The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 05:30
by neptune
Pentagon officials brief Germany on F-35 fighter jet

Andrea Shalal, July 11, 2017

BERLIN (Reuters) - Pentagon officials briefed German military on the Lockheed Martin Corp F-35 fighter jet this week but Berlin said no procurement decisions have been taken. Germany, which is looking to replace its aging Tornado fighter jets, is due to decide in mid-2018 about whether to start a new fighter development program or buy an existing fighter.
A German Defense Ministry spokesman said the decision will hinge largely on assessments of how long the Tornados can stay in use. "The F-35 is one of many options we are exploring," the spokesman said. Any move to buy a U.S. warplane could run into political resistance in Germany, which has strong labor unions, and given a big push by Europe to develop its own military equipment. The German Air Force asked the U.S. military in May for a classified briefing on the F-35 fighter jet as part of an "in-depth evaluation of market available solutions." Germany's interest in the F-35 took some European defense industry officials by surprise, given a big push by European aerospace giant Airbus and other European defense companies to develop a next-generation European fighter.

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKBN19W16N

Lockheed, which is already building the F-35 fighter for several other NATO allies - the United States, Britain, Italy, Turkey, Norway, the Netherlands and Denmark - also plans to provide the German defense ministry with information about opportunities for German industry to participate in the F-35 program, a source familiar with the matter told Reuters. This week's briefings took place in Bonn, Germany, on Monday and Tuesday and involved a German one-star general, as well as working groups looking at specific weapons requirements and capabilities, according to another source briefed on the matter. "This meeting is consistent with the standard Foreign Military Sales process where we explain the path to F-35 acquisition and provide a top-level F-35 capabilities brief," F-35 program office spokesman Joe DellaVedova said. The German military plans to send Washington a formal "letter of request" for information about the F-35 and Boeing Co's F-15 and F/A-18E/F fighter jets later this summer, the ministry spokesman said. It will also gather information from Airbus about its work on a next-generation weapons system, he added. Experts also see the F-35 as the leading contender in a Belgian fighter competition that includes the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Aviation Rafale. Sweden's SAAB and Boeing have withdrawn from that tender.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 06:54
by sunstersun
I'd be a lot more confident in this if relations with Germany weren't so god damn frosty.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 07:58
by krorvik
It would sure be nice to be able to dial in another F-35 user in Europe - the advantages to common infrastructure (as stated quite clearly by Belgium too) are too big to ignore.

As for German unions - they are an integral part of German worklife. Fortunately - they are note the ones making large policy decisions on defense equipment there, or in any other country with similar systems. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2017, 19:04
by talkitron
krorvik wrote:As for German unions - they are an integral part of German worklife. Fortunately - they are note the ones making large policy decisions on defense equipment there, or in any other country with similar systems. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that.


The focus on labor unions is narrow but the reference to unions stands in for all interest groups who would benefit from domestic design and production of a fighter aircraft. There would be a whole hierarchy of German subcontractors with relationships to Airbus who could work on a fighter program.

Merkel has an 88% chance of being the next chancellor according to the betting-aggregation site below (based on >$240KUS in bets). I have no idea of her relationship to these interest groups. Still, if the goal is to get to 2% defense spending, spending that money to please domestic interest groups rather on real military capability might be seen as smart politics. Still, the monetary cost of developing and producing an F-35 class fighter is huge and the Germans might get sticker shock and just buy F-35s.

https://electionbettingodds.com

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 09:24
by krorvik
Yep, that would be their greatest concern I think. A quick look at the price tag for developing the F-35 should, at least, sober them up a bit...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 14:32
by bigjku
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-franc ... 9Y1FJ?il=0

No they aren't buying F-35. They will likely do Eurofighter 2.0 and get the same results they got not buying F-15's. Europe will build an F-35/22 hybrid about 3 years before the US is onto the next thing.

