India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 17:22
by sunstersun
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 246_1.html

Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter

It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A - the air force version of the fighter that incorporates "conventional take-off and landing"
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
Last Updated at February 14, 2018 20:40 IST

Business Standard learns the IAF top brass is formally requesting for a classified briefing by the F-35’s prime builder, Lockheed Martin, on the capabilities of the sophisticated, fifth-generation fighter developed under the US Joint Strike Fighter programme.
The US government has not formally offered the F-35 to India. A classified briefing would require formal clearance from the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) and the State Department. The grant of such a clearance would be an important first step towards permitting the sale of F-35s to India.
It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A – the air force version of the fighter that incorporates “conventional take-off and landing”, or CTOL. Another variant, the F-35B, incorporating “short take-off and vertical landing”, or (STOVL), has been developed for the US Marine Corps. A third version, developed for the US Navy, incorporates “catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR).

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 18:42
by tsl256
sunstersun wrote:<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/capability-jump-iaf-looks-to-buy-fifth-generation-f-35-fighter-118021401246_1.html</span>

Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter

It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A - the air force version of the fighter that incorporates "conventional take-off and landing"
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
Last Updated at February 14, 2018 20:40 IST

Business Standard learns the IAF top brass is formally requesting for a classified briefing by the F-35’s prime builder, Lockheed Martin, on the capabilities of the sophisticated, fifth-generation fighter developed under the US Joint Strike Fighter programme.
The US government has not formally offered the F-35 to India. A classified briefing would require formal clearance from the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) and the State Department. The grant of such a clearance would be an important first step towards permitting the sale of F-35s to India.
It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A – the air force version of the fighter that incorporates “conventional take-off and landing”, or CTOL. Another variant, the F-35B, incorporating “short take-off and vertical landing”, or (STOVL), has been developed for the US Marine Corps. A third version, developed for the US Navy, incorporates “catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR).


Smart move by India, 126 F-35s would serve as an excellent counterweight against China's growing 5 gen fleet, however I don't see a deal like this going through any time soon due to India's close ties with Russia.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 20:42
by mixelflick
It (the F-35) is really their only option. This speaks volumes about what the future holds for the SU-57.

I'm going to make a prediction and say India will be allowed to buy it. I know that's a long shot, but surely there are safeguards insofar as the tech falling into the wrong hands? We're exporting it all over the world. Cripes, I'd say Turkey worries me more than the Indians. There is some precedent for doing business with US aircraft makers - the C-17. And I think some helicopters as well. Granted, the F-35 is a big jump but this could be the beginning of something big: India buys from us from now on.

If we could set them up with 120+ and bring them more in line with our interests, might be a great big counter-weight to the Chinese in the SCS. I'd say the risk they pull an Iran/F-14 on is is minimal..

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 20:47
by XanderCrews
That's cray cray. Seems like only yesterday they were looking for 126 of another fighter which shall remain nameless.

Rassault Dafale

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 20:56
by skyward
There is a more likelihood that Canada getting the F 35 then the India. India is all talk right now and no plans at all for anything.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 14 Feb 2018, 21:04
by spazsinbad
There is another recent article stating LM has denied offering the good stuff to India:

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 456_1.html

Then in the OP article above: http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 246_1.html
"...The Indian Navy, which has never ruled out operating the F-35 off Indian aircraft carriers, has received a briefing on the F-35 as far back as 2010, Lockheed Martin official Orville Prins told this correspondent.... [SHIRLEY that brief is still relevant today (with some caveats about whatever problems way back then)]

...The F-35’s affordability is also attractive for New Delhi. In contrast to the bare-bones price of $115 million for each Rafale fighter (with India-specific enhancements, spares, logistics and weapons all extra), the F-35A cost customers $94.6 million last February. Lockheed Martin says it will reduce the cost to $80 million by 2020...

...While the US has supplied the F-35 only to close allies, Washington insiders say India’s recent designation as a Major Defence Partner (MDP), and a groundswell of goodwill towards New Delhi, make conditions propitious for an Indian request. An indicator is the recent permission granted for the sale to India of the Sea Guardian unmanned aerial vehicle – so far sold only to close allies.

In 2011, the influential US Senate Armed Services Committee requested the Pentagon to study the feasibility of an F-35 sale to India. Senators John Cornyn (co-chair of the Senate India Caucus) and Joseph Lieberman spearheaded the proposal...."

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 00:51
by marsavian
Well that's kind of the way the wind has been blowing due to their discomfort with Su-57 stealth and price and the emergence of the J-20 on their border. I suspect it will be sold to them to counter China and Pakistan and they will end up buying hundreds in the end to replace everything except the Su-30 and Rafale.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 02:36
by Corsair1963
Honestly, I see no major issue with the US selling India the F-35. Yet, I don't see them offering ToT or license production....(at this stage)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 03:55
by white_lightning35
Hey guys I got a great idea!! Let's throw in a few b-21's with the f-35 deal to India as well!!1! I mean, why not!!!? It's not like the f-35 is supposed to be the best the US gov has or anything, or that exporting the f-35 willy-nilly would ever have negative consequences, right?!! I mean, Turkey's already gonna have it, so why not India or anyone else who can afford it? PLUS now Pakistan will want it, or else Uncle Sam would betraying them to India. Tbh, I think the US should just send a few f-35's directly to the Chinese and Russians to save India, Turkey and co. the trouble. What a genius plan! What could possiby go wrong?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 04:54
by Corsair1963
white_lightning35 wrote:Hey guys I got a great idea!! Let's throw in a few b-21's with the f-35 deal to India as well!!1! I mean, why not!!!? It's not like the f-35 is supposed to be the best the US gov has or anything, or that exporting the f-35 willy-nilly would ever have negative consequences, right?!! I mean, Turkey's already gonna have it, so why not India or anyone else who can afford it? PLUS now Pakistan will want it, or else Uncle Sam would betraying them to India. Tbh, I think the US should just send a few f-35's directly to the Chinese and Russians to save India, Turkey and co. the trouble. What a genius plan! What could possiby go wrong?



The said the same thing about selling F-15's to the Saudi's back in the day.....

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 09:01
by hythelday
Indian stronkism websites aren't a reliable source!

Case the point:
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 288_1.html

"100s" of Avengers turned out to be 22 unarmed Predators.

Such publications serve several purpises:
1) Stronkism ( hahaha, Pakistan, go beg China for more handouts; US is OFFERING us top tech!)
2) Leverage (over Dassault, UAC, SAAB)
3) Clicks

That being said, we have F-35/India discusssion going on in at least 4 different threads. Maybe it is just me, but starting another thread (based on BS article, no less) seems excessive.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2018, 09:12
by spazsinbad
Tell us about your credibility then? Multiple threads on the same topic are a specialization of this forum doncha know.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 02:39
by sunstersun
https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/report- ... -briefing/

confidently say that guy was spilling the beans early.

India is officially on track.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 03:01
by white_lightning35
What the absolute f##k? Am I just blind to seeing how this would be a good deal? Would this all be just to try to buddy up to India? Are the few extra sales just that important? I sincerely hope this is just clickbait journalism running amok.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 03:13
by popcorn
white_lightning35 wrote:What the absolute f##k? Am I just blind to seeing how this would be a good deal? Would this all be just to try to buddy up to India? Are the few extra sales just that important? I sincerely hope this is just clickbait journalism running amok.

Look at this in the context of the US working toward achieving a closer strategic relationship with the world's largest democracy. The considerations implications for trade, security cooperation. geopolitics, etc. that factor in any relationship between nation states are far more expansive than "a few extra sales" that would be generated by selling F-35s to India.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 03:23
by white_lightning35
I did touch on that with my post: "Would this all be just to try to buddy up to India?" It appears then that India is playing a double game here. I agree that it would be great to have India firmly on "our side", so to speak, but how realistic that is is what I am wondering. It's unimportant, but still just unfortunate to me that such a great plane could be relegated to simple bargaining chip status.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 05:07
by lbk000
I think a key issue here is not actually India, but Pakistan. Any realignment with India would be a boon in that it would not only check Chinese influence in the area, but also Pakistan's ever-increasing boldness in playing China and the US against each other.
Yet at the same time from a geostrategic perspective, losing Pakistan to China would frustrate US force projection in the Middle East. Were it only that Afghanistan wasn't a complete shitshow...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 06:32
by element1loop
popcorn wrote:
white_lightning35 wrote:What the absolute f##k? Am I just blind to seeing how this would be a good deal? Would this all be just to try to buddy up to India? Are the few extra sales just that important? I sincerely hope this is just clickbait journalism running amok.

Look at this in the context of the US working toward achieving a closer strategic relationship with the world's largest democracy. The considerations implications for trade, security cooperation. geopolitics, etc. that factor in any relationship between nation states are far more expansive than "a few extra sales" that would be generated by selling F-35s to India.


Can India continue to fence-sit in the old Cold War era 'non-alligned movement' camp in the face of J-20, J-31 stealth air power threat? I think not.

Can USA sell F-35A to a non-alligned non-Alliance state? I think not.

Can India afford to forego F-35A? I think not.

In otherd words, India would have to propose to enter into a formal full-spectrum military alliance relationship with the USA.

That should be what Washington requires for a sale to proceed.

That's a resonable prerequisite in the circumstances.

The Indians may be getting ready to propose that.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2018, 10:55
by popcorn
https://thediplomat.com/2018/02/report- ... -briefing/

Report: India Requests Classified F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Briefing

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is formally requesting a classified briefing by U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin on the capabilities of its fifth-generation stealth multirole F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II, the aircraft’s conventional takeoff and landing version, according to Indian media reports.

The United States has not formally offered the aircraft to India and any classified briefing would require clearance by the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of State. The Business Standard reports that the IAF would possibly be interested in procuring up to 126 F-35As from the United States as a deal for 126 French-made Dassault Rafale multirole fighter aircraft fell through...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2018, 02:54
by steve2267
In the FWIW category, I personally am far more comfortable with India getting F-35's than, say, Turkey. Or Pakistan. Or UAE or Saudi Arabia.

And if that helps build better relations / commerce with India, great. I don't know how well developed India is in terms of electronics factories etc, but I'd much prefer to be sourcing electronic tech / parts from India, than from PRC.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2018, 03:18
by popcorn
Like the article says toward the end, I think F-16 is the more likely option for India if they buy American. OTOH, if by some circumstance they seriously pursue the F-35 at some point, I think the "Made in India" impediment is fungible as the IG can always cite national security concerns to trump it. Other offsets can be negotiated.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2018, 03:47
by white_lightning35
steve2267 wrote:In the FWIW category, I personally am far more comfortable with India getting F-35's than, say, Turkey. Or Pakistan. Or UAE or Saudi Arabia.

And if that helps build better relations / commerce with India, great. I don't know how well developed India is in terms of electronics factories etc, but I'd much prefer to be sourcing electronic tech / parts from India, than from PRC.


India has it's own niche right now, but that isn't trying to compete with China in manufacturing. The West buys things from China because it can't afford not to, as of now, but I'm not sure if India will ever replace China in that regard. It's obviously never smart to say what the future will be like, but I don't think what happened with China will happen with India. China's economy succeeded in the past 40 years because its people did what they were told by the government, or else they'd be shot. India is a democracy, which means that pesky things like free speech and different opinions will get in the way of growing like China did. So I don't think that India will be able to replace China, in this sense.

A little off-topic, but just my thoughts.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2018, 04:35
by element1loop
white_lightning35 wrote: ... China's economy succeeded in the past 40 years because its people did what they were told by the government, ...

A little off-topic, but just my thoughts.


China grew predominently because, for decades the CCP told Chinese banks what their credit quota was for that quarter, and God help them if they did not lend that much cash into the resulting credit 'economy'. The result? Fastest debt growth in all of human history. Now does a mountain of debt cancel-out a mountain of unaffordable GDP 'growth', purchased on the national credit card? Michael Pettis is an excellent source on the (off-topic} process, and the long-term implications.

http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinan ... kets/75355

It's what you would do if you wanted to fake being a capitalist market-economy, in order too fool everyone that you're a genuine economic success story, and destined to become the biggest economy, and biggest military power.

Nope.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2018, 10:42
by milosh
popcorn wrote:Like the article says toward the end, I think F-16 is the more likely option for India if they buy American. OTOH, if by some circumstance they seriously pursue the F-35 at some point, I think the "Made in India" impediment is fungible as the IG can always cite national security concerns to trump it. Other offsets can be negotiated.

F-16XL

8)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2018, 20:28
by juretrn
milosh wrote:F-16XL
8)

Given that thing lost to F-15E...

F-15IN?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2018, 21:11
by basher54321
juretrn wrote:Given that thing lost to F-15E...

F-15IN?


.....In a faux fly off to keep F-15 production going - is no measure of how good it was. :wink:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2018, 02:22
by XanderCrews
basher54321 wrote:
juretrn wrote:Given that thing lost to F-15E...

F-15IN?


.....In a faux fly off to keep F-15 production going - is no measure of how good it was. :wink:



Lol f-15e is hard to beat

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2018, 13:50
by mixelflick
An advanced F-15 for India would surely be interesting. I would not however, allow them to gain the upper hand vs. Chinese j-20's and 31's.

For that, they'll need the F-35 (or the sales video for Gripen, LOL)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 00:13
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:An advanced F-15 for India would surely be interesting. I would not however, allow them to gain the upper hand vs. Chinese j-20's and 31's.

For that, they'll need the F-35 (or the sales video for Gripen, LOL)


India don't have problem with big fighters just look how many MKI they have, what they lack is something smaller which can replace MiG-21, Jaguar and MiG-27. F-16 could fit in that role, not expensive and it is proven but it would be even better to offered them F-16XL if they want to buy F-35.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 01:25
by nutshell
The very first thing India should do, is to embrace the West, fully; joining Nato if necessary.


Btw, something is happening to the Chinese economy tho. Several big Chinese corporations are getting their investment blocked by the gov. The last one i know of is Suning group (which makes me happy becaue, FU F.C. Internazionale).

Bubble about to burst?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 02:27
by marsavian
India is nowhere near the Atlantic so it's never joining NATO. If it makes a deal with the US it would be bilateral like the one with Japan. India has had strong links with Russia as the US has had with Pakistan but things are changing. I doubt they would be interested in F-16s when Pakistan has them, they are currently being offered to take over the whole production line and are still lukewarm about it, purely because I believe they don't want to have similar aircraft to Pakistan otherwise they would already have gone for it.

No, if it can't get F-35 look for Gripen-E or MiG-35 to replace its lighter fighter bombers and in the longer term either a home grown stealth fighter or the new European one planned.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 02:35
by popcorn
Who knows> India didn't mind buying Flankers after it's arch rival China had ordered them. If India did acquire the F-16, it would be in a stronger position vis-a-vis Pakistan.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 02:47
by marsavian
The Su-30 MKI is a more advanced TVC/canard Flanker than the Chinese ones at least until Su-35 arrives. There is no future F-16 variant planned that would be appreciably better than the Pakistan ones or that they couldn't upgrade to. F-35 is their first choice especially to counter Chinese stealth planes. If not I think Gripen-E with maybe a GaN AESA upgrade looks the most promising alternative followed by TVC MiG-35. The latter is definitely the cheapest option.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 03:49
by popcorn
marsavian wrote:The Su-30 MKI is a more advanced TVC/canard Flanker than the Chinese ones at least until Su-35 arrives. There is no future F-16 variant planned that would be appreciably better than the Pakistan ones or that they couldn't upgrade to. F-35 is their first choice especially to counter Chinese stealth planes. If not I think Gripen-E with maybe a GaN AESA upgrade looks the most promising alternative followed by TVC MiG-35. The latter is definitely the cheapest option.


LM would disagree with you about the latest F-16 variant superiority vs. what Pakistan flies.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 03:54
by SpudmanWP
The only thing that the F-16V does not have is an IRST (other than Sniper Pod functions).

