New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2007, 14:49
by Sundowner
Since today Polish government is interested in participating in JSF program.

Polish air force is based around Su-22 Fitter, and MiG-29 Fulcrum. First jet have only three-four years of service, second will perform it tasks till 2016. If the Fulcrums won’t go thru extensive modernization program, after 2016, Polish Air Force will end up only with 48 F-16C/D-52+ (that will achieve fully operational status in year 2012).

According to Polish Ministry of Defense, Poland need total number of 120 combat aircrafts, which means it soon will be 72 planes short. Solution to that problem is acquiring new airplanes. The airplane Poland is interested in is the F-35A Lightning II. But Poland not only want to buy the airplanes, we want to participate in whole JSF program. The plans are to buy 40-60 new strike fighters.

RE: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2007, 18:14
by skrip00
I agree. But can they afford it?

I would love Poland to have a whole boatload of F-35s... just to piss the Russians off. :)

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2007, 20:48
by Sundowner
If I remember correctly the sign-in fee to JSF program was something around 50-120 mln USD , that is not much. The problem would be with the final buy. I don't think buying 60 F-35s at once will be possible. But if we have decision now, we will have money to buy 34 in 2015-17, and another 2x16 or 34 few years later, when MiGs will be definitely out of service, and number of Vipers will be down (it is a great aircraft, but s... things happen ;) ).

The one pissed of will not be the Russians - they're pissed by things like NMD missile silos :wink: . The Belarus is another story, when we bought Vipers, they bought few S300 SAM systems, and modernization of its Su-27 and MiGs is in discussion.

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2007, 23:02
by skrip00
Ohh, F-35s will piss off the Russians. A neighbor with advanced stealth tactical aircraft? Add to that JSOWs? Yep, they'll sh*t themselves over it.

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 12:33
by Driver
Russians were also veeery pissed when Latvia and such joined NATO and NATO started patroling with its fighters over those countries.

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 18:36
by Pilotasso
The gripen is something more down to Earth Poland could afford.

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 19:51
by Sundowner
We already have multirole fighter capable of more missions than Gripen (SEAD), do you want us to make a step back ? :wink:

What's the point of buying new different jet that is doing the same job in the same way ? If make a step, let it be forward, into 'stealth' technology.

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 20:37
by skrip00
The only logical solution I see is buying F-16 Block 60s with AESA radars to round out their Air Force's numbers. Then maybe buying 1 squadron of F-35s. Its the cheapest solution, but it also gets them some F-35s. They just need to put their best pilots into the F-35s.

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 20:59
by Sundowner
Those Block60s are not cheap, 80mln USD per airframe is not much less than for F-35. Not to mention F-16 production line will be soon closed. Plus - the more F-35 we'll get, the lower maintenance costs will be, especially when there will be only two types of aircrafts - the F-35 and F-16-52, than with three types - F-35, F-16-52 and F-16-60 (that one have GE engines).

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 21:12
by skrip00
Sundowner wrote:Those Block60s are not cheap, 80mln USD per airframe is not much less than for F-35. Not to mention F-16 production line will be soon closed. Plus - the more F-35 we'll get, the lower maintenance costs will be, especially when there will be only two types of aircrafts - the F-35 and F-16-52, than with three types - F-35, F-16-52 and F-16-60 (that one have GE engines).


True... but how much will the F-35A cost per copy? And how many can Polska afford?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 21:13
by dwightlooi
Sundowner wrote:Those Block60s are not cheap, 80mln USD per airframe is not much less than for F-35. Not to mention F-16 production line will be soon closed. Plus - the more F-35 we'll get, the lower maintenance costs will be, especially when there will be only two types of aircrafts - the F-35 and F-16-52, than with three types - F-35, F-16-52 and F-16-60 (that one have GE engines).


It all depends on how soon Poland wants new fighters. The F-16/60 is available NOW. If ordered, it can be delivered in a year or two. The F-35 will not be deliverable to a late comer to the party like Poland before 2016 (Brits and Aussies have basically sucked up all the early delivery slots).

The Block 60 does not have to be GE engined. That is entirely up to the customer. In fact, most block 60 items like the new cockpit and EW suite is also available without the internal IRST or APG-80 AESA. The conformal tanks are optional too. The Block 52++ ordered by Singapore I believe has the conformal tanks and Block 60 cockpit, but not the AESA radar or the GE engines. In short, you don't have to choose between "blocks" really, you just have to choose from a set of equipment options to match your budget and/or requirements.

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 21:29
by Sundowner
Well like I wrote earlier, we need new planes after 2016, so the availability is not that much of a problem, the same with money, if we'll get into the JSF program, got a cost and delivery date, than the money will be found for that buy. And like I wrote, not all 60 at once.

Of course we do have a lot of expenses waiting in near future - we need new SAMs (for base protection the Norwegian NASAMS system will be bought and probably Patriot for other tasks), new transport and attack helicopters, new corvetes for the navy, etc. etc. But these are next 4-6 years, still a lot of time till 2016.

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 21:43
by skrip00
How will Poland fund all this?

What is Poland's current economic situation?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 22:17
by Sundowner
I'm not economist, all I can say that the situation is improving, and the military gets more money each year.

