The Germans are coming!

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

hythelday

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 276
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:43

Unread post14 Jan 2018, 01:12

I've said in some thread before, but I'll repeat it:

The hang-up is in B61s.

F-35A will carry it - fact.
The Netherlands has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable F-16)
Italy has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable Tornado)
Turkey is still poised to get F-35A.
Belgium is still deciding, but IMO it is super certain they are going to get F-35A.
This leaves Germany at the crossroads: get F-35A as per Luftwaffe requests and because retaining B61 lets slack on conventional armed forces OR pick EF2000 because it's good for the industry and reap political benefits from expelling B61from Büchel AB.
I am willing to bet six-pack worth of money Germans won't pay for/won't allow nuke integration on Typhoon. Which means that by choosing either jet we'll get a hint on what their standing on dual key bombs is.
Offline

nutshell

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 437
  • Joined: 04 May 2016, 13:37

Unread post14 Jan 2018, 04:09

hythelday wrote:I've said in some thread before, but I'll repeat it:

The hang-up is in B61s.

Italy has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable Tornado)
.


We don't have nukes tho.
Offline

h-bomb

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 249
  • Joined: 26 Apr 2009, 20:07
  • Location: South Central USA

Unread post14 Jan 2018, 04:48

nutshell wrote:
hythelday wrote:I've said in some thread before, but I'll repeat it:

The hang-up is in B61s.

Italy has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable Tornado)
.


We don't have nukes tho.


Odd per your former Prime Minister and President you do have some US nukes. Both Aviano and Ghedi have B61', estimated to be 70 to 90 in country.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Frances ... e&ie=UTF-8
Offline

nutshell

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 437
  • Joined: 04 May 2016, 13:37

Unread post14 Jan 2018, 14:47

h-bomb wrote:
nutshell wrote:
hythelday wrote:I've said in some thread before, but I'll repeat it:

The hang-up is in B61s.

Italy has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable Tornado)
.


We don't have nukes tho.


Odd per your former Prime Minister and President you do have some US nukes. Both Aviano and Ghedi have B61', estimated to be 70 to 90 in country.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Frances ... e&ie=UTF-8


Around 70s, but it's US stuff operated by US personnel.

We technically banned the "atom" in 1986.
Offline

h-bomb

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 249
  • Joined: 26 Apr 2009, 20:07
  • Location: South Central USA

Unread post15 Jan 2018, 01:14

Ok Nutshell, you claim Italy is nuclear free, but your press does not agree with you...

2007: http://www.lastampa.it/2007/09/15/itali ... agina.html
2013: https://www.panorama.it/news/oltrefront ... ri-italia/

I have references to Italy getting rid of its "Native" weapons programs. The weapons in Italy are under US control and security, even at Ghedi where the US has no aircraft. This way the weapons are NPT compliant, as the US owns and controls the weapons still.
Offline

nutshell

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 437
  • Joined: 04 May 2016, 13:37

Unread post16 Jan 2018, 01:35

h-bomb wrote:Ok Nutshell, you claim Italy is nuclear free, but your press does not agree with you...

2007: http://www.lastampa.it/2007/09/15/itali ... agina.html
2013: https://www.panorama.it/news/oltrefront ... ri-italia/

I have references to Italy getting rid of its "Native" weapons programs. The weapons in Italy are under US control and security, even at Ghedi where the US has no aircraft. This way the weapons are NPT compliant, as the US owns and controls the weapons still.


I know we host nuclear weapons, peaking around 95 warheads at some point, but it's still US owned weapons that we might not be able to operate anymore and god knows if we really could back in the cold war era.

We opted in the JSF program because it's an exceptional machine, the presence of b61 warheads is irrelevant when the bird is so much much much better then anything you got.

