FY2020 DoD Budget

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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marsavian

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Unread post03 May 2019, 07:53

marauder2048 wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:
marsavian wrote:So if Congress goes against the F-15EX they will have to provide a viable alternative to the requirements that CAPE used


Just call Daigle to testify as to the impossibility of new builds being cheaper than the SLEP.
A simple: "what happened to the F-15 C/D Wing replacement funds that had the benefit of CAPE's CY2017 analysis?"
would answer a lot of questions.


No wonder Daigle is resigning; it came out in testimony that the Air Force had estimated a longeron replacement +
fuselage SLEP + wing replacement would be all of $10 million/aircraft.

That's the lowest number that's ever been connected with the SLEP; previously it was in the $20 - $40 million range.

New builds justified on a cost-basis look insane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2860&v=7du-vfIWl2A


Agree, full SLEP for $10m is a steal. Authorize it and have only new build F-35 and PCA going forward. F-35 can eventually replace the F-15C and PCA can replace the F-15E. Anything else is a retrograde detour.
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mixelflick

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Unread post03 May 2019, 13:07

wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:


The issue is, not everyone is convinced of the F-35's air to air prowess. Dunno about you, but I never saw any details behind the 15-1, 20-1 etc record the F-35 reportedly carried coming out of Red Flag. Were F-22's assisting? What were the ROE's? Was red air really reflective of the F-35 facing SU-35's, J-10C's and J-20's? Nobody questions the F-22's prowess, because it carries with it such an overwhelming advantage everywhere you look. 800 F-22's would scare the sh!t out of any air force. You're just not going to survive vs. that kind of overwhelming superiority. A similar number of F-35's? That picture isn't as clear.

Too many unanswered questions.


Everyone whose opinion matters, is convinced of the overwhelming superiority of the F-35. The Red Flag ratios were against aircraft with IRST, DRFM jammers, HOBS missiles/helmet sights, while having a 3:1 numerical advantage and the ability to respawn 4x (or more.) The >20:1 ratio was as a result of 145 kills and 7 losses, by F-35s. The losses were due to confusion during respawning, where previously dead aircraft came back into play, while already WVR of F-35s. When F-35s have flown against AESA equipped F-15/18s the results have been the same. There have been exercises with 27:0 kill ratios. Now add in double digit SAM threats, cyberwarfare/extreme jamming, on top of numerical advantages. There is simply no other conclusion that can be reached. Read the f'n pilot anecdotes, which include WVR and BVR.


Here we have another temper tantrum thrown because something contrary to his way of thinking was proposed. These people are worse than Gripen fanboys, can't even entertain an opposing viewpoint.

I enjoyed raising your blood pressure though. Thanks again..
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wrightwing

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Unread post03 May 2019, 14:02

mixelflick wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:


The issue is, not everyone is convinced of the F-35's air to air prowess. Dunno about you, but I never saw any details behind the 15-1, 20-1 etc record the F-35 reportedly carried coming out of Red Flag. Were F-22's assisting? What were the ROE's? Was red air really reflective of the F-35 facing SU-35's, J-10C's and J-20's? Nobody questions the F-22's prowess, because it carries with it such an overwhelming advantage everywhere you look. 800 F-22's would scare the sh!t out of any air force. You're just not going to survive vs. that kind of overwhelming superiority. A similar number of F-35's? That picture isn't as clear.

Too many unanswered questions.


Everyone whose opinion matters, is convinced of the overwhelming superiority of the F-35. The Red Flag ratios were against aircraft with IRST, DRFM jammers, HOBS missiles/helmet sights, while having a 3:1 numerical advantage and the ability to respawn 4x (or more.) The >20:1 ratio was as a result of 145 kills and 7 losses, by F-35s. The losses were due to confusion during respawning, where previously dead aircraft came back into play, while already WVR of F-35s. When F-35s have flown against AESA equipped F-15/18s the results have been the same. There have been exercises with 27:0 kill ratios. Now add in double digit SAM threats, cyberwarfare/extreme jamming, on top of numerical advantages. There is simply no other conclusion that can be reached. Read the f'n pilot anecdotes, which include WVR and BVR.


Here we have another temper tantrum thrown because something contrary to his way of thinking was proposed. These people are worse than Gripen fanboys, can't even entertain an opposing viewpoint.

