Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2016, 09:11
by spazsinbad
Exercise Northern Lightning Overview
24 Aug 2016 Video by Staff Sgt. Tarelle Walker 33rd Fighter Wing/Public Affairs

"CAMP DOUGLAS, WI, UNITED STATES
VIDEO Description: Members of the 58th Fighter Squadron and F-35A's from Eglin AFB, Florida traveled to Volk Field, Air National Guard Base in Wisconsin to participate in exercise Northern Lightning, the DoD's largest F-35 deployment.

Source: https://www.dvidshub.net/video/480588/e ... g-overview

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2016, 11:10
by Dragon029
Lots more footage at the sister article / video:

https://www.dvidshub.net/video/480459/n ... ning-day-1

Also, a PDF poster / flyer for Northern Lightning 2016:

http://www.wial.com/documents/2016/07/n ... htning.pdf

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 25 Aug 2016, 11:54
by spazsinbad
From the 'pdf poster' - thanks 'Dragon029'...
NORTHERN LIGHTNING EXERCISE
22 Aug – 2 Sept 2016 CRTC Volk Field, ANGB WI

VISION
Deliver a premier Air National Guard joint training environment replicating today’s battle space with current and future weapons platforms.

OBJECTIVE
Provide a tactical level, joint training exercise emphasizing user defined objectives resulting in tailored, scenario based, full spectrum, high end training.

FOCUS
Northern Lightning focuses on Opposed Air Interdiction against a highly integrated air defense system composed of relevant surface-to-air and air-to-air threats in a contested/degraded operational (CDO) environment. Emphasis is placed on joint integration of 4th and 5th generation assets from the Air National Guard, Air Force and Navy. Forces will be tasked to execute multiple missions including Offensive Counter Air (OCA), Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD/DEAD), and Close Air Support (CAS) involving actual employment of laser and GPS guided munitions from B-1, F-16, F-18, and F-35 aircraft.

TRAINING ENVIRONMENT
Volk Field CRTC, in conjunction with the 128th Air Control Squadron (ACS), 128th Air Refueling Wing (ARW), 115th Fighter Wing, Fort McCoy, and Hardwood Range provides realistic and challenging training scenarios unparalleled in the Air National Guard. Volk Field’s CRTC encompasses an Electronic Warfare range comprised of integrated stationary and mobile threat emitters capable of replicating enemy air defense systems. Hardwood range offers a full spectrum of target sets that support live, laser, GPS-guided munitions, moving strafe, and Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) targets.

The training environment offers exceptional training for Joint Tactical Air Controllers (JTAC) and pilots in rural, urban, uncontested and high threat environments including integration of Joint Fires Observers (JFO) from Fort McCoy. An organic Air Control Squadron provides Command and Control for airspace users facilitating air combat training. The airspace and ranges surrounding Volk Field CRTC are fully instrumented, providing real-time scenario based training utilizing live-virtual construct (LVC), and enhanced debrief capabilities."

Source: http://www.wial.com/documents/2016/07/n ... htning.pdf (7.3Mb)

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 16:25
by Dragon029
https://www.dvidshub.net/news/208489/vi ... y-aircraft

Vicious cycle: F-35A continues 5th-gen tradition of bullying legacy aircraft

VOLK FIELD AIR NATIONAL GUARD BASE, WI, UNITED STATES
08.30.2016

Story by Senior Airman Stormy Archer
33rd Fighter Wing/Public Affairs

Imagine yourself in the seat of a fighter jet, tearing through the air at the speed of sound, your own weight pressing against your chest as you fight to breathe against the increased force of gravity.
Sweat beads down your forehead as you scan you sensors and outside your canopy for any threats in the area. Next thing you know, you are tagged out by an enemy that is invisible to your sensors, and too far for your eyes to see.
You circle your jet around to regenerate, or “respawn”, into the battle space; only to make it back in time to be shot down by the same unseen adversary again… and again… and again.
A similar situation played out for Lt. Col. Brad Bashore, 58th Fighter Squadron commander, years ago when he flew against the F-22 Raptor as an F-15E Strike Eagle pilot.
Now as an F-35A pilot at this year’s exercise Northern Lightning, it’s his turn to deliver fire from the clouds.
“It’s not a fair fight, and that’s exactly what we want for our adversaries,” Bashore said. “To be on the offensive side this time and getting a chance to employ (those capabilities), I couldn’t ask for anything better. It’s like fighting somebody with their hands tied behind their back. It’s not a fair fight and that’s how we like it.”
Bashore and his wingmen at the 58th FS have been employing the capabilities of the F-35A, scoring as many as 27 kills in a single sortie, at Northern Lightning, a large force exercise where fifth and fourth generation aircraft engage in a contested, degraded environment.
“I remember the first time I flew against (fifth-generation aircraft),” Bashore said. “It’s a change in mind set because you can’t target anything on your radar because it’s not there, and by the time you do potentially find something it’s too late and they have already shot you.
“It’s frustrating, but at the same time understanding that it’s our asset is invigorating and gives you a lot of hope for the future as far as how successful this platform is going to be.”
While sharing many similarities with the F-22, the F-35A’s main advantage is its robust suite of sensors that give it the ability to process and share information with other players in the battle space. These capabilities make the F-35A more lethal and survivable than any legacy aircraft, and eliminate any safe space for the enemy to hide.
“We took off out of Madison (to join the fight),” said Lt. Col. Bart Van Roo, 176th FS commander. “We went to our simulated air field out in the far part of the air space. As the two ship from the Northern half of the air space we turned hot, drove for about 30 seconds and we were dead, just like that. We never even saw (the F-35A).”
Van Roo has been flying the F-16 since 2001 and as red air during Northern Lightning for 13 years. Red air is a formation of aircraft acting as the enemy for air-to-air tactics training.
“For us, as a capable fourth-generation fighter, we are used to being able to see and counter most adversaries that we have out there when we are playing red air,” Van Roo said. “Versus the F-35 it’s completely different. The most difficult thing is we just can’t see them like they can see us. It can feel like you are out there with a blindfold on trying to find someone in a huge space.
“We have been reliant on visual pickups of the aircraft only, which is extremely difficult to do, and at those ranges we are already dead before we could shoot back.”
Fortunately the red air pilots at this year’s Northern Lightning can take solace that the F-35A is on their side for future combat deployments, and will help ensure their ability to fly, fight and win against possible near peer adversaries.
“The significant increase in situational awareness that it gives us on the battle field, the information sharing between jets, radar capability and of course the capability that we will have with our opponents not being able to see us will be a game changer,” Van Roo said.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 17:37
by sferrin
LIES!!!! ALL OF IT. -Solomon

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 18:32
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:LIES!!!! ALL OF IT. -Solomon



"They set this up to silence me, and I am not buying it." - Solomon

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 18:32
by bojack_horseman
I'm sorry Dragon & Spazinbad..... you must be wrong!

Gilmore over at the DOT&E said that these planes can't do anything without a 4th Gen chaperoning it.

Unless, of course Gimore is talking out of his hoop! :mrgreen:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 21:05
by bayernfan
27 kills in a single sortie.....

Assuming 4 planes per unit, each carrying 4 AIM-120 internally, that is only 16 missiles. Even with wingtip AIM-9x, still only 24 missiles.

Indicating a bunch of gun kills?

