Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2013, 17:48
by spazsinbad
Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet 31 Dec 2013 Dave Majumdar
"The Lockheed Martin F-35C Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) will be the eyes and ears of the fleet inside highly contested airspace when it enters the U.S. Navy’s arsenal in large numbers in the 2030s.

“Let’s say we’re in an anti-access environment and we’re going to go deep, we would launch all the airplanes off, get them all set, and we would push the F-35C way inside,” Rear Adm. Mike Manazir, the Navy’s director of air warfare told USNI News on Dec. 20. “He would go in there using his X-band stealth technology, and go in there and he would get radar contacts and surface contacts and would ID them for us.”

Under the service’s forthcoming Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) network, Manazir said targets discovered by the F-35C’s advanced sensor suite would be passed back to a Northrop Grumman E-2D to be shared with the rest of the carrier strike group. Further, F-35Cs flying deep inside enemy territory would also play a key role in providing terminal guidance for long-range stand-off weapons launched by other platforms such as Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet or a warship.

However, the F-35C will need some data-link modifications, which are expected for the jet’s Block IV configuration, to perform the role the Navy intends for it. While the current version of the Link-16 data-link does not have enough of a low probably of intercept capability that would allow it to be used inside highly contested airspace, the Navy is working on a solution.

“They’re working right now, because it is a follow-on development item, Lockheed Martin is working with other contractors to make that capability happen,” Manazir said. “We need to have that link capability that the enemy can’t find and then it can’t jam.”

In order to extend the F-35C’s range, the Navy hopes to refuel the stealthy new fighter from the service’s future Unmanned Carrier Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) aircraft, Manazir said. While the UCLASS would not be as stealthy as the F-35C, it could accompany the JSF into some of the more modestly contested high threat environments.

But the Navy has never operated a stealthy aircraft with the kinds of sensors found onboard the F-35C before. In order to learn how to best utilize the new fighter, one of the first units to receive the F-35C will be the Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center (NSAWC)—which is the home of the Navy’s famous TOPGUN school.

“One of the earliest places we’re going to put Joint Strike Fighter is at NSAWC,” Manazir said. “We’ll operate them out at [Naval Air Station] Fallon [Nevada] and be able to develop those tactics real-time on the range with Block II AESA [Active Electronically Scanned Array] F/A-18Es and Fs and F-35Cs.”

Moreover, because all three F-35 variants have the same mission systems, the Navy is working very closely with the U.S. Marine Corps to develop tactics, techniques and procedures (TTPs) for the JSF. Manazir noted that the USMC would operate the F-35C from the Navy’s Nimitz and Ford-class supercarriers in addition to the F-35B, which will be operated from amphibious assault ships.

“We’ll be able to exploit the advantages of both kinds of aircraft,” Manazir said.
Right now the Marines are ahead of the Navy in developing the concepts of operation for the F-35.

Manazir described a recent long-range air dominance simulation exercise in which there were Marine Corps weapons officers flying the F-35C.

“They’re kind of at the leading edge of tactics development,” Manazir said. “They’re helping us into the future.”"

http://news.usni.org/2013/12/31/f-35c-w ... ears-fleet

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2014, 04:34
by Corsair1963
You can bet the second all of the Hornets are replaced by F-35B/C's. Then the USN will find reasons to continue purchasing F-35C's and/or UCLASS to replace the current fleet of Super Hornets.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2014, 13:56
by neptune
Corsair1963 wrote:You can bet the second all of the Hornets are replaced by F-35B/C's. Then the USN will find reasons to continue purchasing F-35C's and/or UCLASS to replace the current fleet of Super Hornets.


F/A-18C/D
MTOW-51,900 lb
Range-1,089 nmi

F-35C
MTOW-70,000 lb
Range-1,400 nmi

F/A-18E/F
MTOW-66,000 lb
Range-1,275 nmi

Happy New Year! :)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2014, 15:08
by f35phixer
In order to extend the F-35C’s range, the Navy hopes to refuel the stealthy new fighter from the service’s future Unmanned Carrier Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) aircraft, Manazir said. While the UCLASS would not be as stealthy as the F-35C, it could accompany the JSF into some of the more modestly contested high threat environments.

guess i won't be going over there anytime. not going to work a refuel platform :bang:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2014, 02:55
by maus92
"However, the F-35C will need some data-link modifications, which are expected for the jet’s Block IV configuration, to perform the role the Navy intends for it. While the current version of the Link-16 data-link does not have enough of a low probably of intercept capability that would allow it to be used inside highly contested airspace, the Navy is working on a solution.

“They’re working right now, because it is a follow-on development item, Lockheed Martin is working with other contractors to make that capability happen,” Manazir said. “We need to have that link capability that the enemy can’t find and then it can’t jam.”"

Note that a new waveform / datalink technology will be needed to transfer data back to the E-2D with LPI. It will not be MADL due to range limitations. Probably satcom in the interim, something TBD in later blocks, considering that the E-2s and Tritons - and probably Growlers - will need to be modified.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2014, 03:20
by maus92
Corsair1963 wrote:You can bet the second all of the Hornets are replaced by F-35B/C's. Then the USN will find reasons to continue purchasing F-35C's and/or UCLASS to replace the current fleet of Super Hornets.


By the time SH need to be replaced, it will be with the F/A-XX, whose program gets serious shortly. F-35C is already slated to be purchased in limited numbers (nowhere near the 600+ or so SHs by 2017/8), and due to combined effects of sequestration, greater than planned cost, and new technology - UCLASS being an unknown when the Navy's 260 C's were forecast - probably much fewer than 340 F-35Cs will be acquired. UCLASS is more of a competitor to F-35 than it is to SH.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2014, 03:36
by Corsair1963
maus92 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You can bet the second all of the Hornets are replaced by F-35B/C's. Then the USN will find reasons to continue purchasing F-35C's and/or UCLASS to replace the current fleet of Super Hornets.


By the time SH need to be replaced, it will be with the F/A-XX, whose program gets serious shortly. F-35C is already slated to be purchased in limited numbers (nowhere near the 600+ or so SHs by 2017/8), and due to combined effects of sequestration, greater than planned cost, and new technology - UCLASS being an unknown when the Navy's 260 C's were forecast - probably much fewer than 340 F-35Cs will be acquired. UCLASS is more of a competitor to F-35 than it is to SH.



The F/A-XX if it ever happens is 20-30 years off.........

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2014, 22:52
by popcorn
Corsair1963 wrote:
maus92 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:You can bet the second all of the Hornets are replaced by F-35B/C's. Then the USN will find reasons to continue purchasing F-35C's and/or UCLASS to replace the current fleet of Super Hornets.


By the time SH need to be replaced, it will be with the F/A-XX, whose program gets serious shortly. F-35C is already slated to be purchased in limited numbers (nowhere near the 600+ or so SHs by 2017/8), and due to combined effects of sequestration, greater than planned cost, and new technology - UCLASS being an unknown when the Navy's 260 C's were forecast - probably much fewer than 340 F-35Cs will be acquired. UCLASS is more of a competitor to F-35 than it is to SH.



The F/A-XX if it ever happens is 20-30 years off.........

Yep. If the SH Mafia and other detractors had had their way, the Navy would have essentially been deaf and ,blind, seriously handicapped in it's ability to operate in denied airspace. The CONOPs described by Adm.Manazir highlight how the Navy will leverage the new jet's inherent strengths in stealth, SA and networking to shape the future battlespace, something the legacy Navy jets simply cannot hope to match. Let others nitpick e.g. acceleration, STR, poor cockpit visibility, etc. but their FUD arguments are really of little consequence in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2014, 18:41
by maus92
popcorn wrote:Yep. If the SH Mafia and other detractors had had their way, the Navy would have essentially been deaf and ,blind, seriously handicapped in it's ability to operate in denied airspace. The CONOPs described by Adm.Manazir highlight how the Navy will leverage the new jet's inherent strengths in stealth, SA and networking to shape the future battlespace, something the legacy Navy jets simply cannot hope to match. Let others nitpick e.g. acceleration, STR, poor cockpit visibility, etc. but their FUD arguments are really of little consequence in the grand scheme of things.


Funny, when air forces want to operate in denied airspace, they call the Navy to provide electronic measures to defeat AD systems.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2014, 21:39
by popcorn
maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:Yep. If the SH Mafia and other detractors had had their way, the Navy would have essentially been deaf and ,blind, seriously handicapped in it's ability to operate in denied airspace. The CONOPs described by Adm.Manazir highlight how the Navy will leverage the new jet's inherent strengths in stealth, SA and networking to shape the future battlespace, something the legacy Navy jets simply cannot hope to match. Let others nitpick e.g. acceleration, STR, poor cockpit visibility, etc. but their FUD arguments are really of little consequence in the grand scheme of things.


Funny, when air forces want to operate in denied airspace, they call the Navy to provide electronic measures to defeat AD systems.

The times they are a-changin'... AF recognizes the value of EW nd Growler can continue to provide some,service in stand-off mode but the future belongs to those who can venture where oldies cannot.. continuing the LO paradigm RQ-180 supporting LRS-B..

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2014, 11:47
by cantaz
maus92 wrote:Funny, when air forces want to operate in denied airspace, they call the Navy to provide electronic measures to defeat AD systems.


Jamming alone only goes so far. And when the Navy needs substantial airborne ISR for mission planning, or deep strikes in denied airspace beyond what can be enabled through jamming (i.e. via stealth aircraft), it calls the USAF.

Now the Navy's getting the F-35C, the Navy will be better rounded and less dependent on the USAF, while the USAF is still without its own dedicated jammers for the near future. No one is downplaying the Navy's Growlers, rather it's a question of who can get the most out of Growler support. Growler + F-35C is simply superior to Growler + SH, given that the F-35C's stealth and own substantial EW capability allows the Growlers to devote more time and energy to non-radar EW targets. Until the F-35C gets jammer pods, Growler + F-35C is more versatile than purely F-35C.

The F-35C benefits the Navy immensely, despite all the irrational kicking and screaming about it from some corners.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2014, 17:15
by maus92
cantaz wrote:
maus92 wrote:Funny, when air forces want to operate in denied airspace, they call the Navy to provide electronic measures to defeat AD systems.


Jamming alone only goes so far. And when the Navy needs substantial airborne ISR for mission planning, or deep strikes in denied airspace beyond what can be enabled through jamming (i.e. via stealth aircraft), it calls the USAF.

Now the Navy's getting the F-35C, the Navy will be better rounded and less dependent on the USAF, while the USAF is still without its own dedicated jammers for the near future. No one is downplaying the Navy's Growlers, rather it's a question of who can get the most out of Growler support. Growler + F-35C is simply superior to Growler + SH, given that the F-35C's stealth and own substantial EW capability allows the Growlers to devote more time and energy to non-radar EW targets. Until the F-35C gets jammer pods, Growler + F-35C is more versatile than purely F-35C.

The F-35C benefits the Navy immensely, despite all the irrational kicking and screaming about it from some corners.


Or, the Navy shoots TLAMs or its successor.

"Growler + F-35C is more versatile than purely F-35C." An admission I didn't expect to see, despite all the irrational kicking and screaming about it from some corners.

Growler + UCLASS is more versatile than F-35C is something else to consider. UCLASS will be able to fulfill LRS, plus a slew of other mundane functions, which makes it a better value than a mess of F-35Cs. Expect fewer F-35Cs to be procured if the F-35 mafia in the DoD can be stifled.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2014, 19:53
by KamenRiderBlade
Why doesn't the AF just acquire a bunch of Growlers and use it?

Instead of developing a brand new EW platform, just use an existing one.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 04 Jan 2014, 20:45
by spazsinbad
'maus92' do not be coy. Who is doing this about what/when/why?
"...despite all the irrational kicking and screaming about it from some corners...."

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2014, 01:59
by cantaz
maus92 wrote:"Growler + F-35C is more versatile than purely F-35C." An admission I didn't expect to see, despite all the irrational kicking and screaming about it from some corners.


What in the world are you talking about? There is a general consensus on this forum that standoff jammers are valuable. Right now that means the Growlers. Your insinuation that people here undermine the value of the Growler is a strawman.

Growler + UCLASS is more versatile than F-35C is something else to consider. UCLASS will be able to fulfill LRS, plus a slew of other mundane functions, which makes it a better value than a mess of F-35Cs. Expect fewer F-35Cs to be procured if the F-35 mafia in the DoD can be stifled.


F-35 mafia? You seem to be slipping closer and closer to being a POGO mouthpiece with every post.

Given the still wildly swinging requirement for the UCLASS, with the current most robust requirement still asking for less stealth and strike than the F-35, while taking a massive size increase, you're simply suggesting packing the decks with less capability.

It's pretty clear which corner of this room is actually kicking and screaming.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2014, 02:33
by popcorn
Funny Maus mentions TLAMs.. wasn't there a report recently about a F-22 updating a Navy cruise missile in flight, presumably simulating a vignette from within hostile airspace where legacy jets would be compromised? Something the F-35 will excel at as well.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2014, 02:56
by Corsair1963
Does the F-35A/B/C really need the Growler in the support role???

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2014, 03:10
by count_to_10
kamenriderblade wrote:Why doesn't the AF just acquire a bunch of Growlers and use it?

Instead of developing a brand new EW platform, just use an existing one.

Makes me think of "Why didn't the AF just acquire a bunch of Tomcats instead of developing the Eagle?"

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2014, 20:51
by maus92
popcorn wrote:Funny Maus mentions TLAMs.. wasn't there a report recently about a F-22 updating a Navy cruise missile in flight, presumably simulating a vignette from within hostile airspace where legacy jets would be compromised? Something the F-35 will excel at as well.


Just about any Navy platform (or ground unit) can conceivably repurpose a TLAM if properly equipped.

Insert "RQ-180" for "F-35" and "F-22." That's the platform that will be doing the initial, first few days of war ISR work. Much stealthier than F-35, and probably even F-22. The RQ-180 / LRS-B team will be busting doors, along with TLAMs and long range payloads from the UCLASS platform, with Growlers in support. Once the primary IADS nodes, comm centers and datalinks are disrupted, the tactical fighters can move in to deal with isolated AD nodes and conventional target sets.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 05 Jan 2014, 23:31
by popcorn
maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:
Just about any Navy platform (or ground unit) can conceivably repurpose a TLAM if properly equipped.
.


Care to list which Navy platforms can venture into denied airspace to get said job done? Also, last I heard RQ-180 is Air Force so I guess Navy will be calling on the Former for help,rather than the other way around.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2014, 16:54
by southernphantom
cantaz wrote:
maus92 wrote:"Growler + F-35C is more versatile than purely F-35C." An admission I didn't expect to see, despite all the irrational kicking and screaming about it from some corners.


What in the world are you talking about? There is a general consensus on this forum that standoff jammers are valuable. Right now that means the Growlers. Your insinuation that people here undermine the value of the Growler is a strawman.

Growler + UCLASS is more versatile than F-35C is something else to consider. UCLASS will be able to fulfill LRS, plus a slew of other mundane functions, which makes it a better value than a mess of F-35Cs. Expect fewer F-35Cs to be procured if the F-35 mafia in the DoD can be stifled.


F-35 mafia? You seem to be slipping closer and closer to being a POGO mouthpiece with every post.

Given the still wildly swinging requirement for the UCLASS, with the current most robust requirement still asking for less stealth and strike than the F-35, while taking a massive size increase, you're simply suggesting packing the decks with less capability.

It's pretty clear which corner of this room is actually kicking and screaming.


It looks like the Navy wants UCLASS to be something like the old proposed Common Support Aircraft that was supposed to replace the S-3. Once someone realized that submarines weren't the primary threat, the S-3 was employed as a long-range bomber. As I see it, UCLASS is CSA, just a bit late. Expect talk of EW/ISR payloads. Hell, I half-suspect that someone will pitch it as a supplement to the E-2.

Your accusation of 'less capability' is incorrect. The Navy doesn't want an A-12, it wants some kind of support and ISR platform. UCLASS will, bluntly, offer potentially massive range and/or endurance, allowing strikes from beyond the range of the anti-access/area-denial weapons the Navy has been so concerned about.

I could see F-35C+/FA-XX/UCLASS/MH-60 making up the carrier air wing in thirty years.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2014, 22:57
by cantaz
Your accusation of 'less capability' is incorrect. The Navy doesn't want an A-12, it wants some kind of support and ISR platform. UCLASS will, bluntly, offer potentially massive range and/or endurance, allowing strikes from beyond the range of the anti-access/area-denial weapons the Navy has been so concerned about.


It remains to be seen what the USN will get out of the UCLASS. One of the recent reports described a concept that's larger than the F-35, less stealth and with a smaller payload. There seems to be a battle going on over the exact capability mix of the UCLASS. I for one sees its strike capability as tertiary and an insufficient reason for cost or size growth. Otherwise, I very much appreciate the UCLASS as a persistent ISR.

Then you have maus, who's looking for any possible reason to have fewer Cs on the carrier, up to and including having the UCLASS as some sort of A-12 replacement. Hence my comment about less capability: an enlarged UCLASS is not there to replace the Cs. Attempts to alter the ratio to less Cs for more UCLASS seems like a bad idea. The UCLASS is better as an enabler for strikers, not replacements for them. And I'm not sure the advantages of using a bigger UCLASS for long range strikes is enough justification for the additional cost, vis-à-vis a ship or sub-launched cruise missile cued by a smaller UCLASS.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2014, 23:37
by popcorn
IMO it makes little sense for UCLASS to duplicate the strike mission that the C is already optimized for. An inefficient use of resources. Better value is achieved by complementing and enabling the C jet via offboard data links to help build a comprehensive picture of the battlespace. The ability to pass on fuel at distance is intriguing and a game winner IMO,specially in the context of ASB/Pacific Pivot.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 06:12
by archeman
southernphantom wrote:
It looks like the Navy wants UCLASS to be something like the old proposed Common Support Aircraft that was supposed to replace the S-3. Once someone realized that submarines weren't the primary threat, the S-3 was employed as a long-range bomber. As I see it, UCLASS is CSA, just a bit late. Expect talk of EW/ISR payloads. Hell, I half-suspect that someone will pitch it as a supplement to the E-2.

Your accusation of 'less capability' is incorrect. The Navy doesn't want an A-12, it wants some kind of support and ISR platform. UCLASS will, bluntly, offer potentially massive range and/or endurance, allowing strikes from beyond the range of the anti-access/area-denial weapons the Navy has been so concerned about.

I could see F-35C+/FA-XX/UCLASS/MH-60 making up the carrier air wing in thirty years.


If true that is a very smart play for UCLASS. Let others work out how to make Remotes firball-combat ready and keep your fleet doing combat support tasks that these aircraft types are sure to succeed at.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 18:37
by neptune
archeman wrote:
southernphantom wrote:....I could see F-35C+/FA-XX/UCLASS/MH-60 making up the carrier air wing in thirty years...



As the fleet of Hornets departs and the F-35C arrives the SBug is up for replacement by the FA/XX. Many on this website will attest, that the final design(s) of the F-35C have yet to be defined but the basic design is flying. The FA/XX is yet to achieve basic design and is more prone to impact/ inclusion from the UCLASS as it's role is also yet to be designed. The yearners for the SBUG(soupped-up) is a pipe dream, the SBug is old and getting long in the tooth, thus the FA/XX. The FA/XX must minimally implement the updated sensors and mission system of the F-35A/B/C and the latest weapons, more efficient(/ powerful) engines and most controversial (F-35C stealth/ or not). Will it be a fighter/ interceptor (A) or a long-range attack/ bomber (B), one version or two?, too soon to tell. Like it or not the F-35C is here and will be on the flight deck beside the SBug. UCLASS, on the other hand; may be a blimp sized refueler, missle mule, high altitude comm.node/ radar platform or a sprite fighter, or all of the above in several versions; who knows?? :2c:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 19:26
by spazsinbad
I'm waiting for a twin jet engine 'UCLASS' COD (designed for pressurization perhaps later but otherwise) a 'simple' large container for large bits & pieces to be flown long range to the carrier. Of course it doubles as a large air refueller as required. Self Loading Freight (perhaps in seats) will come later, along with pressurization, once the concept proven. Long range will mean a lot for UCLASS generally because then it can come and go in any numbers to the carrier as required and then go home / come back with no FCLP/CarQual or the like. :D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2014, 23:12
by neurotech
spazsinbad wrote:I'm waiting for a twin jet engine 'UCLASS' COD (designed for pressurization perhaps later but otherwise) a 'simple' large container for large bits & pieces to be flown long range to the carrier. Of course it doubles as a large air refueller as required. Self Loading Freight (perhaps in seats) will come later, along with pressurization, once the concept proven. Long range will mean a lot for UCLASS generally because then it can come and go in any numbers to the carrier as required and then go home / come back with no FCLP/CarQual or the like. :D

I realize for the COD pilots it might not be the most glamorous ride in the Navy, but I think it'll be a while before UCLASS or even JPALS assisted carrier landings would be trusted with passengers not sitting in Martin-Baker ejection seats. With ACLS and JPALS (F/A-18 for shipboard testing) then if things go really wrong, ejecting out is an option. COD doesn't have ejection seats.

The recent X-47B tests looked good on video but behind the scenes the CO, CAG, CAG LSO, PEO etc. were really nervous during the tests. If the X-47B had an unsafe lineup deviation and/or cut pass then people could be killed. The risks were minimized through the various test phases but not eliminated. What wasn't shown on the tape was the F/A-18s did many practice approaches with JPALS (& datalinks) so the LSOs could be sure they could safely send the JPALS equipped jets around within an acceptable waveoff window.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 00:23
by spazsinbad
'neurotech' I think it has been made clear over time through various stories posted here on the X-47B thread that the system was tested thoroughly. Some will be aware that generally the ship captain is responsible ultimately for what happens to his ship; so if anyone was interested in the safety of X-47B that person has been identified. :D

Just to show how safe everyone thought the X-47B really was we had the SecNav/CNO and sundry hangers on goofing off on the LSO platform. That must have been helpful. So where was the worry again; or were the Hornet mafia trying to feed the bigwigs to the fishes? :doh:

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews ... .hires.jpg

"130710-N-YZ751-426 ATLANTIC OCEAN (July 10, 2013) Secretary of the Navy (SECNAV) Ray Mabus and Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) Adm. Jonathan Greenert, observe an X-47B Unmanned Combat Air System (UCAS) demonstrator preparing to make an arrested landing on the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77), July 10. George H.W. Bush is the first aircraft carrier to recover an unmanned aircraft at sea. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Tony D. Curtis/Released)"


So I think you make mountains where nothing needs to exist. Sure every system will be checked thoroughly and the X-47B was, and is still being tested thoroughly, as one would expect.

My comments on a robot COD deliberately excluded passengers (SLFs) because of the worries you expressed. I wonder what happens when a COD manned by pilots goes down? Do they flap outrageously? Sure passenger carrying robot aircraft are a long way off; but who knows the future. One thing that apparently irks the anti-V22fers is that the aircraft is not pressurised but now we can add those passengers cannot eject can we? Who knew.

Added Video Link to show accuracy of X-47B each and every time:


Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 02:04
by count_to_10
Autonomous aircraft will carry passengers when the risk of having a human pilot becomes unacceptable.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 02:26
by neurotech
Sorry if I overreacted. I misread the part about excluding SLF from the robot COD.

I knew the SecNav was on the LSO platform. I didn't say it was unsafe, just suggesting that the senior officers involved were nervous because unforeseen circumstances can't be programmed into the flight systems. The unforeseen factors is why remotely piloted passenger aircraft will be a while off.

@count_to_10: More like expense of a "human" pilot. In the Navy, it still costs a lot of money to train and keep pilots carrier qualified. For non-human cargo, and patrol aircraft, going autonomous will save money.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 03:34
by spazsinbad
'neurotech' fair enough. I thought you had something mixed up. People will be worried about robot NavAvers for some time to come. A history of safe ops has to be achieved. It seems to me that that history is well on the way with a lot more to come. OMG :twisted: human pilots do not always do so well n'est pas?

It seems to me there are equivalent safe guards comparable to human deck landing ops (which do not always work perfectly either - plenty of APPROACH stories in that regard - LSOs worry about their screw ups all the time - so should everyone). At least the ROBOT will not be worried - Day/NIGHT! :devil:

The next UCLASS should be named after Alfred E. Neumann "Wot? Me Worry?" :D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 03:58
by neurotech
spazsinbad wrote:'neurotech' fair enough. I thought you had something mixed up. People will be worried about robot NavAvers for some time to come. A history of safe ops has to be achieved. It seems to me that that history is well on the way with a lot more to come. OMG :twisted: human pilots do not always do so well n'est pas?

It seems to me there are equivalent safe guards comparable to human deck landing ops (which do not always work perfectly either - plenty of APPROACH stories in that regard - LSOs worry about their screw ups all the time - so should everyone). At least the ROBOT will not be worried - Day/NIGHT! :devil:

The next UCLASS should be named after Alfred E. Neumann "Wot? Me Worry?" :D

Commercial Aviation would be a lot safer if they had LSOs for emergency or maginal weather conditions. At least have a PLAT camera so somebody in the tower can visual see the aircraft is lined up and on glide path.

Two recent crashes (Asiana 214 at SFO & Southwest 235 at LGA) could have been avoided if they did a missed approach and tried again. It's likely that human factors played a major role in both crashes.

Speaking of human deck landing ops. I was watching a video of a F/A-18E flown by the Squadron CO (Cmdr. Fravor) with a major pitching deck and landing on the first approach. The conditions were so bad they were using manual MOVLAS "ball" and I'm pretty sure that if they'd tried to land on ACLS, the jet would have chased the glidepath and probably been waved off. The F-35C is significantly better at adjusting glidepath behind the boat.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 04:19
by spazsinbad
As mentioned before I think - that CO is a good bloke to take the tanker from the nugget on a bad night and get some difficult night landing for himself. Newbies need to be nurtured in a good environment.

"This video is not available in your country."


As for pilots crashing their aircraft on a fine and beaut day? They need to learn how to fly. Just letting the automatics do the job is not good enough. Every commercial pilot needs to know how to fly and should be able to practice that regularly - if not on their regular aircraft for real - at least on a light aircraft so that they know and practice the basics. Landing visually in ideal conditions should be a no brainer - apparently not for some Korean Airline pilots.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 05:55
by popcorn
It would be unlikely though for a robot to land at the wrong airport...? :D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2014, 07:43
by popcorn
Projected range increases for JSF variants with Israeli-designed EFTs and AETD-derived engine. IMO, if UCLASS is configured to take/receive fuel, it can function as a connector, shuttling between KC-46 and B/C jets deep in hostile airspace, extending their time on station even further. 1


http://www.sldinfo.com/what-are-the-nex ... r-warfare/

F-35 Version Base Combat Radius With Drop Tanks With Enhanced Engine
CTOL. 584 NMI. 770 NMI 885 NMI
STOVL 469 NMI 655 NMI 753 NMI
CV 615 NMI 801 NMI 921 NMI

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2014, 00:54
by count_to_10
neurotech wrote:@count_to_10: More like expense of a "human" pilot. In the Navy, it still costs a lot of money to train and keep pilots carrier qualified. For non-human cargo, and patrol aircraft, going autonomous will save money.

Which will be when the insurance companies decide its too risky to insure human pilots cheaply. :wink:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2014, 03:37
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:Projected range increases for JSF variants with Israeli-designed EFTs and AETD-derived engine. IMO, if UCLASS is configured to take/receive fuel, it can function as a connector, shuttling between KC-46 and B/C jets deep in hostile airspace, extending their time on station even further. 1


http://www.sldinfo.com/what-are-the-nex ... r-warfare/

F-35 Version Base Combat Radius With Drop Tanks With Enhanced Engine
CTOL. 584 NMI. 770 NMI 885 NMI
STOVL 469 NMI 655 NMI 753 NMI
CV 615 NMI 801 NMI 921 NMI



What ever happened with the CFT's that Israel was suppose to develop for the F-35???

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2014, 05:28
by popcorn
Corsair1963 wrote:
popcorn wrote:Projected range increases for JSF variants with Israeli-designed EFTs and AETD-derived engine. IMO, if UCLASS is configured to take/receive fuel, it can function as a connector, shuttling between KC-46 and B/C jets deep in hostile airspace, extending their time on station even further. 1


http://www.sldinfo.com/what-are-the-nex ... r-warfare/

F-35 Version Base Combat Radius With Drop Tanks With Enhanced Engine
CTOL. 584 NMI. 770 NMI 885 NMI
STOVL 469 NMI 655 NMI 753 NMI
CV 615 NMI 801 NMI 921 NMI



What ever happened with the CFT's that Israel was suppose to develop for the F-35???


I don't think CFTs were in the mix, rather EFTs with jettisonable pylons

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2014, 07:21
by spazsinbad
Yes the External Fuel Tanks with Jettisonable Pylons have been mentioned a few times with this added attraction (mentioned earlier in the EFT/CFT thread)....

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... ozi#218540
&
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=24168&hilit=Egozi

Israel to boost range of future F-35 fleet 11 Jan 2008 Arie Egozi
"The Israeli air force wants to increase the operational range of its future fleet of 100 Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighters by adding new external fuel tanks that are already being developed by domestic companies.

Elbit Systems subsidiary Cyclone Aviation is offering to supply external tanks to be carried on the F-35's under-wing hardpoints, while Israel Aerospace Industries plans to produce conformal fuel tanks for the Israeli fighters.

Israel's air force recently completed the design of a unique F-35 version optimised for its mission requirements, but further details remain highly classified...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... et-220748/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2014, 02:49
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:Yes the External Fuel Tanks with Jettisonable Pylons have been mentioned a few times with this added attraction (mentioned earlier in the EFT/CFT thread)....

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... ozi#218540
&
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=24168&hilit=Egozi

Israel to boost range of future F-35 fleet 11 Jan 2008 Arie Egozi
"The Israeli air force wants to increase the operational range of its future fleet of 100 Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighters by adding new external fuel tanks that are already being developed by domestic companies.

Elbit Systems subsidiary Cyclone Aviation is offering to supply external tanks to be carried on the F-35's under-wing hardpoints, while Israel Aerospace Industries plans to produce conformal fuel tanks for the Israeli fighters.

Israel's air force recently completed the design of a unique F-35 version optimised for its mission requirements, but further details remain highly classified...."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... et-220748/


Well, considering the large internal fuel carried by the F-35. Which, can be increased with External Fuel Tanks and CFT's, The Lightning should have little issue with range. In addition in the future we maybe have Stealthy UCAV's acting as Mid-Air Refuelers!

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2014, 15:53
by southernphantom
This tells me that the Israelis want a hedge against future IADS that may render traditional tankers unworkable. A fully tanked-out F-35- especially if the tanks have minimal RCS- would be able to perform nuclear strikes across the region. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the true reason for the upgrades.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2014, 13:59
by quicksilver
Lemme get this right --

We're using a 6 yr old press article as the basis for this discussion?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2014, 18:58
by spazsinbad
Hmmm... 'Corsair1963 jumped in late with this question: "What ever happened with the CFT's that Israel was suppose to develop for the F-35???" So we drugged up the 6 year old. End of story. Then the 'SouthernPhantomie' jumped in - a bit late probably and then after light years your goodself. I dunno but I do not think the six year old is the basis YMMV. :bang:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2014, 19:53
by neptune
quicksilver wrote:Lemme get this right --We're using a 6 yr old press article as the basis for this discussion?



"Operation Babylon, was a surprise Israeli air strike carried out on 7 June 1981, that destroyed a nuclear reactor under construction 17 kilometers (10.5 miles) southeast of Baghdad, Iraq.

Iranian nuclear reactors are a bit further, thus the need (CFT, maybe??) for greater range! :)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Feb 2014, 00:12
by quicksilver
Six year old article. Sounds like Sweetman…"back in 2003…someone said [this]".

:roll:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2014, 10:43
by spazsinbad
F-35 Offers Dream Capabilities for Pilots Who Have Flown It 11 Feb 2014 Robert K. Ackerman
“Ease of operation and new technologies outweigh the problems that remain to be solved for the expensive Lightning II....

...Four pilots sitting on a Tuesday panel at West 2014, co-sponsored by AFCEA International and the U.S. Naval Institute and being held February 11-13 in San Diego, discussed the state of the F-35 program as well as the jet’s prognosis. Lt. Cmdr. Michael Burks, USN, senior Navy test pilot for the F-35 and integrated test force operations officer, described the aircraft as having “unbelievable flying qualities” and being easy to fly. Cmdr. Luke Barradell, USN, operations officer, Carrier Air Wing 11, said that the aircraft is “very docile” in the administrative phased of flight, and it is going to be a delight to fly off carriers....

...Cmdr. Burks offered that the aircraft’s technologies will change the way air missions are carried out. Equipped with a plethora of sensors and datalinks, the vehicle offers a range of potential alternitives with the synergy it brings to the battlespace. “In the future, it may not matter where the weapon comes from,” the commander said of a bombing run. “I may pass the data along, or I may fire a weapon and it may come from somewhere else. That is where we are heading.”