I enjoyed raising your blood pressure though. Thanks again..



You've been on this forum how many years, and seen how many links/anecdotes, as well as insightful commentary from other posters, reinforcing what I just said. It gets tiresome, to have to revisit previously addressed topics (especially with overwhelming supporting data.)
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marsavian

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Unread post03 May 2019, 20:08

I didn't detect any love for the F-15EX in the House during that Hearing more like WTH are you springing this on us without advance warning or debate ?!! Going by that hearing I would rate its authorization chances at 20-30%. Plenty of love for the F-35 and A-10 though. ;)
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loke

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Unread post03 May 2019, 22:14

WASHINGTON — Hurricane relief efforts at Tyndall Air Force Base will begin lapsing Wednesday due to a lack of funds, preventing the start of all new work and deferring more than 120 projects planned to begin after May 1.

But that’s just the start of the Air Force’s money problems, which have resulted in a shortfall of more than $4 billion in fiscal 2019.

If the Air Force doesn’t get that funding, it will be forced to ground combat aircraft, defer at least 61 facility repair projects at various bases and halt certain aircraft maintenance actions. Key weapons programs — like hypersonic weapons development — would be slowed down and become more costly, and non-deploying squadrons may have their flying hours stripped away, warned Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson in a March 6 memo obtained by Defense News.


Rhode Island Sen. Jack Reed, a senior member of the Senate Appropriations Committee and top Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, said the need at Tyndall and Offutt — as well as the Marine Corps’ requirement for hurricane relief at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina — "underscores the wrong priorities of the administration" after it reprogrammed roughly $1 billion in excess Army funds toward barriers on the U.S.-Mexico border.

"They could have easily moved some of that to Tyndall and Camp Lejeune and kept some of the construction projects going," Reed said. "Why are we taking $1 billion out of reprogramming and putting it at a project where the NORTHCOM commander said there's no military threat at the border? Yet we're ignoring serious storm damage at Tyndall, Offutt and Lejeune."

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/04 ... -disaster/

Oh well.

I wonder when they will cut F-35 and start re-investing in the older platforms instead...? Gotta build that wall, gotta build that wall...
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post03 May 2019, 22:54

Trump won't cut Military Funding to pay for the wall.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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loke

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Unread post04 May 2019, 07:43

SpudmanWP wrote:Trump won't cut Military Funding to pay for the wall.

That is what I have read in different places -- but it may not be true of course. There is so much fake news these days...
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mixelflick

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Unread post04 May 2019, 13:08

[/quote]

Everyone whose opinion matters, is convinced of the overwhelming superiority of the F-35. The Red Flag ratios were against aircraft with IRST, DRFM jammers, HOBS missiles/helmet sights, while having a 3:1 numerical advantage and the ability to respawn 4x (or more.) The >20:1 ratio was as a result of 145 kills and 7 losses, by F-35s. The losses were due to confusion during respawning, where previously dead aircraft came back into play, while already WVR of F-35s. When F-35s have flown against AESA equipped F-15/18s the results have been the same. There have been exercises with 27:0 kill ratios. Now add in double digit SAM threats, cyberwarfare/extreme jamming, on top of numerical advantages. There is simply no other conclusion that can be reached. Read the f'n pilot anecdotes, which include WVR and BVR.[/quote]

Here we have another temper tantrum thrown because something contrary to his way of thinking was proposed. These people are worse than Gripen fanboys, can't even entertain an opposing viewpoint.

I enjoyed raising your blood pressure though. Thanks again..[/quote]


You've been on this forum how many years, and seen how many links/anecdotes, as well as insightful commentary from other posters, reinforcing what I just said. It gets tiresome, to have to revisit previously addressed topics (especially with overwhelming supporting data.)[/quote]

Nobody asked you to compile a list of facts and figures. You took that upon yourself, then finished with a snide comment about "listen to what the f'n pilots have to say". I've heard what they have to say, and am well aware of most of the points that you made.

But because my opinion may have differed from yours, you went apesh!t. That says more about you than it does about me...
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post05 May 2019, 03:15

:doh:

I really wish people would view their posts after hitting "Submit".

It's really a pain to try and figure out the intention of what is being quoted, underlines, bolded, etc.

