Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 01:29
by zerion
Pentagon Eyes F-35 Sales to Greece, Romania and Poland

WASHINGTON —
The United States is considering expanding sales of Lockheed Martin Corp made F-35 fighter jets to five new nations including Romania, Greece and Poland as European allies bulk up their defenses in the face of a strengthening Russia, a Pentagon official told Congress on Thursday.

In written testimony submitted to the U.S. House of Representatives and seen by Reuters, Vice Admiral Mathias Winter — the head of the Pentagon's F-35 office — said that "future potential Foreign Military Sales customers include Singapore, Greece, Romania, Spain and Poland."

News of the new customers coincides with U.S. tension with F-35 development partner Turkey over Ankara's plans to buy a Russian missile defense system.

Foreign military sales like those of the F-35 are considered government-to-government deals where the Pentagon acts as an intermediary between the defense contractor and a foreign government...

https://www.voanews.com/a/pentagon-eyes ... 62419.html

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 15:03
by mixelflick
Um, doesn't Greece have the S-300?

Turkey is going to love this...

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 16:07
by SpudmanWP
Greece does not have Russian "technicians" working on their S-300.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 17:34
by ricnunes
And moreover, those S-300's were in fact purchased by the Republic of Cyprus (and not by Greece) but after the Turks opposed to this deal and threatened to invade Cyprus (or more precisely to invade the Republic of Cyprus or the part of Cyprus that doesn't belong to Turkey) it was decided to give the purchased S-300's to the Greeks in exchange for other weapons.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 17:55
by swiss
ricnunes wrote:And moreover, those S-300's were in fact purchased by the Republic of Cyprus (and not by Greece) but after the Turks opposed to this deal and threatened to invade Cyprus (or more precisely to invade the Republic of Cyprus or the part of Cyprus that doesn't belong to Turkey) it was decided to give the purchased S-300's to the Greeks in exchange for other weapons.


Interesting. This would also mean, the Nato has a very good understanding how capable the S-300 is. Has the US purchase there S-300 from the Greeks?

The Russians should be not very happy, if Poland purchase the Pac-3 and the F-35.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 18:47
by ricnunes
swiss wrote:Interesting. This would also mean, the Nato has a very good understanding how capable the S-300 is.


I would say that between the Greek S-300's and the S-300 battery owned by Slovakia (which is also a NATO member, this since 2004) that NATO has plenty of sources to "get acquainted" with the S-300.

swiss wrote:Has the US purchase there S-300 from the Greeks?


As far as I know, nope.
Also as far as I know the Greek S-300's are currently based on the island of Crete and operated by the Greek (Hellenic) Air Force.

swiss wrote:The Russians should be not very happy, if Poland purchase the Pac-3 and the F-35.


I would say that anything that makes the Russians unhappy will make the Pole extremely happy! It has been quite awhile since Poland left the Russian sphere of influence (Poland is a NATO member since 1999).
I would also dare to say that even during the communist era, that suspicion and even hatred nurtured among Poles against the Russians, namely because WWII - people often forget that in 1939, Poland was not only invaded by Germany but was also invaded as well by the USSR, this in 1939.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 19:40
by wrightwing
I'm not sure if it's ever been proposed, but offering land based versions of SM-6 as an upper tier SAM, along with THAAD and AEGIS ASHORE SM-3s to more allies, ought to tweak Turkey and Russia.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 19:56
by SpudmanWP
SM-6 would work with Aegis Ashore just fine.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 20:20
by wrightwing
SpudmanWP wrote:SM-6 would work with Aegis Ashore just fine.

And it would offer a product for those looking for more range, without having to look at Russian/Chinese products, not to mention being compatible with F-35s.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 20:54
by SpudmanWP
Imagine data-linked, ground-based, and IRST directed SM-6 shots that could extend for hundreds of miles over the horizon from the launcher :)

You could take an additional step of containerizing the SM-6 units and spread them around the country.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 21:21
by Tiger05
swiss wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Interesting. This would also mean, the Nato has a very good understanding how capable the S-300 is.


I would say that between the Greek S-300's and the S-300 battery owned by Slovakia (which is also a NATO member, this since 2004) that NATO has plenty of sources to "get acquainted" with the S-300.


Indeed. It should be noted that Bulgaria has S-300s too so there are actually three NATO members using the system.

The US is also in possession of the system. It was discreetly acquired from Belarus back in the 90s for evaluation:

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/12/24/us/i ... -arms.html

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2019, 01:34
by spazsinbad
Poland hopeful of speeding F-35 acquisition :doh: [Who is worried about NO TURKISH F-35s? DEATH SPIRAL!] :devil:
05 Apr 2019 Bartosz Glowacki

"Poland believes it can accelerate the purchase of up to 32 Lockheed Martin F-35 combat aircraft, following suggestions that the USA is willing to expand the fifth-generation jet's operator base. In written testimony to the US House of Representatives, Vice Admiral Mat Winter, director of the Joint Strike Fighter programme, indicated that the Department of Defense was considering sales to countries including Greece, Poland, Romania and Spain….

..."Since the US side talks about it publicly, it means that the purchase can be accelerated," says defence minister Mariusz Blaszczak. "I am happy with this information. This is not a surprise because we have already started negotiations [with the USA]. I have prepared the legal and financial basis to acquire at least 32 fifth-generation combat aircraft."

Lockheed executive vice-president international Richard Edwards says talks on the acquisition should proceed very quickly, but cautions that the Foreign Military Sales process cannot be rushed. If a contract was signed now, he says, deliveries could be possible in 2024.

Unofficially, it is believed Warsaw will buy a first tranche of 16 F-35s.... In total, Warsaw could require as many as 48 of the stealthy type."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-457275/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 18:05
by zerion
The F-35 Plays Starring Role In Exercise “INIOCHOS 2019” in Greece

...

However, as mentioned above, the main difference from last year was the presence of a 5th generation aircraft: the Italian F-35, at their first participation in a multinational exercise abroad.

“The experience has been amazing, because we had the opportunity to exploit all capabilities of the weapon system, performing both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions, SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) and DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses) missions,” “Driver”, the commander of the 13° Gruppo, commented after “INIOCHOS”.

Throughout the exercise, the Italian jets (F-35, Tornado IDS and ECR) have carried out 74 missions, totalling approximately 250 flying hours.

“Due to the fact that it is a medium-scale exercise, INIOCHOS 2019 provides the ItAF with a high level of training and unique experience of partecipation. Firstly, the variety of weapon systems involved in the exercise is an enormous chance that, obviously, it is not so common during our daily training. Moreover, we had the opportunity to enhance cooperation whitin partecipating countires. Finally, INIOCHOS gives us the opportunity to perform in a complex scenario a full spectrum of missions such as CAS (Close Air Support), DT (Dynamic targeting), SCAR ( Strike coordination and reconnaissance), OCA (Offensive counter air), IADS (Air Operations versus integrated Air Defence System) and DCA (Defensive Counter Air). All these kind of missions have been carried out simultaneously, during a single COMAO (Composite Air Operation),” told us the chief of the Italian detachment.

