New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5729
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post06 Mar 2019, 08:43

XanderCrews wrote:The poles are going to want to buy American because it strengthens the partnership.

I don't know if I'm recalling correctly but the reason Poland has F-16s was they basically said "if you were willing to sell us those, we would not say no to buying them." and basically bypassed all European options. Poland and Cz Rep were also all too happy to host the US's ABM shield that was canceled, and Poland a few other eastern bloc nations have been vocal on the US establishing bases there. They aren't stupid. Getting US forces there basically creates a kind of "hostage" scenario where Russia can't attack Poland without getting the US directly involved. That's way better than all the treaties and promises and alliances on paper.



Poland like most Eastern European Countries. Know they need a strong partnership with the US to have any hope of deterring Russian ambitions.
Offline

wil59

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 208
  • Joined: 05 May 2015, 09:50

Unread post06 Mar 2019, 10:49

steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?

The response to your comments on the alleged non-selection of the Rafale is simple assault did not apply. A priori, the call for tenders that will be launched for this purpose by Warsaw does not seem to interest Dassault Aviation, the builder of the Rafale. According to the Polish press, only five companies have expressed the wish to participate in this procedure.

Unsurprisingly, we find the Americans Lockheed-Martin (F-35) and Boeing (F / A-18 Advanced Super Hornet), as well as the consortium Eurofighter (with the Italian Leonardo to the maneuver) and the Swedish Saab ( JAS-39 Gripen E / F). The fifth company is Fights-On Logistic. Based in Warsaw, the latter could supply second-hand F-16s, which would be added to the 48 currently used by Polish aviation.///Once again . Stop saying bullshit on dassault. Inform you before vomiting on the Rafale.
Offline

wil59

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 208
  • Joined: 05 May 2015, 09:50

Unread post06 Mar 2019, 11:02

Corsair1963 wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:The poles are going to want to buy American because it strengthens the partnership.

I don't know if I'm recalling correctly but the reason Poland has F-16s was they basically said "if you were willing to sell us those, we would not say no to buying them." and basically bypassed all European options. Poland and Cz Rep were also all too happy to host the US's ABM shield that was canceled, and Poland a few other eastern bloc nations have been vocal on the US establishing bases there. They aren't stupid. Getting US forces there basically creates a kind of "hostage" scenario where Russia can't attack Poland without getting the US directly involved. That's way better than all the treaties and promises and alliances on paper.



Poland like most Eastern European Countries. Know they need a strong partnership with the US to have any hope of deterring Russian ambitions.

Yes, that is why European planes have a very low chance of winning a competition like this one. The US-dominated NATO policy is decisive in the choice of countries for their future planes.
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6003
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 05:39

wil59 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?

The response to your comments on the alleged non-selection of the Rafale is simple assault did not apply. A priori, the call for tenders that will be launched for this purpose by Warsaw does not seem to interest Dassault Aviation, the builder of the Rafale. According to the Polish press, only five companies have expressed the wish to participate in this procedure.

Unsurprisingly, we find the Americans Lockheed-Martin (F-35) and Boeing (F / A-18 Advanced Super Hornet), as well as the consortium Eurofighter (with the Italian Leonardo to the maneuver) and the Swedish Saab ( JAS-39 Gripen E / F). The fifth company is Fights-On Logistic. Based in Warsaw, the latter could supply second-hand F-16s, which would be added to the 48 currently used by Polish aviation.///Once again . Stop saying bullshit on dassault. Inform you before vomiting on the Rafale.


Dassault knew they didn't have a shot as soon as they saw the Gripen on offer.
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1367
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 07:48

XanderCrews wrote:Dassault knew they didn't have a shot as soon as they saw the Gripen on offer.


Werde! :mrgreen:
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Offline

optimist

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 988
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 07:51

Who could pass up on Aviation Week's certified, 6th gen Gripen. It's a wonder that even LM didn't pull out.
Aussie fanboy
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1367
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 07:52

Corsair1963 wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Imagine the AEGIS Ashore data-linked to the F-35...

Missile limit, what missile limit? :mrgreen:


Same applies to F-35B's and F-35C's based at Sea..... :devil:


Add HIMARS LRPF
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Offline

wil59

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 208
  • Joined: 05 May 2015, 09:50

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 10:16

XanderCrews wrote:
wil59 wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Harrumph!

No Rafale!?!

I thought the Rafale was the piece de la resistance, the creme-de-la-creme of the 4th gen world!?! Slayer of dragons... master of active stealth... denier of WVR supremacy?

The response to your comments on the alleged non-selection of the Rafale is simple assault did not apply. A priori, the call for tenders that will be launched for this purpose by Warsaw does not seem to interest Dassault Aviation, the builder of the Rafale. According to the Polish press, only five companies have expressed the wish to participate in this procedure.

Unsurprisingly, we find the Americans Lockheed-Martin (F-35) and Boeing (F / A-18 Advanced Super Hornet), as well as the consortium Eurofighter (with the Italian Leonardo to the maneuver) and the Swedish Saab ( JAS-39 Gripen E / F). The fifth company is Fights-On Logistic. Based in Warsaw, the latter could supply second-hand F-16s, which would be added to the 48 currently used by Polish aviation.///Once again . Stop saying bullshit on dassault. Inform you before vomiting on the Rafale.


Dassault knew they didn't have a shot as soon as they saw the Gripen on offer.

hum it will be f18 vs f-35.The games are done for a long time.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3450
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 15:04

optimist wrote:Who could pass up on Aviation Week's certified, 6th gen Gripen. It's a wonder that even LM didn't pull out.