I'd be nice if the Submit button would not work if there are malformed BBCode tags in play.
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Unread post05 May 2019, 03:40

mixelflick wrote:
quicksilver wrote:Hmmm...that makes how many combat coded jets? What is it now? Just over 1900? That makes it the incredible shrinking Air Force.

Wrt air super’ty, seems everything not named F-22 dies when it fights F-35. So much for giving up air superiority...


The issue is, not everyone is convinced of the F-35's air to air prowess. Dunno about you, but I never saw any details behind the 15-1, 20-1 etc record the F-35 reportedly carried coming out of Red Flag. Were F-22's assisting? What were the ROE's? Was red air really reflective of the F-35 facing SU-35's, J-10C's and J-20's? Nobody questions the F-22's prowess, because it carries with it such an overwhelming advantage everywhere you look. 800 F-22's would scare the sh!t out of any air force. You're just not going to survive vs. that kind of overwhelming superiority. A similar number of F-35's? That picture isn't as clear.

Too many unanswered questions.

We can speculate all day. I don't know who everyone is and I doubt that everyone will ever be convinced. Red flag is valuable but they go to the sims for the hard stuff.
The statement from those that have all the classified stuff. As you know, you need to be up the chain to get access to all of it.
https://sldinfo.com/2016/09/becoming-an ... t-aviator/
In a recent interview 1st Fighter Wing Commander, Colonel Pete Fesler paraphrased comments made by the Commander of Air Combat Command, General Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle; “The F-35 is the best air to air (A2A) platform in the world, except for the F-22. The F-22 is the best air to ground (A2G) platform in the world, except for the F-35.”
Aussie fanboy
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wrightwing

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Unread post05 May 2019, 17:30

The point is reading comprehension, and selective memory. We can stop with the hand wringing about whether the F-35 is any good at A2A. There is no need to ever ponder this question again, as it's been well established by countless pilot anecdotes, not to mention exercise results (28:1 in the most recent Red Flag.) We can safely assume that when such statistics become available, all of the variables have already been factored in.
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quicksilver

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Unread post05 May 2019, 18:10

wrightwing wrote:The point is reading comprehension, and selective memory. We can stop with the hand wringing about whether the F-35 is any good at A2A. There is no need to ever ponder this question again, as it's been well established by countless pilot anecdotes, not to mention exercise results (28:1 in the most recent Red Flag.) We can safely assume that when such statistics become available, all of the variables have already been factored in.


X2
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loke

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Unread post05 May 2019, 18:24

Even Loke understands and knows that F-35 is far above and beyond everything else (apart from the F-22 perhaps) in the a2a field.

Anybody who understands the importance and implications of: stealth; sensors; sensor fusion will realize this. I don't even need to resort to red flag quotes. It is enough to know that the F-35 meet or exceed its requirements.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post06 May 2019, 04:26

loke wrote:Even Loke understands and knows that F-35 is far above and beyond everything else (apart from the F-22 perhaps) in the a2a field.

Anybody who understands the importance and implications of: stealth; sensors; sensor fusion will realize this. I don't even need to resort to red flag quotes. It is enough to know that the F-35 meet or exceed its requirements.



Some "still" believe many of the F-35 misconceptions even after all of this time! So, if the OSD really wants the F-15EX. Then hold a side by side fighter competition. In order to put those misconception to bed once and for all...(as it is getting old)
:roll:
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 May 2019, 17:37

Corsair1963 wrote:
loke wrote:Even Loke understands and knows that F-35 is far above and beyond everything else (apart from the F-22 perhaps) in the a2a field.

Anybody who understands the importance and implications of: stealth; sensors; sensor fusion will realize this. I don't even need to resort to red flag quotes. It is enough to know that the F-35 meet or exceed its requirements.



Some "still" believe many of the F-35 misconceptions even after all of this time! So, if the OSD really wants the F-15EX. Then hold a side by side fighter competition. In order to put those misconception to bed once and for all...(as it is getting old)
:roll:


Agree 100% with this, and while we're at it - throw the F-22 in as well (either F-22 vs F-35 or F-15EX + F-22 vs F-35). Then layer in the S 400/S 500 threat. That would cover threats such as the SU-35, SU-57/J-20 and/or SU-35 + SU-57/J-20 (plus S-400/500). That's an extreme example of what the F-35 would face in the future, but that's what's needed IMO to properly flush this thing out.

If they're already done this, I'm all ears.
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