Interestingly, the F-35s flew side-to-side with the Tornado ECR of the 155° Gruppo, a variant of the baseline “Tonka” equipped with electronic warfare equipment and weapons for the suppression of enemy air defences and for electronic and tactical reconnaissance, that the Lightning II is expected to replace in the future. The Tornado ECRs performed several SEAD and DEAD (Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses) in a complex scenario in which Hellenic Land and Sea forces simulated to be enemy threats. In this context, in order to make the scenario more challenging and realistic, and also to let the crews train, these missions have been carried out with the use of CATM-88B captive air training missiles.

“F-35A have carried out several combined missions with all the partecipating weapon systems which are usually called COMAOs (Composite Air Operations). In these COMAOs there is a rotating mission commander that plans, arranges and organizes the available weapon systems, with the help of the other partecipating countries, in order to accomplish the task of the mission.”

The F-35 attracted the interest of both pilots, observers and photographers who attended the “INIOCHOS 2019”: the aircraft was all over the news in Greece during the DV (Distinghished Visitor) day of the drills, attended by Defense Minister Evangelos Apostolakis who, during the press conference said: “Beyond the upgrade of the F-16 fighter jets, we are in the process of selecting a new plane for Greece, so we can gradually move to the new generation of aircraft.” Indeed, it seems like Greece has started considering the 5th generation aircraft as a replacement for at least 23 F-16C/D aircraft.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/04/12/t ... in-greece/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 15 Apr 2019, 01:15
by Corsair1963
While, I see Poland possibly even Greece as likely F-35 Customers. I have a hard time believing Romania could afford the F-35. At least in the near future...

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 17 Apr 2019, 01:59
by jurryaany
Corsair1963 wrote:While, I see Poland possibly even Greece as likely F-35 Customers. I have a hard time believing Romania could afford the F-35. At least in the near future...


While I agree financing is likely an issue for Romania (as it would be with Greece, too), its political leadership has been clear and adamant on the procurement of "one squadron".

Dates are sparingly given, In 2010 Romania's military leadership stated it wished to acquire F-35s. Source (in Romanian): https://archive.is/20120909210724/http: ... in-romania

In 2017, the political leadership restated its interest in procuring the F-35, implying it'd be accounted for in the budget that runs until 2026. Sources (in Romanian): https://archive.is/20171228132103/http: ... 1.html%23n, https://archive.is/20171228131552/https ... 16443.html

All in all I think the political will is there, but financing it will be tough. I'll be interested to see if there's any additional Romanian responses following this U.S. overture, but even then I don't expect Romania to bite in the near future, as it's just not their prime priority at the moment.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 14:16
by jakobs
Corsair1963 wrote:While, I see Poland possibly even Greece as likely F-35 Customers. I have a hard time believing Romania could afford the F-35. At least in the near future...


I don't see any issues with Romania funding F-35 if they want it, they have shown in recent years that they are taking defence serious. I do however think they will prioritise other programs first, such as new corvettes and the program to buy Patriot.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 15:21
by marsavian
You only need to buy a handful of F-35 to make a radical difference to your air force, you don't need to go all in at first. Six to twelve F-35 to act as forward controllers and EW growlers for the rest of your 3/4th gen fighters could tip the balance. That's the beauty of this stealthy heavily networked aircraft, every one makes a difference greater than its own individual ability.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2019, 22:32
by zerion
Long article best read there
Looks Like Poland Wants To Replace Its Soviet-era MiG-29 And Su-22 Jets With The F-35 At Any Cost

Is Poland Getting the F-35 in its Harpia Program?

In early April, Vice-Admiral Mathias Winter, representing the US DoD, suggested, at the House of Representatives, that the US is considering selling the F-35 to five allied nations: Poland, Romania, Greece, Spain and Singapore. Back in February, on the other hand, the head of the Polish MoD signed the so called Technical Modernization Plan document, outlining the priorities that shall be addressed over the course of the modernization process. Given that during the presentation of the plan Błaszczak suggested the procurement of 32 fifth generation fighters is a priority, he was probably referring to acquisition of the F-35 – no other true 5-generation aircraft is currently available on the market...

https://theaviationist.com/2019/04/20/l ... -any-cost/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 13:52
by mixelflick
Good for them, the Poles deserve it.

They've integrated well into NATO, and have shown proficiency with the F-16/LM products. Having even a dozen would be a very credible deterrent, and most importantly - up LM's stock price :)

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 19:02
by charlielima223
The article states...
What’s interesting, the pilots that we have talked to tend to suggest that the F-15X would be a better choice for the Polish Air Force.


I am genuinely interesting to hear/read those pilots opinions on the matter. It would seem for the USAF, upper echelons of command prefer not to have the F-15X and the pilots seem for the most part to either agree or not have a strong opinion one way or the other.
I think Poland having the F-35 is a good thing. For one, Poland is a very active military member of NATO and that they take the threat of Russia to be very serious both militarily and politically. Should Poland acquire 32 F-35s, they would have an air force that is more capable then their German counterparts and it symbolically (for them) be a giant "F-you" to Russia.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2019, 01:59
by Corsair1963
charlielima223 wrote:The article states...
What’s interesting, the pilots that we have talked to tend to suggest that the F-15X would be a better choice for the Polish Air Force.


I am genuinely interesting to hear/read those pilots opinions on the matter. It would seem for the USAF, upper echelons of command prefer not to have the F-15X and the pilots seem for the most part to either agree or not have a strong opinion one way or the other.
I think Poland having the F-35 is a good thing. For one, Poland is a very active military member of NATO and that they take the threat of Russia to be very serious both militarily and politically. Should Poland acquire 32 F-35s, they would have an air force that is more capable then their German counterparts and it symbolically (for them) be a giant "F-you" to Russia.


Doesn't give any specifics on the pilots??? Which, makes them highly questionable. In addition the Polish Air Force Leadership is so impressed with the F-35. That it's the sole source for their next fighter.....(speaks volumes)

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2019, 02:03
by Corsair1963
jakobs wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:While, I see Poland possibly even Greece as likely F-35 Customers. I have a hard time believing Romania could afford the F-35. At least in the near future...


I don't see any issues with Romania funding F-35 if they want it, they have shown in recent years that they are taking defence serious. I do however think they will prioritise other programs first, such as new corvettes and the program to buy Patriot.



QUOTE: Romania will buy five more F-16 aircraft from Portugal and the acquisition procedure could be completed this year, according to Romanian defense minister Gabriel Les.

Romania bought 12 F-16 multirole aircraft from Portugal in 2013 and will buy five more to have a complete squadron of 17 fighters, the minister also said, local Radio Europa Libera Romania reported. The five F-16s will be second-hand, modernized in Portugal.


Commenting on the news that the U.S. is considering selling F-35 fighters to five new nations, including Romania, Gabriel Les said that, at the moment, this would be “a bit too much” for Romania.

https://www.romania-insider.com/index.p ... 6-portugal

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 16:39
by zerion
Polish defense minister: F-35 acquisition ‘not far away’

WARSAW, Poland — Polish Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak said April 29 that the Polish government aimed to sign a deal to station U.S. troops in Poland this year, and a contract to purchase F-35 fighter jets was “not far away” from being signed.

