[Dutch F-35A Pilots] Out of the SHADOWS May 2018 PDF

Variants for different customers or mission profiles
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

mk82

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 849
  • Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 18:43
  • Location: Australia

Unread post06 Apr 2018, 12:06

glennwhitten wrote:"The F-35 will never be able to out dogfight a Typhoon in a million years" yet here the F-35 was gunning "clean" F16's while carrying a "bomb" in its internal bomb bay! Sounds like they might have a chance with a Typhoon after all!
"The F-35 will never be able to provide CAS like the A-10"! Yet the F-35 can make digital maps of the battle space and exchanges these maps and videos with ground controllers. Thereby providing quicker and more accurate CAS to ground troops! Yeah the A-10 carries more gun rounds but the F-35 carries more bombs! That's what ground troops want, faster and more accurate (safer) bombs on target!
After expending their bombs they can stay to provide EW assistance to any 4th gen aircraft in the area! Also targeting info to 4th gen aircraft via link 16. Then go back and land vertically at their forward operating base just behind the front line, to refuel, rearm, and do it all again in a fraction of the time it takes other aircraft to return to a landing strip farther behind the front lines! It's a dog alright, TOP DOG!!!


Spot on!!!
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3177
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post06 Apr 2018, 12:16

mk82 wrote:Damn!!!!!!!!! More surprises! The F35’s electronic warfare/electronic attack capabilities are much better than I expected (Growler Junior lol). Excellent networking capabilities as expected. A bit cliched but this aircraft (F35) can almost do everything!!!


Jack of all trades, master of everything... :D
Offline

mk82

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 849
  • Joined: 15 Oct 2009, 18:43
  • Location: Australia

Unread post06 Apr 2018, 13:07

hornetfinn wrote:
mk82 wrote:Damn!!!!!!!!! More surprises! The F35’s electronic warfare/electronic attack capabilities are much better than I expected (Growler Junior lol). Excellent networking capabilities as expected. A bit cliched but this aircraft (F35) can almost do everything!!!


Jack of all trades, master of everything... :D


Took the words out of my mouth!!
Offline

optimist

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1254
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post06 Apr 2018, 14:54

Remember back in 2012 and the rubbish that the anties were spouting?
This glimmer of light shone through.
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... ighter.pdf
Much speculation has swirled
around the question of the F-35’s
electronic warfare and electronic
attack capabilities. The Air Force
has resolutely refused to discuss
any specifics. Yet experts have
pointed out that, in its most recent
EW/EA roadmap, USAF has
failed to mention any plans for a
dedicated jamming aircraft. It is
a conspicuous omission.

O’Bryan certainly couldn’t go
into the subject of the fighter’s
EW/EA suite in any detail, or
the way it might coordinate with
specialized aircraft such as the
E-3 Airborne Warning and Control
System, RC-135 Rivet Joint, E-8
JSTARS, or EA-18G Growler
jammer aircraft.
He did say, however, that F-35
requirements call for it to go into battle
with “no support whatever” from these
systems
Aussie fanboy
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2537
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post06 Apr 2018, 15:20

Some additional pertinent quotes from the oldie, but goodie, article to which Optimist referred:
The F-35's Race Against Time
by John A Tirpak, AIR FORCE Magazine, November 2012
...
O’Bryan said the power of the F-35’s EW/EA systems can be inferred from the fact that the Marine Corps “is going to replace its EA-6B [a dedicated jamming aircraft] with the baseline F-35B” with no additional pods or internal systems.
Asked about the Air Force’s plans, O’Bryan answered with several rhetorical questions: “Are they investing in a big jammer fleet? Are they buying [EA-18G] Growlers?” Then he said, “There’s a capability here.”

O’Bryan went on to say that the electronic warfare capability on the F-35A “is as good as, or better than, [that of the] fourth generation airplanes specifically built for that purpose.” The F-35’s “sensitivity” and processing power—a great deal of it automated—coupled with the sensor fusion of internal and offboard systems, give the pilot unprecedented situational aware-
ness as well as the ability to detect, locate, and target specific systems that need to be disrupted.