Btw if the m5s wins the election, chances are we will withdraw from the nuclear sharing initiative.
Offline
User avatar

neptune

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2885
  • Joined: 24 Oct 2008, 00:03
  • Location: Houston
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post24 Jan 2018, 04:24

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/12 ... n-germany/

Spat over the F-35 bubbles up in Germany


By: Sebastian Sprenger  
December 12, 2017

COLOGNE, Germany ―
German Defence Ministry leaders have distanced themselves from their Air Force chief, Lt. Gen. Karl Muellner, over his appetite for the F-35, as at least one lawmaker suspects intrigue seeping into the debate. Deputy Defence Minister Ralf Brauksiepe clarified Monday that the government views the Eurofighter as the “primary” option for replacing the country’s fleet of Tornado jets in 2025. The U.S.-made F-15E, the F/A-18E/F and the F-35 are considered only as “secondary” choices, he wrote in a letter. The missive, first reported by Reuters on Monday and independently obtained by Defense News, comes after Muellner said last month he prefers the stealthy F-35 because of its advertised capability to attack targets from so far away that pilots can stay out of the danger of combat.

A review of all aircraft options would be made in a “wholistic context,” Brauksiepe added, a likely nod to the expectation that political and cost considerations could end up trumping operational capabilities. Brauksiepe’s response is consistent with previous statements by ministry officials, often made privately, who have cringed at Muellner’s outspoken support for the Lockheed Martin-made F-35. Exactly how much sway the Air Force will have in a final decision remains to be seen. Those here opposed to choosing the F-35 argue that the advent of that aircraft in Germany could endanger German-French plans for an entirely new plane, announced to much fanfare in July. Leaders from both countries consider that project an important part of the vision for greater military prowess of the European Union.
:)

....and the beat goes on!
:roll:
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1450
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post24 Jan 2018, 04:32

By the time the FrancoHessians cobble together a 5th gen demonstrator, if their relationship doesn't splinter into an ugly divorce, the US will probably have already produced a 6th gen PACA (or whatever) and be moving on towards a 7th gen...

but hey, JOBS!!!

At least they are not claiming they are shovel ready! :roll:
Take an F-16, add a dollop of A-7, a big gob of F-22, sprinkle on some AV-8B, stir well, then bake. What do you get? An F-35.
Offline
User avatar

neptune

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2885
  • Joined: 24 Oct 2008, 00:03
  • Location: Houston
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post24 Jan 2018, 04:57

steve2267 wrote:By the time the FrancoHessians cobble together a 5th gen demonstrator, if their relationship doesn't splinter into an ugly divorce, the US will probably have already produced a 6th gen PACA (or whatever) and be moving on towards a 7th gen...but hey, JOBS!!! At least they are not claiming they are shovel ready! :roll:


....one would hope that somehow the UE folks could come to terms with a jobs swap?? thingee for the Italian FACO to crank out the required Tornado replacements! trading VAT or carbon credits or whatever economic BS that motivates pols. I could see France and Germany getting into the high-tech F-35 subsytems that could lead them to future international aviation contributions. I doubt we will see in the near future any sole French or German a/c, muchless anything they would attempt to joint venture! IMHO
:)
Offline

hythelday

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 276
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:43

Unread post25 Jan 2018, 19:49

A prime example is the decision that Berlin needs to take soon on the succession of its Tornado aircraft, ... The Tornado succession is likely to lead to a debate about nuclear deterrence, including calls to abandon nuclear sharing. This rather technical issue is likely to turn political and risks unsettling the new German government, which is likely to be a fragile grand coalition and not at all comfortable in dealing with such issues.


http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurop ... 9jRkNkdSJ9
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 20556
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post08 Mar 2018, 15:41

Nuclear burden-sharing dictates that Germany acquire the F-35
08 Mar 2018 Dan Goure

"Nuclear deterrence is again at the forefront of strategic planning issues — not only for the United States but also its major allies, particularly the members of NATO....

...The Trump administration’s Nuclear Posture Review illustrates from an American standpoint the long-standing view that a strong, cohesive nuclear alliance is the most effective means of deterring aggression and promoting peace and stability in the Euro-Atlantic region. Deterrence, particularly of nuclear attack, is dependent on deploying and maintaining credible and effective military capabilities.

In addition, the sharing of responsibility for the storage and delivery of tactical nuclear weapons among member countries is a key aspect of NATO’s strategic deterrent. NATO’s arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons consists entirely of air-delivered B61 gravity bombs. Currently, in addition to U.S. forward-based fighters, five NATO countries — Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey — host tactical nuclear weapons, and all of these but Turkey have dual-capable aircraft dedicated to their delivery.