Still, the F-35’s advanced technologies are offering some unforeseen challenges. Its low-observable stealth material will require different handling than traditional carrier aircraft. Cdr. Burks said here will have to be a “paradigm shift out in the fleet” to maintain its low observability. “No longer can we allow these aircraft to get grimy at sea” as was the practice with conventional jet aircraft, he observed. Gigliotti said that sailors and Marines have been developing new practices for that purpose. The incredibly noisy engine also will change life for deck crews during takeoff, Cmdr. Burks added, saying they probably will need noise cancellation earphones.”

http://www.afcea.org/content/?q=node/12336

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2014, 19:54
by neptune
[quote="spazsinbad.... “No longer can we allow these aircraft to get grimy at sea” as was the practice with conventional jet aircraft, he observed....”[/quote]

You've seen nothing yet!, America's greatest innovations come when massive effort is implemented in escaping the dreaded "scrubbing detail". :lol:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2014, 20:08
by spazsinbad
Our old carrier had short supply of fresh water so any scrubbing was minimal.

Depends on the situations encountered by the F-35B/Cs I guess. Probably aircraft will be struck below more often to minimise exposure to any potential corrosion. Pity there was not expansion on what was meant by the comment. “No longer can we allow these aircraft to get grimy at sea” as was the practice with conventional jet aircraft, he observed. Gigliotti said that sailors and Marines have been developing new practices for that purpose." It has been made clear from the start that the aircraft has been designed to deal with issues at sea (which all three benefit from). What new practices are being developed?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 04:00
by spazsinbad
Youse read the script above now see the video: ONE HOUR VIDEO Apparently!

Video: Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say? 12 Feb 2014
"Joint Strike Fighter Roundtable: What Do Pilots Who Are Flying It Today Have to Say? at the WEST 2014 Conference. Moderator: Mr. Ward Carroll, Editor-in-Chief, Military.com Panelists: - LCDR Michael Burks, Senior Navy Test Pilot for F-35 - CDR Frederick Crecelius, Commanding Officer, VFA-101 - William Gigliotti, F-35 Lighting II, FW Site/Production Lead Test Pilot Lockheed Martin Corporation - LtCol Steve Gillette, Commander Officer, VMFA-121. (1hr)"

http://www.dvidshub.net/video/321590/jo ... y-have-say

VIDEO Variations: http://www.dvidshub.net/download/popup/321590

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 05:47
by spazsinbad
This is an excellent video. Only download the smallest version because it is just the guys talking. However they speak in detail about a lot of things including the HOOK issues (there were two as explained) and the HMDS problems whilst at the end they rave about the 'delta flight path' for the F-35C that will make carrier landing so easy. :devil:

I'll attempt to extract just the audio for the first and last of the three things I mentioned..... To post here when done.

Testing has started on 'shake, rattle & roll' with so far six successful flyins as well as earlier 30+ 100% successful roll-ins but I'm not going to transcribe the audio - youse can hear it for youseselfs. :mrgreen:

OK OK here is the HMDS fix(s) from LCDR Burks (Sniff) USN Test Pilot....

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 07:00
by blindpilot
spazsinbad wrote:This is an excellent video. Only download the smallest version because it is just the guys talking. However they speak in detail about a lot of things including the HOOK issues (there were two as explained) and the HMDS problems whilst at the end they rave about the 'delta flight path' for the F-35C that will make carrier landing so easy. :devil:

...
Testing has started on 'shake, rattle & roll' with so far six successful flyins as well as earlier 30+ 100% successful roll-ins but I'm not going to transcribe the audio - youse can hear it for youseselfs. :mrgreen:


Thanks Spaz. I waded thru the video and there is one other thing they barely mentioned that is a very big thing.
Concerning network centric data fusion and operations, the quote went something like this, "well ... yes the weapons are being integrated on the plane bla bla but understand the way this works now is I may not even have the weapon on my plane. I find the target, identify, choose a weapon, and MAYBE EVEN PULL THE TRIGGER, but the actual missile ,may not be coming from my aircraft."

I continue to believe that most of us are underrating the changes associated with the paradigm shift. This is a big deal! IMHO

BP

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 09:00
by spazsinbad
Thanks for reminding me 'BP' about that quote/aspect. Yes it is jaw dropping and often not recognised by most because....

...Reel off a host of things that will go wrong - in their imagination of course - never that things can go as planned and practiced for; under all kinds of adverse conditions (which are mentioned in the video). I could spend hours making audio excerpts - that will be the next one (networking weapon releases off other aircraft). :doh:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 10:22
by spazsinbad
Fire for Effect - Commence: from same video above

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 17:14
by cantaz
28:55 and 30:15, apparently LO maintainability and filler cure time are not disrupting mission availability. This is relevant to page 48 of the 2013 DOT&E report, which suggests LO might be contributing to a decline in aircraft serviceability.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 20:44
by spazsinbad
I guess it is appropriate to highlight the 'BP' quote/notion mentioned above and in the audio excerpt with this LONG article - best read at source - below.... ONLY the first part excerpted with LONG last part about disadvantages and whatnots left out due to restrictions placed upon me by moderators about such matters as excerpting. I guess 'someone' will take care of the rest eh. :D

Navy’s UCLASS Could Be Air to Air Fighter (bit of a misleading headline but I guess MISSILE TRUCK does not cut it)
By: Dave Majumdar February 13, 2014
"Could the U.S. Navy’s future Unmanned Carrier-Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) aircraft have an air-to-air role? The service’s director of air warfare Rear Adm. Mike Manazir posed that it could during a Dec. 20 interview with USNI News.

Manazir contemplated the possibility that that the UCLASS, which is primarily being designed for the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) and strike roles, could be used as a flying missile magazine which could supplement the firepower of the F/A-18E/F and F-35C Joint Strike Fighter in air-to-air combat as a robotic wingman of sorts.

“Maybe we put a whole bunch of AMRAAMs (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile) on it and that thing is the truck,” Manazir said. “So this unmanned truck goes downtown with—as far as it can go—with a decision-maker.”

In Manazir’s vision the UCLASS could be commanded remotely from a Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye or a Lockheed Martin F-35C Joint Strike Fighter flight leader.

The concept has a lot of merit, said Air Force Reserve Col. Michael Pietrucha, a former F-15E weapons systems officer and autonomous unmanned air vehicle expert in a Wednesday interview with USNI News.

“This is not beyond the state-of-the-art,” Pietrucha said.
“The difficulty is always that the aircraft it self has no judgment and no prioritization scheme and isn’t going to have the systems onboard to do all things that a fighter does.”

The solution, Pietrucha said, is to leverage the sensors, situational awareness and inherent human judgment of a fighter pilot in a manned command aircraft. The manned aircraft would detect, track and identify the target, then hand-off the target for the unmanned aircraft to engage the “bandit”—as hostile targets are known.

“The Navy is ahead of the Air Force on this,” Pietrucha said, specifically citing the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) concept where a common air picture would be shared across multiple air platforms via a network of data-links.

Under the NIFC-CA concept, any “shooter” can fire on a target that is being tracked by a “sensor”, so long as the target is within range.

“If you solve that problem, then your missile caddy UCAV [unmanned combat air vehicle] wingman is a going concern,” Pietrucha said. “You can now target his missiles for him.”..."

http://news.usni.org/2014/02/13/navys-u ... ir-fighter

DON't forget - read it all at the jump.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 21:24
by hobo
The article dedicates quite a bit of space to the kinematic implications of launching an AMRAAM from a subsonic platform.

Pardon me for channeling Geogan for a moment, but one obvious solution would be to simply go with a bigger missile. (nobody worries about the kinematics of a SA-20 or Patriot TEL...)

The ESSM Block 2 for instance is already slated to receive a dual mode active/semi-active radar homing seeker.

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2013/08/20/navy-works-to-develop-sea-sparrow-block-2/

The baseline ESSM has been fired from a NASAMS launcher, which was originally designed for AMRAAM.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/norway-fires-first-ground-based-evolved-sea-sparrow-missile-from-nasams-launcher-161756765.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SCzBE3f6mQ

The obvious trade-offs would be that a bigger missile would require more volume in the UCAV, but at 12 feet long and 10 inches in diameter (620lb) the ESSM is smaller than the 13 foot, 10 inch diameter (783lb) AGM-88 and much smaller than the 13 foot 15 inch(1,000lb) AIM-54.

Assuming the UCAV were designed from the start to carry ESSM it would likely be no big deal, especially in a sub-sonic platform.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 22:38
by SpudmanWP
On that note, what's keeping them from using the ESSM in the internal F-35 A2G stations?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 22:51
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:On that note, what's keeping them from using the ESSM in the internal F-35 A2G stations?



Or the "corners" of an F-15? Don't know how many could be squeezed into an F-22's internal bay (assuming the ejectors could be rebuilt to handle the extra weight.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2014, 23:34
by popcorn
blindpilot wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:This is an excellent video. Only download the smallest version because it is just the guys talking. However they speak in detail about a lot of things including the HOOK issues (there were two as explained) and the HMDS problems whilst at the end they rave about the 'delta flight path' for the F-35C that will make carrier landing so easy. :devil:

...
Testing has started on 'shake, rattle & roll' with so far six successful flyins as well as earlier 30+ 100% successful roll-ins but I'm not going to transcribe the audio - youse can hear it for youseselfs. :mrgreen:


Thanks Spaz. I waded thru the video and there is one other thing they barely mentioned that is a very big thing.
Concerning network centric data fusion and operations, the quote went something like this, "well ... yes the weapons are being integrated on the plane bla bla but understand the way this works now is I may not even have the weapon on my plane. I find the target, identify, choose a weapon, and MAYBE EVEN PULL THE TRIGGER, but the actual missile ,may not be coming from my aircraft."

I continue to believe that most of us are underrating the changes associated with the paradigm shift. This is a big deal! IMHO

BP


Hmmm.. interesting. I wonder who how they will credit the kill, then?
.,each gets to paint half a jet on the fuselage or is the launcher-jet left out in the cold and treated like a UCLASS missile sled?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2014, 02:45
by hobo
SpudmanWP wrote:On that note, what's keeping them from using the ESSM in the internal F-35 A2G stations?


Assuming the length really is twelve feet (not just 12ish feet) then it could likely be made to fit on the air to ground station but the environment within the bay could be outside of what the ESSM was designed to take. I also suspect that few F-35 operators would be willing to swap two AIM-120s for a single ESSM.(given the plan to fit two AIM-120s on that station.)

Another issue is that the AIM-120 really is a very versatile missile with substantial capabilities in a WVR fight. I don't know if an ESSM could match it there. (which really matters when you start talking about an aircraft that would only be carrying four total missiles)

Bigger missiles offer some advantages, particularly their range and speed, but for the most part modern air to air weapons have tended to be roughly AMRAAM sized because that is where the optimal balance seems to be.

MICA 10 foot 6.3 inch diameter 246lb
Derby 11.8 foot 6.3 inch diameter 260lb
AMRAAM 12 foot 7 inch diameter 335lb
AA-12 11.8 foot 7.9 inch diameter 385lb
PL-12 12.6 foot 8 inch diameter 396lb
Meteor 12 foot 7 inch diameter 407lb
ESSM 12 foot 10 inch diameter 620lb

Of course the ESSM would be nowhere near a record size for an air launched weapon but it would be quite a bit bigger than the norm for weapons that have gone operational since 1990.

If a 400lb Meteor can be carried on the F-35's internal air to air station I wonder if a 600lb ESSM could. That might allow an F-35 to carry four AIM-120 and two ESSM internally.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2014, 03:40
by spazsinbad
IN the main video and in perhaps one of the audio excerpts the USMC LtCol mentions training/developing tactics at Yuma in the FMS (and I guess they have other things there also). This is what the USMC had to say some months back.

USMC Eyeing F-35B Ops Cost Reductions 18 Jun 2013 Amy Butler AWIN First
"...The service is already flying aircraft using the limited 2A software release at Eglin AFB, Fla., for pilot and maintenance training, and at Marine Corps Fighter Attack Squadron 121 in Yuma, Ariz. Though the software fielded is limited — allowing for basic takeoffs, approaches and familiarization flights — the F-35 simulators fielded for training already include a version of the more advanced 3F software package. Lockheed Martin is still working to compete the operational release of the software, but Schmidle says what has been included in the simulator is allowing for pilots to begin training beyond the capabilities of the aircraft. Ultimately, this should ease the transition from IOC in December 2015 to a full operational capability (FOC) later with the 3F software package, which includes more advanced electronic warfare options and a full weapons suite. “We are designing and flying tactics that we probably won’t fly in the airplane [soon] with the simulators,” Schmidle says. “FOC will be a natural extension of what we are doing” now at Yuma.

Advances in simulator technology have allowed for the equipment to go from being a tool in the past used to train pilots in procedures, to now being useful for advanced tactics training. Ultimately, 52% of the training syllabus for the F-35B will be handled in the simulator, also reducing the CPFH for the aircraft."

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 02.xml&p=2

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2014, 10:57
by spazsinbad
Main One Hour Video now on Utube - the Sbend version. :devil:


Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2014, 18:00
by maus92
neptune wrote:[quote="spazsinbad].... “No longer can we allow these aircraft to get grimy at sea” as was the practice with conventional jet aircraft, he observed....”[/quote]

You've seen nothing yet!, America's greatest innovations come when massive effort is implemented in escaping the dreaded "scrubbing detail". :lol:[/quote]


No problem. Just park all the F-35Cs on the flight deck, then re-adjust the flush deck nozzles - instant plane wash!

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2014, 21:14
by basher54321
To take from that:

Navy Pilots hope the C gets the nickname "The Reaper" instead of Lightning 2

F-35C landing on the ship will be automatic via the Flight control system (Delta Flight Path) - could be primary approach method with manual pilot control as backup. (Likely to change Naval aviation and remove the challenge of carrier landings.)

SEAD likely as a mission (when software installed).

6 x F-35Bs on LHA/LHDs to multiply super Carrier force.

F-35 is a Must have - can go where 4th gen can't (vulnerabilities increasing too fast against 4 Gens).

Going to have to wash aircraft more than once a month to maintain LO.

They want a longer range missile than the AIM-120(D?) - stated this is a limiting factor for whole US Fleet.


Blown out of proportion problems:

Tailhook on C
[*]Redesigned hook now in place and in testing

HMD
[*]Jitter - difficult to stabilise symbols for pilot during manoeuvres
[*]Night vision camera - show stopper (being redesigned)
[*]Light leakage at night - too bright (being redesigned)
[*]Predicts it will be a success and paths to fix are progressing
[*]Is a different concept - took 50 hours to get used to it.
[*]Gen 2 helmet in currently in use

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2014, 23:30
by spazsinbad
'basher' thanks for the summary. I have been meaning to excerpt the audio for 'delta flight path' F-35C carrier landing part [ oops it is on the previous page in the 'deltaflightpath' audio ]. This story that the F-35C will likely make regular auto landings via JPALS has been in the wind for a long time. Even USN LSOs think a fully manual landing will be an exception. JPALS brings huge accuracy to auto landings such that an individual arrestor wire can be targeted amongst many other things. X-47B demonstrates the accuracy of JPALS enabled auto robotic landings. Add in the nice view at night via DAS/HMDS with auto landings and things should be OK even for nuggets.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2014, 00:31
by basher54321
I didn't think they would be going that far straight away myself.
The potential is there (like driverless cars) to make it (landings) safer - but with any software system various bugs due to untested conditions will be present and will take a few years to iron out. After that it should be great but fingers crossed for the initial participants.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2014, 01:06
by spazsinbad
I do not think the auto landings will be every day initially either particularly as apparently the JPALS for the manned aircraft onboard will not be as accurate as envisaged until in final form with incremental upgrades. X-47B uses JPALS in a special way for the moment - when later all will be harmonised. I'm just really repeating what USN LSOs say in their newsletters. It will take some time - proof required and all that. There is even talk that the BEDFORD ARRAY may be used on CVNs at some point, if it works well for the Brits doing their SRVLs. Probably then the two OLSs will co-exist depending. Present IFLOLS will be required for the legacy aircraft anyway. There is a lot of carrier landing innovation in the near future.

A lot of good info has been posted in various threads about JPALS - here is some of it:

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=20468&p=256806&hilit=newsletter#p256806
&
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=20377&p=238671&hilit=newsletter#p238671

PLUS new carrier landing software which I presume will be used in Super Hornets and F-35Cs:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=20468&p=251985&hilit=newsletter#p251985 (scroll)

PLUS Beford Array links and other stuff:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20505&p=233737&hilit=newsletter#p233737

Unfortunately the USN LSO Newsletter is now only 4 per year rather than previous 12 while content was light in the last two so perhaps they are more circumspect these days about the new stuff:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=13450&p=198140&hilit=newsletter#p198140

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2014, 10:25
by cantaz
basher54321 wrote:They want a longer range missile than the AIM-120(D?) - stated this is a limiting factor for whole US Fleet.


Can't help but wonder if Gigliotti was implicitly plugging LM's CUDA-ER.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2014, 15:33
by popcorn
cantaz wrote:
basher54321 wrote:They want a longer range missile than the AIM-120(D?) - stated this is a limiting factor for whole US Fleet.


Can't help but wonder if Gigliotti was implicitly plugging LM's CUDA-ER.


Has an ER Version been talked about? I assune this would be a longer missile, negating tandem mounting qnd cutting total payload by half.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2014, 15:51
by basher54321
spazsinbad wrote: There is even talk that the BEDFORD ARRAY may be used on CVNs at some point, if it works well for the Brits doing their SRVLs. Probably then the two OLSs will co-exist depending. Present IFLOLS will be required for the legacy aircraft anyway. There is a lot of carrier landing innovation in the near future.


Thanks for the info - especially the Bedford Array will be interesting to see how that works out.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2014, 01:45
by XanderCrews
cantaz wrote:
basher54321 wrote:They want a longer range missile than the AIM-120(D?) - stated this is a limiting factor for whole US Fleet.


Can't help but wonder if Gigliotti was implicitly plugging LM's CUDA-ER.



Same page on that one. Felt like he was throwing the hat in the ring.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2014, 05:28
by XanderCrews
I did get a kick out of Gigliotti's story about which to trust more, the VLS or the ejection seat?! Its kind of sad though. Interesting anecdotes and other really cool history making stuff that should go reported doesn't. I'm not talking about cheerleading, just some objectiveness and some journalists that actually have an interest in the nuts and bolts of aviation that might pass on stories like that. What happened to the airplane nerds? :( Why did we have to hear that from a test pilot? when did we trade in our aviation journos who liked to write stories about airplanes for politicians with agendas?

Depressing to think about all that has gone unreported and may be lost because it might actually be construed as interesting, and interesting things are positive things --can't have that. Bring on the stories about exploding concrete that might happen, skip the part about a 15 ton aircraft taking off vertically that did happen-- Thats not what aviation is about. Stuff like that happens all the time and is hardly worth writing about...

Its sad. The F-35Bs vertical takeoff was an incredible moment in aviation and all we got was questions about its tactical utility. (BTW the answer is "Falklands")

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2014, 05:45
by spazsinbad
Totally agree with the 'boring aviation writing these days' sentiments above. It would be great to have not just the boring forensic accounting ad nauseam stuff. There is a balance out there waiting to be written. Perhaps Majumdar is that one. :D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2014, 17:13
by XanderCrews
spazsinbad wrote:Totally agree with the 'boring aviation writing these days' sentiments above. It would be great to have not just the boring forensic accounting ad nauseam stuff. There is a balance out there waiting to be written. Perhaps Majumdar is that one. :D


I put the entire hour long Q and A in the background while i did chores around the house. I learned more details from these pilots just sharing basic anecdotes than all the aviation week stories written in the last 4 years. Why is that? Its time to drain the swamp. Its time to get some young bucks that will report honestly but with some enthusiasm about technology. For some reason aviation writers have forgotten to write about the airplane and the people who fly and service it, and instead has decided to play accountant with the program instead. Can't that be left to other publications?

I still stop and gawk whenever I see an Osprey fly by. Its an incredible piece of technology and aeronautics. I always think "wow, that's the future"

Also in case you wanted some more confirmation about Avaition Weeks agenda here is a "round up" of the "best comments" about the JSF from January-- see if you spot a theme:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 4239bcf28e

Its a fine job of trying to create a "sense of consensus"

sorry for the OT, just kind of amazed by it all

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2014, 00:07
by mixelflick
In order to extend the F-35C’s range, the Navy hopes to refuel the stealthy new fighter...

Why does the Navy insist on this? I realize launching with a heavier bomb load is one reason. Are there others??

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2014, 00:19
by SpudmanWP
If it can deliver an effective IFR solution then it can use it's inner pylons for weapons instead of fueltanks. This means more targets prosecuted per plane = less cost and a faster resolution to the problem.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2014, 00:54
by spazsinbad
Someone was at the 'West2014' briefing (see video in past thread pages for more info) or even watched the video to report on it. I'll extract only the LCDR Burks quote about launching weapons from anywhere by the F-35. NavAvers like headwinds for landing BTW - called WOD - not too much and not too little - the ideal is just right. :mrgreen:

Navy F-35C Prepares for Ship Trials, Faces Headwinds 17 Feb 2014 Sandra I. Erwin
"...“We are only half way through the initial development plan,” says Navy Lt. Cmdr. Michael Burks, a test pilot with 150 hours in the cockpit of the F-35C and B....

...The priorities for the Navy’s F-35C are to finish software development and to fix glitches in the helmet-mounted displays, Burks says during a recent industry conference in San Diego. Then the Navy will have to decide how to incorporate the F-35C into an already crowded air wing. [crowded? I thought there was 'too few' aircraft on board these days?]

“There will be some challenges integrating the F-35 on the carrier. Most have been identified,” he says. A carrier air wing typically has anywhere from 44 to 54 fighter jets. The Navy expects that for the foreseeable future, most of the fighters in the air wing will be Super Hornets, and that the F-35C will have a niche role as an airborne intelligence nerve center.

The F-35C will be predominantly an “information collector and distributor in the air wing,” says Burks. As the Navy’s only “stealth” aircraft that can fly undetected by radar, it will be prepared to “go alone into highly contested areas,” he adds. But most of the time it will serve as the hub of a “network centric” air wing.

“It may not matter what weapon we have on board,” Burks says. F-35 pilots will pass information over the network that would allow other aircraft to engage targets. “I may pull the trigger in the cockpit but the weapon may come from a different platform,” he explains...."
&
"...The officer in charge of the F-35, Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, says in a 60 Minutes interview that the price tag of at least $115 billion per aircraft is too high, but the Pentagon intends to stick with the plan. “I don’t see any scenario where we’re walking back away from this program.” [SPRINT! Don't WALK!] :doh:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... a2&ID=1415

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2014, 03:31
by maus92
spazsinbad wrote:Someone was at the 'West2014' briefing (see video in past thread pages for more info) or even watched the video to report on it. I'll extract only the LCDR Burks quote about launching weapons from anywhere by the F-35. NavAvers like headwinds for landing BTW - called WOD - not too much and not too little - the ideal is just right. :mrgreen:

The F-35C will be predominantly an “information collector and distributor in the air wing,” says Burks. As the Navy’s only “stealth” aircraft that can fly undetected by radar, it will be prepared to “go alone into highly contested areas,” he adds. But most of the time it will serve as the hub of a “network centric” air wing.

“It may not matter what weapon we have on board,” Burks says. F-35 pilots will pass information over the network that would allow other aircraft to engage targets. “I may pull the trigger in the cockpit but the weapon may come from a different platform,” he explains...."


The remote firing of a weapon is a feature of NIFC-CA, and is not platform specific (to the F-35 - although he could be referring to another F-35 in MADL range - the capability has been tested on E-2s, Growlers, high block Super Hornets, ships...) Theoretically, anyone with authority can launch weapons from another "host"- but it's generally the E-2 CICO/MC who will decide. The first CVG equipped with NIFC-CA capability comes online in 2015. But before the F-35C becomes that forward node and wants to remain stealthy, they need to get the proper datalink technology installed, whether it be Satcom or a new LPI link.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2014, 00:49
by cantaz
maus92 wrote:But before the F-35C becomes that forward node and wants to remain stealthy, they need to get the proper datalink technology installed, whether it be Satcom or a new LPI link.


Depending on who you believe, it may already be physically installed and awaiting software support.

http://www.afcea.org/content/?q=node/1623

The above article claims the MADL operates in the K band, as opposed to other claims of it being Ku band.

Hidden in the vaguery of who is classifying which band is the possibility that the MADL's K band is the broadest classification of K band, encompasses Ku through Ka, in which case it should be able to talk with most existing US satellites.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2014, 00:58
by SpudmanWP
MADL already works and has been demonstrated with a 5-ship (4 in the air and one on the ground) formation.

It's also exceeding spec:

http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... 5-aircraft

Northrop Grumman Information Systems Defense Systems division vice president and general manager Mike Twyman said the MADL performed reliably and displayed an excellent range at multiples of required specifications, while demonstrating ability to connect fifth-generation fighters during flight tests.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2014, 03:47
by popcorn
Navy has selected Rockwell-Collins to develop ATDL. Expect this to be supported on all F-35 platforms,,so Navy is not only limited to it's F-35C fleet for eyes-and-ears in otherwise denied airspace. AF, Marines and non-US JSF operators should be welcome to the party as well.


http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... ology.html

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2014, 04:14
by spazsinbad

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2014, 14:33
by linkomart
Regarding the article:

I'd say that one of the more interesting quotes came a bit down the article:
There was also a structural flaw that caused excessive stress to the bulkhead where the tail hook attaches to the airframe. The redesign took a year and a half. Manufacturer Lockheed Martin Corp. has so far delivered one F-35C with the new tail hook at the Navy’s test site at Patuxent River, Md.


That ,IMHO, would explain why they have been so slow to test the new designed hook even though it was a high risk item.
You can't really test the hook if you rip it off. :doh: And it makes the weight gain of the new hook at 139 pounds seems much more sensible.

my 5 cent

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2014, 10:41
by spazsinbad
Back to the EYES and EARS of the FLEET with F-22s and LEGACIES in tow:

Lockheed Secretly Demonstrates New Stealthy Fighter Comms 25 Feb 2014 Amy Butler
"Lockheed Martin has demonstrated a secretly developed capability to fix one of the shortfalls of its stealthy F-22 and F-35 fighters: their inability to link to one another, or to legacy fighters, for air campaigns.

The company recently showcased a new datalink capability for the fighters through Project Missouri, a proprietary program. During the demonstration, Lockheed validated the use of a Link 16 transmit capability from the twin-engine F-22 Raptor as well as showcased a waveform developed by L-3 Communications and optimized for low-probability-of-intercept/low-probability-of-detection transmissions (LPI/LPD), says Ron Bessire, vice president of technology and innovation at the company’s Skunk Works.

The demonstration required 8 hr. of flight time and took place Dec. 17 and 19, Bessire tells Aviation Week. The trials required the use of an Air Force Raptor as well as the F-35 Cooperative Avionics Testbed (CATbird), a 737-based flying laboratory that is used to test F-35 software standing in as a Joint Strike Fighter surrogate. The F-22 was able to transmit to a Link 16 terminal on the ground....

...Through Project Missouri, Lockheed is trying to package a capability similar to that offered by the Northrop Grumman Joint Strike Fighter Enterprise Terminal (JETpack) Joint Capability Technology Demonstration within a stealthy aircraft. JETpack was a podded solution; incorporating it on the stealthy F-22 and F-35 would compromise their low radar cross section...."

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 666721.xml

Best to read it all at the jump.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2014, 17:34
by SpudmanWP
Just for information's sake, JETpack is headed to the F-15C and will basically make them mini-BACN capable.

From the FY2014 budget:

Title: Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Enterprise Terminal (JETpack fifth to fourth)
Description: JETpack fifth to fourth supports the airborne gateway needs to distribute fifth Generation (Gen) data to fourth Gen fighters by translating their tactical data link into Link-16 messages that can be viewed by the fourth Gen aircraft. JETpack will demonstrate: (1) four flyable prototype dual-band, multi-beam antennas, (2) two JET terminals, and (3) two dual-band remote electronics.

FY 2014 Plans:
Finalize integration of JETpack flyable prototype into test aircraft, receive safety of flight certification, conduct pre-flight tests, conduct the operational utility assessment and initiate transition to the F-15C community.


Here is a May 2013 article about JETpack.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 28e0b566ae

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2014, 00:07
by popcorn
SpudmanWP wrote:Just for information's sake, JETpack is headed to the F-15C and will basically make them mini-BACN capable.

From the FY2014 budget:

Title: Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Enterprise Terminal (JETpack fifth to fourth)
Description: JETpack fifth to fourth supports the airborne gateway needs to distribute fifth Generation (Gen) data to fourth Gen fighters by translating their tactical data link into Link-16 messages that can be viewed by the fourth Gen aircraft. JETpack will demonstrate: (1) four flyable prototype dual-band, multi-beam antennas, (2) two JET terminals, and (3) two dual-band remote electronics.

FY 2014 Plans:
Finalize integration of JETpack flyable prototype into test aircraft, receive safety of flight certification, conduct pre-flight tests, conduct the operational utility assessment and initiate transition to the F-15C community.


Here is a May 2013 article about JETpack.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx? ... 28e0b566ae


Am understanding this correctly Spud? A JETpack-configured F-15C will be able to do onboard protocol conversion of LPI/LPD data transmissions from 5G platforms e.g. MADL, IFDL, eliminating the need for a EQ-4B Global Hawk or E-11manned airraft? If so, a single F-15C could presumably share said info other Link-16 partners?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2014, 00:17
by SpudmanWP
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words:

Image

As you can see, the JETpack Gateway shares the data coming from 5th gen assets with the rest of the network via Link-16, etc.

This is one of the reasons why MADL supports 25 links, 6 groups of 4 and 1 link for the Gateway.

btw, you might want to fix your post above as some of your question is in my quote and some of it is after the quote.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2014, 00:40
by popcorn
Done.. my bad.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2014, 01:58
by meatshield
spazsinbad wrote:Someone was at the 'West2014' briefing (see video in past thread pages for more info) or even watched the video to report on it. I'll extract only the LCDR Burks quote about launching weapons from anywhere by the F-35. NavAvers like headwinds for landing BTW - called WOD - not too much and not too little - the ideal is just right. :mrgreen:

Navy F-35C Prepares for Ship Trials, Faces Headwinds 17 Feb 2014 Sandra I. Erwin
"...“We are only half way through the initial development plan,” says Navy Lt. Cmdr. Michael Burks, a test pilot with 150 hours in the cockpit of the F-35C and B....

...The priorities for the Navy’s F-35C are to finish software development and to fix glitches in the helmet-mounted displays, Burks says during a recent industry conference in San Diego. Then the Navy will have to decide how to incorporate the F-35C into an already crowded air wing. [crowded? I thought there was 'too few' aircraft on board these days?]

“There will be some challenges integrating the F-35 on the carrier. Most have been identified,” he says. A carrier air wing typically has anywhere from 44 to 54 fighter jets. The Navy expects that for the foreseeable future, most of the fighters in the air wing will be Super Hornets, and that the F-35C will have a niche role as an airborne intelligence nerve center.

The F-35C will be predominantly an “information collector and distributor in the air wing,” says Burks. As the Navy’s only “stealth” aircraft that can fly undetected by radar, it will be prepared to “go alone into highly contested areas,” he adds. But most of the time it will serve as the hub of a “network centric” air wing.

“It may not matter what weapon we have on board,” Burks says. F-35 pilots will pass information over the network that would allow other aircraft to engage targets. “I may pull the trigger in the cockpit but the weapon may come from a different platform,” he explains...."
&
"...The officer in charge of the F-35, Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, says in a 60 Minutes interview that the price tag of at least $115 billion per aircraft is too high, but the Pentagon intends to stick with the plan. “I don’t see any scenario where we’re walking back away from this program.” [SPRINT! Don't WALK!] :doh:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... a2&ID=1415


That's an excellent interview, saw it today as "f35 Roundtable" on YouTube. The quote from the Lockheed test pilot that they need a longer ranged missile for the f35 was interesting. Also the navy test pilot Burks sounds positively bullish on the c variant and what it will bring to the carrier operations. His description of the auto approach function of the f35 and how it will cut training time and fixing the tail hook problems was brilliant.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2014, 04:02
by spazsinbad
And yet... somehow these sterling chaps are 'known to be just shills for LM' somehow (by some - not moi) - this I do not GROK. :D :roll:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2014, 20:02
by maus92
The test pilot's job is to be bullish, at least in public / approved interviews. Their criticisms are aired behind closed doors - as they should - which eventually surface when suppressive efforts are deemed worse than the admission of problems. While positive comments are usually attributed to an individual pilot, criticisms are almost never attributed to an individual TP.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2014, 20:05
by spazsinbad
'maus92' at least you could point us to a 'test pilot' job description to back up your claims above. What tosh.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2014, 21:52
by spazsinbad
I guess the headline says it all - I do not think F-35 is mentioned but hey it will be there in the mix one day. :doh: It is a long article best read at source - only some bits excerpted below which will be relevant to future F-35Cs in the mix.