In all honesty none of this matters at all until they get the right engine program in place. There are years and billions to be spent just get get to where the US is on combat engines. Let alone to where adaptive cycle engines are about to take the US.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 14:43
by ricnunes
bigjku wrote:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence-idUSKBN19Y1FJ?il=0

No they aren't buying F-35. They will likely do Eurofighter 2.0 and get the same results they got not buying F-15's. Europe will build an F-35/22 hybrid about 3 years before the US is onto the next thing.

In all honesty none of this matters at all until they get the right engine program in place. There are years and billions to be spent just get get to where the US is on combat engines. Let alone to where adaptive cycle engines are about to take the US.


LoL! By 2060 (not a typo, two thousand and sixty) France/Germany should have their future fighter aircraft which will have similar capabilities as the F-35 but it a timeframe where the F-35 will probably starting to get replaced by something else. :roll:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 17:31
by talkitron
ricnunes wrote:LoL! By 2060 (not a typo, two thousand and sixty) France/Germany should have their future fighter aircraft which will have similar capabilities as the F-35 but it a timeframe where the F-35 will probably starting to get replaced by something else. :roll:


Yeah, the Eurofighter Typhoon is just now getting ground attack capabilities like the F-15E had in 1989 and the air-to-air performance is competitive to the F-15E with equal munitions. So the Eurofighter took 30 years to equal the F-15E. The US should screw Israeli objections and aggressively export the F-35 to the Persian Gulf states to cut down on the financial viability of the Turkish, South Korean/Indonesian, Japanese, and now French/German fighter projects. Just like the Rafale and Typhoon added little to the F-15E in terms of military capability, these other projects will add little military capability to the F-35.

Maybe the UK will chip in some money for Penetrating Counter Air?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 18:59
by durahawk
talkitron wrote:
ricnunes wrote:LoL! By 2060 (not a typo, two thousand and sixty) France/Germany should have their future fighter aircraft which will have similar capabilities as the F-35 but it a timeframe where the F-35 will probably starting to get replaced by something else. :roll:


Yeah, the Eurofighter Typhoon is just now getting ground attack capabilities like the F-15E had in 1989 and the air-to-air performance is competitive to the F-15E with equal munitions. So the Eurofighter took 30 years to equal the F-15E. The US should screw Israeli objections and aggressively export the F-35 to the Persian Gulf states to cut down on the financial viability of the Turkish, South Korean/Indonesian, Japanese, and now French/German fighter projects. Just like the Rafale and Typhoon added little to the F-15E in terms of military capability, these other projects will add little military capability to the F-35.

Maybe the UK will chip in some money for Penetrating Counter Air?


You guys are looking at it all wrong. The prime objective for the Typhoon project was to create a large scale pan-European Government funded workshare stimulus program. Creating an effective combat aircraft in line with western peers was merely a secondary objective. True, an egregious amount of capital was spent, but since most of it stayed within the EU, objective accomplished!

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 19:17
by Tiger05
bigjku wrote:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence-idUSKBN19Y1FJ?il=0

No they aren't buying F-35. They will likely do Eurofighter 2.0 and get the same results they got not buying F-15's. Europe will build an F-35/22 hybrid about 3 years before the US is onto the next thing.


They were looking at the F-35 to replace the Tornado in the 2020s. This new program is to replace Eurofighters/Rafales in the longer term (2030s-2040s). I dont exclude the possibility that they will still procure the F-35 and at the same time pursue that new fighter development but we will see.

Btw why should Germany have bought F-15s??

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 19:28
by bigjku
Tiger05 wrote:
bigjku wrote:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence-idUSKBN19Y1FJ?il=0

No they aren't buying F-35. They will likely do Eurofighter 2.0 and get the same results they got not buying F-15's. Europe will build an F-35/22 hybrid about 3 years before the US is onto the next thing.


They were looking at the F-35 to replace the Tornado in the 2020s. This new program is to replace Eurofighters/Rafales in the longer term (2030s-2040s). I dont exclude the possibility that they will still procure the F-35 and at the same time pursue that new fighter development but we will see.

Btw why should Germany have bought F-15s??


To replace their F-4's frankly.