I don't doubt that the Gripen is a lesser aircraft, but I also think it would be a mistake to dismiss it out of hand. Poles are very practical people, and I doubt they're looking for a deep interdiction/OCA/all the latest bells and whistles type aircraft. Something simple, multi-role and "in the ballpark" is going to appeal to them - in much the same way the F-16 did.

As it stands, none of these options are going to be cheap. But an aircraft that can hold its own, fly multiple sorties daily. fulfill DCA/air policing/EW/air to ground and maintained with minimal support/expertise might be just what they're looking for. I'm not sure what the CPFH for the Gripen is, but assume it's on the cheaper side vs. the other competitors.

It would never be an F-35 (or even a SH), but "good enough" to support their NATO obligations IMO.
Offline

magitsu

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 417
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 15:37

Might want to look it through what capability they are replacing. This article suggests that the Su-22 capability is the first one, with MiG-29 not being as acute.
https://www.defence24.com/mig-29-and-su ... ed-by-2022

In the Polish air force the Su 22s fleet fulfils the role of ground attack and Close Air Support (CAS), reconnaissance and support to naval forces and ground Special Forces, and the sturdy airframes and the mighty and reliable engine make the Fitter particulary suitable for these roles. http://en.aviation-report.com/poland-la ... 2-fitters/

Gripen is among the weakest in A2G, CAS. ISR is also highly coveted, all of which lean toward F-35.
Online
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2178
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 18:02

If Washington will let the Poles buy the F-35... I do not see why they would purchase the Gripen E/F, or even the F-16V. Used Vipers? Maybe. But with F-35 heading rapidly towards $80M a copy, Gripen's would need to cost around $40M, IMO, to even be attactive. If Gripen's are $60M or more, why bother? Same argument hampers purchasing any new F-16V's.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
Offline

magitsu

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 417
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post08 Mar 2019, 18:14

Poles have already sizable resources invested into the F-16 system, so extra aren't on the same level bad as other inferior candidates. They will keep using them, so more of the same but newer (Block 70/V) could make some sense. F-35 on the other hand is a force multiplier approach. Growler's input into the overall system is a big question mark (since it's a new capability instead of the aim of replacing Su-22/MiG-29 capabilities). At least it makes some sense, whereas operating F-16 Block 52+ and just Super Hornet probably wouldn't.

Polish F-16 already has JASSM. So theoretically they could also be the ones going for Su-22's CAS/A2G job if they wanted to. F-35 could do ISR, air quarterbacking the F-16s, SEAD/DEAD.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23335
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post12 Mar 2019, 20:49

Poland eyes F-35 for Harpia requirement
12 Mar 2019 Bartosz Glowacki

"Warsaw has prioritised its Harpia fighter programme as part of a new technical modernisation plan for its armed forces, while its aged RAC MiG-29s remain grounded following a 4 March crash.

Poland plans to acquire 32 "fifth-generation" aircraft to replace its remaining MiG-29s and a ground-attack fleet of Sukhoi Su-22s. It is believed to be particularly interested in the Lockheed Martin F-35, although other candidates could include the Boeing F-15 or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Eurofighter consortium's Typhoon and the Saab Gripen E.

Defence minister Mariusz Blaszczak has initiated a process to implement the programme as soon as possible. This will include the appointment of a plenipotentiary to oversee the activity...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-456554/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23335
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post15 May 2019, 06:04

US, Poland to Discuss Potential F-35 Sale, Air Force Secretary Says
13 May 2019 Marcus Weisgerber

"Warsaw’s eagerness to buy the Joint Strike Fighter came up during Heather Wilson’s April visit to Poland.

A U.S. delegation is scheduled to brief Polish defense officials eager to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter later this month, U.S. Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said Monday. The American team is expected to discuss the costs of buying the Lockheed Martin-made jet as well as the warfighting capabilities it would bring to the Polish military.

“They want to deepen their relationship with the United States of America in part by interoperability of advanced equipment,” Wilson said after a Meridian International Center event in Washington. “Those discussions are continuing. We’re providing the information that might be needed for them to make a decision.”...

...Polish officials said they would buy 32 F-35s.

“The Polish government has decided that they want the F-35 and they’re in discussions with the United States,” Wilson said Monday. U.S. officials heading to Poland is a sign that the potential deal is going through the standard foreign military sale process....

...Last month, the F-35 program director listed Poland as a potential purchaser along with Greece, Singapore, Spain, and Romania. Vice Adm. Mat Winer submitted his written testimony to the House Armed Services tactical air and land forces subcommittee.

Later in April, Poland Defense Minister Mariusz Blaszczak told local media that a F-35 deal was “not far away.” While the sale has not been approved by the U.S. State Department, Wilson said it came up when she visited Poland in April....

... For comparison purposes, in January 2018, the Pentagon estimated the sale of 34 F-35s to Belgium at $6.53 billion when all associated costs are factored in...."

Source: https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... 35/156971/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3450
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post15 May 2019, 14:41

Good for the Poles then, hope they get the F-35.

The point about wanting US hardware/people in country is a good one. As someone with relatives over there, I can tell you that memories of being under Soviet/Russian rule still run deep. They have a deep rooted distrust (and in some cases, hatred) of the Russians, and do not under any circumstance to want a repeat of being under their thumb.

FUNNY STORY: During the late 80's, we sent a Christmas card to relatives in Poland. One of the first that played a little jingle when you opened it up. They brought it to mid-night mass and the whole town was spellbound. For the longest time, they couldn't figure out where the music was coming from... :)
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: notkent, steve2267 and 13 guests