F-35Bs Establishing potential of Australian aircraft carrier

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spazsinbad

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Unread post13 Feb 2019, 13:42

Here is the faulty 'PM Abbott OFFERED' meme. Abbott did no such thing - he said investigate or words to that effect. How can a PM OFFER anything. I thought this erroneous meme was quashed earlier. Oh well - that is why they are mememes.
:devil: I got the name of the AM rong - oh well.. :doh: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=354900&hilit=Davies#p354900
"...The service seems to still harbor hopes of an all-Lightning fighter and strike force. In a little-noticed address to an ASPI meeting in July, the head of the RAAF, Air Marshal Leo Davies, listed the candidates for Australia’s next combat-aircraft program as Super Hornets, F-35As and F-35Bs.... Davies did not explain the merits of the third, quite surprising option, the F-35B. But an obvious possibility is that Australia has begun to wonder about the survivability of its northern airbases in the face of attack by Chinese cruise and ballistic missiles.... 21 Oct 2016
http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... potential/

Why have a thread about future F-35Bs on LHDs? Because the idea has merit for the future - believe it or not - 3rd LHD.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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optimist

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Unread post13 Feb 2019, 22:15

You are quoting Davies from 2014, when abbott made his thought bubble and it was being politely stuck back up his a$$, from where he originally pulled it. Show me anything from ADF, 2016 onwards that seriously proposes f-35b.

You have your opinion on whether Abbott's thought bubble was an offer that was later changed to a suggestion to evaluate the possibility. You will no doubt have the original statement when it was first uttered by Abbott. My recollection is that it was an offer and he was matter of fact that because the LHD had a ski jump, we should put some f-35b on the boats.

It's reasonable to talk of a future fantasy fleet. but silly to use anything from Abbott to support it as a possibility. ADF is clear on the subject. It would take a future political change of opinion and the money to put it in place.
It really isn't as simple as buying another LHD and 24 f-35b. That is the cheap part. All the infrastructure and other platforms to support this ship and have it survivable, is where the money is spent.
My fantasy fleet would have 2 LHD and 56 f-35b. A batch of support ships and subs, with all the space stuff in play. It would really be a change in the ADF force structure and could easily have a 50% increase in budget.
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 00:26

UMMM no - the AM Davies date is 21 Oct 2016. Again stop quoting from your faulty memory THEN asking ME to find quotes. YOU find them. Find the ORIGINAL ABBOTT PM quote. Quote where ADF is clear on F-35Bs. Again: what is your expertise?
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 01:30

By all means speculate on a possible future fantasy fleet. It's when you throw Abbott and the associated response into the mix. Trying to give this fantasy fleet some credibility is where I have a problem

There will be no aussie f-35b on our 2 existing LHD, end of story.

the link was 2014 and I thought that was davies. my mistake.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... potential/

from your thread link, I think davies misspoke about the B, it must have been a surprise to everyone, it isn't a serious option and I doubt there is any other reference to it from 2016 onwards from ADF. Or that Davies ever mentioned the B again. I think he was having a flashback to 2014 from some bad mushrooms. :mrgreen:
"Davies did not plain the merits of the third, quite surprising option, the F-35B"

My experience is reading the white paper, no mention of the B..reading what is said to gov hearings , again I haven't read of a serious proposal from ADF. Along with what the active ADF people in the know, are saying in general unclass terms on the forums. There isn't a chance in hell.
My DMO contacts had nothing to do with the f-35b and nothing unclass came from them. Other than their opinion that is that it was an off the cuff thought bubble, that ADF had to respond to.

anyway this is getting circular and I might have a rest from this thread for a while
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 02:35

JUstInTime to have a rest because here comes another one....
The F-35B and Australia’s Canberra-class: Still a Chance?
14 Feb 2019 Robert Farley

"Does the F-35B still have a fighting chance to make it onto Australia’s Canberra-class warships? [best read at URL]

Is Australia going to take another look at the F-35B? Specifically, will Australia reconsider the acquisition of the F-35B for its Canberra-class amphibious assault ships?

Perhaps inevitably, Japan’s decision to modify its Izumo-class aircraft carriers to operate the F-35B has rekindled debate over the ships in Australia. For reasons good and ill, military procurement decisions often have a transnational impact; civilians and soldiers feel the need to match their friends as well as their enemies, and big acquisitions can change the symbolic landscape that military organizations operate in. The Japanese decision also has more practical consequences, as it increases the interoperability returns for an Australian acquisition, and may marginally reduce the cost of buying the F-35B. Indeed, in light of the British decision to fly F-35Bs from its two large carriers, almost all of Australia’s major defense partners will field carrier-borne F-35Bs. As was the case with Japan, the Royal Australian Navy almost certainly can rely on the theoretical and practical work that the U.S. Marine Corps has done on optimizing the effectiveness of the F-35B on its own large amphibious assault ships....