In the last 4 years we bought the F-16, wheeled APCs, begin work on our corvette (ORP Gawron), the 'Krab' mobile howitzer, and 'Loara' mobile twin 35mm AAA system are ready and serial production is planed, we modified ZSU-23-4, ZSU-23-2 and 'Osa' systems to standards that make Russians green ;)

I really have no idea where we get money for all of this :)

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2007, 23:35
by skrip00
Well, I hope they continue improving. I'd love for them to become a modern military power, and to remain a good friend of the USA. :)

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 10:32
by Pilotasso
Sundowner wrote:We already have multirole fighter capable of more missions than Gripen (SEAD), do you want us to make a step back ? :wink:

What's the point of buying new different jet that is doing the same job in the same way ? If make a step, let it be forward, into 'stealth' technology.


Its not a step back. It may be lighter and carry less payload but its a particularly smart plane. It could be used for air Defense where it could carry the meteor, and its lighter weight wouldnt matter much because it can carry as many of the same A-A weapons of the F-16 but with a smaller radar Signature.

Not only that but it would make much more sense to have a plane that is better in one thing complemented by another that is better at another thing, not 1 that is much more expensive and better in all things to make the already existent F-16 fleet redundant.

I wouldnt mind to see the falcon fleet in my country Replaced by the Gripen, as long as its the best avaiable version of it and with a weapons package to match.

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 11:06
by dwightlooi
Pilotasso wrote:Its not a step back. It may be lighter and carry less payload but its a particularly smart plane. It could be used for air Defense where it could carry the meteor, and its lighter weight wouldnt matter much because it can carry as many of the same A-A weapons of the F-16 but with a smaller radar Signature.

Not only that but it would make much more sense to have a plane that is better in one thing complemented by another that is better at another thing, not 1 that is much more expensive and better in all things to make the already existent F-16 fleet redundant.

I wouldnt mind to see the falcon fleet in my country Replaced by the Gripen, as long as its the best avaiable version of it and with a weapons package to match.


Actually, I don't know how much of a difference the RCS between the two are. The F-16 is about 1~1.5m class. The Gripen is at best 0.5~1m class. That is not much really, not enough to affect detection ranges significantly, especially with all the pylons and external weapons adding their not insignificant share to the total signature.

The f-16 has a larger radar aperture compared to the Gripen's smallish 500mm class PS/05. The F-16 radar antenna has roughly 1.5 times surface area of the Gripen's. This affects the radar's range as well as sensitivity. There is every reason to believe that contemporary APG-68(v)9/10s will outperform the PS/05. Regardless of the F-16 or the Gripen's own RCS a more powerful radar allows you to detect and engage enemies at a longer range. And this is not to mention that the APG-80 AESA is available now whereas the PS/05 AESA successor is still a big question mark.

The Gripen is also shorter on range and payload. With about 18000 lbs of thrust pushing a 6.6 ton fuselage its power to weight ratio (hence things like acceleration, etc) is also behind the advanced F-16 variants with its 8.3~8.7 ton weight and 29,000~32,000 lbs engines. I doubt the dynamic performance differences matter much though.

The Gripen's biggest advantage is its superior datalink architecture. This supports networking, data sharing and co-operative engagements better than the NATO standard Link-16. The problem is that this is a proprietary standard which is supported only by other Swedish equipment which a client may not have and may not intend to ever use. The Gripen can also play Link-16, but in doing so it also loses all the capabilities not available in the F-16's Link-16 based system. The F-22 has exactly the same problem. In fact, in the early days it was even worse because the F-22 only supported its own standard and not Link-16 at all until more recent software builds. The F-35 will again introduce yet another generation of datalink architecture which is different from the F-22s, but at least this time backup Link-16 is supposed to be integrated from day one.

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 12:30
by Sundowner
First a total war in central Europe is very unlikely, but, history likes to repeat itself. Our potential enemy's have lot's of Flankers armed with R-27, and soon never generation R-77. Configuration of both the carrier and armament are really deadly, Su-27 can see first and shoot first against both F-16 and JAS-39. Buying another jet that will need to begin fight from defensive position is foolish at least.

F-35 will have enough stealth to fly well into Flankers engagement zone unnoticed, fire their missiles, wrecking havoc in enemy formations, leaving them prone to finishing strike from less technologically advanced Vipers. Thats the composition we need.

Sorry the 39 lost its fight to F-16 already, there is no need for another multirole fighter, what we need is stealthy strike fighter, or really good air superiority fighter, the 39 is not one of them.

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 15:27
by Driver
Now I heard something about the F-16 being better then the gripen, wont throw arguments at you but shame on you.

Polands Economy is growing very fast even for global standards, ditto for the Czech Rep. etc. so affording something like that shouldn't be a big deal in the future.

Also the F-16 Block 60 is 80 mln NOW but when the F-35 comes out, it would be ALOT lower due to the fact that the F-35 is more capable, Im sorry to say but the F-16 (even the 60) won't be competetive for very long (and Im a big F-16 fan... but a realistic one and not one who denies something hoping that it will become the truth) for Poland, and any EU nation for that matter, I think a European jet is the way to go. One day EU nations will have to so the sooner the better.

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 17:30
by elp
The real question is how is going to be paid for? The F-16 deal for Poland had a huge amount of offsets both direct and indirect. The JSF is a different purchase model. Vendors for most of the components have been picked already and those are JSF partners. Poland has not signed up as a JSF partner and is also too late to get any production contracts for JSF. The JSF program for the most part is based on "best value" contracts and not the traditional political graft of "offsets", hence some politicians in JSF partner countries whinning about a contract their country signed expecting "offsets". So the real question for Poland is: "How are they going to pay for JSF?" ; with no traditional "offset" type of purchase agreement.