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 21:35
by SpudmanWP
Most likely just a Blue reset but since NL is the "largest F-35 deployment to date", there may have been 8xF-35s.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 21:39
by neptune
...to narrow the focus abit....

I see many comments about the various accomplishments for the F-35A and am now focusing on the working relationships of the F-35A Lightning II, F/A-18 Super Hornet and EA-18 Growler.

Is this highlighted in any of the reports, were there any tactics employed between the (F-35) and the SBugs?

I realize one of the AF generals has commented that "he" did not want any SBugs around his F-35As; that said, were there joint comm/ data activities with the SBugs at NL?

...perhaps an indicator of future F-35C and SBug developments.... :roll:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 22:16
by spazsinbad
neptune wrote:...to narrow the focus abit....

I see many comments about the various accomplishments for the F-35A and am now focusing on the working relationships of the F-35A Lightning II, F/A-18 Super Hornet and EA-18 Growler.

Is this highlighted in any of the reports, were there any tactics employed between the (F-35) and the SBugs?

I realize one of the AF generals has commented that "he" did not want any SBugs around his F-35As; that said, were there joint comm/ data activities with the SBugs at NL?

...perhaps an indicator of future F-35C and SBug developments.... :roll:

I think the USAF General (HOSTAGE?) said he did not want GROWLERS around USAF F-35As:

http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen- ... ar-starts/
Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts
06 Jun 2016 Colin Clark

"...Gen. Hostage was crystal clear in his assessment.

Stealth Is Not Invisibility
“But in the first moments of a conflict I’m not sending Growlers or F-16s or F-15Es anywhere close to that environment, so now I’m going to have to put my fifth gen in there and that’s where that radar cross-section and the exchange of the kill chain is so critical. You’re not going to get a Growler close up to help in the first hours and days of the conflict, so I’m going to be relying on that stealth to open the door,” Hostage says...."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen- ... -starts/3/

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 22:54
by popcorn
“We took off out of Madison (to join the fight),” said Lt. Col. Bart Van Roo, 176th FS commander. “We went to our simulated air field out in the far part of the air space. As the two ship from the Northern half of the air space we turned hot, drove for about 30 seconds and we were dead, just like that. We never even saw (the F-35A).”

Absent SA, flyng faster only means you die faster.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2016, 23:25
by sferrin
Remember how pissed you'd get at the guy camping with the .50 BMG in Counterstrike? This must feel like that. :lol:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 00:55
by popcorn
It's getting tougher to justify a Raptor re-start if the F-35 starts racking up massive "kill" tallies in LFEs.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 03:44
by sferrin
popcorn wrote:It's getting tougher to justify a Raptor re-start if the F-35 starts racking up massive "kill" tallies in LFEs.


Probably isn't F-22 kills it's getting. :wink:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 09:29
by botsing
sferrin wrote:
popcorn wrote:It's getting tougher to justify a Raptor re-start if the F-35 starts racking up massive "kill" tallies in LFEs.


Probably isn't F-22 kills it's getting. :wink:

Probably not many, but it seemingly kills previous gens just as easy as the raptor.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 09:38
by vanshilar
popcorn wrote:“We took off out of Madison (to join the fight),” said Lt. Col. Bart Van Roo, 176th FS commander. “We went to our simulated air field out in the far part of the air space. As the two ship from the Northern half of the air space we turned hot, drove for about 30 seconds and we were dead, just like that. We never even saw (the F-35A).”


This seems like a very easy article for David Axe to write: "F-35 cheating in air exercises by respawn camping."

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 11:11
by popcorn
botsing wrote:
sferrin wrote:
popcorn wrote:It's getting tougher to justify a Raptor re-start if the F-35 starts racking up massive "kill" tallies in LFEs.


Probably isn't F-22 kills it's getting. :wink:

Probably not many, but it seemingly kills previous gens just as easy as the raptor.

Just getting started. ain't seen nothing yet...

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 13:31
by sferrin
vanshilar wrote:
popcorn wrote:“We took off out of Madison (to join the fight),” said Lt. Col. Bart Van Roo, 176th FS commander. “We went to our simulated air field out in the far part of the air space. As the two ship from the Northern half of the air space we turned hot, drove for about 30 seconds and we were dead, just like that. We never even saw (the F-35A).”


This seems like a very easy article for David Axe to write: "F-35 cheating in air exercises by respawn camping."



Probably writing it up as we speak.

(Not Axe but close enough:)

"EDITOR’S NOTE: The US Air Force’s claims of the F-35’s supernatural powers are becoming less credible with each new instance.
Scoring “27 kills in a single sortie” is impossible because the F-35 cannot carry more than four AIM-120 Amraam missiles internally, while adding two AIM-9X on wing pylons destroys its “stealth,” and makes it clearly visible to enemy radar.
Contrary to what is claimed above, the F-35’s sensors do not yet have “the ability to process and share information with other players in the battle space” because of technical faults.
But, even if they did, the F-35 could not transmit sensor data to previous-generation aircraft because its Multifunction Advanced Data Link is not fully operational, and in any case is not compatible with datalinks used by legacy aircraft. "


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 80%9D.html

What a whiny little turd.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 14:28
by bojack_horseman
sferrin wrote:"EDITOR’S NOTE: The US Air Force’s claims of the F-35’s supernatural powers are becoming less credible with each new instance.
Scoring “27 kills in a single sortie” is impossible because the F-35 cannot carry more than four AIM-120 Amraam missiles internally, while adding two AIM-9X on wing pylons destroys its “stealth,” and makes it clearly visible to enemy radar.
Contrary to what is claimed above, the F-35’s sensors do not yet have “the ability to process and share information with other players in the battle space” because of technical faults.
But, even if they did, the F-35 could not transmit sensor data to previous-generation aircraft because its Multifunction Advanced Data Link is not fully operational, and in any case is not compatible with datalinks used by legacy aircraft. "


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 80%9D.html

What a whiny little turd.


Who is this 'editor'?

Every time I see one of their articles it's like they begrudgingly report and then note at the end what they publish above is a lie.
It's a moronic way of doing 'churnalism'.

Also....
the F-35 could not transmit sensor data to previous-generation aircraft because its Multifunction Advanced Data Link is not fully operational, and in any case is not compatible with datalinks used by legacy aircraft. "

Someone tell me this is 100% bunk?

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 15:34
by Dragon029
MADL works fine, but what he may be referencing is or was the sensor fusion issue (talked about during Block 2B development) where any more than 2 jets fusing their sensors caused ghost (the same target would be detected but thought by the computers to be a second target). I don't know if that was fixed with Block 3i, but the concerns were being brought up in early/mid 2015.

As for as legacy compatibility goes, the F-35 can and does use Link 16 (there's been a few articles in the past where they've talked about F-35s improving the situational awareness of F-16s, etc - you can't do that if you have no comms). MADL isn't compatible with legacy jets, but that has nothing to do with the F-35; it's not a new iPhone or Samsung Galaxy's fault that a 10 year old phone can't use 4G.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 16:43
by krorvik
bojack_horseman wrote:
sferrin wrote:"EDITOR’S NOTE: The US Air Force’s claims of the F-35’s supernatural powers



Why do all of these people have to add a rhethorical exaggeration that implies the other part is exaggerating?

Not sure if it's funny or tragic.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2016, 17:55
by SpudmanWP
bojack_horseman wrote:Someone tell me this is 100% bunk?

Yes it's bunk...