Why the Navy Wants More Growlers
12 Mar 2014 Dave Majumdar
"The Navy is eyeing expanding its fleet of electronic attack aircraft to better fit into the service’s next generation plan for fighting a high end air war.

As part of its yet-unpublished unfunded requirements, the Navy is requesting 22 additional Boeing EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft that the service would like to purchase in the Fiscal Year 2015 budget.

“Today we have the minimum numbers in each squadron,” Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus said during a Wednesday hearing before the House Armed Services Committee. “[This request] is an insurance policy, it’s a hedge”

The thought behind the request — according to sources in the Navy and in Congress — is to grow Growler squadrons from five to as many as eight aircraft per unit to support the airborne electronic attack (AEA) tactics the service envisions under the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) construct to defeat complex integrated air defense systems (IADS) that are under development in Russia and China....

...Under the NIFC-CA construct, Rear Adm. Mike Manazir, the Navy’s director of air warfare, told USNI News in December 2013 that the service would need a minimum of two airborne EA-18Gs linked via a high-speed data-link to each other and to a third point—a Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye — to perform a time distance of arrival analysis to precisely locate threat emitters.

Manazir said that the Navy hopes to use either the Rockwell Collins-developed Tactical Targeting Network Technology waveform or a Link-16 Concurrent Multi-Netting-4 network to link the jets together.

With the three separate points, the Navy expects to be able to narrow down the location of multiple mobile threat emitters to a narrow enough “ellipse” as to generate a weapons quality track in real time.

However, an industry source said that the tactic works best when there are three Growlers working in conjunction with each other. The Navy performed a demonstration of the new tactic with three Growlers in the summer of 2013, the source said...."

Source: http://news.usni.org/2014/03/12/navy-wants-growlers

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2014, 23:19
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:.......Under the NIFC-CA construct, ..that the service would need a minimum of two airborne EA-18Gs linked via a high-speed data-link to each other and to a third point—a Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye — to perform a time distance of arrival analysis to precisely locate threat emitters. ..Navy hopes to use either the Rockwell Collins-developed Tactical Targeting Network Technology waveform or a Link-16 Concurrent Multi-Netting-4 network to link the jets together. With the three separate points, the Navy expects to be able to narrow down the location of multiple mobile threat emitters to a narrow enough “ellipse” as to generate a weapons quality track in real time.
However, an industry source said that the tactic works best when there are three Growlers working in conjunction with each other. The Navy performed a demonstration of the new tactic with three Growlers in the summer of 2013, the source said...."...]



Is this a job that One F-35C can perform with it's own EA/EW suite??? Hee..!, Hee..!, Hee..! :devil:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2014, 00:32
by popcorn
neptune wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:.......Under the NIFC-CA construct, ..that the service would need a minimum of two airborne EA-18Gs linked via a high-speed data-link to each other and to a third point—a Northrop Grumman E-2D Hawkeye — to perform a time distance of arrival analysis to precisely locate threat emitters. ..Navy hopes to use either the Rockwell Collins-developed Tactical Targeting Network Technology waveform or a Link-16 Concurrent Multi-Netting-4 network to link the jets together. With the three separate points, the Navy expects to be able to narrow down the location of multiple mobile threat emitters to a narrow enough “ellipse” as to generate a weapons quality track in real time.
However, an industry source said that the tactic works best when there are three Growlers working in conjunction with each other. The Navy performed a demonstration of the new tactic with three Growlers in the summer of 2013, the source said...."...]



Is this a job that One F-35C can perform with it's own EA/EW suite??? Hee..!, Hee..!, Hee..! :devil:




Who knows? :devil:


http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/BAE_S ... AN/ASQ-239


BAE Systems AN/ASQ-239

The AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda is an Integrated Defensive Avionics Suite developed for the F-35 Lightning II. It is based on the F-22 Raptor’s AN/ALR-94 suite. The AN/ASQ-239 is many times more sensitive than previous generations of RWR and can precisely geo-locate the direction of the threat. Thus, it can provide targeting information for a AGM-88 HARM.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2014, 05:45
by XanderCrews
maus92 wrote:The test pilot's job is to be bullish, at least in public / approved interviews.


I thought it was their job to fly and test the aircraft? Boy am I backwards :doh:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2014, 17:26
by blindpilot
XanderCrews wrote:
maus92 wrote:The test pilot's job is to be bullish, at least in public / approved interviews.


I thought it was their job to fly and test the aircraft? Boy am I backwards :doh:


It does make one wonder if the accuser has ever been in the same room/city/state, as a test pilot :) actually it makes me wonder if they have been in the same room as ... like ... any pilot. :) :) but heh being backwards etc. etc...

BP

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2014, 21:06
by gtx
Sheez guys, don't you remember the code:

Pilot (or anyone) says positive things about F-35 = complete lies, obviously either paid by LM or Govt or simply too dimwited to know better.

Pilot (or anyone) says negative things about F-35 = gospel truth, spoken by someone enlightened and brave enough to tell truth...despite obvious threats to career by LM and/or Govt.
:wink:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2014, 23:51
by XanderCrews
blindpilot wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
maus92 wrote:The test pilot's job is to be bullish, at least in public / approved interviews.


I thought it was their job to fly and test the aircraft? Boy am I backwards :doh:


It does make one wonder if the accuser has ever been in the same room/city/state, as a test pilot :) actually it makes me wonder if they have been in the same room as ... like ... any pilot. :) :) but heh being backwards etc. etc...

BP


its getting to the point where a man can't even be bitter in the onslaught of all this positivity.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2014, 17:47
by spazsinbad
Back on topic in an a...backwards way (similar to Majumdar story above) and HeadLine says it all... Long story Short....
Growler Advocates Outline Stealth Vulnerabilities 24 Mar 2014 Amy Butler With Guy Norris in El Segundo, Calif.

"Despite a squeeze on investment accounts, the Pentagon's fiscal 2015 budget strategy prioritizes funding for the stealthy F-35—but at what cost, some in industry ask....

...Meanwhile, the Air Force is also planning to mothball seven, or half, of its EC-130 electronic attack aircraft in fiscal 2013, saving $315.8 million. Air Force Maj. Gen. Jim Jones, director of operations, plans and requirements, says that the service “can't afford to program to a no-risk force, [and further investment in stealth] is a piece of that. . . . All of these capabilities add up to a more survivable capability.” When questioned about whether the Air Force would backfill the lost EC-130s with some other capability, Jones declines to provide information, acknowledging that this is likely an “unsatisfying” answer. This could point to a capability being developed in the classified world....

...“All aircraft can be seen by certain radars. The trick is to disrupt the [kill] chain when someone can lock weapons on you. We are talking about the 'perishability' of stealth,” Gibbons says.

Growler advocates argue that the EA-18G, with its wide-spectrum EW and electronic-attack capabilities should be the “quarterback” for future strike packages, with the electronic-warfare officer in the backseat essentially managing the electronic battle.

During a flight demonstration last summer, Boeing showed that two EA-18Gs were capable of passively detecting a threat emitter and passing “very accurate” targeting data for a strike within “minutes.” Company analysis suggests adding another Growler to the engagement would allow for generating target coordinates in seconds. This operational concept could condense the time element of the kill chain and get at the “counter-shutdown” problem for air defenses, when threat emitters intermittently radiate and then shut down to avoid being targeted by radar-seeking weapons such as the AGM-88E Advance Anti-Radiation Guided Missile.

In its campaign to restore funding for the Growler, Boeing will have to walk a careful line. The company has to make the case that without more Growlers, even the stealthiest aircraft in the Pentagon's fleet are vulnerable to emerging air defenses. This is a thorny and challenging argument to make as it quickly veers into classified territory. And its Pentagon customer is loath to acknowledge that its multibillion-dollar investment in stealth aircraft could be made vulnerable by comparatively small investment in networked air defenses. Boeing is already aggressively engaging Congress to lobby for more Growler money and has launched a grass-roots advocacy campaign website.

Although F-22s and F-35s are the most capable platforms at penetrating air defenses, they are not silver bullets and still require capable escorts to standoff at the edge of a hostile range to control the electronic battlefield, Growler advocates say. They suggest doubling the number of Growlers in each carrier air wing to 10. There is “plenty of room” on the future carrier deck to accommodate the additional aircraft, the industry official says.

While carrying the most advanced and fused avionics available, the F-35 is able to influence only the electronic battle within the frequency of its own Northrop Grumman AN/APG-81 radar. But if an F-35 encounters a threat not in its database or outside its own radar band, it likely would not address it—whereas an electronic-warfare officer on an EA-18G could discern its capabilities and suppress it, if needed, the industry official says....

SOURCE: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.asp ... 674336.xml

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2014, 19:46
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:Back on topic in an a...backwards way ...........Growler advocates argue that the EA-18G, with its wide-spectrum EW and electronic-attack capabilities should be the “quarterback” for future strike packages, with the electronic-warfare officer in the backseat essentially managing the electronic battle. ...]


I hate to be the bearer of criticism to my former fellow shipmates but.....How can you be a quarterback with a "clubfoot"?

The EA-18G can't be regarded as a controlling influence in a naval strike package with the F-35B/C; as a very capable strike asset (contributor), yes. Radiating jamming RF will appear as defining (location) to the strike targets, as headlights on a dark road in a moonless night. The Hawkeye, Growler and the SBug will continue to be creditable tactical assets with their weapons carrying capacity and their systems ability to link to the F-35s for sharing data and weapons selections and controls. Each a/c commander/ pilot will have their roles and responsibilities spelled out before they leave the deck (mission planning). Quarterbacking will be left to the nimble and quick around the scene of the engagement with speed, range and tactical oversight capabilities (F-35).

These folks seem to be spending a lot of their time trying to circumvent the F-35s leading edge capabilities and inventing new ways (quarterbacking??) to prop up their old steeds, it's time to get a new horse. The sooner the SBUG mafia gets on board with "time is moving on", the sooner they can better apply their experience, insights and innovative thinking to using "all" of the tools they will have on the flight deck, including the F-35.

Don't get me wrong, about supporting improvements in the legacy equipment, adding IRST to the Tom Cat was a great improvement and a proven tactical tool. Now that it is being added to the SBug, it will make it a more capable asset. I can support the additional 22 Growlers if they are used to replace the Corp's Prowlers and support the development of the NGJ for the fleet but not at the expense of the F-35.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2014, 22:01
by enrico
I don't think the "SBUG mafia" is getting any more convinced as time goes by. They're just getting gradually promoted to positions where they can be more vocal.

Some related light reading:

http://www.cnas.org/sites/default/files ... nsahel.pdf

Oh by the way, who was running CNAS when this report was produced, and where's he going next?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2014, 02:15
by XanderCrews
enrico wrote:I don't think the "SBUG mafia" is getting any more convinced as time goes by. They're just getting gradually promoted to positions where they can be more vocal.

Some related light reading:

http://www.cnas.org/sites/default/files ... nsahel.pdf

Oh by the way, who was running CNAS when this report was produced, and where's he going next?


They are trying to get more growlers and we know they are going to get more F-35s as time goes on. If you want to try and convince yourself that trend is going to somehow reverse against all odds and after the navy failed to achieve escape velocity years ago (with much higher ranked people, and in worse days of the program) in the first place you are welcome to it.

BTW, that PDF is about the importance of EW, It might seem a tedious detail but there is a difference between the growler which is an EW aircraft, and what that PDF is advocating, and the Super Bug. Though externally similar they have different jobs and capabilities. HTH

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2014, 22:51
by spazsinbad
As always best to read the post at URL rather than the 'reminders' here excerpted. And YAY! RAAF for their GROWLing! :devil:

Why The Navy Really Wants 22 More F/A-18Gs 26 Mar 2014 Colin Clark

"CAPITOL HILL: After several years of appearing to dislike the F-35C, or at least appearing lukewarm to buying it, the Navy today finally revealed why it wants to buy more F-18Gs from Boeing.

Basically, it all boils down to the fact that the F-18G, known as the Growler, emits a broader set of electronic warfare frequencies than does the F-35, Rear Adm. Michael Manazir, told reporters after today’s House Armed Services air and land force subcommittee hearing. The two planes flying together are a much more effective strike package, according to Navy analysis, than either one flying on its own. The F-18G “supplements and complements” the F-35, he said. In fact, Manazir said the new planes were not needed for strictly naval missions but for joint forces, including fighting alongside our allies.

The F-35 is targeted against a narrower array of frequencies and emits only in a fairly narrow swath in front of the aircraft, according to Manazir....

...Manazir said the Navy has determined that using F/A–18Gs reduces the length of a “campaign and increases our effectiveness,” good reasons to buy the aircraft. And this is with the current Growler, not ones that will use the Next Generation Jammer. Those aircraft, he said, would be even more capable....

...Why it took the Navy so long to discuss this and lay to rest the many rumors that have floated about the real reasons the service wanted more Growlers is another question, one I can’t answer."

SOURCE: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/03/why- ... e-fa-18gs/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2014, 11:15
by spazsinbad
First half of this article important to read whilst only last third excerpted below:
Navy Wants More Growlers to Fight a Deadlier High End Air War 26 Mar 2014 Dave Majumdar

"...Meanwhile, the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is also an extremely capable electronic attack platform — but only over a limited part of the spectrum, Manazir said.

The F-35 uses its Northrop Grumman APG-81 for its electronic attack capability and therefore is limited to jamming enemy emitters within its own frequency band.

“The EA [electronic attack] capabilities of the F-35 are designed to support its own strike package in a specific portion of the EM [electromagnetic] spectrum. The EA-18G by design has a much broader and wider application of EA capabilities,” wrote Capt. Scott Conn, who heads the strike branch under Manazir’s office, in a statement to USNI News.

“The EA-18G is utilized as a theater level asset, attacking the full spectrum of threat kill chains from communication systems, surveillance, acquisition, and fire control radars,” Conn wrote.

“The EA capabilities of the F-35 complement the EA-18G, and the synergy between the two are very effective against advanced IADs [integrated air defenses] threats.”

Manazir testified that the EA-18G would be used to support the F-35B and C in their penetrating strike role in an anti-access/area denial environment (A2/AD).

“Stealth provides significant survivability but it does not address the complete kill chain of the threat. The combination of stealth and EA is extremely effective; EA effectiveness is usually based on what is called J/S Jamming signal/Signature signal,” Conn stated, expanding on Manazir’s testimony.

“With stealth [aircraft] the signature is magnitudes lower than conventional [aircraft]. Thus, specific jamming from the EA-18G with ALQ-99 or Next Generation Jammers can be significantly more effective for a stealth [aircraft] than for a conventional [aircraft.]”

Further, the EA-18G would be needed to support a “stand-in” jamming capability, Manazir said. The stand-off jamming would be needed while the “stand-in” jammers penetrate into hostile territory—but Manazir did not elaborate on exactly what that stand-in capability would consist of."

SOURCE: http://news.usni.org/2014/03/26/navy-wa ... nd-air-war

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2014, 10:30
by spazsinbad
Please be AWARE of the DISclaimer/DISclosure in this online article... Best to read it all at the URL.
Air Combat: Five Reasons Fifth-Gen Fighters Don't Need Help From Jammer Planes 28 Mar 2014 Loren Thompson

"...The question is whether the F-35 is so good that it can be self-sufficient in combat, not requiring the support of electronic-warfare aircraft designed to jam enemy radars.

The Air Force and Marine Corps apparently think it is. They have no plans to buy new jamming aircraft as the F-35 is fielded. The Navy isn’t so sure; it plans to buy 138 EA-18G jamming aircraft, popularly known as Growlers, to support its carrier-based strike aircraft, and now it has told Congress it would like to have 22 more. Navy leaders haven’t spelled out precisely why they need the additional jamming aircraft, but it appears they plan to use their Growlers to support both existing strike aircraft and the F-35 when it becomes operational. That would be consistent with a longstanding Navy preference for using a mix of technologies and tactics in countering enemy defenses, rather than relying heavily on one feature such as stealth.

(Disclosure: My think tank receives money from F-35 prime contractor Lockheed Martin and EA-18G prime contractor Boeing; other companies contributing to both planes also have given the think tank money; some of these companies are consulting clients.)...

...[FIVE POINTS:]
...Low-observable technology....
...On-board electronic defenses....
...Other on-board systems....
...Limits of fourth-gen jammers....

...Dangers of fourth-gen support. There isn’t much doubt that parts of the joint force will need support from the Growler for decades to come, because legacy planes have sizable radar cross-sections that make them vulnerable. However, using non-stealthy jamming aircraft to support stealthy fifth-generation strike planes could prove counter-productive since the presence of the legacy planes might tip off adversaries as to the attack vectors of the strikers. For instance, Chinese radars typically would not be able to track carrier-based F-35 fighters operating around Taiwan due to their combination of low observables and on-board electronic-warfare capabilities, but if Growlers were loitering in the vicinity that could simplify the task of figuring out where the stealthy planes were operating. Once a military service transitions to relying on fifth-generation technology to maintain its fighting edge, it needs to carefully think through how to exploit that technology for maximum tactical effect; mixing fourth- and fifth-generation planes in the same strike package could easily backfire.

It is not easy to discuss these topics in a public setting because the capabilities of the F-35 and the war plans that it would help execute are largely secret. You can’t learn much about the electronic-warfare suite on the F-35, or the functional limitations of its Northrop Grumman radar, or the network-attack techniques built into its on-board software, unless you have a raft of security clearances. You also aren’t likely to get much insight into the warfighting scenarios that have shaped the plane’s performance requirements. So any public debate about the plane’s warfighting potential is going to be a one-sided affair, with critics doing most of the talking. But there’s a reason why the Air Force and Marine Corps don’t feel the need to buy new jamming aircraft, and as the Navy begins operating carrier-based F-35s, its views on what capabilities are needed for the future could change too."

SOURCE: http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomps ... er-planes/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2014, 18:42
by southernphantom
This is speculation and not backed up by evidence, but I think that there is a very fair chance of 'stand-in' jamming being provided by UCLASS. It will have the VLO and loiter capability that would be necessary for operating within an IADS for a useful time period.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 31 Mar 2014, 19:59
by castlebravo
Could the Navy's desire to acquiremore Growers be due to a need to provide EW support for the fleet rather than the air wing? Even if the F-35 is perfectly capable of protecting itself (which I think it is), the warships may not be.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 01 Apr 2014, 02:10
by archeman
the presence of the legacy planes might tip off adversaries as to the attack vectors of the strikers. For instance, Chinese radars typically would not be able to track carrier-based F-35 fighters operating around Taiwan due to their combination of low observables and on-board electronic-warfare capabilities, but if Growlers were loitering in the vicinity that could simplify the task of figuring out where the stealthy planes were operating. Once a military service transitions to relying on fifth-generation technology to maintain its fighting edge, it needs to carefully think through how to exploit that technology for maximum tactical effect; mixing fourth- and fifth-generation planes in the same strike package could easily backfire.


The above premise is only true IF the mixed 4th gen and 5th gen aircraft in the strike package maintained a traditional (all 4th gen) defensive formation into the target area. This misuse of resources seems like an unlikely choice however. The 4th gen jammer aircraft could just as easily draw attention AWAY from the actual route of the primary 5th gen strike group.

One of the reasons that the jammers (4th gen) continue to be such a low quantity/high demand resource is that they demonstrate versatility in their mission application, and greatly complicate the task for defensive system planning.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 01 Apr 2014, 03:05
by popcorn
southernphantom wrote:This is speculation and not backed up by evidence, but I think that there is a very fair chance of 'stand-in' jamming being provided by UCLASS. It will have the VLO and loiter capability that would be necessary for operating within an IADS for a useful time period.


One of the approaches taken to ensure affordability of the LRS-B at around $500M a copy is not to load it with all the bells and whistles that would significantly raise it's cost. Mention has been made of a stealthy lon-range UAV that could accompany the new bomber on it's missions, providing EW support. This matches up with what has been revealed about the RQ-180 recently.,It's also consistent with an account I read somewhere of. a NG exhibit display sighted which depict a large UAV under the legend "stand-in airborne electronic atfack". So IMO the truth is out there.. :D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2014, 00:46
by spazsinbad
Because of budget constraints UCLASS may be limited - probably best to wait until Friday? when more info may be known - otherwise this post canvasses the issues: engine/weight/cost/stealth/payload/size etc....

Cost Will Drive UCLASS Designs 02 Apr 2014 Dave Majumdar

"...Industry sources told USNI News that there are positive indications that the Navy has finally settled on specifications for the UCLASS.

One industry source indicated that Sean Stackley, assistant secretary of the Navy for research, development and acquisition (RDA) was “OK with the draft RFP as it is,” but some additional reviews still need to be completed.

“The Navy is trying hard to make that happen,” the source said.

The service is operating within severe cost constraints and both industry and Navy officials say that the requirement for the UCLASS to deliver an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) orbit at “tactically significant ranges” for $150 million will not change.

Theoretically, two aircraft can cover one orbit if that aircraft is capable of flying for 14 hours, which means the maximum price point for a UCLASS air vehicle is about $75 million, according to industry sources...."

SOURCE: http://news.usni.org/2014/04/02/cost-wi ... ss-designs

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 07 Apr 2014, 23:43
by spazsinbad
Growlers Become MORE Aggressive - who knew? :devil: Promoters of GROWLERS get more aggressive - NATCH! :doh:
Navy Preparing for More Aggressive Growler Operations 07 Apr 2014 Dave Majumdar

"The U.S. Navy is shifting its airborne electronic attack (AEA) focus from disrupting the enemy’s targeting and tracking of allied aircraft to actively helping friendly forces find and eliminate enemy air defenses, service officials said at the Navy League’s Sea-Air-Space Exposition 2014 at National Harbor, Md. on Monday....

...Morley [Capt. Francis Morley, Naval Air Systems Command’s F/A-18 and EA-18G program manager] said that the Navy had demonstrated some of the new techniques at the Trident Warrior Fleet Exercises 2013 (Flex 2013).

These included cooperative passive geo-location of enemy emitters using the Rockwell Collins-developed Tactical Targeting Network Technology waveform and a technique called Emitter Time Distance of Arrival (TDOA) to feed data into the Common Operating Picture (COP). The COP in turn is a critical part of the Navy’s Naval Integrated Fire Control- Counter-Air (NIFC-CA) construct.

To make the best use of the new tactics, the Navy will need to integrate Raytheon’s Next Generation Jammers (NGJ) onto the Growler and increase the AEA squadron size to eight—up from five. However, the Navy has settled on increasing the unit composition to seven aircraft—that is if it can convince the Congress to fund additional Growlers....

...A Navy source said that while it is true the Growler is an excellent battle manager and targeting platform, the service would likely use the jet to pass that data to shooters like the Super Hornet under the NIFC-CA construct.

Though he could not share any details, Morley said that the first increment of NIFC-CA has been released early to the first F/A1-8 squadron that will deploy with the capability."

SOURCE: http://news.usni.org/2014/04/07/navy-pr ... operations

Conceptual loadouts for EA-18G Growler electronic attack aircraft. Boeing Image

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 01:35
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:Growlers Become MORE Aggressive - who knew? :devil: Promoters of GROWLERS get more aggressive - NATCH! :doh:


Just doing their best to push their request for those 22 additional Growlers in the unfunded items wish list. I'm betting X'mas comes early for Boeing. :D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 05:16
by neptune
popcorn wrote:[..Just doing their best to push their request for those 22 additional Growlers in the unfunded items wish list. I'm betting X'mas comes early for Boeing. :D


Yeah!, I still think that those "new" Growlers should go to the Corp to replace the last 20 EA-6Bs! Since the Corp is in line to test the NGJ with the EA-6B, maybe they can better evolve the NGJ with the extra Growlers, ....yeah!


....maybe a NGJ in a stealth pod on a stealth a/c with a great Mission System...hmmmmn... :lol: :lol: :applause:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 05:59
by Corsair1963
With Politics anything is possible. Yet, I doubt we will see anymore Growlers (Super Hornets) as the funds just aren't there.......As a matter of fact the Congress will be lucky to find the resources for the George Washington Refit. Let alone more Growlers! :doh:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 09:40
by spazsinbad
Get Yur Advanced Growler Nutrition Here (ONLY with added NGJ & ASH mind)...

http://www.aviationweek.com/Portals/AWe ... 202014.pdf (1.8Mb PDF)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 14:50
by XanderCrews
neptune wrote:
popcorn wrote:[..Just doing their best to push their request for those 22 additional Growlers in the unfunded items wish list. I'm betting X'mas comes early for Boeing. :D


Yeah!, I still think that those "new" Growlers should go to the Corp to replace the last 20 EA-6Bs! Since the Corp is in line to test the NGJ with the EA-6B, maybe they can better evolve the NGJ with the extra Growlers, ....yeah!


....maybe a NGJ in a stealth pod on a stealth a/c with a great Mission System...hmmmmn... :lol: :lol: :applause:


To the Marines, the Super Hornet has the all the appeal of a root canal without anesthetic. :x

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2014, 20:31
by spazsinbad
UCLASSy - UBETCHa... :devil:
Classified UCLASS Draft Request for Proposal Due at End of Month 08 Apr 2014 Dave Majumdar

"...The final RFP is expected to be released this summer—likely June or July [2014], Winter said. The program will go into, “source selection over the Christmas holidays.”

The Navy will pick a contractor in the middle of Fiscal Year 2015, Winter said. The Navy still hopes to get an operational UCLASS on the carrier flight deck within five years of a contract award.

“2020 is the expected, what we call, early operational capability of the UCLASS system,” Winter said.

While Winter would not share specific details about the what kind of design specifications the Navy is looking for in the UCLASS, he laid out the broad capabilities that the service is looking for — he emphasized — which have been stable since last April.

Those requirements call for the UCLASS to provide two intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) orbits 24 hours a day, seven days a week, while also providing a light strike capability inside permissive airspace.

It will also be “provisioned” for receiving fuel in the air and could act as a tanker, he said.


However, the Navy leadership has mandated that the UCLASS will be designed with a “technically feasible” path for growth so that the service does not need to spend “hundreds of millions of dollars later” to do major modifications as the service learns more about unmanned aircraft operations.

As such, the entire UCLASS system will be designed with completely open architectures and government-owned interfaces.

“As we go downrange, we don’t even know how we’re going to use UCLASS,” Winter said.

“We don’t know exactly how we’re going to operate it because we’ve never had a such a capability in our carrier environment.”

SOURCE: http://news.usni.org/2014/04/08/classif ... -end-month

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 00:46
by popcorn
Hopefully a sobering development for those yearning for UCLASS to supplant the F-35C. UCLASS will be very useful in various supporting roles in the CAW.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 08:27
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:Hopefully a sobering development for those yearning for UCLASS to supplant the F-35C. UCLASS will be very useful in various supporting roles in the CAW.



My guess is after 2020 we will see the Super Hornets used more and more in a supporting role. Mainly as "Tankers", FAC (A), and EW. (i.e. Growler)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2014, 19:58
by gtx
And as "second day" of war strikers.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2014, 20:40
by popcorn
Robert Work is expected to be confirmed as the No. 2 man at the Pentagon shortly and is a known proponent of using UCLASS to provide the CAW long-range power projection. We shall soon see if he manages to influence the specs in the RFP.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2014, 21:40
by spazsinbad
Naval Aviation Vision: A Preeminent Warfighting Force, Today And In The Future 2014 - 2025
(NAVY LIVE BLOG 16 APR 14) … Vice Adm. David H. Buss is Commander, Naval Air Forces.

"...Naval Aviation is committed to sustaining our capability advantages today and in the future, and the first section ofNaval Aviation Vision, 2014-2025 describes how we plan to do so. We highlight some of the key technologies that sustain and advance Naval Aviation’s capabilities, such as the F-35B/C Lightning II and the Ford-class aircraft carrier. We have adopted a strategy to deliver integrated warfighting capabilities. The concept of integrated warfighting capabilities is based on identifying, prioritizing and resolving high-priority gaps in “kill chains” and “effects chains” – the sequence of events that must occur to complete a particular kinetic or non-kinetic mission thread.

Our missions are moving toward greater integration, both from an operational perspective as well as from the earliest stages of the acquisition process. We can look at air warfare as an example. In the future, air warfare will involve greater integration with other naval aircraft – such as the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, EA-18G Growler, and maritime intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance platforms such as the MQ-4C Triton – and with Navy surface assets through the Cooperative Engagement Capability and eventually the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air operational view. Integrated warfare will be similarly imperative to achieving other Naval Aviation missions, including anti-submarine warfare, mine warfare, strike warfare, expeditionary warfare and information dominance.,,,

...Naval Aviation Vision, 2014-2025 concludes with an outline of Naval Aviation’s current and projected operational capacity, along with transformation roadmaps that show how we will build the capacity of the future. Today, nearly every aircraft community is in transition to a new, more capable platform. We expect that by 2025 many of these transitions will be complete, with aircraft such as the F-35B/C Lightning II, the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, and the MQ-C Fire Scout fully operational in the fleet....

...Naval Aviation is a team sport... Fly, Fight, Win! Vice Adm. Buss sends...."

http://www.public.navy.mil/airfor/nae/V ... Vision.pdf (11Mb)

SOURCE: http://hrana.org/articles/2014/04/naval ... he-future/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2014, 04:13
by spazsinbad
ON page five of this thread 'basher54321' mentioned 'wash'. I do not know the wash interval for Hornets on CVNs however here is an example of WASH even as the aircrew climb down from 'the last voyage of ENTERPRISE'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjKt_OZ ... r_embedded


Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2014, 03:00
by spazsinbad
Toward a Balanced Combat Air Force 11 Apr 2014 Mark Gunzinger & David A. Deptula

"In what may prove to be a brief strategic pause following the end of major operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, Congress and DoD have the opportunity to accord priority to developing a next-generation, balanced Combat Air Force(CAF) comprised of aircraft with the range, survivability, and connectivity with other combat systems needed to operate effectively over extended ranges and in contested environments. Sufficient resources must be allocated to support these priorities, rather than continuing to allocate a “fair share” of the defense budget to each of the Military Departments.

This report suggests that it is time for DoD and the Congress to take a hard look at the mix of combat air forces that will be needed to sustain America’s asymmetric airpower advantage. In particular, it argues that they should give precedence in the current age of austerity to fielding new long-range ISR and strike aircraft that will bolster the U.S. military’s Asia-Pacific posture and enable it to project power rapidly when and where needed."

SOURCE: http://www.csbaonline.org/publications/ ... air-force/

PDF: http://www.csbaonline.org/wp-content/up ... tation.pdf (1Mb)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2014, 07:19
by spazsinbad
Some info about the above Deptula Briefing: [Just Tops & Tails of article below]

Study: U.S. Combat Aviation Stuck in the Industrial Age 19 Apr 2014 Sandra I. Erwin

"U.S. combat air forces are ill equipped to fight a technologically empowered enemy, and it could be years or decades before the Pentagon deploys more advanced weapons. Such is the grim picture painted in a new study by the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. The authors, retired Air Force Lt. Gen. David Deptula and CSBA analyst Mark Gunzinger, make the case that aviation forces are not up to the challenges of 21st century warfare and the Pentagon has only itself to blame....

...To move its weapons into the 21st century, the Pentagon also needs help from Congress, Deptula added.

If the recent round of military oversight hearings on Capitol Hill is any guide, Congress is less worried about the modernization of the U.S. fleet than it is about protecting favored projects and jobs in members' home districts.

Air Force leaders have argued that, in times of declining budgets, they cannot afford to continue to sink money into aging airplanes and should redirect funding to new systems such as the F-35, a refueling tanker and a long-range bomber. While the plan sounds reasonable in theory, it has turned into a political football. Air Force officials have been hammered by lawmakers for their proposal to retire the entire A-10 fighter force, 46 older C-130 aircraft and the entire U-2 reconnaissance aircraft fleet.

These budget quagmires only keep the military saddled with older technology, the CSBA study said, and contribute to the erosion of the nation’s manufacturing base. “Fifty years ago, the Defense Department was in the process of building six fighters, three bombers, and two antisubmarine warfare aircraft,” said the report. Today, there is one new American fighter in production — the F-35 — and three that are about to end their production runs. “With the exception of the Air Force long-range bomber, the Navy’s P-8 maritime aircraft, and possibly a carrier unmanned combat aircraft, there are no other major new combat aircraft in the Defense Department’s program of record.”"

SOURCE: http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... a2&ID=1483

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2014, 22:43
by spazsinbad
"...“Stealth is ‘delayed detection’ and that delay is getting shorter...." :mrgreen: :doh:

"...officials pointed out that the Growler is not fully interoperable with joint forces...." :doh:

"...Greenert’s comments largely mirrors a Boeing presentation last week at the Navy League’s Sea, Air and Space exposition where Mike Gibbons, the company’s vice president for the F/A-18E/F and EA-18G programs, had stated that stealth aircraft must be supported by airborne electronic attack capabilities.

