New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 02:07
by Dragon029
I was alerted to a post on a DCS forum where a guy who claims to work for Lockheed has shared some news from the LM intranet - based on the text and graphics, it looks legitimate to me:

Image

There is a new look coming to the F-35 later in the year! With a sleeker, more uniform coating system, F-35s are saving time in Aircraft Final Finishes (AFF) and saving dollars. The design and new look didn’t happen overnight, but rather was the effort of many people over the last five years.

In 2012, James Thistle came to Fort Worth from F-22 in Marietta as the Production Operations Senior Manager in AFF. He quickly recognized the need for improving the throughput of AFF, which at the time was operating at almost double the scheduled span and cost budgeted for the area. After pitching a potentially significant opportunity to his then-director, Tom Carrubba, now vice president of Aeronautics Quality Transformation and Enterprise Integration, he was able to gain the initial support for changing the engineering design, coatings material and the application process used in AFF.

“What resulted in the end was several days of span time saved in AFF and one of the most positively impactful affordability projects on the F-35 to date. It saves significant hours per unit, defects and rework and improves the aircraft sustainability in the field. It also changes the exterior look of the aircraft to a more uniform coating,” said Carrubba.

“The Aircraft Finishes configuration required the preparation and applications of various materials, which aesthetically appear as jig saw panes of various shades of gray across doors, panels and control surface edges. The manufacturing process to yield a complying product are extremely labor intensive and requires unique skill sets and more so concentrated attention to detail, which meant more labor and processing span in AFF," said Thistle. "Despite the immense efforts amongst the F-35 Finishes organizations, the process often yielded escapes and as a result contributed towards the organizations number one driver for quality defects."

The idea to optimize the process by eliminating multiple masking operations and the need to manually hand spray various top coats by using robotic application during the final top coat application; or “Z13” overcoat as it is more commonly known, was conceived. The project will reduce the cost of an F-35A by $16,000 per aircraft and will save $49 million in the total life of the program.

Chad Wemyss, Delivery Operations Manufacturing Engineering (ME) manager, has been working on the project since picking it up as AFF ME Lead in 2012. “This has been one of the most intense collaboration efforts I’ve taken part in. It has involved several years of testing by the Signature Integration and Materials and Processes (M&P) teams, as well as close teamwork with Production Operations, Finishes Engineering, Sustainment, the Affordability team, the F-35 Program Office and the customer, Joint Program Office (JPO). There have been a lot of stakeholders with different aspects of project inputs and requirements and keeping the whole thing moving forward has been challenging, but also extremely rewarding,” he said. The team kept with it and the results were evident when AF-104, the test aircraft for this project, finished its final coatings in AFF. Implementation of the change is expected in the 2nd quarter of 2017.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 02:46
by Corsair1963
Does the New Coating lower the RCS of the F-35. Over the existing aircraft???

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 03:27
by Dragon029
Unknown; seems to primarily be a sustainment + manufacturing efficiency improvement, but it's been in the works for 5 years. It should at least make it easier to maintain a low RCS when deployed.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 06:03
by Corsair1963
Dragon029 wrote:Unknown; seems to primarily be a sustainment + manufacturing efficiency improvement, but it's been in the works for 5 years. It should at least make it easier to maintain a low RCS when deployed.



Sound good in either case. As long as RCS doesn't increase......

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 06:43
by neptune
Corsair1963 wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:Unknown; seems to primarily be a sustainment + manufacturing efficiency improvement, but it's been in the works for 5 years. It should at least make it easier to maintain a low RCS when deployed.



Sound good in either case. As long as RCS doesn't increase......


The nemesis to stealth manufacturing is fit and finish. Most ot these production rejects are failures of fit and finish affecting the RCS. This looks to be a superior job of F&F, kudos to these patriots and to L&M.
:)

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 12:48
by gtg947h
Thread is worthless without pics :devil:

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 13:31
by Dragon029
There's a picture at the top - that light, somewhat monotone grey jet is what they're going to look like.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 15:47
by mixelflick
I like the new look. It appears slimmer/not as "stubby" IMO. Although it'll never look "mean" so to speak, it is growing on me when looked at from certain angles.

These days though, it's more about what's under the hood. And on that score, the F-35 has no rivals. Not even the F-22! It's absolutely amazing, the amount of fuel, weapons and sensors they've packed into this little jet. I must say, 18,000lbs is an incredible amount of internal fuel, and when your realize it uses only one engine - the legs on it is really phenomenal.

If the reports from pilots are correct, it has quite the range advantage vs. today's F-15 and 16's. That'll be important, particularly in the South China Sea scenario...

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 17:43
by gtg947h
Dragon029 wrote:There's a picture at the top - that light, somewhat monotone grey jet is what they're going to look like.

Ah.

Work firewall is blocking it, then...

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 17:49
by krorvik
Gah. And I just spent two nights masking a model, using all variants of Tamiya tape... Oh well, need to get another ;)

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 18:57
by BELA
Perhaps the detail remains the same but the lighter tape color is just now matching the darker base? cant imaging the panel lines and screws changing. monotone is definitely the word that comes to mind now.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 19:40
by krorvik
That grey on the top one looks more like the FS36270 on the current RNoAF vipers, possibly a tad darker...?

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 19:48
by archeman
krorvik wrote:Gah. And I just spent two nights masking a model, using all variants of Tamiya tape... Oh well, need to get another ;)


But now you'll have a (soon to be) rare F-35 'Classic' Paint Scheme

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 20:05
by BELA
mixelflick wrote:I like the new look. It appears slimmer/not as "stubby" IMO. Although it'll never look "mean" so to speak, it is growing on me when looked at from certain angles.

.



I think it actually does look mean. from the front and back it looks like a muscular pit bull that has really short cropped ears. compared to the more elegant look of the raptor.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 21:31
by krorvik
archeman wrote:But now you'll have a (soon to be) rare F-35 'Classic' Paint Scheme


Troo dat :) Besides, I like the zigzags. Wasn't easy finding the right mix of acrylics though.

Anyway, kudos to the team for wringing out saved $ - and simpler maintenance. Bird still looks beastly. And I mean that in a good way.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2017, 23:49
by quicksilver
archeman wrote:
krorvik wrote:Gah. And I just spent two nights masking a model, using all variants of Tamiya tape... Oh well, need to get another ;)


But now you'll have a (soon to be) rare F-35 'Classic' Paint Scheme


Given they've DD-250'd over 200 jets...not so rare.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2017, 08:07
by Dragon029
The news has been confirmed in the latest (albeit dated 13th of April 2017) General Manager weekly update: https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a6 ... _13_17.pdf

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 01:58
by aw2007
Dragon029 wrote:I was alerted to a post on a DCS forum where a guy who claims to work for Lockheed has shared some news from the LM intranet - based on the text and graphics, it looks legitimate to me:

Image

There is a new look coming to the F-35 later in the year! With a sleeker, more uniform coating system, F-35s are saving time in Aircraft Final Finishes (AFF) and saving dollars. The design and new look didn’t happen overnight, but rather was the effort of many people over the last five years.

In 2012, James Thistle came to Fort Worth from F-22 in Marietta as the Production Operations Senior Manager in AFF. He quickly recognized the need for improving the throughput of AFF, which at the time was operating at almost double the scheduled span and cost budgeted for the area. After pitching a potentially significant opportunity to his then-director, Tom Carrubba, now vice president of Aeronautics Quality Transformation and Enterprise Integration, he was able to gain the initial support for changing the engineering design, coatings material and the application process used in AFF.

“What resulted in the end was several days of span time saved in AFF and one of the most positively impactful affordability projects on the F-35 to date. It saves significant hours per unit, defects and rework and improves the aircraft sustainability in the field. It also changes the exterior look of the aircraft to a more uniform coating,” said Carrubba.

“The Aircraft Finishes configuration required the preparation and applications of various materials, which aesthetically appear as jig saw panes of various shades of gray across doors, panels and control surface edges. The manufacturing process to yield a complying product are extremely labor intensive and requires unique skill sets and more so concentrated attention to detail, which meant more labor and processing span in AFF," said Thistle. "Despite the immense efforts amongst the F-35 Finishes organizations, the process often yielded escapes and as a result contributed towards the organizations number one driver for quality defects."