Blaszczak’s announcement in an interview with local broadcaster TVP indicates that Warsaw could aim to negotiate on the potential troop deployment in parallel with the aircraft acquisition. Poland has pitched for the United States to build a permanent military base in the country, offering to pay at least $2 billion toward the project, dubbed “Fort Trump.”

On April 25, during her visit to Warsaw, Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said that a U.S. Air Force team was to be sent to Poland in May to demonstrate the capabilities of the F-35 to Polish defence ministry officials, as reported by local news agency PAP.

Last February, Blaszczak said the planned acquisition of 32 fifth-generation aircraft would be carried out as part of the country’s military modernization program. Under the initiative, Warsaw aims to spend 185 billion zloty ($48.5 billion) on new weapons and equipment by 2026...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -far-away/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 17:42
by XanderCrews
charlielima223 wrote:The article states...
What’s interesting, the pilots that we have talked to tend to suggest that the F-15X would be a better choice for the Polish Air Force.


Image
"It WoNt HuRt Or CoMpEtE AgAiNsT F-35, GuYZ"

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2019, 03:06
by Corsair1963
They should have pushed the F-15EX to Taiwan if anybody.........

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 22:09
by jurryaany
US delegation scheduled to brief Polish officials on F-35 later in May.

A U.S. delegation is scheduled to brief Polish defense officials eager to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter later this month, U.S. Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said Monday.


https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... 35/156971/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 22:23
by spazsinbad
jurryaany wrote:US delegation scheduled to brief Polish officials on F-35 later in May.

A U.S. delegation is scheduled to brief Polish defense officials eager to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter later this month, U.S. Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said Monday.


https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... 35/156971/

What a shame we have TWO threads to POLISH. Oh well - dems de brakes.

New player on the board? Poland wants the F-35 too.

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=7839&p=419436&hilit=Weisgerber#p419436

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2019, 12:04
by krieger22
Poland has just announced plans to buy two squadrons of F-35s. http://uawire.org/poland-to-buy-f-35-fi ... rom-the-us

Polish Deputy Minister of Defense Wojciech Skurkiewicz revealed plans to purchase two batches of American F-35 fighters.

According to him, the first aircraft will enter the service of the Polish army by2026. The Minister called this decision a turning point and crucial for the Polish Air Force.

"This is a crucial decision that will raise our Air Force to a higher level. The first squadron of F-35 aircraft will be purchased by 2026, the second squadron - after 2026," — the PAP Agency quotes the Deputy Minister.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2019, 13:01
by madrat
The Poles were not backwards as a military until socialists thwarted her stepping into the 20th century prior to World War 2.

Its safe to say they've learned a hard lesson and do not want to repeat history.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2019, 12:39
by krieger22
https://twitter.com/mblaszczak/status/1 ... 40608?s=21

The Polish Defense Minister has stated that they have sent a request for quotation regarding the purchase of 32 F-35As along with a logistics and training package

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2019, 16:35
by SpudmanWP
Finally... Poland can kick German butt for a change ;)

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2019, 01:15
by Corsair1963
krieger22 wrote:https://twitter.com/mblaszczak/status/1133260909894340608?s=21

The Polish Defense Minister has stated that they have sent a request for quotation regarding the purchase of 32 F-35As along with a logistics and training package




Poland Sends a Letter Of Request Concerning the F-35 Making A Step Forward In Its Effort To Acquire The Stealth Jet

The Polish MoD announced that it has sent a LOR (Letter Of Request) today, concerning the procurement of the Lockheed’s offering. Warsaw is willing to acquire the 5th generation stealth aircraft in its effort to modernize the Polish Air Force’s inventory.

The potential procurement includes 32 examples of the F-35A CTOL (Conventional Take Off and Landing) variant along with a training and logistics package. Błaszczak emphasized the fact that the acquisition is aimed at replacement of the older MiG-29 and Su-22 airframes. The Polish Air Force currently operates the aforesaid types, alongside 48 F-16 Block 52+ jets. The F-35 is to provide the Polish military aviation with an ability to work in an A2/AD bubble, that is expected to be formed should a potential conflict break out considering the geopolitical circumstances in which Poland currently finds itself.

Let us recall the fact that the MoD requested that the Harpia next generation MRCA (Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) program shall be accelerated back in November last year. The decision was fuelled by the fact that Polish Fulcrums have been involved in a couple of incidents and accidents recently which motivated the MoD to expedite the process. Lockheed Martin, according to TVN BiŚ, also assures that potential industrial input could also be provided, should Poland decide to proceed with the acquisition. TVN BiŚ also reports that Lockheed Martin’s Richard Edwards, Executive Vice President, Lockheed Martin International, declared that the jets could be delivered and reach IOC (Initial Operational Capability) status by 2024..............


https://theaviationist.com/2019/05/28/p ... Q1RFjxn5f4

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 01:26
by zerion
Spain’s military still has eyes for the F-35 despite European fighter push

MADRID – The Spanish navy and air force are still interested in the American F-35 fighter jet, even though the government is about to join a Franco-German program to develop a new European plane.

The two services are in the beginning stages of an analysis in which the Lockheed Martin-made aircraft is emerging as a key contender, officials told reporters on the sidelines of the FEINDEF defense expo here in late May...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... hter-push/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 04:40
by Corsair1963
zerion wrote:
Spain’s military still has eyes for the F-35 despite European fighter push

MADRID – The Spanish navy and air force are still interested in the American F-35 fighter jet, even though the government is about to join a Franco-German program to develop a new European plane.

The two services are in the beginning stages of an analysis in which the Lockheed Martin-made aircraft is emerging as a key contender, officials told reporters on the sidelines of the FEINDEF defense expo here in late May...

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... hter-push/



Clearly, the F-35B is the only viable option for the Spanish Navy. Which, should make the F-35A even more attractive to the Spanish Air Force. Especially, combined with the latters low price. Yet, I doubt France and Germany would be to happy.
:wink:

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 10:11
by doge
From Romania, practically, it seems the statement "wants to F-35" was issued. 8)
(Language is all Romanian. I went through google translation.)
https://www.defenseromania.ro/le-romani ... 97681.html
Leş: Romania wants to buy F-35s
Tudor Curtifan / 03 Jul 2019 / 12:46
Minister Gabriel Leş held a press conference shortly after.
The Defense Minister spoke about the possibility of purchasing the F-35s of the fifth generation by our country.

F-35 for Romania, not earlier than 2028
Asked if Romania is thinking about the F-35 , Les answered without hesitation: " Yes, definitely, yes!" . The Minister of Defense added that our country will concretely discuss this with the strategic partner.

" It's a capability that we have in mind. We're caught in this program. If all things go well, we can discuss such a capability from 2028 onwards , "Gabriel Leş said.

Asked if a squadron could be discussed, he said that such information is technical issues that can only be explained after discussions on costs and other data, but Romania is interested in the F-35.