...
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2012/November%202012/1112fighter.pdf


The second quote, in red, an oblique reference to Growler?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
Offline

usnvo

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 201
  • Joined: 01 Jul 2015, 18:51

Unread post06 Apr 2018, 22:54

steve2267 wrote:Some additional pertinent quotes from the oldie, but goodie, article to which Optimist referred:
The F-35's Race Against Time
by John A Tirpak, AIR FORCE Magazine, November 2012
...
O’Bryan said the power of the F-35’s EW/EA systems can be inferred from the fact that the Marine Corps “is going to replace its EA-6B [a dedicated jamming aircraft] with the baseline F-35B” with no additional pods or internal systems.
Asked about the Air Force’s plans, O’Bryan answered with several rhetorical questions: “Are they investing in a big jammer fleet? Are they buying [EA-18G] Growlers?” Then he said, “There’s a capability here.”

O’Bryan went on to say that the electronic warfare capability on the F-35A “is as good as, or better than, [that of the] fourth generation airplanes specifically built for that purpose.” The F-35’s “sensitivity” and processing power—a great deal of it automated—coupled with the sensor fusion of internal and offboard systems, give the pilot unprecedented situational aware-
ness as well as the ability to detect, locate, and target specific systems that need to be disrupted.

...
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2012/November%202012/1112fighter.pdf


The second quote, in red, an oblique reference to Growler?


The real limitation of the F-35 when it comes to electronic attack is the fact that it is largely limited to the frequency range of the APG-81. So jamming F-16 radars (and every other fighter and missile radar) are right in its wheelhouse. Add in the extremely small RCS in that frequency band and you have an awesome self-defense capability as well as the ability to help protect other assets from aircraft and missile attack. However, when you get out of that frequency band, specifically against most any AEW or ground based air search radars, there is no coverage.

This is not to criticize the aircraft, just recognize the limitations. So when someone says "the electronic warfare capability on the F-35A “is as good as, or better than, [that of the] fourth generation airplanes specifically built for that purpose.”" you have to remember that there are very real caveats to that statement.

Having said that, it is hilarious to read all the comments of people (Stealth is Dead because the F-35 can be detected!) who can't seem to understand what a massive advantage just being able to own the X-Band is. Look at the scenario in question, 8 F-16 defending against 4 F-16s and 2 F-35s. Even with a AEW or GCI radar that could actually detect the F-35 (although it should be noted that a real enemy force would have no way to know that two F-35 were there until they had already reacted to the 4 F-16s, talk about ambush possibilities), the F-16/F-35 force gets first detection, first shots (and probably second shots as well) before the OPFOR F-16s even get a chance to engage.
Offline

kimjongnumbaun

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 385
  • Joined: 08 Dec 2016, 21:41

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 00:09

usnvo wrote:[

The real limitation of the F-35 when it comes to electronic attack is the fact that it is largely limited to the frequency range of the APG-81. So jamming F-16 radars (and every other fighter and missile radar) are right in its wheelhouse. Add in the extremely small RCS in that frequency band and you have an awesome self-defense capability as well as the ability to help protect other assets from aircraft and missile attack. However, when you get out of that frequency band, specifically against most any AEW or ground based air search radars, there is no coverage.

This is not to criticize the aircraft, just recognize the limitations. So when someone says "the electronic warfare capability on the F-35A “is as good as, or better than, [that of the] fourth generation airplanes specifically built for that purpose.”" you have to remember that there are very real caveats to that statement.

Having said that, it is hilarious to read all the comments of people (Stealth is Dead because the F-35 can be detected!) who can't seem to understand what a massive advantage just being able to own the X-Band is. Look at the scenario in question, 8 F-16 defending against 4 F-16s and 2 F-35s. Even with a AEW or GCI radar that could actually detect the F-35 (although it should be noted that a real enemy force would have no way to know that two F-35 were there until they had already reacted to the 4 F-16s, talk about ambush possibilities), the F-16/F-35 force gets first detection, first shots (and probably second shots as well) before the OPFOR F-16s even get a chance to engage.


The F-35 also carries the AN/ASQ-239.

"Always active, AN/ASQ-239 provides all-aspect, broadband protection, allowing the F-35 to reach well-defended targets and suppress enemy radars."

https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/produc ... ure-system
Offline

vilters

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1154
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2009, 00:16

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 00:16

Ja, ja, but whatever you can hang on Jet A can also be hung on Jet B.

We are talking about "integrated Jamming possibilities.

And?....
Jamming is not so good at all. A "Jammer" is emitting, so increasing it's signature that can be found by other means.