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/ ... y_2017.pdf

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 04:09
by weasel1962
Legion pod.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 04:14
by SpudmanWP
That's always an option. I was speaking of stock items.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 04:35
by weasel1962
Just wanted to highlight also that the Pakistani F-16s are not AESA-equipped. The Indian Su-30MKI is also fairly outdated (no AESA either), unlike some of the latest Chinese flanker iterations. Even the proposed Zhuk-AE is a 2007 AESA.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 08:43
by nutshell
I seriously doubt the "Atlantic" part is a literal requirement.

You know east europa Turkey and stuff.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 21:40
by cryptex1
weasel1962 wrote:Just wanted to highlight also that the Pakistani F-16s are not AESA-equipped. The Indian Su-30MKI is also fairly outdated (no AESA either), unlike some of the latest Chinese flanker iterations. Even the proposed Zhuk-AE is a 2007 AESA.


qnwkuo.jpg


x4puei22.png


I think the outdated radar problem is being addressed as we speak of for the Su-30MKI in regards to those 2 images. I cant tell if the Indians are too cheap or focusing on quantity over quality. I believe one of their complaints about the T-50 was that it was expensive along with faulty issues and now I am seeing rumors about a 5th gen su-35 or (super sukhoi)

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/10 ... n.html..... I am under the impression they are looking for cheap aircraft which is why it is highly unlikely for me to see a SU-57 or F-35 deal anytime soon.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2018, 19:19
by sunstersun
https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 0267873280

new tender for aircraft.


single twin don't matter.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 01:12
by hythelday
From the source article:

These will be under ‘make in India’ and to get global manufactures to have a production line in India


This immediately excludes F-35 and makes F-16 the strongest contender.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 01:25
by popcorn
sunstersun wrote:https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/status/966515490267873280

new tender for aircraft.


single twin don't matter.

Another day, another tender. :roll:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 01:50
by marsavian
hythelday wrote:From the source article:

These will be under ‘make in India’ and to get global manufactures to have a production line in India


This immediately excludes F-35 and makes F-16 the strongest contender.


Saab are offering the same thing via local partner Adani group. This should be a straight shoot out between the two and India is quite thorough in its evaluations so the future leaked report should make interesting reading. Dassault was not impressed at the time with their Rafale industrial partner who make the Su-30MKI which was why India will only get French built Rafales.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/s ... 601033.ece
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 840745.ece

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 02:10
by hythelday
marsavian wrote:Saab are offering the same thing via local partner Adani group. This should be a straight shoot out between the two


I'll take the freedom to say that hundreds of jets is too lucrative of a deal for US to not support their own LM in a competition against SAAB. Gripen E has too many US parts in it to freely compete. After all, we've all heard about evil american imperialist lobby in "F-35 vs Gripen" thread...

Besides, consider the following: 1) LM has already manufactured F-16s abroad (this would have been much more substantial argument if only Indians weren't Indians), SAAB has not 2) LM will be much more willing to part with F-16 production line since they have the next big thing, SAAB doesn't; so unless Swedish Royal Air Force wants to fly Indian-made Gripen Es (they don't) their offer won't be able to beat LM's.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 02:28
by marsavian
Technically though the Pakistanis will be able to separately upgrade their F-16s to more or less block 70 standard (unless blocked by the US govt) so where would the differentiation be ? The only possible differentiation I see is if India also use the 32 klb engine that's in the UAE F-16E.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 06:25
by weasel1962
Addressing the few posts made.

The Zhuk-AE Aesa version radar for Su-30mki isn't exactly new. Carlo Kopp already discussed this in relatively detail since 2008.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html

The main issue is the 1st gen AESA has relatively low TR modules at 652. This is expected to be scaled up but few details at this stage. I have no doubt the Russian will get there. However, the main point I'm making is that nations that develop their own tech tends to improve and implement the improvements fairly quickly. New Chinese iterations appear in every block of fighters that they make. Same applies to their missiles. How different is the Su-30mki leaving the HAL assembly today compared to those first made in 1996?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

http://www.india.com/news/india/governm ... e-2909468/

Looks like MMRCA 2 is back on track. No idea why since having the same tenderers with the same criteria will just lead to the same result. Changing the criteria will just lead to even more challenges which was the main thing to avoid. Welcome to the wacky world of Indian procurement.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2018, 07:56
by tsl256
marsavian wrote:Technically though the Pakistanis will be able to separately upgrade their F-16s to more or less block 70 standard (unless blocked by the US govt) so where would the differentiation be ? The only possible differentiation I see is if India also use the 32 klb engine that's in the UAE F-16E.


It would be unwise to upgrade Pakistan's F-16s to block 70, especially with their close ties to China.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2018, 09:13
by popcorn
The IAF denies requesting a briefing on the F-35.



https://www.google.com.ph/amp/zeenews.i ... 85496.html


NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has categorically rejected reports that it has approached global US defence contractor Lockheed Martin for a classified briefing on F-35 Lightning II muti-role fighter jets.


Reacting to reports, IAF Chief BS Dhanoa said that no such request for procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II aircraft has been made to the US.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2018, 10:47
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:The IAF denies requesting a briefing on the F-35.



https://www.google.com.ph/amp/zeenews.i ... 85496.html


NEW DELHI: The Indian Air Force (IAF) has categorically rejected reports that it has approached global US defence contractor Lockheed Martin for a classified briefing on F-35 Lightning II muti-role fighter jets.


Reacting to reports, IAF Chief BS Dhanoa said that no such request for procuring the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II aircraft has been made to the US.


Honestly, don't believe it as India has few options. Plus, requesting information is hardly committing to buy the F-35. In addition are we to believe India has no issue with the PAK-FA/FGFA Program too.... :doh:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2018, 11:19
by weasel1962
IAF chief just categorically denied and refuted the report that IAF has asked for a f-35 briefing. The original report was "fake news".

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 09:38
by loke
Oped listing the main reasons why the F-35 is currently not a good fit for India:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/ ... YRjAL.html

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 11:44
by weasel1962
That's the reason why IAF should go ahead with legacy US aircraft (F-16 or F-18) first before going onto F-35. It helps to built up operability first. One might argue that the Harrier would have offered some base to work into an F-35B or F-35C variant operation but there is now a capability gap with the Harrier retirement which in any case was only a very small squadron.

The Rafale makes sense because the IAF is moving from a M2000 baseline to a more highly advanced aircraft. Note all of the F-35 users are all US legacy fighter users which makes the transition easier. It can be done but there's a lot more risk going straight into operating an F-35.

Whilst the IAF has some hang-ups over operating F-16s, buying F-18E/Fs now for the CVs, can provide a transition. Having said that, its still going to be a challenge to do so.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2018, 19:29
by marauder2048
loke wrote:Oped listing the main reasons why the F-35 is currently not a good fit for India:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/ ... YRjAL.html



From the article

India’s notoriously lax data hygiene and operational security.


F-35 integration and sovereignty issues pale in comparison.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2018, 01:08
by popcorn
Groundhog day. Looks like FGFA is truly dead as the intent was for it's tech to fold into AMCA.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/19 ... evelopment

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 17:10
by zerion
U.S. Pacific Command Boss Mentions Potential Sale Of F-35 To India

Just as India's once again hits the reset button on its premier fighter aircraft procurement program and becomes ever more disillusioned with Russia's 5th generation fighter offering, the head of U.S. Pacific Command has supposedly stated that he supports the sale of F-35s to India. This would be the first official admission that such a possibility is even on the table, although The War Zone has long suspected this would be the case.

First reported on by Stratpost.com, during a recent House Armed Services Committee hearing USPACOM boss Admiral Harry Harris Jr. is quotes as stating the following:

“At the moment, India is considering a number of U.S. systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for India’s large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for India’s multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of SeaGuardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/us ... ar-BBKe5vt

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 07:42
by sunstersun

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 08:02
by weasel1962
India procurement speed is measured in decades. It took 20 years to decide to contract for the Hawk trainer, its taken 2+ decades to buy an MRCA...sort of. It will be several decades before India inducts a 5G fighter even if the button to procure is pressed today.

The reality is that today India does not have the funds to buy anything other than the Tejas. Not even certain the 36 Rafale contract funds have been allocated. That probably explains the FGFA saga more than any specific IAF grouse against the program.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 08:03
by spazsinbad
Who's afraid of the FGFA?


Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 08:10
by element1loop

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2018, 14:08
by sunstersun

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Apr 2018, 16:04
by mixelflick
Although it's a long shot, I think India in the end will opt for the F-35...

They can talk all day about developing an indigenous stealth design, but c'mon.. That takes tons of money (they don't have), expertise (they might have, if the US helps them) but more importantly - time. The Russians are almost a decade along with the SU-57 and.... it going a notch above nowhere fast. Building 5th gen birds isn't easy, and it sure ain't fast. By the time they got an indigenous design in service the Chinese will have thousands of J-31's and have at least a few hundred J-20's.

Plus, you need only look at Tejas for how their latest domestic program turned out.

The FGFA is dead. Eurocanards and updated F-16's and 18's aren't cutting it either. New Flankers? Nice to have but they'll be at a disadvantage vs. Chinese stealth birds too. The F-35 is available TODAY, will likely be around $85 million/copy by the time they pull the trigger and there's a carrier variant too.

The ONLY choice is the F-35 IMO. It'll be cheaper than the competition, better all around and by that time - a mature design, probably with more powerful engines and weapons...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2018, 02:03
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:Although it's a long shot, I think India in the end will opt for the F-35...

They can talk all day about developing an indigenous stealth design, but c'mon.. That takes tons of money (they don't have), expertise (they might have, if the US helps them) but more importantly - time. The Russians are almost a decade along with the SU-57 and.... it going a notch above nowhere fast. Building 5th gen birds isn't easy, and it sure ain't fast. By the time they got an indigenous design in service the Chinese will have thousands of J-31's and have at least a few hundred J-20's.

Plus, you need only look at Tejas for how their latest domestic program turned out.

The FGFA is dead. Eurocanards and updated F-16's and 18's aren't cutting it either. New Flankers? Nice to have but they'll be at a disadvantage vs. Chinese stealth birds too. The F-35 is available TODAY, will likely be around $85 million/copy by the time they pull the trigger and there's a carrier variant too.

The ONLY choice is the F-35 IMO. It'll be cheaper than the competition, better all around and by that time - a mature design, probably with more powerful engines and weapons...


Every airforce in the world should get an F-35, that's a fact. Whether it could is a different story.

It's not about "if?" regarding India, it's "how?" they would get it.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2018, 02:01
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:Although it's a long shot, I think India in the end will opt for the F-35...

They can talk all day about developing an indigenous stealth design, but c'mon.. That takes tons of money (they don't have), expertise (they might have, if the US helps them) but more importantly - time. The Russians are almost a decade along with the SU-57 and.... it going a notch above nowhere fast. Building 5th gen birds isn't easy, and it sure ain't fast. By the time they got an indigenous design in service the Chinese will have thousands of J-31's and have at least a few hundred J-20's.

Plus, you need only look at Tejas for how their latest domestic program turned out.

The FGFA is dead. Eurocanards and updated F-16's and 18's aren't cutting it either. New Flankers? Nice to have but they'll be at a disadvantage vs. Chinese stealth birds too. The F-35 is available TODAY, will likely be around $85 million/copy by the time they pull the trigger and there's a carrier variant too.

The ONLY choice is the F-35 IMO. It'll be cheaper than the competition, better all around and by that time - a mature design, probably with more powerful engines and weapons...



I've said all along that the F-35 is the only real viable option for India. That said, I don't see the US allowing India to produce the F-35 at this stage...

So, most likely scenario would be. That India would produce a hundred or so F-16's short-term. While, acquiring a modest number of F-35's as part of a package deal. Then when production is finished with the F-16 order. The US would consider allowing India to produce the F-35 under license.

Note: Such a deal could also include help with the development of the AMCA.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2018, 05:05
by sunstersun
Such natural partners, shame Indian bureaucracy gets in the way. Fair to India USA has messed up a lot.

India acquiring would be the equivalent of Real Madrid acquiring Ronaldo.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 14:03
by talkitron
Here is a nice article on the cancellation of India’s purchase of an indigenized variant of the Su-57. The so-called FGFA program is likely cancelled and the article speculates the F-35 is in India’s future.

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/04 ... d.html?m=1

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 14:06
by popcorn
India just dodged a bullet.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 15:54
by spazsinbad
:doh: One door closes and another door closes. :wtf: Mebbe. Who NOSE!? This is INDIA goldarnit! Anything can happen.
Admiral: Don't Sanction India for Buying Russian 'F-35 Killer' Missiles
20 Apr 2018 Richard Sisk

"Adm. Phil Davidson, the nominee to take over U.S. Pacific Command, has warned against sanctioning India for buying Russian arms that could include a proposed $6 billion deal for S-400 Triumf anti-air missiles billed as "F-35 killers" by Moscow.

The growing strategic partnership between the U.S. and India to counter China should take precedence over sanctions, Davidson said in written responses to questions ahead of his Senate Armed Services Committee (SASC) confirmation hearing Tuesday. Davidson noted his "concern for our defense relationships in the Indo-Pacific with countries such as India, Vietnam, and Indonesia."...

...The proposed S-400 deal could potentially make India liable under the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) signed by President Donald Trump last August. The Act targeted Russia for its interference in the 2016 presidential elections and its aggression in Crimea and Ukraine. The Act required the president to sanction any country that strikes "highly-significant" agreements with Russia's defense industry....

...The U.S. also faces a dilemma on whether to impose sanctions on NATO ally Turkey for its own estimated $2.5 billion deal to purchase S-400s from Russia. Putin was in Ankara earlier this month to seal the deal with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Several other nations, including Iraq, have expressed interest in acquiring the S-400s rather than the U.S. Patriot surface-to-air missile defense system made by Raytheon. The interest in the S-400s has been heightened by the perceived failure of the U.S. Patriot systems to protect the Saudi Arabian capital of Riyadh against missile launches by Houthi rebels in Yemen."

Source: https://www.military.com/defensetech/20 ... siles.html

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 16:05
by ricnunes
talkitron wrote:Here is a nice article on the cancellation of India’s purchase of an indigenized variant of the Su-57. The so-called FGFA program is likely cancelled and the article speculates the F-35 is in India’s future.

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/04 ... d.html?m=1


Oops for the Su-57/FGFA... :devil:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 22:19
by sunstersun
lol @ russia

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 22:56
by juretrn
Given Indian experiences with "reliability" of MiG-29K and Su-30MKI I must say I'm not surprised.

Pictured below: a week's supply of spare parts for a squadron of Su-57.
Image

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 21 Apr 2018, 07:10
by mk82
juretrn wrote:Given Indian experiences with "reliability" of MiG-29K and Su-30MKI I must say I'm not surprised.

Pictured below: a week's supply of spare parts for a squadron of Su-57.
Image



Make that 2 container ships lol!

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 00:11
by vilters
What? Don't they have a Superglue company?

A hammer, a screwdriver, gallons of superglue, and 2 new engines/flight hr.

And in those containers?
The "smart" Russians are selling "air" in those containers so the stupid Indians can pump it in the tires.
LOL.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 18:39
by mixelflick
talkitron wrote:Here is a nice article on the cancellation of India’s purchase of an indigenized variant of the Su-57. The so-called FGFA program is likely cancelled and the article speculates the F-35 is in India’s future.

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/04 ... d.html?m=1


Wow. Finally...

Stick a fork in SU-57, it's done. Without funding, it's doubtful it'll proceed past the 12 pre-production aircraft now earmarked for service. Without that Indian $, they'll either have to find a new partner (UAE?) or forgoe a true stealth aircraft altogether.

Methinks the SU-57 will just wind up being the ultimate expression of the Flanker..

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 04:50
by talkitron
mixelflick wrote:Stick a fork in SU-57, it's done. Without funding, it's doubtful it'll proceed past the 12 pre-production aircraft now earmarked for service. Without that Indian $, they'll either have to find a new partner (UAE?) or forgoe a true stealth aircraft altogether.


The new tank called the T14 Armata will enter service soon. Even if the Su-57 flops on the export market in the near future, I think it will be procured domestically and will eventually secure some export sales.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 05:09
by Corsair1963
talkitron wrote:Here is a nice article on the cancellation of India’s purchase of an indigenized variant of the Su-57. The so-called FGFA program is likely cancelled and the article speculates the F-35 is in India’s future.

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/04 ... d.html?m=1




Many of us have said that India would leave the program. So, I doubt this is really much of a surprise to most???


So, now the Million Dollar question is can Russia really afford to go it alone???

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 06:23
by weasel1962
The reality is that Russia has went in alone from day 1 on the T-50 and now Su-57 program. The aircraft is already flying and the real question is how many will Russia produce.

Sweden has an economy a few times smaller than Russia but managed to maintain the gripen. With its economic size (esp PPP consideration), its a given that Russia will manufacture the Su-57 in numbers... even if it will require several container ships for spares. This is really one product that would benefit from 3D printing.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 08:18
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:The reality is that Russia has went in alone from day 1 on the T-50 and now Su-57 program. The aircraft is already flying and the real question is how many will Russia produce.

Sweden has an economy a few times smaller than Russia but managed to maintain the gripen. With its economic size (esp PPP consideration), its a given that Russia will manufacture the Su-57 in numbers... even if it will require several container ships for spares. This is really one product that would benefit from 3D printing.



No, it's not a given that Russia will produce the Su-57 in numbers. First, odds are good it won't be ready for at least a decade. Second, even Russian Sources state the price will be over $100 Million. Which, will only increase with India leaving the program. So, Russia may not be able to afford the Su-57. Anymore than the US did with the Raptor.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 08:33
by Corsair1963
Speaking of price and numbers. I could see Russia acquiring the J-31 from China at some point. As Russia has nothing in the F-35/J-31 class of fighters. (critically important)



It's also worth noting that the J-31 is already equipped with Russian Engines. These could be followed by Russian Avionics. If, adopted by the Russian Air Force. This would make it far more palatable to Russian Pride.... :wink:


"IMHO" 8)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 08:37
by citanon
weasel1962 wrote:The reality is that Russia has went in alone from day 1 on the T-50 and now Su-57 program. The aircraft is already flying and the real question is how many will Russia produce.

Sweden has an economy a few times smaller than Russia but managed to maintain the gripen. With its economic size (esp PPP consideration), its a given that Russia will manufacture the Su-57 in numbers... even if it will require several container ships for spares. This is really one product that would benefit from 3D printing.


Sweden bought the F414 from GE, the radar from SELEX, and is doing a much less ambitious aircraft that is not any where near VLO. Russia is doing everything on its own chasing after their first true stealth fighter.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 08:42
by spazsinbad
"...true stealth..."? INDIA does not think so.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 08:45
by gideonic
Have no fear. In a few minutes, Milosh (or some troll-brigade™ member form whatever country, certainly not Russia) will jump in, telling that PAK-FA is already more capable than F-35 and F-22 combined.

Not only that, even more capable engines and radars will come out tomorrow ... no, yesterday! And Russia will have 0 development and/or production issues, the gap between West and them has only been shrinking since the 90s. And finally, none of the PR stunts: Flying protoypes to Syria, or flying with the new engine in the end of last year (as in good old soviet times, when all the huge "achievements" miraculously tended to happen just before the year-end) have absolutely nothing to do with trying to impress India, or other potential customers.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 08:58
by weasel1962
Russia will not buy the J-31. Can't really remember the last time Russia actually had non-Russian planes (other than UAVs) in inventory. WW2?

The only thing holding back full production of the Su-57 is the new engine. I think its a matter of time. What "numbers" of Su-57 will be produced by Russia right now is a waste of time arguing. They've built 14 prototypes with 11 flying and 12 more in LRIP. That's not the kind of numbers that suggest under 200 in terms of overall program. Having said that, the F-22 stopped at 195 including test units from 650 planned in the beginning so yes, no plan is ever cast in stone.

Its good to set the context of what realistically the "numbers" entail, by looking at the state of RuAF. Mig-31, they've built over 200 with 100+ in service. Both Mig-29 and Su-27 series, they've got ~400+ each in service. Numbers produced in Russian context will go no where near China.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 09:41
by milosh
Engine and sensors will be developed because they could use them for Flankers. Problem is manufacturing cost of Su-57 (materials, tolerances, production line etc), if Su-57 cost +100 million as Corsair wrote then it would be hard to justify it when Su-35 cost them ~30 million. And when Su-57 will be ready they could get Su-35 with same engine and sensors.

Buying J-31 isn't option either because Chinese will not sell it cheap, they said it would cost 70 million but I wouldn't expect it would be over 80 millions. That is lot more expensive then Su-35.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 10:04
by weasel1962
Its of course $100+m when Russia quotes to India for participation. Its significantly less when the russkis build it themselves.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 13:26
by hythelday
gideonic wrote:Have no fear. In a few minutes, Milosh (or some troll-brigade™ member form whatever country, certainly not Russia) will jump in, telling that PAK-FA is already more capable than F-35 and F-22 combined.


Hold your horses, milosh has his own preferences (don't we all?) but he is a reasonable user, definitely a "real person" and not a wewuz-style keyboard commando.

IF the report is true, then it is indeed a setback for PAK FA, but I do not think it kills the entire program, yet. I expect that fairly soon Advanced Super Flanker XT (looking at you, Boeing) will emerge to fill the export void (and UAC pocets) left by delayed Su-57. After all, there are still plenty of vacant numbers between 35 and 57.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 15:59
by ricnunes
hythelday wrote:After all, there are still plenty of vacant numbers between 35 and 57.


And even more if you use decimal point numbers :mrgreen:

But yes, I tend to agree with everything you wrote in your post.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 16:21
by sunstersun
No people believing the Russians can push this program through without Indian support are deluding themselves. The airframe is still heavily metal, one of the major improvements were going to be composite materials. The engines are unfinished, no where near done. Russian economy is tanked, and their military industrial capacity has taken a major major major hit post Ukraine.

Expect flanker "5th gen" avionic upgrades.

While upgrading the PAKFA to 5+++++ gen, which is why they delay it.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 16:59
by ricnunes
sunstersun wrote:No people believing the Russians can push this program through without Indian support are deluding themselves.


For my part, I don't think that I'm "deluding myself" and yes, I believe that the Russians will push this program through.
IMO the question here is how many Su-57s will Russia be able to field? If you tell me that the Russia will field no more than 30 (thirty) or so Su-57s than I would be ready to believe in such assessment.
If you say that the Su-57 will be less capable than initially planned (by the Russians) than I would also be ready to believe in such assessment.
But saying that Russia will cancel the Su-57, I don't think so (for a "myriad" of reasons)...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 17:13
by mixelflick
You are probably right... they will likely produce something. How many of this something is hard to tell. At over $100 million apiece, it's likely 200 or under. Perhaps way under.

They may also dumb it down quite a bit, throwing the towel in on stealth (havent' they already?) and instead focus on long range AAM's/sensors and "supermaneuverability".

Let's be honest though: The Indian withdrawal is a big blow to the program. 5th gen tech takes big $, and they're hurting economically. They also (supposedly) are developing a Mach 4, Mig-31 follow on, a VSTOL fighter, updated TU-160's, PAK DA stealthy bomber etc.. That's going to take whole lotta' rubles, and the PAK FA is a money pit already, showing no signs it'll be getting cheaper anytime soon...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 18:19
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:...

Let's be honest though: The Indian withdrawal is a big blow to the program. 5th gen tech takes big $, and they're hurting economically. They also (supposedly) are developing a Mach 4, Mig-31 follow on, a VSTOL fighter, updated TU-160's, PAK DA stealthy bomber etc.. That's going to take whole lotta' rubles, and the PAK FA is a money pit already, showing no signs it'll be getting cheaper anytime soon...


You just listed a whole bunch of projects that'll get thrown under a bus in a second in order to concentrate efforts on PAK FA. PAK DA already became an updated Tu-160. Russian VSTOL is a mystical creature that serves no purpose for the Russians themselves and has close to zero export markets. If only there was time they were serious about that one was when oil was 120$/barrel. Remember when Rogozin promised Russian moon base by 2020? He's a funny guy, look him up. Much like Chemical Ali, but only more obese. MiG-31 follow on will probably become a MiG-31M with a hypersonic missile. Apparently Russians are making decent progress on those.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 19:17
by marsavian
Once they have a definite production model a certain number of Su-57 will be turned out every year like the everlasting Super Hornet and for similar reasons, to keep Sukhoi's factories humming. Planned production shifted to Su-35 as the Su-57 keeps getting delayed but will shift back again once development is finally done. This is why the Mig-35 is being bought by the Russians themselves as well as being exported, to keep Mikoyan factories busy.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 06:42
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:Russia will not buy the J-31. Can't really remember the last time Russia actually had non-Russian planes (other than UAVs) in inventory. WW2?

The only thing holding back full production of the Su-57 is the new engine. I think its a matter of time. What "numbers" of Su-57 will be produced by Russia right now is a waste of time arguing. They've built 14 prototypes with 11 flying and 12 more in LRIP. That's not the kind of numbers that suggest under 200 in terms of overall program. Having said that, the F-22 stopped at 195 including test units from 650 planned in the beginning so yes, no plan is ever cast in stone.

Its good to set the context of what realistically the "numbers" entail, by looking at the state of RuAF. Mig-31, they've built over 200 with 100+ in service. Both Mig-29 and Su-27 series, they've got ~400+ each in service. Numbers produced in Russian context will go no where near China.


Sorry, Russia isn't the Great Power of the Cold War Era anymore. As a matter of fact her economy is closer to Australia or Canada in GDP. So, don't expect Russia to be able to keep up with the US or China in the coming years. Hell, at the current rate India is going to blow rate by her too!

In my opinion Russia made a "COLOSSAL MISTAKE"! :doh: When she decided to develop the PAK-FA (Su-57) over the far more exportable Liogkiy Mnogofunktsionalniy Frontovoi Samolyet (LMFS). This poor decision is giving China the future non-Western Fighter Market! My guess is China will slowly overtake Russia as the leading non-Western Arms Exporter. That is just a reality that Russian Supporters are going to have to learn to live with. Yet, if you want to place blame the responsible person his named "Putin". :shock:


Oh, and as long as I am making predictions. Don't be surprised in the coming years when Russia starts to buy Chinese Military Hardware. (remember you heard it her first) :wink:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 06:47
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:Once they have a definite production model a certain number of Su-57 will be turned out every year like the everlasting Super Hornet and for similar reasons, to keep Sukhoi's factories humming. Planned production shifted to Su-35 as the Su-57 keeps getting delayed but will shift back again once development is finally done. This is why the Mig-35 is being bought by the Russians themselves as well as being exported, to keep Mikoyan factories busy.




:lmao:

Sorry, even Russian Sources have admitted the cost of the PAK-FA/Su-57 was over $100 Million. Plus, that was when India and Russia was going to build over 500 examples. So, considering the current budget realities in the country today. Your dreaming if you think Russia is going to spit out Su-57 in anything remotely close to the Super Hornet.


Honestly, you may want to cut back on the Medication. As it will lead you to your undoing! :?


Respectfully.... 8)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 06:59
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:
mixelflick wrote:...

Let's be honest though: The Indian withdrawal is a big blow to the program. 5th gen tech takes big $, and they're hurting economically. They also (supposedly) are developing a Mach 4, Mig-31 follow on, a VSTOL fighter, updated TU-160's, PAK DA stealthy bomber etc.. That's going to take whole lotta' rubles, and the PAK FA is a money pit already, showing no signs it'll be getting cheaper anytime soon...


You just listed a whole bunch of projects that'll get thrown under a bus in a second in order to concentrate efforts on PAK FA. PAK DA already became an updated Tu-160. Russian VSTOL is a mystical creature that serves no purpose for the Russians themselves and has close to zero export markets. If only there was time they were serious about that one was when oil was 120$/barrel. Remember when Rogozin promised Russian moon base by 2020? He's a funny guy, look him up. Much like Chemical Ali, but only more obese. MiG-31 follow on will probably become a MiG-31M with a hypersonic missile. Apparently Russians are making decent progress on those.


Let's not forget the Fleet of Aircraft Carriers and Nuclear Powered Destroyers! Honestly, some just don't want to face reality???


Hell, Russia hasn't built a single major Surface Combatant (i.e. Destroyer or larger) since before the collapse of the former Soviet Union. (i.e. USSR) As a matter of fact her Military is made up mainly older or upgraded Soviet Era Equipment. Those are the cold hard facts. If, some care to believe it or not.... :|

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 07:01
by Corsair1963
31275703_1983973078598665_1323218778959380480_n.jpg




Credit: Oliver Chaudhry (Facebook)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 07:04
by marsavian
Your dreaming if you think Russia is going to spit out Su-57 in anything remotely close to the Super Hornet.


You totally missed my point. It's not the total numbers I was referring to but the continuous production run to keep the military industry busy. Old Russian fighters will eventually need replacing and even if you are only producing one or two Su-57 a month it will do the job. Rafale has been in continuous production for decades but how few of them are there ?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 07:16
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:
Your dreaming if you think Russia is going to spit out Su-57 in anything remotely close to the Super Hornet.


You totally missed my point. It's not the total numbers I was referring to but the continuous production run to keep the military industry busy. Old Russian fighters will eventually need replacing and even if you are only producing one or two Su-57 a month it will do the job. Rafale has been in continuous production for decades but how few of them are there ?



I think your missing the point??? Covering an expanse of over 6.6 million square miles, Russia is the world's largest country by landmass, beating out runner-up Canada by around 2.8 million square miles. It includes nine different time zones and shares land borders with 14 neighboring countries. In addition Russia has thousands of Cold War Era Fighters in need of replacement! (among many other types)

So, do you really think 1-2 Su-57's per month is going to be adequate??? :|

In contrast the US already has nearly 500 Stealth Fighters. (i.e. F-22s and F-35s) In addition China already has the J-20 in series production and the J-31 is said to be close behind. This while India, South Korea, Turkey, and Ukraine develop Stealth Fighters of their own....

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 09:16
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:I think your missing the point??? Covering an expanse of over 6.6 million square miles, Russia is the world's largest country by landmass, beating out runner-up Canada by around 2.8 million square miles. It includes nine different time zones and shares land borders with 14 neighboring countries. In addition Russia has thousands of Cold War Era Fighters in need of replacement! (among many other types)

So, do you really think 1-2 Su-57's per month is going to be adequate??? :|


Thousands fighters?!?

Russia have ~250 new fighters and ~500 old fighters. Russian AF plans are to have in 2020s ~700 new fighters. Old will retired:
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2326878.html

New are Su-30/35/57. Su-57 will probable replace MiG-31, it doesn't have max speed but cruise capability is lot better (no need for afterburner).

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 10:07
by weasel1962
milosh wrote:Su-57 will probable replace MiG-31...


I agree but I don't think it will be a one for one replacement. The Soviet Union built 549 Mig-31s between 1976 to 1994 but Russia only now maintains 130+ Mig-31s.

Mathematically, 1-2 a month is 12-24 a year which over a 20 year production period is 240-480 units.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 16:07
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:
31275703_1983973078598665_1323218778959380480_n.jpg




Credit: Oliver Chaudhry (Facebook)


OMG, Priceless... :)

Lots of conflicting views here on SU-57's ultimate numbers. I suppose it depends on a lot of things, not the least of which is Russian economy. I think the scenario put forth that made the most sense is low production numbers every month (1-2) just to keep Sukhoi busy. I also agree the SU-57 will likely be used to replace the Mig-31, as the cost of developing a mach 4 plus interceptor (that allegedly flies into and out of outer space, LOL) would be prohibitive.