Launched in the early 1990s, the F-35 is the most expensive of US military weapons programs with a total estimated cost of nearly $ 400 billion for the Pentagon, with a target of nearly 2,500 units to be produced in the coming decades.

Its supporters praise its stealth technology, which allows it to pass undetected radar, supersonic speed, agility and sensors that give the pilot unparalleled access to a wide range of information.

https://www.aviatiamagazin.com/aviatie- ... oane-f-35/
Minister of Defense announces that Romania will buy F-35s
Lancer 3 Jul 2019
Defense Minister Gabriel Les announced that Romania is interested in V-F-35 Lightning II, and in less than a decade will try to acquire them.

The Romanian official said the F-35 is included in the Air Force endowment program and says the cost difference between a new Lightning II and a new F-16, the latest generation, is very low.

"We want this capability and we are caught in this program. However, the F-35s, as a price, within an arming program are close to the F16's new price, "Gabriel Leş told The Truth .

According to sources, the acquisition of the F-35 is considered starting in 2028, but it is not known whether there is any analysis of the number of devices and the overall cost of such a contract.

Until the F's 35, Gabriel Les announces for the second consecutive year that Romania will buy another five F-16 AM / BM fighters at the second hand to complete Squadron 53.

https://adevarul.ro/news/eveniment/surs ... index.html
The Ministry of Defense supplies the F-35 Air Force
July 3, 2019, 12:50
The National Defense Ministry decided on Wednesday to enter the state-of-the-art F-35 aircraft hunting airplane program. The Minister of Defense confirmed that Romania wants this capability and is caught in this program.
UPDATE
Minister of Defense Gabriel Leş confirmed the interest of the Ministry of Defense for the acquisition of the most modern combat plane in the world. "We want this capability and we are caught up in this program. However, the F-35s, as a price, within an arming program are close to the price of the new F16 planes," said Gabriel Leş. In addition, Defense Minister Gabriel Leş announced that another five F16 planes will be bought, which are in the same configuration as the 12 already acquired so that there will eventually be an operational operational capability for this squadron.

"The MApN has decided to enter the F-35 airplane delivery program," said the MApN sources for "Adevărul". "From 2028 we will begin to equip the Air Force with these hunting avions. "Said the cited sources. In April, vice-admiral Mathias Winter, head of the Pentagon's F-35 office, told a Camra Representative's commission that "future potential customers in the field of military sales abroad include Singapore, Greece, Romania, Spain and Poland." Last year, Belgium announced that it chose the F-35 to the detriment of Eurofighter Typhoon to renew its F-16 fleet, a 4 billion-dollar business ($ 4.55 billion). The price of an F-35 starts at $ 100 million. The US group also offers offset: suppliers of parts from these countries will produce not only the devices that will be delivered to the national armed forces but for the whole F-35 program. In addition to the US headquarters, Lockheed Martin has set up F-35s in Italy, Turkey and Japan. Other US allies seeking to acquire the invisible F-35 aircraft are Finland, Switzerland and the Saudi Arabia.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Jul 2019, 14:30
by mixelflick
I would think that by 2028 (hell, right now) a new F-35 would cost as much as a new build F-16 - possibly less. I can see the Poles def going for it, the Romanians too. Greece, tough to say. They're going to need something to answer to whatever Turkey ends up flying, and the F-35 will be the cheapest/best option.

Singapore will order too, just a matter of how many of each. Great time to hold LM stock, or I imagine be working there...

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 23:33
by spazsinbad
How Poland plans to land an F-35 deal and ‘Fort Trump’
29 Aug 2019 Jaroslaw Adamowski

"WARSAW, Poland — By 2026, the Polish Ministry of Defence plans to allocate about 185 billion zloty (U.S. $47 billion) toward acquiring new weapons and military equipment, with fifth-generation fighter jets a top priority....

...Warsaw’s potential acquisition of fifth-gen fighters is one of the top modernization projects in the pipeline. In May, Polish Defense Minister Mariusz Blaszczak said the ministry sent a letter of request to the U.S. regarding Warsaw’s plan to acquire 32 F-35A aircraft....

...Negotiations for the jets are taking place as Warsaw is seeking a permanent U.S. military presence in Poland, dubbed “Fort Trump.” Warsaw offered to allocate at least $2 billion toward the project under which the U.S. would build a military base in the country. On June 12, Polish President Andrzej Duda met with U.S. President Donald Trump in Washington to discuss the initiative and ink a joint declaration on defense cooperation regarding U.S. force posture in Poland....

...Trump is scheduled to visit Poland from Aug. 31-Sept. 1. The topics of a stronger U.S. troop presence in the country, as well as a potential F-35 sale, are expected to come up. But F-35 acquisition negotiations will likely be separate from Fort Trump discussions, as the logistics and technical aspects of a troop deployment deal are nearing a conclusion, according to Tomasz Smura, the director of the research office at the Warsaw-based Casimir Pulaski Foundation.

“If Poland decides to buy the F-35, this will open an array of new possibilities before the Polish Air Force in the upcoming decades. This aircraft offers stealth and interoperability capacities that are currently not available to the Polish military,” Smura told Defense News. “However, there are also some critical voices on this potential purchase. Some analysts doubt whether we should introduce a second type of fighter instead of expanding Poland’s fleet of 48 F-16s. This number of modern fighter jets doesn’t match Poland’s military needs and the country’s size. Other analysts add that we’re simply not ready to fully use the capacities offered by the F-35, and that further F-16s would suffice to match the current state of development of the air forces of our eastern neighbors.”

Despite the country’s rising defense expenditure, some observers also doubt Poland’s capacity to finance the F-35 acquisition alongside other ambitious military procurements, such as the Wisla air defense program...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... ort-trump/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 04:30
by element1loop
spazsinbad wrote:
“However, there are also some critical voices on this potential purchase. Some analysts doubt whether we should introduce a second type of fighter instead of expanding Poland’s fleet of 48 F-16s. This number of modern fighter jets doesn’t match Poland’s military needs and the country’s size. Other analysts add that we’re simply not ready to fully use the capacities offered by the F-35, and that further F-16s would suffice to match the current state of development of the air forces of our eastern neighbors.”
Source: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... ort-trump/


"Current" state of development? The aircraft could serve for the next ~40 years once delivered!

Wouldn't give 2-cents for those 'analysts'.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 11:17
by magitsu
On the other hand it's very reasonable to admit that F-35 requires heavy investment into C&C, comms, analysis capability or some potential is squandered. But it would still be the best even at "F-16 infrastructure levels".

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 12:38
by element1loop
magitsu wrote:On the other hand it's very reasonable to admit that F-35 requires heavy investment into C&C, comms, analysis capability or some potential is squandered. But it would still be the best even at "F-16 infrastructure levels".


By the time they order, build, train and deliver, then reach IOC and FOC they have most of a decade too upgrade their systems.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 31 Aug 2019, 14:41
by mixelflick
mixelflick wrote:I would think that by 2028 (hell, right now) a new F-35 would cost as much as a new build F-16 - possibly less. I can see the Poles def going for it, the Romanians too. Greece, tough to say. They're going to need something to answer to whatever Turkey ends up flying, and the F-35 will be the cheapest/best option.