TRUE Stealth is : Keep your mouths shut and EVERYTHING OFF.
Offline

optimist

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1254
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 01:42

You both may be right and the US is so silly and are clueless about EW/EA, including ground radar. Some would say you are wrong.
kimjongnumbaun video from link

and you may have forgotten back in 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIwAOupjMeM&t=
Aussie fanboy
Offline

glennwhitten

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 18
  • Joined: 12 May 2017, 18:42

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 05:31

LM likes to say the only way to make an aircraft stealthy is to build it in from the beginning. Strictly true, but the best way to make an F-16 disappear is to have it accompanied by an F-35! Say a country has a CAP of 4 SU-35's. They detect 4 inbound F-16's. They then move to intercept, but on the way there, the F16's disappear from radar, shortly before the Su-35 are blown from the sky by the F-16's AND the accompanying F-35s!!
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1526
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 05:33

usnvo wrote:The real limitation of the F-35 when it comes to electronic attack is the fact that it is largely limited to the frequency range of the APG-81. So jamming F-16 radars (and every other fighter and missile radar) are right in its wheelhouse. Add in the extremely small RCS in that frequency band and you have an awesome self-defense capability as well as the ability to help protect other assets from aircraft and missile attack. However, when you get out of that frequency band, specifically against most any AEW or ground based air search radars, there is no coverage.

This is not to criticize the aircraft, just recognize the limitations. So when someone says "the electronic warfare capability on the F-35A “is as good as, or better than, [that of the] fourth generation airplanes specifically built for that purpose.”" you have to remember that there are very real caveats to that statement.

Having said that, it is hilarious to read all the comments of people (Stealth is Dead because the F-35 can be detected!) who can't seem to understand what a massive advantage just being able to own the X-Band is.


Thank you, quite agree. Growler is intended as a STRATEGIC support jammer. What it is now is very far from what it will become, by 2025 to 2030 timeframe.

Digital NGJ long-wave = counter HF OTHR (enables VLO)

Digital NGJ medium-wave = counter VHF EWR & multistatic

Digital NGJ short-wave = counter LOS UHF anything.


USAF Generals may say they dont want Growler anywhere near their F-35A, OK, sure, but it will be Growlers that get them into targets unseen by EWRs, and make opfor GCI non-viable, and allow B-21 to approach or loiter, undetected.

You have to make sure you can strangle all EMS frequencies, to enable VLO to work at high-intensity end.

Right now JORN OTHR is under going its Phase-6 upgrade which involves comprehensive re-design and re-building of the whole network.

But why? If it already works effectively against F-117A, and B-2?

So that it can routinely detect and track J20 stealth aircraft, within the first-bounce region (to within about 3,500 km of the mainland). Plus to decentralise the network and make it more survivable and degrade gracefully in combat.

You'd need a sizeable fleet of Growler NGJ to be able to temporarily locally degrade even the current sensor network enough to attack unseen through it, as even the currect (overlapping triangulating steerable output) sensor network is capable of over 1.65 million watts output within the first-bounce region.

And much freakout around about king-hit hype-missiles taking out fleet units, easy-peasy, etc., but good luck targeting them if Growler NGJ has the theatre's electromagnetic spectrum by the throat. It's not going to be so easy.

No point comparing F-35 to Growler---grapes verses water-mellons.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1526
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 05:41

vilters wrote:TRUE Stealth is : Keep your mouths shut and EVERYTHING OFF.


Which won't work at all against HF band, until HF band VLO is developed and fielded.

Maybe on B-21, then PCA.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7722
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 07:04

That could be quite a frequency spread, only the Shadow knows.

usnvo wrote:...The real limitation of the F-35 when it comes to electronic attack is the fact that it is largely limited to the frequency range of the APG-81.



https://patents.google.com/patent/US4823136

The transmit-receive cells are fully functional at broadband and narrow band radio frequencies. In the narrow band of 9.2 to 10.2 GHz, the active antenna system would operate as a radar system. In the broadband range of 2.0 GHz to 20.0 GHz the active antenna system is fully functional in electronic countermeasures and radio frequency jamming. Either application would find a place on an advanced aircraft or space based sensor systems because of weight and size restrictions.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8408
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 07:29

So.. between L/S and K.. not bad. Too bad we'll never know what's in the APG-81. :roll:


Image
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7722
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post07 Apr 2018, 07:50

Makes me wonder what frequencies MALD-X will focus on.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
PreviousNext

Return to F-35 Variants and Missions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests