FY2020 DoD Budget

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 13:47

As highlighted, other users have already funded the radar-ew improvements eg the apg-63 now -82 is adjusted to operate in conjunction with the tews/dews. -81 has advantage of higher gain because the ew is routed thru the tr modules but the f-15's Apu generates a lot of power.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 17:14

marsavian wrote:Ok, I can see the distinction but I don't naturally assume it doesn't have EA abilities as well but that may have to await further confirmation. The F-35 APG-81 itself is described in this EP terminology too ...

While there is info on the EP capabilities of the APG-81, there are also tons of info on it's EA capabilities too.
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quicksilver

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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 18:30

“If you are going to win the F-35 Vs F-15EX argument in Congress you have to beat the cheaper base/long life/maintenance cost narrative being put out in favor of the F-15EX.”

This. ^

On other matters, EP is not EA. Nor is EP just an interference blanker for the other stuff that is radiating on a jet.
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 19:23

So what happens if you add a jamming pod eg ngj to the f-15?

How about mald-j launch platform?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 20:03

You make it slower and able to carry less.
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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 21:42

weasel1962 wrote:So what happens if you add a jamming pod eg ngj to the f-15?



You spend money on integration it on an an additional platform when the F-35 (and SH) will already carry it. You will also spend money on developing doctrine, and get less performance due to barn door rcs of F-15.

Of course, this is probably not accounted for in the CAPE assessment and piled on top of the other upgrades an 'orphan' fleet counting a few hundreds will need out to 2060s. (with those 16-20k hours the refresh fleet will enjoy a life in excess of 25 years past the retirement of active F-15s). Obviously all this will be done on existing infrastructure, no new tools, simulators, etc. will be needed before the X retires closing on the centennial celebration of its first flight of type.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 23:53

gc wrote:USAF requesting a dozen more F-35A in their unfunded list. If budgeted will push USAF F-35A procurement up to 60 in 2020.

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... -List.aspx



The Air Force wants to buy 12 additional F-35A strike fighters and three more KC-46 tankers as part of its $2.8 billion fiscal 2020 unfunded priorities list, after requesting no aircraft in last year’s version.


On top of the Air Force’s $165.6 billion budget request for 2020, the new slate of unfunded requirements asks Congress for twice as much money as the service did in its 2019 UPL. Readiness tops the list of priorities, followed by cyber-hardening space assets, aircraft procurement, and advanced technology development.


Adding a dozen more F-35As in 2020 would bring the Air Force’s total buy of Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighters that year to 60. Each new F-35A carries a $90.8 million price tag, so the total cost of the 12 fighters would cost $1.1 billion—the same as the eight fourth-generation F-15EX jets the service wants to buy from Boeing starting next year.



It's worth noting the USAF says it needs at least "72" New Fighters per year. Yet, the math of an all F-35 fleet is 72. (60+12=72). While, a mix of F-35A's and F-15EX's come up short! (60+8=68) Of course not to mention the fact the Lightning is vastly more capable than the Eagle to boot.
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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 00:56

The Air Force Wants More F-35s In FY 2020: Congress Needs To Step In [BEST READ AT SOURCE]
26 Mar 2019 Dave Deptula

"The U.S. Air Force is operating a fighter aircraft inventory on the brink of disaster. The vast majority of its fighter aircraft were designed at the conclusion of the Vietnam War, were produced in the 1980s, and are increasingly not capable of meeting future threats. The F-15C’s structural integrity limits mean that fleet’s airworthiness will come to an end in the early/mid-2020s. An immediate change in defense policy and resourcing is required to ensure U.S. air superiority meets the urgent and pragmatic real-world security objectives of the 2018 national defense strategy....

...instead of investing in more modern F-35s, the Pentagon’s 2020 budget request seeks billions of dollars for new-built F-15EXs—an aircraft design whose roots extend back to the late 1960s. As Secretary of the Air Force Heather Wilson made clear on Feb 28, this was not an Air Force judgment; “Our budget proposal that we initially submitted did not include additional fourth-generation aircraft.” Seemingly oblivious to its own 2018 national defense strategy and reorientation to great-power contests, the Office of the Secretary of Defense (OSD) drove this decision.

According to a senior defense official briefing to media on Mar 22, the rationale was based on three major elements:

------The need to rapidly increase Air Force fighter force structure
------Cost
------Industrial base diversity


The first is a no-brainer. Today’s fighter aircraft average 28 years old with that age growing annually. The Air Force Chief of Staff has stated he needs to buy 72 aircraft a year to reverse that trend and eventually bring the average age down to 15 years. Bizarrely, however, the Pentagon’s proposed 2020 budget would deliver just eight F-15EXs in, “3 to 3.5 years after contract award” (Air Force FY 2020 Justification Book Volume 1 of 2 Aircraft Procurement, (I-22)).

Here’s a much better solution: Congress shifts the money from F-15EX to increase F-35A production. Of note, the Air Force’s unfunded priority list for FY 2020 includes an additional 12 F-35As. By increasing F-35 production from 48/yr. to 60/yr. in 2020, then 78-80 beyond 2020, the Air Force could have an additional 108 F-35s by 2023/24 instead of an anemic additional 8 F-15EXs.