For Germany’s part, the new government faces a major defense procurement decision with serious consequences not only for that country’s security but the future of NATO. The German Air Force, the Luftwaffe, must decide within the next several years on a replacement for its fleet of some 70 Tornado fighters. These aircraft need to be retired starting in 2025....

...Fifth-generation aircraft, currently the American-built F-22 and F-35, have capabilities that make them particularly suitable for missions involving countering advanced air defenses. Also, in recent Red Flag exercises, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter achieved a 15-to-1 air-to-air kill ratio against a variety of fourth-generation aircraft. These are the major reasons why three U.S. military services and the U.K., Italy, Norway, Canada, the Netherlands and Turkey, NATO members all, have already committed to acquiring the F-35. Belgium is currently examining several options to replace its F-16s, including the F-35.

Some number of F-35As, the version being acquired by the U.S. Air Force and several NATO allies, will be modified with the wiring and other gear to enable them to carry the B61. Current plans call for a nuclear-capable F-35A to be fielded in the early 2020s. This timeline would meet the Luftwaffe’s schedule for retiring its Tornado fighters...." [READ ALL at URL]

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... -the-f-35/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

wil59

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 164
  • Joined: 05 May 2015, 09:50

Unread post08 Mar 2018, 19:55

spazsinbad wrote:
Nuclear burden-sharing dictates that Germany acquire the F-35
08 Mar 2018 Dan Goure

"Nuclear deterrence is again at the forefront of strategic planning issues — not only for the United States but also its major allies, particularly the members of NATO....

...The Trump administration’s Nuclear Posture Review illustrates from an American standpoint the long-standing view that a strong, cohesive nuclear alliance is the most effective means of deterring aggression and promoting peace and stability in the Euro-Atlantic region. Deterrence, particularly of nuclear attack, is dependent on deploying and maintaining credible and effective military capabilities.

In addition, the sharing of responsibility for the storage and delivery of tactical nuclear weapons among member countries is a key aspect of NATO’s strategic deterrent. NATO’s arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons consists entirely of air-delivered B61 gravity bombs. Currently, in addition to U.S. forward-based fighters, five NATO countries — Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey — host tactical nuclear weapons, and all of these but Turkey have dual-capable aircraft dedicated to their delivery.

For Germany’s part, the new government faces a major defense procurement decision with serious consequences not only for that country’s security but the future of NATO. The German Air Force, the Luftwaffe, must decide within the next several years on a replacement for its fleet of some 70 Tornado fighters. These aircraft need to be retired starting in 2025....

...Fifth-generation aircraft, currently the American-built F-22 and F-35, have capabilities that make them particularly suitable for missions involving countering advanced air defenses. Also, in recent Red Flag exercises, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter achieved a 15-to-1 air-to-air kill ratio against a variety of fourth-generation aircraft. These are the major reasons why three U.S. military services and the U.K., Italy, Norway, Canada, the Netherlands and Turkey, NATO members all, have already committed to acquiring the F-35. Belgium is currently examining several options to replace its F-16s, including the F-35.

Some number of F-35As, the version being acquired by the U.S. Air Force and several NATO allies, will be modified with the wiring and other gear to enable them to carry the B61. Current plans call for a nuclear-capable F-35A to be fielded in the early 2020s. This timeline would meet the Luftwaffe’s schedule for retiring its Tornado fighters...." [READ ALL at URL]

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... -the-f-35/
////
why not this, France is a member of the NATO as well and can provide the means of nuclear deterrence too and it is already operational http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/asmpa/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-Sol_M ... ort%C3%A9e
Online

loke

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 492
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 19:07

Unread post09 Mar 2018, 21:41

The steel tariffs imposed by Trump will probably not make the German politicians more positive to the F-35....

Unless Trump is changing his tune Germany will go for more Typhoons.

The world is rapidly unravelling.
Offline

vilters

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 737
  • Joined: 28 Sep 2009, 00:16

Unread post09 Mar 2018, 22:46

Toink, toink, toink,
That's me falling over.
Germans are not stupid you know.
2 Disasters is more then enough. (Tornado and Tiffy)
Offline

lbk000

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 130
  • Joined: 04 May 2017, 16:19

Unread post09 Mar 2018, 23:29

vilters wrote:2 Disasters

"Not stupid" you say

Fool me once...
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gideonic, loke and 10 guests