Singapore will order too, just a matter of how many of each. Great time to hold LM stock, or I imagine be working there...


I bought it at $88/share, my biggest winner by far. Not only that, they pay a dividend! I'm dripping in a Roth, so thank God
LM keeps racking up sales...

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2019, 06:03
by Corsair1963
F-35: The Right Choice for Poland

(Source: Lockheed Martin; issued Aug 30, 2019)


The F-35A is the best value solution for replacing Poland’s existing MiG-29 and Su-22 jets in the Polish fleet, and is available today to meet the needs of the Polish Air Force now and into the future.

Lockheed Martin is a trusted partner for Poland, for Europe and NATO and we’re invested in supporting the long-term strategic priorities of the Polish Ministry of Defense. In addition to providing Poland with a mature, 5th Generation weapon system, acquisition of the F-35 will bring supply chain and technology transfer opportunities to Poland.

The F-35 will reinforce Poland’s defense leadership in Central Europe and ensure the Polish Air Force’s offensive and defensive capabilities continue to outpace advancing threats.

With unparalleled stealth, advanced sensors, supersonic speed, weapons capacity and increased range, the F-35 is the most advanced, survivable and connected fighter jet ever built.

With advanced threats in close proximity, Poland’s defense and security requires a low observable stealth aircraft to ensure survivability and mission effectiveness. The F-35’s unique mix of stealth and sensor technology can enable the Polish Air Force to covertly patrol, monitor and conduct surveillance without being detected.

The F-35 has an operational mission radius greater than 700 nautical miles in low observable configurations and internal fuel capacity of nearly 19,000 pounds. When the mission doesn't require low observability, the F-35 can carry more than 18,000 pounds of ordnance.

Additionally, Poland will benefit from a planned modernization program that will be funded by the full F-35 enterprise and will continue to enhance the aircraft’s weapons capacity, electronic warfare suite, sensor capability and more.

The F-35 is the European aircraft of choice for replacing heritage fleets and offers unmatched interoperability with NATO and other allied assets while ensuring the Polish Air Force’s role as a fully interoperable, integrated member of NATO and coalition operations.

The advanced sensors of the F-35 will enhance situational awareness for the entire Polish Armed Forces and strengthen Poland’s capability to fulfill their NATO Baltic air policing mission.

The current Polish F-16 pilots will benefit from having the F-35 join the Polish Air Force fleet and those who transition will benefit from common training, equipment and tactics with other NATO countries. There is also increased opportunity for joint training exercises, which we have seen demonstrated at Red Flag, Trident Juncture and more.

The F-35 will deliver a key discriminator for Poland and its Allies for decades to come.

At less than $80 million USD, the F-35 truly is a 5th Generation aircraft at equal to or less than the price of legacy 4th Generation aircraft. With smart acquisition strategies, strong government-industry partnership and a relentless focus on cost reduction, the F-35 enterprise successfully reduced procurement costs.

Polish industrial opportunities fall into two main categories: Direct Supply Chain and Technology Transfer.

F-35 Supply Chain opportunities to support:
-- F-35 Production of more than 3,000 aircraft
-- Fleet-wide F-35 sustainment for more than 30 years
-- Modernization of in-country manufacturing expertise through participation in the most advanced 5thGen Fighter

Technology Transfer opportunities associated with:
-- Sustainment of Polish F-35, F-16, and C-130s
-- Enhancing training of pilot and maintenance personnel
-- Advancement of Space Technologies
-- Cooperation in Research & Development
-- Advancement of UAS and drone technologies

Final details on Polish industry’s involvement in the F-35 program and other associated benefits will be disclosed as we move through the acquisition process. On the F-35 program, companies are evaluated on a best-value basis and Polish industry will be given opportunities to participate in the production and sustainment of the F-35.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 80%99.html

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 03 Sep 2019, 16:24
by spazsinbad
Lockheed makes its pitch to Polish industry in exchange for F-35 deal
03 Sep 2019 Jaroslaw Adamowski

"KIELCE, Poland — American defense company Lockheed Martin is vying for a contract to supply 32 F-35 fighter jets to Poland by offering to deliver new-generation Block 4 versions and ensuring that selected components for the jets are produced by Polish manufacturers.

“If Poland decides to buy the F-35, it will receive Block 4 aircraft. This version will include a new computer, additional weapons and systems, and it will be able to be fitted with six missiles instead of four,” Greg Ulmer, the vice president and general manager responsible for the F-35 program at Lockheed Martin, told Defense News at the MSPO defense industry show. The company official said Polish defense industry players are already part of the aircraft’s global supply chain, and deliver components for F-35s.

“So far, we’ve delivered 425 F-35s, and we’re on track to deliver 131 this year. In 2018, we delivered 91 fighters; and in 2017, 66 fighters. The peak in deliveries is expected to come in 2024,” Ulmer said. “By 2030, we expect there will be 500 F-35s in Europe. Once Polish companies are approved as our supplier partners, they could make parts not only for the Polish aircraft, but also for those supplied to other countries, such as the U.S. or Japan.”..."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... f-35-deal/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2019, 02:24
by SpudmanWP
It will be so funny to watch Poland get their F-35s before Canada :)

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2019, 19:44
by charlielima223
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nd-460644/

I find this part interesting...
While only small parts of the F-35, such as landing gear, ammunition and F135 engine components are currently being produced in Poland, Ulmer says there is room to expand Polish industrial involvement.

"We are constantly looking for supply chain and there are some opportunities for new partners with cheaper costs and better quality [of products]," he says. "Technology transfer opportunities are associated with sustainment of Polish air force F-16s, F-35s and C-130s, enhancing training of pilots and maintainers, advancement in space technologies, co-operation in research and development and advancement in UAS [unmanned air systems] technology


Could this mean that Poland could potentially be a contributor/partner is the JSF Program, essentially replacing Turkey?

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2019, 01:59
by madrat
Battle of Vienna all over again, only in a more civil 2019 version.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2019, 12:59
by mixelflick
I was thinking the same. They seem to be going all in with the F-35, have been a reliable ally and the work ethic is there. LM has to be looking seriously at the possibility, and given its strategic location Poland would be a natural fit.

They clearly see the writing that's on the wall. Makes you wonder why Canada can't...

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2019, 18:58
by doge
Greece 8)
http://www.ekathimerini.com/245223/arti ... fense-deal
Ex-minister Apostolakis hails US-Greece defense deal
06.10.2019 VASSILIS NEDOS
The extension of a defense agreement between Athens and Washington, signed on Saturday, and increasing the US military presence around the country will help boost Greece’s sense of security and modernize domestic military infrastructure, according to former defense minister Evangelos Apostolakis.
In an interview with Kathimerini’s Sunday edition, Apostolakis, a former chief of the Hellenic National Defense General Staff (GEETHA), said the amendment to the Mutual Defense Cooperation Agreement (MDCA) will make it easier for the Americans to deploy ships and use additional military bases in Greece when the need arises.
“Furthermore, they will be able to build or enhance existing infrastructure so it can accommodate more troops,” he said.