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 17:50
by Sundowner
I think F-16-60 is so expensive, because it is the swan song of that aircraft, the best it can be, and the last to come. If India take MiG-35, than the F-16 will simply die. The successor is flying, soon will be in serial production, most air forces that would buy the Viper now, are in JSF program as active, or passive member. The Block 60 will not get cheaper, if the production line get closed, than in 8 years it will go only higher.

European jet... I wouldn't mind a Typhoon Tranche 3 or Rafale F3, but these will by available in the future... probably. Not to mention that if they will go to production, they will cost as much as Lightning II. The choice is simple.

We have Panther target pods - the same components will be in F-35.
We have signed contract with P&W, their engines are in F-35.
We have F-16s - F-35 is its natural successor.

The introduction and maintenance costs will be the smallest with F-35.

For the F-16C/D-52+ we pay 80mln USD per airframe, because of introduction costs - we have to buy new maintenance equipment, modify our bases, train people etc. etc. Most of what we are spending money today will work for F-35, so the cost per airframe will be lower to us than for example to Australia.

Oh boy, I gave you lots of reasons why we want that particular aircraft, let's add one more: it is the only gen.5 aircraft that we can both afford and US is willing to sell to us :wink:


@ elp, that part need to be discussed, but I don't think it will be any problem. Like I wrote in first post, our Ministry of Defense said it is the aircraft we want and we'll try to get into the program - what we could do for it, when, for how much etc etc. - thats up for discussion with the program members.

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 19:14
by Pilotasso
Sundowner wrote:First a total war in central Europe is very unlikely, but, history likes to repeat itself. Our potential enemy's have lot's of Flankers armed with R-27, and soon never generation R-77. Configuration of both the carrier and armament are really deadly, Su-27 can see first and shoot first against both F-16 and JAS-39. Buying another jet that will need to begin fight from defensive position is foolish at least.

F-35 will have enough stealth to fly well into Flankers engagement zone unnoticed, fire their missiles, wrecking havoc in enemy formations, leaving them prone to finishing strike from less technologically advanced Vipers. Thats the composition we need.

Sorry the 39 lost its fight to F-16 already, there is no need for another multirole fighter, what we need is stealthy strike fighter, or really good air superiority fighter, the 39 is not one of them.


Poland is not a global player. Besides russias R-27 missiles severly lack in reliablity not to mention that those missiles been suplanted for almost 20 years. While the flanker is an overal more powerfull fighter the Gripen is smarter, muscle over brain and muscle looses. Russia has nothing to match a meteor, while you can argue that the meteor is not yet operational russia hasnt even have anything going to match it. By the time meteor enters the flanker will be severly outgunned even by the nimble Gripen.

On another note just because Poland has a great economic growth rate doesnt mean it can go on purchase frenzy. Actual economic standards are something entirely different (Believe me I know, my country has gone through the same and look at us now...still poor :D ), and in my view Poland is still too much empoverished to buy something like F-35 without immensly favourable (unlikely) offset deals.

Gripen is still much more a sane purchase to go even if its not ideal, but then again what ideal deals can you make for little money? ;)

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 20:13
by Sundowner
hehe, don't underestimate the muscle :wink:

If you enter a battle where the enemy have at least twice as much planes, and 4 times more missiles than you, then brain did a miscalculation somewhere before that event :wink:

No matter how old those missiles are, if there are 4 of them coming at you, you're pretty much screwed ;) that forces you to make a move that will throw you into defensive position.

The R-77M is getting close to finishing, when that thing comes to play, the Meteor will not be the solution, especially fired from the 39, Typhoon would be better, it could throw it further away.

No we are not global player, we need just assure our place here, we're well to experienced by history to stand on faith in EU and NATO alone. We need an ace in the sleeve, F-35 is one... F-22 would be better, but who can afford it ?

Offset profits are virtual, you have to be very lucky to have something good from it - Finland Nokia is good example of that, the Polish F-16 deal is not. What could give some profits is cooperation in making such peace of machinery like F-35 is. We're already making a lot of work for Bell, Agusta Airbus, Boeing, Northrop-Grumman and soon Sikorsky. We're also making undercarriage and putting together engines for F-16s we bought... so there is something we could do for F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 21:27
by Pilotasso
Sundowner wrote:hehe, don't underestimate the muscle :wink:

If you enter a battle where the enemy have at least twice as much planes, and 4 times more missiles than you, then brain did a miscalculation somewhere before that event :wink:



You mean a battle where one side has a plane that can target 6 fighters at one time and the other has more planes but that can target only 1 at a time? Im still with the brain ;)

Sundowner wrote:No matter how old those missiles are, if there are 4 of them coming at you, you're pretty much screwed ;) that forces you to make a move that will throw you into defensive position.


What makes you think you will be fired first? What makes you think that with a active radar missiles the brain will keep on flying torwards smi active missiles wich have proven to have about 10% probability of kill?

Make the math... 6 multi attack capability with active missiles versus a superior force that can only fire 1 smi active at a time but only 10% of them capable of hiting anything?

the 10% figure comes from combat records of Su-27's VS Mig-29's in Eritrea VS Ethipia. Consider that any western fighter of the same generation as the gripen is going to be more modern than those export migs and sues thus, even harder to hit, so 10% of PK is a generous figure and the Gripen not so a bad proposal after all.

I dont mean Poland would win (infact it would loose in a total confrontation) but the deterrence here is the key not raw force measurement.