“The point is anybody that goes in can’t be good against any one frequency band because you will be seen by others, that’s the key,” Gibbons said. “The Growler is the only aircraft that has that full spectrum sensor and jamming capability to take care of that for strikers.”..." :devil:

Stealth Vs. Electronic Attack 21 Apr 2014 Dave Majumdar

"The U.S. Navy will need to use a combination of stealth and electronic warfare capabilities to defeat advanced anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) threats in the future, chief of naval operations Adm. Jonathan Greenert said on April 16 at the U.S. Naval Institute annual meeting in Washington, D.C.

“[Stealth] is needed for what we have in the future for at least ten years out there and there is nothing magic about that decade,” Greenert said. “But I think we need to look beyond that. So to me, I think it’s a combination of having aircraft that have stealth but also aircraft that can suppress other forms of radio frequency electromagnetic emissions so that we can get in.”

Electronic attack by itself will probably not be enough to enable U.S. forces to penetrate enemy air defenses, according to Greenert and multiple U.S. military and industry sources.

“I doubt in the future we can just suppress everything, go rolling in until we do what we need to do and get out,” Greenert said. “But we have the means for—way out in the future—with the Next Generation Jammer and what it’ll bring, to be able to get in when we need to and get out.”...

...“Boeing is in full-court press against the [Lockheed Martin] F-35 in this briefing. As such, when they describe the advantages of the Growler–which are accurate–they ignore the tradeoff for that advantage,” said one U.S. Air Force official. “The truth is that the Growler and LO [low observable] platforms complement each other extremely well.”

Lockheed Martin officials, however, maintain that the F-35 is able to operate inside highly contested airspace without any support assets.

“By government contract specification, the airplane is required to be able to go into high threat anti-access environments, autonomously perform its mission and survive,” said Eric Van Camp, Lockheed’s domestic F-35 business development director. “The results of flight test indicate conclusively that the airplane will meet that contract specification.
”...

...Further, officials from the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps agreed that while aircraft like the F-35 or F-22 are not solely relying on low observables for survivability—stealth is an absolute requirement to survive in an A2/AD environment even with airborne electronic attack support.

As one Air Force official explained, stealth and electronic attack always have a synergistic relationship because detection is about the signal to noise ratio. Low observables reduce the signal, while electronic attack increases the noise. “Any big picture plan, looking forward, to deal with emerging A2/AD threats will address both sides of that equation,” he said.

Air Force and Marine Corps officials took exception to Boeing pointing out that the F-35 only has X-band electronic attack coverage from the front. “Aft coverage may or may not be provided onboard any given fighter, but is provided by the package overall — which will likely include EA-18s,” one Air Force official pointed out.

However, Air Force and Marine Corps officials said that the Growler may not be particularly useful against emerging threats and noted that there are electronic warfare upgrades planned for the F-35 in addition to its baseline capability.

“The Growler itself, while a very credible aircraft, has limited suitability in an advanced A2/AD area,” one Air Force official said. “While it is the state of the art for now, I don’t know if it will be the appropriate jamming platform for the pictured environment.”

Nonetheless, a number of Air Force officials expressed support for the Pentagon potentially increasing the size of its Growler buy. “The Growler is a great asset, we probably need more, and it is an important part of a strike package into an advanced IADS [integrated air defense system],” one official said. “It is not as stand-alone as Boeing will claim.”...

....An industry source agreed that the Growler still faces interoperability problems when operating with Air Force assets, but that is true of many platform across the board. “There are interoperability issues across a lot of the platforms,” the industry source said. For example, Lockheed F-22s are only able to connect with other Raptors using the Intra-Flight Data-Link (IFDL), while the F-35 uses a Joint Strike Fighter-only Multifunction Advanced Data-Link (MADL). “This is one of the bigger issues the Air Sea Battle Office is attempting to resolve,” the industry source said....

...Though there is broad support for purchasing additional Growlers, it is not a stand-alone solution for dealing with advanced A2/AD threats.

“Stealth has its flaws, as the brief points out; however, if a new pod on a fourth gen platform was a workable answer against the modern and future IADS, I’m about 100 percent certain that USAF [U.S. Air Force] would be trying to buy a pile of them as well,” an Air Force official said.

“But the juice ain’t worth the squeeze, as they say.”"

SOURCE: http://news.usni.org/2014/04/21/stealth ... nic-attack


This is a LONG article with pictures and as always BEST READ AT SOURCE. Tah. :drool:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2014, 01:15
by popcorn
You definitely want both capabilities, to leverage every advantage you have. AF and Marines may have additional EW versatility having other options in addition to Growler whereas Navy, understandably, is heavily invested in the program. It will extend the usefulness of it's legacy jet fleet in a stand-off role At least they agree on one thing —stealth is an absolute requirement to survive in an A2/AD environment even with airborne electronic attack support.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2014, 04:42
by maus92
OMG.... up until now, many F-35ers here insisted dedicated EA/EW aircraft were unnecessary. Now, even some in the USAF are coming around.

"“Stealth has its flaws, as the brief points out; however, if a new pod on a fourth gen platform was a workable answer against the modern and future IADS, I’m about 100 percent certain that USAF [U.S. Air Force] would be trying to buy a pile of them as well,” an Air Force official said."

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2014, 05:41
by spazsinbad
USAF are coming around to 'a fourth gen aircraft with a 'new' pod' is not the answer for the future? :doh:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2014, 05:59
by popcorn
maus92 wrote:OMG.... up until now, many F-35ers here insisted dedicated EA/EW aircraft were unnecessary. Now, even some in the USAF are coming around.

"“Stealth has its flaws, as the brief points out; however, if a new pod on a fourth gen platform was a workable answer against the modern and future IADS, I’m about 100 percent certain that USAF [U.S. Air Force] would be trying to buy a pile of them as well,” an Air Force official said."



I guess you must have missed the sentence immediately following the one you quoted.. “But the juice ain’t worth the squeeze, as they say.” lemon juice? AF isn't on the Growler sales reps' itinerary for a reason.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2014, 22:28
by southernphantom
maus92 wrote:OMG.... up until now, many F-35ers here insisted dedicated EA/EW aircraft were unnecessary. Now, even some in the USAF are coming around.

"“Stealth has its flaws, as the brief points out; however, if a new pod on a fourth gen platform was a workable answer against the modern and future IADS, I’m about 100 percent certain that USAF [U.S. Air Force] would be trying to buy a pile of them as well,” an Air Force official said."


And yet, the USAF is providing backseaters for Navy EA-18Gs, so it looks like somebody sees the value in the capability.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2014, 06:13
by XanderCrews
maus92 wrote:OMG.... up until now, many F-35ers here insisted dedicated EA/EW aircraft were unnecessary. Now, even some in the USAF are coming around.


Fine cut off there, make sure not to include what else he said.

The Marines have been planning to put next gen jamming pods on their F-35s since 2007 ( I still have the USMC programs and systems book) I think that got put on the back burner, but with the NGJ in the future and prowlers on the outs, I'm willing to bet it comes back soon.

So I think you might be confusing "EA/EW aircraft unnecessary" with Growler being unnecessary. its a subtle difference, but an important one. Because it looks like soon Growler won't be the only game in town (well it almost done in production anyway but you get my meaning), and hell maybe even the USAF and other F-35 operators will buy the NGJ pods and have the same EA/EW aircraft without needing to buy a whole separate type of aircraft complete with a GIB.

like having your cake and eating it too.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2014, 01:19
by southernphantom
XanderCrews wrote:
maus92 wrote:OMG.... up until now, many F-35ers here insisted dedicated EA/EW aircraft were unnecessary. Now, even some in the USAF are coming around.


Fine cut off there, make sure not to include what else he said.

The Marines have been planning to put next gen jamming pods on their F-35s since 2007 ( I still have the USMC programs and systems book) I think that got put on the back burner, but with the NGJ in the future and prowlers on the outs, I'm willing to bet it comes back soon.

So I think you might be confusing "EA/EW aircraft unnecessary" with Growler being unnecessary. its a subtle difference, but an important one. Because it looks like soon Growler won't be the only game in town (well it almost done in production anyway but you get my meaning), and hell maybe even the USAF and other F-35 operators will buy the NGJ pods and have the same EA/EW aircraft without needing to buy a whole separate type of aircraft complete with a GIB.

like having your cake and eating it too.


A while back, Israel was on about wanting a two-seat F-35. Honestly, unless the NGJ is sufficiently automated to facilitate operation by a single pilot, it would have to be on a two-seat aircraft. The alternative is to dump NGJ control to an offboard operator, which would require a continuous datalink back to whatever platform. This could be a carrier, some notional or extant C2 bird such as AWACS, JSTARS, or Hawkeye, or God-knows-what-else. My concern here is that the datalink would require both aircraft to be radiating, which could be a point of vulnerability depending on what datalink is being used, and could be interrupted by emergent events. Loss of intelligent control of your EW is, to put it bluntly, not what you want.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2014, 06:07
by spazsinbad
USAF join USN as 'eyes & ears' of da fleet....
Navy, Air Force Team Up in Asia-Pacific Region 22 May 2014 Amaani Lyle, American Forces Press Service

"WASHINGTON, May 22, 2014 – The Navy and the Air Force are collaborating as part of the Defense Department’s rebalance to the Asia-Pacific region, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jonathan W. Greenert said here yesterday.

The Naval Integrated Fire Control–Counter Air Capability-Based System, which employs the teaming of services’ situational awareness and strike capabilities to detect and attack targets at long range, is prominent in organizing concepts that the Navy and Air Force are using to conduct counter-air operations now and into the future, Greenert said in remarks at the Defense Working Group breakfast.

“We are taking elements of Navy Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air and integrating them into exercises we run with the Air Force [such as] Northern Edge … in Alaska and Valiant Shield [in Guam],” Greenert said. “The whole idea is getting the tactical data links and those networks compatible -- the air-sea battle brought this together.”

The admiral explained that the challenge at hand is how to integrate submarines, other vessels and aircraft to bring a common effect.

NIFC-CA, Greenert said, involves assessing the inventory and area denial systems such as platforms, payloads and sensors, as well as analyzing what elements of NIFC-CA to which the Air Force could contribute.

“You lay [the elements] out there and say, ‘That’s nice. Now how do they operate together?’” Greenert said. “You’re using Aegis cruisers and destroyer ships, everybody sees the same thing and therefore they can shoot the weapon based on what you see.”

The key, Greenert explained, is to sort through the tactical nets -- such as the Air Force’s F-35A aircraft, the Navy’s F-35C and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft, and the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System -- so the two services can share information."

SOURCE: http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=122303

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2014, 19:29
by spazsinbad
Another long article best read at source - MAJOR bits have been left out from only excerpts below....
Navy Considers it’s Beyond-the-Horizon Future 22 May 2014 Kris Osborn

"The Navy is in the early phases of considering new sensors, aircraft and weapons it could add to its beyond-the-horizon strike and cruise missile intercept system, service officials said.

The system, called Naval Integrated Fire Control – Counter Air, or NIFC-CA, uses a Standard Missile 6 and an E-2D Hawkeye aircraft as an airborne sensor to track and destroy approaching cruise missiles at much longer distances than existing technologies can.

NIFC-CA uses an airborne sensor and the SM-6 missile to enable ships to locate and destroy approaching threats from distances well beyond the existing radar horizon, Navy officials said.

Although still in the middle of a rigorous testing regiment in preparation for deployment in 2015, the NIFC-CA system is showing promise and leading Navy thinkers, developers and futurists to contemplate additional uses for the technology.

“Can we develop other sensors which we can incorporate into the architecture of the future? What are future platforms going to have to do with NIFC-CA? Is the Joint Strike Fighter going to have a role with NIFC-CA? [IS IT WOT!] Is there a UAV component that we could use in the future?” Capt. James Kilby, Deputy for Ballistic Missile Defense, AEGIS Combat Systems and Destroyers in the Surface Warfare Directorate, told Military​.com in an interview.

Working in tandem with airborne sensors, the SM-6 missile uses an active and semi-active seeker to locate and guide itself toward targets beyond the horizon, said Michael Campisi, senior director, SM-6, Raytheon.

“The SM-6 is a multi-mission missile. It uses active and semi-active modes that are part of the ability to intercept beyond the line of sight. The booster gives you the range and the active mode gives you the over-the-horizon ability,” Campisi said.

The Navy has more NIFC-CA tests planned in coming months....

...NIFC-CA could allow ships to be closer to the shore in some instances because the ship would have the technology to thwart or destroy land-launched anti-ship cruise missiles. At the same time, there may be instances where NIFC-CA would enable a ship to operate and accomplish its mission objectives at greater distances, Kilby added.

One analyst said NIFC-CA extends the Navy’s strategic range....

...“The concept of integrated fire control is it is all about breaking what has been a slavish relationship between the sensor and the shooter; integrated fire control allows you to employ weapons to their max kinematic ranges,” he said....

...Developing NIFC-CA is an integral part of the Navy’s broader post-Iraq and Afghanistan strategy which seeks to return the service to a more pronounced surface warfare emphasis and what’s called blue-water combat. This involves a re-balance to the Pacific as well a focus on anti-submarine warfare, surface warfare and integrated air and missile defense, among other things."

SOURCE: http://www.dodbuzz.com/2014/05/22/navy- ... on-future/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2014, 23:18
by popcorn
One hole Navy has to address is how to benefit from,NIFC-CA when no CVN is present. Forward-deployed DDGs and CGs not forming part of a CSG, perhaps part f an,ESG or operating autonomously, will not be able to maximize the reach of their SM-6s.
Add edit - perhaps AF may help plug the capability gap. Also, DARPA,is,working on a Predator-szed UAV that LCS-2 can launch and recover..,fit that thing out with conformal,AESAs,and the Surface Combatants exponentially expand their reach and coverage.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2014, 00:02
by SpudmanWP
They have launched SM-6 missiles based on Army radar guidance (the big blimps)

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=69829
http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/jlens/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2014, 00:43
by popcorn
SpudmanWP wrote:They have launched SM-6 missiles based on Army radar guidance (the big blimps)

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=69829
http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/jlens/

Indeed, a positive sign of the increased,emphasis on improving interoperability. No reason why USAF AWACs and similar aircraft like Oz Wedgetails can't contribute as well.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2014, 00:43
by exosphere
There's one thing I never got about this article -- why use the F-35s just as ISR nodes? Why not just add JDAMs and ditch the whole "Super Hornets with standoff weapons" thing? I mean, when you think about it, the F-35s are going to have to fly over the hostile area to gather target information anyways, so you're not gaining any survivability advantage by using Super Hornets with JASSMs or other cruise missiles. If anything, you're decreasing survivability by forcing the F-35 to loiter over the area to wait for the cruise missile to get there and provide targeting information. You're also using a potentially million dollar plus cruise missile instead of a $25,000 JDAM, and using two different kinds of aircraft increases logistics costs, so you're not exactly saving money or reducing manpower/logistics requirements.

To me, it just seems like a Rube Goldberg solution. Instead of using a single aircraft with a single pilot to drop a $25,000 JDAM on a target and get out of dodge, you're using two different aircraft with three pilots to drop a $1.5 million cruise missile that requires targeting data links and has a much lower reliability than a JDAM (smsgtmac has a pretty good graphic displaying the discrepancy between the reliability of JDAMs with developmental software and the reliability of cruise missiles), as well as reducing the F-35's survivability and adding an extra point of failure (the Super Hornet being shot down by a CAP or some other enemy activity) to boot.

EDIT: I just checked for the Super Hornet's maximum loadout, and it can carry two JASSMs to use in a "standoff" configuration. The F-35, on the other hand, can carry two JDAMs or eight SDBs in a stealth configuration (and still carry two A2A weapons), if you choose to use it directly instead of using the Super Hornet. So, you're not getting any advantage in terms of the number of weapons that can be delivered per sortie by using the Super Hornet as a standoff weapons platform, either. In fact, if you're trying to hit "lighter" targets that don't need to be hit by a 1,000 lb warhead, you can use the SDB instead, and destroy four times as many targets with the F-35 as you could with a cruise missile-carrying Super Hornet.

As an aside, you're not getting any range benefit either, both because the Navy's plan requires the F-35 to actually get to the target area, and because the F-35 has a greater range than the Super Hornet.

It seems to serve no purpose other than trying to kludge the Super Hornet into the equation to try to make it seem useful.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2014, 01:00
by popcorn
exosphere wrote:There's one thing I never got about this article -- why use the F-35s just as ISR nodes? Why not just add JDAMs and ditch the whole "Super Hornets with standoff weapons" thing? I mean, when you think about it, the F-35s are going to have to fly over the hostile area to gather target information anyways, so you're not gaining any survivability advantage by using Super Hornets with JASSMs or other cruise missiles. If anything, you're decreasing survivability by forcing the F-35 to loiter over the area to wait for the cruise missile to get there and provide targeting information. You're also using a potentially million dollar plus cruise missile instead of a $25,000 JDAM, and using two different kinds of aircraft increases logistics costs, so you're not exactly saving money or reducing manpower/logistics requirements.

To me, it just seems like a Rube Goldberg solution. Instead of using a single aircraft with a single pilot to drop a $25,000 JDAM on a target and get out of dodge, you're using two different aircraft with three pilots to drop a $1.5 million cruise missile that requires targeting data links and has a much lower reliability than a JDAM (smsgtmac has a pretty good graphic displaying the discrepancy between the reliability of JDAMs with developmental software and the reliability of cruise missiles), as well as reducing the F-35's survivability and adding an extra point of failure (the Super Hornet being shot down by a CAP or some other enemy activity) to boot.


Navy had to come up with a solution that can make use of their large SH fleet, even if it is going to be limited primarily to,a stand-off role. Still useful aircraft ... I like them as aerial tankers.,This means downplaying the role of the F-35, stressing it's ISR and networking facets which are game-changing, though as you correctly point out it could do kinetic strike missions more cost-effectively than the Rhino.

The AF OTOH has made it very clear they want to,transition to an all,5Gen force sooner than later..,"Invest in the future, not in the past" what fmr.,Gen. Dave Deptula used to say.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2014, 14:47
by spazsinbad
Apologies if some of this info is elsewhere on forum but it gets confuzin' after the long downtime. :mrgreen:
Navy seeks links for denied environments 28 May 2014 Michael Peck

“The U.S. Navy is seeking secure data links for operating in denied environments.

The Navy is concerned about the growing problem of data link being interrupted by either hostile jamming or interference from friendly radio sources. So the Navy has put out a small business innovation research solicitation for secure data links to support both wideband radio and laser communications.

"Recent advancements in both WB [wideband] RF (2 Ghz–15 Ghz) and Lasercom technologies could be used to overcome many of the challenges," the Navy suggested. "WB RF and/or Lasercom technologies can be used for providing anti-jam and low probability of interception and detection (LPI/LPD) communications."

The Navy also wants a digital data link, operating at electro-optic/infrared EO/IR sensor system frequencies, that supports encryption and two-way communications. The technology would eventually be tested on the F/A-18 and F-35.”

Source: http://www.c4isrnet.com/article/M7/2014 ... vironments

Legacy Fighters Share Fifth-Gen Toys 28 May 2014

“F-22 and F-35 fighters translated and passed fifth-generation sensor and communication data to legacy aircraft on the Link 16 network during a series of recent demo flights at Nellis AFB, Nev., and Edwards AFB, Calif., Northrop Grumman announced May 27. The Joint Capability Technology Demonstration, known as Jetpack, "implemented a system to allow fourth-generation fighters to access the bounty of sensor information from the fifth-generation aircraft," said Jeannie Hilger, vice president of the company's communications division. The internal or pod-carried system "leverages Northrop Grumman's F-35 avionics development to provide a production-ready, affordable solution for our joint forces," added Hilger. The JCTD program to develop the system is sponsored by Air Combat Command, the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and US Pacific Command. Test flights from Nellis were successfully completed in March and the final phase at Edwards wrapped up last month, according to the company.”

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -Toys.aspx

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2014, 15:55
by spazsinbad
MOre On the NIFC-CA now with more powerful radars for E-2Ds. Long article - only last bit below....
The U.S. Navy’s Secret Counter-Stealth Weapon Could Be Hiding in Plain Sight
09 Jun 2014 Dave Majumdar

"...Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin appear to have overcome the traditional limitations of UHF-band radars in the APY-9 by applying a combination of advanced electronic scanning capability together with enormous digital computing power in the form of space/time adaptive processing. The Navy would not directly address the issue, but service officials did say the APY-9 provides a massive increase in performance over the E-2C Hawkeye 2000’s radar.

“The E-2D APY-9 radar provides a significantly enhanced airborne early warning and situational awareness capability against all air targets including threat aircraft and cruise missiles,” said Naval Air Systems Command spokesman Rob Koon in an emailed statement to USNI News.

“The modern technology of the APY-9 radar provides a substantial improvement in performance over the E-2C’s APS-145 radar whose heritage dates back to the 1970s.”

But the Navy openly talks about the E-2D’s role as the central node of its Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) (pronounced: nifk-kah) construct to defeat enemy air and missile threats—Rear Adm. Mike Manazir, the Navy’s director of air warfare, described the concept in detail to USNI News last December.

Under the NIFC-CA ‘From the Air’ (FTA) construct, the APY-9 radar can act as a sensor to cue Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles for Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets fighters via the Link-16 datalink.

Additionally, the APY-9 also acts as a sensor to guide Standard SM-6 missiles launched from Aegis cruisers and destroyers against targets located beyond the ships’ SPY-1 radars’ horizon via the Cooperative Engagement Capability datalink under the NIFC-CA ‘From the Sea’ (FTS) construct. And thus far, all live-fire NIFC-CA missile shots have been successful.


The first increment of NIFC-CA is set to be fielded later this year when the first E-2D squadron, VAW-125, is set to declare initial operating capability in October 2014. NIFC-CA will be declared operational concurrently with that squadron.

The APY-9 is a unique design in many respects, NAVAIR and Northrop brag that the radar is a “two-generation leap” over the APS-145 in an information booklet the service has been distributing. While externally the radar appears to be no different than the purely mechanically-scanned AN/APS-145—also built by Lockheed Martin–internally it is an another matter entirely.

While the APY-9 does rotate inside the E-2D’s dish-shaped radome to achieve 360-degree coverage, the crew of the aircraft can control the antenna rotation speed to focus on an area of interest according to NAVAIR. Further, the 18-channel passive phased-array ADS-18 antenna has the ability to steer its radar beam electronically. It also incorporates an electronically-scanned identification friend or foe system.

The transmitter and receiver hardware are located inside the aircraft’s fuselage and connect to the antenna via high power radiofrequency transmission lines and a high power radiofrequency rotary coupler. Thus, it is not an active electronically scanned array radar.

The APY-9 has three distinct radar modes, Advanced Airborne Early Warning Surveillance, Enhanced Sector Scan, and Enhanced Tracking Sector.

Advanced Airborne Early Warning Surveillance is the normal operating mode for the radar to provide uniform 360-degree, simultaneous air and surface coverage with long-range detection of low radar cross-section targets. The antenna rotates 360 degrees every ten seconds or so when it is operating in this primarily mechanically scanned mode.

The Enhanced Sector Scan mode merges traditional mechanical scanning with steerable electronic scanning to leverage the benefits of both technologies while simultaneously mitigating the shortcomings of either methodology. The antenna rotates mechanically, but the operator can select a specific sector where the rotation of the antenna is slowed to focus on an area.

Enhanced Tracking Sector is a pure electronically scanned mode, where the antenna is geographically stabilized or following a particular target. This mode provides enhanced detection and tracking in a selected sector by stopping the antenna and scanning purely electronically. This mode is particularly useful against low-observable targets due to its rapid track updates.

The APY-9 has a range of at least 300 nautical miles and seems to be limited only by the performance of the E-2D airframe–which normally operates at 25,000ft.

The Navy ultimately hopes to buy a total of 75 E-2D with the last examples entering the fleet in the 2020s."

Source: http://news.usni.org/2014/06/09/u-s-nav ... lain-sight

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2014, 23:01
by popcorn
Strange, I always thought the Advanced. Hawkeye used AESA but the article explicitly says otherwise.

The transmitter and receiver hardware are located inside the aircraft’s fuselage and connect to the antenna via high power radiofrequency transmission lines and a high power radiofrequency rotary coupler. Thus, it is not an active electronically scanned array radar.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2014, 23:33
by SpudmanWP

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2014, 00:10
by popcorn

Yep, clear enough now. I guess years back when AESA was beginning to become a buzzword, some,writer just assumed any new Hawkeye radar would be AESA and this myth was picked up and replicated thru media, blogs, forums.. the few in the actual know probably felt no,compunction to steer the herd... regardless of tech, quite impressive performance and am,wondering how much of the tech will pollinate over to E-3 AWACS?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2014, 04:26
by KamenRiderBlade
Is there any advantage of using PESA over AESA in the E-3 Hawkeye?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2014, 05:15
by SpudmanWP
The issue is the rotating connector in the hub.

An AESA would require MAY more connectors and increase cost & complexity SUBSTANTIALLY.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2014, 05:19
by KamenRiderBlade
SpudmanWP wrote:The issue is the rotating connector in the hub.

An AESA would require MAY more connectors and increase cost & complesity SUBSTANTIALLY.



Good thing E-3 wasn't stealthy to begin with, so having PESA wouldn't really compromise much.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 05 Aug 2014, 03:43
by spazsinbad
On earlier pages of this thread is info on ATDL - this snippet of news does not seem to have appeared on this forum and it is a bit late - is that a Spanish/Mexican Siesta thing? But anyway....
delivered an innovative new communications antenna
04 Aug 2014 HONEYWELL AEROSPACE

"Contract Awarded for delivered an innovative new communications antenna that will enable the U.S. Military to conduct highly secure communicationsbetween new and older generation aircraft - Contract Awarded Date: May 2014

Part of the Office of the Secretary of Defense Emerging Capability & Prototyping s Jetpack 5th to 4th Joint Capability Technology Demonstration (JCTD) program, the technology enables secure communications between the F-35 Lightning II and F-22 Raptor aircraft. It also provides a secure communication link between these aircraft and other key platforms such as legacy fighters, bombers, and airborne battlefield management, command and control aircraft.

Officially named the dual-band advanced tactical data link (ATDL) antenna, the system was developed in conjunction with the Northrop Grumman Freedom 550 Joint Enterprise Terminal and supports both the F-22 Intra-flight Data Link (IFDL) and F-35 Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL) data communications. The ATDL antenna system uses Honeywell's expertise in data communications to provide customers a more efficient solution and requires a dramatically smaller installation footprint than alternatives."

Source: http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2014/8/ ... ntenna.htm

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 05 Aug 2014, 08:12
by popcorn
Not just 5G to 5G and 5G to 4G AFAIK...For the NFC-CA concept, ATDL would apparently be the stealthy data link to allow F-35C in eyes and ears mode to communicate with the E-2D.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2014, 18:36
by spazsinbad
If this co-operation goes ahead then I guess the RAN is going to join NIFC-CA [Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air](pronounced: nifk-kah) along with our RAAF with the F-35As (and any Bs on LHDs?) but all I can get (not a joiner) is this:
US plan to fire from Australian ships
09 Aug 2014 Greg Sheridan | The Australian

"AUSTRALIAN and US foreign and defence ministers will start ­negotiations next week which could lead to American commanders being able to fire missiles directly from Australian ships...."

Source: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 018493675#

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Aug 2014, 23:46
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:If this co-operation goes ahead then I guess the RAN is going to join NIFC-CA [Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air](pronounced: nifk-kah) along with our RAAF with the F-35As (and any Bs on LHDs?) but all I can get (not a joiner) is this:
US plan to fire from Australian ships
09 Aug 2014 Greg Sheridan | The Australian

"AUSTRALIAN and US foreign and defence ministers will start ­negotiations next week which could lead to American commanders being able to fire missiles directly from Australian ships...."

Source: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 018493675#

The RAN's new Hobart-class AWDs armed with SM-6 feature the latest AEGIS tech including CEC. I expect they will be able to operate quite seamlessly with the USN in Sensor/Shooter mode if that is the intent.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2014, 10:26
by spazsinbad
Non-Standard: Navy SM-6 Kills Cruise Missiles Deep Inland
19 Aug 2014 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"...a Standard Missile-6 successfully intercepted a mock cruise missile flying low and slow over land. Hitting that target is one sign of how far Navy missile defense programs have cast their net beyond their traditional domain.

The Navy’s Standard Missile is, as the bland name says, the Navy’s standard missile to defend the fleet against incoming strikes by enemy aircraft and anti-ship missiles. (Attacking enemy ships and ground targets is done by other missiles altogether). In recent years, though, the Raytheon-made missile has branched out. The standard Standard, the SM-2, is a straightforward fleet-defense weapon, with some capability to intercept targets over the land and even hit enemy ships. But the military is developing a long-range, high-altitude SM-3 variant to intercept ballistic missiles as they coast through space.

Then there’s the SM-6, first issued to the fleet last fall. “It’s the latest evolution of the Standard Missile family,” Navy Cdr. Sidney Hodgson told me. (SM-4 and SM-5 never saw service). “It doesn’t replace the SM-2,” which will stay in service alongside the SM-6, he emphasized, but “it gives you increased firepower, it gives you extended range.”

To save costs, the Standard Missile Six is an unholy hybrid of the long-range rocket motor from the SM-3, the agile aerodynamic body of the SM-2, and the nose of an AMRAAM air-to-air missile, normally carried by fighter planes. It’s the borrowed AMRAAM components in particular that let the SM-6 pick out tricky targets like a cruise missile maneuvering at low altitude and low speed over land. Even in the desert, the land is never as smooth and flat as the sea, so a low-flying target can hide itself amidst the “ground clutter” of natural features — hills, rocks, buildings — that also show up on radar.

“What we were attempting to show was, [given] something that was subsonic, very low, could we discriminate and engage it?” said Raytheon’s senior program director for SM-6, Mike Campisi. “It was wonderful to see.”

The earlier SM-2 can intercept low-flying targets over land “in some scenarios,” Campisi told me, but that missile relies on the ship to continually “illuminate” the target with its radar. SM-6 has its own built-in targeting radar, more range, and much more capability to intercept a maneuvering target. It will also be able home in on a target too distant for the ship that launched it to detect, using data relayed from other ships or aircraft over the Navy’s future NIFC-CA battle network....

...Campisi and Hodgson told me not to typecast the SM-6. It’s capable of killing both helicopters and fixed-wing planes, Hodgson said, both manned aircraft and drones, as well as missiles. Previous tests included at-sea launches against both low-altitude, subsonic targets and high-altitude, supersonic ones. All have been successful, Campisi said: “We’re 14 for 14 right now.”

Roughly a hundred SM-6 missiles have already been issued to the fleet — what’s called Early Operational Capability — for use with the “Baseline 7″ version of the Aegis fire control system. The current series of tests are proving the missile’s compatibility with the latest Aegis upgrade, Baseline 9C, which can engage enemy aircraft and ballistic missiles at the same time. Overall, the latest tests are meant “to really stretch the envelope [against] a wide range of threat sets,” Campisi said. “We’ve always tried to make this a multi-purpose weapon.”..."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/08/non- ... ep-inland/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2014, 01:28
by popcorn
The aaccompanying image to Spaz' linked article... a pic is worth a thousand words.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2014, 15:53
by sferrin
I wish they'd let us see the video. :(

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2014, 17:12
by archeman
sferrin wrote:I wish they'd let us see the video. :(


That could be it.
Last two frames...

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2014, 02:19
by bring_it_on
Video will be out shortly ;)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2014, 11:25
by spazsinbad
I wonder how TRITON will become involved in all of this:

http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... ry&id=5714

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2014, 11:49
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:I wonder how TRITON will become involved in all of this:

http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... ry&id=5714

Triton and it's partner Poseidon sensor suites are focused on the maritime surface/sub-surface domains and don't really factor into the Counter-Air arena. Will expect them to be tied into the whole NCW paradigm and contribute to the overall picture. Different horses for,different courses.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2014, 12:32
by spazsinbad
How about the TRITON also having relay of data/change waveform (to MADL?) functions - that would not be a stretch?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2014, 12:47
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:How about the TRITON also having relay of data/change waveform (to MADL?) functions - that would not be a stretch?

Technically just a mater of incorporating JetPack tech onto TRITON I guess but not clear on the business case.i.e. is the intent to communicate with F-35? If so, privacy not a concern as Triton isn't LO AFAIK so Link-16 may suffice. F-35 to communicate with TRITON via stealthy MALD link? Maybe if the latter is gonna serve as some sort of relay as you note.
I can see a need for a,MADL link to Poseidon,as it is a weaponized platform i.e. sensor/shooter. Perhaps toss off some LRASMs based on F-35 input? Exciting times with many new capabilities at hand or soon to be.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 Aug 2014, 04:17
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:How about the TRITON also having relay of data/change waveform (to MADL?) functions - that would not be a stretch?


