging to work on a joint project to hack out a new way to project power forward. The goal is to more closely align their doctrine, training, and equipping plans to complement one another, rather than the Navy simply providing lift and cover for the Corps.

And now, with the QE preparing to set sail, it appears the Royal Navy may play a key part in those plans.

With the QE in the fleet, “we’ve jumped into a much more sophisticated networked environment, and together [with the US] there’s huge potential in the next 4 to 5 years to really squeeze out the maximum from this very advanced aircraft that we couldn’t even think about 10 years ago,” Kyd said.

The Royal Navy’s second F-35-specific carrier, HMS Prince of Wales, is currently undergoing sea trials in the North Sea in preparation for its planned first deployment in 2023. Having two brand-new carriers that can swap aircraft and missions with the US Navy and Marine Corps is, by any measure, a significant move at a time when US East Coast-based carriers are having some trouble making it out to sea on schedule.

MEUs? That’s a 6-jet commitment; that leaves 10 jets at home...available for deployment on a different ship, like maybe...QE. Imagine that... :salute:


Older LHA/LHD deployed with usually 6 aircraft detachments. Yet, that changing....

The USS America rocks 13 F-35B Lightning II fighters in the Pacific

QUOTE: But those "routine operations" apparently include a contingent of around 13 F-35Bs visible on the America's flight deck, as our eagle-eyed friends at The War Zone point out, a slight increase over the ten aircraft spotted aboard the USS Wasp when the latter rolled through the disputed South China Sea this past April and the full dozen the USS America touted during a demonstration back in 2016.

https://taskandpurpose.com/marine-corps ... belltitem5
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weasel1962

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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 06:34

US squadron on UK carriers? Carrier sharing is so new, they've only been doing it for 70+ years.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205152271

and if anyone thinks its only world wars...
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205163850
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weasel1962

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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 06:43

The LHDs' standard complement is 6 AV-8Bs. It can operate as many as 20 AV-8Bs in the sea control role which is something that has been going on since the 1980s. Harriers of course operated from all RN aircraft carriers. Did the USN ever felt the need for a USN harrier sqn?

Now with the introduction of the F-35B,

The LHDs' standard complement is 6 F-35Bs. It can operate as many as 20 F-35Bs in the sea control role. F-35Bs of course operates from all RN aircraft carriers.

Everything has now changed.....
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 08:31

weasel1962 wrote:The LHDs' standard complement is 6 AV-8Bs. It can operate as many as 20 AV-8Bs in the sea control role which is something that has been going on since the 1980s. Harriers of course operated from all RN aircraft carriers. Did the USN ever felt the need for a USN harrier sqn?

Now with the introduction of the F-35B,

The LHDs' standard complement is 6 F-35Bs. It can operate as many as 20 F-35Bs in the sea control role. F-35Bs of course operates from all RN aircraft carriers.

Everything has now changed.....


LHA/LHD did usually operate a flight of 6 Harriers. (from a squadron of 16) Yet, rarely operated many more....Nor, was the Sea Control Concept ever adopted....Regardless, it isn't the same thing that the USN is developing today for the F-35B. Two different animals...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 08:41

weasel1962 wrote:US squadron on UK carriers? Carrier sharing is so new, they've only been doing it for 70+ years.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205152271

and if anyone thinks its only world wars...
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205163850



Your confusing "cross decking" we being regularly deployed as part of an Air Wing. The latter has rarely happen...the French did send a single squadron of Rafales (12) and one Hawkeye. When the Charles De Gaulle was in refit a couple years back. Yet, even then just a few weeks. As it didn't complete the full deployment with the Air Wing (CVW-8) and US Carrier (USS George H.W. Bush).
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weasel1962

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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 12:24

Corsair1963 wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:The LHDs' standard complement is 6 AV-8Bs. It can operate as many as 20 AV-8Bs in the sea control role which is something that has been going on since the 1980s. Harriers of course operated from all RN aircraft carriers. Did the USN ever felt the need for a USN harrier sqn?

Now with the introduction of the F-35B,

The LHDs' standard complement is 6 F-35Bs. It can operate as many as 20 F-35Bs in the sea control role. F-35Bs of course operates from all RN aircraft carriers.

Everything has now changed.....


LHA/LHD did usually operate a flight of 6 Harriers. (from a squadron of 16) Yet, rarely operated many more....Nor, was the Sea Control Concept ever adopted....Regardless, it isn't the same thing that the USN is developing today for the F-35B. Two different animals...


We seem to be living in different worlds again. Source pls.
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weasel1962

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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 12:25

Corsair1963 wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:US squadron on UK carriers? Carrier sharing is so new, they've only been doing it for 70+ years.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205152271

and if anyone thinks its only world wars...
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205163850



Your confusing "cross decking" we being regularly deployed as part of an Air Wing. The latter has rarely happen...the French did send a single squadron of Rafales (12) and one Hawkeye. When the Charles De Gaulle was in refit a couple years back. Yet, even then just a few weeks. As it didn't complete the full deployment with the Air Wing (CVW-8) and US Carrier (USS George H.W. Bush).