Sundowner wrote:The R-77M is getting close to finishing, when that thing comes to play, the Meteor will not be the solution, especially fired from the 39, Typhoon would be better, it could throw it further away.


R-77M was a project going in the mid 90's. It wont be resumed because it needs to be researched over again to keep up with new technologies. It has been stated that russians want a completely new missile with a new seeker different of current R-77's wich have disapointing perfomance according to russian own designers (you can imagine what is "disapointing perfomance" on western standards then!)
Even if the new missile gets to be named as R-77M it will be a differtent project (much like mid 90's Su-35's and the "new" Su-35's russians want to bring operational but wich are infact completely different in terms of avionics)

NOT ONLY THAT but much of the stock of current Russian missiles are examples wich were researched in russia but built in ukranian factories before USSR breakup. So the redesigns has even more to do with having a missile produced in russia than due to the obsolescence of them. That also may explain why R-27's are so falible. They are running short of usefull lifetime FAST, if they aready havent so. (R-77's currently made in russia for the handfull of Su-27SM's are now called RVV-AE's, unsure about what the differences are, if any)

Unread postPosted: 29 Mar 2007, 22:42
by skrip00
How could LockMart come up with a reason NOT to sell the F-35 to the Polish? You'd think theyd love to have a boatload of sales.

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2007, 09:09
by Thomas_Poland
Sundowner wrote: We're also making undercarriage and putting together engines for F-16s we bought... so there is something we could do for F-35 too.


I hope so, WSK Rzeszow waits for next engines after PW-F100-229 :P

Unread postPosted: 01 Apr 2007, 04:43
by Neotopia
Driver wrote:Now I heard something about the F-16 being better then the gripen, wont throw arguments at you but shame on you.

Polands Economy is growing very fast even for global standards, ditto for the Czech Rep. etc. so affording something like that shouldn't be a big deal in the future.

Also the F-16 Block 60 is 80 mln NOW but when the F-35 comes out, it would be ALOT lower due to the fact that the F-35 is more capable, Im sorry to say but the F-16 (even the 60) won't be competetive for very long (and Im a big F-16 fan... but a realistic one and not one who denies something hoping that it will become the truth) for Poland, and any EU nation for that matter, I think a European jet is the way to go. One day EU nations will have to so the sooner the better.


WRT the economies of Europe, Europe has done an almost about-face in the last 50 years, with the Eastern countries becoming free-market capitalist countries and the Western powers for the most part becoming overburdened socialist welfare states. The economic growth rate of the Eastern European countries is in the 4-5% range, and western Europe is struggling to manage even 2%. In PPP terms the Polish economy is about the Size of the Dutch economy now; In Nominal Exchange-rates terms it is about Austria's size and nipping at Sweden/Belgium/Switzerland's heels. I'm sure that by 2016 Poland will have sufficient funds to make an F-35 purchase.

On European jets, the truth is outside the Gripen, The Eurofighter and Rafale are really just subsidy programs to insure that Europe's domestic fighter industry doesnt die altogether. For what they do, the Eurofighter and Rafale are both *heavily* overpriced, and they have been losing competitions to US F-teens for a reason.

Now, back to the subject at hand; Poland is fast bcoming one of the US' better allies, I would be very pleased to see the Polish airforce equipped with them in the future.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 20:05
by marsavian
F-35, F-16, F-15, F/A-18, Gripen and Typhoon: These Are The Contenders In The Race To Replace Polish MiG-29 and Su-22 jets. 60 new aircraft to replace the ageing fleet of Polish MiG-29 and Su-22 jets as part of the Harpia program.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/01/18/f ... u-22-jets/

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2019, 22:25
by steve2267
Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2019, 00:12
by spazsinbad
:devil: "...derrier of WVR supremacy?" FIFY :doh:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2019, 01:37
by ricnunes
steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?


Perhaps the Rafale "active stealth" was so darn effective that the Poles weren't able to see it and thus weren't able to shortlist it, LOL :mrgreen:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2019, 02:00
by steve2267
While the Luftwaffe might still have some decent folks left, the German politicians don't seem to give a sh*t. :bang:

Sell the Poles a wing of Lightnings, and move all the B61s from Germany to Poland. That will probably spin up Putin... but might make a good check against further Russian imperialistic ideas. :drool:

Or start a war. :doh:

C'est la vie. C'est la guerre.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2019, 14:49
by mixelflick
Said this in the Singapore thread and I'll say it again: The death spiral for 4 ++ whatever fighters has started. Would you buy an aircraft that costs more and is significantly less capable? Nobody would. Especially when you consider the inter-operability with other NATO countries flying the F-35.

It's started. Singapore,Poland and others (except Pierre Sprey), are seeing the light... :)

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 19 Jan 2019, 17:06
by marsavian
That's why I believe the F-35 production run would exceed F-16 total eventually. All the F-16s around the world will eventually need replacing including new-builds coming off the line now. I can still see evolved variants of F-35 being produced 50 years from now like F-15 is now. Sure PCA will become the new stealth strike Eagle eventually but most airforces will still go for bang for buck and pick the latest stealth lightning panther as their baseline fighter.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 10:13
by barrelnut
Poland wants to buy fifth-gen fighters under $49B modernization program

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... n-program/

Polish Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak announced Thursday he signed a military modernization plan document under which the country will spend 185 billion zloty (U.S. $49 billion) on new weapons and military equipment by 2026.

The acquisition of 32 fifth-generation fighter jets is one of the priority procurements that are to be carried out under the program, the minister said.