Wow! the hotly heated furnace of imagination!; Triton as a comm node (possibly); weapons carrying for a global hawk version is not likely, any weapons (weight) less range/ endurance. (i.e.) ...the flight took 22 hours, (8,214.44 mi)...the flight 33.1 hours at altitudes up to 60,000 feet...was tasked with maintenance of maritime situational awareness, contact tracking, and imagery support of various exercise operations.... Maritime Modes is made up of a Maritime Moving Target Indicator and a Maritime Inverse Synthetic Aperture Radar (MISAR) that function together to provide ISR information on vessels traveling on the water's surface. .. Maritime Modes is planned to be integrated with the RQ-4B's existing (MP-RTIP) Multi-Platform Radar Technology Insertion Program radar that detects and produces synthetic aperture radar imagery of ground vehicles

The Navy MQ-4C differs from the Air Force RQ-4 mainly in its wing. The fuselage comprises an aluminum, semi-monocoque construction; the wings are made of lightweight high-strength composite materials. Triton climbs to 50,000 ft to see a wide area and can drop to 10,000 ft to get further identification of a target. The Triton's wings are specially designed to take the stresses of rapidly decreasing altitude. Though similar in appearance to the Global Hawk's wings, the Triton's internal wing structure is much stronger and has additional features including anti-icing capabilities and impact and lightning strike protection.

Each RQ-4 air vehicle is powered by an Allison Rolls-Royce AE3007H turbofan engine with 7,050 lbf thrust, and carries a payload of 2,000 pounds (sensor packages). So far, no wing stations.

enjoy :)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2014, 04:35
by spazsinbad
I guess I could look at / for later USN Aviation Vision PDFs but this one is just excellent with great photos and illustrations and of course must be a large PDF. I wonder how this 2008 version differs from any 2014 version.
NAVAL AVIATION VISION Roadmaps - Unmanned Aircraft Systems
JANUARY 2008

"...Penetrating UAS N-UCAS
Naval Aviation is pursuing the development of an unmanned, low observable, carrier-based aircraft for missions in high-threat environments. With an IOC of 2025, N-UCAS is envisioned to be the strikefighter recapitalization platform (F/A-XX) for heavily defended and denied access targets in maritime, littoral, and overland environments. N-UCAS operator intervention will be minimal, required only for such things as mission planning inputs, updates, target selection, and weapons release approval. In August 2007, the contractor for the UCAS aircraft carrier suitability demonstration (UCAS-D) was selected. UCAS-D is a technical effort designed to demonstrate the carrier suitability of an autonomous, low-observable, unmanned air vehicle and critical technologies relevant to the shipboard environment. This effort is scheduled to conclude in 2013 and will include catapult takeoffs from, and arrested landings aboard, an actual aircraft carrier.

Future Carrier Air Wings (circa 2025) will be transitioning from a mix of F/A-18 and F-35 squadrons to a mix of F-35 and N-UCAS / F/A-XX squadrons. This mix will provide the Navy with the capability to conduct non-traditional ISR in denied access areas, initial SEAD / DEAD, and penetrating strike missions at reduced risk during the early phases of a campaign.

Persistent UAS Global Hawk Maritime Demonstration (GHMD)
GHMD is an initiative directed by the Secretary of the Navy to demonstrate a multi-sensor, persistent ISR, high-altitude UAS capability well before the IOC of the BAMS UAS. The GHMD Program capitalized on the Air Force’s Global Hawk production line by purchasing two air vehicles (with the radar sensor software modified to provide a limited maritime capability) and the accompanying ground station equipment. GHMD is being used for a manned / unmanned aircraft CONOPS; developing Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures (TTP); and collecting lessons learned that will benefit the BAMS UAS Program. Commander, Patrol and Reconnaissance Group (CPRG) is the fleet lead for exercise participation and experimentation.

BAMS UAS
The BAMS UAS Program, scheduled to complete technology development and begin SDD in FY 2008, is integral to the Navy’s airborne ISR recapitalization strategy, along with the P-8A Poseidon and EPX. It will provide a persistent (24 / 7), multi-sensor (radar, EO, IR, ESM), maritime surveillance and communications relay capability with worldwide access, enhancing situational awareness of the battlespace and shortening the sensor-to-shooter kill chain. BAMS UAS will be forward-deployed, landbased, and autonomously operated. As a FORCEnet enabler, it will serve as a distributed ISR node in the maritime environment and help build and sustain the COP for the Fleet Commander. BAMS UAS will be operated under the cognizance of the Maritime Patrol and Reconnaissance Group and its initial infrastructure will be incorporated into fleet TSCs. It is part of the transformation roadmap for the P-3C (see pp. 42-43). IOC is scheduled for FY 2014.

Source: http://www2.omnitecinc.com/files/NAV_Jan08.pdf (30.8Mb)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 Aug 2014, 23:09
by spazsinbad
More recently TRITON has been babbling successfully over the horizon....
Navy’s Strike and Unmanned Aviation System capabilities
July-September 2014 CHIPS Magazine

" MQ-4C Triton test air vehicles at Northrop Grumman’s facility in Palmdale, Calif., will fly cross-country to NAS Patuxent River this fall. The MQ-4C completed a test flight Aug. 19 with updated software that enables additional beyond-line-of-sight communication capabilities. This test marked the first time Pax River’s Navy System Integration Lab took control of the flight and landed the aircraft in Palmdale. It was also the first time the aircraft used a wide band satellite communications command and control link, which allows for rapid transmission of data....

...The Navy’s largest investment in unmanned aircraft to date, the MQ-4C Triton, will bring unparalleled awareness of the maritime environment with the capability to maintain five continuous orbits around the globe.

Teamed with its manned-capability counterpart, the P-8A, Triton will be a key component of the Navy’s family of systems to achieve maritime domain awareness.

I envision our PEO’s role in the development of UAS will continue to play a critical role for the future warfighter as the Navy’s use of unmanned systems increases, particularly in the maritime domain...."

Source: http://www.dcmilitary.com/article/20140 ... pabilities

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Oct 2014, 01:25
by spazsinbad
Everyone is going to grow 'ears & spears' in the USN (and our RAN I'ma hopin'):
Navy Forges New EW Strategy: Electromagnetic Maneuver Warfare
10 Oct 2014 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr. and Colin Clark

"...The Navy Vision: Beyond The Growler...
...“Everyone looks at the EA-18G as ‘the’ electronic warfare platform,” said Capt. Scott Farr, deputy commander of the Pacific Fleet’s electronic attack wing on Whidbey Island, Washington. “Well, in naval aviation, we are interweaving electronic warfare into every platform.” That includes the new P-8 Poseidon patrol plane, the upgraded E-2D Hawkeye radar plane, even the MH-60R helicopter, plus the soon-to-arrive F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, he told me in a phone call: “All of those platforms are going to have a lot more play in… electronic warfare.”

“The whole basis of electronic maneuver warfare is to bring all those capabilities to bear,” agreed Gamberg at the AOC conference. “The EA-18G with the Next Generation Jammer is really the cornerstone capability,” he said, but only by using every possible platform — even submarines — to collect intelligence can the Navy detect elusive, low-power and rapidly changing enemy signals...."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/10/navy ... r-warfare/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2014, 10:22
by spazsinbad
Wonder what the airborne twackers were and when will the F-35s get to do this?
Target missile intercepted during test off Hawaii
17 Oct 2014 Associated Press

"KEKAHA >> The military says it successfully intercepted a medium-range missile during a test off Hawaii.

The Defense Department says Thursday's test was to demonstrate that the Aegis defense system can engage and track a ballistic missile while using only tracks from remote airborne sensors.

The target missile was launched from Kauai's Pacific Missile Range Facility...."

Source: http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/brea ... awaii.html

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 Oct 2014, 12:57
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:Wonder what the airborne twackers were and when will the F-35s get to do this?
Target missile intercepted during test off Hawaii
17 Oct 2014 Associated Press

"KEKAHA >> The military says it successfully intercepted a medium-range missile during a test off Hawaii.

The Defense Department says Thursday's test was to demonstrate that the Aegis defense system can engage and track a ballistic missile while using only tracks from remote airborne sensors.

The target missile was launched from Kauai's Pacific Missile Range Facility...."

Source: http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/brea ... awaii.html

Both E-2 and JLENS are CEC-compatible so one of the two.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2014, 00:46
by spazsinbad
Two USN ships get jiggy with it - NIFC-CA baby:
You Spot, I Shoot: Aegis Ships Share Data To Destroy Cruise Missiles
24 Oct 2014 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"...That “cooperative engagement capability” is crucial to the Navy’s vision of a future fleet that acts as a single network, each part sharing the data gathered by the whole. This is a concept that then-think-tanker Robert Work — later Deputy Secretary of the Navy and now Deputy Secretary of Defense — promulgated in 2008 as the Total Force Battle Network. It’s the bedrock of the program called NIFC-CA (Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air), which will link Navy ships, fighters, and E-2D Hawkeye radar planes [& other air assets such as F-35s] into a single network. Instead of each ship or plane only being able to fire on threats it can see with its own sensors — which may be at the last minute or even too late, given how low and fast some cruise missiles move — the fleet as a whole can engage incoming enemies as soon as anyone sees them...."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/10/you- ... -together/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 25 Oct 2014, 03:54
by popcorn
Good to kick the tires on old Betsy and fire up the engine to make sure it works... mundane stuff like the article notes. Some years back AEGIS BMD did something similar ie. Launching-on-remote to take down a ballistic missile threat. Looking forward to when F-35 joins the party though I note no plans currently on CEC certification. Still, as the eyes and ears of the fleet expanding coverage well beyond what even E-2D provides, hard to imagine otherwise.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2014, 01:53
by meatshield
meatshield wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Someone was at the 'West2014' briefing (see video in past thread pages for more info) or even watched the video to report on it. I'll extract only the LCDR Burks quote about launching weapons from anywhere by the F-35. NavAvers like headwinds for landing BTW - called WOD - not too much and not too little - the ideal is just right. :mrgreen:

Navy F-35C Prepares for Ship Trials, Faces Headwinds 17 Feb 2014 Sandra I. Erwin
"...“We are only half way through the initial development plan,” says Navy Lt. Cmdr. Michael Burks, a test pilot with 150 hours in the cockpit of the F-35C and B....

...The priorities for the Navy’s F-35C are to finish software development and to fix glitches in the helmet-mounted displays, Burks says during a recent industry conference in San Diego. Then the Navy will have to decide how to incorporate the F-35C into an already crowded air wing. [crowded? I thought there was 'too few' aircraft on board these days?]

“There will be some challenges integrating the F-35 on the carrier. Most have been identified,” he says. A carrier air wing typically has anywhere from 44 to 54 fighter jets. The Navy expects that for the foreseeable future, most of the fighters in the air wing will be Super Hornets, and that the F-35C will have a niche role as an airborne intelligence nerve center.

The F-35C will be predominantly an “information collector and distributor in the air wing,” says Burks. As the Navy’s only “stealth” aircraft that can fly undetected by radar, it will be prepared to “go alone into highly contested areas,” he adds. But most of the time it will serve as the hub of a “network centric” air wing.

“It may not matter what weapon we have on board,” Burks says. F-35 pilots will pass information over the network that would allow other aircraft to engage targets. “I may pull the trigger in the cockpit but the weapon may come from a different platform,” he explains...."
&
"...The officer in charge of the F-35, Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, says in a 60 Minutes interview that the price tag of at least $115 billion per aircraft is too high, but the Pentagon intends to stick with the plan. “I don’t see any scenario where we’re walking back away from this program.” [SPRINT! Don't WALK!] :doh:

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... a2&ID=1415


That's an excellent interview, saw it today as "f35 Roundtable" on YouTube. The quote from the Lockheed test pilot that they need a longer ranged missile for the f35 was interesting. Also the navy test pilot Burks sounds positively bullish on the c variant and what it will bring to the carrier operations. His description of the auto approach function of the f35 and how it will cut training time and fixing the tail hook problems was brilliant.


Looks like commander Burks was on the money when discribing f35's ability to find the deck! And he wasn't just a mouth piece for a company like some people suggested....

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2014, 14:45
by XanderCrews
meatshield wrote:Looks like commander Burks was on the money when discribing f35's ability to find the deck! And he wasn't just a mouth piece for a company like some people suggested....


Of all the disgusting insults that have been heaved at this program, trying to throw the military personnel under the bus has probably been the most infuriating.

Its also probably the biggest "break" in terms of the great JSF internet debate. People may not trust the corporations building the JSF, or the Governments that selected it, but when you start throwing military people, including combat pilots, and others who have decades of experience including real shooting wars under the bus as paid shills you may have "gone around the bend" a tad. If you can't trust the Military who have the most real world experience, and would suffer the most for a bad platform, who can you trust?

(its a trick question the answer is the guy on the internet telling you not to believe them of course) :roll:

I have noticed that big "blind spot" for JSF detractors is not mentioning the military and their opinions, they would rather it be the the uniformed public vs a nebulous lockheed martin.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2014, 17:22
by popcorn
XanderCrews wrote: If you can't trust the Military who have the most real world experience, and would suffer the most for a bad platform, who can you trust?

Apparently, McCain, Ayotte and company.. :roll:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2014, 21:10
by neurotech
popcorn wrote:
XanderCrews wrote: If you can't trust the Military who have the most real world experience, and would suffer the most for a bad platform, who can you trust?

Apparently, McCain, Ayotte and company.. :roll:

I can't figure out Sen. McCain's position on procurement, especially strike fighters.

Some people would argue that having upgraded, capable, A-4Ks sitting in storage for a decade is a "national disgrace" too. The avionics in the Draken A-4Ks would be a dream compared to what Navy A-4 pilots flew with, a lesson then Lcdr. McCain learned the hard way. Having an ECM capability to disrupt a SAM radar lock... why would a strike fighter need that?

The reality is that developing and building jet fighters is an expensive business. I remember running the numbers on the various choices (F-35A vs F-16V+, F-35C vs F/A-18ASH) and the cost saving just isn't there to justify not proceeding with a 5th gen F-35 fleet. Does everyone know how much a EA-18G with mission avionics and 2 ALQ-99s costs? I doubt its much cheaper than a F-35C (in FRP).

Both the F-35C and the EA-18G have different and complementary roles in the fleet, but calling the F-35 "national disgrace" on cost grounds is misguided at best.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2014, 05:12
by Corsair1963
neurotech wrote:
popcorn wrote:
XanderCrews wrote: If you can't trust the Military who have the most real world experience, and would suffer the most for a bad platform, who can you trust?

Apparently, McCain, Ayotte and company.. :roll:

I can't figure out Sen. McCain's position on procurement, especially strike fighters.

Some people would argue that having upgraded, capable, A-4Ks sitting in storage for a decade is a "national disgrace" too. The avionics in the Draken A-4Ks would be a dream compared to what Navy A-4 pilots flew with, a lesson then Lcdr. McCain learned the hard way. Having an ECM capability to disrupt a SAM radar lock... why would a strike fighter need that?

The reality is that developing and building jet fighters is an expensive business. I remember running the numbers on the various choices (F-35A vs F-16V+, F-35C vs F/A-18ASH) and the cost saving just isn't there to justify not proceeding with a 5th gen F-35 fleet. Does everyone know how much a EA-18G with mission avionics and 2 ALQ-99s costs? I doubt its much cheaper than a F-35C (in FRP).

Both the F-35C and the EA-18G have different and complementary roles in the fleet, but calling the F-35 "national disgrace" on cost grounds is misguided at best.


Sen. John McCain is 100% politician and if you think of him that way. Then his actions make a great deal of sense! :wink:

So, he will complain at the top of his lungs. Yet, in the end he will support the JSF Program. (i.e. F-35) He just wants the appearance that his action have improved the process and in doing so he will receive a good deal of credit for it's turn around. Regardless, if his action really had a major impact at all. :doh:

Remember, McCain has wanted to be the Chairman of the Senate Arms Service Committee for sometime and in some ways even more so than the US Presidency. Now with the Republicans winning control of the Senate. He will get his wish....

I've meet the dear Senator on a number of occasions. He is not a bad man..........he is just a politician! :?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2014, 10:30
by spazsinbad
Navy to share latest in virtual aviation training at key industry trade show
20 Nov 2014 AIR-1.0 Public Affairs

"...Capt. Craig Dorrans, program manager for PMA-205, will share how Live, Virtual, Constructive (LVC) training, has become a game changer for naval aviation....

...An LVC scenario would work like this: A live F/A-18 aircraft flies a strike mission using a training range. The aircrew has communications and is interoperable with E-2D aircraft simulators via the Navy Continuous Training Environment, a system that connects geographically dispersed simulators and systems with geographically separated forces and offers training on-demand. Using simulators, the aircrews are providing battle management support. Computer-generated enemy aircraft are being uploaded to the systems of both the live and simulated aircraft. The two platforms must work together to overtake the “adversaries” and complete the mission scenario.

Like the Navy, the Marine Corps has also invested in LVC. The service’s Aviation Distributed Virtual Training Environment (ADVTE) links virtual aircrew training systems and constructive players through Network Exercise Control Centers located at 2nd and 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, Marine Aviation Training System Sites.

“ADVTE allows geographically dispersed Marines the capability to link together for training and mission rehearsals,” said Col. David Owen, PMA-205 Marine Corps training systems lead. “As with other simulation, ADVTE provides the opportunity for considerable savings. Since trainers can be linked during training, ADVTE can be viewed as a cost-savings multiplier.”

The Navy is already introducing elements of LVC today and will continue to add capability and increase fidelity in formal LVC training events through 2020...."

CAPTION: "An E-2C Tactical Operational Flight Trainer, similar to this one was used to simulate the cross-platform warfighting capability known as Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air, or NIFC-CA. The exercise, conducted at E-2 Systems Test and Evaluation Laboratory at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md., was the first time Airborne Command and Control Squadron (VAW) 125 aircrews participated in NIFC-CA training. (U.S. Navy photo)"
PIC: http://www.navair.navy.mil/img/uploads/Trainer_1.jpg


Source: http://www.navair.navy.mil/index.cfm?fu ... ry&id=5778

Flight Ready: Live Virtual Constructive
Published on Nov 17, 2014 NAVAIRSYSCOM[

"It's virtually changing training and helping warfighters conduct missions anytime, anywhere, with anyone around the world. Learn how the Live Virtual Constructive environment saves time, money and increases mission readiness across the fleet."


Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Jan 2015, 00:00
by spazsinbad
Getting NIFCAKA with it - TOPdome - straight from... SWOs....
Navy to Build Aegis Trainers for Surface Warfare Officers at ‘TOPGUN’
19 Jan 2015 Sam LaGrone

"U.S. Navy’s surface warfare officers will learn to track and target air threats in a planned Aegis combat system simulator that will be built Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center at Naval Air Station Fallon, Nev., the head of the Navy’s new surface warfare training outfit told USNI News last week.

“TOPGUN has a facility and we’re going to add a piece to it and surface officers are going to Fallon to train,” said Rear Adm. James Kilby, the new commander of the Naval Surface Warfighting Development Center. “It’ll be within the next two years, we’re looking to do that.”

In addition to the fighter weapons school — TOPGUN — Fallon is also home to the E-2 Hawkeye and E-2D Advanced Hawkeye training school — TOPDOME.

“We’re going to take warfare commander to Fallon to integrate and train with the E-2D [Advanced Hawkeye] squadrons and fighters,” he said. “That’s going to be their capstone graduation exercise before they move on to sea and they’re going to do it again and again and again until they’re really good at it.”

The Navy is in the process of creating tighter combat information networks that will allow aircraft and ships to share targeting information for threats in a plan known as Naval Integrated Fire Control – Counter Air (NIFC-CA)...."

Source: http://news.usni.org/2015/01/19/navy-bu ... ers-topgun

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Jan 2015, 06:21
by spazsinbad
:mrgreen: OMG! - Subs in UnderTheCounterNetWorks? Why - because they ain't no stealthy no more. SHADES of the F-35s eh! :devil: :doh:
Transparent Sea: The Unstealthy Future Of Submarines
22 Jan 2015 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"...the oceans are getting more transparent. [I blame Global Warming :doh: ] :mrgreen:

New detection technologies from low-frequency sonar to flashing LEDs [QUE? The disco era is back?] — plus the big data computing power to enhance the faint signals they pick up — are making submarines much easier to detect. The same water-penetrating wavelengths, however, will also make it much easier for submarines to communicate with each other.

The net result should be radically new tactics, Bryan Clark, a career submariner and former top aide to the Chief of Naval Operations, says in a new study for the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments out today. Instead of submarines operating alone and unafraid, he writes, they could operate together in underwater networks. Manned submarines would lurk out of missile range, 200 nautical miles from hostile shores, and serve as motherships for unmanned mini-subs and even aerial drones that push ahead into enemy “anti-access/area denial” defenses.

This networked force — a new wolf pack?... [LUV IT! :devil: Fanks SLDinfo and Gen. Hostage]

...Overall, the new methods for detecting submarines are “analogous to what is being pursued in the electromagnetic spectrum against stealthy and other aircraft,” Clark told me. In both air and water, he said, “the advantage provided by stealth will continue to diminish.”

That doesn’t mean submarines or F-35 fighters become irrelevant, however, because platforms without stealth features will fare far worse. Stealth will become the price of entry into the warzone, he explained, instead of a ticket to penetrate undetected into enemy defenses.

As a result, Clark said, we need to start combining stand-off and stealth: Keep the manned stealth platform at a distance — where it’s harder to detect and has more time to evade attack — and send in unmanned, relatively expendable, but also stealthy platforms to do the close-in tactical work. Larger drones and unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) would deploy on their own from surface ships, while smaller systems could be launched from the submarines themselves.

Coordinating all this would be an underwater communications network. “The same technological advancements that improve undersea sensors will also improve undersea communications,” Clark said. High-frequency sound waves, lasers, or LEDs could all provide high-bandwidth datalinks underwater — albeit at shorter ranges than radio waves in air — especially with enough computing power at the receiving end to sort signal from noise. Undersea cables or relays deployed on the sea floor could extend the network all the way back to US bases on land.

This kind of connectivity could be a culture shock for submarines, who traditionally go off for months where they don’t talk with anyone, including higher command. The surface fleet has long struggled with issues of independence, initiative, and micromanagement that could now extend underwater as well. Moving towards an underwater network will hardly be easy. With Clark’s work getting personal attention from senior admirals, however, his latest proposal is likely to be taken seriously."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/01/tran ... ubmarines/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2015, 04:02
by popcorn
Nice potential fit with the Navy's "Distributed Lethality" doctrine... ESG minus CSG support employing F-35Bs to extend the reach of Surface Warfare assets.



Navy to Integrate F-35 With Beyond-the-Horizon Technology



The Navy and Lockheed Martin are planning to demonstrate a beyond-the-horizon anti-ship missile detection and defense technology using an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

The system, referred to as Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air, or NIFC-CA, uses Aegis radar, an airborne sensor and SM-6 missile to find, track and destroy approaching threats such as cruise missiles at ranges well beyond the typical radar horizon, Navy officials said.

Alongside Aegis radar and an SM-6 missile, NIFC-CA uses an E-2D Hawkeye aircraft as an airborne sensor to help relay threat information to the ship from beyond its normal radar range.

Lockheed is working closely with Naval Sea Systems Command, or NAVSEA, to plan a NIFC-CA demonstration at White Sands Missile Range, N.M., sometime this year or next year, a Lockheed executive said.

“We are looking at alternative airborne sensors,” the executive said.

The idea with a demonstration, sources indicate, would be to use the F-35 as an airborne relay node or sensor in place of the E-2D Hawkeye. This could allow NIFC-CA to operate against an increasingly complex set of targets such as stealthy targets, the Lockheed executive explained.


 http://defensetech.org/2015/01/22/navy-to-integrate-f-35-with-beyond-the-horizon-technology/#ixzz3Phh2A51F 

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2015, 04:26
by spazsinbad
Yeah and did you see the concept that EVERY USN SHIP should have a GUN! - OK weapon - GO TEAM.

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/01/grow ... face-navy/
&
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/01/if-i ... lethality/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2015, 06:26
by popcorn
So long as they're railguns...

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2015, 06:33
by spazsinbad
:devil: :doh: Doan Forget Dem LAZers (not lazy aircrew). :mrgreen:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 03:07
by spazsinbad
Is this effort part of NIFC-CA? How much better will the F-35B/C be at this game?
WEST: Bob Work Calls Navy’s Anti-Surface Tomahawk Test ‘Game Changing’
10 Feb 2015 Sam LaGrone

"SAN DIEGO, CALIF. — The Pentagon’s number two civilian praised a January test of Raytheon Tomahawk missile that successfully struck a moving maritime target calling it a “game changing capability.”

Deputy Secretary of Defense Bob Work used the test of the Block IV Tomahawk as an example of quickly adapting existing technology in new ways of an example of the defense innovation in line with the pursuit of the Pentagon’s Third Offset Strategy....

...“It’s a 1000 mile anti-ship cruise missile,” he said. “It can be used by practically by our entire surface and submarine fleet.”

In the test, a Block IV fired from USS Kidd (DDG-100) struck a moving maritime target while being guided by a F/A-18 Super Hornet that issued instructions to the missile mid-flight.

The Tomahawk test is also in line with U.S. surface forces new, “distributed lethality” concept to put more offensive power on U.S. surface ships...."

Source: http://news.usni.org/2015/02/10/west-bo ... e-changing

Video: Tomahawk Strike Missile Punches Hole Through Moving Maritime Target
09 Feb 2015 Sam LaGrone

"A January test of a Raytheon Tomahawk land attack missile (TLAM) against a moving target at sea could be a short-term answer to the U.S. Navy’s long-range anti-surface missile problem, USNI News understands.

The test – conducted off of San Nicolas Island, Calif. – demonstrated that a TLAM launched from a ship could be guided into a moving target at sea by a Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

An unclassified video of the test, obtained by USNI News, shows the missile launch from guided missile destroyer USS Kidd (DDG-100), fly for an unspecified amount of time and punch a hole through a shipping container on a moving ship target and skip across the ocean...

...“It demonstrates the viability of long-range communications for position updates of moving targets,” Capt. Joe Mauser, Tomahawk Weapons System (PMA-280) program manager for Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) said in a Feb. 5 Navy statement. “This success further demonstrates the existing capability of Tomahawk as a netted weapon, and in doing so, extends its reach beyond fixed and re-locatable points to moving targets.”

If the Navy can perfect the methodology, it would give the service an almost 1,000 nautical mile extension – the range of the TLAM — of its lethal anti-surface radius for its newer guided missile destroyers, which are not fitted with the service’s aging RGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile.

The Tomahawk Block IV – unlike earlier versions of the missile – has the ability to adjust its flight path based on new information given to the missile allowing it to hit moving targets....

...However, the service may have to include a new seeker on the Block-IV to make it effective and its unclear what other information, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) assets could guide the missile to its final target.

Still, the Block IV could be a quick fix to the Navy’s ASM gap before new capabilities like the Long Range Anti-Ship Missile (LARSM) come online."

Source: http://news.usni.org/2015/02/09/video-t ... ime-target


Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 03:28
by KamenRiderBlade
That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eyes.

What a wonderful use of existing missile technology.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 04:03
by spazsinbad
I was worried about dem pidgeons - thankful they were OK. Here comes the BOOM - ready or not. How do ya like 'em now.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 04:08
by neptune
KamenRiderBlade wrote:That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eyes.

What a wonderful use of existing missile technology.



.....curses' they missed the pigeons...argh!! :devil:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 04:31
by KamenRiderBlade
neptune wrote:
KamenRiderBlade wrote:That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eyes.

What a wonderful use of existing missile technology.



.....curses' they missed the pigeons...argh!! :devil:


That is one expensive pigeon swatter.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 04:42
by spazsinbad
LRASM is on the boil also - watch out bunnies:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=2402

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 05:16
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:LRASM is on the boil also - watch out bunnies:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=2402

Two very different tests highlighting different stages in each missile's development as manufacturers gird for the next big missile contract. Tomahawk playing catchup and it's sensor/autonomous targeting capabilities are under development and have yet to be demonstrated. OTOH, Tomahawk has a lot of existing infrastructure/support within the Navy and it‘s 1000-mile range far exceeds LRASM's.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 07:08
by johnwill
neptune wrote:
KamenRiderBlade wrote:That was beautiful, brought a tear to my eyes.

What a wonderful use of existing missile technology.



.....curses' they missed the pigeons...argh!! :devil:



Did you notice the pigeons started to fly before the arrival of the Tomahawk? Was it the noise or the view of the missile that scared them?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 07:59
by lookieloo
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:LRASM is on the boil also - watch out bunnies:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=2402

Two very different tests highlighting different stages in each missile's development as manufacturers gird for the next big missile contract. Tomahawk playing catchup and it's sensor/autonomous targeting capabilities are under development and have yet to be demonstrated. OTOH, Tomahawk has a lot of existing infrastructure/support within the Navy and it‘s 1000-mile range far exceeds LRASM's.
I'll have both thank you...
Image

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 08:59
by popcorn
lookieloo wrote:
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:LRASM is on the boil also - watch out bunnies:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=2402

Two very different tests highlighting different stages in each missile's development as manufacturers gird for the next big missile contract. Tomahawk playing catchup and it's sensor/autonomous targeting capabilities are under development and have yet to be demonstrated. OTOH, Tomahawk has a lot of existing infrastructure/support within the Navy and it‘s 1000-mile range far exceeds LRASM's.
I'll have both thank you...
Image

Both merit close scrutiny... :wink:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 10:03
by mk82
lookieloo wrote:
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:LRASM is on the boil also - watch out bunnies:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=2402

Two very different tests highlighting different stages in each missile's development as manufacturers gird for the next big missile contract. Tomahawk playing catchup and it's sensor/autonomous targeting capabilities are under development and have yet to be demonstrated. OTOH, Tomahawk has a lot of existing infrastructure/support within the Navy and it‘s 1000-mile range far exceeds LRASM's.
I'll have both thank you...
Image


Yes, yes indeed :devil:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 10:46
by beepa
The funny lumps at the front must be the upgraded DAS we have heard about.. :roll:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 12:13
by sferrin
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:LRASM is on the boil also - watch out bunnies:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=2402

Two very different tests highlighting different stages in each missile's development as manufacturers gird for the next big missile contract. Tomahawk playing catchup and it's sensor/autonomous targeting capabilities are under development and have yet to be demonstrated. OTOH, Tomahawk has a lot of existing infrastructure/support within the Navy and it‘s 1000-mile range far exceeds LRASM's.


There's plenty of room in a VLS cell for an airframe stretch with LRASM/JASSM (though I've not heard of them looking at it). JASSM ER has a 620 mile range, which isn't too shabby. Considering its much greater survivability vs Tomahawk it's pretty much a no-brainer.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 12:44
by popcorn
sferrin wrote:
popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:LRASM is on the boil also - watch out bunnies:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=2402

Two very different tests highlighting different stages in each missile's development as manufacturers gird for the next big missile contract. Tomahawk playing catchup and it's sensor/autonomous targeting capabilities are under development and have yet to be demonstrated. OTOH, Tomahawk has a lot of existing infrastructure/support within the Navy and it‘s 1000-mile range far exceeds LRASM's.


There's plenty of room in a VLS cell for an airframe stretch with LRASM/JASSM (though I've not heard of them looking at it). JASSM ER has a 620 mile range, which isn't too shabby. Considering its much greater survivability vs Tomahawk it's pretty much a no-brainer.

LRASM range is around half of JASSM-ER based on account citing LM VP of Missiles Division and LM program Manager. The LRASM sensor/electronics displace fuel, cutting range. I actually expect the Tomahawk range to drop as well once Raytheon plugs in their new electronics kit as well but it should still enjoy a significant range advantage over the competition.
AFAIK LM has successfully tested LRASM on Mk41 VLS.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 14:31
by bring_it_on
From what is known, the DARPA program that led to the LRASM was seeking something around 250nm range for a weapon that could maneuver its way around threats and do all the stuff depicted in the lockheed martin video of the weapon. From what I gather, the missile is much ahead of that requirement even in challenging profiles. The advantage of the LRASM is that the JASSM is pretty much the stealthiest missile in its class in the world, while the Tomahawk is neither fast, nor stealthy.

Lockheed spent its own money to test it for VLS launch. Raytheon has also been toying with the idea of a supersonic Tomahawk missile for some time. Although the current Tomahawk used in the role would be good from a flexibility purpose, it is not stealthy and given the ever increasing size of the missile load of chinese ships it would be wiser to either have a stealthy missile that can challenge the air defenses, or have something that is fast to reduce the reaction times. Furthermore, DARPA spent time and money developing the unique seeker and the threat libraries that ultimately make the LRASM what it is. It would be foolish to only use it for a 100 or so special needs missiles. I still think the Kongsberg/Raytheon JSM, and the LRASM are better weapons for the program although if the Tomohawk capability can be maintained its a good addition given that you could launch it from submarines as well.


Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Feb 2015, 16:43
by SpudmanWP
lookieloo wrote:
popcorn wrote:I'll have both thank you...
Image

Both merit close scrutiny... :wink:

mk82 wrote:Yes, yes indeed :devil:

beepa wrote:The funny lumps at the front must be the upgraded DAS we have heard about.. :roll:


This calls for a hands-on evaluation :drool:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2015, 00:46
by popcorn
I agree LRASM benefits from a lot of joint DARPA/LM work and Raytheon has a lot of catching up to do. AFAIK DARPA does program management but LM does all the tech work and this remains proprietary. Impressive stuff.
Anyway, we'll learn more as the competition unfolds, including the range issue. From the article Spaz referenced http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=1953

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2015, 03:32
by spazsinbad
Here's sumpin' - to get youse hearts a pumpin' (nice 'catch o'the day - page 3 girl over page):
US Navy, Raytheon demonstrate moving target capability for Tomahawk Block IV
11 Feb 2015 PRN Raytheon

"Back-to-back tests validate missile modernization path

CHINA LAKE, Calif., Feb. 11, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- The U.S. Navy and Raytheon Company conducted two successful flight tests on Jan. 27 and 29. The first flight test demonstrated a Tomahawk cruise missile which was synthetically guided to hit a Mobile Ship Target (MST). The second flight test demonstrated a reduced mission planning time in a realistic "call for fire" scenario.

A synthetically guided Tomahawk cruise missile successfully hits a moving maritime target Jan. 27 after being launched from USS Kidd (DDG 100) near San Nicolas Island in California. The missile altered its course toward the target after receiving position updates from surveillance aircraft.

"The combat-proven Tomahawk is unmatched in its capability," said Mike Jarrett, Raytheon Air Warfare Systems vice president. "Raytheon and the U.S. Navy are working together to enhance Tomahawk and provide the warfighter with even more options in the battlespace."...

...In the second test, the USS Kidd (DDG 100) launched another Tomahawk Block IV missile on a "call-for-fire" mission in support of shore-based Marines staged on San Nicolas Island.

Using GPS navigational updates, the missile performed a vertical dive to impact on San Nicolas Island, scoring a direct hit on the target designated by the Marines. The test provided valuable data for the Marine Expeditionary Force to evaluate and evolve their call for fire capability...."

Source: http://raytheon.mediaroom.com/2015-02-1 ... k-Block-IV

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2015, 05:13
by madrat
It certainly is another leap in capability after the programming on the fly tricks. Next thing you know they'll be launching chaff and flares on the attack run to thwart interception.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2015, 22:07
by bumtish
Royal Navy & RAF: F-35B Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Same tactics as USN envisage and USN focus on developing stand-off munitions?

Integrating Typhoon and F-35: The Key to Future British Air Power

...........

Instead, new tactics are being developed to best use the F-35’s formidable strengths. Given its stealth, electronic warfare capabilities and unparalleled sensor suite, the F-35 could perform excellently as an ‘information sponge’ at medium altitude, providing awareness of ground- and air-based threats to the larger Typhoon force in contested air environments and co-ordinating, for example, the suppression of enemy air-defence networks from a position of relative invulnerability. In effect, a handful of F-35s could provide the RAF with ISTAR and situational awareness capabilities within defended airspace where traditional surveillance platforms such as E-3 AWACS and E-8 Joint-STARS would be unable to operate. The F-35B STOVL variant which will enter British frontline service around 2020 is somewhat handicapped in terms of striking power in a high-threat air environment (where its stealth would be necessary) by its modest internal weapons capacity. With two bombs of 1000 lbs or less, along with two AMRAAM air-to-air missiles and no internal gun, the F-35B in stealth configuration has limited combat persistence.

The Typhoon force, by operating at very high altitudes or with standoff munitions such as the Storm Shadow missile, could allow the RAF to fully use the potential of both aircraft. F-35s could find and designate priority targets within defended airspace for the Typhoon force to attack from a relatively safe distance with their greater ordnance capacity. If the airspace in question were too dangerous for Typhoon to enter, the F-35 could be used to provide precision ISTAR and targeting for cruise missiles, as well as delivering its own precision strikes against high-threat air defence assets, thereby providing a window for the Typhoon force to deliver the main strike weight. In other words, the F-35 force should allow British airpower to perform a ‘day one’ suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) against a near-peer opponent in extremis, if properly co-ordinated with the more numerous and heavily armed, but non-stealthy Typhoons.

In summary, the F-35 represents a significant ISTAR, SEAD and survivable strike capability boost for British combat airpower. However, for now Britain must also sustain investment in the combat-ready and numerically larger Typhoon force which will still be required to do the bulk of the work during air operations in the coming decade, and which is more suited to the air-superiority role except in the extreme case of a confrontation with a peer opponent operating Russian or Chinese fifth-generation fighters and air defence systems.


https://www.rusi.org/publications/defen ... N0TGS6guNo

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2015, 00:29
by spazsinbad
'popcorn' was onto that back in the day (last year):
F-35B and Typhoon integration
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=26238&p=278322&hilit=Typhoon#p278322

With a follow on look from 'popcorn' to: http://defensetech.org/2010/12/31/j-20- ... rspective/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2015, 09:29
by bumtish
I expected that this would be the case, so I did the search on F-16.net before posting. This was unsuccessful, obviously.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2015, 10:24
by popcorn
No doubt the Brits will explore interoperability options of F-35B with other naval and air assets. AFAIK though RN went it's own way and and will not be CEC-compatible with USN so it won't benefit from US JSF integration work.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2015, 10:46
by spazsinbad
'bumtish' I feel your pain (yep - even over the intertrubles). One reason why it would be excellent for posters of articles to include not only the URL (if known) but all the other identifying features such as: author date etc. This info makes finding articles via a search very easy - often - but not always.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 13:18
by popcorn
This is interesting, LM is developing a sub-launched LRASM variant, matching Tomahawk.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... sile-12302

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2015, 17:01
by Obi_Offiah
spazsinbad wrote:I was worried about dem pidgeons - thankful they were OK. Here comes the BOOM - ready or not. How do ya like 'em now.

Looked like a classic anti-missile last ditch manoeuvre to me. The number one pigeon pulls an orthogonal roll around the missile, trouble is the execution was far too late. Luckily this was just a training mission, but they'll both need to study the tapes religiously back at the nest.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2015, 02:22
by spazsinbad
Heheh 'OBI' those pidgeons had a lot on their plate. I well remember a wedgetail eagle viewed in front high from a distance, realise that the MACCHI approaching was not prey to then roll into a ball of feathers in an attempt to stop their attack on said aircraft. Thankfully it was OK and funny as all get out to observe (I used to have good eyesight at low level).

Meanwhile I'm pleased that the notion that the camera aircraft following the anti moving ship missile was not the one providing target updates (as some seem to think on other forums). Details details....
USN officials upbeat about new uses for Tomahawk missile
27 Feb 2015 Dan Parsons

"US Navy officials say new uses for existing munitions, as demonstrated with two recent novel deployments of the Raytheon BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missile, should be sought as cost effective alternatives to expensive and time consuming development programmes.

Raytheon and the navy recently demonstrated that a Tomahawk block 4 could receive target updates midflight from an observer aircraft, allowing it to home in on moving targets.

In a January 27 live-fire test, a Tomahawk was launched from the destroyer USS Kidd on a pre-planned mission. A surveillance aircraft then sent real-time targeting information to the joint network enabled weapons mission management capability located in Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, California. That facility then relayed the information to the missile, guiding it to strike a mobile ship target.

Targeting information was relayed using the missile’s existing UHF satellite communications datalink, a Raytheon spokesperson says. Initial reports indicated [I saw it as the observer/camera aircraft but just a guess] the surveillance aircraft was an F/A-18 Hornet.

“The targeting asset was not the Hornet, but actually a separate US Navy targeting aircraft operating at a significant range from the moving ship target using radar,” Raytheon says. “One of the key achievements of this test was demonstrating how rapidly this targeting information could be sent to the missile for a dynamic moving target.”

During 26 February testimony before the US House Appropriations Committee subcommittee on defence, Chief of Naval Operations Adm Jonathan Greenert says the demonstration was an example of how increased capability can be found in existing platforms.

“What’s cool about it is we have the weapon now, not in 2018,” Greenert says. “With a couple of changes to a datalink we already have, with a missile we already have, sensors we already have, just get them all talking on the same link and now you have that capability.”

The cost of firing a Tomahawk missile to strike moving target versus launching a manned aircraft mission is “a few million versus tens and tens of millions,” Greenert adds.

The test did not evaluate an enemy’s ability to jam the datalink signal between the aircraft, the fire control center and the missile, according to the Raytheon spokesperson.

During another test on 29 January, the USS Kidd launched another Tomahawk in support of Marines ashore in what amounts to a demonstration of the missile as sea-based artillery.

Using GPS navigational updates, the missile performed a vertical dive to impact on San Nicolas Island, scoring a direct hit on the target designated by the Marines, Raytheon says.

Though the test was successful, Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen Joseph Dunford said cruise missiles likely would not be a practical replacement for artillery or close air support.

“I can see where that Tomahawk missile would be helpful for a high-end operational target or a strategic target, but probably not the most effective weapons system for a tactical target or close air support,” Dunford says in his 26 February testimony
."

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-409566/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2015, 02:46
by popcorn
Thanks for the additional info Spaz. I must admit I thought it was the babysitting Hornet that provided the targeting and thought "so what?".. having another platform do the job from a "significant" distance using radar and datalinking to the Tomahawk via satellite is a bit more impressive and potentially useful.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2015, 23:44
by eskodas
New SLD piece, interview with Jim Gigliotti, LM Navy Program Manager.

We want to be able to determine when we could employ weapons and actually expand our own force engagement envelopes both in terms of time and distance while decreasing an adversary’s ability or opportunity to engage.

The more time I have to react, the less time he has to react, the advantage accrues to me. I do that with again, speed, stealth, and data movement.

The more I can distribute the faster I can move that data the more I can build the situational awareness (SA) the more advantage I have to employ my weapons.

It chains like that, that’s how I view it.

We’ve conducted distributed ops for a long time, but with airplanes like E2D coming online the F35 moving that data we will be able to operate at a different level of capability.

Question: The F-35C and the E2D will help the Navy to extend the reach of the carrier from a defensive point of view, but it unlocks enhanced strike capabilities as well.

How do you view this process?

Gigliotti: In Desert Storm, the USAF leadership rightly complained complained that USN strike aircraft spent an inordinate amount of time defending the carrier as opposed to providing ramped up sortie generation rates against Iraqi targets.

Of course, that is why the Army puts Patriots around U.S. bases and the USAF dedicates airplanes in a CAP role as well.

What the E2D and the F-35C, working alongside F/A-18s and EA-18Gs, do is to unlock more offensive capabilities from the strike force.

The F-35 was developed to operate unsupported in high-threat environments and is therefore designed with the inherent capability to gather, process and disseminate a significant amount of data by itself or by working in conjunction with other F-35s.

It can also work closely with other air wing and joint assets, and this is where the true value of the aircraft comes in.

It is an information sump.

The F-35 collects a lot of information across multiple spectrums in order to provide the pilot a fused picture of the battlespace.

While the intended use is for the aircraft itself, certain pieces of information can be shared with and amongst other F-35s and even the amongst the strike group.

If that information can be properly shared among the rest of the strike group and air wing, the F-35 helps make the entire strike group more effective and the the strike, in turn, does the same for the F-35.

By expanding the SA available for fleet defense, the numbers of assets which can be devoted to strike operations can be enhanced. Of course, it is scenario dependent, but you’re going to have more flexibility to be able to proportion forces for offensive operations in the future.

The F35 is unequivocally going to make the carrier strike group as a whole, not just the aviation side, better.

http://www.sldinfo.com/the-coming-of-th ... m-manager/


More at the source.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2015, 14:26
by bring_it_on

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2015, 02:08
by spazsinbad
Bringing the ships & aircraft together - to deceive - to win.
Navy Forges Ahead With New Surface Ship Electronic Warfare: SEWIP
20 Mar 2015 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"NAVY YARD: American warships are about to get much harder to kill. Armed with new electronic warfare systems, the US Navy “is taking back the spectrum,” Capt. Doug Small says....

...The Navy’s invested heavily in inter-ship networks to coordinate missile fire, but when it comes to electronic warfare, each ship is largely on its own. Even with SEWIP, a ship has to detect enemy radars with its own onboard sensors and defeat them with its own jammers. What EW information ships want to share has to go over the same networks as everything else.

“Link-16’s oversubscribed,” said Clark. “You don’t have enough bandwidth on these datalinks to use them for electronic warfare as well as all the things they’re doing already.”

But with the right software, Clark said, an electronically scanned array designed for jamming could provide wireless communications as well. It could even do both at the same time with different parts of the array. Combined with INTOP, SEWIP could provide the bandwidth necessary to coordinate electronic warfare across the fleet, not just defend an individual ship. This would allow a kind of “networked electronic warfare,” he said, where multiple ships, manned aircraft, and drones all combine their EW efforts to deceive not just a single radar but the entire enemy force.

“I would want to have multiple jammers and deception systems coming at them [at once],” painting a consistent but false portrait of the war zone, Clark said, “so the picture they’re seeing from all of their radars is incorrect.” The Air Force and intelligence community call this spoofing.

“All warfare is based on deception,” Sun Tzu once wrote. If you could pull off this kind of theater-wide electronic scam — and that’s a big “if” — you wouldn’t just protect individual warships: You could win a war."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/03/navy ... are-sewip/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2015, 04:02
by spazsinbad
Navy and Air Force Planning Joint Exploration of Next Generation Fighter Follow Ons to F-22 and F/A-18E/F
27 Mar 2015 Sam LaGrone

"The Navy and the Air Force could team up for their early look into their next crop of fighters due out in 2030, the Navy’s director of air warfare told USNI News on Thursday....

...“So what we would look at is everything — from an airframe, to a family of systems, to continuing something we already have flying, to capabilities that we already have in the air wing or the joint world — to assess what we really need to replace the Super Hornet,” Manazir said.

The AoA will run in parallel with several other design and technology efforts across several agencies.

“We’re advancing engine technology. We’re working with academia, industry, other services — the weapons labs in the services to advance that technology. We’re also advancing technology in outer mold lines for airframes for faster air speeds from traditional airframes — trying to make them go faster for the fight. Obviously broadband stealth and IR stealth, the capabilities we could put into coatings, ways you could use electromagnetic energy, ways that you could dominate the EM spectrum a little better,” Manazir said.

“All of those things are so vexing now, we’re advancing the technology to the point where we get into the development phase and evaluating alternatives — those technologies the hardest are advanced to a point to where we can start to use them.”

While a plethora of options exist for the program, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jonathan Greenert expressed an outlook for a next generation fighter that would not be as dependent on stealth and speed but more on its ability to field future weapon systems.

“It has to have an ability to carry a payload such that it can deploy a spectrum of weapons. It has to be able to acquire access probably by suppressing enemy air defenses, Greenert said in February. “Today it’s radar but it might be something more in the future.”

Part of the F/A-XX calculus will be based on how the Lockheed Martin F-35C Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) will function in the Navy’s carrier air wings.

The F-35C is understood to be a critical node in the Navy’s Naval Integrated Fire Control Counter Air (NIFC-CA) concept as a forward sensor node for the rest of the carrier strike group (CSG).


“We don’t even quite know what the F-35 is going to bring to us — that fifth generation capability — and when we start to integrate it with the other things we have in the air wing — the Growler, with E-2D, with Super Hornet — that integrated capability is greater than just what the platform can do,” Manazir said.

“It might be that we find things in the F-35 that will lend itself to the generation after that.”

Source: http://news.usni.org/2015/03/27/navy-an ... -and-fa-18

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2015, 08:40
by spazsinbad
Some NetWorkCentricity for ye from ye olde Round Table WEST 2014 Kanights thereof speaking about what the F-35B/C will do initially NETTED with the other assets in the USN/USMC TODAY. Only Sound with stills of the wooden speakers. And anotherie repeated elsewhere today for 'munny' quote reference but again below from youse know where above.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2015, 22:39
by spazsinbad
AUVSI: NAVAIR focuses on sensor and autonomous capabilities
06 May 2015 Beth Stevenson

"The recently-appointed lead for the US Naval Air System Command’s unmanned aviation branch has prioritised sensor capability and controlled autonomy as his two main concerns for the future.

Rear Adm Mark Darrah, program executive officer for Unmanned Aviation and Strike Weapons, says the navy is driving towards an “every platform is a sensor” approach, all of which have to be part of a larger, networked system.

“We are ensuring that we focus more on the payload and the sensor capability than the platform itself,” Darrah says. “We’re very driven to network all of these sensors to generate common pictures and the ability to generate effects from the information.”

Darrah assumed the post in October 2014 and says his priority is to make sure that the required information can be collected from a sensor positioned at the correct point, a mission suited to unmanned aircraft because of their endurance.

“The other part that is a challenge that I need to think through is the autonomy piece,” Darrah says. “Deterministic autonomy – what I mean by that, is we are building envelopes for the systems to operate in. This is informing the system on how it should behave, and then it has choices between that range of instructions.”..."

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... es-412027/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2015, 20:38
by spazsinbad
Navy Develops Semi-Autonomous Air-Launched Missile for F/A-18
15 May 2015 Kris Osborn

"The Navy is working on a deal with Lockheed Martin to integrate its new, semi-autonomously guided Long Range Anti-Ship Missile onto an F/A-18 Super Hornet aircraft, giving the fighter an increased ability to identify and strike targets at longer ranges from the air, service and Lockheed officials explained.

In development since with the Navy and the Pentagon’s research arm, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, the so-called LRASM weapon is being developed as a long-range air, surface and submarine-launched missile able to track and destroy targets semi-autonomously.

Not much detail about its seeker technology, range or guidance systems is publically available – as much of the program is secret. However, Lockheed officials have said the weapon has an unclassified range of 200 nautical miles, a distance which is likely to be well short of its actual range.

Also, LRASM does use a semi-autonomous guidance technology designed to allow the weapon to avoid obstacles in the air while in flight, Lockheed officials explained.

The Navy plans to have LRASM operational on F/A-18s by 2019; the Navy, Air Force DARPA and Lockheed have conducted at least three demonstrations of the LRASM thus far....

...The weapon has some similar characteristics to an existing air-launched weapon called the Joint Air-to-Surface-Standoff Missile, or JASSM. This similarity will likely help make production of LRASM easier because some of the dimensions are comparable to JASSM.

Eventually, the LRASM will likely fire from surface ships such as destroyers, submarines and aircraft such as F-15s, F-35 joint strike fighters and other platforms, Mourad explained."

Source: http://defensetech.org/2015/05/15/navy- ... for-fa-18/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2015, 23:32
by popcorn

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2015, 06:28
by spazsinbad
Is this a potential LO Lo Orbit Relay for MADL? http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ne-415842/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2015, 06:53
by popcorn
Definitely not your father's U-2 if built. LO and very high altitude operation would contribute to survivability ala RQ-180.
Already the current incarnation is being used as a modular testbed for all manner of tech to support the Combat Cloud concept..
Witness the recent LRASM test with F-22 transmitting target coordinates via U-2 to a ground station. And U-2 acting as a relay between F-22 and F-18s.
Great that LM is willing to invest it's own money.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2015, 07:37
by spazsinbad
Another story about possible U-2 replacement: http://aviationweek.com/defense/skunk-w ... eplacement

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2015, 01:41
by popcorn
Tomahawk continues to demonstrate it's versatility in a networked environment. A major advantage of a 2-way data link.


http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases ... 54203.html
US Navy, Raytheon demonstrate network-enabled Tomahawk cruise missiles in flight
SAN NICOLAS ISLAND, Calif., Oct. 5, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- A Tomahawk Block IV cruise missile successfully showed it can take a reconnaissance photo and follow orders to re-target in mid-flight during a test conducted by the U.S. Navy and Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN).

During the test, a missile launched from the guided missile destroyer USS Gridley (DDG 101) used its onboard camera to capture battle damage indication imagery and then transmitted the image to fleet headquarters via its two-way UHF SATCOM datalink. The missile then entered a loiter pattern to await further instructions.

Meanwhile, strike controllers at the U.S. Fifth Fleet headquarters in Bahrain retargeted the missile to a new aim point on the Navy's range at San Nicolas Island, off the coast of southern California. The missile performed a vertical dive and struck the designated target.

"We have once again proven the flexibility and utility of the Tomahawk Block IV missile, which has an unprecedented record of reliability and combat success." said Dave Adams, Raytheon Tomahawk senior program director.

The test was designed to show that the missile's strike controllers, located at multiple fleet headquarters, can control and redirect multiple missiles simultaneously. To reduce testing costs, only one of the large salvo of missiles was a live launch. The rest were flown via computer simulation through various missions directed by forward deployed strike controllers.

"Tomahawk continues to be the weapon of choice for combatant commanders requiring very long range, precision strike, with the flexibility to loiter and re-direct after launch," said Adams. "No other weapon has this capability."

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 03:40
by popcorn
Nope.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... mcat-14063

Does the U.S. Navy Need a 21st Century F-14 Tomcat?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 03:56
by spazsinbad
Get yur bombcat pdf here: download/file.php?id=21889 (PDF 9Mb) And a quote from the 'popcorn' URL above:
quote from authors of referenced report: "...“As an interim measure, the Navy and Air Force should significantly accelerate the F-35C’s Block 5 upgrade to enable the aircraft to carry six AIM-120 missiles internally.”..."

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 03:11
by spazsinbad
I guess the USN will benefit with this development as well as USMC, USAF, RAAF and all the rest?
Advanced Airborne Networking Capabilities Sought for Hostile Environments
14 Oct 2015 DARPA

"Modern airborne warfare is becoming increasingly complex, with manned and unmanned systems having to rapidly share information in a volatile environment where adversaries use advanced, commercially available electronic systems to disrupt U.S. and allied communications. Complicating the communications challenge for allied warfighters, many current airborne radio networks are incompatible with each other, the result of security and radio frequency (RF) format differences between aircraft types. Specialized data-link gateways facilitate communication across network divides, but these gateways have limited capability and don’t allow high-data-rate information to flow freely and seamlessly among multiple types of manned and unmanned aircraft.

With an eye toward overcoming this increasingly critical challenge, DARPA today published the Broad Agency Announcement solicitation for its Dynamic Network Adaptation for Mission Optimization (DyNAMO) program. DyNAMO seeks novel technologies that would enable independently designed networks to share information and adapt to sporadic jamming and mission-critical dynamic network bursts in contested RF environments. The program seeks technology that can interconnect existing static networks and be able to connect future adaptive networks as well. The solicitation is available here: http://go.usa.gov/3JGgR.

“Current airborne networks are not designed to handle the complexities of modern distributed and dynamic combat missions, and the challenge is only going to increase in the years ahead,” said Wayne Phoel, DARPA program manager. “DyNAMO’s goal is to enable pilots in one type of aircraft with a specific suite of sensors to easily share information with different types of manned and unmanned systems and also receive sensor information from those various platforms for a comprehensive view of the battlespace. We aim to develop technology that dynamically adapts networks to enable instantaneous free-flow of information among all airborne systems, at the appropriate security level and in the face of active jamming by an adversary.”

The network technology developed through the DyNAMO program is to be demonstrated on radio hardware being developed by DARPA’s Communications in Contested Environments (C2E) program. C2E is designing flexible new development architectures so aircraft won’t be limited to communicating with aircraft using the same radio and waveform. C2E also aims to leverage the proven commercial smart-phone architectural model in which the application processing, real-time processing, and hardware functions of a software-defined radio are separately managed, validated, and updated to ensure rapid deployment of capabilities. DyNAMO is designed to pick up where C2E leaves off, ensuring that raw RF data successfully communicated between previously incompatible airborne systems is not only conveyed but also translated into information that all the systems can understand and process, whether that information relates to time-sensitive collaborative targeting, imagery or networked weapons."

Graphic: http://www.darpa.mil/DDM_Gallery/DyNAMO ... 19x316.png

Source: http://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2015-10-14

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 15:42
by sdkf251
About the acronym Dynamo,

One of the great things I like about the defense industry or the military in general is how they come up with acronyms. :D
I wonder if there is a department that thinks up of acronyms. :D (TOW, Hummer, ARM, HARM, HEAT, BUFF, SLUFF, ...)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 15:55
by spazsinbad
:mrgreen: Magic Carpet is my fave. I've even forgotten what it means but that is not unusual at my age when it is irrelevant.... :devil: The Maritime Augmented Guidance with Integrated Controls for Carrier Approach and Recovery Precision Enabling Technologies

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 22:41
by Dragon029
I do hope that whoever came up with that acronym was promoted.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2015, 01:22
by spazsinbad
It is sad indeed that SLDinfo has contempt for their online readers such that 'moving text up and down' is considered OK. This is a long post/article and the moving text vertically begins early. I'm exhausted trying to follow the sentences - moving up and down - let alone understand the content. How hard is it for SLDinfo to crop/resize their often mundane JPGs - VERTICALLY - so that the text does not move UP and DOWN during the interminable slideshows of whogivesarats...

Anyway go here for RADM MANAZIR - my hero :mrgreen:
The Sea Services Prepare to Prevail in the Extended Battlespace: An Interview with Rear Admiral Manazir
07 Dec 2015 Robbin Laird & Ed Timperlake

LONG ARTICLE - VERY MOVING - BEST READ AT Source.

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/the-sea-services ... l-manazir/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 09 Dec 2015, 04:26
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote::mrgreen: Magic Carpet is my fave. I've even forgotten what it means but that is not unusual at my age when it is irrelevant.... :devil: The Maritime Augmented Guidance with Integrated Controls for Carrier Approach and Recovery Precision Enabling Technologies


..not having been party to many of these but...no doubt this took many rounds/ pints at the club/ pub..... :D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2016, 02:11
by popcorn
Deleted

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2016, 01:58
by spazsinbad
Navy Set to Deploy New Lethal Anti-Surface ‘Tactical Cloud’ Later this Year [best read all at source]
17 May 2016 Sam LaGrone & Megan Eckstein

"...NAVAIR’s Darrah walked through an anti-surface scenario with information shared via the tactical cloud in which military space assets – known as National Technical Means — share data with aircraft like F/A-18s fighters, E-2D sensor aircraft and the unmanned MQ-4C Triton. In the scenario data was combined with surface ship information from a Littoral Combat Ship and an attack submarine that also feed into the tactical cloud.

“The important part is that the nodes are able to move in and out of this kill web over the time we’re prosecuting this threat,” Darrah said. “What you got now is a thread that’s been run through a multitude of sensors. The important piece of these is they are nodes within domains. I can replace an F-18 with a Harpoon with a JSF and another weapon [in the future]. That’s the important piece. This is about [being] role based. Role-based means I don’t care what the platform is, what I care about is the sensor that generates the information.”

The anti-surface scheme is similar to the carrier strike group Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) concept in which aircraft and ships in the strike group share their targeting information on aircraft and cruise missile threats via high-capacity data links to other ships and aircraft that might be out of sensor but not weapons range of a target. For example, an E-2D could provide targeting information on an enemy fighter to an Arleigh Burke guided missile destroyer that is unable to see the threat with its own radar.

“Using tactical data links is absolutely fine in this architecture, and that’s what we’ve used to go off and sink surface ships in another version of NIFC-CA,” Hill said on Tuesday...."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2016/05/17/navy-s ... -this-year

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2016, 20:36
by spazsinbad
Manazir: Networked Systems Are The Future Of 5th-Generation Warfare, Training
18 May 2016 Megan Eckstein

"NATIONAL HARBOR, Md. – Success in a future operating environment will depend on networking – sharing data among sensors and weapons, weaving together the various domains, and bringing in manned and unmanned systems into the same decision loop – the Navy’s deputy chief of naval operations for warfare systems (OPNAV N9) said Tuesday at the Navy League’s Sea-Air-Space Exposition 2016.

Rear Adm. Mike Manazir said during a panel discussion that creating these networks would be the key to success in “fifth-generation” warfare. As the Navy buys and operates planes, ships, missiles and more, the collective capability of the networked architecture will be more important than the individual systems’ specifications – an instance of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts, according the admiral.

“It has to be networks and capabilities – not just the platforms –we’re fielding,” he said. “So I focus on capabilities, not platforms – I don’t as much care about, I need this many [Joint Strike Fighters] or this many Super Hornets or this many Littoral Combat Ships or this many DDG Fight IIs; it’s, what are we going to do to connect those platforms, and then ultimately get back to the platforms that we buy.”...

...The Navy’s more mature network architecture, Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA), links together sensors, shooters and sharers to target enemy missiles and air threats – which move at high rates of speed and therefore require highly accurate targeting tracks to engage the threat. Surface threats – ships – move much slower, and therefore a greater number of Navy sensors could generate good enough data to inform the new so-called All-Domain Offensive Surface Warfare Capability and help target enemy warships....

...The Navy’s more mature network architecture, Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA), links together sensors, shooters and sharers to target enemy missiles and air threats – which move at high rates of speed and therefore require highly accurate targeting tracks to engage the threat. Surface threats – ships – move much slower, and therefore a greater number of Navy sensors could generate good enough data to inform the new so-called All-Domain Offensive Surface Warfare Capability and help target enemy warships....

...Also in the presentation, Manazir talked about integrating human and machine to speed up the OODA loop of observing, orienting, deciding and acting. He said that many people think about unmanned systems as being useful only for dull, dirty and dangerous tasks, but he envisions pairing unmanned systems with people to react to a situation faster and smarter than the enemy can.

“When I think about unmanned, about man-machine teaming, what if we could have a machine do the OO part of the OODA loop? The machine at machine-speed could orient … that machine gives you [situational awareness] … so if the machine is doing OO then the man is doing the DA part,” Manazir said.

He also spoke of integrating live, virtual and constructive training opportunities – in training events that include sailors in planes and in simulators and computer-controlled actors – to allow collaborative training between personnel in different locations, as well as to train to high-end warfare skills that could not be replicated without the aid of virtual reality."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2016/05/18/manazi ... e-training

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2016, 23:20
by spazsinbad
Navy Sees Future Combat Power in Information Networks [BEST READ AT SOURCE]
July 2016 Jon Harper

"Concerned about the growing capabilities of potential adversaries, the Navy and Marine Corps see platform networking, automation and multi-mission payloads as ways to stay ahead of emerging threats. But more technology development and adoption will be required before the vision can be fully realized.

With a limited amount of platforms and dollars at their disposal, the sea services are looking to create “kill webs” — networks of sensors, data links and weapons that would give U.S. forces a more powerful punch, defense officials said at a recent industry conference hosted by the Navy League.

The Navy’s aviation component is focused on the idea of “integrated warfare” to project power over and from the sea, said Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter. “At the heart of this concept are the F-35, P-8 and other air assets that are critical nodes, which capture and disseminate information in an unprecedented manner, ultimately improving lethality across the battlespace.”

Hopes for greater platform linkages are not limited to air assets. The Navy wants to throw ships and submarines into the mix. “What if I start to draw lines between the sensors, the weapons and the shooters in those different domains?” said Rear Adm. Michael Manazir, the new deputy chief of naval operations for warfare systems.

“If we can connect those nodes, now you have a resilient kill web that we can use to target different entities, ... share data across advanced networks” and improve information quality, he said.

The Marine Corps also wants in on the action. The service aims to make “every one of our platforms a sensor, a sharer and a shooter,” said Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, deputy commandant for aviation.

Rear Adm. Jon Hill, program executive officer for integrated warfare systems, said the Navy is “sensor poor” right now but is looking for new capabilities in this area to foster better situational awareness across the battlespace....

...Much of the Navy uses the Link-16 tactical data-sharing network, but it has “limitations,” Manazir noted. The service needs to develop a new waveform and take greater advantage of computing technology, he said.

Industry also needs to take responsibility for ensuring that greater networking will be viable, Davis said. “Make sure that the gear that you sell us plugs and plays with everybody else’s gear. It does us no good if you have a standalone system out there that’s not interoperable with everything else.”...

...More sophisticated big data management tools will be required for that type of mission and others, officials noted.

“The way that we analyze data now I think is kind of a 20th century mindset,” said Lt. Gen. Michael Dana, Marine Corps deputy commandant for installations and logistics. “Instead of having human beings doing mountains of data crunching, you [should] create some type of algorithm or a computer that actually analyzes.”

He noted the advances in computing and artificial intelligence that are emerging from tech hubs like Silicon Valley and Boston. “Some of the things that they’re coming up with are truly revolutionary, and I think we benefit by kind of tapping into some of the things the private sector is doing.”

The Pentagon needs “Siri on steroids,” he said....

...But Flynn sounded a note of caution about becoming overly reliant on networked warfighting in an age of cyber attacks, electronic warfare and unanticipated technical glitches.

“What happens when … the network goes down?” he said. “Are you going to have the capabilities on the individual ships or platforms or units to be able to defend themselves and to be able to continue to operate? That’s the larger debate in this because you can field a lot of expensive capabilities but you’re not going to have capacity.”"