I did not know lending an aircraft carrier is called cross decking. We learn something new everyday.
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wrightwing

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Unread post23 Oct 2019, 18:52

Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Yeah, there is no reason for the USN to acquire the F-35B........ :roll:

There's nothing in that article, that suggested the USN buying F-35Bs would be a better course of action, than buying more F-35Cs. No MEU is going to do without aircraft availability, due to other squadrons conducting joint operations with the Royal Navy. Even if both British carriers were deployed with USMC jets, that's 2 squadrons out of 340 F-35Bs they're buying.



HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF??? "I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED OR EVEN IMPLIED THE USN SHOULD REPLACE F-35C'S WITH F-35B'S.......

:roll: :roll: :roll:

In addition the USMC doesn't have an "infinite" number of F-35B's. Yet, has more and more commitments by the day...from the USN in the new role as Mini Aircraft Carriers. To Japanese and British Aircraft Carriers. (i.e. Izumo and Queen Elizabeth Classes) So, please tell us MEU's will always have enough aircraft availability???

That's not the point I'm making, nor did I suggest you'd made that argument. The point that I AM making, is that the USN doesn't need any F-35Bs. There is no scenario where that makes any sense, just as there is no scenario where the USMC is going to be short of F-35Bs because of a squadron being deployed on a British carrier. There are currently 7 MEUs. 3 East Coast, 3 West Coast, and 1 in Japan. Till the F-35B, MEUs deployed with 6 AV-8B in support. If we go with the higher number of 13 per MEU, that's still only 91 aircraft if all 7 were simultaneously deployed. Even if we go with 20 aircraft per MEU, that's only 140 aircraft. All 7 MEUs could be deployed with 20 aircraft, both British carriers, and the Japanese carrier, and there'd still be half the F-35B fleet left over.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Oct 2019, 01:01

wrightwing wrote:
That's not the point I'm making, nor did I suggest you'd made that argument. The point that I AM making, is that the USN doesn't need any F-35Bs. There is no scenario where that makes any sense, just as there is no scenario where the USMC is going to be short of F-35Bs because of a squadron being deployed on a British carrier. There are currently 7 MEUs. 3 East Coast, 3 West Coast, and 1 in Japan. Till the F-35B, MEUs deployed with 6 AV-8B in support. If we go with the higher number of 13 per MEU, that's still only 91 aircraft if all 7 were simultaneously deployed. Even if we go with 20 aircraft per MEU, that's only 140 aircraft. All 7 MEUs could be deployed with 20 aircraft, both British carriers, and the Japanese carrier, and there'd still be half the F-35B fleet left over.



If, there is no case for USN F-35B's. Then clearly there is no case for USMC F-35C's either! Are you stating that USMC F-35C's should be given to the USN??? While, taking USMC aircraft from the decks of USN Navy Aircraft Carriers (CVN) altogether???

Nor, does your numbers add up that the USMC would have "enough" F-35B's to go around either. As in a actual conflict the demands would be nothing short of extreme. This is "exasperated" by the need to provide US F-35B's to allies like the Japan, Italy, Spain, and UK. Which, don't have enough to fill their decks and with no to little spares to support attrition. Good example is Italy with 30 (total) F-35B's split between Navy and Air Force. While, Spain and Australia don't have F-35B's at all.

Sure in peace time your average LHA/LHD would likely operate with ~ dozen F-35B's. Yet, that number would boom in any conflict. As surely the USMC would want to move great numbers of F-35B's to austere runways. To support troop movements going ashore.

The core of the issue here is USMC F-35B's need to focus on their "Core Mission". That is to support MEU's. Adding new roles like Mini-Carriers and supporting Allied Carriers. Takes them away from that....



Issue here is USMC F-35B's that should be 100% dedicated to supporting the MEU's.
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Unread post24 Oct 2019, 01:07

'Corsair1963' said above: "...Australia don't have F-35B's at all...." SHIRLEY you exaggerate. Our ADF/RAN particularly does not EVEN WANT any F-35Bs to CROSS DECK on our two LHDs. Did you forget that? RAAF does not want any F-35Bs either.
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Unread post24 Oct 2019, 01:52

spazsinbad wrote:'Corsair1963' said above: "...Australia don't have F-35B's at all...." SHIRLEY you exaggerate. Our ADF/RAN particularly does not EVEN WANT any F-35Bs to CROSS DECK on our two LHDs. Did you forget that? RAAF does not want any F-35Bs either.