“I expect both the chief of the General Staff, and the chief of the Armament Inspectorate to immediately initiate actions to perform this task,” Blaszczak said in a Feb. 28 ministerial statement.

The acquisition aims to help Poland replace its outdated Soviet-era Sukhoi Su-22 and Mikoyan MiG-29 aircraft.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 12:38
by hythelday
But it does not say they want F-35, they want "5th generation" :D

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 14:52
by vilters
Do you know of any other 5th Generation in production?
F-35 is the only one, so he does not even have to mention type.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:34
by botsing
vilters wrote:Do you know of any other 5th Generation in production?

To add to hythelday's meme: Where does it state they want a fifth gen that is in production?

:mrgreen:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 16:28
by fidgetspinner
Just tell Poland the senior designer of the F-35 is Bob """"""Ruszkowksi"""""" that might convince them to purchase more. Either way I can make a safe bet that Poland in the mid 2020s will have more F-35s than the Russians will have SU-57s(even if 2nd stage engines ever came to be) if they are really planning on purchasing 30+ 5th gen fighters

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 16:31
by steve2267
botsing wrote:To add to hythelday's meme: Where does it state they want a fifth gen that is in production?

:mrgreen:


The Poles do not strike me as one's to play around. They say it right here:

barrelnut wrote:
“I expect both the chief of the General Staff, and the chief of the Armament Inspectorate to immediately initiate actions to perform this task,” Blaszczak said in a Feb. 28 ministerial statement.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2019/02/28/poland-wants-to-buy-fifth-gen-fighters-under-49b-modernization-program/


Lacking a plan to steal F-22's from the USAF, I do not see a 20+ year wait for a glimmer in the French, German, and Spanish eyes as counting as immediately... :devil: :mrgreen:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 16:40
by botsing
steve2267 wrote:Lacking a plan to steal F-22's from the USAF, I do not see a 20+ year wait for a glimmer in the French, German, and Spanish eyes as counting as immediately... :devil: :mrgreen:

What about the Chinese?

J-20 "Błyskawica" sounds good no? :twisted:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 16:56
by steve2267
botsing wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Lacking a plan to steal F-22's from the USAF, I do not see a 20+ year wait for a glimmer in the French, German, and Spanish eyes as counting as immediately... :devil: :mrgreen:

What about the Chinese?

J-20 "Błyskawica" sounds good no? :twisted:


Touché! :doh:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 19:00
by optimist
ricnunes wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?


Perhaps the Rafale "active stealth" was so darn effective that the Poles weren't able to see it and thus weren't able to shortlist it, LOL :mrgreen:

I'd be careful about including rafale-f35 is other threads. It makes it harder to encourage them to stay on the rafale thread.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 20:28
by spazsinbad
Best POLISHED Designer: Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz https://forvo.com/word/grzegorz_brz%C4% ... zykiewicz/

American guy and Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc5KBGL0v6Q


Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 02:00
by wrightwing
spazsinbad wrote:Best POLISHED Designer: Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz https://forvo.com/word/grzegorz_brz%C4% ... zykiewicz/

American guy and Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc5KBGL0v6Q


Let's not forget Alexander Graham Bellski, the first telephone Pole.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 21:49
by ricnunes
optimist wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?


Perhaps the Rafale "active stealth" was so darn effective that the Poles weren't able to see it and thus weren't able to shortlist it, LOL :mrgreen:

I'd be careful about including rafale-f35 is other threads. It makes it harder to encourage them to stay on the rafale thread.


Excellent point indeed!
My apologies then :wink:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 05:14
by Corsair1963
Honestly, this is nothing new or even surprising. As Poland has made it clear that it would "likely" acquire the F-35 at some point in the future.



My question is will this influence Finland's selection on a New Fighter?

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 10:38
by magitsu
Corsair1963 wrote:My question is will this influence Finland's selection on a New Fighter?

Unlikely. But it tells about who Poland wants to add geostrategic links to. No idea who decided that Rafale wouldn't appear. It's at least cheaper this way for them to lose early.

Rafale is basically the only plane that offers a real alternative to F-35 if somehow it shouldn't be picked. Different geostrategic choice, different weapons systems, no ITAR.

Certainly SH/G is an alternative if the geostrategic choice would be preferred but F-35 wouldn't work. But that's very unlikely. Political risks are bigger at this point. The trouble is that France isn't really a viable alternative to the US in this regard. Yes the French do a bit of Baltic patrol too, but they really care more about their former digs wherever in the world they are.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 10:53
by Corsair1963
magitsu wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:My question is will this influence Finland's selection on a New Fighter?

Unlikely. But it tells about who Poland wants to add geostrategic links to. No idea who decided that Rafale wouldn't appear. It's at least cheaper this way for them to lose early.

Rafale is basically the only plane that offers a real alternative to F-35 if somehow it shouldn't be picked. Different geostrategic choice, different weapons systems, no ITAR.

Certainly SH/G is an alternative if the geostrategic choice would be preferred but F-35 wouldn't work. But that's very unlikely. Political risks are bigger at this point. The trouble is that France isn't really a viable alternative to the US in this regard. Yes the French do a bit of Baltic patrol too, but they really care more about their former digs wherever in the world they are.



I doubt the Rafale is cheaper than the F-35A. Nor, that Finland would prefer even if it was. Honestly, in my opinion the selection of the F-35 by Poland. Would just increase the odds that Finland would follow...... :wink:


"IMHO"

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 10:55
by magitsu
For Poland deciding to want specifically just 32 "5 Gen" planes makes sense, because they are replacing MiG-29 and Su-22 while continuing to use F-16C/D. Their 48 F-16s are only from 2003.

