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Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2019, 11:31
by spazsinbad
My brain hurts attempting to follow US Budgets - everyone has one and no one can decide on a final one until - ONE DAY.
Here is all the firepower the Pentagon is asking for in its $718 billion [FY2020] budget
26 Apr 2019 Amanda Macias

"Key Points
The Defense Department is asking Congress for $718 billion in its fiscal 2020 budget, an increase of $33 billion or about 5% over what Congress enacted for fiscal 2019.

The Navy and Marine Corps request $205.6 billion, up $9.9 billion from fiscal 2019; the Air Force calls for $204.8 billion, up $11.8 billion from the last request... from fiscal 2019....

• 78 F-35 fighters: $11.2 billion

• 24 F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet fighters: $2 billion

• 8 F-15EX fighters: $1.1 billion..."

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/26/breakdo ... quest.html

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2019, 15:00
by blindpilot
spazsinbad wrote:My brain hurts attempting to follow US Budgets - everyone has one and no one can decide on a final one until - ONE DAY.


Here is how us Yanks start learning this stuff in pre-school.
Warning! This is just for generic laws. Budgets are much more complicated!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFroMQlKiag

FWIW,
BP

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2019, 01:05
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:My brain hurts attempting to follow US Budgets - everyone has one and no one can decide on a final one until - ONE DAY.
Here is all the firepower the Pentagon is asking for in its $718 billion [FY2020] budget
26 Apr 2019 Amanda Macias

"Key Points
The Defense Department is asking Congress for $718 billion in its fiscal 2020 budget, an increase of $33 billion or about 5% over what Congress enacted for fiscal 2019.

The Navy and Marine Corps request $205.6 billion, up $9.9 billion from fiscal 2019; the Air Force calls for $204.8 billion, up $11.8 billion from the last request... from fiscal 2019....

• 78 F-35 fighters: $11.2 billion

• 24 F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet fighters: $2 billion

• 8 F-15EX fighters: $1.1 billion..."

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/26/breakdo ... quest.html


Keyword is "request" as the budget is months away from being "finalized". Trust me a lot of negotiating going on behind the scenes. Between three principals.....(OSD, USAF, and Congress)

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2019, 01:10
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:If, the OSD/USAF go thru with buying the F-15EX. That decision will be attacked and ridiculed for years to come. As a "colossal mistake"......

:shock:


Didn't stop Gates from going stupid on the F-22...



This would be far bigger..... :shock:

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2019, 14:53
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:If, the OSD/USAF go thru with buying the F-15EX. That decision will be attacked and ridiculed for years to come. As a "colossal mistake"......

:shock:


Didn't stop Gates from going stupid on the F-22...



This would be far bigger..... :shock:


Dunno about that. Cancelling the F-22 set this whole sh!tshow in motion. With not enough Raptors to go around, the F-15C got tapped for double duty. Already an ancient airframe, just maintaining them has become a nightmare. That, according to a mechanic I spoke with from the 104th fighter wing here in MA.

Next, Gates decided to "accelerate" the F-35 program. Then the developmental difficulties started, leading to a delayed service entry date. Since the F-35 isn't perceived as holding an overwhelming advantage air to air like the F-22, it hasn't been pushed into the air to air role. Instead, thinking shifted back to the F-15 and F-16, with the F-15 taking center stage. They know the F-15C isn't going to cut it post 2020, so they elect new build airframes. Now it's eating into the F-35 buy, and nobody has the stones to say enough is enough: Give us more F-35's, it's the best we can do.

They build this thing and it'll have ramifications for around a decade, until PCA gets here. Cancelling the F-22 will be haunting us far longer, and has in fact put US air superiority in jeopardy for the first time since the 1950's. Gates should lose his pension, and be held up as an example of what 1 bad decision can do to not just the branch, but our country as a whole.

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2019, 20:07
by marauder2048
According to the arguments being advanced for the F-15X, any extended F-22 buy would not have
addressed the major problems since their argument is that you shouldn't employ 5th gen in the sort of NORAD,
air policing, standoff-for-non-existent weapons, unproven-arsenal plan concepts that they are envisioning.

The argument goes that there would still have been wear-and-tear on the F-22 fleet @ higher operating cost
and that you would still want to preserve those aircraft for the high-end fight.

The F-22's continued production would have solved at least one major problem: keeping Boeing credible as a
producer of fighters capable of operating in the high-end threat environment.

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 00:37
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
Dunno about that. Cancelling the F-22 set this whole sh!tshow in motion. With not enough Raptors to go around, the F-15C got tapped for double duty. Already an ancient airframe, just maintaining them has become a nightmare. That, according to a mechanic I spoke with from the 104th fighter wing here in MA.

Next, Gates decided to "accelerate" the F-35 program. Then the developmental difficulties started, leading to a delayed service entry date. Since the F-35 isn't perceived as holding an overwhelming advantage air to air like the F-22, it hasn't been pushed into the air to air role. Instead, thinking shifted back to the F-15 and F-16, with the F-15 taking center stage. They know the F-15C isn't going to cut it post 2020, so they elect new build airframes. Now it's eating into the F-35 buy, and nobody has the stones to say enough is enough: Give us more F-35's, it's the best we can do.

They build this thing and it'll have ramifications for around a decade, until PCA gets here. Cancelling the F-22 will be haunting us far longer, and has in fact put US air superiority in jeopardy for the first time since the 1950's. Gates should lose his pension, and be held up as an example of what 1 bad decision can do to not just the branch, but our country as a whole.