Source: http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/ ... works.aspx

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 00:32
by KamenRiderBlade
If the Pentagon wants Siri on steroids, that's fine, but please give it a better name than Siri.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 01:39
by spazsinbad

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 01:57
by count_to_10
KamenRiderBlade wrote:If the Pentagon wants Siri on steroids, that's fine, but please give it a better name than Siri.

Steroids? Lame.

Weaponized Siri is where it's at.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 03:44
by blindpilot
count_to_10 wrote:
KamenRiderBlade wrote:If the Pentagon wants Siri on steroids, that's fine, but please give it a better name than Siri.

Steroids? Lame.

Weaponized Siri is where it's at.


Siri: Turn left there is traffic ahead.

You: Screw That! Siri arm torpedoes! Full steam ahead!

:shock: :shock: :devil:
BP

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2016, 06:27
by brucealrighty
KamenRiderBlade wrote:
"If the Pentagon wants Siri on steroids, that's fine, but please give it a better name than Siri."

Make it capable of OOD (of the OODA loop) and call it Sir!!!

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2016, 23:57
by spazsinbad
BEST to read this article at source for the complications and need for NavAir & NavSea to cooperate (which they're doing).
Navy Expanding NIFC-CA To Include Anti-Surface Weapons, F-35 Sensors
22 Jun 2016 Megan Eckstein

"Navy engineers are working to bring new aircraft sensors and new weapons into the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) architecture, with near-term goals of bringing in the F-35’s radio frequency (RF) sensor and the anti-surface variant of the Standard Missile-6....

...Patel [major program manager for future combat systems in the Program Executive Office for Integrated Warfare Systems] said NAVSEA and NAVAIR have been in talks for about two months on how to work together....

...Patel said the Navy is also expanding NIFC-CA by introducing more sensors, specifically the F-35. NIFC-CA today primarily relies on the E-2D, which are limited in number. The F-35 will be fielded in great numbers by countries around the world, so the Navy is eager to prove out the NIFC-CA/F-35 combo.

The Navy will conduct a live-fire test in September at White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, where an F-35 will detect an over-the-horizon threat with its RF sensor and send data back to the USS Desert Ship (LLS-1) land-based ship simulator, which will then launch an SM-6 to intercept the threat.

“It’s no different than E-2D,” Patel said – except that the sensor will be new to NIFC-CA, as will the Mid Air Data Link (MADL) that was developed for F-35s to communicate with one another. The test will assess the Navy’s ability to take unrelated technologies and successfully close the fire control loop.

Patel added that the F-35 brings significant capability to the fleet, but his office is only funded to look at the RF sensor for now. Many of its other sensors could be integrated into NIFC-CA if additional funds were appropriated."

Graphic: https://i0.wp.com/news.usni.org/wp-cont ... .39-PM.png "An image from a PEO IWS PowerPoint presentation."


Source: https://news.usni.org/2016/06/22/nifcca-expands-sm6-f35

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2016, 01:31
by spazsinbad
US Fleet Forces Will Focus Training, Fleet Experimentation on Distributed Operations
24 Jun 2016 Megan Eckstein

"U.S. Fleet Forces Command will push its fleet experimentation and training towards a new distributed operations concept, in which deployed forces – surface ships, submarines, aircraft and more – are sufficiently linked together so that they can support theater-wide needs regardless of their physical location, the commander said today.

USFF Commander Adm. Phil Davidson said the Navy can no longer conduct disaggregated operations, in which distinct groups of ships train for and conduct missions in a silo. Instead, those forces within a geographical combatant command must be synchronized and netted together to support whatever the numbered fleet commander may need, he said at an event co-hosted by the Center for Strategic and International Studies and the U.S. Naval Institute.

Davidson cited three concepts that support his idea of distributed operations. First, he said, the surface force’s recent push towards distributed lethality has yielded positive results that could be applied throughout the rest of the fleet.

“When we have a more lethal force, more widely distributed … our commanders are much more confident,” he said.
“And when we game it with potential … adversaries, our adversaries are much more conservative. That’s a wonderful place to be.”

Second, the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air architecture of netting together sensors and shooters has proven successful, and “as we think about other assets coming to this structure … it is very very important to understand that people need to be contributing to this network. And if it can’t come to this network, its value is going to be a little less.” He highlighted an upcoming test to integrate the F-35 into the NIFC-CA construct as an example of how the fleet should be thinking.

And third, he said, the Navy’s ability to maneuver in physical space and the electromagnetic spectrum will remain important in countering near-peer and peer adversaries that seek to deny the U.S. sea control...."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2016/06/24/20355

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2017, 06:34
by spazsinbad
Will the F-35C be the Eyes and Ears of the Fleet & ARMY?! OMG. A few years off; however they need to talk to each other.
Link Army, Navy Missile Defense Nets: Adm. Harris
21 Feb 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"SAN DIEGO: The Army and Navy must link their missile defense systems into a single network so Navy weapons can hit targets spotted by Army radars and vice versa, the chief of Pacific Command said today. That’s a daunting technical task but, if surmounted, it could dramatically improve defense against North Korean, Chinese, or Russian missile salvos.

“I believe that Army missileers should incorporate their air defense systems into the Navy’s integrated fire control – counter-air, or NIFC-CA, architecture,” Adm. Harry Harris told the AFCEA West convention here....

...The Navy is further along, having already developed what Harris calls the “unbelievably powerful” NIFC-CA. That system lets high-flying, far-seeing aerial sensors like the E-2 Hawkeye or, in future, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter pass targeting data back to destroyers and cruisers. That lets surface ships shoot down incoming missiles before their own mast-mounted sensors could spot them. But NIFC-CA is specifically designed to communicate over a Navy network called CEC (Cooperative Engagement Capability), which then feeds data to the Aegis fire control system on Navy ships. Connecting NIFC-CA to the not-yet-complete Army IBCS network will be a very different challenge.

“These two systems ought to be talking to each other,” Harris said. “I’ll be the first to tell you that I’m not a technical guy, so I don’t know how to make it work…How they do it, that’s my challenge to my components, to Adm. Swift (Adm. Scott Swift, commander of Pacific Fleet) and to Gen. Brown (Gen. Robert Brown, commander of US Army Pacific).”...

...Harris is equally excited about other applications of computer networks to warfare, particularly robotics. At the Super Bowl, “300 quad copters put on light show as an opening act for Lady Gaga — who was terrific by the way,” Harris told AFCEA. “What interests me in these examples is not the drones per se, or even Lady Gaga, for that matter. What interests me is the network that allows a hundred drones or more to fly in formation, to receive new orders, and to report back. That, said there’s a dark side(:) As soon as we figure out how to do this, someone else will try to hack into it.”..."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2017/02/link ... dm-harris/



Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2017, 07:52
by marauder2048
“I believe that Army missileers should incorporate their air defense systems into the Navy’s integrated fire control – counter-air, or NIFC-CA, architecture,” Adm. Harry Harris told the AFCEA West convention here....

...The Navy is further along, having already developed what Harris calls the “unbelievably powerful” NIFC-CA.


The Army's JLENS was part of NIFC-CA!
In fact, the Army and Navy conducted a joint test where the FCR JLENS orbit cued an SM-6 via CEC
all the way to terminal seeker handover.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2017, 05:17
by spazsinbad
NIFC-CA Advances Could Allow The Navy To Use Cheaper ‘Dumb’ Weapons [BEST READ AT SOURCE]
22 Feb 2017 Megan Eckstein

"SAN DIEGO, Calif. – An expanded fire control network could help the Navy leverage lower-cost “dumb” weapons instead of sophisticated missiles that can help find their own targets, several officials said today.

The Navy Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) architecture is currently changing itself – as engineers find ways to bring in new airplanes, new data links and new weapons to work with the Aegis Combat System – but at a certain point a strong enough NIFC-CA network could allow the Navy to begin changing what weapons it buys, they said during a panel presentation at the WEST 2017 conference.

Though there are many challenges associated with integrated new systems into NIFC-CA, director for integration and interoperability at the warfare integration directorate (OPNAV N9I) Cmdr. David Snee said that if the ability to see over the horizon and share information quickly and accurately were to be achieved, “then I have a world where I could have a very sophisticated high-tech weapon, or not.”...

...Still, he [Program Executive Office for Integrated Warfare Systems (PEO IWS) principal assistant program manager for Aegis development Cmdr. Andrew Thomson] said, if the Navy could expand NIFC-CA to be long-range enough and reliable enough, it could keep the “smarts” in the aircraft and ships in the network and save money on the actual munitions.

During the panel discussion, PEO IWS major program manager for future combat systems Anant Patel said the Navy had had success integrating the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, F-35B Joint Strike Fighter and the Army’s Joint Land Attack Cruise Missile Defense Elevated Netted Sensor System (JLENS) into NIFC-CA and that PEO IWS would look to integrate the F-35C, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler in the future.

As NIFC-CA inevitably grows and evolves, Snee said the Navy wants to see it grow in a way that supports fighting in other domains.

“The last part of NIFC-CA is counter air, so it’s very limited in that domain,” he said. “I think back in the [Pentagon] we’re broadening that aperture to look at naval integrated fires in all the domains. And so kind of addressing the problem from that aspect is what we’re doing going forward. This is the first chapter of [NIFC-CA]. … One of the things we’re really tackling back in D.C. is really to come up with an integration campaign plan for the Navy of how we’re going to stitch this together” and use the NIFC-CA concept to eventually go after surface or subsurface threats, for example."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2017/02/22/nifc-c ... mb-weapons

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2017, 22:15
by spazsinbad
We CAN Tie Army, Navy Missile Defense Networks: Navy Experts [BEST READ IT ALL AT SOURCE I RECKON]
24 Feb 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"...On Tuesday, the chief of US Pacific Command had told the AFCEA-USNI West 2017 conference here that he wanted the two services’ systems to interconnect. “I believe that Army missileers should incorporate their air defense systems into the Navy’s integrated fire control – counter-air, or NIFC-CA, architecture,” Adm. Harry Harris said. “I’ll be the first to tell you that I’m not a technical guy, so I don’t know how to make it work.”

We can make it work, the expert panel said the next day when asked about Harris’s idea. “It’s not hard,” said Anant Patel, a senior program manager in the Navy’s Program Executive Office – Integrated Warfare Systems (PEO-IEWS). “We’ve cracked the nut on how to integrate systems together, we understand what quality of service we need to engage a specific threat, so I think that’s the easy part to go work on with Army.”

The hard part, Patel continued, is “connectivity(:) That’s a tough, tough question because it all depends on the latencies and accuracies of the networks, so you have to look at a specific threat, what kind of reaction time do you have (and therefore what kind of network lag you can afford). It’s not as easy as, I’ll just give you the data.”

Missile defense requires exquisitely accurate data on the target, because you’re trying to hit one missile moving at hundreds of miles an hour with another missile moving at hundreds of missiles an hour. A tiny error can mean a miss. The worst mass casualty incident in the 1991 Gulf War, a Scud strike on a Dhahran barracks that killed 28 Americans and wounded another 98, occurred because a software glitch made a Patriot missile’s timing 0.3433 seconds off.

So before you add a new sensor to your missile defense system, you need to know how accurate that sensor’s data is and how quickly your network will transmit that data from sensor to weapon. Accurate data that’s delayed by a slow connection is as bad as inaccurate data that arrives at once. Adding more sensors of different types and from different locations gives you more perspectives on your target and can improve accuracy, but you’d better understand those sensors first.

That takes testing, said Cmdr. Andrew Thomson, who also works for PEO-IWS. “That takes time to really take that sensor to sea or wherever it is and understand it, make sure that it’s delivering the quality of service that you need, what the latencies are and what the accuracies are in the networks you’re using, and then what the weapon system is going to be able to do with that,” Thomson said. “Every time when you bring in a new sensor or you bring in a new weapon or sensor, you’ve got to kind of work through flow.”

“I don’t think we’re going to get to a place where we’re quite plug and play,” Thomson said. “It’s always going to take that engineering.”NIFC-CA has already made some progress with the Army. In a 2012 test, the Army’s now notorious blimp-mounted JLENS — “a great radar,” said Patel — provided targeting data via NIFC-CA to a Navy SM-6 Standard missile. In another test, the Aegis destroyer Hopper connected to Army AN/TPY-2 radars — normally used for THAAD missile defense batteries — and shared track data back and forth, said Capt. David Snee, then commander of the Hopper but now director of integration and interoperability on the Navy staff (OPNAV N9I). The Hopper’s success, in turn, built on close Army-Navy cooperation during THAAD’s development to ensure it would be interoperable with Aegis, said retired Rear Adm. Brad Hicks, now with Lockheed Martin....

...In the longer run, NIFC-CA could even evolve beyond the “counter-air” focus embodied in its name and become an offensive fire control network, not just a defensive one. The Navy and the Pentagon’s Strategic Capabilities Office have worked together to modify the SM-6 version of the Standard Missile, a high-performance interceptor designed to shoot down incoming missiles and planes, and make it capable of striking surface ships as well. The targeting data for the successful test was relayed via NIFC-CA network, which didn’t require any modifications to do that mission, Patel said.

If NIFC-CA can similarly bring in other surface-to-surface missiles, like the Army’s ATACMS, it might evolve into an all-purpose, all-service system of fire control that can either shoot down enemy missiles in flight or blow them up preemptively on the launcher."
'
Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2017/02/we-c ... y-experts/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2017, 09:40
by spazsinbad
The Arrival of the F-35C for the Carrier Fleet [Best read all the one sentence paragraphs at the jump]
27 Feb 2017 SLDinfo

"...The F-35s coming to the fleet will add significantly to this process. It is about rapid combat learning in a dynamic warfighting environment. We are shaping the foundation for “learning airplanes” to engage the enemy.

LVC will enable us to train in a more robust environment than we are on our current ranges that are geographically constrained, and currently do not have the full high end threat replicated. LVC will allow us to train to the full capabilities of our platforms across a variety of security environments and do so without exposing our training process to an interested adversary.

Question: What you are talking about is shaping real time combat forensics against an active and dynamic threat?
Rear Admiral Manazir: That is a great way to put it. And this capability is crucial going forward.

We’re back into a scenario where lots of threats around the world require us to react to enemy learning. Then, when they act in accordance to our reaction, we react again and so on. The enemy morphs to do X. We have to react and we now do Y.

What is not widely realized is that the evolving air wing on the carrier and on the large deck amphibious ships, is being shaped for a dynamic learning process. The F-35s will play a key role in this evolving process, but we are already underway with this process as you mentioned with regard to Fallon.

With regard to the air war, where it’s either air-to-ground missions or air-to-air missions, we can share that information and bring in more people into the discussion with our long-range information and communication systems....

...There is a constant effort to enhance the ability to get intel to the warfighter so he can act on it.

Question: What you are describing is the fighter wing as sortieing of information, and not only weapons?
Rear Admiral Manazir: That is a good way to put it.

We are doing what Bayesian theory talks about, namely we are providing more and more information to get closer to the truth in targeting or combat situation. One can reduce that fog of war by increased understanding of what actual truth is, you’re going to have better effects.

This is why the technology that the F-35 brings to the fight is so crucial. You have decision-makers in the cockpit managing all of this information. With Block 3F software in the airplane, we will have data fusion where you transform data information to knowledge enabling greater wisdom about the combat situation.

The processing machines in the F-35 provide enough of the fusion so that the pilot can now add his piece to the effort. This enables the ships to enhance their ability to operate in the networks and to engage with the air fleet in dynamic targeting at much greater distance. It is about reach not range for the honeycomb enabled expeditionary strike group. The F-35 is a key enabler of this shift, but it is part of an overall effort to operate in the expanded battlespace....

...Across the force we carefully manage aircraft utilization, and I would rather not expend precious 5th generation fatigue life doing missions that can be performed by other, 3rd or 4th generation platforms.

This is why CNO said we will supplement Lighting II with a healthy cadre of Super Hornets. This “high-low” mix is essential to sustainable, cost effective, combat lethality now and in the future.

Also, the requirement for our pilots to execute high-end missions that only F-35C can do, as well as those missions it could potentially do, would quickly make the training syllabus and the hours required to be current and proficient in all mission areas, unexecutable. Therefore, we will focus and tailor F-35C training where its design and capabilities add most value to our integrated carrier air wing. The Navy is in a unique position to do just that, and we plan to keep that advantage and capitalize on the synergy of our 5th generation Lightning IIs and 4th generation Super Hornets.

In other discussions with flight line leadership in Lemoore, I assured them that recovering readiness in our Super Hornet fleet, sustaining it through mid-life upgrades and smartly modernizing it, will ensure that fleet remains the lethal, warfighting partner to the remarkable F-35C platforms that just arrived. And as the home for our new F-35C fleet as well as our west coast Super Hornets, we need to ensure NAS Lemoore continues to grow in capacity and services to support both our warfighters and their families, well in to the future...." [This last section will be repeated elsewhere erewhon]
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=52254&p=363659&hilit=utilization#p363659

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/the-arrival-of-t ... ier-fleet/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2017, 03:43
by spazsinbad
USAF playing catchup? "Everyones a winner baby dats de truth - dats de truth." C2 to beat all C2 and throw in SPACE!
C2 Will Be the Edge
03 Mar 2017 John A. Tirpak

"​Command and control is “what will keep us ahead” as China, Russia, and other potential adversaries catch up in aerospace technology and imitate the US Air Force, Air Combat Command chief Gen. Hawk Carlisle asserted at AWS17 Thursday. The key to prevailing in future conflicts will be knowing the situation “faster, better” than an opponent, and the ability to continually assess and act inside his ability to do so. The Air Force’s Combined Air Operations Centers are the envy of the world, Carlisle said, but USAF is working to make them better, and is dedicating itself to making sure every platform feeds the “combat cloud.” In the future, “everything in the battlespace has to be an information collector and disseminator,” Carlisle said. The F-22 will be a key to that effort, although USAF hasn’t “figured out … yet” how to pass that what it collects to the rest of the force automatically, due to its stealthy communications technology.

Carlisle said C2 is really the key when USAF may not have numerical superiority, and its technology will not be generations ahead of any competitor. Observing that the US had a monopoly on stealth when the F-117 was introduced, Carlisle noted, “we’ll never have an advantage like that again.” The technology pushes, he said, will be in “autonomy and semi-autonomy” of both platforms and the means to interpret what they collect, as well as “manned and unmanned teaming” and “machine-to-machine” communications and collaboration. Unable to be specific due to secrecy, Carlisle promised “we’re truly on the edge of some big moves” in all these areas, and in connecting “all the disparate parts” of the combat enterprise.

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... -Edge.aspx

Space is the DNA of Fusion
03 Mar 2017 Wilson Brissett

"​Air Force Space Command boss Gen. Jay Raymond called space "the DNA of fusion," noting space is a part of everything the US military does today. Speaking at AWS17 Thursday, Raymond said Space Command has worked hard “to integrate those space and now cyber capabilities into the fight,” but the Air Force now needs to address the threat posed by adversaries who are “actively developing capabilities” to thwart the US in space. “We must be able to protect and defend” our space assets, Raymond said. To do so, AFSPC is working on a “concept of operations with the National Reconnaissance Office” for the defense of space. That concept of operations sets two goals: ensuring “the ability to command and control” in space and developing better “situational awareness” of all space assets, both US and foreign. In taking intermediate steps toward achieving these goals, Raymond said, AFSPC has “overhauled our training programs” and is working on “developing tactics, techniques, and procedures” for an operational space environment.​"

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... usion.aspx

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2017, 03:56
by spazsinbad
Don't need to let the USMC feel left out of the network TRON goodness - so here 'tis.
Visiting the Prowler: USMC Electronic Warfare Capabilities in Transition
22 Mar 2017 Todd Miller

"...By 2020, the USMC will have adopted a revolutionary change in how they address electronic warfare. Rather than replace the Prowler with a dedicated platform, the USMC has adopted a distributed strategy, where “every platform is a sensor, shooter and sharer.” This new paradigm brings together both electronic warfare and cyber capability with the Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF) in a structure called the (MAGTF EW).

USMC Captain Sarah Burns explains, “Under MAGTF EW the Marine Corps is leveraging emerging technologies and integrating multiple aviation platforms [unmanned, fixed-wing, tilt-rotor, and rotary-wing assets]; payloads; ground-based EW nodes; and cyber capabilities to provide commanders with an organic and persistent EW capability – for every MAGTF – large and small…”

Within the MAGTF EW each USMC aviation platform will have the capability to carry its own pods packed with sensors / jammer payloads (such as the Intrepid Tiger II).

2nd Lt. Samuel Stephenson indicates:
“This integration of manned and unmanned airborne and ground EW capabilities will provide the MAGTF commander with greater flexibility and control of the electromagnetic spectrum and, in many cases, giving the commander a capability where previously they had none.

“MAGTF EW assets will be modular, scalable and networked, utilizing an open architecture that is rapidly adaptable and remotely re-programmable at the tactical level to support future Marine Corps warfighting requirements.”


The US Navy EA-18G Growler will continue the Prowlers dedicated EW mission. The USMC F-35B & C (replacing the AV-8B, F/A-18A-D and EA-6B) will provide the tactical aviation requirements of the USMC while offering a very robust EW capability. Combined, the two aircraft (EA-18G & F-35B/C) will bring immense EW capability to the Joint Force.

As Stephenson indicates, “These aircraft, combined with the assets available in the MAGTF EW, will ensure the Marine Corps will be able to quickly innovate and adapt to the changing EW mission set and the battlefield of tomorrow.”..."

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/visiting-the-pro ... ransition/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2017, 06:04
by neptune
[quote="spazsinbad"]Don't need to let the USMC feel left out of the network TRON goodness - so here 'tis. [quote] .....

The US Navy EA-18G Growler will continue the Prowlers dedicated EW mission. The USMC F-35B & C (replacing the AV-8B, F/A-18A-D and EA-6B) will provide the tactical aviation requirements of the USMC while offering a very robust EW capability. Combined, the two aircraft (EA-18G & F-35B/C) will bring immense EW capability to the Joint Force....quote]

...not to create an argument but to simply ask a question.....do CVNs and Amphibs swim together..ever??

..if not, then the Harriers (LHA/ LHD), not being allowed near a CVN, would probably "NEVER" see a Growler....ever..., while the Prowler would escort the F/A-18A-D Hornets (soon to be "Seas"/ Corp) from the carrier decks/ runways for the Corp.... or not???

...so...that being said, the "Bee" (relative of the Harrier (LHA/ LHD), ) also will not be allowed near a CVN/ Growlers....

....the EA/EW capability of the 4 group of Bee's will be "NOT" supplemented by the far distant CVN Growlers....

..or am I on a tangent, here on my soap box?..

IMHO,
:)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2017, 11:19
by popcorn
neptune wrote:
...not to create an argument but to simply ask a question.....do CVNs and Amphibs swim together..ever??



The participants in BOLD ALLIGATOR 2012...
- Enterprise Carrier Strike Group (CSG)
- Expeditionary Strike Group 2 (ESG-2)
- 2d Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB)
- Iwo Jima Amphibious Ready Group (ARG)
-24th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU)
- Naval Expeditionary Combat Command (NECC) as well as various other ships and units

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 00:12
by spazsinbad
F-35 is more like a "mini-AWACS" but "fighting in the dark with little or no tech at all". WUT! BVR in the DARK! WUT?!
Fusion Training for Fusion Warfare
03 Mar 2017 Wilson Brissett

"Training airmen for the battlespace of the future will require fusion training environments that use fifth generation capabilities of the F-35 and T-X trainer, top Air Force generals said at AW​S17 Thursday. Fusion warfare will require “agile airmen, highly trained in their primary duty,” but also ready to “synergize” across the force, said Lt. Gen. Darryl Roberson, chief of Air Education and Training Command. One way to achieve this goal is to get young airmen more time in air operations centers “to expose more airmen to the network infused environment.” This sort of experience can help “unleash that thought potential,” which Air Combat Command boss Gen. Hawk Carlisle said is the greatest advantage of the US military. The challenge is daunting, however. Roberson said the Air Force ultimately needs airmen who are “proficient at fighting in the dark with little or no technology at all.” [QUE?]

New capabilities will help too. Roberson singled out the F-35 and the T-X trainer. The fifth generation fighter is “a difference-maker in how we can carry out command and control and fuse all components of warfighting in future conflicts,” he said. “In these future conflicts, the fifth-generation fighter aircraft is our key to mature air superiority for the United States.” He said the F-35 operates “more like an AWACS than an individual fighter,” bringing additional command capabilities to the battlespace. And the T-X will be necessary for “bridging the technological gap between our current trainers and that fifth-generation capability.” The continued development of the T-X trainer is “central to our ability to transition, to bring in more of this networked warfare and fusion, and start training our students from the very beginning what they’re going to see when they get out and operational.”

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... rfare.aspx

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 00:33
by spazsinbad
Navy Starts Up Cyber ‘Top Gun’ School: Information Warfare Development Center
03 Mar 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"This month, the Navy will launch the cyber equivalent of its famous TOPGUN course for fighter pilots. The school will teach selected cyber specialists the best tactics to keep hackers [out of] our Navy networks.

Much like TOPGUN, which is now part of the Naval Aviation Warfighting Development Center (NAWDC) in Fallon, Nevada, the new Information Warfare Development Center (IWDC) will bring top-notch specialists together to train on and refine the latest tactics, then send them back to the fleet to teach those best practices to the rest of the force. (Kelly McGinnis and homoerotic volleyball are, sadly, not on the real-life curriculum)....

...One innovation already spreading across the fleet is the position of information warfare commander. Just as a carrier strike group will have one senior officer orchestrating all air operations, another hunting submarines, and so on, admirals now often appoint an information warfare chief to oversee cyber/electronic warfare, intelligence, and so on. The problem is it’s currently done ad hoc, without the established procedures and trained professionals of other “warfare areas.” Sometimes a strike group’s information warfare commander is the most senior IW officer on the staff, but sometimes it’s just an additional duty for the already overworked skipper of the aircraft carrier.

“Five to 10 to 15 years ago, in a more relatively benign environment, that kind of approach might have been okay, (but) you cannot do that now,” Kohler said. “Frankly, it is way too demanding of a position to put someone other than an information warfare professional into the job.” So NAVIFOR is now developing specialized training for a carrier strike group information warfare commander, Kohler said, and it’s looking at training for Amphibious Ready Group staffs as well.

Indeed, across the entire Navy, there’s a move towards new concepts of command and control that depend on long-range communications networks. These range from the NIFC-CA system for detecting and shooting down incoming missiles and bombers to the distributed lethality concept for coordinating attacks from widely dispersed ships. “That kind of distributed operations… cannot be done without the kind of capabilities that we provide,” Kohler said. “It is bringing us to the very forefront of warfighting.”"

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2017/03/navy ... nt-center/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2017, 01:27
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:
Navy Starts Up Cyber ‘Top Gun’ School: Information Warfare Development Center
03 Mar 2017 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"This month, the Navy will launch the cyber equivalent of its famous TOPGUN course for fighter pilots. The school will teach selected cyber specialists the best tactics to keep hackers [out of] our Navy networks.

Much like TOPGUN, which is now part of the Naval Aviation Warfighting Development Center (NAWDC) in Fallon, Nevada, the new Information Warfare Development Center (IWDC) will bring top-notch specialists together to train on and refine the latest tactics, then send them back to the fleet to teach those best practices to the rest of the force. (Kelly McGinnis and homoerotic volleyball are, sadly, not on the real-life curriculum)....

...One innovation already spreading across the fleet is the position of information warfare commander. Just as a carrier strike group will have one senior officer orchestrating all air operations, another hunting submarines, and so on, admirals now often appoint an information warfare chief to oversee cyber/electronic warfare, intelligence, and so on. The problem is it’s currently done ad hoc, without the established procedures and trained professionals of other “warfare areas.” Sometimes a strike group’s information warfare commander is the most senior IW officer on the staff, but sometimes it’s just an additional duty for the already overworked skipper of the aircraft carrier.

“Five to 10 to 15 years ago, in a more relatively benign environment, that kind of approach might have been okay, (but) you cannot do that now,” Kohler said. “Frankly, it is way too demanding of a position to put someone other than an information warfare professional into the job.” So NAVIFOR is now developing specialized training for a carrier strike group information warfare commander, Kohler said, and it’s looking at training for Amphibious Ready Group staffs as well.

Indeed, across the entire Navy, there’s a move towards new concepts of command and control that depend on long-range communications networks. These range from the NIFC-CA system for detecting and shooting down incoming missiles and bombers to the distributed lethality concept for coordinating attacks from widely dispersed ships. “That kind of distributed operations… cannot be done without the kind of capabilities that we provide,” Kohler said. “It is bringing us to the very forefront of warfighting.”"

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2017/03/navy ... nt-center/


....it also helps to know to "stick them with the pointy end!" :)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 19:43
by neptune
https://news.usni.org/2018/01/16/30631

Surface Navy Working to Bring Firepower Over the Horizon Through Networking, F-35 Integration


By: Ben Werner
January 16, 2018

The surface Navy is looking to capitalize on recent successes increasing ships’ offensive range and lethality, with the next task being added sensing and targeting capabilities to support its new weaponry. Rear Adm. Ronald Boxall, the Navy’s director of surface warfare (N96), said the Navy is looking for ways to do long-range intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance, and targeting (ISR-T) as a next step following recent advances in implementing the distributed lethality concept — where surface ships are better armed and conduct disaggregated operations to complicate the enemy’s targeting. “We used to be able to say, ‘hey, we’d target out to the range of our helicopters,’” Boxall said at last week’s Surface Navy Association annual symposium. “Now we’re looking, as our weapons’ range gets very long, the next order of effect is how do we target out to those very long ranges?”

Combinations of surface ships, unmanned systems, submarines, and aircraft are all being tried to determine how best expand range, Boxall’s counterpart, director of expeditionary warfare Marine Corps Maj. Gen. David Coffman (OPNAV N95) said, citing recent technology improvements such as the SPY-6 Air and Missile Defense Radar (AMDR) and maritime strike Tomahawk missiles as enablers of this new range. Boxall cited as examples the Littoral Combat Ship, which has already tested an over-the-horizon missile that the service plans to field “over the summer,” and the Maritime Strike Tomahawk, which “we’re going to continue to field that going forward. Everybody who has vertical cell, if you have that you can field this.”

A key enabler going forward will be the Marine Corps’ Lockheed Martin F-35B Lighting II Joint Strike Fighters (JSF), which will be integrated into amphibious ready group (ARG) operations this year , 2018. Amphibious assault ships’ flight decks have already been upgraded to support F-35B operations, Coffman said, and now the operators will learn to use the planes to help the Navy and Marine Corps team fight farther inland. Coffman said he wants to get away from the idea Navy ships are just buses that transport Marines. Instead, he wants Marines embarked on the ships to be an integrated part of the what he said was the “fight to get to the fight.” He cited the new USS America (LHA-6), an amphibious assault ship that does not have a well deck to deliver Marines ashore via surface connector. Instead, the ship can carry more F-35B aircraft and the offensive firepower and computing power they bring, and more rotary wing aircraft to bring Marines ashore from further distances away from threats in the sea or on land. “No one else on the planet can do what we can do in scope and scale in the littoral battlespace or in warfighting from the sea,” Coffman said. “That’s just the facts.”
:)

....the interesting part of this is that "Rear Adm. Ronald Boxall, the Navy’s director of surface warfare (N96)
is obviously not part of Naval Aviation (N98) but has the influence over "all that floats"! Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) a basic component of NIFC-CA is about sensors. N96 only sees the F-35B/C as a CEC sensor, regardless if it launches from a CVN or an LHA/D. The data integration of a flight of F-35B/Cs streamed to either a E-2D or direct to an Aegis Baseline 9 CG/DDG provides remote sensing and targeting that presently can't be provided by another aircraft. "Sensors on the F-35 include the Active Electronically Scanned Array, or AESA, radar as well as a system called Distributed Aperture System, or DAS, which combines input from as many as six different electro-optical cameras on the aircraft. The aircraft also draws upon a technology called Electro-optical Targeting System, or EOTS, which helps identify and pinpoint targets. EOTS, which does both air-to-air and air-to-ground targeting, is able to combine forward-looking infrared and infrared search and track technology." https://www.military.com/defensetech/2015/01/22/navy-to-integrate-f-35-with-beyond-the-horizon-technology

...NIFC-CA/Link 16 was recently validated with NavAir by the USS Desert Ship LLS-1/MADL Aegis Baseline 9.C1 with the launch of a SM-6 and the targeting by a VMX-1 F-35B/MADL to LLS-1 for a target at <260+ mile range. "This test (12Sep16) was a great opportunity to assess the Navy's ability to take unrelated technologies and successfully close the fire control loop as well as merge anti-surface and anti-air weapons into a single kill web that shares common sensors, links and weapons,".
:wink:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 20:40
by XanderCrews
Surface navy not concerned with the super bug vs C urine contest

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 21:18
by spazsinbad
'neptune' article above already posted here earlier: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=53762&p=386002&hilit=Werner#p386002

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2018, 04:50
by spazsinbad
U.S. Navy To Test F-35 With Aegis At Sea
05 Feb 2018 James Drew

"SINGAPORE—The U.S. Navy hopes to further validate the Lockheed Martin F-35’s performance as an airborne sensor for air and missile defense in an upcoming Aegis sea ..." [That's all he/she rote - no sub]

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/us- ... -aegis-sea

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2018, 05:21
by rheonomic
Looks like you need an AWIN account to get it, which IIRC are ridiculously expensive.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2018, 05:48
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:
U.S. Navy To Test F-35 With Aegis At Sea
05 Feb 2018 James Drew

"SINGAPORE—The U.S. Navy hopes to further validate the Lockheed Martin F-35’s performance as an airborne sensor for air and missile defense in an upcoming Aegis sea ..." [That's all he/she rote - no sub]

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/us- ... -aegis-sea


....or....they could ask the Marines how it works on the "Bee"
:D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 17:47
by doge
spazsinbad wrote:
U.S. Navy To Test F-35 With Aegis At Sea
05 Feb 2018 James Drew

"SINGAPORE—The U.S. Navy hopes to further validate the Lockheed Martin F-35’s performance as an airborne sensor for air and missile defense in an upcoming Aegis sea ..." [That's all he/she rote - no sub]

Source: http://aviationweek.com/awindefense/us- ... -aegis-sea

I found the Full Text...(It's a reprint from other forums...)
SINGAPORE—The U.S. Navy hopes to further validate the Lockheed Martin F-35’s performance as an airborne sensor for air and missile defense in an upcoming Aegis sea trial.