Also, the point that Russia made a huge mistake insofar as developing a heavy vs. lighter stealth fighter was spot on. Little chance for a 100+ million SU-57 quasi stealth fighter being sold, especially with F-35's rolling off production lines by then at $80 million/copy...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 21:17
by ricnunes
@Corsair1963,

Sorry but your post/image needs the following correction:

Image

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 00:21
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
31275703_1983973078598665_1323218778959380480_n.jpg




Credit: Oliver Chaudhry (Facebook)


OMG, Priceless... :)

Lots of conflicting views here on SU-57's ultimate numbers. I suppose it depends on a lot of things, not the least of which is Russian economy. I think the scenario put forth that made the most sense is low production numbers every month (1-2) just to keep Sukhoi busy. I also agree the SU-57 will likely be used to replace the Mig-31, as the cost of developing a mach 4 plus interceptor (that allegedly flies into and out of outer space, LOL) would be prohibitive.

Also, the point that Russia made a huge mistake insofar as developing a heavy vs. lighter stealth fighter was spot on. Little chance for a 100+ million SU-57 quasi stealth fighter being sold, especially with F-35's rolling off production lines by then at $80 million/copy...


I would add that China will likely exploit Russia's error with the Su-57. By pushing the J-31 on the export market. Which, Russia has no counter too!
:doh: :doh: :doh:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 01:37
by weasel1962
Actual buyers may not see it as an "error". Russian engines are notoriously unreliable. Hence if one notes, the fighters that Russia have produced are twin-engined (and would explain why LMFS never took off) i.e. they recognised their own issues.

China was gung-ho enough to go with single engines (J-10 and JF-17s) based on Russian engines. Due to tight media control, we don't really know how many jets have gone down due to unreliable engines but we know there have been a few. What I do notice is that despite having single engined fighters, China continued parallel induction of twin-engined fighters (Suk derivatives, J-20 and FC-31) which would suggest at the least, some de-risking. Much the same way why the Mig-29 never "killed off" the Su-27, I don't see the FC-31 doing the same either.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 02:21
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I think your missing the point??? Covering an expanse of over 6.6 million square miles, Russia is the world's largest country by landmass, beating out runner-up Canada by around 2.8 million square miles. It includes nine different time zones and shares land borders with 14 neighboring countries. In addition Russia has thousands of Cold War Era Fighters in need of replacement! (among many other types)

So, do you really think 1-2 Su-57's per month is going to be adequate??? :|


Thousands fighters?!?

Russia have ~250 new fighters and ~500 old fighters. Russian AF plans are to have in 2020s ~700 new fighters. Old will retired:
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2326878.html

New are Su-30/35/57. Su-57 will probable replace MiG-31, it doesn't have max speed but cruise capability is lot better (no need for afterburner).



First, I have my doubts Russia can afford 200 Su-57's let alone 250. Yet, even ~250 is hardly adequate for the worlds largest nation with boarders from Europe to Asia. Remember, most complained that the 187 F-22's Raptors produced for the USAF was totally inadequate. Of course now that is hardly an issue with the arrival of the F-35. Yet, Russia doesn't have that option. As it could only afford one type of Stealth Fighter. It also decided on a Heavy Fighter aka Su-57. Instead of the far cheaper and far more exportable LMFS. (HUGE MISTAKE)

Plus, this doesn't even touch on the "questionable" performance of the Su-57 either. As vast majority believe it to be inferior to the F-22/F-35. As a matter of fact many are now questioning. If, it is also "inferior" to the Chinese J-20 and forthcoming J-31??? This is supported by the recent news that India was leaving the program. As it didn't meet India's requirements for Stealth, Performance, or Weapons.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 02:34
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
31275703_1983973078598665_1323218778959380480_n.jpg




Credit: Oliver Chaudhry (Facebook)


OMG, Priceless... :)

Lots of conflicting views here on SU-57's ultimate numbers. I suppose it depends on a lot of things, not the least of which is Russian economy. I think the scenario put forth that made the most sense is low production numbers every month (1-2) just to keep Sukhoi busy. I also agree the SU-57 will likely be used to replace the Mig-31, as the cost of developing a mach 4 plus interceptor (that allegedly flies into and out of outer space, LOL) would be prohibitive.

Also, the point that Russia made a huge mistake insofar as developing a heavy vs. lighter stealth fighter was spot on. Little chance for a 100+ million SU-57 quasi stealth fighter being sold, especially with F-35's rolling off production lines by then at $80 million/copy...


This is why I keep coming back to a possible Russian J-31. As they just can't afford vast numbers of Su-57's for every mission. In addition Russia clearly doesn't have the time or resources to develop another Stealth Fighter either. As that boat sailed along time ago....

Nor, is the West going to sell a 5th Generation Fighter to them. :shock: See what other "viable" solution does Russia have???

Honestly, I've heard plenty of naysayers that think I am crazy. Yet, none ever seems to have an alternative either!

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 02:45
by lbk000
No, I really can't see it. It's not in their national character. Russians have their pride -- Sukhoi was admonished for his early jet designs being too much straight-rips of the Me262.

They will do without or find something else, but it must be Russian.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 03:25
by Corsair1963
lbk000 wrote:No, I really can't see it. It's not in their national character. Russians have their pride -- Sukhoi was admonished for his early jet designs being too much straight-rips of the Me262.

They will do without or find something else, but it must be Russian.



Russia just doesn't have the resources anymore. So, sooner or later the cold hard truth is going to have to come to the surface! (pride or not)

That said, sure Russia could live without. Yet, a modest number of Su-57's. Is going to regulate Russia to nothing but a minor "Regional Power". Something that I have a hard time believing Russia will easily except. (talk about pride)

As for "it must be Russian" your making my case for the J-31. As it is already flying with an Russian Engine. Plus, a Russian Version could also include Russian Avionics and Weapons. Which, Russia could happily spin as mainly a Russian Aircraft or at least co-developed one with China. (easy for RT and Sputnik)

That said, I am not saying the above will happen. I am just saying Russia has few if any real alternatives....

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 03:29
by Corsair1963
Does anybody have a better alternative????


1.) Acquire just a modest number of Su-57's. (~200-250) Which, will regulate Russia as a minor Regional Power.

2.) Buy the J-31 under license with Russian Components

3.) ???

4.) ???

:poke:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 03:34
by spazsinbad
I thought this thread was about 'India & the F-35?' NOT typed in italics - which are difficult to read on various screens.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 05:13
by Corsair1963
I assumed that we had some latitude..... :?


Funny, many of the remarks in the threat "F-35A versus Saab Grippen NG" discussed the A-4 and Radar. What did that have to do with the thread??

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 10:00
by marsavian
milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I think your missing the point??? Covering an expanse of over 6.6 million square miles, Russia is the world's largest country by landmass, beating out runner-up Canada by around 2.8 million square miles. It includes nine different time zones and shares land borders with 14 neighboring countries. In addition Russia has thousands of Cold War Era Fighters in need of replacement! (among many other types)

So, do you really think 1-2 Su-57's per month is going to be adequate??? :|


Thousands fighters?!?

Russia have ~250 new fighters and ~500 old fighters. Russian AF plans are to have in 2020s ~700 new fighters. Old will retired:
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2326878.html

New are Su-30/35/57. Su-57 will probable replace MiG-31, it doesn't have max speed but cruise capability is lot better (no need for afterburner).


Good detailed link there on future Russian planning worth expanding as they are only expecting about 50 Su-57 by 2025. How many F-35s will be around then ?! :)

Speaking about the current state of the fighter fleet of the Russian Armed Forces, including both the VCS and the Naval Aviation of the Navy, it should be pointed out that now, according to known data, there are 246 new fighters with a service life of less than 10 years (58 Su-35S, 79 Su -30SM, 20 Su-30M2, 12 Su-27SM3, 44 MiG-29SMT, ten MiG-29UB, 23 MiG-29KR / CUBR) and about 440 old fighters, including modernized ones (approximately 180 Su-27, 20 Su-33 , 120 MiG-29, 120 MiG-31).

Of this number, 210 new fighters (58 Su-35S, 66 Su-30SM, 20 Su-30M2, 12 Su-27SM3, 44 MiG-12SM, 29SMT, ten MiG-29UB) and 370 old fighters, including modernized ones (approximately about 160 Su-27, 120 MiG-29, 90 MiG-31), and practically all the "old" MiG-29s (with the exception of the air group in Armenia) are used already for educational purposes or stopped using.

With the current organizational structure of the VCS retained (without new transfers of their units and formations to the Navy), the figure of 700 fighters looks quite achievable for the Russian military aviation system by 2025, although it will require the maintenance of deliveries of Su-35S and Su-30SM fighters to the troops on average 25-30 aircraft per year in the period 2021-2025.

As for the fifth-generation fighter of the T-50, we can expect the release of only relatively small series of these fighters in the period of 2021-2025, and that indeed the "mass" mass production and deliveries to the T-50 combat units will begin as a "second phase" "in the period after 2025.

Thus, according to the optimistic scenario, in 2025 the fighter fleet of the Russian Air Force can number up to 480-500 fighters of a new construction with a service life of less than 20 years (approximately 50 T-50C, 150-170 Su-35S, 150-170 Su-30SM , 30 Su-27SM3 / Su-30M2, 50 MiG-29SMT / UB, 36 MiG-35) and up to 210 modernized fighters of old types (up to 90 Su-27SM / SM3, 120 MiG-31BM / BSM).

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2018, 11:22
by spazsinbad
Corsair1963 wrote:I assumed that we had some latitude..... :?

Funny, many of the remarks in the threat "F-35A versus Saab Grippen NG" discussed the A-4 and Radar. What did that have to do with the thread??

You exaggerate but thanks for no italics.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 00:33
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I assumed that we had some latitude..... :?

Funny, many of the remarks in the threat "F-35A versus Saab Grippen NG" discussed the A-4 and Radar. What did that have to do with the thread??

You exaggerate but thanks for no italics.


Maybe but the point was valid. Nonetheless, your welcome for the latter.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 01:51
by weasel1962
LM sweetening India F-16 deal with F-35 tech

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... technology

Did they also mention that the F-16 and F-35 share other commonalities like wings, cockpit, engine, etc...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 04:08
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:LM sweetening India F-16 deal with F-35 tech

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... technology

Did they also mention that the F-16 and F-35 share other commonalities like wings, cockpit, engine, etc...




Honestly, it sounds more and more like India will acquire the F-16 Block 70. Which, will be followed by the F-35 at some point....

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 04:45
by popcorn
Will India still insist that the foreign supplier be liable for shoddy workmanship and quality control issues arising from production in India? That's what scuttled the MMRCA Rafale deal.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 05:43
by Corsair1963
popcorn wrote:Will India still insist that the foreign supplier be liable for shoddy workmanship and quality control issues arising from production in India? That's what scuttled the MMRCA Rafale deal.



What they want and what they get from the US is another story........ :wink:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2018, 22:24
by spazsinbad
US shoots foot methinks. Trust seems to be a big issue for India - but why trust Russia equally? Poor old India indeed.
New U.S. Sanctions Pose Dilemma for India’s Defense
18 May 2018 Neelam Mathews

"[complicated stuff then] …“This issue brings us back to the issue of trust that took so long to build between the two nations,” [India/USA] said an Indian MoD official....

...“India warrants an exemption from these secondary sanctions, as does any country with which the U.S. is forging new and strategically important defense relations,” said the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. U.S. Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis last month called on Congress to grant national security waivers to CAATSA. “There are nations in the world who are trying to turn away from formerly Russian-sourced weapons and systems. We only need to look at India, Vietnam, and some others to recognize that. Eventually, we’re going to paralyze ourselves,” he told the Senate Armed Services Committee."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... as-defense

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2018, 01:18
by weasel1962
Sanctions or not, this may be what kills the MRCA2.

HAL offers to build 40 Su-30mki
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/22516#.WwINw2cUnVI

Weasel's notes:
1. The fighter is cheaper than MRCA competitors (in terms of upfront cost).
2. The line is already set up but due to finish production in Mar 2020. This is as "made in India" as the other MRCA lines will be.
3. The add-on order will mean the IAF gets its aircraft faster.
4. As the Su-30mki is already in use, no issue of integration. In fact the fighter will be combat ready from day 1.

The Su-30MKI was not a competitor in the past because it did not make sense to build a new line to boost capacity for a small number of new builds. Now it makes sense (or rupees, pun intended). The savings could go to upgrading (or upgradationing as some Indians would say) the existing Su-30MKIs.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2018, 14:12
by mixelflick
And if the latest reports are true, even non-AESA equipped MKI's can detect the J-20...

In a perfect world, I think we should sell the F-35 to India. Would turn the tide once and for all insofar as getting away from Russia, and with the West in her alliance vs. China. It just makes sense...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 17:54
by spazsinbad
Looks as though India puts the KYBOSH on any F-35 deal when going ahead with this purchase - just another stuff up eh.
India moves towards acquiring Russian S-400 missile systems despite US opposition
01 Jul 2018 Rajat Pandit | TNN

"NEW DELHI: India is now swiftly moving towards acquiring five advanced S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems from Russia despite the looming threat of US sanctions, with the defence ministry clearing the decks for the proposed Rs 39,000 crore deal.

Top sources say the defence acquisitions council (DAC), chaired by minister Nirmala Sitharaman, on Thursday, approved the “minor deviations” in the mega S-400 deal that had emerged during the recently-concluded commercial negotiations with Russia.

“The S-400 procurement case will now go to the finance ministry for clearance and the PM-led Cabinet Committee on Security for the final nod. The country’s top political leadership will have to take a call on when the actual contract can be inked,” said a source.... [so maybe they won't DO IT?]

...The plan is to fully integrate the S-400 systems with the IAF’s air defence network called IACCS (integrated air command and control system), which combines a wide array of sensors and weapons, to further enhance their lethality and plug gaps in the country’s airspace. China, incidentally, has already begun to induct six S-400 batteries, which is designated the `SA-21 Growler’ by NATO, under a $3 billion deal inked in 2014."

Source: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 810964.cms

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 16:58
by spazsinbad
India approves S-400 buy from Russia, amid expectations for more bilateral deals
29 Sep 2018 Vivek Raghuvanshi

"NEW DELHI — India has quietly approved a $5.43 billion program to buy five S-400 Triumf air defense systems from Russia, just a week before Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Oct. 5 visit to the country. The program was approved earlier this week by the Indian government’s highest defense approval body, the Cabinet Committee on Security headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

When asked about India’s decision in relation to U.S. objections over the purchase, a top Ministry of Defence official said: “We already have communicated our stand on the subject to Washington.” A formal government-to-government contract is expected to be announced during the 19th India-Russia summit on Oct. 5.

“Apparently, the Indian defense establishment is convinced that S-400 Triumf system is ideally suited to fill a critical gap in our existing capabilities. That being the case, there is no reason for India to buckle under the U.S. pressure to roll back procurement of hardware from Russia,” said Amit Cowshish, a former former financial adviser on defense acquisition for the MoD.

U.S. embassy diplomats were unavailable for comment....

...Cowshish noted that India cannot afford to distance itself from Russia, if for no other reason than the fact that it requires Russia’s continued support to maintain and operate in-service equipment, a large proportion of which is of Russian-origin. Russia remains the largest defense supplier to India, but its share of the Indian market has fallen sharply."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/land/2018/0 ... ral-deals/

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2018, 17:30
by marsavian
There is always the F-16 Block 70 which is probably the favorite as they get to take over production.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 14:41
by mixelflick
S-400 vs F-35, interesting dilemma.

They've apparently chosen the S-400. Let's follow the logic.. They have no stealth fighters on the way from Russia, and the F-35 is a long shot. Which means they'll have few aircraft capable of defending against stealth aircraft. So they think the S-400 will protect them against Chinese J-20's/31's. OK, maybe. But now you've closed the door to the F-35 for, well.. probably for a LONG time (if not forever).