Apostolakis said that Greece’s priorities should be reorganizing its military, completing the modernization of its F-16 fighter jets and upgrading its fleet of Meko frigates. But he also saw an opportunity for Greece to join the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, also following Turkey’s exclusion due to its purchase of a Russian missile defense system.

“If we were given an opportunity to quickly join the program… we could then upgrade only part of our F-16s,” he said, adding that Greece could purchase a number of F-35s instead.

Asked about Turkey’s aggression in the Eastern Mediterranean, Apostolakis said, “Turkey’s effort to impose its views and achieve its military objectives is creating problems not only for Greece but for all states” in the region.
He said he regretted that Washington has not pushed Ankara as much as Athens had hoped on the issue. “Because the Americans want to keep Turkey close to them at any cost, the pressure has been lax,” he said. “At the same time, the European Union, for reasons that we all understand, does not wish to enter in direct confrontation with Turkey,” he added.
Although Apostolakis did not rule out the chance of an “incident” in the Aegean, he said it was not in Ankara’s interest to trigger one.

“It would add yet another problem to [Turkey’s] already long list, without [yielding] any substantial benefit.”

https://www.thenationalherald.com/26334 ... nce-plans/
Greece’s Former Defense Chief Lauds US Military Presence Plans
By TNH Staff October 7, 2019
ATHENS – He served the previous ruling Radical Left SYRIZA but former defense chief Evangelos Apostolakis, an Admiral in the Greek Navy, said the extension of a defense agreement with the United States will help make the country more secure and modernize its defenses.
In an interview with Kathimerini’s Sunday edition, Apostolakis, a former chief of the Hellenic National Defense General Staff (GEETHA), said the amendment to the Mutual Defense Cooperation Agreement (MDCA) will make it easier for the Americans to deploy ships and use additional military bases in Greece when the need arises.
“Furthermore, they will be able to build or enhance existing infrastructure so it can accommodate more troops,” he said. Ironically, it was the formerly anti-American SYRIZA leader and former Premier Alexis Tsipras who moved to improve relations with the US as Greece was faced with growing Turkish aggression in the Aegean and East Mediterranean.

Apostolakis said that Greece’s priorities should be reorganizing its military, completing the modernization of its F-16 fighter jets and upgrading its fleet of Meko frigates but said there’s an opening now to join the US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program after Turkey was bounced for buying a Russian-made missile defense system that could compromise the defenses of NATO, to which both countries.

“If we were given an opportunity to quickly join the program… we could then upgrade only part of our F-16s,” he said, adding that Greece could purchase a number of F-35s instead to give Greece an edge over Turkish jets which frequently violate Greek airspace and engage in mock dogfights with responding Greek pilots.

Asked about Turkey’s aggression in the Eastern Mediterranean, Apostolakis said, “Turkey’s effort to impose its views and achieve its military objectives is creating problems not only for Greece but for all states” in the region.
Despite the US aligning itself more closely with Greece, wanting to expand American military presence in the country, he said Turkey could have been pushed more but wasn’t because Washington wants to juggle interests.
“The Americans want to keep Turkey close to them at any cost, the pressure has been lax,” he said. “At the same time, the European Union, for reasons that we all understand, does not wish to enter in direct confrontation with Turkey,” he added.
Although Apostolakis did not rule out the chance of an “incident” in the Aegean, he said it was not in Turkey’s interest to trigger one, fearing the reprisals. “It would add yet another problem to (Turkey’s) already long list, without (yielding) any substantial benefit.”

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2019, 19:28
by doge
From the WhiteHouse official site. 8)
:shock: Bulgaria gets the F-35! ? :doh: :!: :?: :!: :?: :roll:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-st ... l-meeting/
Remarks by President Trump and Prime Minister Borissov of the Republic of Bulgaria Before Bilateral Meeting
FOREIGN POLICY Issued on: November 25, 2019 Oval Office

PRIME MINISTER BORISSOV: (As interpreted.) The Bulgarians like you so much, and they expect to have the problem with the visas solved — like with Canada.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Ah, okay. Well, we’re going to work on that problem.
I want to just thank the Prime Minister of Bulgaria for being here. It’s an honor to have you at the White House, in the Oval Office. We have meetings coming up in a little while. You have your representatives. I have my representatives. And I think we’re going to have very productive meetings.
They’ve ordered some F-35s and some other things. They buy a lot of military equipment from the United States — the best equipment in the world. And I look forward to our meeting.

PRIME MINISTER BORISSOV: (As interpreted.) We have 3.1 percent of the national — 3.1 percent, instead of 2 —

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Good.

PRIME MINISTER BORISSOV: (As interpreted.) — the membership requirement of NATO.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: That’s very interesting. We’ll have to think about that, right? That’s very good. You should tell that to Germany. (Laughs.) You understand.

PRIME MINISTER BORISSOV: (As interpreted.) You will say it, sir.

PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, we have a big NATO meeting coming up very soon, as you all know. But we’ve had a very, very good relationship, and now we’re going to formalize some things. We — the relationship we have with Bulgaria has been very strong. Great people.
Okay? Thank you.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2019, 19:56
by spazsinbad

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 15:11
by mixelflick
That would really be something, Bulgarian F-35's.

As the partner nations get more experience with it, they're ordering even more than what was originally planned. Maybe not in all cases, but it's a VERY good sign. Look at Israel... they're not dumb, they know when they've got a winner.

Lockheed Martin is only getting bigger, which is somehow exciting and scary at the same time. Never did I think they'd be building fighters for the USAF and other branches, but here we are. They're a great company, pay a terrific dividend and are rapidly approaching an area where few US defense contractors have ever ventured - a complete monopoly. Not sure whether that's a good or bad thing. Boeing may be given corporate welfare to continue building SH's and F-15EX's, but this is akin to Mig's position on the world stage IMO (minus its state owned status).

They better get a novel stealth design at least on the drawing boards, because that ship is sailing out of Fort Worth and it doesnt' look like it's coming back..

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 01:23
by kimjongnumbaun
mixelflick wrote:Boeing may be given corporate welfare to continue building SH's and F-15EX's, but this is akin to Mig's position on the world stage IMO (minus its state owned status).


The funny thing is that the F-18 and F-15 were originally McDonnell Douglas aircraft. Boeing absorbed them in a merger. I have serious doubts Boeing is going to produce any top end fighters in the future.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 17:34
by blindpilot
kimjongnumbaun wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Boeing may be given corporate welfare to continue building SH's and F-15EX's, but this is akin to Mig's position on the world stage IMO (minus its state owned status).


The funny thing is that the F-18 and F-15 were originally McDonnell Douglas aircraft. Boeing absorbed them in a merger. I have serious doubts Boeing is going to produce any top end fighters in the future.


If we are going to nit pick, let's at least get it right.