Things change all the time....... :wink:


Honestly, few would be surprised. If, Australia acquires the F-35B at some point in the future.
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 24 Oct 2019, 01:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post24 Oct 2019, 01:53

Corsair1963 wrote:Then clearly there is no case for USMC F-35C's either!


having to repeat 70+ years of naval tradition, the fight for tacair priority from CVs etc....Tradition! (in Topol's deepest voice!)

To be fair to the USMC, there were certain sections that resisted the C for a purely B force in the USMC.
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wrightwing

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Unread post24 Oct 2019, 01:56

Corsair1963 wrote:




If, there is no case for USN F-35B's. Then clearly there is no case for USMC F-35C's either! Are you stating that USMC F-35C's should be given to the USN??? While, taking USMC aircraft from the decks of USN Navy Aircraft Carriers (CVN) altogether???


That's an entirely different argument. Whether or not it makes sense for the USMC to operate Cs off of CVNs has no bearing on whether the USN should buy Bs.

Nor, does your numbers add up that the USMC would have "enough" F-35B's to go around either. As in a actual conflict the demands would be nothing short of extreme. This is "exasperated" by the need to provide US F-35B's to allies like the Japan, Italy, Spain, and UK. Which, don't have enough to fill their decks and with no to little spares to support attrition. Good example is Italy with 30 (total) F-35B's split between Navy and Air Force. While, Spain and Australia don't have F-35B's at all.


My numbers absolutely add up. There have been no talks whatsoever for USMC F-35Bs to deploy on any ships other than the 2 British carriers (which most likely wouldn't both be deployed simultaneously). Any USMC jets operating off other allied ships, would be supporting MEUs, as part of the EABO/distributed lethality concept. Not going on unrelated cruises. At most, you'd have 4 MEUs in a given theater, and even that's not for certain, as you need to be able to rotate forces.


Sure in peace time your average LHA/LHD would likely operate with ~ dozen F-35B's. Yet, that number would boom in any conflict. As surely the USMC would want to move great numbers of F-35B's to austere runways. To support troop movements going ashore.

The core of the issue here is USMC F-35B's need to focus on their "Core Mission". That is to support MEU's. Adding new roles like Mini-Carriers and supporting Allied Carriers. Takes them away from that....

Issue here is USMC F-35B's that should be 100% dedicated to supporting the MEU's.


LHAs wouldn't be supporting CVNs. They'd be providing air support for MEUs. Only 2 ships are designed as primarily aviation oriented, so the other ships won't be carrying 20 jets. They may carry 10 to 13, at the expense of helicopters. There hasn't been a shift in the core mission. The only shift has been in how the core mission is accomplished. Like I said before, there's never going to be a mission where F-35Bs aren't available, because they're on someone else's ship, in another part of world.
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Unread post24 Oct 2019, 02:10

The F-35B replaces both USMC F-18s (which doesn't operate on LHDs) and AV-8Bs (which do). No surprise why there would be an excess of Bs for LHDs.
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Unread post24 Oct 2019, 02:17

wrightwing wrote:
That's an entirely different argument. Whether or not it makes sense for the USMC to operate Cs off of CVNs has no bearing on whether the USN should buy Bs.

Not at all....you claim no case for USN F-35B's. Yet, disregard that USMC F-35C's already operate from USN Carriers. So, ok for USMC to operate F-35C from Navy Ships in a Navy Role. Yet, for some reason the US Navy can't operate F-35B's in a "Navy Role". I think that is an "Oxymoron" or close to it....

My numbers absolutely add up. There have been no talks whatsoever for USMC F-35Bs to deploy on any ships other than the 2 British carriers (which most likely wouldn't both be deployed simultaneously). Any USMC jets operating off other allied ships, would be supporting MEUs, as part of the EABO/distributed lethality concept. Not going on unrelated cruises. At most, you'd have 4 MEUs in a given theater, and even that's not for certain, as you need to be able to rotate forces.

Really.....

USMC to Fly First F-35B from Japan’s Izumo-class Aircraft Carriers

U.S. Marine Corps' F-35B STOVL fighters will be the first fixed wing aircraft to fly from Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Izumo-class "helicopter destroyers", following the conversion of both JS Izumo and JS Kaga into aircraft carriers.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -carriers/


.....and your "numbers' don't remotely add up in the real world. As you don't add many of the variables. (attrition, forward deployed - austere runways, allied commitments, etc. etc.)

LHAs wouldn't be supporting CVNs. They'd be providing air support for MEUs. Only 2 ships are designed as primarily aviation oriented, so the other ships won't be carrying 20 jets. They may carry 10 to 13, at the expense of helicopters. There hasn't been a shift in the core mission. The only shift has been in how the core mission is accomplished. Like I said before, there's never going to be a mission where F-35Bs aren't available, because they're on someone else's ship, in another part of world.


The USN hasn't said that only the USS America and USS Tripoli will be used in the role of Mini- Carrier. Of course they're better suited in some respects.

Sounds like we will have to agree to disagree on this one...
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