The F-35 can use Link-16 and if stealth is an issue, an F-35 that is not in the AO can do it.

And no, a sidewinder on the wing will not "destroy" it's stealth.

One of his (and many other F-35 haters) problems is that once an issue is found with the F-35, it is a permanent problem. Nothing ever gets fixed, regardless of how it's being used today or what reports are released.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 01:36
by Dragon029
I sent the editor an email and got a response; the italics black text is from the article, the dark blue text is my email to him and the quote boxes are his itemised replies:

"Scoring “27 kills in a single sortie” is impossible because the F-35 cannot carry more than four AIM-120 Amraam missiles internally"

While I don't know for certain how this kill count was accrued, there are two obvious answers that don't require the USAF to call on supernatural powers; either an F-35 was allowed to rearm (like how jets are allowed to respawn), or there were multiple F-35s in that sortie (there were a total of fourteen F-35As at Northern Lightning), or it was a mix of those two answers (eg, maybe it was two F-35As that were allowed to rearm).

- If one or two F-35s were allowed to rearm, it is not a "single sortie."
- If there were "multiple" F-35s, it may be a single mission, but not a single sortie.
In either case, the USAF statement is both wrong and misleading.


"while adding two AIM-9X on wing pylons destroys its “stealth,” and makes it clearly visible to enemy radar."

While obviously the F-35 isn't going to remain a VLO platform with two external AIM-9X's, an F-35 with just those two outer hardpoints is still going to have a significant detection / RCS advantage over any 4th gen adversaries, especially from frontal sectors.

I said underwing missiles make the F-35 "clearly visible to enemy radar," which is a statement of fact.
I made no claims about whether "the F-35 has an RCS advantage or not over 4th gen adversaries."


"Contrary to what is claimed above, the F-35’s sensors do not yet have “the ability to process and share information with other players in the battle space” because of technical faults."

Where have you heard this? F-35s have been able to perform multi-ship sensor fusion between two aircraft fairly successfully; the technical faults have mainly been an issue when you try to fuse 3 or 4 F-35s together, with data not correlating properly and having some targets appearing as multiple targets.

The USAF story claims that the F-35 can "process and share information with other players in the battle space."
This is only true between two F-35s, as an F-35 cannot today fully transmit tactical data to 4th-gen aircraft.


"But, even if they did, the F-35 could not transmit sensor data to previous-generation aircraft because its Multifunction Advanced Data Link is not fully operational, and in any case is not compatible with datalinks used by legacy aircraft."

I think you're a bit confused; MADL works fine between F-35s (the sensor fusing issue is an issue with the mission computers rather than the data link). Furthermore, the F-35 has been able to use Link 16 for some time now. The Dutch have talked about it and its ability to improve the SA and combat capability of F-16s here: http://airheadsfly.com/2015/08/25/dutch ... tegration/

"In fact, Rockwell was awarded a contract in November 2015 to “help resolve the 5th to 4th generation communications gap.”"

Just to be clear; the reason for pursuing a bridge for this comms gap is to preserve the stealth of the F-22 and F-35 while communicating with legacy fighters. Using Link 16, like using their radar, doesn't mean instant death for an F-22 or F-35, but there are scenarios where it would be a major interoperability or survivability concern. Link 16 is also just incredibly slow for when it comes to things like sharing imagery or video, so having a high bandwidth system like IFDL or MADL would be a major benefit.

The "Dutch have talked about it," and have had some success in some exercises, but the US Air Force statement mentions what is a hypothetical future capability as it existed today as an operational capability. That is wrong.
You have a point here: I should have stated more clearly that the Rockwell contract is intended to "improve the sharing of mission-critical data," which exists in a limited volume, as you rightly noted: "Link 16 is also just incredibly slow for when it comes to things like sharing imagery or video"

We spend quite a bit of time fact-checking claims made by the F-35 enterprise, and rarely find them accurate, as some recent examples show:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... lders.html

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 80%9D.html

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ssing.html

Today's Editor's Note may not be in the same category, but it is in the same spirit.

Thank you for your interest in Defense-Aerospace.com, and kind regards,

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 03:17
by blindpilot
Dragon029 wrote:I sent the editor an email and got a response; ...

We spend quite a bit of time fact-checking claims made by the F-35 enterprise, and rarely find them accurate, as some recent examples show:

.. 1bn-cash-advance-goes-to-lockheed-stockholders.html

... marines-declared-f_35-ioc-despite-deficiencies-that-%E2%80%9Cpreclude-mission-readiness%E2%80%9D.html

... the-real-story-of-the-f_35%E2%80%99s-transatlantic-crossing.html

Today's Editor's Note may not be in the same category, but it is in the same spirit.

Thank you for your interest in Defense-Aerospace.com, and kind regards,


The asserted "inaccuracies" are deeply confused in the apple and oranges realm. I'll pick the last one, and just mention that I have crossed the pond, more than once, with chicks in tow, including through Lajes Field. The editor wouldn''t know which end of the box lunch to open... more importantly, who to ask how. I'm not surprised he got strange answers from the wall. I can see however, how the Program Office has just blown this guy off, based on the answers you received. I might address the questions in a face to face, but I wouldn't waste words on a blog/email where every editor's comment is framed against a false narrative. There is no profit in it.

When trying to press a narrative as he does, the rabbit hole that you go down discovering the lack of basic knowledge on the side subjects gets tedious. "I'm sorry, I didn't know you were clueless about that side subject, let me take you back to 101, and get you up to speed," .... is not something busy program managers are going to do.

Nor will I in a forum like these. Face to face you can dig through the clutter, but not here.

MHO
BP

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 03:40
by yeswepromise
Werent there around 12-14 F-35s that made the trip?

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 03:53
by Dragon029
Fourteen:
The 14 F-35As constitute the largest number of F-35s on one deployment to date.


https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... _26_16.pdf

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 04:43
by spazsinbad
Same article here with photos - 1 repro belo: http://www.hill.af.mil/News/Article-Dis ... -legacy-ai
PHOTO: "An F-35A Lightning II and an FA-18 Super Hornet fly in formation over Volk Field, Wis., during Northern Lightning on Aug. 23, 2016. Northern Lightning is a tactical-level, joint training exercise that emphasizes fifth- and fourth-generation assets engaged in a contested, degraded environment. (U.S. Air Force photo/Senior Airman Stormy Archer)" http://media.defense.gov/2016/Aug/30/20 ... 74-547.JPG

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 06:16
by mike5560
Axe is either unable to read between the lines or he plays dumb to fit an agenda. I'm "guessing" with a good level of confidence that with the 27 kills, the exercise planners simulated multiple waves of F-35s as both cost savings and maximizing training with the available jets. Maybe the AF should just send a/c to RTB once killed or run out of simulated missiles. That would only make the cost effectiveness to training value to very inefficient.
BTW, a sortie is one takeoff/ landing for one aircraft.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 06:35
by steve2267
The F-35 is downright tiny compared to the Sbug. That can't be right. That photo must be fake. :shock:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 06:45
by steve2267
Regarding the 27 kills and [implied / alleged] lack of missile carrying capacity...

Is it possible a two ship was forward deployed with 4 slammers each, and another two ship was much further back -- out of radar range of the red force thread -- each loaded to max AA capability with 8 slammers each. Well, that gets you to 24 missiles. Make it a four ship in reserve with eight each gets you to 40 total missiles.

