Atlantic Trident [F-35A Participation Block 2B restriction]

F-35 unit & base selection, delivery, activation
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playloud

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 16:35

Dragon029 wrote:When did you first view the article? When I posted it above it didn't have any ratios and refreshing it just now there aren't any ratios.

Within the last hour or two. Clear your browser cache maybe?

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white_lightning35

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 16:39

Pls be true and and undeniable. It would bring much joy to me and much butthurt across the interwebs. I'm worried that the USAF will have to put up a statement so as to not create a mess politically.
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doge

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 16:42

steve2267 wrote:The Rafale / Typhoon were probably hauling bags of gas... so highly unlikely their RCS was down around 0.1 m^2. Your interpretation seems very reasonable to me.

I think so too. Thank you very much!

Dragon029 wrote:According to the article, 230km was the range at which it was tracking those jets as well, implying that its detection range would have been >300km for the same (I'm also inclined to say ~1m^2) targets.

F-35 looks more powerful! :shock: (I created a graph again.)
APG-81 range forecast-2.jpg
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steve2267

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 16:47

wrightwing wrote:Apparently the kill ratios for the F-35 were 18:0 vs Rafale, 19:0 vs Typhoon, and 16:1 vs F-15E.


But it can go 1.8 Mach with 3 external fuel tanks!

If you're gonna get clubbed like a baby seal... might as well do it with style!
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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wrightwing

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:07

From the article in Greek.

"Το αποτέλεσμα ήταν 18-0 απέναντι στο Rafale και 19-0 απέναντι στο Eurofighter και 16-1 απέναντι στα F-15E."
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wrightwing

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:13

As for whether the Typhoon/Rafale were carrying EFTs, that's not clear. In previous exercises, I know they stripped Typhoons down, to give every advantage (i.e. Germans vs F-22.) If this is the case here, the F-35 is even more dominant than previously imagined.
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doge

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:14

Το αποτέλεσμα ήταν 18-0 απέναντι στο Rafale και 19-0 απέναντι στο Eurofighter και 16-1 απέναντι στα F-15E.

I found a page where I can see this!
http://www.pronews.gr/amyna-asfaleia/ae ... -se-epikes
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hythelday

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:16

Two things:

1) It's consistent with what LM/JPO was saying and USAF/USMC showed during their exercises. Impressive, but not entirely unexpected
2) It also a second hand (at best) RUMINT that comes from a Greek article that obviously has an agenda (arms race with Turkey).

This isn't something that i'd throw around as a credible source for the sake of professionalism.
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armedupdate

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:19

hythelday wrote:Two things:

1) It's consistent with what LM/JPO was saying and USAF/USMC showed during their exercises. Impressive, but not entirely unexpected.

Did they say something this overwhelming? Citations?
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bigjku

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:23

So basically what happened is exactly what we expected to happen and that Euro fans denied would happen. Canards came in, couldn’t see what was where, got shot not knowing and all their kinematics didn’t matter. Will be funny watching the dual owners with an interest in Eurofigter production try to spin things going forward.
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hythelday

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:24

armedupdate wrote:
hythelday wrote:Two things:

1) It's consistent with what LM/JPO was saying and USAF/USMC showed during their exercises. Impressive, but not entirely unexpected.

Did they say something this overwhelming? Citations?


Red Flag 2017, Northern Lightning 2016 A2A performance for USAF, USMC's Bees interdicting targets at Green Flag 2016 (or was it 2015?) with zero losses to "high end SAMs". Let me look up the links for a minute.

EDIT:

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=52283

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=52238&p=376070&hilit=+northern+edge#p376066 (Spud refers to this video: https://livestream.com/wab/tailhook2017 ... /162471073)

Also this, @55:30:
Last edited by hythelday on 09 Oct 2017, 18:02, edited 3 times in total.
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armedupdate

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:30

bigjku wrote:So basically what happened is exactly what we expected to happen and that Euro fans denied would happen. Canards came in, couldn’t see what was where, got shot not knowing and all their kinematics didn’t matter. Will be funny watching the dual owners with an interest in Eurofigter production try to spin things going forward.

Kinda destroys the IRST fanboys who think the camera can make locks at 100 km.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:33

We also have to understand that we don't know all the details about the exercises, such as Red Flag. I would assume they try to make it challenging for both sides, so if the f-35 isn't taking any losses they aren't pushing it hard enough. We don't have a clue that this is an accurate source, either. I very much hope it is, mostly because of the gnashing of teeth, rage, and excuses that will proliferate across the interwebs.
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Dragon029

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 17:41

For some reason the article remains the same even after I cleared my cache on Chrome - I opened it up and translated in Firefox though, and now I can see the updated page.

Also I agree that I wouldn't throw this article around at this point as a credible source; I tried tweeting it at a couple of reporters at Defense News & Aviation Week; also The Aviationist seeing as they have an emphasis on Europe - that tweet in particular was actually 'liked' by David Cenciotti, but that like has since disappeared :doh:

My hope is that someone with connections is able to ask around and either unofficially confirm it (eg how AvWeek was able to 'confirm' that the fallen ex-F-35 pilot was in the Red Hats at the time of the incident), or perhaps put up a tweet or something (Cenciotti might put up a full page on his site) denying it.
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wrightwing

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Unread post09 Oct 2017, 18:25

white_lightning35 wrote:We also have to understand that we don't know all the details about the exercises, such as Red Flag. I would assume they try to make it challenging for both sides, so if the f-35 isn't taking any losses they aren't pushing it hard enough. We don't have a clue that this is an accurate source, either. I very much hope it is, mostly because of the gnashing of teeth, rage, and excuses that will proliferate across the interwebs.

In Red Flag, the F-35s were always outnumbered 3:1, and the adversaries could regenerate 4x (or as many times as they had fuel for.) The SAM threat was 5x higher in terms of sheer numbers, than had been previously used, and with more modern threats. The problem isn't that they aren't making exercises hard enough, to be a challenge. It's that they can't make exercises hard enough, to be a challenge. There simply aren't enough Red Air assets available, to increase the F-35 losses. Additionally, it wouldn't provide much training value, other than if faced with 100:1 odds, the F-35 will take losses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, to figure that out.
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