...Australia could probably use the F-35B in a variety of non-carrier contingencies, as it can take-off from under-prepared airfields across Southeast Asia. The government has resisted investing in the F-35B, however. Inter-service rivalry plays a role here, as the Royal Australian Air Force has been noticeably cold about acquiring a capability that would result in a division of offensive air responsibilities.

Australia faces many of the same dilemmas as Japan; it acquired amphibious warships to conduct amphibious warfare and its ancillary operations, such as humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. Indeed, in outlining the difficulties in modifying the Canberras, and the trade-offs associated with giving up a portion of their amphibious capabilities, Malcolm Davis suggests acquiring another one or two carriers...."

Source: https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/the-f-3 ... -a-chance/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 03:20

My ozzie fantasy fleet consists of three naval tasks forces or battle groups. Each one consisting of
  • One fleet air arm LHD with 16 Killer Bees, plus 3 CV-22's, and CSAR helos
  • One air assault LHD with MV-22's / Chinooks (if you must) / MH-60s / or NH-90 helos -- all fully marinized with automatically folding rotor blades
  • Two air defense / anti-surface destroyers with backup anti-sub roles
  • Four frigates, primarily anti-sub, with anti-surface, air defense backup roles
  • Two of your new French made submarines
  • One amphibious transport dock ship

Eight training / spare Killer Bees.

One task force is in maintenance and/or training workups, leaving two for the North / West approaches to ozzieland, or one for the West, one for the East, or one to go play up north, and one to guard the homeland.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 05:04

optimist wrote:By all means speculate on a possible future fantasy fleet. It's when you throw Abbott and the associated response into the mix. Trying to give this fantasy fleet some credibility is where I have a problem

There will be no aussie f-35b on our 2 existing LHD, end of story.

the link was 2014 and I thought that was davies. my mistake.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... potential/

from your thread link, I think davies misspoke about the B, it must have been a surprise to everyone, it isn't a serious option and I doubt there is any other reference to it from 2016 onwards from ADF. Or that Davies ever mentioned the B again. I think he was having a flashback to 2014 from some bad mushrooms. :mrgreen:
"Davies did not plain the merits of the third, quite surprising option, the F-35B"

My experience is reading the white paper, no mention of the B..reading what is said to gov hearings , again I haven't read of a serious proposal from ADF. Along with what the active ADF people in the know, are saying in general unclass terms on the forums. There isn't a chance in hell.
My DMO contacts had nothing to do with the f-35b and nothing unclass came from them. Other than their opinion that is that it was an off the cuff thought bubble, that ADF had to respond to.

anyway this is getting circular and I might have a rest from this thread for a while



In my opinion Australia will acquire the F-35B sooner or later. Which, they likely will operate in some form from the Canberra Class of LHD's. Especially, as more nations start operating a similar combo of ships and F-35B's. (Japan, Turkey, US, and likely Spain)

Honestly, this whole backlash against buying the F-35B. Sounds very much like the controversy surrounding the F-35 for the RAAF in the first place. Yet, we all know how that turned out...... :wink:
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 05:14

Corsair1963 wrote:
optimist wrote:By all means speculate on a possible future fantasy fleet. It's when you throw Abbott and the associated response into the mix. Trying to give this fantasy fleet some credibility is where I have a problem

There will be no aussie f-35b on our 2 existing LHD, end of story.

the link was 2014 and I thought that was davies. my mistake.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... potential/

from your thread link, I think davies misspoke about the B, it must have been a surprise to everyone, it isn't a serious option and I doubt there is any other reference to it from 2016 onwards from ADF. Or that Davies ever mentioned the B again. I think he was having a flashback to 2014 from some bad mushrooms. :mrgreen:
"Davies did not plain the merits of the third, quite surprising option, the F-35B"

My experience is reading the white paper, no mention of the B..reading what is said to gov hearings , again I haven't read of a serious proposal from ADF. Along with what the active ADF people in the know, are saying in general unclass terms on the forums. There isn't a chance in hell.
My DMO contacts had nothing to do with the f-35b and nothing unclass came from them. Other than their opinion that is that it was an off the cuff thought bubble, that ADF had to respond to.

anyway this is getting circular and I might have a rest from this thread for a while



In my opinion Australia will acquire the F-35B sooner or later. Which, they likely will operate in some form from the Canberra Class of LHD's. Especially, as more nations start operating a similar combo of ships and F-35B's. (Japan, Turkey, US, and likely Spain)

Honestly, this whole backlash against buying the F-35B. Sounds very much like the controversy surrounding the F-35 for the RAAF in the first place. Yet, we all know how that turned out...... :wink:


Quite similar. The case of a fantasy acquisition of F-35B is on the complete opposite side of reality, just as the F-22 / F-111 'missileer' advocates were 10-15 years ago.

The F-35B advocates are also quite similar to the F-22A/F-111 advocates in that it is not and never was supported as a credible option by the ADF or either side of Government...