The idea to optimize the process by eliminating multiple masking operations and the need to manually hand spray various top coats by using robotic application during the final top coat application; or “Z13” overcoat as it is more commonly known, was conceived. The project will reduce the cost of an F-35A by $16,000 per aircraft and will save $49 million in the total life of the program.

Chad Wemyss, Delivery Operations Manufacturing Engineering (ME) manager, has been working on the project since picking it up as AFF ME Lead in 2012. “This has been one of the most intense collaboration efforts I’ve taken part in. It has involved several years of testing by the Signature Integration and Materials and Processes (M&P) teams, as well as close teamwork with Production Operations, Finishes Engineering, Sustainment, the Affordability team, the F-35 Program Office and the customer, Joint Program Office (JPO). There have been a lot of stakeholders with different aspects of project inputs and requirements and keeping the whole thing moving forward has been challenging, but also extremely rewarding,” he said. The team kept with it and the results were evident when AF-104, the test aircraft for this project, finished its final coatings in AFF. Implementation of the change is expected in the 2nd quarter of 2017.


I don't think they're using a lighter shade of gray for the "new look" coating. What we are seeing is probably the effects of lighting. making the paint appears lighter. Check out the pics of the Israeli F-35 roll out and you will see the same lighting effects:

http://aviationweek.com/defense/lockhee ... es-1471901

http://aviationweek.com/defense/lockhee ... es-1471901

http://aviationweek.com/defense/lockhee ... es-1471901

What do you guys think ? It appears to me that they are using a darker gray to paint the jig saw panels to match the color of the rest of the fuselage so the overall finish will appear more uniformed

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 02:41
by Dragon029
While the lighting is different, as I understand it, the light-grey seams are a tape rather than a coating; as such this line wouldn't make sense if that was what was changing:

The idea to optimize the process by eliminating multiple masking operations and the need to manually hand spray various top coats by using robotic application during the final top coat application; or “Z13” overcoat as it is more commonly known, was conceived.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 11:57
by aw2007
Dragon029 wrote:While the lighting is different, as I understand it, the light-grey seams are a tape rather than a coating; as such this line wouldn't make sense if that was what was changing:

The idea to optimize the process by eliminating multiple masking operations and the need to manually hand spray various top coats by using robotic application during the final top coat application; or “Z13” overcoat as it is more commonly known, was conceived.


Ok, if those are tapes they put on the edges of the panels then what you said makes sense. I tend to agree with what BELA remarked earlier that the panels are not likely to change but the new finish will have one tone instead of 2 or 3 shades of gray to give a more uniformed look. In this case, the zig zag panel lines will still be visible up close, but with the same color as the rest of the jet ? What BELA wrote

"Perhaps the detail remains the same but the lighter tape color is just now matching the darker base? cant imaging the panel lines and screws changing. monotone is definitely the word that comes to mind now."

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 16:27
by Dragon029
What I was trying to point out is that the only thing that's changed is a sprayed-on coating, which means that it is the panels (rather than the tape) which has changed its shade of grey. Either way, we'll see soon enough what the new coating looks like.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2017, 17:34
by krorvik
aw2007 wrote:I don't think they're using a lighter shade of gray for the "new look" coating. What we are seeing is probably the effects of lighting. making the paint appears lighter.


There are a lot of pictures around where you see light and reflection giving the panel line bands a darker look than the main color too - probably an effect of different matteness and different angles and reflecions. I'm doing a 1/32 model, and it really takes quite a few checks of reference pictures to get it right....

So yeah, light can fool the eyes with ease.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2017, 16:02
by aw2007
krorvik wrote:
aw2007 wrote:I don't think they're using a lighter shade of gray for the "new look" coating. What we are seeing is probably the effects of lighting. making the paint appears lighter.


There are a lot of pictures around where you see light and reflection giving the panel line bands a darker look than the main color too - probably an effect of different matteness and different angles and reflecions. I'm doing a 1/32 model, and it really takes quite a few checks of reference pictures to get it right....