The main concept is that the Eurofighter has no real reason to exist. We are getting some percentage improvement over the F-15 for a huge investment. The program as someone else stated is basically at its core a jobs program. It is what it is. Nothing against it but as an aircraft it really doesn't bring a lot new to the table that couldn't have been bought off the shelf. Any improvements on the F-15 are in the margins.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 19:38
by botsing
bigjku wrote:The main concept is that the Eurofighter has no real reason to exist. We are getting some percentage improvement over the F-15 for a huge investment. The program as someone else stated is basically at its core a jobs program.

I would say it is a job and technology investment/program for Europe. I would not be surprised with the economics involved if this actually has a profit on the grander scale (jobs, R&D and education).

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 21:02
by Tiger05
talkitron wrote:
ricnunes wrote:LoL! By 2060 (not a typo, two thousand and sixty) France/Germany should have their future fighter aircraft which will have similar capabilities as the F-35 but it a timeframe where the F-35 will probably starting to get replaced by something else. :roll:


Yeah, the Eurofighter Typhoon is just now getting ground attack capabilities like the F-15E had in 1989 and the air-to-air performance is competitive to the F-15E with equal munitions. So the Eurofighter took 30 years to equal the F-15E. The US should screw Israeli objections and aggressively export the F-35 to the Persian Gulf states to cut down on the financial viability of the Turkish, South Korean/Indonesian, Japanese, and now French/German fighter projects. Just like the Rafale and Typhoon added little to the F-15E in terms of military capability, these other projects will add little military capability to the F-35.


Why even compare the Typhoon to the F-15E? One was conceived as a pure interceptor with A2G capabilities added later as an afterthought while the other is a mud-mover. Apples and oranges really.

bigjku wrote:
Tiger05 wrote:
bigjku wrote:http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-germany-defence-idUSKBN19Y1FJ?il=0

No they aren't buying F-35. They will likely do Eurofighter 2.0 and get the same results they got not buying F-15's. Europe will build an F-35/22 hybrid about 3 years before the US is onto the next thing.


They were looking at the F-35 to replace the Tornado in the 2020s. This new program is to replace Eurofighters/Rafales in the longer term (2030s-2040s). I dont exclude the possibility that they will still procure the F-35 and at the same time pursue that new fighter development but we will see.

Btw why should Germany have bought F-15s??


To replace their F-4's frankly.

The main concept is that the Eurofighter has no real reason to exist. We are getting some percentage improvement over the F-15 for a huge investment. The program as someone else stated is basically at its core a jobs program. It is what it is. Nothing against it but as an aircraft it really doesn't bring a lot new to the table that couldn't have been bought off the shelf. Any improvements on the F-15 are in the margins.


Thats a very US-centric point of view there... Europeans have their own aerospace industry. Its understable that they tend to favor a "home-made" solution as much as possible. Nothing wrong with that. Buying F-15s off-the shelf from the US would have provided next to no benefits for European aerospace companies, not to mention no R&D work as well thus making them lag behind, etc.

And i think you guys are being too harsh on the Typhoon. Yes, the program was a mess (largely due to the end of the Cold War which caused a lot of delays) but the aircraft itself turned out to be a fine jet. Pilots love it. I disagree that it is barely an improvement over the F-15. It has phenomenal pure 'raw' performances and climb rate, is more technology advanced, has more advanced sensors (IRST, sensor fusion...) and weapons (Meteor), has more growth potential, etc. FWIW the jet performed very well against F-15C/E during joint exercices.

OTOH i admit that the latest Eagle versions (F-15SG/SA, etc) are very impressive but keep in mind that they werent an option when the Typhoon was designed in the late 1980s/early 90s. F-15C was already out of production at that time and the F-15E was just coming online. Hindsight is 20/20.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 21:09
by bigjku
Europe is caught between two chairs. You don't spend enough to support a really cutting edge military industry buy you don't want to buy everything overseas either. You can't even really agree to buy the same things from Europe. At the present budgets Europe can do one of two things.

One field a credible force by minimizing R&D expenses.

Two support the industrial complex but have large capability gaps that go unfilled.