So get over that little "hurdle" and maybe it becomes more likely...
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 05:31

Conan wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
optimist wrote:By all means speculate on a possible future fantasy fleet. It's when you throw Abbott and the associated response into the mix. Trying to give this fantasy fleet some credibility is where I have a problem

There will be no aussie f-35b on our 2 existing LHD, end of story.

the link was 2014 and I thought that was davies. my mistake.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... potential/

from your thread link, I think davies misspoke about the B, it must have been a surprise to everyone, it isn't a serious option and I doubt there is any other reference to it from 2016 onwards from ADF. Or that Davies ever mentioned the B again. I think he was having a flashback to 2014 from some bad mushrooms. :mrgreen:
"Davies did not plain the merits of the third, quite surprising option, the F-35B"

My experience is reading the white paper, no mention of the B..reading what is said to gov hearings , again I haven't read of a serious proposal from ADF. Along with what the active ADF people in the know, are saying in general unclass terms on the forums. There isn't a chance in hell.
My DMO contacts had nothing to do with the f-35b and nothing unclass came from them. Other than their opinion that is that it was an off the cuff thought bubble, that ADF had to respond to.

anyway this is getting circular and I might have a rest from this thread for a while



In my opinion Australia will acquire the F-35B sooner or later. Which, they likely will operate in some form from the Canberra Class of LHD's. Especially, as more nations start operating a similar combo of ships and F-35B's. (Japan, Turkey, US, and likely Spain)

Honestly, this whole backlash against buying the F-35B. Sounds very much like the controversy surrounding the F-35 for the RAAF in the first place. Yet, we all know how that turned out...... :wink:


Quite similar. The case of a fantasy acquisition of F-35B is on the complete opposite side of reality, just as the F-22 / F-111 'missileer' advocates were 10-15 years ago.

The F-35B advocates are also quite similar to the F-22A/F-111 advocates in that it is not and never was supported as a credible option by the ADF or either side of Government...

So get over that little "hurdle" and maybe it becomes more likely...

Read this thread, I think it covered it OK. although they pick it up when it was being reported that abbott called for an enquiry, They do have the white paper and the gov hearing with the defence chiefs saying they don't want the f-35b
http://www.adf-messageboard.com.au/invb ... =2521&st=0
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 06:03

What stops 'optimist' from quoting from the source text he/she wants to reference? Why vaguely paraphrase? Why Why?

BTW the same material would be in this forum - but scattered all over - until this thread was started. Find it here?
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 06:14

It's a 4 page threat that is worth reading as a whole, why quote anything from it? I gave an outline to it. it's a 10 minute look.
Last edited by optimist on 14 Feb 2019, 06:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 06:28

I am hard-pressed to see any official debunk of the F-35B either.

The white papers may be found here (which is probably posted by Spaz sometime earlier - I'm too lazy to look).
http://www.defence.gov.au/WhitePaper/Links.asp

of which the submissions on the F-35B were acknowledged in the pdf "Defence White Paper Expert Panel report - Guarding against uncertainty:.

What the lack of an official rejection in writing tells me, is that whilst the ADF may privately not think its a good idea, its still a possibility that is not rejected, particularly for the 4th sqn replacement.
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 06:40

weasel1962 wrote:I am hard-pressed to see any official debunk of the F-35B either.

The white papers may be found here (which is probably posted by Spaz sometime earlier - I'm too lazy to look).
http://www.defence.gov.au/WhitePaper/Links.asp

of which the submissions on the F-35B were acknowledged in the pdf "Defence White Paper Expert Panel report - Guarding against uncertainty:.

What the lack of an official rejection in writing tells me, is that whilst the ADF may privately not think its a good idea, its still a possibility that is not rejected, particularly for the 4th sqn replacement.


That's OK, you may not know who Jennings and Co. are. You can take them seriously if you wish to, ADF doesn't. Jennings was disendorsed and lost his electoral seat, so I guess even the politicians didn't think much of him.The LHD and F-35b were rejected on cost etc. F-35b never made a mention in the white paper
Last edited by optimist on 14 Feb 2019, 06:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 06:44

weasel1962 wrote:What the lack of an official rejection in writing tells me, is that whilst the ADF may privately not think its a good idea, its still a possibility that is not rejected, particularly for the 4th sqn replacement.


In general I think the Aussies run a fairly tight ship, no pun intended, regarding defense matters. Their plan to use Super Dupers to bridge the gap to the F-35A, the acquisition of C-17's, E-7A Wedgetails, and of course, their continued acquisition of F-35A's all speak to a professionally run defense department.

Then they go and put non-marinised helos on their Canberra's, helos without automatically folding rotors, and Chinooks which must have the rotor blades manually removed to fit them into the hangar... and I just shake my head.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 06:45

optimist wrote:That's OK, you may not know who Jennings and Co. are. You can take them seriously if you wish to, ADF doesn't. The LHD and F-35b were rejected on cost etc. F-35b never made a mention in the white paper


I understand your perception of the credibility of the people that made the submissions.

What I'm asking for is where is the "official" rejection? Not making a mention is not an official rejection.
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