So yeah, light can fool the eyes with ease.


Things can get complicated when you have fifty shades of gray LOL

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2017, 16:23
by krorvik
It's not that surprising though, the F-35 is designed to be hard to observe at other wavelengths too ;)

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 10:55
by aw2007
Dragon029 wrote:What I was trying to point out is that the only thing that's changed is a sprayed-on coating, which means that it is the panels (rather than the tape) which has changed its shade of grey. Either way, we'll see soon enough what the new coating looks like.


Ladies and gents,
Apparently, 15-5134 is one of the newer jet that sports the new look and coating:


https://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=46187 ... six-months

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 11:32
by spazsinbad

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 14:56
by sferrin
Heh, I was headed up north a few days ago on the highway, heard a jet go ripping over head, and looked up just in time to see a Hill F-35 fly across my sun-roof. :drool: Wish I still lived up that way so I could see the jets every day.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 16:51
by wolfpak
Has to be the most boring paint job on any U.S. aircraft! Makes the F-15E look glamorous!

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 22:32
by steve2267
wolfpak wrote:Has to be the most boring paint job on any U.S. aircraft! Makes the F-15E look glamorous!


Dunno how much the paint job figures into the VLO of the F-35... but if I were an F-35 pilot, I'd rather be invisibile, than glamorous...

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 23:27
by ricnunes
steve2267 wrote:
wolfpak wrote:Has to be the most boring paint job on any U.S. aircraft! Makes the F-15E look glamorous!


Dunno how much the paint job figures into the VLO of the F-35... but if I were an F-35 pilot, I'd rather be invisibile, than glamorous...


LoL yeah :mrgreen:

The "Flying Circus" in WWI was surely "glamorous" with their "paint schemes" but yet no-one else (or no other military unit) ever dared or desired to replicate their "paint schemes" :mrgreen:

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Oct 2017, 23:43
by sferrin
steve2267 wrote:
wolfpak wrote:Has to be the most boring paint job on any U.S. aircraft! Makes the F-15E look glamorous!


Dunno how much the paint job figures into the VLO of the F-35... but if I were an F-35 pilot, I'd rather be invisibile, than glamorous...


Hey, don't knock it. Nobody would ever see THIS in the sky :lmao: :

su-35-S-2.jpg

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 30 Oct 2017, 00:07
by wrightwing
sferrin wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
wolfpak wrote:Has to be the most boring paint job on any U.S. aircraft! Makes the F-15E look glamorous!


Dunno how much the paint job figures into the VLO of the F-35... but if I were an F-35 pilot, I'd rather be invisibile, than glamorous...


Hey, don't knock it. Nobody would ever see THIS in the sky :lmao: :

su-35-S-2.jpg

Heck, at 50nm, that design allows you to simply disappear into background.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 23 Oct 2019, 17:45
by doge
I'm wondering where to post, so I'll post here.

Now, The interval time until LO coating maintenance needs is 19 hours!! :shock: wow (Looong)
How does it compare to other stealth aircraft? Looks like a pretty long time to me!! 8) 19h!! (Extremely durable.)
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... id-461721/
Lockheed declares F-35 stealth coating ‘rock solid’
23 October, 2019 SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com BY: Greg Waldron
Lockheed Martin has defended both the stealth coatings of the F-35A and its efforts to boost the supply of spare parts, as it eyes the conclusion of three fighter campaigns in 2020 and lower operating costs.
While 2019 has been a relatively trouble-free year in the programme’s long history, reports have emerged regarding concerns about the durability of its low-observable coatings at high speeds, as well as continued issues with spare parts availability.
Speaking at the Seoul International Aerospace & Defence Exhibition (ADEX) in October, Steve Sheehy, F-35 director sustainment strategies and campaigns, acknowledged that there was an issue that required the replacement of rain erosion tape on the fighter’s leading edges, but that the coating itself is “rock solid”.

