SPAIN: Typhoons and F-35's to replace Hornets???

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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 02:55

Not sure, but it was said that an F-35 going that far with two internal one ton bombs would still have 7-8,000lb of fuel when they landed. Even increasing the fuel burn by 50% makes that possible with reserves.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post28 Oct 2020, 03:13

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 18:17

[quote="ricnunes"]
[quote="franfran2424"]
The F-35A ... carries less ordnance than the ground attack Typhoon.[/quote]

The issue was this quote, which was demonstrably false. It wasn't an LGB/JDAM argument, it was the "less ord" argument. the ability to carry 8x250# class weapons AND 4x2,000#class weapons AND 4xAAMs AND the targeting equipment AND the ECM AND the fuel to get them over a long range. IIRC the Typhoon only has three pylons rated for 2,000# class ord, and those are the fuel pylons.

At best the Typhoon can carry 3 x 2000lb ordinance/bombs which is exactly half the F-35A/C maximum capability with the same type of ordinance and then again if the Typhoon carried those three (3) potential 2000lb ordinance/bombs this would be done at the cost of not being able to carry a targeting pod at all which in the case of the Typhoon is usually carried on the centerline fuselage pylon.
[/quote]

The typhoon has 13 pylons which can carry up to 9000kg (7000kg if operating with a full fuel tank). 8 underwing, 5 under fuselage. 1 of those would be the targeting pod.

The F-35A has 10 pylons that can carry up to 8200kg. 4 internal, 6 external.

I don't know where does the confusion come from. It has more pylons, more max weight... It's better for ground attack considering fuel consumption too
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post29 Oct 2020, 19:04

franfran2424 wrote:The typhoon has 13 pylons which can carry up to 9000kg (7000kg if operating with a full fuel tank). 8 underwing, 5 under fuselage. 1 of those would be the targeting pod.

The F-35A has 10 pylons that can carry up to 8200kg. 4 internal, 6 external.

I don't know where does the confusion come from. It has more pylons, more max weight... It's better for ground attack considering fuel consumption too

Because it actually isn't that simple. Let's talk real weight first. Max-empty-internal fuel

Typhoon - 51,809-24,251-11,010 = 16,548 (7522kg)
F-35A - 70,000-29,300-18,250 = 22,450 (10,204kg, but pylon weight limited to 8,200kg)

The F-35A has a higher weight margin and the margin is so large that even putting the heaviest load possible on each pylon will not result in reaching max take-off weight.

Now let's talk pylons for an AG mission.

Typhoon - 13 pylons. 6 are dedicated AA pylons and 1 of the remaining pylons will carry the TGP. It has 6 AG pylons remaining. As we have discussed, only two of these are rated for large weapons.

F-35A - 11 pylons. Centerline will not be used as of now, but it is still there. 4 of the remaining 10 are dedicated AA pylons. It has 6 AG pylons and they are all rated for large weapons.

Same number of AG pylons, more high weight pylons on the F-35A, more weight capacity on the F-35A.


Assuming the AA pylons (not internal or semi-recessed) weigh 150lb and the AG pylons weight 300lb

Typhoon - 936kg of AAMs, 1,091kg of pylons, 208kg targeting pod. 5,287kg capacity for the 6 pylons with 4 of them limited to 500kg class weapons. Before adding AG weapons the Typhoon has a fuel fraction of 0.274 with a sensitivity of -0.014 per 1,000kg of added munitions.

F-35A - 475kg of AAMs, 682kg of pylons. 7,043kg capacity for the 6 pylons, 4 of them rated to 1,000kg class weapons while the other two are rated for 2,500kg class. Before adding AG weapons the F-35A has a fuel fraction of 0.364 with a sensitivity of -0.015 per 1,000kg of added munitions.

So, the F-35A has just as many AG stations as a Typhoon, can carry more on each station both based on station rating and MGTOW limits, and has a higher relative fuel load to carry to payload farther. If the Typhoon wants to add range it has to sacrifice the only two heavy stations it has.
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falcon.16

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Unread post05 Nov 2020, 14:34

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

Assuming the AA pylons (not internal or semi-recessed) weigh 150lb and the AG pylons weight 300lb

Typhoon - 936kg of AAMs, 1,091kg of pylons, 208kg targeting pod. 5,287kg capacity for the 6 pylons with 4 of them limited to 500kg class weapons. Before adding AG weapons the Typhoon has a fuel fraction of 0.274 with a sensitivity of -0.014 per 1,000kg of added munitions.




I dont understand where you get those numbers, can you explain it better?
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hornetfinn

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Unread post05 Nov 2020, 16:17

EF Typhoon carries 5 tonnes of internal fuel while F-35A carries 8.3 tonnes. That's whopping 66% more internal fuel for F-35A. F-35A is less than 20 percent heavier (especially considering it carries targeting pod as standard) and has about 10 percent more thrust. So it will fly a lot further than EF Typhoon with the same loadout. EF Typhoon would need CFTs and all 3 EFTs to get close to F-35A range. That'd limit the max A/G loadout to 2 heavy weapons or 4 light bombs (1,000 lbs or less) or 2 heavy and 2 light bombs. F-35 on the other hand can carry 6 heavy weapons or say 4 heavy and 4-8 light weapons. I don't think EF Typhoon is competitive in payload and range with F-35A in real life configurations. For very short range work with small bombs it might have equal payload.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post05 Nov 2020, 17:06

falcon.16 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

Assuming the AA pylons (not internal or semi-recessed) weigh 150lb and the AG pylons weight 300lb

Typhoon - 936kg of AAMs, 1,091kg of pylons, 208kg targeting pod. 5,287kg capacity for the 6 pylons with 4 of them limited to 500kg class weapons. Before adding AG weapons the Typhoon has a fuel fraction of 0.274 with a sensitivity of -0.014 per 1,000kg of added munitions.




I dont understand where you get those numbers, can you explain it better?

Which numbers?

AAM weight was just looking up the weight for 4 Meteors and two ASRAAMs, pylons were assumed in the quoted portion so I did 2 AA pylons and 7 AG pylons, targeting pod is looked up for LITENING II or SNIPER.

I had previously discussed the weight availability after internal fuel so I subtracted the weight for the AA weapons, pylons, and TGP to get the weight available for AG munitions.

Fuel fraction was weight of fuel divided by total weight at that point and the sensitivity was showing how quickly the fuel fraction changed with added munitions.
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falcon.16

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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 11:54

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

Assuming the AA pylons (not internal or semi-recessed) weigh 150lb and the AG pylons weight 300lb

Typhoon - 936kg of AAMs, 1,091kg of pylons, 208kg targeting pod. 5,287kg capacity for the 6 pylons with 4 of them limited to 500kg class weapons. Before adding AG weapons the Typhoon has a fuel fraction of 0.274 with a sensitivity of -0.014 per 1,000kg of added munitions.




I dont understand where you get those numbers, can you explain it better?

Which numbers?

AAM weight was just looking up the weight for 4 Meteors and two ASRAAMs, pylons were assumed in the quoted portion so I did 2 AA pylons and 7 AG pylons, targeting pod is looked up for LITENING II or SNIPER.

I had previously discussed the weight availability after internal fuel so I subtracted the weight for the AA weapons, pylons, and TGP to get the weight available for AG munitions.

Fuel fraction was weight of fuel divided by total weight at that point and the sensitivity was showing how quickly the fuel fraction changed with added munitions.


Thanks.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 13:57

np
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