Rafale's different everything would be stupid given there are already AMRAAM, JASSM etc. in use. For Finland it's a bit different calculation because everything changes anyway (though NASAMS uses AMRAAM and will continue with new jet).

Poland buying F-35 doesn't increase the odds. But if they had bought anything else it could've mattered. There are so many F-35 customers nearby anyway. Norway being the most important, because their state owned Kongsberg owns 49,9% of the Hornet maintainer company Patria (Fi gov 50,1%).

https://www.defence24.pl/mysliwiec-5-ge ... -komentarz

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 10:59
by Corsair1963
magitsu wrote:For Poland deciding to want specifically just 32 "5 Gen" planes makes sense, because they are replacing MiG-29 and Su-22 while continuing to use F-16C/D. Their 48 F-16s are only from 2003.

Rafale's different everything would be stupid given there are already AMRAAM, JASSM etc. in use.

https://www.defence24.pl/mysliwiec-5-ge ... -komentarz



Buying the F-35 would give Poland the same mix as the USAF. (ie F-16/F-35) Which, must be an attractive option on a number of levels.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 11:05
by magitsu
Corsair1963 wrote:Buying the F-35 would give Poland the same mix as the USAF. (ie F-16/F-35) Which, must be an attractive option on a number of levels.

Yeah, here's a google translated quote from that superb Polish defense site.

"We want to buy 32 multi-role aircraft of the 5th generation. I expect immediate action from both the head of the General Staff and the head of the Armament Inspectorate to carry out this priority task. This aircraft is very important as it strengthens the combat capabilities of the F-16s currently in use. We are determined to replace worn out post-Soviet airplanes that have no battle value. The tragic case from last year in which a MiG-29 pilot was killed also makes the Harpia program, the purchase of 5th generation planes, our priority."

- Minister of National Defense Mariusz Błaszczak

The Poles have a bit more ambition than ability currently, which the article also notes.

"The real assessment of the decision to acquire 5th generation aircraft in the Harpia program, or rather specific 5th generation aircraft, will be possible at the earliest when the purchase agreement for 32 fighters is concluded. Until then, we should only observe the MON closely, with the knowledge that the Harpia is just one of many programs that should be implemented urgently or have been delayed for years. At the same time, it will also be one of the few most expensive projects, the value of which in the period 2017-2026 is to amount to PLN 185 billion."

This paragraph is even better at pointing out slightly unreasonable expectations.

"The pace of introducing new machines may also be a problem. It is planned that the Harpia contract will be concluded in 2020 with the delivery of aircraft within 2 years. The real delivery time of the F-35 aircraft, in an optimistic version, is 3 to 5 years from the conclusion of the contract, while the Armament Inspectorate is currently in the analytical and conceptual phase and at least officially has not yet started the contract. As the example of the Vistula program shows, the Harpia negotiations can take a lot of time."

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 14:50
by laos
magitsu wrote: Their 48 F-16s are only from 2003.


First delivery of F-16 to Poland was on 11.11.2006. Last delivery was on 12.12.2008.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 17:13
by magitsu
laos wrote:
magitsu wrote: Their 48 F-16s are only from 2003.


First delivery of F-16 to Poland was on 11.11.2006. Last delivery was on 12.12.2008.

Indeed, only around half of their service life at most.

Another Polish MiG-29 unfortunately crashed today. https://defence-blog.com/news/polish-mi ... keoff.html

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 22:56
by XanderCrews
The poles are going to want to buy American because it strengthens the partnership.

I don't know if I'm recalling correctly but the reason Poland has F-16s was they basically said "if you were willing to sell us those, we would not say no to buying them." and basically bypassed all European options. Poland and Cz Rep were also all too happy to host the US's ABM shield that was canceled, and Poland a few other eastern bloc nations have been vocal on the US establishing bases there. They aren't stupid. Getting US forces there basically creates a kind of "hostage" scenario where Russia can't attack Poland without getting the US directly involved. That's way better than all the treaties and promises and alliances on paper.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 23:35
by hythelday
XanderCrews wrote:Poland and Cz Rep were also all too happy to host the US's ABM shield that was canceled


AEGIS Ashore is being built in Poland.

Poland should establish their F-35 force ASAP, then sell their F-16 fleet while it still has some life in it (looks like there is still a decent market for second-hand Vipers) and double their Lightning force. 64 F-35s would be nothing to sneeze at.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 23:48
by SpudmanWP
Imagine the AEGIS Ashore data-linked to the F-35...

Missile limit, what missile limit? :mrgreen:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 00:29
by spazsinbad
SpudmanWP wrote:Imagine the AEGIS Ashore data-linked to the F-35...
Missile limit, what missile limit? :mrgreen:

excellent

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 08:33
by Corsair1963
SpudmanWP wrote:Imagine the AEGIS Ashore data-linked to the F-35...

Missile limit, what missile limit? :mrgreen:



Same applies to F-35B's and F-35C's based at Sea..... :devil:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 08:34
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:Poland and Cz Rep were also all too happy to host the US's ABM shield that was canceled


AEGIS Ashore is being built in Poland.

Poland should establish their F-35 force ASAP, then sell their F-16 fleet while it still has some life in it (looks like there is still a decent market for second-hand Vipers) and double their Lightning force. 64 F-35s would be nothing to sneeze at.