“It’s a generational jump from previous stealth aircraft,” he says.
Lockheed’s F-35 factory in Fort Worth, Texas, has a doormat made from the jet’s low-observable skin. “Every year they pick it up and check it, and it still holds that LO quality,” Sheehy says.
Steve Over, director international business, adds: “It’s seen tens and tens of thousands of steps. People jump on it, stomp on it... it’s just one thing we use to prove the durability of the coating system.”

More importantly, they contend, the coating is easily applied in the field and requires no environmental control facility as with previous versions of stealth aircraft. Lockheed says the interval between maintenance events for the F-35’s low-observable coating is now 19h – better than the targeted 9h.

On the issue of spares, which has proven a challenge as F-35 numbers have grown, Sheehy says that standard practice formerly involved issuing contracts for individual jets before contracts for spare parts.
“[This meant] spares are constantly chasing the aircraft, driving a problem with supply. We’ve fixed that, putting over $2 billion of our own money to fund all these spare parts. So, in 2020 when an aircraft arrives, the spares will already be in place. That will fix that problem. The spares will be populated for those airframes.”
Over adds that 2021 will be an important year for the F-35, with competitions in Canada, Finland and Switzerland likely to be decided. There are also considerable longer-term opportunities.
“There are a lot of potential markets,” says Over. “We’re in conversations with countries in Europe who are thinking about recapitalising old fleets. None of them have matured to the point that [countries such as] Finland, Switzerland and Canada have, but there is definitely a market well into 2030 and beyond for nations recapitalising fourth-generation fleets.”
Meanwhile, Over notes that the F-35 programme continues to see falling airframe costs, as discussions continue on low-rate initial production blocks 12, 13 and 14, covering a combined 478 of the stealth aircraft.
“We have not finalised the exact dollar amount for each of the airplanes in [production lots] 12, 13 and 14, but we and the US government have agreed that [the cost of a] Lot 13 airplane will start with a seven, and lot 14 will be even cheaper. We continue down the price curve, and we haven’t reached bottom yet. We'll be below $80 million for an F-35A in Lot 13.”

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 24 Oct 2019, 07:16
by gc
China will be trying their very best to steal that door mat

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2019, 21:53
by archeman
Lockheed declares F-35 stealth coating ‘rock solid’
23 October, 2019 SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com BY: Greg Waldron
Lockheed Martin has defended both the stealth coatings of the F-35A

“It’s a generational jump from previous stealth aircraft,” he says.
Lockheed’s F-35 factory in Fort Worth, Texas, has a doormat made from the jet’s low-observable skin. “Every year they pick it up and check it, and it still holds that LO quality,” Sheehy says.

More importantly, they contend, the coating is easily applied in the field and requires no environmental control facility as with previous versions of stealth aircraft. Lockheed says the interval between maintenance events for the F-35’s low-observable coating is now 19h – better than the targeted 9h.



It looks like Lockheed management continues to focus on comparing the F-35 service cost and labor time to "previous stealth aircraft". While there is some merit to this, it doesn't really help in head to head competitions where the F-35 isn't facing "previous stealth aircraft". It is facing a small herd of well sorted out 4th gen+ aircraft.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 28 Oct 2019, 22:28
by quicksilver
I agree that the metrics are vague and largely meaningless. Is this number for scheduled events or unscheduled events; what is the MTTR for said events? Kentucky windage helps a little here — if the monthly utilization rate is 25hrs (avg), that means they have about one lo maint event/month on avg. That’s really good given the nicks and scrapes that can occur regardless of aircraft type.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 15:55
by mixelflick
BELA wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I like the new look. It appears slimmer/not as "stubby" IMO. Although it'll never look "mean" so to speak, it is growing on me when looked at from certain angles.

.



I think it actually does look mean. from the front and back it looks like a muscular pit bull that has really short cropped ears. compared to the more elegant look of the raptor.


More than any other fighter IMO, the F-35's "mean" look.... depends. For example, in this pic the F-35 on the ramp looks pudgy, brick like and decidedly non-threatening. The F-35 taking off though looks positively deadly, threatening and futuristic IMO. Compare that to something like the SU-35 which looks like a coiled Cobra from any angle, or the X-32 "Monica" - which was fugly any way you looked at it!