Because of a diminished threat Europe has been able to do number 2 and rely on the US to provide SEAD or tankers or whatever it is that Europe is missing.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 21:16
by SpudmanWP
Why even compare the Typhoon to the F-15E? One was conceived as a pure interceptor with A2G capabilities added later as an afterthought while the other is a mud-mover. Apples and oranges really.


Calling the F-15E a "mud-mover" is like calling the F-11 and dogfighter.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 22:33
by talkitron
Tiger05 wrote:Why even compare the Typhoon to the F-15E? One was conceived as a pure interceptor with A2G capabilities added later as an afterthought while the other is a mud-mover. Apples and oranges really.


The F-15C is the premiere A2A aircraft of its generation and the F-15E is the same airframe with some additions for air to ground. Both the F-15 series the Typhoon are high end airframes: two engines and high performance. Both are part of the fourth generation. Both can have comparable avionics installed and the Typhoon program was certainly not mainly motivated by avionics upgrades.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 22:36
by vilters
EUROPE?
What Europe, where Europe?

We need at least 10 years of political discussions to find out we disagree more then we agreed to agree.

Europe is a political mess, with all main countries having their own industrial priorities.
- The Tornado mess.
- The Typhoon mess.
- The A-400 mess.
- Take ALL helicopters build after the 80's. ALL of them......

Ya, ya, ya, they all look good on paper, but when you dig a bit below the surface?
Nobody is satisfied.

Oh, did I mention the helicopter mess? Now , "that's what I call a monster fuck-up". Europe? Must be a Joke, right?

Europe; lots of public discussions to satisfy each countries voters, but when the money has to come on the table? Everybody protects its own industry.

And this poison sits even in the F-35.
Because each participant country wants, no => no => no, => NEEDS its own share of the workload to "protect" choosing the F-35 to its own population.

Come on,
without all this, each aviation program (including the F-35) would cost half of what it costs now.

Europe? An paper collection of individual protective countries. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 23:33
by Tiger05
talkitron wrote:
Tiger05 wrote:Why even compare the Typhoon to the F-15E? One was conceived as a pure interceptor with A2G capabilities added later as an afterthought while the other is a mud-mover. Apples and oranges really.


The F-15C is the premiere A2A aircraft of its generation and the F-15E is the same airframe with some additions for air to ground. Both the F-15 series the Typhoon are high end airframes: two engines and high performance. Both are part of the fourth generation. Both can have comparable avionics installed and the Typhoon program was certainly not mainly motivated by avionics upgrades.


The F-15E is a strike-optimized version of the F-15 so yes it is mainly a mud-mover. The USAF certainly use it as a mud-mover in any case. I doubt that they would ever be used to fly classic air superiority missions. That is the task of the F-22 and F-15C. Note that they Saudis who bought both Typhoons and F-15S use the former primarily for A2A and the latter for A2G...

Typhoon is 4.5 gen btw.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2017, 23:50
by wrightwing
The E models while primarily used for A2G, are equally adept at A2A. They train for both missions. As for generations, the upgrades the Es are receiving will ensure that they're in no way inferior to Typhoons, with regard to avionics/sensors.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 00:02
by Tiger05
vilters wrote:- The Tornado mess.
- The Typhoon mess.
- The A-400 mess.
- Take ALL helicopters build after the 80's. ALL of them......

Ya, ya, ya, they all look good on paper, but when you dig a bit below the surface?
Nobody is satisfied.

Oh, did I mention the helicopter mess? Now , "that's what I call a monster fuck-up


Nice exaggeration. You make the classic error of mistaking a program's troubled development for the end product. Were the Typhoon and A400 programs mismanaged? Absolutely. Does that mean they are underperforming junks that failed to live to their promises? No. Most F-35 critics make the same mistake btw.

"Nobody is satisfied". Really? :roll: That is a laughable statement. Especially regarding the helicopters since Airbus Helicopters is a global leader in terms of market share. I guess they must do something right after all. :lmao:

And btw, what is wrong with the Tornado? Not to the first time i see you bashing the plane. I dont recall it having a troubled development or underperforming. It has now been 35 years since it entered service and it is still going strong today so what is the issue here? Please do tell us.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 01:17
by gc
Tiger05 wrote:
vilters wrote:- The Tornado mess.
- The Typhoon mess.
- The A-400 mess.
- Take ALL helicopters build after the 80's. ALL of them......