The design and production resources, plants, engineers, people etc. for the the F-15/18 et al are core St. Louis McDonnell resources. "They" designed and built post WW II, (WW II were parts manufacturers), the Navy jets FH-1 Phantom, F-2H Banshee, F-3H Demon, and Air Force XF-88, and F-101 Voodoo fighters. Then of course the ubiquitous F-4 Phantom II's.

Douglas with whom they merged made DC-3,DC-8 etc. Cargo planes, and attack bombers like SBD Dauntless and A-26 Invader. Aside possibly from Spaz's very solid A-4 Skyhawk design, they didn't do "fighters." So that means McDonnell from St. Louis, not "McDonnell Douglas" did the fighter work (and still does) from the same core business element in St. Louis.

So if Boeing is poo-pooed, so should McDonnell Douglas. We're talking about the same company/heritage as the old carrier Banshee guys. And as seen in the Super Hornet obsession by the US Navy, it's the core "aircraft carrier fighter jet" guys. Boeing HQ just writes the paychecks, just like McDonnell Douglas HQ did before.

FWIW,
BP

PS Along these lines the F-22/35 isn't Lockheed either. It's the Dallas Ft Worth General Dynamics group. And Lockheed doesn't do Space/Missile work either. That's Martin Marietta well ...actually Martin (see Titan II missiles) ... Yeah ... mergers... :D :D

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 17:54
by quicksilver

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2019, 00:39
by outlaw162
Aside possibly from Spaz's very solid A-4 Skyhawk design, they didn't do "fighters."


Navy and Marine F3D Skyknights (later F-10) shot down some MiGs....at night. :shock: More than any F-101 or F3H.

Navy and Marine F4D Skyray was a pretty solid 'fighter', both carrier and land based. First supersonic carrier based 'fighter'. Although the USN eventually preferred the Fury. Not McDonnell, North American. :D

Skyraider, though not technically a 'fighter', was a helluva fighter.....one CMH earned.

Let's be fair.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 03:40
by lbk000
The Hornet pedigree goes even further back to Northrop (funnily enough Ed Heinemann was also a Douglas acquisition from Northrop).
And General Dynamics was once Convair -- not exactly "fighter people".

Aside from that though BP's right, it's the individuals and their experience that count. It doesn't matter the brand you acquire if you can't keep the people that came with it.

You notice though how no company really survived it's teen series fighter? GD was gone after the F-16, McD was done after the F-15, and Grumman put its fighter days behind it after the F-14.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2019, 19:36
by doge
Discuss...Wait for the follow-up report. 8)
https://greece.greekreporter.com/2019/1 ... f-35-jets/
Greek PM to Discuss With President Trump Purchase of F-35 Jets
By Tasos Kokkinidis -Dec 30, 2019
Greek premier Kyriakos Mitsotakis announced in an interview published on Sunday that he will raise the possibility of Greece acquiring the state-of-the-art F-35 fighter jet during his meeting with President Trump at the White House on January 7.
“We can deepen our defense cooperation even further, for example in the sector of drones. We will also begin a discussion on eventually acquiring F-35 aircraft, once fiscal conditions permit,” Mitsotakis said speaking to Greek newspaper To Vima.
The F-35 is a stealth, fifth-generation, multirole combat aircraft, designed for ground-attack and air-superiority missions. It is built by Lockheed Martin and many subcontractors, including Northrop Grumman, Pratt & Whitney, and BAE Systems.

Washington is threatening to remove Turkey from the F-35 program due to its purchase of the S-400 Russian air defense system.
The National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) which was passed by Congress and is now awaiting the President to sign it into law prohibits the transfer of the F-35, or its parts, to Turkey over its purchase of the Russian S-400 anti-air missile system.
The Greek premier also said that Greece and the U.S. were now “closer than ever” and that Greece, as a reliable ally of America, expects that this be confirmed through actions, not just words.

He hailed the vote on the East Med Act as a “historic development” and said that U.S. support for the East Med pipeline acknowledged the necessity of diversifying energy supply sources to Europe.
Combined with the Alexandroupolis Floating Storage and Regasification Unit (FSRU), this placed Greece well and truly on the global energy map, he added.
“With President Trump we will talk about investments. He is known for his business acumen. I am certain that he won’t want American businesses to miss the opportunity of participating in Greece’s success story!” Mitsotakis added.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2020, 21:29
by pron
Defense Minister Nikos Panagiotopoulos said on Thursday Greece is interested in acquiring a squadron(20 planes?) of US-made F-35 fighter jets in the coming years as part of its plan to reclaim its superiority over Turkey in air defence.
The minister said the upgrade of the Hellenic Air Force’s F-16 to the Viper version will be starting in the coming days, adding that the process will take about seven to eight years.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/248238/arti ... -16s-f-35s

Another blow to Erdogan if Greece get F-35.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 01:16
by madrat
Greece has the same issue as Turkey, they buy Russian.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2020, 01:52
by marsavian
The S-300 Greece took from Cyprus, as Turkey was its normal belligerent self about it, and put it on Crete instead and now F-35s and other NATO fighters practice against it ;). Greece does not normally buy Russian hardware.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 23 Jan 2020, 14:59
by spazsinbad
Negotiations ‘almost complete’ on Poland’s buy of 32 F-35s, defense minister says
23 Jan 2020 Jaroslaw Adamowski

"WARSAW, Poland — Polish Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak said Jan. 22 that next week Poland “will finalize the deal on the purchase of F-35” Lightning II fighter jets. The negotiations to buy 32 aircraft from the U.S. “are almost complete” and “the first units will be ready [for delivery] in 2024,” Blaszczak told local broadcaster Polish Radio....

...The defense minister did not disclose the final value of the procurement. Last September, Following the State Department’s approval of the potential sale for an estimated $6.5 billion, Blaszczak said his ministry hoped to obtain a preferential price tag for the aircraft, similarly to Warsaw’s acquisition of Patriot missiles from Raytheon.

To reduce the fighters’ price tag, the defence ministry has reportedly decided not to sign an offset agreement with the U.S. side. Sources close to the deal told daily Dziennik Gazeta Prawna that the final contract could be worth about $4 billion, including logistics and training."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ster-says/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 19:23
by gyllis1
Poland to sign the 4.6bn purchase on friday:
https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/poland-f35/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2020, 21:53
by joost
And it is now a fact, today Poland became the latest F-35 customer!
32 F-35, deliveries from 2024 onwards.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... hter-jets/

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2020, 22:01
by basher54321
https://www.defence24.com/harpia-fighte ... l-unveiled


A single example of the F-35 will have a pricetag of 87.3 million dollars for the Polish taxpayer, as Defence24.pl found out, after asking questions to the spokesman of the Polish MoD’s Armament Inspectorate, Major Krzysztof Płatek. We have also unveiled new details pertaining to the agreement signed today.