Odds are the 32 F-35's would be just the first batch for Poland. Like with many other Air Forces.... :wink:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 08:43
by Corsair1963
XanderCrews wrote:The poles are going to want to buy American because it strengthens the partnership.

I don't know if I'm recalling correctly but the reason Poland has F-16s was they basically said "if you were willing to sell us those, we would not say no to buying them." and basically bypassed all European options. Poland and Cz Rep were also all too happy to host the US's ABM shield that was canceled, and Poland a few other eastern bloc nations have been vocal on the US establishing bases there. They aren't stupid. Getting US forces there basically creates a kind of "hostage" scenario where Russia can't attack Poland without getting the US directly involved. That's way better than all the treaties and promises and alliances on paper.



Poland like most Eastern European Countries. Know they need a strong partnership with the US to have any hope of deterring Russian ambitions.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 10:49
by wil59
steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?

The response to your comments on the alleged non-selection of the Rafale is simple assault did not apply. A priori, the call for tenders that will be launched for this purpose by Warsaw does not seem to interest Dassault Aviation, the builder of the Rafale. According to the Polish press, only five companies have expressed the wish to participate in this procedure.

Unsurprisingly, we find the Americans Lockheed-Martin (F-35) and Boeing (F / A-18 Advanced Super Hornet), as well as the consortium Eurofighter (with the Italian Leonardo to the maneuver) and the Swedish Saab ( JAS-39 Gripen E / F). The fifth company is Fights-On Logistic. Based in Warsaw, the latter could supply second-hand F-16s, which would be added to the 48 currently used by Polish aviation.///Once again . Stop saying bullshit on dassault. Inform you before vomiting on the Rafale.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 11:02
by wil59
Corsair1963 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:The poles are going to want to buy American because it strengthens the partnership.

I don't know if I'm recalling correctly but the reason Poland has F-16s was they basically said "if you were willing to sell us those, we would not say no to buying them." and basically bypassed all European options. Poland and Cz Rep were also all too happy to host the US's ABM shield that was canceled, and Poland a few other eastern bloc nations have been vocal on the US establishing bases there. They aren't stupid. Getting US forces there basically creates a kind of "hostage" scenario where Russia can't attack Poland without getting the US directly involved. That's way better than all the treaties and promises and alliances on paper.



Poland like most Eastern European Countries. Know they need a strong partnership with the US to have any hope of deterring Russian ambitions.

Yes, that is why European planes have a very low chance of winning a competition like this one. The US-dominated NATO policy is decisive in the choice of countries for their future planes.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 05:39
by XanderCrews
wil59 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?

The response to your comments on the alleged non-selection of the Rafale is simple assault did not apply. A priori, the call for tenders that will be launched for this purpose by Warsaw does not seem to interest Dassault Aviation, the builder of the Rafale. According to the Polish press, only five companies have expressed the wish to participate in this procedure.

Unsurprisingly, we find the Americans Lockheed-Martin (F-35) and Boeing (F / A-18 Advanced Super Hornet), as well as the consortium Eurofighter (with the Italian Leonardo to the maneuver) and the Swedish Saab ( JAS-39 Gripen E / F). The fifth company is Fights-On Logistic. Based in Warsaw, the latter could supply second-hand F-16s, which would be added to the 48 currently used by Polish aviation.///Once again . Stop saying bullshit on dassault. Inform you before vomiting on the Rafale.


Dassault knew they didn't have a shot as soon as they saw the Gripen on offer.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 07:48
by element1loop
XanderCrews wrote:Dassault knew they didn't have a shot as soon as they saw the Gripen on offer.


Werde! :mrgreen:

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 07:51
by optimist
Who could pass up on Aviation Week's certified, 6th gen Gripen. It's a wonder that even LM didn't pull out.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 07:52
by element1loop
Corsair1963 wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Imagine the AEGIS Ashore data-linked to the F-35...

Missile limit, what missile limit? :mrgreen:


Same applies to F-35B's and F-35C's based at Sea..... :devil:


Add HIMARS LRPF

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 10:16
by wil59
XanderCrews wrote:
wil59 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?

The response to your comments on the alleged non-selection of the Rafale is simple assault did not apply. A priori, the call for tenders that will be launched for this purpose by Warsaw does not seem to interest Dassault Aviation, the builder of the Rafale. According to the Polish press, only five companies have expressed the wish to participate in this procedure.

Unsurprisingly, we find the Americans Lockheed-Martin (F-35) and Boeing (F / A-18 Advanced Super Hornet), as well as the consortium Eurofighter (with the Italian Leonardo to the maneuver) and the Swedish Saab ( JAS-39 Gripen E / F). The fifth company is Fights-On Logistic. Based in Warsaw, the latter could supply second-hand F-16s, which would be added to the 48 currently used by Polish aviation.///Once again . Stop saying bullshit on dassault. Inform you before vomiting on the Rafale.


Dassault knew they didn't have a shot as soon as they saw the Gripen on offer.

hum it will be f18 vs f-35.The games are done for a long time.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 15:04
by mixelflick
optimist wrote:Who could pass up on Aviation Week's certified, 6th gen Gripen. It's a wonder that even LM didn't pull out.


I don't doubt that the Gripen is a lesser aircraft, but I also think it would be a mistake to dismiss it out of hand. Poles are very practical people, and I doubt they're looking for a deep interdiction/OCA/all the latest bells and whistles type aircraft. Something simple, multi-role and "in the ballpark" is going to appeal to them - in much the same way the F-16 did.