The haters are just getting their panties in a knot.

Are there any threads here that discuss these tactics of one a/c targeting threats while other a/c shoot? Has the technology really advanced to the point where the illuminator / scout out front doesn't have to worry about getting shot by one of his teammates back behind him?

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 06:49
by 35_aoa
for what it is worth, a "slammer" is a SLAM-ER. A "rammer" is an AIM-120. Not that either is a proper term :)

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 07:19
by mrigdon
Did the Air Force ever specify how many F-35s were in the air during the mission that claimed 27 kills? They sent 14 planes to the exercise. If twelve were in the air at one time, they would be carrying 48 missiles between them, all internally. It doesn't seem unreasonable that they could claim 27 kills. Hey, even just eight planes can carry 32 missiles. Granted, 27 kills out of 32 missiles is an 85% success rate, but why not? The AMRAAM is supposed to be the premier air-to-air missile. If you don't get any warning that you've been targeted until the missile's seeker goes live, then you have even less time to respond.

It's a simulated exercise, as well. I would imagine (but I don't know) that the Pentagon wants to simulate CURRENT capabilities, but is there any chance that the exercise allowed the F-35 to fly with 6 AMRAAMs internal?

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 07:54
by krorvik
steve2267 wrote:The F-35 is downright tiny compared to the Sbug. That can't be right. That photo must be fake. :shock:


The F-35 is not as big as some will have it. Adding to that, it doesn't take a whole lot of distance difference between the two craft to disturb our perception of size. No reason to be shocked.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 08:33
by SpudmanWP
steve2267 wrote:...each loaded to max AA capability with 8 slammers each. Well, that gets you to 24 missiles.


Block 3i max is 4 internal
Block 3F max is 4 internal PLUS 8 external and 2 Aim-9x for good measure :roll:


Image

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 08:47
by hornetfinn
Dragon029 wrote:I sent the editor an email and got a response; the italics black text is from the article, the dark blue text is my email to him and the quote boxes are his itemised replies:
"while adding two AIM-9X on wing pylons destroys its “stealth,” and makes it clearly visible to enemy radar."

I said underwing missiles make the F-35 "clearly visible to enemy radar," which is a statement of fact.
I made no claims about whether "the F-35 has an RCS advantage or not over 4th gen adversaries."


I hate comments like this. It's not a statement of fact that underwing missiles make F-35 or any other fighter "clearly visible to enemy radar". That would depend on RCS of the missile itself, RCS of pylon/launcher it is attached to and how each of these components interact with each other. Even old IR guided missiles without any thought about lowering RCS had RCS of about 0.1 to less than 0.01 square meters from most aspect angles (with large spike of up to tens of square meters from directly perpendicular due to wings and fins acting as corner reflectors).

I'd say AIM-9X is vastly better than that as there is definitely some thought put on RCS of that missile (also ASRAAM and IRIS-T). The large spikes totally disappear due to positioning of wings and fins and their shape being far better for low RCS than in older missiles. Materials are very likely selected to lower RCS and imaging seekers very likely have far lower RCS than reticle seekers used in older missiles. IIR seekers are much smaller and have less reflective surfaces and corners. I'd say AIM-9X and ASRAAM likely have at least an order of magnitude smaller RCS than older missiles from most aspect angles and totally avoid the large spikes.

So it depends on RCS of pylon/launcher combo and interaction with airframe. I'd say both have been considered in design and likely do not increase RCS that much. Pylons are clearly shaped for low RCS and I doubt they increase RCS much. I doubt other factors increase RCS much, but that'd require some pretty highly classified information to know for sure. However there is nothing warranting underwing missiles making it "clearly visible to enemy radar". They definitely increase RCS, but I don't think it's that much and that they'd still likely be considered highly stealthy with external AIM-9X or ASRAAMs.

"Contrary to what is claimed above, the F-35’s sensors do not yet have “the ability to process and share information with other players in the battle space” because of technical faults."

The USAF story claims that the F-35 can "process and share information with other players in the battle space."
This is only true between two F-35s, as an F-35 cannot today fully transmit tactical data to 4th-gen aircraft.

"But, even if they did, the F-35 could not transmit sensor data to previous-generation aircraft because its Multifunction Advanced Data Link is not fully operational, and in any case is not compatible with datalinks used by legacy aircraft."

The "Dutch have talked about it," and have had some success in some exercises, but the US Air Force statement mentions what is a hypothetical future capability as it existed today as an operational capability. That is wrong.
You have a point here: I should have stated more clearly that the Rockwell contract is intended to "improve the sharing of mission-critical data," which exists in a limited volume, as you rightly noted: "Link 16 is also just incredibly slow for when it comes to things like sharing imagery or video"


I like how he is moving goal posts as soon as faults in his knowledge and logic are shown. F-35 definitely has a lot of ability to share tactical information with other players in the battlefield. It may not be as good as planned for Block 3F, but of course it's not supposed to be there yet. Like you wrote, that has been demonstrated already and not just talked about:
http://airheadsfly.com/2016/02/09/f-35- ... t-numbers/

Last year, the Dutch F-35s flew complex missions with their F-16 predecessors. The main focus was fourth and fifth generation fighter integration and interoperability. “It was a great experience and good to see the added value of the F-35. One F-16 pilot even described our F-35 capability as flipping on a light switch: without F-35s in the fight they were struggling in the dark, with F-35s by their side they had very high situational awareness.”


Similar statements are also coming from Norwegians and US services.

Besides, Link 16 is very fine system for sharing things like tracks, friendly platform information, commands etc. You know, tactical information. It's not nearly as good for sharing sensor level information for sensor fusion processes as MADL or IFDL but for sharing processed data there is likely not much difference besides that it isn't stealthy. You can also transmit imagery pretty easily through it, but streaming videos will take up almost all of the currently available bandwidth and would likely be used very selectively. But how often straming video would be really beneficial compared to imagery for example?

Besides, sensors themselves do not "process and share information with other players in the battle space” as he claimed. It's done through sensor fusion and data links.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 08:53
by spazsinbad
The original comparison was between USN aircraft so the F-35A to scale is superimposed as shown with real stats under.

SOME LINKS: http://www.amdo.org/JSF_Program_and_33_FW_Updates.pdf
http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Institutes ... ighter.pdf
http://www.cdi.org/pdfs/stevenson%20f-22%20brief.pdf

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 12:01
by quicksilver
Those who fly the jet say that F-35 can send more L16 messages than many other aircraft can swallow -- today -- and such capability is used routinely when the opportunity arises, as some of the reporting accurately states.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 12:06
by quicksilver
steve2267 wrote:The F-35 is downright tiny compared to the Sbug. That can't be right. That photo must be fake. :shock:


No, that picture is accurate. Notably, as configured, the jet on the left has more fuel capacity than the one on the right. Spaz has provided a link above.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 15:14
by mk82
Awesome result for the F35As at Northern Lightning.

Ahh...the stupidity of basement dwellers and "journalists" rises again....at Mountain Home - herp derp...those F15Es (Red Air) are only good for Air to Ground missions...herp derp. Meanwhile at Volk Field, where the F16 red air was smashed - Herp derp herp derp...F35A has supernatural abilities (oh thank you :mrgreen: )....other irrelevant reasons....herp derp. These F35 haters are truly getting desperate.