Ya, ya, ya, they all look good on paper, but when you dig a bit below the surface?
Nobody is satisfied.

Oh, did I mention the helicopter mess? Now , "that's what I call a monster fuck-up


Nice exaggeration. You make the classic error of mistaking a program's troubled development for the end product. Were the Typhoon and A400 programs mismanaged? Absolutely. Does that mean they are underperforming junks that failed to live to their promises? No. Most F-35 critics make the same mistake btw.

"Nobody is satisfied". Really? :roll: That is a laughable statement. Especially regarding the helicopters since Airbus Helicopters is a global leader in terms of market share. I guess they must do something right after all. :lmao:

And btw, what is wrong with the Tornado? Not to the first time i see you bashing the plane. I dont recall it having a troubled development or underperforming. It has now been 35 years since it entered service and it is still going strong today so what is the issue here? Please do tell us.


No doubt the Typhoon, A400M and Eurocopter Tiger are great products, but their overall capabilities and flexibility are still significantly limited compared to platforms like the F15E, F-16, F-18E/F, Rafale, C-17, C-130J and AH-64s. Sadly till now the Typhoon has pretty limited air to ground capabilities and weapon choices.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 02:26
by sferrin
Tiger05 wrote:I doubt that they would ever be used to fly classic air superiority missions.


Tell that to South Korea, Singapore, Israel. . .

What a pig of a mudmover:


Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 02:28
by SpudmanWP
The F-15E is the core of the F-15I, F-15K, F-15SG, F-15S, F-15SA, F-15QA, etc.

In all of these instances, the F-15 is the most advanced A2A fighter in their force with the possible exception of the Saudi Eurofighters.

The are multirole fighters with a strong A2A heritage, pure and simple.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 10:02
by optimist
Tiger05 wrote:
vilters wrote:- The Tornado mess.
- The Typhoon mess.
- The A-400 mess.
- Take ALL helicopters build after the 80's. ALL of them......

Ya, ya, ya, they all look good on paper, but when you dig a bit below the surface?
Nobody is satisfied.

Oh, did I mention the helicopter mess? Now , "that's what I call a monster fuck-up


Nice exaggeration. You make the classic error of mistaking a program's troubled development for the end product. Were the Typhoon and A400 programs mismanaged? Absolutely. Does that mean they are underperforming junks that failed to live to their promises? No. Most F-35 critics make the same mistake btw.

"Nobody is satisfied". Really? :roll: That is a laughable statement. Especially regarding the helicopters since Airbus Helicopters is a global leader in terms of market share. I guess they must do something right after all. :lmao:

And btw, what is wrong with the Tornado? Not to the first time i see you bashing the plane. I dont recall it having a troubled development or underperforming. It has now been 35 years since it entered service and it is still going strong today so what is the issue here? Please do tell us.

Tell that to the aussies who are dumping the tiger and not doing a MLU, as it would be throwing good money after bad.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 16:16
by Prinz_Eugn
Tiger05 wrote:And btw, what is wrong with the Tornado? Not to the first time i see you bashing the plane. I dont recall it having a troubled development or underperforming. It has now been 35 years since it entered service and it is still going strong today so what is the issue here? Please do tell us.


Tornado ADV maybe? Delays with the Foxhunter radar, not initially having the capability to do mid-course updates for AMRAAMs which made them worse than the Skyflash they replaced, just being a really weird decision to turn a low-level strike aircraft into an interceptor. Basically Industrial Base: the Airplane.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 19:04
by talkitron
Prinz_Eugn wrote:Tornado ADV maybe? Delays with the Foxhunter radar, not initially having the capability to do mid-course updates for AMRAAMs which made them worse than the Skyflash they replaced, just being a really weird decision to turn a low-level strike aircraft into an interceptor. Basically Industrial Base: the Airplane.