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2019, 09:22
by hornetfinn
archeman wrote:
Lockheed declares F-35 stealth coating ‘rock solid’
23 October, 2019 SOURCE: FlightGlobal.com BY: Greg Waldron
Lockheed Martin has defended both the stealth coatings of the F-35A

“It’s a generational jump from previous stealth aircraft,” he says.
Lockheed’s F-35 factory in Fort Worth, Texas, has a doormat made from the jet’s low-observable skin. “Every year they pick it up and check it, and it still holds that LO quality,” Sheehy says.

More importantly, they contend, the coating is easily applied in the field and requires no environmental control facility as with previous versions of stealth aircraft. Lockheed says the interval between maintenance events for the F-35’s low-observable coating is now 19h – better than the targeted 9h.



It looks like Lockheed management continues to focus on comparing the F-35 service cost and labor time to "previous stealth aircraft". While there is some merit to this, it doesn't really help in head to head competitions where the F-35 isn't facing "previous stealth aircraft". It is facing a small herd of well sorted out 4th gen+ aircraft.


I think in that case this was well justifiable as 4th gen aircraft really don't have similar coating as stealth aircraft. So when talking about LO coating maintenance requirements, only valid comparisons are previous stealth aircraft (at the moment). When talking about other maintenance requirements, I agree that it must be compared to 4th gen fighters as that's the only comparison that matters. I think that's also what they have done actually.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 07:58
by marauder2048
quicksilver wrote:I agree that the metrics are vague and largely meaningless. Is this number for scheduled events or unscheduled events; what is the MTTR for said events? Kentucky windage helps a little here — if the monthly utilization rate is 25hrs (avg), that means they have about one lo maint event/month on avg. That’s really good given the nicks and scrapes that can occur regardless of aircraft type.


I wouldn't think MTTR would be the relevant metric since there's not really a fault isolation/triaging component
that would be a source of variability. Maybe more like "on-condition" maintenance.

The relative comparison of interest would be the maintenance intervals for the RCS
reduction techniques on the Super Hornet.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 12:25
by quicksilver
“...there's not really a fault isolation/triaging component that would be a source of variability.“

As I understand it there actually is — for example, along the lines of the difference between fixing an ‘edge’ (someone drives a tug into one of those weapons bay doors like we see in the pic above), versus cleaning up several small spots of hangar rash. Different degree of difficulty or ‘level of effort’ (my words) and potentially more down time on one versus the other.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2019, 15:34
by quicksilver
“I think in that case this was well justifiable as 4th gen aircraft really don't have similar coating as stealth aircraft. So when talking about LO coating maintenance requirements...”

I would be inclined to understand what the overall dmmh/fh would be for one aircraft versus another, regardless of ‘generation’. All aircraft have maintenance requirements unique to that specific aircraft; how much time, effort, and cost are required to take care of the thing? I remember when the Hornet first showed up. It was a revelation in dmmh/fh as well as relative ease of effort.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2019, 17:38
by mixelflick
Hey, don't knock it. Nobody would ever see THIS in the sky :lmao: :

The attachment su-35-S-2.jpg is no longer available
[/quote]

I'm not sure why, but the Russians seem to have better/more diverse paint schemes than their US counterparts. Take for example these camo patterns on the SU-57. I find them very unique, even if I'm not sure they're effective.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2019, 18:43
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:Hey, don't knock it. Nobody would ever see THIS in the sky :lmao: :

su-35-S-2.jpg

I'm not sure why, but the Russians seem to have better/more diverse paint schemes than their US counterparts. Take for example these camo patterns on the SU-57. I find them very unique, even if I'm not sure they're effective.

Better at what? Low observabiilty? Low visual signature? Low maintenance?

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2019, 19:22
by quicksilver
I’m curious about the dome-shaped device on the fuselage centerline aft of the cockpit.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2019, 20:27
by zhangmdev
quicksilver wrote:I’m curious about the dome-shaped device on the fuselage centerline aft of the cockpit.