At best, this gives India a self-defense capability - and little else. She won't be able to use F-35's to penetrate Pakastani/Chinese airspace, conduct very important ISR missions etc. I think this was rather short sighted. India would do well to turn her attention America for her defense needs, because after this S-400 purchase - Russia isn't going to be able to equip her in a 5th gen world. In that respect, India will more and more like Iran...

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2018, 22:35
by lbk000
I think in their minds, this is fine. Like China, France, Iran, Russia, etc., India has been a historically "great nation" and the pride ingrained by historical regional dominance is indelible. India's ultimate goal, as a great nation, will be to minimize foreign dependency and therefore influence. To that end, she seeks to develop indigenous capabilities, although India chooses a less brazenly underhanded route than China -- perhaps to their own detriment, because the other great powers obviously will not share India's dearest interests: The Rafale deal was soured when France reneged on allowing them to be built in India, and I believe that India was only being milked for funds for FGFA/PAK-FA. Therefore India sought to find an early out of both MMRCA and FGFA when they realized that they would not be able to acquire their desired technology/experience windfalls. However, India seems confident that acquiring advanced capability is a matter of time.

Some other thoughts:
- S-400 system is also acquired by China. While a double edged sword, the good side to it is that India can gain intelligence into one of the things they'll be dealing with.
- India knows it's currently in a position of strength as a check against China. It is only cultural that India will continue riding the tiger by maintaining friendly distance in this position as long as there is any amount of profit in it -- and there is. I do not believe the S-400 deal would prohibit F-16V deal from going through, as the US has far more to gain from pushing it through than walking away.
- Fantasy, but there is nothing barring India from turning around and defecting materiel wholesale as a bargaining chip if they really are in a pinch to flip West.
- Despite their position of strength, I don't think that India believes there is any hope to acquire the F-35 in the foreseeable future, nor am I sure that they would even want to. The diplomatic and operational gap is far too large, and India, being true to its aspirations of reclaiming its regional prestige, would rather develop its own peer system (HAL AMCA) than what it would regard as kissing the ring of the US.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2018, 00:00
by popcorn
lbk000 wrote:The Rafale deal was soured when France reneged on allowing them to be built in India, and I believe that India was only being milked for funds for FGFA/PAK-FA. .

AFAIK the IG was requiring France to offer a warranty on Rafales built in India by Indian partner over who it had no control. So if shoddy workmanship caused by incompetent management and labor was causing problems, Dassault could do little to discipline or fire staff under Indian law. Dassault was wise to step away.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2018, 00:36
by Corsair1963
If, the US says no to Turkey for acquiring the S400/F-35. Then how could it with India???

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2018, 08:33
by talkitron
The Rafale deal is currently a huge political scandal in India. To me, it seems like the average voter will not understand foreign weapon deals and can easily be misled with exaggerated claims about corruption. I have a feeling that high profile fighter jet deals might be off the table for a while as these deals do not win votes in India and many other countries. Here is a recent BBC summary of the scandal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-45636806

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2018, 09:18
by weasel1962
Risk of sanctions affect AH-64, C-130, C-17 maintenance. If sanctions are imposed, the most immediate issue would be the loss of the MH-60 deal. The current deals are still small in comparison to the MMRCA/CV3. The threat of sanctions would be a major barrier to cross for future US-India deals. There are too many Russian-Indian acquisitions for India to avoid Russia. If its not S400 today, it would be something else tomorrow.

A waiver is inevitable imho. The targets afterall are still Turkey & China.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2018, 20:37
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:S-400 vs F-35, interesting dilemma.

They've apparently chosen the S-400. Let's follow the logic.. They have no stealth fighters on the way from Russia, and the F-35 is a long shot. Which means they'll have few aircraft capable of defending against stealth aircraft. So they think the S-400 will protect them against Chinese J-20's/31's. OK, maybe. But now you've closed the door to the F-35 for, well.. probably for a LONG time (if not forever).

At best, this gives India a self-defense capability - and little else. She won't be able to use F-35's to penetrate Pakastani/Chinese airspace, conduct very important ISR missions etc. I think this was rather short sighted. India would do well to turn her attention America for her defense needs, because after this S-400 purchase - Russia isn't going to be able to equip her in a 5th gen world. In that respect, India will more and more like Iran...


On the other hand, if a conflict between India and China came up, India could "rest assured" that it wouldn't be the first time that they would get their "asses kicked" by China :devil:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 01:42
by weasel1962
Indian logic is different. They see things always taking into account the Pakistanis. The Chinese are unlikely to nuke India but they think the Pakistanis could. S-400 gives them some ABM capability as well as shoot down the JF-17s.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 05:20
by Corsair1963
Problem for India is how long can she wait??? Before she finally realizes that China is going to build hundreds of J-20's and J-31's. Which, she could also provide to Pakistan! While, the Indian Air Force has nothing to counter......:shock:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 06:13
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:Problem for India is how long can she wait??? Before she finally realizes that China is going to build hundreds of J-20's and J-31's. Which, she could also provide to Pakistan! While, the Indian Air Force has nothing to counter......:shock:


j-20 is a machine for the domestic market, and to counter future j-31 there is a "super-30" program. The possible supply of su-35 to Pakistan poses a great threat.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 06:42
by weasel1962
The Super 30 is an upgrade of the 20+ year old Su-30MKI that at its heart installs a 1st gen Russian AESA in place of the non-AESA Bars.

The reality is that Pakistan can't really afford anything better than the JF-17 even if the Chinese have already pitched, re-pitched and practically thrown the J-31 (after pitching the J-10) at PAF's doorstep. Same thing happened with the Z-10 helo.

And the Indians know that. That's why IAF procurement plans center around procuring 18 Tejas squadrons. Ironically, this will be another major reason for a CAATSA waiver since all 18 Tejas Squadrons will be propelled by F404/F414 engines imported from the US.

P.s. India's procurement processes are notorious. The MMRCA originated in year 1982 when the IAF bought 40 Mirage 2000s and left the other 110 options open until the M2000 line closed, which then became the 2001 126 plane MMRCA RFP and ended up with 36 Rafales, which hasn't been delivered to date.... still, that's better than the FGFA saga.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 06:50
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Problem for India is how long can she wait??? Before she finally realizes that China is going to build hundreds of J-20's and J-31's. Which, she could also provide to Pakistan! While, the Indian Air Force has nothing to counter......:shock:


j-20 is a machine for the domestic market, and to counter future j-31 there is a "super-30" program. The possible supply of su-35 to Pakistan poses a great threat.



It's "extremely" doubtful that the Su-30MKI or even Su-35. Are a match for China's forthcoming Stealth Fighters. (i.e. J-20 and J-31)

:doh:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 06:52
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:And if the latest reports are true, even non-AESA equipped MKI's can detect the J-20...

In a perfect world, I think we should sell the F-35 to India. Would turn the tide once and for all insofar as getting away from Russia, and with the West in her alliance vs. China. It just makes sense...



Such reports should be taken with a grain of salt. Only internet bloggers are taking them seriously at the moment.... :roll:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:01
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:The Super 30 is an upgrade of the 20+ year old Su-30MKI that at its heart installs a 1st gen Russian AESA in place of the non-AESA Bars.

The reality is that Pakistan can't really afford anything better than the JF-17 even if the Chinese have already pitched, re-pitched and practically thrown the J-31 (after pitching the J-10) at PAF's doorstep. Same thing happened with the Z-10 helo.


Sure Pakistan has a very limited budget. Yet, that doesn't mean China couldn't provide Pakistan some J-31's at extremely favorable prices. If, India becomes to much of a threat. That or maybe Pakistan will provide China with bases to operate her own 5th Generation Fighters from within the country. This would be a big counter to the IAF....(anything is possible)

And the Indians know that. That's why IAF procurement plans center around procuring 18 Tejas squadrons. Ironically, this will be another major reason for a CAATSA waiver since all 18 Tejas Squadrons will be propelled by F404/F414 engines imported from the US.


India is procuring LCA (Tejas) for pride and the fact that it would be political suicide to cancel the project....(sadly)

P.s. India's procurement processes are notorious. The MMRCA originated in year 1982 when the IAF bought 40 Mirage 2000s and left the other 110 options open until the M2000 line closed, which then became the 2001 126 plane MMRCA RFP and ended up with 36 Rafales, which hasn't been delivered to date.... still, that's better than the FGFA saga.



The last part I can completely agree with..... :shock:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:16
by babybat{}.net
weasel1962 wrote:The Super 30 is an upgrade of the 20+ year old Su-30MKI that at its heart installs a 1st gen Russian AESA in place of the non-AESA Bars.


I'm not sure the super-30 will get AESA. Rather, it'll be the version of the locator IRBIS. It'll be enough for parity with j-31.
And by the way, how do you define generations of Russian AESA? Even I've seen at least 5 generations of Russian T/R modules, from late soviet, to modern russian..

weasel1962 wrote:The reality is that Pakistan can't really afford anything better than the JF-17 even if the Chinese have already pitched, re-pitched and practically thrown the J-31 (after pitching the J-10) at PAF's doorstep. Same thing happened with the Z-10 helo.


Russia has a practice of providing loans for the purchase of its weapons. So I would not rule out the conclusion of a contract for the su-35 after the contract for the supply of s-400 to Pakistan. Source - former Defence Minister Khurram Dastgir Khan.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:22
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:It's "extremely" doubtful that the Su-30MKI or even Su-35. Are a match for China's forthcoming Stealth Fighters. (i.e. J-20 and J-31)

:doh:



I can't understand your appreciation of the j-31. This is an aircraft with low flight characteristics, small size of the antenna and old engines.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:24
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:

I'm not sure the super-30 will get AESA. Rather, it'll be the version of the locator IRBIS. It'll be enough for parity with j-31.
And by the way, how do you define generations of Russian AESA? Even I've seen at least 5 generations of Russian T/R modules, from late soviet, to modern russian..



Sorry, giving the 4th Generation Su-30MKI an improved IRBIS or even a totally New AESA Radar. Isn't going to give it parity with the J-31........

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:31
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:Sorry, giving the 4th Generation Su-30MKI an improved IRBIS or even a totally New AESA Radar. Isn't going to give it parity with the J-31........[/i]


The only advantage of the j-31 is a reduced RCS, in all other respects, the super-30 will surpasses it.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:38
by weasel1962
Irbis is a PESA. Zhuk-AE.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:39
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:
The only advantage of the j-31 is a reduced RCS, in all other respects, the super-30 will surpasses it.



Stealth is a very big advantage. Plus, what proof do you have that the Su-30MKI's will surpass it in other areas???

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:42
by Corsair1963
Only real option for India is the F-35. As it is the only fighter that will guarantee India Air Superiority over the PLAAF for the foreseeable future.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:47
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:Stealth is a very big advantage.


Of course, but in this case, the new radar will provide sufficient detection range.

Corsair1963 wrote:Plus, what proof do you have that the Su-30MKI's will surpass it in other areas???


For example - speed, maneuverability, altitude, thrust-to-weight ratio, combat radius, combat load, antenna diameter..

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 07:55
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:
Of course, but in this case, the new radar will provide sufficient detection range.




For example - speed, maneuverability, altitude, thrust-to-weight ratio, combat radius, combat load, antenna diameter....


You have sources to support either claim???

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 08:00
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:You have sources to support either claim???


What exactly do you want me to prove?
All the information exist in open sources, but if you don’t find any, I’ll certainly try to help.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 08:19
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:
What exactly do you want me to prove?
All the information exist in open sources, but if you don’t find any, I’ll certainly try to help.



We know little about the J-20 and even less about the J-31. So, what open sources are you talking about??? :roll:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 08:23
by weasel1962
Disregarding prototypes like J-31, not sure what advantage Super 30 will be against AESA equipped J-11s and J-16s, not to mention the new squadron of Su-35s which are already in service. The IAF focus is still very much on Pakistan, not China.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 08:28
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:We know little about the J-20 and even less about the J-31. So, what open sources are you talking about??? :roll:


oh...
Ok, the J-31 is an export airplane. Its mockup, equipment and some characteristics were presented at the China Airshow, since 2016. Its chief designer gave several interviews for the Chinese press, and participated in several TV programs dedicated to this machine. So I think there is a lot of information about it in open sources..

Also from his interview, we have some information about j-20. For example, that RCS j-20 is higher than RCS j-31.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 08:32
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:
oh...
Ok, the J-31 is an export airplane. Its mockup, equipment and some characteristics were presented at the China Airshow, since 2016. Its chief designer gave several interviews for the Chinese press, and participated in several TV programs dedicated to this machine. So I think there is a lot of information about it in open sources..


You think or you know???

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 08:38
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:You think or you know???

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 08:50
by Corsair1963
Your hardly making your case......... :|

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 08:56
by babybat{}.net
Corsair1963 wrote:Your hardly making your case......... :|


Sorry, but I did not hear from you anything about j-31. If you don't know anything about this plane - it does not mean that no one knows. first try google

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 09:27
by Corsair1963
babybat{}.net wrote:
Sorry, but I did not hear from you anything about j-31. If you don't know anything about this plane - it does not mean that no one knows. first try google.



I think your on the wrong forum.......... :|

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 09:28
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:
babybat{}.net wrote:
The only advantage of the j-31 is a reduced RCS, in all other respects, the super-30 will surpasses it.



Stealth is a very big advantage. Plus, what proof do you have that the Su-30MKI's will surpass it in other areas???


For start engines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5nB4UIOc8

Russians will not gave them RD-33MK tech which is only decent RD-33 variant but it is still under powered for what J-31 need. So until China developed its own F414, J-31 is more less irrelevant.

On other hand old AL-31 is lot better then what J-31 use, and Russian Flankers right now are getting 117 engines, and after 2022 we can expect type-30 for Flankers.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 09:31
by eloise
babybat{}.net wrote:Of course, but in this case, the new radar will provide sufficient detection range.

That is quite unlikely
burn-through.png

https://books.google.com.vn/books?id=3l ... &q&f=false

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 09:55
by babybat{}.net
eloise wrote:That is quite unlikely


Okay, let's count.
For export version of Irbis-E for example:

Dmax = 400/((3/0.05)^(1/4)) > 140km

If I made a mistake in my calculations, I would be happy to hear your comments.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 09:56
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
For start engines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5nB4UIOc8

Russians will not gave them RD-33MK tech which is only decent RD-33 variant but it is still under powered for what J-31 need. So until China developed its own F414, J-31 is more less irrelevant.

On other hand old AL-31 is lot better then what J-31 use, and Russian Flankers right now are getting 117 engines, and after 2022 we can expect type-30 for Flankers.


Stealth and Sensor Fusion are the most important qualities in any 5th Generation Stealth Fighter. So, any Flanker is at a big deficit from the very start. Nonetheless, in the case of China. Russia has been more than willing to provide China with just about anything it wants. Assuming it would need more engines from Russia in the first place. As it is making good progress along that front.

In addition the izdeliye 30 is very early in it's development and I believe only flown once in a Su-57. So, I wouldn't count those chickens until the hatch.
:wink:

Honestly, to claim any Flanker is likely superior to a Stealth Fighter even the J-20 and/or J-31 is nothing short of naïve.... :?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:00
by weasel1962
babybat{}.net wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Your hardly making your case......... :|


Sorry, but I did not hear from you anything about j-31. If you don't know anything about this plane - it does not mean that no one knows. first try google


What some people still don't understand is the difference between an aircraft developed for export and one developed for internal military use. The former would always have brochures since one can't sell aircraft without at least some advertising...

Example of an J-31 brochure
http://www.eastpendulum.com/wp-content/ ... %A9-08.jpg

As for Su-30, browse thru roe.ru (official rosboronexport brochure) - disclaimer on worms at your risk.