Oh yeah, that Editor should know that the F35's supernatural abilities = networked sensor fusion + VLO + multiple F35s + pilots who know how to exploit the F35's strengths....what a simple and wonderful equation :mrgreen:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 19:08
by krorvik
quicksilver wrote:No, that picture is accurate. Notably, as configured, the jet on the left has more fuel capacity than the one on the right. Spaz has provided a link above.


The body of the super bug is super slim...

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 03:30
by Dragon029
https://www.dvidshub.net/news/208740/f- ... yment-date

F-35A completes largest deployment to date

VOLK FIELD AIR NATIONAL GUARD BASE, WI, UNITED STATES
09.01.2016
Story by Senior Airman Stormy Archer
33rd Fighter Wing/Public Affairs

The 33rd Fighter Wing wrapped up the largest F-35 deployment to date at this year’s Exercise Northern Lightning Aug. 31 at Volk Field, Wis.
Northern Lightning is a tactical-level, joint training exercise which serves as a combat rehearsal for both legacy and modern aerial and ground assets in a contested, degraded environment.
The 33rd FW deployed over 150 personnel and 14 F-35As for two weeks to train to a realistic threat level and develop how to deploy and sustain a squadron of F-35s.
The Air Force announced the fighter jet was initially capable of combat operations in August of this year. With the service’s shift in focus to full operational capability for the aircraft, the lessons learned from this exercise will shape future real-world deployments of F-35A squadrons.
“The aircraft and program still have maturing left to do, but that is a scary thought for our adversaries,” said Lt. Col. Brad Bashore, 58th Fighter Squadron commander. “The performance here proves this aircraft is combat ready, even in its infancy.”
The 33rd FW scored over 110 kills against “enemy aircraft,” supported a surge of 138 sorties and dropped 24 GBU-12 bombs during Northern Lightning.
During the exercise, 33rd FW pilots were able to execute offensive counter air, suppression of enemy air defenses, destruction of enemy air defenses, and employ GPS-guided munitions for close air support.
“This exercise has increased my confidence in the F-35,” Capt. Mark Schnell, 33rd FW pilot said. “Believing that you are invisible is hard. (But) to come out and fly against fourth-generation assets and really see that the stealth capabilities of the F-35 are as advertised has been awesome. It makes our job easier knowing that we are (stealthy), and we can arrive at a position of advantage without (our adversary) knowing.”
Crews from the 33rd Aircraft Maintenance Squadron were able to support operational demands of the exercise by executing a high-tempo maintenance schedule, and preparing aircraft to drop munitions in a deployed location with less manning and resources than afforded to them at home station.
“This is the first time the program has supported such an extensive aircraft deployment,” 1st Lt. Krista Wooden, 33rd AMXS Aircraft Maintenance Unit assistant officer in charge, said. “We were able to simulate a deployed priority on our supply system, (and) successfully gauge the logistics of how a deployment will successfully run its course.”
The F-35A pilots practiced joint operations with F-16 Fighting Falcons, F/A-18 Super Hornets, E/A-18 Growlers and E-3 Sentries to create a more lethal and survivable strike package. The experience gained from deploying as a total force will shape how the units work together in future combat operations.
“Working with the F-35A really provides a unique capability for us,” Capt. Austin Kennedy, E/A-18 Growler electronic warfare officer, said. “They allow us the opportunity to train against more advanced threats that a fourth-generation aircraft wouldn’t be able to go after.
“The (low observable) characteristics of the jet make our jamming more effective, and it makes it easier for us to do our job.”
The dynamic threat environment of the 115th Fighter Wing’s Northern Lightning exercise provides a unique training ground for the fifth generation fighter with surface to air threats, a large air space that extends up to 50,000 feet, inter-service training and an expansive range for live and inert weapons drops.
“Thanks to the Air National Guard, and their herculean efforts to make this exercise happen,” said Lt. Col. Brad Bashore, 58th FS commander, said. “Thank you to the Deluth and Maddison Guard for being our adversaries during this exercise. It’s not always fun being red air and flying against us when you’re at a disadvantage. We couldn’t have done this without you.”

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 07:55
by hornetfinn
Dragon029 wrote:https://www.dvidshub.net/news/208740/f-35a-completes-largest-deployment-date

The F-35A pilots practiced joint operations with F-16 Fighting Falcons, F/A-18 Super Hornets, E/A-18 Growlers and E-3 Sentries to create a more lethal and survivable strike package. The experience gained from deploying as a total force will shape how the units work together in future combat operations.
“Working with the F-35A really provides a unique capability for us,” Capt. Austin Kennedy, E/A-18 Growler electronic warfare officer, said. “They allow us the opportunity to train against more advanced threats that a fourth-generation aircraft wouldn’t be able to go after.
“The (low observable) characteristics of the jet make our jamming more effective, and it makes it easier for us to do our job.”


This is what I've been trying to tell for a long time and a lot of people have trouble understanding. Low RCS of F-35 makes jamming so much more effective than it does for legacy fighters. Jamming aircraft can sit way further back in far safer areas and also have effective jamming coverage over far larger distances. F-35 even makes it possible for jamming aircraft to concentrate on certain frequency bands (most likely lower frequencies) and let F-35 do the high frequency jamming themselves when needed. This helps them put more jamming power on reduced number of threats which further enhances their effectiveness. All this makes it far more difficult for enemy to detect that there even is jamming going on as the power levels would be very small.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 08:13
by popcorn
hornetfinn wrote:
This is what I've been trying to tell for a long time and a lot of people have trouble understanding. Low RCS of F-35 makes jamming so much more effective than it does for legacy fighters. Jamming aircraft can sit way further back in far safer areas and also have effective jamming coverage over far larger distances. F-35 even makes it possible for jamming aircraft to concentrate on certain frequency bands (most likely lower frequencies) and let F-35 do the high frequency jamming themselves when needed. This helps them put more jamming power on reduced number of threats which further enhances their effectiveness. All this makes it far more difficult for enemy to detect that there even is jamming going on as the power levels would be very small.

No doubt the use of legacy jamming platforms will be highly choreographed so as not to mess with the 5Gens' sensors and comms. The last thing they want is to degrade the SA picture when operating in a hostile battle space.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 14:23
by sferrin
More whining from the usual suspects:

(EDITOR’S NOTE: Because of its habit of selectively releasing details and figures, the US Air Force makes it impossible to understand whether the F-35A’s performance during the deployment was as impressive as it sounds.
For example:
-- a “surge” of 138 missions by 14 aircraft over two weeks may sound impressive, but it averages out to less than one (precisely, 0.7) mission per aircraft per day, which is rather pedestrian.
-- The story does not say how many of those 138 missions were aborted.
-- The story says the squadron scored 110 kills against “enemy” aircraft, but again that averages out to 0.56 kills per aircraft per day, which is not really impressive.
-- how many of the “suppression of enemy air defenses, destruction of enemy air defenses” missions were assisted by EG-18F electronic attack aircraft?
-- how many “offensive counter-air” missions were assisted by E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft, and/or F-16 and F/A-18 Super Hornets fighters?
More details are needed to determine the F-35A’s real performance during this simulated deployment.)