That is a 101KS-O directional infrared countermeasures, another one below the cockpit, facing downward.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 29 Nov 2019, 23:21
by steve2267
mixelflick wrote:I'm not sure why, but the Russians seem to have better/more diverse paint schemes than their US counterparts. Take for example these camo patterns on the SU-57. I find them very unique, even if I'm not sure they're effective.


So first you say "seem to have better..." then you add "not sure they're effective."

Which is it?

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2019, 14:07
by mixelflick
steve2267 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I'm not sure why, but the Russians seem to have better/more diverse paint schemes than their US counterparts. Take for example these camo patterns on the SU-57. I find them very unique, even if I'm not sure they're effective.


So first you say "seem to have better..." then you add "not sure they're effective."

Which is it?


Both.

To my eye, they seem to be better/more effective. But I'm just a civilian/casual observer, so unsure as to the actual effectivness of said camo schemes...

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2019, 16:11
by steve2267
mixelflick wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I'm not sure why, but the Russians seem to have better/more diverse paint schemes than their US counterparts. Take for example these camo patterns on the SU-57. I find them very unique, even if I'm not sure they're effective.


So first you say "seem to have better..." then you add "not sure they're effective."

Which is it?


Both.

To my eye, they seem to be better/more effective. But I'm just a civilian/casual observer, so unsure as to the actual effectivness of said camo schemes...


Oh, ok. It read to me as if you were saying "they are better" and "they are not effective".

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2019, 17:52
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I'm not sure why, but the Russians seem to have better/more diverse paint schemes than their US counterparts. Take for example these camo patterns on the SU-57. I find them very unique, even if I'm not sure they're effective.


So first you say "seem to have better..." then you add "not sure they're effective."

Which is it?


Both.

To my eye, they seem to be better/more effective.


I'm curious about why do you think that the Su-57 camo schemes are or should be more effective than for example the camo scheme of the F-35 (or other US aircraft like the F-22)?
I'm asking this because by looking at the pictures that you previously shared it seems to me that the Su-57 camo schemes offer a much bigger contrast against the background (or most backgrounds) this when compared to for example the F-35 camo/paint schemes and as such being "less effective" for the intended purpose (which is to provide "camouflage").

IMO, I can only see one kind of background where those Su-57 camo schemes could offer some advantages which would over Arctic regions (and therefore a minority among Earth's surfaces/terrains).

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2019, 23:45
by squirrelshoes
Given SU-57s will mainly be performing in air shows I'm sure the fancier camo is suitable.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 01 Jan 2020, 15:51
by XanderCrews
squirrelshoes wrote:Given SU-57s will mainly be performing in air shows I'm sure the fancier camo is suitable.



yup.

isnt it odd, that the F-35, F-22, and SH all have big orders and everyone said especially F-35 that they're built for war, but Russian aircraft are built to do good at airshows, look pretty and try attract attention and orders? isn't that weird?

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2020, 15:37
by mixelflick
I'm curious about why do you think that the Su-57 camo schemes are or should be more effective than for example the camo scheme of the F-35 (or other US aircraft like the F-22)?
I'm asking this because by looking at the pictures that you previously shared it seems to me that the Su-57 camo schemes offer a much bigger contrast against the background (or most backgrounds) this when compared to for example the F-35 camo/paint schemes and as such being "less effective" for the intended purpose (which is to provide "camouflage").

IMO, I can only see one kind of background where those Su-57 camo schemes could offer some advantages which would over Arctic regions (and therefore a minority among Earth's surfaces/terrains).[/quote]

In several photos I've seen, they appear to blend into the background better. In a few others, not so much so I suppose it's where you're flying...

As to the "built for war" point that was brought up... a lot more goes into it. I think civilian and even some military leadership are always going to be impressed by airshow stunts. One would hope any civilian leader would leave the final recommendation to his pilots, but that's probably not always the case.

I think the world looks at US combat aircraft as the Rolls Royce of what they can buy. We certainly aren't the lowest cost option though (in most cases), that's for sure. That, coupled with real world results in various conflicts probably drives most of the buys. Also, Russia doesn't seem to have 1.) as many relationships and 2.) as tightly knit relationships with various countries the US does.