What is commonly reported incorrectly is the J-31 take off weight of 17.5 tons is read as empty. Should not need to go into such detail as anyone with a common knowledge of Russian engine thrust differences for the differing engines would have acknowledged that what was stated wrt flight performance is generally accurate.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:04
by babybat{}.net
weasel1962 wrote:Example of an J-31 brochure
http://www.eastpendulum.com/wp-content/ ... %A9-08.jpg


Thank you! I have not seen the full version of this brochure yet.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:11
by weasel1962
eloise wrote:
babybat{}.net wrote:Of course, but in this case, the new radar will provide sufficient detection range.

That is quite unlikely


Not conclusive since the actual RCS of the J-31 is not known. Whilst the J-31 has stealth characteristics, the assumption that the aircraft has comparable stealth RCS as an aircraft like the F-35, cannot be validated.

Even in the context of RCS reduction paint, the PLAAF might apply the best for the J-20 but may not do the same for an export variant.

If one considers the power output of a radar like Irbis e.g. 20kw, the raw output could ensure detection of LO aircraft (not VLO) at adequate missile firing ranges.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:13
by Corsair1963
Honestly, some general specifications tell us very little. Just like they did early in the development of the F-35. :shock:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:16
by babybat{}.net
weasel1962 wrote:Not conclusive since the actual RCS of the J-31 is not known. Whilst the J-31 has stealth characteristics, the assumption that the aircraft has comparable stealth RCS as an aircraft like the F-35, cannot be validated.


There is data from the TV show with the participation of the chief designer of J-31. j-31 RCS = 0.05m^2

weasel1962 wrote:Even in the context of RCS reduction paint, the PLAAF might apply the best for the J-20 but may not do the same for an export variant.


In an interview with a Chinese newspaper, he claims that RCS j-31 is lower than RCS j-20.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:25
by element1loop
babybat{}.net wrote:In an interview with a Chinese newspaper, he claims that RCS j-31 is lower than RCS j-20.


A guy with a shinny sequined jacket is advertising what appears to be booze? ... authoritative source ... got anything better?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:29
by eloise
babybat{}.net wrote:Okay, let's count.
For export version of Irbis-E for example:

Dmax = 400/((3/0.05)^(1/4)) > 140km

If I made a mistake in my calculations, I would be happy to hear your comments.

If you read the whole paragraph, the interesting part isn't in the detection range.
burn-through.png

Irbis E can detect airborne targets with a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of three square meters at ranges of 350-400 km. I will make a very generous assumption in favor of Irbis-E and say that the burn through range against the same target (rcs=3m2) is 300 km or only 14-25% reduction from detection range.
Let count.
Range Bt against J-31 = 300/((3/0.05)^(1/2)) = 39 km

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:33
by babybat{}.net
element1loop wrote:A guy with a shinny sequined jacket is advertising what appears to be booze? ... authoritative source ... got anything better?


Better then chief designer?
I don't think so :D

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:35
by weasel1962
A salesman will always claim that their products are the best etc....as much credibility as claims of massive numbers of J-31 that will eventually enter service. More important are the facts on the ground like how many J-20s / J-31 are actually in service.

At this moment, I really can't see how in its procurement strategy that India is taking the PLAAF seriously. The focus is still on Pakistan.

P.s. as a result, I don't think the RCS of the J-31 is actually 0.05m2 regardless of what might be said on TV shows (esp CCTV).

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:38
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:
Not conclusive since the actual RCS of the J-31 is not known. Whilst the J-31 has stealth characteristics, the assumption that the aircraft has comparable stealth RCS as an aircraft like the F-35, cannot be validated.

Even in the context of RCS reduction paint, the PLAAF might apply the best for the J-20 but may not do the same for an export variant.

If one considers the power output of a radar like Irbis e.g. 20kw, the raw output could ensure detection of LO aircraft (not VLO) at adequate missile firing ranges.


We have little hard data that is for sure. Yet, it would be a big stretch to believe the Flanker with a RCS of a Barn Door. Is likely to be able to detect, target, and kill even a LO (low observable) like the J-20 and/or J-31.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:51
by babybat{}.net
eloise wrote:If you read the whole paragraph, the interesting part isn't in the detection range.
burn-through.png

Irbis E can detect airborne targets with a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of three square meters at ranges of 350-400 km. I will make a very generous assumption in favor of Irbis-E and say that the burn through range against the same target (rcs=3m2) is 300 km or only 14-25% reduction from detection range.
Let count.
Range Bt against J-31 = 300/((3/0.05)^(1/2)) = 39 km


This formula is for active response radar.
It is not applicable in this case.
In case of passive response we should use ^(1/4).

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 10:57
by eloise
babybat{}.net wrote:This formula is for active response radar.
It is not applicable in this case.
In case of passive response we should use ^(1/4).

No, the formula is for radar in general (both AESA and PESA included)
You can refer to this https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavion ... s-part-ii/
AESA and PESA are very similar

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 11:24
by babybat{}.net
eloise wrote:No, the formula is for radar in general (both AESA and PESA included)
You can refer to this https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavion ... s-part-ii/
AESA and PESA are very similar


Do you mean radar range in the face of radar jamming and electronic countermeasures?
It strongly depends on the type of noise, its algorithms, signal level and some other factors, parameters and algorithms of jamming and location.
Unfortunately, my English level does not allow me to continue this topic. We have different terms. But thanks anyway)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 12:04
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Nonetheless, in the case of China. Russia has been more than willing to provide China with just about anything it wants. Assuming it would need more engines from Russia in the first place. As it is making good progress along that front.


What Russian engine Chinese can put in J-31 to match F-35 T/W ratio? None.

Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, to claim any Flanker is likely superior to a Stealth Fighter even the J-20 and/or J-31 is nothing short of naïve.... :?


Did I claim that? Nope. I wrote J-31 lacks engine, if you think it isn't problem okey. BTW don't compare J-20 with J-31. J-20 got lot more funds then J-31, there isn't engine problem for J-20, they are finishing WS-15 and if it sucks they have 117 for Su-35 and later type-30 espeacilly now when India isn't imporant for PAK-FA.

Only if USA is willing to gave Chinese F414 tech then J-31 could be relevant :mrgreen:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 12:05
by eloise
babybat{}.net wrote:Do you mean radar range in the face of radar jamming and electronic countermeasures?

Yes
babybat{}.net wrote:It strongly depends on the type of noise, its algorithms, signal level and some other factors, parameters and algorithms of jamming and location.

Regardless of the type of noise and algorithm used, J/s ratio is a big factor. You can visit this topic for better explainations
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29022
https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavion ... asure-ecm/

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 12:38
by babybat{}.net


Thanks for a good article)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 15:43
by white_lightning35
Corsair1963 wrote:Only real option for India is the F-35. As it is the only fighter that will guarantee India Air Superiority over the PLAAF for the foreseeable future.


Excuse me sir, but how many times do you have to spew your uninformed drivel before you keep it to yourself? The f-35 is not the only real option for India. Even if they wanted the f-35, they are not getting it. People have already explained this in this thread. Please learn to read.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2018, 21:24
by falcon.16
eloise wrote:
babybat{}.net wrote:Okay, let's count.
For export version of Irbis-E for example:

Dmax = 400/((3/0.05)^(1/4)) > 140km

If I made a mistake in my calculations, I would be happy to hear your comments.

If you read the whole paragraph, the interesting part isn't in the detection range.
burn-through.png

Irbis E can detect airborne targets with a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of three square meters at ranges of 350-400 km. I will make a very generous assumption in favor of Irbis-E and say that the burn through range against the same target (rcs=3m2) is 300 km or only 14-25% reduction from detection range.
Let count.
Range Bt against J-31 = 300/((3/0.05)^(1/2)) = 39 km



Eloise, can you explain this formule? I do not understand...

You are calculating Burn thorugh for J-31 chinese fighter, and radar its a Irbis.Why do you use data (300 kms and 3 m2) from a Mig-29 type fighter. Why do you not use data from J-31?

And 0,05, what represent this number?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 01:18
by Corsair1963
white_lightning35 wrote:
Excuse me sir, but how many times do you have to spew your uninformed drivel before you keep it to yourself? The f-35 is not the only real option for India. Even if they wanted the f-35, they are not getting it. People have already explained this in this thread. Please learn to read.


Really, Russia has cut the Su-57 to pretty much a research program. While, India has left it altogether. While, future 5th Generation Fighter Programs like the TF-X, KF-X, and AMCA are a good "20 years" off maybe more....


So, you tell me what other options does India have to counter Chinese Stealth Fighters (J-20/J-31) post-2025???

As for the US allowing the sale of the F-35 to India. Many credible sources have hinted that they do.........
:wink:



USPACOM boss Admiral Harry Harris Jr. is quotes as stating the following:



“At the moment, India is considering a number of U.S. systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for India’s large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for India’s multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of Sea Guardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter...



...India will be among the U.S.’s most significant partners in the years to come due to its growing influence and expanding military. As a new generation of political leaders emerge, India has shown that it is more open to strengthening security ties with the U.S. and adjusting its historic policy of non-alignment to address common strategic interests. The U.S. seeks an enduring, regular, routine, and institutionalized strategic partnership with India. USPACOM identifies a security relationship with India as a major command line-of-effort...


https://www.stratpost.com/u-s-pacom-bos ... -to-india/

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 01:57
by Corsair1963
milosh wrote:
What Russian engine Chinese can put in J-31 to match F-35 T/W ratio? None.



The current RD-93's in the prototype J-31's are adequate at ~19,000 - 20,000 lbs each. This would give the J-31 ~40,000 lbs vs the F-35A's ~ 43,000 lbs. That is assuming that China is unable to develop the New WS-13E's (22,000 lbs) to it's satisfaction. (I wouldn't take that bet!) As for weight the F-35 and J-31 are in a similar range....(i.e. ~30,000 - ~70,000 lbs)

Honestly, a slight difference in T/W is hardly a non-starter...
:doh:



Did I claim that? Nope. I wrote J-31 lacks engine, if you think it isn't problem okey. BTW don't compare J-20 with J-31. J-20 got lot more funds then J-31, there isn't engine problem for J-20, they are finishing WS-15 and if it sucks they have 117 for Su-35 and later type-30 espeacilly now when India isn't imporant for PAK-FA.




I wasn't talking to you...........as for your remarks you clearly have no idea what your talking about. :shock:



Only if USA is willing to gave Chinese F414 tech then J-31 could be relevant....




Again "absurd" as China is finally making good progress. Honestly, it's only a matter of time before China overtakes Russia in this department. Which, shouldn't be surprising as Russia is still having both reliability and durability issues with it's fighter engines. (i.e. AL-31, AL-41, RD-33, etc.)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 03:23
by element1loop
Corsair1963 wrote:“At the moment, India is considering a number of U.S. systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for India’s large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for India’s multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of Sea Guardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter..."

...India will be among the U.S.’s most significant partners in the years to come due to its growing influence and expanding military. As a new generation of political leaders emerge, India has shown that it is more open to strengthening security ties with the U.S. and adjusting its historic policy of non-alignment to address common strategic interests. The U.S. seeks an enduring, regular, routine, and institutionalized strategic partnership with India. USPACOM identifies a security relationship with India as a major command line-of-effort...


You've forgotten the 5 x S400 systems it was announced India has ordered, earlier this week.

I hear that's a bit frowned on for existing F-35 partners, in general, which could only be read as a strong indication of India's contempt for the very notion of procuring F-35, any time soon. Or of 'aligning' more than it's own national interest strictly requires. If buying F-35s was their faint hope then they just knowingly blew that possibility. A kick to the nether regions instead.

India, Russia To Sign Deal For S400 Air Defence System This Week: Kremlin

The US had last month warned against the deal, saying it would be considered as a "significant transaction" and has a potential for imposing tough US sanctions.

All India | Edited by Stela Dey (with inputs from Agencies) | Updated: October 02, 2018 21:35 IST

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-r ... in-1925719

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 04:16
by weasel1962
Every major fighter manufacturer from Gripen, Rafale, Boeing, LM, Russians (excepting China/Pakistan) has pitched their fighter to India. Its probably a shorter list of fighters that India hasn't or isn't evaluating. The current India interest level in the F-35 is currently no different from getting a brochure at an arms show. Some may choose to read this of getting a brochure is a sign of buying interest, others who realise that that party gets a brochure from everyone may read ihe action a bit differently.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 05:16
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:Every major fighter manufacturer from Gripen, Rafale, Boeing, LM, Russians (excepting China/Pakistan) has pitched their fighter to India. Its probably a shorter list of fighters that India hasn't or isn't evaluating. The current India interest level in the F-35 is currently no different from getting a brochure at an arms show. Some may choose to read this of getting a brochure is a sign of buying interest, others who realise that that party gets a brochure from everyone may read ihe action a bit differently.



My point is simple the F-35 is the only viable option for India to deter China. In addition there is on going discussion between the US and India over the F-35....

Honestly, don't know how to spell it out any simpler???

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 05:24
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:“At the moment, India is considering a number of U.S. systems for purchase, all of which USPACOM fully supports: the F-16 for India’s large single-engine, multi-role fighter acquisition program; the F/A-18E for India’s multi-engine, carrier-based fighter purchase; a reorder of 12-15 P-8Is; a potential purchase of Sea Guardian UAS; MH-60R multi-role sea-based helicopter; and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter..."

...India will be among the U.S.’s most significant partners in the years to come due to its growing influence and expanding military. As a new generation of political leaders emerge, India has shown that it is more open to strengthening security ties with the U.S. and adjusting its historic policy of non-alignment to address common strategic interests. The U.S. seeks an enduring, regular, routine, and institutionalized strategic partnership with India. USPACOM identifies a security relationship with India as a major command line-of-effort...


You've forgotten the 5 x S400 systems it was announced India has ordered, earlier this week.

I hear that's a bit frowned on for existing F-35 partners, in general, which could only be read as a strong indication of India's contempt for the very notion of procuring F-35, any time soon. Or of 'aligning' more than it's own national interest strictly requires. If buying F-35s was their faint hope then they just knowingly blew that possibility. A kick to the nether regions instead.

India, Russia To Sign Deal For S400 Air Defence System This Week: Kremlin

The US had last month warned against the deal, saying it would be considered as a "significant transaction" and has a potential for imposing tough US sanctions.

All India | Edited by Stela Dey (with inputs from Agencies) | Updated: October 02, 2018 21:35 IST

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-r ... in-1925719



I have not forgotten the S400 at all............Yet, nobody believes the US will place sanctions on India over the deal or that is will effect any existing or future arms deals.

Do you have a source or sources that say otherwise??? If, so I am all ears.... :wink:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 06:40
by eloise
falcon.16 wrote:
eloise wrote:If you read the whole paragraph, the interesting part isn't in the detection range.
burn-through.png

Irbis E can detect airborne targets with a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of three square meters at ranges of 350-400 km. I will make a very generous assumption in favor of Irbis-E and say that the burn through range against the same target (rcs=3m2) is 300 km or only 14-25% reduction from detection range.
Let count.
Range Bt against J-31 = 300/((3/0.05)^(1/2)) = 39 km



Eloise, can you explain this formule? I do not understand...

You are calculating Burn thorugh for J-31 chinese fighter, and radar its a Irbis.Why do you use data (300 kms and 3 m2) from a Mig-29 type fighter. Why do you not use data from J-31?

And 0,05, what represent this number?

It is very simple
Because burn through distance is proportional to square root of RCS:
That means :
(Burn through distance against Mig-29 in km )/(burn through distance against J-31 in Km) = (square root of Mig-29 rcs) / (square root of J-31 rcs )

So (burn through distance against J-31 in Km) = (Burn through distance against Mig-29 in km )/((square root of Mig-29 rcs) / (square root of J-31 rcs ))
Range Bt against J-31 = 300/((3/0.05)^(1/2)) = 39 km

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 07:04
by babybat{}.net
eloise wrote:It is very simple
Because burn through distance is proportional to square root of RCS:


I calculated the f-117 RCS by your method, based on the distance of its location by the s-125. Obtained RCS >0.1 m^2. Is this value it's real RCS?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 07:52
by eloise
babybat{}.net wrote:I calculated the f-117 RCS by your method, based on the distance of its location by the s-125. Obtained RCS >0.1 m^2. Is this value it's real RCS?