As it stands, none of these options are going to be cheap. But an aircraft that can hold its own, fly multiple sorties daily. fulfill DCA/air policing/EW/air to ground and maintained with minimal support/expertise might be just what they're looking for. I'm not sure what the CPFH for the Gripen is, but assume it's on the cheaper side vs. the other competitors.

It would never be an F-35 (or even a SH), but "good enough" to support their NATO obligations IMO.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 15:37
by magitsu
Might want to look it through what capability they are replacing. This article suggests that the Su-22 capability is the first one, with MiG-29 not being as acute.
https://www.defence24.com/mig-29-and-su ... ed-by-2022

In the Polish air force the Su 22s fleet fulfils the role of ground attack and Close Air Support (CAS), reconnaissance and support to naval forces and ground Special Forces, and the sturdy airframes and the mighty and reliable engine make the Fitter particulary suitable for these roles. http://en.aviation-report.com/poland-la ... 2-fitters/

Gripen is among the weakest in A2G, CAS. ISR is also highly coveted, all of which lean toward F-35.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 18:02
by steve2267
If Washington will let the Poles buy the F-35... I do not see why they would purchase the Gripen E/F, or even the F-16V. Used Vipers? Maybe. But with F-35 heading rapidly towards $80M a copy, Gripen's would need to cost around $40M, IMO, to even be attactive. If Gripen's are $60M or more, why bother? Same argument hampers purchasing any new F-16V's.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 18:14
by magitsu
Poles have already sizable resources invested into the F-16 system, so extra aren't on the same level bad as other inferior candidates. They will keep using them, so more of the same but newer (Block 70/V) could make some sense. F-35 on the other hand is a force multiplier approach. Growler's input into the overall system is a big question mark (since it's a new capability instead of the aim of replacing Su-22/MiG-29 capabilities). At least it makes some sense, whereas operating F-16 Block 52+ and just Super Hornet probably wouldn't.

Polish F-16 already has JASSM. So theoretically they could also be the ones going for Su-22's CAS/A2G job if they wanted to. F-35 could do ISR, air quarterbacking the F-16s, SEAD/DEAD.

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 20:49
by spazsinbad
Poland eyes F-35 for Harpia requirement
12 Mar 2019 Bartosz Glowacki

"Warsaw has prioritised its Harpia fighter programme as part of a new technical modernisation plan for its armed forces, while its aged RAC MiG-29s remain grounded following a 4 March crash.

Poland plans to acquire 32 "fifth-generation" aircraft to replace its remaining MiG-29s and a ground-attack fleet of Sukhoi Su-22s. It is believed to be particularly interested in the Lockheed Martin F-35, although other candidates could include the Boeing F-15 or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter consortium's Typhoon and the Saab Gripen E.

Defence minister Mariusz Blaszczak has initiated a process to implement the programme as soon as possible. This will include the appointment of a plenipotentiary to oversee the activity...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-456554/

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 06:04
by spazsinbad
US, Poland to Discuss Potential F-35 Sale, Air Force Secretary Says
13 May 2019 Marcus Weisgerber

"Warsaw’s eagerness to buy the Joint Strike Fighter came up during Heather Wilson’s April visit to Poland.

A U.S. delegation is scheduled to brief Polish defense officials eager to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter later this month, U.S. Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said Monday. The American team is expected to discuss the costs of buying the Lockheed Martin-made jet as well as the warfighting capabilities it would bring to the Polish military.

“They want to deepen their relationship with the United States of America in part by interoperability of advanced equipment,” Wilson said after a Meridian International Center event in Washington. “Those discussions are continuing. We’re providing the information that might be needed for them to make a decision.”...

...Polish officials said they would buy 32 F-35s.

“The Polish government has decided that they want the F-35 and they’re in discussions with the United States,” Wilson said Monday. U.S. officials heading to Poland is a sign that the potential deal is going through the standard foreign military sale process....

...Last month, the F-35 program director listed Poland as a potential purchaser along with Greece, Singapore, Spain, and Romania. Vice Adm. Mat Winer submitted his written testimony to the House Armed Services tactical air and land forces subcommittee.

Later in April, Poland Defense Minister Mariusz Blaszczak told local media that a F-35 deal was “not far away.” While the sale has not been approved by the U.S. State Department, Wilson said it came up when she visited Poland in April....

... For comparison purposes, in January 2018, the Pentagon estimated the sale of 34 F-35s to Belgium at $6.53 billion when all associated costs are factored in...."

Source: https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... 35/156971/

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 14:41
by mixelflick
Good for the Poles then, hope they get the F-35.

The point about wanting US hardware/people in country is a good one. As someone with relatives over there, I can tell you that memories of being under Soviet/Russian rule still run deep. They have a deep rooted distrust (and in some cases, hatred) of the Russians, and do not under any circumstance to want a repeat of being under their thumb.

FUNNY STORY: During the late 80's, we sent a Christmas card to relatives in Poland. One of the first that played a little jingle when you opened it up. They brought it to mid-night mass and the whole town was spellbound. For the longest time, they couldn't figure out where the music was coming from... :)

Re: New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2019, 12:42
by Dragon029
http://uawire.org/poland-to-buy-f-35-fi ... rom-the-us

...The first squadron of F-35 aircraft will be purchased by 2026, the second squadron - after 2026," — the PAP Agency quotes the Deputy Minister.