They will emphasize a cheaper pricetag, but the old adage usually rings true: You get what you pay for..

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2020, 19:01
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:In several photos I've seen, they appear to blend into the background better. In a few others, not so much so I suppose it's where you're flying...


Well in most of the photos/paint schemes that I've seen I don't see the aircraft (Su-57) blending better against the background being it a ground or air backgrounds. There's could be exceptions (like the Arctic that I previously mentioned) but then again those would be exceptions and not the rule.
But then again, I guess that this could be one of those things like the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".


mixelflick wrote:I think the world looks at US combat aircraft as the Rolls Royce of what they can buy. We certainly aren't the lowest cost option though (in most cases), that's for sure. That, coupled with real world results in various conflicts probably drives most of the buys. Also, Russia doesn't seem to have 1.) as many relationships and 2.) as tightly knit relationships with various countries the US does.

They will emphasize a cheaper pricetag, but the old adage usually rings true: You get what you pay for..


Actually I disagree a bit with that assessment above (US combat aircraft being the "Rolls Royce" of combat aircraft).
IMO, combat aircraft must first be looked into a Western and Eastern perspective, this even before looking at the aircraft being from X or Y country individually.

So if you want to buy Western, this due to several reasons such as the following:
1- Due to geopolitical alliances/politics.
2- And, due to Western Aircraft almost always having more advanced avionics and sensors.

Then you'll have 2 "sub-options":
1- Buy from the USA
2- Or, buy European

From the 2 (two) sub-options above the cheaper option is usually (not always granted but usually nonetheless) buying from the USA.
So buying from the USA is in this perspective and again IMO, hardly a "Rolls Royce choice".

Of course that buying Russian is usually (I would even say: but perhaps not always) cheaper than buying Western, including from the USA and of course from any European country. But then again, this "cheaper option" comes with the following costs:
1- These combat aircraft usually (if not almost always) come with inferior avionics and sensors.
2- Usually requires a more complex and expensive maintenance.
3- It puts somehow the purchasing country farther away in political terms from the US and West.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2020, 18:11
by mixelflick
Yes, I would agree with most of that. I guess when I said "rolls royce" I was thinking more along the lines of avionics and well, craftsmanship. The avionics are pretty self explanatory, we seem to be a generaton ahead of the Russian birds (I didn't consider European aircraft, which was a mistake). On the craftsmanship, western aircraft seem to be more uniformally built. Meaning once you get past the first 3rd of Russian aircraft (going nose to tail), the last 2/3rds show sloppy welding etc.. lOn Western aircraft, the rivets etc. are consistent, nose to tail.

The F-35 has the smoothest look, it's really beautiful (especially from the bottom, IMO). Sets it apart as something new something different...

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2020, 18:48
by sprstdlyscottsmn
mixelflick wrote:
The F-35 has the smoothest look, it's really beautiful (especially from the bottom, IMO). Sets it apart as something new something different...


Shots of them flying belly up look like the flow of water over rocks. Beautifully shrink wrapped curves around the inlets and munitions.

Re: New coating & look for F-35s coming later this year

Unread postPosted: 03 Jan 2020, 19:06
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:Yes, I would agree with most of that. I guess when I said "rolls royce" I was thinking more along the lines of avionics and well, craftsmanship. The avionics are pretty self explanatory, we seem to be a generaton ahead of the Russian birds (I didn't consider European aircraft, which was a mistake). On the craftsmanship, western aircraft seem to be more uniformally built. Meaning once you get past the first 3rd of Russian aircraft (going nose to tail), the last 2/3rds show sloppy welding etc.. lOn Western aircraft, the rivets etc. are consistent, nose to tail.

The F-35 has the smoothest look, it's really beautiful (especially from the bottom, IMO). Sets it apart as something new something different...


Oh, I see.
With "Rolls Royce" I was thinking more into the lines of being a 'luxury' (costly/very expensive/for the very rich only) and not about craftsmanship. As such I definitely misunderstood your post, sorry.

So, yes in that regard I certainly agree with you.