No, in F-117 case, there was no jamming, so you must use the normal detection range equation instead.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=29022&start=105

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 08:59
by babybat{}.net
eloise wrote:No, in F-117 case, there was no jamming, so you must use the normal detection range equation instead.


But I read in many sources that the f-117 was covered by electronic warfare from other aircraft, and jamming was very actively used throughout the conflict.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 09:24
by eloise
babybat{}.net wrote:But I read in many sources that the f-117 was covered by electronic warfare from other aircraft, and jamming was very actively used throughout the conflict.

Not on the day the aircraft was shot down
Dale Zelko flew the F117 "stealth fighter" - a warplane so advanced that it was all but invisible to enemy radar.

But on the night of 27 March 1999 he was uncomfortable. Weather conditions meant the stealth fighters would not have their usual escort of "Prowler" electronic jamming planes or F16s firing anti-radar missiles.

"I'd never felt so strongly - if there was ever a night, a mission for an F117 to get shot down, it would be this one. I wasn't surprised when it happened," he says.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=vn

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 10:46
by element1loop
element1loop wrote:The US had last month warned against the deal, saying it would be considered as a "significant transaction" and has a potential for imposing tough US sanctions.

Corsair1963 wrote:Do you have a source or sources that say otherwise??? If, so I am all ears.... :wink:


No need to get all winky. :) I don't think there's an indication except for the fairly clear warning given above which indicates it's a significant fly in the ointment from here forwards. This admin isn't as lax about red-lines and stuff--they knew that. btw, I was laughing with you prior, not at you.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 11:22
by falcon.16
eloise wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:
eloise wrote:If you read the whole paragraph, the interesting part isn't in the detection range.
burn-through.png

Irbis E can detect airborne targets with a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of three square meters at ranges of 350-400 km. I will make a very generous assumption in favor of Irbis-E and say that the burn through range against the same target (rcs=3m2) is 300 km or only 14-25% reduction from detection range.
Let count.
Range Bt against J-31 = 300/((3/0.05)^(1/2)) = 39 km



Eloise, can you explain this formule? I do not understand...

You are calculating Burn thorugh for J-31 chinese fighter, and radar its a Irbis.Why do you use data (300 kms and 3 m2) from a Mig-29 type fighter. Why do you not use data from J-31?

And 0,05, what represent this number?

It is very simple
Because burn through distance is proportional to square root of RCS:
That means :
(Burn through distance against Mig-29 in km )/(burn through distance against J-31 in Km) = (square root of Mig-29 rcs) / (square root of J-31 rcs )

So (burn through distance against J-31 in Km) = (Burn through distance against Mig-29 in km )/((square root of Mig-29 rcs) / (square root of J-31 rcs ))
Range Bt against J-31 = 300/((3/0.05)^(1/2)) = 39 km


Thanks Eloise. now i can understand RCS for J-31 = 0,05 m2, and you calculate burn through range from data we know from Mig 29 and irbis E.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 11:31
by eloise
falcon.16 wrote:Thanks Eloise. now i can understand RCS for J-31 = 0,05 m2, and you calculate burn through range from data we know from Mig 29 and irbis E.

You are welcome :wink:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2018, 22:47
by lbk000
weasel1962 wrote:Indian logic is different. They see things always taking into account the Pakistanis.

weasel1962 wrote:The reality is that Pakistan can't really afford anything better than the JF-17 even if the Chinese have already pitched, re-pitched and practically thrown the J-31 (after pitching the J-10) at PAF's doorstep. Same thing happened with the Z-10 helo.

Some good points. Indo/Pakistani emotions are such that they reside in their own microcosm.
One factor I wonder about is how much support the US can give to India before Pakistan starts going from nominally helpful to actively counterproductive. It's unfortunate that Pakistan squats on a nice piece of real estate for running operations in the region.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 02:47
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:
element1loop wrote:The US had last month warned against the deal, saying it would be considered as a "significant transaction" and has a potential for imposing tough US sanctions.

Corsair1963 wrote:Do you have a source or sources that say otherwise??? If, so I am all ears.... :wink:


No need to get all winky. :) I don't think there's an indication except for the fairly clear warning given above which indicates it's a significant fly in the ointment from here forwards. This admin isn't as lax about red-lines and stuff--they knew that. btw, I was laughing with you prior, not at you.



The S400 deal with Russia could hold up any potential sale of F-35's to India. Yet, I've heard nothing from my political sources that have suggested that.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 02:50
by Corsair1963
eloise wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:Thanks Eloise. now i can understand RCS for J-31 = 0,05 m2, and you calculate burn through range from data we know from Mig 29 and irbis E.

You are welcome :wink:



Like we can calculate the range the IRBIS E could detected the J-31 from unclassified sources??? Especially, considering we don't even know it's RCS.....

:doh: :doh: :doh:

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 03:42
by eloise
Corsair1963 wrote:Like we can calculate the range the IRBIS E could detected the J-31 from unclassified sources??? Especially, considering we don't even know it's RCS.....

:doh: :doh: :doh:

Estimation from manufacturer claims.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 08:03
by weasel1962
lbk000 wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Indian logic is different. They see things always taking into account the Pakistanis.

weasel1962 wrote:The reality is that Pakistan can't really afford anything better than the JF-17 even if the Chinese have already pitched, re-pitched and practically thrown the J-31 (after pitching the J-10) at PAF's doorstep. Same thing happened with the Z-10 helo.

Some good points. Indo/Pakistani emotions are such that they reside in their own microcosm.
One factor I wonder about is how much support the US can give to India before Pakistan starts going from nominally helpful to actively counterproductive. It's unfortunate that Pakistan squats on a nice piece of real estate for running operations in the region.


India has always been suspicious of US motives eg Nixon's support of Pakistan in 1971 which is a basic countervailing strategy to avoid single power supremacy on a regional level. What has changed since 1971 is China adopting the same strategy and hence a reduction of US influence. That's why India has never relied on US arms. Sure, Pakistan's location does lend some use to the US but by and large, its the countervailing strategy that prevails. Today, some central asian countries have reduced US dependence on that real estate to an extent.

Of course to a political ignoramus, the F-35 might be the only viable option to the Indians, that is as much simplistic as it is unlikely. Even if the US guarantees full support and no embargo (which in itself requires a fair suspension of disbelief esp across different presidents), the IAF has operated a different fighter inventory and maintenance doctrine. To India watchers, the explanation of why F-16/18s first has been explained in so many articles, posts that there is no point repeating.

P.s. the RCS of 0.05m2 is not a manufacturer claim. Those who do understand RCS knows that its not a constant throughout every single angle. 0.05m2 is an Internet speculation which has not been validated.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 08:45
by edpop

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 08:51
by eloise
weasel1962 wrote:the RCS of 0.05m2 is not a manufacturer claim. 0.05m2 is an Internet speculation which has not been validated.

Didn't it come from the chief designer interview on television?
Image
weasel1962 wrote:Those who do understand RCS knows that its not a constant throughout every single angle

Of course, RCS isn't constant, but it is still possible to get a rough average value
Image

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 10:25
by falcon.16
Corsair1963 wrote:
eloise wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:Thanks Eloise. now i can understand RCS for J-31 = 0,05 m2, and you calculate burn through range from data we know from Mig 29 and irbis E.

You are welcome :wink:



Like we can calculate the range the IRBIS E could detected the J-31 from unclassified sources??? Especially, considering we don't even know it's RCS.....

:doh: :doh: :doh:

If you know estimate RCS of the Target (J31-0,05 m2) and you know detection data from Irbis E on a Mig-29 (350 kms- 3 m2 in a narrow beam/ 200 kms-3 m2 in a normal search), then you can estimate detection range for the J-31 or for other fighter which you know its RCS

But on this case, it was calculate detection range considering irbis E is being jamming for J-31 radar or other asset.

And really it is a big difference.

IMO i think on the case of the F-35, only you could detect it when you see it visually....if you use active jamming.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 11:11
by marsavian
With a head-on RCS of 0.05 sq m the J-20 would be spotted at about 4 times the distance it spotted a F-22/F-35 given equivalent radar performance (which is doubtful too). Stealthy against other aircraft ? Yes. Against F-22/F-35, not really. Look forward to PCA raising the bar again.

p.s. The Su-57 would be spotted at 5 times, Su-27/30 at 15 times.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 14:26
by mixelflick
Thought the Irbis E only flew on the SU-35?? (not Mig-35)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2018, 19:34
by falcon.16
mixelflick wrote:Thought the Irbis E only flew on the SU-35?? (not Mig-35)


And you thought correctly. Irbis E only stay inside Su-35s

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2018, 02:17
by weasel1962
Looks like the deal will be signed today (Friday, India time).

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 077335.cms

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2018, 17:13
by tphuang
I've said this many times, but IAF is making a huge mistake going with S-400. I guess it already has a lot of Su-30 so a super-30 program is expected. But either way, they are not going to be very useful against PLAAF. The reality is that since China has these systems, they are going to very quickly find out every strength and weakness of Irbis radar, Su-30, Su-35 and S-400. They will have su-30/35 signature profile from every angle with every configuration. They will know exactly how to best avoid Irbis or S-400 radar. You can bet China will be doing a lot of exercises pitting J-20 and J-10B/C against flankers and S-400 line up that IAF will be throwing out. China's fortunate that India is so notorious slow with decision making of any kind. Because if I were India, I'd get F-35 asap if that was offered along with the latest SAM that western countries are willing to export. Other that, continue bringing in Rafael. That's a very fine aircraft that PLAAF will not be able to practice against.

As for J-31, you really can't take what they say on TV very seriously. It's really still early in development. In a couple of years, they will pick up the pace. They are going to wait until WS-19 is ready before this goes into production. It will be able to have reap all the fruit from the initial operational experiences of J-20. Unlike with J-20, PLAAF is not in a rush to get this into production until all the elements are in place. The Russians may think J-31 is not up to their specs, but its stealth, sensors, networking and situation awareness will be much better than anything that Russians will be able to produce in near future. And it's maneuverability will be sufficient once it get WS-19.

At this point, what's the status of Russia's AAM programs? Do they have anything to replace R-73/77 that will complete development in the next 10 years?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2018, 18:06
by babybat{}.net
tphuang wrote:The Russians may think J-31 is not up to their specs, but its stealth, sensors, networking and situation awareness will be much better than anything that Russians will be able to produce in near future. And it's maneuverability will be sufficient once it get WS-19.


That's a very bold statement. :D
And while the reality is - the best that PLAAF has is the export version of su-35..

tphuang wrote:At this point, what's the status of Russia's AAM programs? Do they have anything to replace R-73/77 that will complete development in the next 10 years?


"RVV-MD" and "RVV-SD" programs
The indices of the serial products you can find in the in open sources.
Both products are purchased and are in service..

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2018, 18:53
by babybat{}.net
eloise wrote:
babybat{}.net wrote:But I read in many sources that the f-117 was covered by electronic warfare from other aircraft, and jamming was very actively used throughout the conflict.


Not on the day the aircraft was shot down


Thank you, I saw the value of f-117 RCS in the russian air defense directories and it is really much less than 0.1m^2.
So, if there was no jamming , then everything is more or less clear.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 05 Oct 2018, 19:04
by SpudmanWP
Keep in mind that the F-117 was shot down at a range of less than 10 miles and since it had no RWR, it had no idea that the radar was even out there or looking for it. Modern fighters will not have that problem.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2018, 03:58
by weasel1962
tphuang wrote:I've said this many times, but IAF is making a huge mistake going with S-400. I guess it already has a lot of Su-30 so a super-30 program is expected. But either way, they are not going to be very useful against PLAAF.


Once all other probabilities are eliminated, the only remaining option, no matter how improbable could be the right one. In this case, that could be how the Indians really think of the probability of fighting the PLAAF.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/china ... 97489.html

On reports about the presence of over 50 Chinese aircraft in the Tibet region, Dhanoa said it is not a threat


Can't fault the IAF chief's statement on facts. no matter how much one might disagree the actual threat really is.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2019, 16:54
by zerion
BAE Systems proposes its aircraft carrier design to Indian Navy

Writing in Australian Defense Magazine published on April 4, Nigel Pittaway quoted a representative of BAE Systems as saying the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier design was being offered to India. The HMS Queen Elizabeth is in service with the Royal Navy and is said to be the most powerful aircraft carrier after the US Navy's nuclear-powered carriers, the Indian newspaper The Week comments...

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... -navy.html

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2019, 10:45
by Corsair1963
zerion wrote:
BAE Systems proposes its aircraft carrier design to Indian Navy

Writing in Australian Defense Magazine published on April 4, Nigel Pittaway quoted a representative of BAE Systems as saying the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carrier design was being offered to India. The HMS Queen Elizabeth is in service with the Royal Navy and is said to be the most powerful aircraft carrier after the US Navy's nuclear-powered carriers, the Indian newspaper The Week comments...

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... -navy.html



Many don't take the QEC as a serious option for the Indian Navy. Yet, I am not so sure as the cost to design and develop a large aircraft carrier can't be understated. Plus, considering the problems India is already having with the New Vikrant currently under construction. Combined with a vastly expanding PLAN.

India would be crazy at least not to give it serious consideration. :wink:

It's also worth noting that the Indian Navy has expressed interest in the F-35C. Which, would be a very good fit for a EMALS/AAG equipped QEC. That would allow India to close the gap with China....(capability wise at least)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 25 Apr 2019, 20:15
by marsavian
The Indians will not be allowed F-35C due to S-400 purchase so most likely future carrier aircraft are Russian or Rafale M or even SCAF/NGF.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 01:35
by Corsair1963
US may offer F-35 fighter if India scraps S-400 deal

The US has been increasing pressure on India over the S-400 deal that was signed in October last year.

By Manu Pubby

Updated: Jun 08, 2019

NEW DELHI: The US could offer the fifth-generation F-35 fighter jet for both the air force and navy, if the $5.43-billion deal with Russia for the S-400 air defense system is dropped.

The US has been increasing pressure on India over the S-400 deal that was signed in October last year, with senior Washington officials saying it would have a direct impact on any high technology cooperation in the future.

India is keeping a close watch on what happens with Turkey, a NATO ally, that has already signed up for the S-400 and has been threatened by the US with sanctions and the cancellation of its contract for F-35s.

ET has learnt that senior industry leaders as well as officials from the US are visiting India, even as the deadline for action against Turkey is closing in. The defense ministry, meanwhile, is expected to shortly move ahead on the acquisition of 110 fighter jets for the air force under a strategic partnership program. The navy is also preparing technical requirements for its upcoming purchase of 57 combat aircraft.

While no official request has been received from India and the F-35 has not been formally put on offer by the US, the aircraft could be pitched as the only air platform that will be equipped and upgraded to beat the S-400 air defense systems that have also been acquired by China.


Like Turkey, India has stood strong on its purchase of the S-400 but it is learnt that only partial payments have been made by New Delhi, given banking sanctions that are already in place for dealing with Russian defense entities. More stringent CAATSA (Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act) sanctions have also been threatened against nations purchasing the S-400 from Russia..................


https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 698536.cms

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2020, 03:07
by spazsinbad
IF the Shornet JUMPS GOOD then likely NO F-35 for INDIA but do I know? NO. Anyhoo awaiting developments iz I. :doh:

OOPS - just noticed - is SAAB in the porkie selling business again - have they said the GRIPPING GRIPE N is flat deckable?
Boeing plans trials of its Super Hornet jets on ski-jump ramp to meet Indian requirements
06 Feb 2020 Snehesh Alex Philip

"Top Boeing official Thom Breckenridge said the aircraft will fulfill the Indian requirements and that they are in discussion with the Indian Navy for the trials.