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -date.html

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 14:27
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:More whining from the usual suspects:

(EDITOR’S NOTE: Because of its habit of selectively releasing details and figures, the US Air Force makes it impossible to understand whether the F-35A’s performance during the deployment was as impressive as it sounds.
For example:
-- a “surge” of 138 missions by 14 aircraft over two weeks may sound impressive, but it averages out to less than one (precisely, 0.7) mission per aircraft per day, which is rather pedestrian.
-- The story does not say how many of those 138 missions were aborted.
-- The story says the squadron scored 110 kills against “enemy” aircraft, but again that averages out to 0.56 kills per aircraft per day, which is not really impressive.
-- how many of the “suppression of enemy air defenses, destruction of enemy air defenses” missions were assisted by EG-18F electronic attack aircraft?
-- how many “offensive counter-air” missions were assisted by E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft, and/or F-16 and F/A-18 Super Hornets fighters?
More details are needed to determine the F-35A’s real performance during this simulated deployment.)


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -date.html



Wehhhhhhhhhh :mrgreen:

The longer the "editors note" the better with this hack LOL

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2016, 19:57
by botsing
The Joint Forces Channel wrote:Members of the 58th Fighter Squadron and F-35A's from Eglin AFB, Florida traveled to Volk Field, Air National Guard Base in Wisconsin to participate in exercise Northern Lightning, the DoD's largest F-35 deployment.

Published on Sep 5, 2016



Just take off and landings, at around 6:04 you can see 13 (could be 14?) F-35 lined up.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2016, 08:30
by hornetfinn
sferrin wrote:More whining from the usual suspects:

(EDITOR’S NOTE: Because of its habit of selectively releasing details and figures, the US Air Force makes it impossible to understand whether the F-35A’s performance during the deployment was as impressive as it sounds.
For example:
-- a “surge” of 138 missions by 14 aircraft over two weeks may sound impressive, but it averages out to less than one (precisely, 0.7) mission per aircraft per day, which is rather pedestrian.
-- The story does not say how many of those 138 missions were aborted.
-- The story says the squadron scored 110 kills against “enemy” aircraft, but again that averages out to 0.56 kills per aircraft per day, which is not really impressive.
-- how many of the “suppression of enemy air defenses, destruction of enemy air defenses” missions were assisted by EG-18F electronic attack aircraft?
-- how many “offensive counter-air” missions were assisted by E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft, and/or F-16 and F/A-18 Super Hornets fighters?
More details are needed to determine the F-35A’s real performance during this simulated deployment.)


http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... -date.html


LOL, just LOL... :roll:

1. Yes, because exercises always go full steam from the 1st day to last day with maximum amount of sorties flown every day... :roll: Also that amount of sorties is fairly normal for mature in-service aircraft during similar time frame. Besides, each F-35 sortie is likely a quite a bit longer as it has much better endurance than most fighters. It might be hard for this editor to understand, but even F-35s need maintenance and their crews need to eat and sleep... Not to mention mission planning and debriefing... :doh:

2. Killin over 110 enemy aircraft without any losses is fairly impressive to me... Especially since most missions weren't even air-to-air missions at all. Only F-22 has ever done anything remotely similar in exercises.

3. What does it matter if F-35s got support or not? This exercise wasn't about showing how super-awesome F-35 is. It was about everybody getting important training, including F-16, F/A-18, Growler and E-3 crews.

This is getting really stupid. If F-35 doesn't kill everybody within secods and if there are some other aircraft in the air at the same time, it sucks...

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 06 Sep 2016, 12:09
by Dragon029
More from SLD:

http://www.sldinfo.com/northern-lightni ... -20169116/

Northern Lightning Exercise 2016:

09/06/2016: 4th and 5th generation aircraft soared through the skies at Volk Field on Thursday morning as pilots had combat rehearsal training.

Volk Field Combat Readiness Training Center hosted their annual Northern Lightning combat exercise which provides real-world conflict scenarios for active service personnel from the National Guard, Air Force, and the Navy.

The week long exercise is meant to prepare 700 airmen for combat. Missions practiced at Volk Field are high-end training drills for units from all over the country.

“These exercises allow us to practice full scale operations and they allow us to improve our own instructors so that when we go back to our school house to teach the newest students in the F-35, we can make them better and ultimately improve our combat capability as an Air Force,” Lt. Col. Brad Baeshore, Commander, 58th Fighter Squadron said.

The situations practiced provide extensive training and cohesiveness between joint military services.

“The Air Force just declared initial operational capability, we just did that on the second of August is when we declared that and now the important part is that we are taking the F-35 on the road to train other people what our tactics are and how to manage those tactics so that when we do have to employ in combat everyone is familiar with each other and we know how to execute those to the best of our abilities.” Lt. Col. Brad Baeshore added.

Northern Lightning exercise 2016 is the largest F-35 training to date.

https://vimeo.com/181516255

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2016, 22:35
by spazsinbad
LM F-35 GM Weekly Update
01 Sep 2016 Jeff Babione

"Northern Lightning Exercise
As the F-35Cs returned to Pax River, 14 F-35As from Eglin were executing a two-week deployment as part of the Northern Lightning exercise in Wisconsin. The F-35As from the 58th Fighter Squadrons flew 102 out of 104 scheduled sorties with aircraft availability averaging 80 percent for the duration of the deployment. All 14 F-35As are operating with older 2B software, making these sortie and availability rates even more impressive.”..."

Source: https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... 9_1_16.pdf (0.7Mb)

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2016, 23:15
by neptune
deleted :wink:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2016, 23:38
by spazsinbad
'neptune' I'm not following. Why would the pilots influence the availability rate? Maintainers get this done - BZ. The pilot accepts the aircraft ready to go - or not - with the maintainers working hard to make it so.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2016, 03:39
by neptune
Dragon029 wrote:...
“These exercises allow us to practice full scale operations and they allow us to improve our own instructors so that when we go back to our school house to teach the newest students in the F-35, we can make them better and ultimately improve our combat capability as an Air Force,” Lt. Col. Brad Baeshore, Commander, 58th Fighter Squadron said.

The situations practiced provide extensive training and cohesiveness between joint military services.....Northern Lightning exercise 2016 is the largest F-35 training to date...


....most of these 14 (Sr.) F-35A (Instructors (teach the teachers)) were from Eglin EG and maybe one tail form Luke LF....
maybe to be expected, senior talent for this earliest of exercises.....hmmmm....... 8)

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2016, 03:41
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:'neptune' I'm not following. Why would the pilots influence the availability rate? Maintainers get this done - BZ. The pilot accepts the aircraft ready to go - or not - with the maintainers working hard to make it so.


..sorry, wrong link... :)

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2016, 03:05
by arian
-- The story says the squadron scored 110 kills against “enemy” aircraft, but again that averages out to 0.56 kills per aircraft per day, which is not really impressive.


Agree with the writer here. I'm totally not impressed. Losers.

/sarc

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2016, 14:25
by botsing
arian wrote:
-- The story says the squadron scored 110 kills against “enemy” aircraft, but again that averages out to 0.56 kills per aircraft per day, which is not really impressive.


Agree with the writer here. I'm totally not impressed. Losers.

/sarc

Yeah man, just like that looser called F-15 that only got 103 kills in 14,855 days making for an average of only 0.0069 kills per day.

/sarc

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 10 Sep 2016, 23:19
by popcorn
The detractors are being forced to reach further and further into the absurd and ridiculous... truly warms my heart. :D

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2016, 12:49
by mk82
arian wrote:
-- The story says the squadron scored 110 kills against “enemy” aircraft, but again that averages out to 0.56 kills per aircraft per day, which is not really impressive.