Now let’s look at cost. The Office of the Secretary of Defense claims the new F-15EX unit cost will be about $90 million per copy. Today the F-35A runs about $89 million per copy and is expected to decline to about $80 million in 2020. OSD notes, however, that sustainment costs for the F-35A are greater than the F-15EX. That is a questionable assumption as the F-35A program matures, its sustainment costs are headed down to similar levels as F-15s.

More to the point, OSD’s myopic focus on unit and sustainment costs ignores the actual costs necessary to accomplish desired objectives against the priority threats of the national defense strategy. Unlike F-35, the F-15EX will require additional specialized support aircraft to jam radars, defeat enemy fighters, and negate surface-to-air-missile systems. Those assets, which were not part of OSD’s justification analysis, will drive up requirements for pilots and support personnel, along with additional mission support aircraft such as air-to-air refueling tankers. Against peer threats, the cost of achieving a desired effect with F-15EX is dramatically higher than the same effect delivered from an F-35A.... [BEST READ AT SOURCE - believe me]

The Air Force has seen this act before. These are the same circumstances that led to the curtailed F-22 buy, which is the real cause of today’s aging F-15 fleet. Had we purchased the necessary number of F-22s, today’s F-15Cs would be sunning themselves in desert boneyards today. One difference: This time, it would also impact the Navy, Marine Corps, and allied partners who are also buying the F-35.

...The answer to the Air Force’s fighter modernization challenge is clear. The F-35A is specifically designed to meet future combat requirements. The F-15EX is not. The nation must increase F-35 procurement rates and add resources to the next generation air dominance (NGAD) program to supplement a dangerously undersized F-22 fleet. Today’s fighter force mix is imbalanced with 80 percent fourth-generation and only 20 percent fifth-generation aircraft. The Air Force needs to increase the fifth-generation side with the F-35A as fast as possible."

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davedeptul ... o-step-in/
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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 01:29

The Air Force wants to buy 12 additional F-35A strike fighters and three more KC-46 tankers as part of its $2.8 billion fiscal 2020 unfunded priorities list, after requesting no aircraft in last year’s version.



Congress added (16?) total on top of the 77 requested last year.

Yes that’s correct, had to double check, 77 requested and a total of 93 enacted in FY2019.

Edit- breakdown was 8 additional F-35A (56) out of 48 requested. Perhaps adding 12 to unfunded priorities is to reiterate what the USAF position has been. No F-15EX, and more F-35A.
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weasel1962

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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 02:38

Delays to procurement rate of 60 As has been reflected in the explanatory statements in past defense appropriation bills. Nothing to do with F-15EX. The addition to FY 2019 per the joint explanatory statement is 8 A, 4 C (USN), 2 C (USMC) and 2 B.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 04:59

Steve Trimble Retweeted Steve Trimble

Rep Matt Gaetz notes Lockheed Martin's commitment to reduce operating cost of F-35A to $25,000 per hour by 2025, then compares that to information that apparently DOD provided him showing that F-15X would cost $27,000-$30,000 per hour.


https://twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1 ... 3238421504
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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 06:31

The Hourly Cost Of Operating The U.S. Military's Fighter Fleet [Infographic]
16 Aug 2016 Niall McCarthy

Graphic: http://blogs-images.forbes.com/niallmcc ... ghters.jpg

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccar ... fographic/
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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 06:37

Those are over 1.5 years old and the F-35 has dropped significantly and those navy numbers are way too low.
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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 07:21

Air Force wish list includes more F-35s, tankers... and some money for advanced tech to confuse Russia & China
26 Mar 2019 Valerie Insinna

"
WASHINGTON — Twelve additional F-35s and three KC-46 tankers rank among the Air Force’s wish list of items it would like to have, but couldn’t afford in its fiscal year 2020 budget. The service’s annual unfunded priorities list, which was obtained by Defense News and first reported by Inside Defense, was sent to Congress this week.

The Air Force places additional F-35s and KC-46s as its third-highest priority on the list — and the most expensive. With an extra $2 billion, the service would seek an increase of 12 F-35A conventional models, three KC-46 tankers, associated spares for both aircraft, and long-lead funding for F-35s in FY21....

...60 F-35As in FY20. The 60 A-models, together with the eight F-15X aircraft requested by the Air Force, would get it within striking distance of its goal of procuring at least 72 fighter jets per year, which Chief of Staff Gen. Dave Goldfein has said is needed to ensure the Air Force maintains capacity as it modernizes its combat aircraft inventory.

In the past, lawmakers have been fairly receptive to funding big-ticket items on the services’ wish lists, especially aircraft like the F-35 and the Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, which garner deeply-entrenched support from the congressional delegations where those platforms are produced...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/03 ... and-china/
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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 07:42

SpudmanWP wrote:Those are over 1.5 years old and the F-35 has dropped significantly and those navy numbers are way too low.


I agree, those numbers seem to be done using very different accounting methods. F-16 costs are also way too low except for maybe direct flight hour costs. I found this which is very interesting, although naturally is also filled with normal GAO bitching and moaning...

https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/694408.pdf

It seems like F-16, Hornet and Super Hornet have pretty similar operating costs. Too bad there are no F-35 or even F-15 costs here. But AFAIK F-35A figure in that picture is pretty much correct for 2016. Also there are no accurate numbers of flight hours flown during the year, so these must be estimated.
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