The cornerstone of tactical aviation is the Strike Fighter. As dedicated "Air Superiority" is only a small part of the equation. This while the F-35 is more than capable of doing that role. In short if you had to choose between the two (F-22 and F-35) the choice is obvious....

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 01:35
by crosshairs
Corsair1963 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
Dunno about that. Cancelling the F-22 set this whole sh!tshow in motion. With not enough Raptors to go around, the F-15C got tapped for double duty. Already an ancient airframe, just maintaining them has become a nightmare. That, according to a mechanic I spoke with from the 104th fighter wing here in MA.

Next, Gates decided to "accelerate" the F-35 program. Then the developmental difficulties started, leading to a delayed service entry date. Since the F-35 isn't perceived as holding an overwhelming advantage air to air like the F-22, it hasn't been pushed into the air to air role. Instead, thinking shifted back to the F-15 and F-16, with the F-15 taking center stage. They know the F-15C isn't going to cut it post 2020, so they elect new build airframes. Now it's eating into the F-35 buy, and nobody has the stones to say enough is enough: Give us more F-35's, it's the best we can do.

They build this thing and it'll have ramifications for around a decade, until PCA gets here. Cancelling the F-22 will be haunting us far longer, and has in fact put US air superiority in jeopardy for the first time since the 1950's. Gates should lose his pension, and be held up as an example of what 1 bad decision can do to not just the branch, but our country as a whole.


The cornerstone of tactical aviation is the Strike Fighter. As dedicated "Air Superiority" is only a small part of the equation. This while the F-35 is more than capable of doing that role. In short if you had to choose between the two (F-22 and F-35) the choice is obvious....


I'll say the choice is or was obvious: 800 F-22A/B/C and 0 F-35A and 220 to 240 FB-22 along with at least 90 B-2A. Stocking up the USAF with nothing but a jack of all trades and master of nothing strike fighter who had to have the knematics requirement rewritten because of its sluggishness is the biggest blunder I hope I ever live to see. An air force not built to win air superiority first and foremost isn't much of an air force - its a mistake. Navair is now living that reality.

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 02:10
by Corsair1963
crosshairs wrote:
I'll say the choice is or was obvious: 800 F-22A/B/C and 0 F-35A and 220 to 240 FB-22 along with at least 90 B-2A. Stocking up the USAF with nothing but a jack of all trades and master of nothing strike fighter who had to have the knematics requirement rewritten because of its sluggishness is the biggest blunder I hope I ever live to see. An air force not built to win air superiority first and foremost isn't much of an air force - its a mistake. Navair is now living that reality.



As been discussed many times over. You can't make the F-22 into a Strike Fighter similar to the F-35. Unless, it was designed that way from the start. Plus, even if you could it would be far more expensive than a similar number of F-35's.

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 03:51
by quicksilver
Hmmm...that makes how many combat coded jets? What is it now? Just over 1900? That makes it the incredible shrinking Air Force.

Wrt air super’ty, seems everything not named F-22 dies when it fights F-35. So much for giving up air superiority...

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 15:00
by mixelflick
quicksilver wrote:Hmmm...that makes how many combat coded jets? What is it now? Just over 1900? That makes it the incredible shrinking Air Force.

Wrt air super’ty, seems everything not named F-22 dies when it fights F-35. So much for giving up air superiority...


The issue is, not everyone is convinced of the F-35's air to air prowess. Dunno about you, but I never saw any details behind the 15-1, 20-1 etc record the F-35 reportedly carried coming out of Red Flag. Were F-22's assisting? What were the ROE's? Was red air really reflective of the F-35 facing SU-35's, J-10C's and J-20's? Nobody questions the F-22's prowess, because it carries with it such an overwhelming advantage everywhere you look. 800 F-22's would scare the sh!t out of any air force. You're just not going to survive vs. that kind of overwhelming superiority. A similar number of F-35's? That picture isn't as clear.

Too many unanswered questions.

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 15:03
by spazsinbad
Please list your 'unanswered questions' for our delectation.

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 16:32
by SpudmanWP
Were F-22's assisting?

How do you think they could help an F-35 obtain an A2A kill?

The target is not going to see the F-35 or F-22.
The F-22 cannot spot the target without alerting the enemy when he calls out the bogey over the radio (unless there was a BACN nearby).
The F-22 cannot shoot down the target and give the F-35 the kill.
The F-22 cannot jam the enemy's radar.

If anything the F-35 would help the F-22s as it is not limited by the above constraints.

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 18:29
by quicksilver
“Too many unanswered questions.”

And for interweb warriors, those questions will forever remain so.

Re: FY2020 DoD Budget

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 18:45
by mixelflick
SpudmanWP wrote:
Were F-22's assisting?

How do you think they could help an F-35 obtain an A2A kill?

The target is not going to see the F-35 or F-22.
The F-22 cannot spot the target without alerting the enemy when he calls out the bogey over the radio (unless there was a BACN nearby).
The F-22 cannot shoot down the target and give the F-35 the kill.
The F-22 cannot jam the enemy's radar.

If anything the F-35 would help the F-22s as it is not limited by the above constraints.


Everybody calm down. Jesus, its as if I just attacked you or your family. Not everyone is as convinced as you are, that's all I'm saying. The F-22 can't jam the enemy's radar? If that's true, someone really screwed up.

So why are the Japanese pursuing a higher end air superiority fighter vs. the F-35? The Brits? They both have F-35's, and no small numbers of them. And for that matter, why aren't we retiring F-22's for more F-35's? It isn't exactly cheap to operate...