Agree with the writer here. I'm totally not impressed. Losers.

/sarc


I wonder which 4th generation platform achieved similar kill ratios (in a similar exercise).....oh wait.....none of them! :mrgreen:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2016, 22:36
by sersi
Perhaps by 2020 the internet fanboys will be touting how great the F-35 is and panning the B-21. :mrgreen:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 11 Sep 2016, 23:25
by sprstdlyscottsmn
mk82 wrote:
I wonder which 4th generation platform achieved similar kill ratios (in a similar exercise).....oh wait.....none of them! :mrgreen:

The book I read it in is packed, but I recall the F-15A pulled something crazy, along the lines of 200-5. Not too shabby by any measure. If anyone has "The Great Book of Modern Warplanes" they can fact check for me.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2016, 09:17
by Corsair1963
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mk82 wrote:
I wonder which 4th generation platform achieved similar kill ratios (in a similar exercise).....oh wait.....none of them! :mrgreen:

The book I read it in is packed, but I recall the F-15A pulled something crazy, along the lines of 200-5. Not too shabby by any measure. If anyone has "The Great Book of Modern Warplanes" they can fact check for me.


Yet, today the F-15 wouldn't fair any better than any other 4th Generation Fighter vs the F-35. Which, means it wouldn't last 5 seconds.... :shock:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2016, 09:20
by hornetfinn
botsing wrote:
arian wrote:
-- The story says the squadron scored 110 kills against “enemy” aircraft, but again that averages out to 0.56 kills per aircraft per day, which is not really impressive.


Agree with the writer here. I'm totally not impressed. Losers.

/sarc

Yeah man, just like that looser called F-15 that only got 103 kills in 14,855 days making for an average of only 0.0069 kills per day.

/sarc


Or how Operation Desert Storm was an utter failure on the Coalition part. They flew about 110,0000 sorties and only shot down less than 40 enemy aircraft. That equals less than 0.00036 kills per sortie, how pathetic... :bang:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 12 Sep 2016, 13:31
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Corsair1963 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mk82 wrote:
I wonder which 4th generation platform achieved similar kill ratios (in a similar exercise).....oh wait.....none of them! :mrgreen:

The book I read it in is packed, but I recall the F-15A pulled something crazy, along the lines of 200-5. Not too shabby by any measure. If anyone has "The Great Book of Modern Warplanes" they can fact check for me.


Yet, today the F-15 wouldn't fair any better than any other 4th Generation Fighter vs the F-35. Which, means it wouldn't last 5 seconds.... :shock:

I'm not saying it would. I'm saying that even when Forth Gen came out there were lopsided victories against third gen.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2016, 13:51
by sferrin
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I'm not saying it would. I'm saying that even when Forth Gen came out there were lopsided victories against third gen.


Yep. F-15s and F-16s cleaned house in Israeli service, and F-16s were kicking butt in exercises. (Gums probably has some stories.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mole_Cricket_19

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 13 Sep 2016, 20:20
by basher54321
Gums has mentioned an 80-1 at Lossiemouth Scotland (vs F-4 & Lightning) before in the early 80s and similar thing at the following Red Flag so would be great to hear more about that.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2019, 18:22
by doge
F-35 hunts Draken L-159E at Northern Lightning 2019. 8)
USAF Capt. Zachary Clements calls F-35 a supercomputer and praises the F-35's Range, Maneuverability, Stealth. 8)
https://wxow.com/news/top-stories/2019/ ... -exercise/
Practicing with the latest technology at Northern Lightning Exercise
August 13, 2019
VOLK FIELD, Wis. (WXOW) — Northern Lightning is an annual joint military exercises held at Volk Field Combat Readiness Training Center in Camp Douglas.

1,000 personnel from 20 different units will practice combat scenarios using some of the newest technology that the military has to offer. It’s the second installment of the exercise with the first happening in May. The primary goal for Northern Lightning is to get units working together and communicating with their technology, so they can be ready for combat scenarios.

F-35 combat fighter planes are some of the best in the world. These high tech planes among others are part of the focus in the exercise this year. These fifth generation combat strikers are some of the latest and greatest in the military. They are a step up from their counterpart, the F-16.

“It’s just a night and day difference, you can’t really compare the two,” said 58th Squadron Flight Commander Zachary Clements.

Clements has been flying in the Air Force since 2012, primarily with the F-16. Now, he’s inside an F-35, and it’s a whole new ball game.

“The best comparison is to look at vehicles that were made 35 years ago and think, would you want to still be driving that vehicle, or would you want to be driving a brand new vehicle,” said Clements.

One of the benefits of this fighter plane is its flight range and maneuverability during combat.

“They never see me really in a stealth airplane where they kind of always see you in an F-16, so essentially, what you get is if you can’t see me, you can’t shoot me, so I essentially get to shoot at you first,” said Clements.

That’s why pilots like Zachary are training now to communicate with other high tech planes and ground systems in a changing, modern world.

“In the days of old, the single unit of P-51s could fly and train together, but they didn’t really do a lot with the other airplanes that are out there, and they didn’t necessarily need to because they didn’t interact plane to plane or plane to ground like we do today,” said Col. Bart Van Roo, Exercise Director for Northern Lightning.

Northern Lightning runs until August 23 are involves the Marine Corps, Navy, Air Force, and National Guard. This specific exercise has been taking place since 2003.


https://www.channel3000.com/news/tactic ... 1108911066
Tactical training exercise gives us an inside look at what makes F-35 jets so special
By: Amanda Quintana Posted: Aug 13, 2019 The F-35 jets could soon come to Truax Field
CAMP DOUGLAS, Wis. - F-35 fighter jets are at Volk Field for the next week and a half, being used in the Northern Lightning exercise, a joint training including units from the Army, Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy using some of the world's most advanced aircraft.

The F-35 jets from the Air Force and Marines are training alongside F-22, F-16, EA-18 and C-130 aircraft to make sure the different generations of fighter jets can communicate in a realistic training environment.

Madison's Truax Field could soon be home to a squadron of F-35 jets as the current F-16 jet gets phased out.

"It’s like the brand-new airplane! Every nation in kind of the free world is buying into this thing and it’s awesome to be a part of that," said pilot Zachary Clements.

Clements is from Eglin Air Force Base in Florida. He started flying the F-35 in October 2017 after flying the F-16 for years.

"It’s not even a comparison really," said Clements. "You go from a 4th gen plane to a 5th gen aircraft. You have the stealth -- that’s kind of the game changing technology there."

He said the stealth feature of the F-35 allows the planes to be undetected, giving them the first-shot advantage.

"In the F-16 everybody saw me from hundreds of miles away probably, and so they could shoot me really whenever they wanted to. In the F-35 they can not see you, and if they can see you they can’t really shoot at you until it’s way late, and by that time you really have already taken multiple shots against them," said Clements.

He said the F-35 is more advanced, calling it a flying supercomputer.

"The F-16 was built 30 years ago. It doesn’t really matter how much you add to it, it can never really be kinda what the F-35 is," said Clements.

Exercise director Col. Bart Van Roo compared the F-16 to an old iPhone.

"You can upgrade it and it’ll work better, but it’s limited what processing power it has," said Van Roo. "The F-35 is really more like my iPhone 10 and was at least designed in the '90s so that it has a lot more expandable capabilities. So they built it with better technology, but they also built it to receive better technology."