Sometime between June and August, the Navy will attempt to use tracking data from an F-35 to shoot down an air-breathing target drone with a Raytheon Standard Missile-6 (SM-6) interceptor fired from an Aegis ship in the Pacific Ocean.

Steve Over, Lockheed’s director of F-35 international business development, says the at-sea demonstration will be a follow-on to a September 2016 test involving a Marine Corps F-35B and the USS Desert Ship at White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico. In that trial, targeting data from the F-35B was used to successfully intercept an MQM-107 Streaker target drone with an SM-6.

At the time, the government wanted to preserve the MQM-107 for reuse, but the test proved to be so successful that the radar-guided SM-6 destroyed it on impact. The SM-6’s fuse had been replaced with a telemetry kit to measure its final proximity to the target rather than explode, but it struck the MQM-107 target anyway.

“The Navy got very excited when we did this successful test that they’re planning the next test now,” Over said during an interview at the Singapore Airshow here Feb. 4. “They plan to do a live-fire exercise out in the Pacific this summer [Northern Hemisphere].”

The key to these tests is enabling the Aegis Combat System to receive information from the Joint Strike Fighter’s Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL). This data link has a low probability of detection by passing information through a narrow, directional beam that is extremely difficult to intercept.

Over says last November the Navy outfitted one of its San Diego-based Aegis destroyers with a MADL receiver in preparation for the upcoming test. With this modification, the ship can receive targeting information directly from the F-35.

The purpose of this at-sea demonstration is to show how the F-35’s advanced Northrop Grumman-built infrared distributed aperture system (DAS); active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar; and fusion algorithms can support air and missile defense as part of a networked “kill web” architecture.

The F-35’s six-camera electro-optical/infrared Northrop AAQ-37 DAS enables the pilot to look through the skin of the aircraft and see incoming air and missile threats at great distances. DAS’s full capability became apparent in 2010 when an F-35 flying near Washington, D.C., detected a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket launch at Cape Canaveral almost 800 nm (1,482 km) away.

Two networked DAS systems can be linked together to generate a three-dimensional target track, or it can simply cue the F-35’s Northrop APG-81 AESA fire control radar, if within range, to get an even better track.

This targeting information can then be passed via MADL to any “shooter” capable of intercepting the target through kinetic or electromagnetic means. This could include the U.S.’s Aegis, Patriot or Thaad missile systems.

Flying at 30,000 ft., the F-35 can see farther than any land- or sea-based sensors. In the September 2016 test, the MQM-107 was replicating a subsonic cruise missile flying low behind a mountain range and it could not have been seen without the F-35B.

“Aegis didn’t even have its radar turned on,” Over notes. “It couldn’t have even seen the target drone because of the mountain range.”

Over says the F-35B provided an initial target location as well as midcourse guidance updates to the SM-6. He says SM-6 is an “enormous missile” that could not possibly be carried by a typical fighter aircraft, so linking F-35 and Aegis allows the F-35 to kill a wider variety of targets without even firing a single shot.

“This is a logical evolution of the capability of the airplane,” Over says. “It just requires software and the right communications link.”

John Montgomery, Northrop’s fifth-generation improvements and derivatives program manager, says the distributed aperture system ensures that no airborne missile can sneak up on the F-35. Northrop has been exploring ways to employ DAS for air and missile defense for several years. This capability was successfully demonstrated during a test designated FTX-20 on Oct. 16, 2014.

During that trial in Hawaii, a ground-based DAS and one carried aboard a Gulfstream testbed aircraft were able to establish a three-dimensional target track of a medium-range, surface-to-surface ballistic missile.

“This weapon system is going to evolve to do things legacy fighter airplanes could have never even thought about,” Over says.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 17:54
by spazsinbad
Thanks a bunch. :applause:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 20:50
by neptune
doge wrote:
MADL

...at 30,000 ft., the F-35 can see farther than. surface based sensors. In ..2016 test, MQM-107 was ..flying low behind a mountain range and it could not have been seen without the F-35B. “Aegis didn’t even have its radar turned on,” ..F-35B provided an initial target location, mid-course guidance updates to the SM-6..“This is a logical evolution of the capability of the airplane,” . “It just requires software and the right communications link.(MADL)”

The U.S. Navy hopes to further validate the Lockheed Martin F-35’s performance as an airborne sensor for air and missile defense in an upcoming 2018 Aegis sea trial. ..The tests is enabling the Aegis Combat System to receive information from the Joint Strike Fighter’s Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL)...the Navy outfitted one of its San Diego-based Aegis destroyers with a MADL receiver?? in preparation for the upcoming test. With this modification, the ship can receive (fused) targeting information directly from the F-35.

The purpose. .2018 at-sea demo.to show how F-35;

- infrared distributed aperture system (DAS)
- active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar
- fusion algorithms

can support air and missile defense (surface) as part of a networked “kill web” architecture..This (fused) targeting information can then be passed to any “MADL shooter” capable of intercepting the target through kinetic (Aegis, Patriot, Thaad, HIMARS/MLRS) or electromagnetic (Laser, Railgun)..

DAS

Two networked DAS systems can be linked together to generate a three-dimensional target track, or it can simply cue the F-35’s Northrop APG-81 AESA ..the distributed aperture system ensures that no airborne missile can sneak up on the F-35.
.to employ DAS for air and missile defense ... a test .on Oct. 16, 2014. .a ground-based DAS and one carried aboard a Gulfstream testbed aircraft were able to establish a three-dimensional target track of a medium-range, surface-to-surface ballistic missile..



....the comments of the Corp Commandant, "for 1 more dollar!"; to upgrade the Navy ships (amphibs) with F-35B MADL, for Situational Awareness (SA)/ ((Defense/ Attack)).
:wink:

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 21:06
by SpudmanWP
Given that the Freedom550 terminal is a thing, how difficult is it to integrate a standard data source into an AEGIS system?

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... rminal.pdf

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 22:55
by neptune
SpudmanWP wrote:Given that the Freedom550 terminal is a thing, how difficult is it to integrate a standard data source into an AEGIS system?

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... rminal.pdf


....insight and desire!
:)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2018, 03:41
by rheonomic
SpudmanWP wrote:Given that the Freedom550 terminal is a thing, how difficult is it to integrate a standard data source into an AEGIS system?

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... rminal.pdf


Given the Aegis transition to open architecture, I'd say the difficulty would be on the funding side rather than the technical.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2018, 05:47
by gc
" At the time, the government wanted to preserve the MQM-107 for reuse, but the test proved to be so successful that the radar-guided SM-6 destroyed it on impact. The SM-6’s fuse had been replaced with a telemetry kit to measure its final proximity to the target rather than explode, but it struck the MQM-107 target anyway."

"The F-35’s six-camera electro-optical/infrared Northrop AAQ-37 DAS enables the pilot to look through the skin of the aircraft and see incoming air and missile threats at great distances. DAS’s full capability became apparent in 2010 when an F-35 flying near Washington, D.C., detected a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket launch at Cape Canaveral almost 800 nm (1,482 km) away."

All these happening while people are still discussing about how well Sukhois can turn and burn in WVR combat. They need to keep up with times and move on from their beloved antiques.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2018, 08:55
by neptune
rheonomic wrote:Given that the Freedom550 terminal is a thing, how difficult is it to integrate a standard data source into an AEGIS system?.
Given the Aegis transition to open architecture, I'd say the difficulty would be on the funding side rather than the technical.


....Au contraire! To the USNavy it is only another f'in' radio; not another expensive, "shiny" new chrome plated anchor for their big boat!

...The issue is the operation of the MAGTF/ USN fleet with LPI comm and the F-35s providing SA for each and every platform associated with defense and attack. It is utilizing the data and the reach of "networked" 30k+ foot sensors that provide real time "processed/ fused/ referenced" data for their ships, the a/c and on the amphibs - the troops on the move/ on the ground. The "Eye in the Sky" with an updated library; more than a flying radar (in the back).

...MADL is the network for 5th Generation tactics!
Every ship in the MAGTF, be it amphibs or VLS escorts can share real time (targeting) data from the 30k+ foot sensors out to 600nm (not just OTH radar)! Networked sensors/data from every F-35 coming and going from the ARG and "when fitted" each and every Tilt/Rotor craft with ISR sensors. IFF for the "boots on the ground".

...IMHO, it is a bit more than meager radio funding for the USN ships.
:)

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 23:28
by spazsinbad
How the F-35s fit within the future USN fleet - a tidbit - but explained at length in this thread and others IIRC - HOKAY?!
The newest weapon in the US Navy’s arsenal is now under construction
10 May 2018 David B. Larter

"WASHINGTON ― When the destroyer Jack Lucas joins the U.S. Navy’s fleet in 2024, it will look similar to the 73 Arleigh Burke-class destroyers that preceded it. But it’s going to be a very different, more capable killer than its predecessors. Huntington Ingalls announced Tuesday that it had begun fabrication of the first Flight III Destroyer, a ship that crucially adds Raytheon’s AN/SPY-6 air and missile defense radar….

...The air and missile defense radar destined for Jack Lucas and its sister follow-on destroyers is 30 times more sensitive than the AN/ SPY-1D radars on the previous ships, additional sensitivity that will supercharge its capabilities in anti-air warfare and ballistic missile defense.

Coupled with ongoing Surface Electronic Warfare Improvement Program upgrades, the Jack Lucas will also have increased passive capabilities. When used in conjunction with other off-board passive sensors, such as with the F-35 fighter jet, it will be able to triangulate and locate a target without going active and giving away the ship’s position…."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/ ... struction/

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2018, 16:10
by geforcerfx
Spaz asked for the F-35C questions to get moved off the UK carrier thread, so here I am.

My question was
sprstdlyscottsmn
Don't get hung up on G. The F-35C will have the best turn rates at operational conditions, both ITR and STR. Being 7.5G means it puts less stress on the pilot to have that agility. 9G will only be available to the A at airshow altitudes or supersonic speeds at operational altitudes. At 0.9M and 30,000ft, with 60% fuel and an A-G internal load, the F-35A is limited to just under 7G. It can't make enough lift to reach 9. Meanwhile an F-35C with the same conditions can reach 7.5G down to about 0.83M.

The acceleration and purchase points are very valid still.


So better lift equals better turn, but don't you need power for sustained turn performance, the C's extra 7,000lbs puts it at power disadvantage compared to the A.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2018, 21:39
by blindpilot
geforcerfx wrote:Spaz asked for the F-35C questions to get moved off the UK carrier thread, so here I am.

My question was
...

So better lift equals better turn, but don't you need power for sustained turn performance, the C's extra 7,000lbs puts it at power disadvantage compared to the A.


Sure there are lots of considerations and tradeoffs. If you want a hypersonic, super stealthy, hypermaneuver fighter, ask Lockheed, Boeing, or Northrop. I'm sure they can design to that spec.

I can't speak to the costs however. It could be a bit more .. and you'll have to negotiate how much you want to pay for what ...

One good reason for bringing the question here is to look at the last several posts, you can see how the question of maneuverability is rapidly becoming a "oh btw, even though it doesn't matter," type question. The C meets the requirement the Navy had. Yes "Mo power!" and less drag, and ITR/STR are applicable to overall performance, but with 5th Gen SA and high maneuver missiles, you sort of get to best case ... mutual kill situation.

The A is designed to be "as good as an F-16/F-18" in maneuver.
The B adds as good as can be and still do STOVL
The C is as good and still land on CVN's.(CATOBAR).

The tradeoffs are way down the list, and far less a question than the reality of 5th Gen SA and CONOPS.

But ... in case you care ... they all are competitive with 4th ++ gen fighters in that realm ... where we all shoot each other down with 9X's or some ship's SM-6 etc. That sounds like fun ... not!

MHO,
BP

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2018, 03:12
by geforcerfx
I agree with the sensor shooter concept( have for awhile) and agree with the dogfight being a death trap for all who enter.

I was asking based off his statement that the F-35C would have the best STR. I don't know a ton about aeronautics and still learning when I can. I thought T/W was a important factor in STR, I know lift to drag is as well, but it seemed people were saying power was more important in STR.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2018, 16:49
by zero-one
blindpilot wrote:you can see how the question of maneuverability is rapidly becoming a "oh btw, even though it doesn't matter," type question.


I think of maneuverability much like speed. it was SA and Stealth before SA and Stealth became a thing. in the 60s, Supersonic dash speeds were the prime demand of most air forces. Thats why most planes designed during that era looked like missiles with cockpits.

but it slowly became the norm and we needed to move on to another capability to gain an advantage. But then again we never went back to designing subsonic fighters. Not to any extent at least.

And even though Supersonic isn't talked about anymore, the Supersonic capabilities of modern fighters are far and away so much better than how it was when it was still in premium demand. I'd bet the slightly slower F/A-18 would out run the Mirage 3 in combat.

So even though maneuverability isn't the top demand anymore, I think that as long as it's a requirement, even if its a secondary requirement would still be better on future platforms simply because of sheer technological advancements.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2018, 19:27
by sprstdlyscottsmn
geforcerfx wrote:Spaz asked for the F-35C questions to get moved off the UK carrier thread, so here I am.

.....

So better lift equals better turn, but don't you need power for sustained turn performance, the C's extra 7,000lbs puts it at power disadvantage compared to the A.
[/quote]
Sorry, I still ended up dropping an answer on the other thread.

"Better" lift equals "better" turns... way too oversimplified at yet very applicable to the current discussion.

I model the maneuver weight (max weight for max G) of the F-35A at ~52,000lb and for the F-35C ~59,000lb. The F-35C is indeed 7,000lb heavier under these conditions, 13% heavier than the A.

With max G loads of 9 and 7.5, respectively, the raw lift capability of the two variants is ~470,000lb and ~444,000lb (5.8% more lift for the A). The A at 9 G is making more lift with it's 460 ft "Wing Area" than the C with its 620 ft "Wing Area" (35% more lifting area). This means the maximum effort lift loadings are over 1,020 pounds of lift per square foot of "Wing Area" for the A and just over 715 pounds of lift per square foot of "Wing Area" for the C.

At any given speed and G, the C will need a lower CL to create the lift than the A. So if they are both making 5G at a given speed and altitude the C will have a significantly lower CL than the A even though it is making 13% more lift. As the A need ~20% more CL to generate any given G than the C, it has a corresponding 62% higher CDi (assuming they have matching Oswald's efficiency factors, which I expect the C has a better one of those too). A 62% higher CDi combined with the 35% smaller wing comes out to be that at any given speed, altitude, and G the F-35A will have 20% higher induced drag than the F-35C. In level and high speed flight this drag is less than form drag and wave drag so it is not much of a factor in acceleration. In high G flight this is the dominant form of drag.

So at a point where the thrust equals the total drag of a turning F-35C (speed and altitude remain constant), the lighter F-35A in a matching turn is going to have negative excess thrust and is going to lose speed and/or altitude.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 05:55
by geforcerfx
SO the smaller lighter A variant will lose speed at the C's max STR because it will create to much drag is what I got from that (again super basic aeronautics understanding). That just seems weird in my mind I guess, So if they were both at the same STR that they could both maintain would the C would be pulling less G as well?

Thanks for the answer

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 01:21
by weasel1962
A few self-interest aka hack job articles criticising the F-35C range will likely emerge. Source of this is a house committee comment. How one can identify an hack job is of course when they conveniently leave out the intent or selectively quote.

https://www.stripes.com/news/us/navy-s- ... e-1.528359

So instead of quoting the articles, I would instead quote the entire house committee's comment which is available in the link below. The item in bold of course can be read with all the existing and recent discussions about JASSM-ER, LRASM and AETP engines available in the various threads of f-16.net.

https://www.congress.gov/115/crpt/hrpt6 ... rpt676.pdf

Briefing for the Senate Committee on Armed Services and the House Committee on Armed Services on US Navy’s efforts to expand carrier air wing long-range strike capability

The committee notes that the aircraft carrier air wing has been optimized for striking power and sortie generation and believes that it may not be configured to support the long-range strike required by current and future threat systems. While the introduction of the F–35C will significantly expand stealth capabilities, the F–35C could require increased range to address necessary targets. The committee believes that several options could be used to address this issue to include developing a stealth tanker capability, improved engine technology or to develop and procure a strike capability that is purposely built to strike at increased range. The committee further notes that the Navy previously desired to significantly increase the carrier air wing range with the development of the A–12 aircraft. The committee understands that the A–12 would have included a 5,000-pound internal carriage payload, stealth, and a range of 800 nautical miles. While the committee believes that requirements to support this capability remain relevant and the technology available, the development of the A–12 aircraft was mired in acquisition challenges that eventually resulted in the cancellation
of the program. While the committee further believes that the Department of Defense has successfully developed a suite of long-range intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities, the committee also believes that it is vital that the Navy develop a carrier-based long-range strike capability.

Therefore, the committee directs the Secretary of the Navy to provide a briefing to the Senate Committee on Armed Services and the House Committee on Armed Services by January 25, 2019, on options to expand the strike range of a carrier air wing in a contested environment, including manned and unmanned capabilities, and, Department of the Navy capabilities it plans to pursue in the Next Generation Air Dominance capability.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 02:45
by steve2267
Geforce, perhaps think of the -A vs -C turning question thusly:

All aircraft flying at X knots, pulling Y G's, will have a turn rate of Z °/sec. The difference between aircraft being how much drag they generate to pull those Y G's, and whether they have a big enough motor to sustain that rate (STR).

What I hear spuds saying, is that since the -A has a smaller wing (460 ft^2), it has to fly at a higher angle of attack to generate the lift necessary to pull the same G's as a -C. As angle of attack increases, induced drag also increases. So the -A, with the smaller wing, is less efficient at pulling those G's and must fly at a higher AoA than the -C to develop the lift required for Y G's, and the higher AoA results in additional (i.e. higher) induced drag which ends up exceeding the power developed by the F135, so the -A ends up losing speed compared to the -C. If it loses speed, then the -A cannot sustain the
STR of the -C, and it will slow down to some smaller STR where it's total drag equals the thrust of the motor.

Isn't this what wing loading tells us about STR performance? Aircraft with lower wing loading have better STR -- they can generate the required lift for those Y G's at a lower angle of attack than the aircraft with a higher wing loading -- as long as they have the engine power to equal the generated drag. The -C and the -A have the same motor, so engine power is equal (for all intents and purposes.) So the aircraft with the lesser wing loading will be able to fly Y G's at a lower AoA, thereby generating less drag. The -C at 59K lbs and 668 ft^2 has a wing loading of around 88 lb/ft^2, whereas an -A at 52K lbs and 460 ft^2 has a wing loading of 113 lb/ft^2. The -C has about a 23% lower wing loading than the -A, so it should not be surprising that it "turns better" than the A.

Have a look at the Ps=0 curve below. Joe Studly could turn at 14°/sec at 0.9 Mach pulling about 7.4G for a turn radius of 4000'. Sam Slacker could get those same 14°/sec at 0.76 Mach but pulling a less demanding 6.2G and with a smaller turn radius of 3300' +/-. So just because one aircraft can out-G another, does not mean that the higher G aircraft is necessarily going to outmaneuver or outturn the lesser G aircraft. If you're driving with your hair on fire at 0.9 Mach and pulling 9G for your life, and I can slow down and pull the same or better turn rate at 0.5 or 0.6 or 0.7 Mach, I will be at lesser G (easier on my body, easier to maintain my SA), and I will have a smaller turn radius. It is for this reason, I think (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), that the ability to slow down quickly (e.g. Morten 'Dolby' Hanche's comments) and accelerate quickly ("it's like a Hornet with a TURBO!") are just as important, perhaps more so, than being able to drive around with one's hair on fire and pull uber-G.

Image

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 03:04
by spazsinbad
"Raging pulling G out over Atlantic Ocean in [F-35C] CF-5. Love this jet...flies like a kite and turns like a snowboard in deep powder snow." https://twitter.com/billieflynn/status/ ... 0411800576

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 03:11
by popcorn
Deleted

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 13:05
by steve2267
Love that tweet by Flynn. Thanks for noting it spaz.

Question for the forum: it is hard to tell from a still photo, but is this another example of the F-35 stabs generating lift in a stable flight condition (i.e. left turn), or of using the stabs, along with the flaperons, to generate roll? I note the positive angle of attack of the right stab, and the slight deflection of the right flaperon. My interpretation was that the jet is using the stabs to generate lift, but the picture could have captured the left rolling transient.

Image

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 18:48
by basher54321
steve2267 wrote:Isn't this what wing loading tells us about STR performance?


Not really:

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=52948

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 20:48
by sprstdlyscottsmn
basher54321 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Isn't this what wing loading tells us about STR performance?


Not really:

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=52948

From first post in the above link,

"Then you need to remember that the greater the difference between Wing Loading and Lift Loading the greater the induced drag will be meaning Sustained (Ps=0) turns are that much harder." In the case of the 5G F-35s, the F-35A has a greater difference between Wing Loading and Lift Loading compared to the F-35C. And this is a special case as except for weight and wing/stab size they are the same plane. Same body, same engine.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 17:47
by marsavian
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
zero-one wrote:
If I remember the operational performance comparison chart for the F-35A correctly, it'll pull an ITR of 9Gs at FL200 at both Mach 0.8 and Corner speed of Mach 0.74. Were there any revisions made to this

Using the weight conditions of 60% fuel, two AMRAAMS, and two GBU-31s the following is the performance my models show.

20,000ft

F-35A is 9G from ~0.82M with an ITR of just under 20.
F-35C is 7.5G from ~0.65M with an ITR of just around 20.

Assuming both start at the benchmark "0.8M at 20,000ft" mark and perform a max lift 180 degree turn, my current model shows the following.

The F-35A getting its nose around in 12.6 seconds (actual heading plus AoA) having decelerated to 0.34M with an average turn radius of 2,432ft.
The F-35C getting its nose around in 10.7 seconds (actual heading plus AoA) having decelerated to 0.31M with an average turn radius of 2,040ft.


A 10.7s 180deg at 20kft sounds very good for a loaded F-35C, what other aircraft in your models can broadly match that ? Maybe add the equivalent amount of fuel for
the two GBU-31s to get a clean airframe comparison.

p.s. the F-35C just looks perfectly proportioned from all angles, nice to know that has performance benefits too.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 21:37
by johnwill
steve2267 wrote:Love that tweet by Flynn. Thanks for noting it spaz.

Question for the forum: it is hard to tell from a still photo, but is this another example of the F-35 stabs generating lift in a stable flight condition (i.e. left turn), or of using the stabs, along with the flaperons, to generate roll? I note the positive angle of attack of the right stab, and the slight deflection of the right flaperon. My interpretation was that the jet is using the stabs to generate lift, but the picture could have captured the left rolling transient.

Image


Steve, in my opinion, the airplane is not rolling. The left flaperon appears to be deflected down about the same as the right (zoom in to see it), and the tail leading edge up is about normal for zero roll. There is no way to tell if the load on the tail is up or down due to the large effect of wing and flaperon downwash on the tail. If subsonic, the load should be up with no roll rate.

Surprisingly (maybe) in a subsonic roll using flaperons and tails to roll, in a left roll the load on the right tail will be down due to the very large downwash of the flaperon. But when supersonic, tail roll deflections are increased enough to overcome the downwash so right tail load is up in a left roll.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 22:37
by spazsinbad

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 03:57
by rheonomic
spazsinbad wrote:http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/media/2010_CF01_FW_Paint_04_1267828237_4142.JPG


Ooh, virtual speedbrake. Nice.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 01:50
by SpudmanWP
IIRC the JPO has to deliver 4 of each version (A/B/C) to the DOT&E for IOT&E. All of IOT&E birds are early LRIP F-35s, not new builds and as such need 3F & TR3 upgrades with a few concurrency upgrades thrown in for good measure.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 10:42
by saberrider
spazsinbad wrote:http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/media/2010_CF01_FW_Paint_04_1267828237_4142.JPG

Because F35 don't have airbrake board ,multiple control surfaces take that role ,but then how can maneuver after all this area planform are deployed to the max.?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 23 Jul 2018, 11:02
by spazsinbad
The control surfaces are moving all the time (via computer flight controls) even though speed brake deployed. From my experience (in the A4G) the speedbrakes for the F-35 will be very effective. For example at over 400 KIAS the A4G speed brake would just 'crack open' with a dramatic decrease in airspeed (similar to the feel of an arrested landing ashore).

However an A4G at landing weight at optimum angle of attack airspeed would have the speed brake fully deployed - but not very effective (still useful to increase throttle RPM by a small amount for wave off engine response). Therefore one may assume I'll guess that we see the F-35C speedbrakes deployed at a slow airspeed for maximum photo effect?

The F-35C will usually approach the carrier using IDLC (Itegrated Direct Lift Control) with videos showing the control surfaces flapping every which way sometimes but not done by pilot but by the computer flight controls - videos show it.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 09:01
by KamenRiderBlade
I'm still hoping that at some point down the line, the F-35A replacement / update will be a F-35C without the folding wing mechanism, but use the same planform with updated engines along with avionics.

Adjust the body ratio / internal structure to meet the 9.0g capabilities.

That enough would make very happy since the C is my favorite variant =D

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 09:56
by marsavian
It will still have poorer acceleration than the F-35A though due to weight and drag. A fuselage redesign with a smoother area rule and higher fineness ratio would help but then you would lose commonality with the B. A more powerful engine could give you latitude to add weight to the B design but it would be best to redesign all three at the same time if you are going for a new A to ensure the current commonality is not degraded significantly.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 12:22
by element1loop
marsavian wrote:It will still have poorer acceleration than the F-35A though due to weight and drag. A fuselage redesign with a smoother area rule and higher fineness ratio would help but then you would lose commonality with the B. A more powerful engine could give you latitude to add weight to the B design but it would be best to redesign all three at the same time if you are going for a new A to ensure the current commonality is not degraded significantly.


As the aircraft ages and OPFOR sensors and systems improve the detection hemispheres of short-range surface sensors and GBADs will expand. You can deal with the heavy and medium SAMs only until everything else can track you and share data with them. One option to make life easier is a more powerful engine and a bigger wing and fly 15k ft higher (~5 km more distant).

Your and instant smaller target for active or passive ground sensors to get photons off, and more tactical airspace volume and options to operate in. That alone could reduce a lot of future tactical hazards in the same way tactical aircraft during Desert Storm did not operate below 15,000 ft after a few days, due to initial damage and losses. Now SOP is about FL400, for the same hazard reduction reasons.

Critics complain about external stores reducing RCS, and about thermal sensors etc., well take it higher. It makes it harder to get the angles on the jet, and shrinks the engagement range and pk of GBAD, and makes any OPFOR fighter work harder to get to you, while increasing your own sensor and comms footprints and angles, while increasing your early-warning and tactical options (like shooting back before you bug-out).

An F-35D could go from operating at 40K ft presently to 60 k ft, and provide a lot more loiter, speed and range, to tactics and weapons options.

Yes it will accelerate a bit more slowly at low-level but you won't be fighting or operating at low-level in high-threat for A2A or A2G, and an engine update's thrust growth will negate most of the drag on acceleration, and grow high-altitude cruise-speed. Which will greatly extend range performance. And at high-level in thin air it will not be slower, it will actually greatly exceed the current performance envelope, and even sustain super-cruise egress, if required. Plus a kinetic and maneuver advantage in BVR.

Seems a very attractive option to have as things change.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 15:41
by marsavian
Sounds good apart from the angles angle. The higher you go the earlier they can see your underbelly compared to your lower RCS frontal quadrant.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 03:59
by element1loop
marsavian wrote:Sounds good apart from the angles angle. The higher you go the earlier they can see your underbelly compared to your lower RCS frontal quadrant.


Yes and no. I'm considering this in a day-two type high-intensity context.

If carrying external LO strike weapons, like JASSM or JSM, it's likely they're shadowing the noisiest part of the pylon connection to the weapon, from the point of view of the shorter-range ground sensors and GBAD. While your ESM can probably detect the longer-range ground sensors OK and you fly to keep out of their detection bubble while they're being dealt with by a weapon. So I think it is providing a better angles advantage also, as you go higher.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 14:48
by mixelflick
I like the F-35C, but one thing still really bugs me... that poor (relative to the A) acceleration.

I've often seen it stated here that the F-35 can out-accelerate a clean Flanker by 20%. Is that true of the C too? Or is it just true of the A and B? Otherwise the C rocks. Love that big wing...

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 17:35
by white_lightning35
mixelflick wrote:I like the F-35C, but one thing still really bugs me... that poor (relative to the A) acceleration.

I've often seen it stated here that the F-35 can out-accelerate a clean Flanker by 20%. Is that true of the C too? Or is it just true of the A and B? Otherwise the C rocks. Love that big wing...


Just curious, but how many times do you have to told about the acceleration differences between the A and C models before you realize that they are not the same? In the beginning of your post, you acknowledge the difference, but them you seem to just forget about it. Do you understand what being heavier and draggier with the same engine would mean? And surely by now you have seen charts about the acceleration differences between the different variants?

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 22:08
by wrightwing
element1loop wrote:



An F-35D could go from operating at 40K ft presently to 60 k ft, and provide a lot more loiter, speed and range, to tactics and weapons options.




The F-35 in its present state can already operate at nearly 60k ft. There wouldn't need to be a D model, to get above 40k.

Re: Navy: F-35C Will Be Eyes and Ears of the Fleet

Unread postPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 22:17
by spazsinbad
Preliminary F-35C Feedback is Positive, As Formal Operational Testing Begins This Fall
11 Oct 2018

"ARLINGTON, Va. — The Navy is beginning the formal operational testing of its first stealth aircraft to determine how well the F-35C Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter performs against stated goals and requirements, the admiral heading the integration office of F-35C said Wednesday....

...In answer to an audience question, Horan said the F-35C “is completely different than any airplane we’re flying.” He was referring to its low-observable stealth characteristic, along with newer technological capabilities and longer reach. He added those kinds of changes mean that pilots training to operate the new plane “are going to have to be a little different than a legacy pilot.”

The aircraft’s advanced sensors, in particular, coupled with its capability and range require that pilots “envision the mission differently than you and I.” But that will only come with time, as the Navy continues to buy more new planes so more pilots can train with them and more squadrons convert to the new platform.

Horan told USNI News, “we want to do things differently” with the Joint Strike Fighter, “and there are ways to do it differently.” He said the Navy is talking with the Air Force about the lessons it is learning with the F-22 Raptor stealth fighter’s operations in Syria and Iraq to see how they apply in sea service planning.

As an example, for an F-35C future mission, he said, “I may want to send them out as singles” rather than four strike fighters operating together to do a job.

Horan added, “We are sending a couple of F-35s out to every Top Gun [class at Naval Air Station Fallon, Nev.] to work with fourth-generation aircraft” to learn how to communicate and operate effectively together. Likewise, he didn’t foresee large obstacles in operating with allies, such as the United Kingdom that is introducing the Marine Corps variant F-35B to its operations and has its own fleet of legacy aircraft, or with allies and partners not in the F-35 program. He acknowledged that “countries use different weapons” and “countries use different ways of communicating,” but those differences can be addressed.

“That’s our job” to operate with others, whether they operate from the sea or from land. “That’s what naval aviation has always done.” The aircraft “has the backbone” to do that, Horan said in his talk...."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/10/11/navy-p ... rier-tests