Atlantic Trident [F-35A Participation Block 2B restriction]

F-35 unit & base selection, delivery, activation
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neptune

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Unread post12 Oct 2017, 18:24

steve2267 wrote:...Not disagreeing with what you have stated. However, all the articles I read made a point that the exercise was conducted to develop and refine TTPs (training(?), tactics, and procedures) for integrating 5th gen aircraft with 4th gen aircraft, especially with partner nations. So pitting Typhoons & Rafales against F-35s would seem to go against the stated purpose of the exercise. Whether an additional (unstated) purpose was for the French and English to experience going up against a "stealth" aircraft (e.g. PAK-FA and/or J20), or the French and English requested it, I don't know.

....to summarize; enjoying the benefits of 5gen/stealth allies and exposing the experience of 5gen/stealth opponents!
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optimist

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Unread post12 Oct 2017, 19:08

steve2267 wrote:
optimist wrote:We don't know the details of the exercise, but the f-22 and f-35 RCS is classified. Both would have flown in foreign air space with lens.


Atlantic Trident 2017 was hosted by the 1st TFW @ Langley (Viriginia - USA)... so I'm fairly certain the exercise was flown in US airspace. No reason to have the Luneberg reflectors installed there, correct?

Or are you saying the F-35 was flown with the Luneberg reflectors installed to prevent the French from gaining real insight into the F-35 RCS from this exercise?

If so... one would think the F-15E's of AT2017 Red Air to have done better? On the other hand, Red Air still had to contend with Raptors, so F-35's could have been flown non-stealthy. I dunno. It just seems strange to be taking off for an exercise with a Luneberg reflectors installed.

my bad. With foreign air forces. I really can't see this exercise the one where they fly the f-22 without a lens, they do so in every exercise and sometimes run tanks. It's classified and they wouldn't want data getting out. The f-35 is also classified. They may use the ROE and radar gain and predetermined detection range. even when on the radar, it doesn't count if it's further than the ROE range. In exercises everyone run their radars in detuned modes anyways. From what I've read, it's all very 'need to know' stuff. As with every event, it's a training exercise for air forces to learn from each other in cooperative engagements.
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mas

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Unread post13 Oct 2017, 10:32

I would say that the Greek account of extracurricular encounters between the participants is more likely to be true than not. Firstly all the numbers he gave out were very specific and if he was pumping up the F-35 for anti Turkish reasons why say it lost one against the F-15E ? These unofficial dogfights happen all the time which we only get to hear about when participants start leaking info and there is a French report of Atlantic Trident which stated that on the first day the aircraft practiced among themselves before the official exercise began.

http://www.opex360.com/2017/04/12/le-ra ... dent-2017/

The French, American and British crews will quickly get to the heart of the matter, with a first day of practice dedicated to "Basic Fighting Manœuvers", with oppositions in one against the other.
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steve2267

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Unread post13 Oct 2017, 13:41

mas wrote:I would say that the Greek account of extracurricular encounters between the participants is more likely to be true than not. Firstly all the numbers he gave out were very specific and if he was pumping up the F-35 for anti Turkish reasons why say it lost one against the F-15E ? These unofficial dogfights happen all the time which we only get to hear about when participants start leaking info and there is a French report of Atlantic Trident which stated that on the first day the aircraft practiced among themselves before the official exercise began.

http://www.opex360.com/2017/04/12/le-ra ... dent-2017/

The French, American and British crews will quickly get to the heart of the matter, with a first day of practice dedicated to "Basic Fighting Manœuvers", with oppositions in one against the other.


I guess my only rebuttal to your argument is that the article stated all the "kills" were BVF with the F-35 detecting Rafale / Typhoon / F-15E from hundreds of km away and firing at max AMRAAM range. This implies time to fly hundreds of km away, and gas to get there. Would they have had that much time and "spare" gas for that much "extracurricular" activities? I am not intending to be argumentative here as much as I am trying to apply some critical thinking as to whether this could have occurred?
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mas

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Unread post13 Oct 2017, 13:46

Well if they had complete day(s) set aside for practice/familiarisation like say the first and maybe last I don't see why not. The article I quoted said they did BFM practice against themselves not the aggressor squadrons.
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steve2267

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Unread post13 Oct 2017, 13:52

mas wrote:Well if they had complete day(s) set aside for practice/familiarisation like say the first and maybe last I don't see why not.


So to get the numbers the story quoted... they would have needed what... 4-5 BVR "setups" which you believe would be doable in a day? OK, I guess I could buy that if they had a whole day.

Followup question: the story states *all* the F-35 kills were BVR and that no Typhoons or Rafales got within 30km of a Lightning. But other articles state that the first day was for BFM (i.e. WVR) work. Were the F-35's not there on day 1? (I can't recall.) That is... I would have thought this Greek article would have called out BFM/WVR results if it had all that other information about the BVR results. That is to say, I would have expected some Rafales and more probably Typhoons to have killed some Lightnings WVR, and THAT would have been newsworthy, but we don't hear anything like that in the Greek story.
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Unread post19 Oct 2017, 07:02

steve2267 wrote:Thinking some more about this foreign news article (Greek?), I did some more googling of "Atlantic Trident 2017". From a bunch of search hits, I found:

Atlantic Trident 17 brought together in type and capability the most formidable combination of fighter aircraft ever assembled. by Tod Miller 1 May 2017

We Flew Red Air against F-22 Raptors, F-35 Lightning IIs, Rafales and Typhoons in Atlantic Trident ’17. Here’s How It Went. by Tod Miller 5 May 2017

Flying Against the F-22 and F-35 (Why America's enemies should pay attention to the Atlantic Trident 17 exercise.) by Dave Majumdar 1 May 2017

Atlantic Trident Brian W. Everstine August 2017

Not a single mention in any of these articles about Rafale and/or Typhoon flying against the F-35. So I am going to temper my enthusiasm for this article, and for using it as a source for having fun with Cavok in the Rafale vs the World thread.

What is rather disappointing, though, is how a "journalist" like Majumdar gets "invited" to fly with the Red Air Agressors in a Talon, grudgingly admits the F-35 more than held its own, but then has the temerity to write the phrase "that even the F-35 with its mediocre kinematic performance." I guess it's all relative. F-22 is clearly top dog with the Typhoon nipping at its heels in some WVR BFM scenarios. So if the F-35 has "mediocre kinematic performance" I guess F-16, Rafale, F/A-18 all have "mediocre kinematic performance." If that's the case, then, it would be "fair" or "intellectually honest" to apply the same descriptive phrase to the other aircraft.


FYI- Todd Miller is a photojournalist......and a good one. Yet, he is hardly an expert in the field. http://www.flyfastandlow.com/home.html
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