A draft environmental impact report released recently shows if the F-35 jets come to Truax Field, it will significantly increase noise on the north side of the city, but Clements said the jets would make things easier for pilots.

The Wisconsin National Guard is currently accepting public comment about the environmental impacts. There is also a meeting on Sept. 12 at the Alliant Energy Center's Exhibition Hall.


https://defence-blog.com/news/u-s-air-f ... craft.html
U.S. Air Force F-35A fighters staged “hunt” for L-159 aircraft
Aug 15, 2019 in Aviation, News, Photo
U.S. Air Force F-35A Lightning II fifth-generation stealth fighters held a real hunt for Draken International’s L-159 Honey Badger multi-role aircraft during the Northern Lightning exercise at Volk Field, Wisconsin.

U.S. Air Force Airmen on its F-35A fighter jets assigned to the 33rd Fighter Wing take part in annual Northern Lightning exercise. August’s edition of the exercise is the second iteration of Northern Lightning this year, the first of which occurred in May.

Pilots and air crews participating in Northern Lightning can expect to operate in a contested environment with adversary aircraft, electronic jamming and simulated surface-to-air threats, and such training is critical to building readiness for the threats and missions the nation faces.

Northern Lightning is a tactical level, joint training exercise replicating today’s air battle space with current and future weapons platforms. A variety of the world’s most advanced aircraft including the F-35, F-22, F-16, EA-18, and C-130 will participate in the exercise.

Draken International, the adversary support contractor with the world’s largest private tactical jet air force also take part in the exercise.

Draken supports military training objectives around the globe, providing tremendous cost savings over the use of traditional military fighter assets. As an organization, Draken is uniquely positioned to answer the growing demand for contract air support.

The L-159E Honey Badger is a Boeing and Aero Vodochody designed single-seat, multi-role aircraft capable of supporting a variety of air-to-air, air-to-ground and reconnaissance missions. The L-159 Advanced Light Combat Aircraft (ALCA) are all virtually brand new 4th Generation fighters, which were specifically modified to meet Draken’s demanding performance requirements.

According to Draken’s website, the L-159 Honey Badger features a multi-mode 4th generation Leonardo Grifo-L radar that permits all-weather, day and night operations. The L-159E can also carry a wide range of US and NATO standard ordinance including air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles and laser-guided bombs. This aircraft can also carry the LITENING Pod and other specially designed Electronic Attack (EA) pods to satisfy a verity of customer requirements.


https://www.nbc15.com/content/news/Thou ... 16681.html
Thousands of troops train at Volk Field in Juneau County
By NBC15 Staff | Posted: Tue 10:32 PM, Aug 13, 2019
VOLK FIELD, Wis. (WMTV) - Nearly 1,000 boots are on the ground at Volk Field for Northern Lightning training Tuesday.

Northern Lightning runs from August 12 through the 23, and includes about 20 active-duty units from the Air Force, National Guard, Navy and Marine Corps.

This comes after a proposal to base F-35 fighter jets at Truax air field in Madison. That plan has not been finalized.

The military says the tactical-level training tries to replicate today's air battle space. Some of the military planes used in the training include the F-35, F-22, F-16, EA-18 and C-130.

"They've got a large overland airspace where they can put down simulated surface air threats that we can train against as well as have a lot of pre-planned actual threats like tanks,” says Zachary Clements, Flight Commander of the 58th Squadron.

The F-35 in particular, a 5th-generation stealth aircraft, compared to the aging F-16 - is a big upgrade.

"It takes all the different sensors around the aircraft combines those in a single picture then displays it on a touch screen,” Clements says.

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 26 Aug 2019, 15:42
by doge
20 enemy aircraft !?!? :shock: Too many...!! :doh:
https://www.eglin.af.mil/News/Article-D ... lightning/
Student pilots train in Northern Lightning
By Airman 1st Class Heather Leveille, 33rd Fighter Wing / Published August 26, 2019
VOLK FIELD AIR NATIONAL GUARD BASE, Wis. --
Student pilots from the 33rd Fighter Wing took their training on the road during joint force training exercise Northern Lightning here Aug. 12-23.

The goal of their involvement was to integrate fourth and fifth generation fighters, according to Capt. Emily Thompson, 33rd FW student pilot.

Northern Lightning is a joint training exercise between the Air Force, Air National Guard, Navy and Marine Corps, that tests fourth and fifth generation weapons platforms.

“The exercise is focused on air-to-surface integration and how our tactics work together with each other’s platforms to get the best results,” said Thompson.

Large scale exercises combined with joint forces can bring a unique training element for pilots at all skill levels.

“We are focusing on getting large force experience with F-35s," said Capt. Mitchell McKenzie, 33rd FW F-35A Lightning II student pilot. “The exercise we are here for is to build combat experience, because the more large-force exercises you have under your belt, the more likely you are to survive in a real combat scenario.”

The students at the 33rd FW are seasoned pilots making the jump to the fifth-generation stealth fighter. The wing’s flying training program helps pilots transition from one fighter jet to the next, based on skill level and flight hours.

“I am a part of the transition course at Eglin learning how to fly F-35,” said Thompson, who transitions from the F-16 to the F-35.

Joint training exercises allow pilots to work with many moving parts as well as a variety of aircraft.

“[The students] are here to build experience in the early stages of the program so that we can see what it looks like to have 20 enemy aircraft coming at you instead of the five or six we can normally get on a training basis back at home station,” said McKenzie.

Instructors try to give each class an opportunity to train in large scale exercises like Northern Lightning to enhance and help develop skill sets.

“The exercise gets you out of your comfort zone,” said McKenzie. “You fly so much at home you get comfy there, so it’s good to pack up and move, go to a new, unfamiliar place with unfamiliar procedures to help build your experience and confidence.”

The training and drive to be better than a peer can help bridge the confidence of working with different branches in the real-life combat settings.

“I feel I have gained a better understanding of how to work with other platforms,” said Thompson. “Any sort of integration training is a benefit to anyone’s growth as a pilot.”

The pilots from various platforms and branches worked together to combat adversary aircraft, electronic jamming and simulated surface-to-air threats.

“The mission is more complex,” said McKenzie. “More people to talk to on the radio and more agencies to check in with and it’s all to help simulate real-life combat.”

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2019, 18:17
by ricnunes
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
I'm saying that even when Forth Gen came out there were lopsided victories against third gen.


That's basically one of the main if not the main point of the reasoning behind most of my posts here in the F-35 forum:

- Everytime that a new generation comes up it will simply obliterate the older/previous generation, period! (see my signature below)
And this isn't/wasn't limited to the 5th versus 4th/4.5th gen.

So I find puzzling and amazing at the same time when I see/watch/read some people posting as if a 4th or 4.5th gen fighter aircraft could have any chance of parity when facing the F-35 (or the other 5th gen fighter aircraft, the F-22) - This is like saying that a Gloster Gladiator could have a chance of parity when facing a Spitfire :doh:

Re: Exercise Northern Lightning Overview [F-35As + others]

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 02:40
by spazsinbad
Lots of text at jump to video URL (repeat from an off-topic thread) + https://www.acc.af.mil/About-Us/Female-Aviators/

Meet Female F-35A Fighter Pilot Student at Northern Lightning Exercise 19-2: Capt. Emily Thompson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC9Q3K4hesw