Delivery Timeline

Polish F-35A deliveries would begin in 2024. Delivery of the first 6 out of 32 ordered examples is scheduled to happen between 2024 and 2025. Then 4-6 airframes per year would be delivered, until 32 examples are received in 2030. “The first 6 aircraft will be temporarily deployed to one of the airbases in the United States of America, for the sake of training the Polish Air Force aircrews and ground crews”, representative of the Armament Inspectorate told us. Considering the cost of training and the process adopted so far by the F-35 export users, we may speculate that the above refers to the Luke AFB. The first jets are expected to arrive in Poland between 2025 and 2026. According to the US Embassy in Poland, the Polish AF are to declare IOC with F-35A until 2028.

Configuration

“The F-35A jets will be delivered in configuration that would be standard for all of the users receiving the jets that are series manufactured and planned to be delivered between 2024 and 2030. They would be equipped with the latest Block 4 software. The agreement also includes a modernization package that envisages that upgrades introduced later on would be implemented on the aircraft delivered before those upgrades. Płatek also confirmed that the Polish jets would be fitted with drogue chutes.



Extras Package

The Armament Inspectorate also confirmed that Poland is getting a single spare engine which means that the Air Force would receive 33 engines, 32 of which would be fitted onto the jets.

The agreement also includes:

Ground support equipment and pilots’ equipment,
Ground training equipment for airbases, Integrated Training Centre and 8 Full Mission Simulators included,
Full logistics support package within the framework of the Global Support Solution, valid until 2030,
Operational support IT system for the F-35A,
Training for 24 pilots, up to the instructor level as well; training for 90 members of the tech support personnel; both to happen in the US.
Finances

“The value of the LOA agreement covering delivery of 32 F-35A jets with Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines and a single spare engine, along with a logistics and training package, is defined as USD 4.6 bn. Taking the Value Added Tax into account related to the value of the military equipment supplies in Poland, the value of the deal, on the date of conclusion, is defined as PLN 20.7 billion. Unit price for a single F-35A (engine included) is USD 87.3 million, net” - major Płatek informs. He also emphasized that the Agreement has a complex profile and it includes procurement of all equipment needed to secure the operations of the aircraft acquired. The whole deal will be covered by the MoD’s budget. The payment is to be made to the US between 2020 and 2030.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2020, 23:58
by spazsinbad
DRAG Chutes for Polish F-35As makes those aircraft slightly more expensive - extra mods required during building of 'em.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2020, 12:43
by ricnunes
basher54321 wrote:https://www.defence24.com/harpia-fighter-procurement-details-polish-f-35-deal-unveiled


A single example of the F-35 will have a pricetag of 87.3 million dollars for the Polish taxpayer,

...

Unit price for a single F-35A (engine included) is USD 87.3 million, net” - major Płatek informs. He also emphasized that the Agreement has a complex profile and it includes procurement of all equipment needed to secure the operations of the aircraft acquired. The whole deal will be covered by the MoD’s budget. The payment is to be made to the US between 2020 and 2030.


USD 87.3 million per each F-35A for Poland is not bad at all! Well, that's actually excellent considering that Poland is NOT a JSF/F-35 partner nation (this is a Foreign Military Sale) and on top of that it also includes drogue chutes.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2020, 13:38
by optimist
That would be the flyaway, with a bit of support it runs to $200M

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/p ... r-aircraft
Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) Aircraft and thirty-three (33) Pratt & Whitney F-135 Engines. Also included are Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communications, Computer, and Intelligence/Communications, Navigational, and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics; software development/integration; aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and personnel services; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $6.5 billion.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2020, 14:25
by hornetfinn
optimist wrote:That would be the flyaway, with a bit of support it runs to $200M

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/p ... r-aircraft
Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) Aircraft and thirty-three (33) Pratt & Whitney F-135 Engines. Also included are Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communications, Computer, and Intelligence/Communications, Navigational, and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics; software development/integration; aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and personnel services; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $6.5 billion.


AFAIK, that "estimated cost" is usually set so that it will not be exceeded. So the real world costs might be a bit less, although you are correct that support and all the other stuff will increase costs significantly. On the other hand I think that for example ALIS likely costs quite a lot of money to buy but it likely lowers costs in the long run due to more efficient logistics and support (even if you could actually operate F-35 without it). It seems that lately these acquisitions have included pretty hefty logistics and support packages that can cover years of operation.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2020, 21:47
by optimist
Yes, it all depends on what is counted in the cost. Sweetman made a living out of wrong comparisons. There may be other docs, that give a breakdown.

I read that ALIS is out, ODIN is in
https://www.janes.com/article/93861/pen ... -35-s-alis

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2020, 22:37
by marsavian
Optimist, $6.5m was the original quote with offsets, $4.6bn is the final contract with support but no offsets ($144m per airframe). See earlier posts on this page.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2020, 01:15
by optimist
marsavian wrote:Optimist, $6.5m was the original quote with offsets, $4.6bn is the final contract with support but no offsets ($144m per airframe). See earlier posts on this page.

Ok, so it's $87m flyaway and $144m is with some support and the $200 was if they wanted offset. You can see how Sweetman made a living out of this by comparing different costs and different platforms to tell the story he wanted. :mrgreen:

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2020, 07:26
by marauder2048
hornetfinn wrote:AFAIK, that "estimated cost" is usually set so that it will not be exceeded.


I think they typically try to pad it in order to buffer against a cost increase that would require
DSCA to re-notify/re-seek approval from Congress.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 03:19
by charlielima223
This is an interesting little wrinkle
https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/02/10 ... ers-group/
However, there are some controversies over the planned purchase. General Mirosław Różański (currently retired), the former commander in chief of the Polish Army, expressed doubts in the ministry’s choice. In his opinion, F-35 is not suitable for the conditions of the Polish strategy of defense. Besides its highly offensive profile, there is a huge technological gap between the F-35 and the rest of the Polish military and lack of proper equipment to transfer information for pilots in combat. Further problems start to occur when maintenance is considered. Offset and technological transfers were set aside in this case. There are also no airfields which are currently capable of stationing the F-35.


We've seen and heard this kind of stuff before. Most likely it is a big nothing.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 07:59
by hythelday
charlielima223 wrote:This is an interesting little wrinkle
https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/02/10 ... ers-group/
However, there are some controversies over the planned purchase. General Mirosław Różański (currently retired), the former commander in chief of the Polish Army, expressed doubts in the ministry’s choice. In his opinion, F-35 is not suitable for the conditions of the Polish strategy of defense. Besides its highly offensive profile, there is a huge technological gap between the F-35 and the rest of the Polish military and lack of proper equipment to transfer information for pilots in combat. Further problems start to occur when maintenance is considered. Offset and technological transfers were set aside in this case. There are also no airfields which are currently capable of stationing the F-35.


We've seen and heard this kind of stuff before. Most likely it is a big nothing.


Poland has the second largest fleet of tanks in Europe but "strike fighters are too offensive". The general is either a paid piper for someone's lobby (more likely) or is retired for a reason.

Re: Greece, Romania, and Poland.

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 17:54
by steve2267
hythelday wrote:Poland has the second largest fleet of tanks in Europe but "strike fighters are too offensive". The general is either a paid piper for someone's lobby (more likely) or is retired for a reason.


I do think that Poland needs and should get the F-35. But they are probably somewhat sensitive to poking the big bear to their east.