Lucknow: US Defence major Boeing is planning trials of its F/A-18 Block III Super Hornet aircraft on ski-jump ramp to prove its ability as the company eyes the multi billion-dollar deal of the Indian Navy for 57 fighter jets.

“Testing plans are underway. We will rigorously check our aircraft on ski jump,” said Thom Breckenridge, Vice-President, International Sales (Strike, Surveillance and Mobility) at Boeing Defence, Space and Security, at the DefExpo 2020, which is being held in Lucknow. Refusing to get into any specific timeline, Breckenridge said that the aircraft will fulfill the Indian requirements and they are in discussion with the Indian Navy for the trials....

...Breckenridge said the aircraft would be able to land with the arrestor wire used by India and there is no need for any new type....

...The idea is to have another type of fighters for its first indigenous aircraft carrier, which is under construction in Cochin, and also for the second indigenous aircraft carrier, which is still in the planning stage. Currently, six planes are compatible for aircraft carrier flying — Rafale (Dassault, France), F/A-18 (Boeing, US), MIG-29K (Russia), F-35B, F-35C (Lockheed Martin, US) and Gripen (Saab, Sweden). [wait wut Gripen? Hoo let the porkies out?]

One of the foreign fighters, which will finally be chosen, along with the indigenous twin-engine deck-based fighter (TEDBF) aircraft will become the mainstay of the Navy for the next 30-40 years, a Navy officer said...."
[TEDBF TEDtalk [TEJAS N has bin arrested already]: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/if-deve ... ts-2159016 ]

1st TEJAS N carrier arrest 11 Jan 2020: https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/01 ... -deck.html

[Better [not good English tho] TEDBF info: https://idrw.org/how-tedbf-program-unfo ... y-and-ada/ ]

Source: https://theprint.in/defence/boeing-plan ... ts/360878/

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2020, 05:54
by spazsinbad
To SAAB: "GET IT ON - BANG A GONG - GET IT ON' (an old song goes like that) where's DA GRIPPING CARRIER CAPABLE?
India Prepares For New Fighter Tender
06 Feb 2020 Reuben F. Johnson

"...Needed: A Shorter Acquisition Cycle
What makes this impending competition all the more critical for India’s future defense posture is that the next-generation of aircraft carriers that will be coming online with the Indian Navy that will require a force of CATOBAR (catapult-assisted take-off barrier-arrested recovery) fighter aircraft. Both the Rafale-M and Boeing’s Super Hornet are available for this mission and Saab has a design for a carrier-capable Maritime Gripen variant of the JAS-39E on the shelf that can be realized within a short time frame. [OH YEAH]

What remains to be seen is whether or not a new tender can be carried out without making it a repeat of the arduous seven-year process that the original M-MRCA turned out to be. Suggestions had been made last year that a new tender could be carried out without an extensive set of flight trials to shorten the evaluation and down-select cycles.

While there is no agreement on which aircraft type or types fit the requirements of both the IAF and the Indian Navy, there are numerous observers both inside and outside of India who disparage the manner in which the selection of a new fighter type has been carried out.

“As it stands now, the methodology for buying a new fighter is an objectively dysfunctional process,” said one Indian aerospace expert. “The problem is that it will never change as long as the OEMs keep rewarding those who propagate that process without demanding that it change.”

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ter-tender

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Feb 2020, 18:09
by lbk000
Apparently, India is already thinking about making its own Gripen -- the Tejas must go on.
Forget the F-35, it's Gripens all the way down.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2020, 00:49
by madrat
That pic is a twin engine, so more like a Tejas-Rafale crossover.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2020, 07:02
by Corsair1963
I doubt the LCA MK II or MWF will ever be developed. Let alone any twin engine based version...... :?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2020, 07:13
by spazsinbad
Corsair1963 wrote:I doubt the LCA MK II or MWF will ever be developed. Let alone any twin engine based version...... :?

Already a twin engine Indian new design TEDBF is being looked at - where it goes - no one knows: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53865&p=434397&hilit=Tejas#p434397

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2020, 07:33
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I doubt the LCA MK II or MWF will ever be developed. Let alone any twin engine based version...... :?

Already a twin engine Indian new design TEDBF is being looked at - where it goes - no one knows: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53865&p=434397&hilit=Tejas#p434397



India can't seem to find the money to buy the planned 83 LCA MK IA's. Nor, fund development of the MK II. (MWF?) So, don't see them developing what would be a totally new 4.5 Generation Design. Which, would take them another 20 years....

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 10 Feb 2020, 07:34
by Corsair1963
lbk000 wrote:Apparently, India is already thinking about making its own Gripen -- the Tejas must go on.
Forget the F-35, it's Gripens all the way down.



Honestly, nothing but a "concept".......

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 15:54
by spazsinbad
Super Hornet to undergo ski-jump launches
12 Feb 2020 Greg Waldron

"...“The [ski-jump] testing is going to take place sometime in the first quarter at [NAS] Patuxent River,” says Shockey....

...the Indian Navy has elected to proceed with an ambitious all-new twin-engined carrier-based fighter, abandoning its proposed Hindustan Aeronautics LCA Navy MkII."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/singapore- ... 00.article

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2020, 12:35
by spazsinbad
Must be a repost but I'll repost it anyways - dis is de HORNET:
“The McDonnell F-/A-18A first flew from a ski jump on 26 Sep 1983. It flew 91 ski jump tests at ramp angles of 6- and 9-degrees and achieved takeoff distance reductions of 66%.” http://defesa.forums-free.com/tejas-ind ... 64s50.html

JPG: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/al_datr/ ... iginal.jpg

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2020, 15:38
by steve2267
Invincible-class had 12° ramp exit angles, and HMS QE & POW have 12.5° ramps, have the Indians specified a ramp angle yet?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2020, 20:35
by spazsinbad
The ramp at Pax River angle can be adjusted IIRC. However these days data can be massaged by computer if angle is diff.

From 1952 a PDF about catyapult to a curved ramp for some reason specified in the PDF I guess:

AN ANALYSIS OF THE EFFECT OF A CURVED RAMP ON THE TAKE-OFF PERFORMANCE OF CATAPULT-LAUNCHED AIRPLANES
05 Nov 1952 Wilmer H. Reed, NACA

"Summary
Some of the newer airplanee designed for carrier operations have high wing loads and wing plan forms with low lift-curve slopes. These configurations may require special catapulting equipment or techniques to prevent an excessive loss of height when catapulted from the deck at a low attitude angle. [nose raised by raising nose gear for catapulting - UK F-4K] A curved ramp installed on the deck forward of the catapult release point is considered as a possible solution to this problem. Its function would be to impart an initial upward vertical velocity to provide more time for the controls to pitch the airplane to the required angle of attack before settling could occur and also to impart an initial nose-up pitching velocity so that the development of lift would be more rapid.

An analysis of take-off performance is made by considering a ramp of circular-arc profile 50 feet long with a total rise of 1.73 feet. The assumption that the landing gear is rigid is used throughout the analysis. A straight-wing conventional fighter jet airplane and a low-aspect-ratio delta-wing airplane are used to illustrate the effect of the ramp. Results of flight-path computations are presented for launchings from a straight deck and the curved ramp under conditions of insufficient lift at the instant of take-off. For the case of the straight-deck launchings, the airplanes considered settled from 6 to 9 feet below deck level, whereas for similar launching from the curved ramp there was no tendency to lose altitude."

Source: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 087290.pdf (0.9Mb)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2020, 20:45
by steve2267
spazsinbad wrote:The ramp at Pax River angle can be adjusted IIRC. However these days data can be massaged by computer if angle is diff.


I imagine the aero / performance data can be massaged. I guess I was thinking more in terms of mechanical / dynamic effects on the gear getting smashed down by the sudden change in angle.

However, as I type this... it occurs to me the "sudden" change in vehicle path or motion may be very gradual compared to the highly dynamic effect of a carrier landing (controlled crash).

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2020, 21:12
by spazsinbad
Yes the initial Harrier Ski Jump trials revealed the need to strengthen the landing gear bits IIRC for ski jumping launch? Yes the vertical landing stresses the gear but the ramp needed to be curved sideways to reduce stress on the gear IIRC?
Royal Navy Aircraft Carrier Ski Jumps – a History
12 Aug 2019 ORIGINAL from SAVEtheRoyalNavy https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/royal- ... a-history/

"...Lessons learned
The ski jump is a relatively cheap and simple addition to the carriers, being a straightforward steel construction with no moving parts. However it was discovered, once in service that apparently small differences in the build quality of the ramps of the three ships affected the life of the Sea Harrier undercarriage. The original design work assumed an absolutely smooth ramp but small ruts or imperfections in the surface were enough to cause cracking on some aircraft landing gear. This issue was expensively resolved and the lesson led to higher design tolerances being specified for the QEC ramps. Additionally, the F-35 has a wide tricycle gear which is more affected by small bumps, demanding more careful ramp design than for the Harrier’s tandem main gear. The centre section of the QEC deck is slightly cambered to help water runoff, further complicating the interface with the ramp...."

Source: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/a-short-history-of-ski-ramps/

Some good references for ski jumps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski-jump_(aviation)
AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS FROM RUNWAYS WITH INCLINED RAMPS (SKI JUMP)
May 1991 Elijah W. Turner

"ABSTRACT
The use of inclined ramps to launch aircraft from short runways is proposed as a possible solution to the runway denial problem in Europe. Past efforts to launch aircraft in this manner, including a very successful program conducted by the US Navy to launch the T-2C, F-14, and F-18 aircraft, are reviewed.

An analytical study was conducted for the launch of the F-16, F-15, A-10, A-7D and F-4E from inclined ramps. The takeoff ground roll, stabilizer trim setting, landing gear loads and flight trajectory are reported. The F-15 was selected as a candidate aircraft for a USAF flight test program to be patterned after the Navy program and additional studies were performed. Perturbations in center of gravity, thrust, and ramp exit angle were investigated.

A ramp contour was designed for launch of the F-15, F-16, A-7D and A-10 which minimized the length and height of the ramp while maintaining the landing gear loads below 90 percent of their design limit.

1.2 Ski-Jump Launch...
...This [USN] program generated an analytical effort in 1979 followed by a flight test program to launch the T2C, F-14, and F-18 aircraft from inclined ramps. A metal ramp was constructed that could be modified to give ramp exit angles of 3, 6, and 9 degrees. The ramp was 112.1 feet long and 8.58 feet high at the exit when configured for the 9 degree exit angle, measured from the horizontal. A total of 112 launches of the T-2C, 28 of the F-14, and 91 of the F/A-18 were made. The minimum ground roll for the F/A-18 was 385 feet at a gross weight of 32,800 lbs. This ramp effectively reduced the takeoff roll of the F-18 by more than 50 percent...."

Source: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a237265.pdf (0.9Mb)

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2020, 21:44
by spazsinbad
Google can't tell the diff between old & new INS VIKRANT which is annoying so:

https://the-drive-2.imgix.net/https%3A% ... c1fee13bae

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 22 Aug 2020, 06:28
by spazsinbad
BOING! is boinging the Shornet on the SkYjump at NASpaxRubber these days-reports to follow I'm guessing-GO INDIA not!
F/A-18 Super Hornet Is Now Undergoing Ski Jump Launch Trials For The Indian Navy
19 Aug 2020 JOSEPH TREVITHICK

"The Boeing fighter jet is vying for an Indian Navy contract and that service only has aircraft carriers with ski jumps at present.

Boeing has been flying an F/A-18E/F Super Hornet off a ground-based ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland. This is part of a demonstration effort for the Indian Navy to show that the aircraft can operate from short take-off but arrested recovery configured (STOBAR) aircraft carriers, such as the INS Vikramaditya and the future INS Vikrant....

..."Boeing and the U.S. Navy are in the beginning phases of operating an F/A-18 Super Hornet from a ski jump at Naval Air Station Patuxent River to demonstrate it is STOBAR compliant for the Indian Navy," Justin Gibson, a Boeing spokesperson, told The War Zone. "Boeing completed extensive analysis and more than 150 flight simulations on F/A-18 compatibility with Indian aircraft carriers, and while our assessment has shown the Block III Super Hornet is very capable of launching off a ski jump, this is the next step in demonstrating that capability. More details will be released upon the conclusion of the test demonstration."...

...The Indian government has expressed interest in acquiring a catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) carrier in the past. Last year it emerged that BAE Systems had proposed a design based on the U.K. Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth class. The HMS Queen Elizabeth and her sister ship the HMS Prince of Wales are both short-take off and vertical landing (STOVL) types with ski jumps, but no arresting system. It's not clear whether the ship that BAE pitched to the Indians is STOBAR or CATOBAR derivative. There were CATOBAR variants of the Queen Elizabeth design among the initial proposals to the Royal Navy.

What is clear is that the Indians have plans to expand their carrier fleets, which would also require additional carrier-based aircraft. Proving that the Super Hornet, which is already CATOBAR capable, is also able to fly from STOBAR carriers could give it an advantage in the competition as India would not necessarily need to acquire multiple types to operate from different types of carriers in the future. The MiG-29K, for instance, cannot fly from CATOBAR carriers, for instance.

The Super Hornet, in its latest advanced Block III configuration, which you can read more about in detail in this past War Zone piece, is also in the running for a separate Indian Air Force fighter jet mega-contract, which is looking to acquire 126 new fighters for that service. A deal with the Indian Navy could further tip the scales toward the F/A-18E/F due to the cost benefits that India could realize from logistics, infrastructure, and supply chain commonality.

Whatever happens, it will very exciting to learn more about how the Super Hornet has been faring in these ski jump tests at Patuxent River."

Source: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... ndian-navy

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 04 Sep 2020, 14:16
by jessmo112
More buzz about India and the F-35.
If India had even 50 this would pose a significant threat to China. Remember how less than 40 F-117s pulverized IRAQ

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-more-rafal ... licy-oped/

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 05 Sep 2020, 13:29
by mixelflick
jessmo112 wrote:More buzz about India and the F-35.
If India had even 50 this would pose a significant threat to China. Remember how less than 40 F-117s pulverized IRAQ

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-more-rafal ... licy-oped/


How is this justifiable, especially given the F-35 was denied to Turkey, a NATO ally? They didn't get them due to the fact they field the S-400.

Does India not do the same?

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2020, 04:12
by Corsair1963
jessmo112 wrote:More buzz about India and the F-35.
If India had even 50 this would pose a significant threat to China. Remember how less than 40 F-117s pulverized IRAQ

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-more-rafal ... licy-oped/



The F-35 is the only viable option for India but don't expect a deal in the short-term. Yet, if Trump is re-elected it could happen before his second term is over.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 07 Sep 2020, 04:14
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:More buzz about India and the F-35.
If India had even 50 this would pose a significant threat to China. Remember how less than 40 F-117s pulverized IRAQ

https://eurasiantimes.com/no-more-rafal ... licy-oped/


How is this justifiable, especially given the F-35 was denied to Turkey, a NATO ally? They didn't get them due to the fact they field the S-400.

Does India not do the same?


They would have to resolve the S400 issue. Yet, both sides are more than willing....

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 08 Sep 2020, 14:22
by mixelflick
Well, I guess stranger things have happened.... like the F-15EX for USAF lol.

So it's possible, although I'd say still unlikely.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2020, 03:19
by jessmo112
Why selling the F-35 to countries with s-400 is a bad idea.

https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/mauro-g ... -bad-idea/

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2020, 04:35
by Corsair1963
It's very much in the interest of both India and the US to make a deal over the F-35.

Re: India and the F-35?

Unread postPosted: 09 Sep 2020, 23:55
by spad_s.xiii
jessmo112 wrote:Why selling the F-35 to countries with s-400 is a bad idea.

https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/mauro-g ... -bad-idea/

Interesting interview and interesting report they linked to ("Bursting the Bubble, Russian A2/AD in the Baltic Sea Region:
Capabilities, Countermeasures, and Implications"): https://www.foi.se/rest-api/report/FOI-R--4651--SE