If you are interested in issues with the Tornado F3/ADV, read David Gledhill's Tornado F3: A Navigator's Eye on Britain's Last Interceptor. He admits the plane was a disappointment compared to the F-15 and F-16, both in terms of its handling and its avionics. Also, the UK government did not lavish the F3/ADV with expensive upgrades until maybe the 1990s. Here is a one sentence quote:

"My personal view is that the F3 was a step forward but not the major leap which had been made with the latest generation US fighters which I had flown as a NATO Tactical Evaluator."

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 20:45
by ricnunes
optimist wrote:
Tiger05 wrote:Nice exaggeration. You make the classic error of mistaking a program's troubled development for the end product. Were the Typhoon and A400 programs mismanaged? Absolutely. Does that mean they are underperforming junks that failed to live to their promises? No. Most F-35 critics make the same mistake btw.

"Nobody is satisfied". Really? :roll: That is a laughable statement. Especially regarding the helicopters since Airbus Helicopters is a global leader in terms of market share. I guess they must do something right after all. :lmao:

And btw, what is wrong with the Tornado? Not to the first time i see you bashing the plane. I dont recall it having a troubled development or underperforming. It has now been 35 years since it entered service and it is still going strong today so what is the issue here? Please do tell us.


Tell that to the aussies who are dumping the tiger and not doing a MLU, as it would be throwing good money after bad.


optimist, you beat me at this! :wink:

But just to complement:
The Tiger program was not only messed up during "development" but it was/is also messed up big time during "concept".
Who in it's right and sane mind would develop two very different helicopter version (of the same baseline helicopter) where one is a version for Close Air Support (CAS) intended to be armed with rockets and Air-to-Air missiles while the other version is for Anti-Tank roles and meant to be equipped with Guided Anti-Tank missiles?? Why didn't they develop a single version for both CAS and Anti-Tank?? Well, only in Europe... :roll:
This concept is almost "as good" (sarcasm) as the Soviet/Russian Single-Seat gunship helicopter concept, a.k.a. the KA-50! :roll:

The only ones smart enough to put the roles of CAS and Anti-Tank into a single Tiger helicopter variant were actually the Australians and look how it turned up for them?? A Tiger variant (ARH) which is basically a different/new helicopter compared to the other existing variants of the Tiger helicopter and thus it became an orphan helicopter (Tiger) fleet :roll:

Oh, and last time I checked the A-400M wasn't doing any better!

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 20:56
by SpudmanWP
Shouldn't this thread be in the "Program & Politics" or "General" section?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 22:59
by vilters
The "bright" idea that got us all under the table from laughing, crying, tears flowing, enfin, you get the picture.

The A-400.
Where on earth did they "re-invent" the long abandoned idea that a "T" tail is/was a good idea for a supposedly all terrain cargo/support aircraft.

How, somewhere in their deepest darkest minds could they forget that a "T" tail is and never will be a good idea for a military "all terrain" aircraft because structural fatigue will shorten A/C life drastically.

A "T" tail on a C-5, OK.
A "T" tail on a C-17, OK. They are never supposed to land in the dirt anyway.

But on a cargo A/C that is "supposed" to compete with a C-130? Only twisted minds can come up with pfffft a "T" tail. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 23:03
by vilters
Oh, and the helicopters?

Grounded in Australia and many other countries.

Twisted versions, just to increase costs and reduce sales. Who invents those things?

That newer thing??? Euh, N-90 or something?
Well, they are so overweight they might as well be build from concrete, and that wiring... :devil:
Is there wiring or are the electrons just flowing around in good luck.

And again, so many versions that there is ABSOLUTELY no sensible standard to be found. Result? Increasing costs.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 23:11
by vilters
Ach, I forgot the Tornado.

Whaw , what a wonderful peace time flying club machine.

The first day in battle, they had to call the Bucaneer out of retirement to laser for them. Good Job guys. :P Got at least a medal for that one huh? :P

Oeps. . . . . . . . . . . . Somebody forgot some details...
Or?
The cost ran so out of control that, well, who is ever gonna laser anyway.. We"ll get away with it. :roll:
Until they had to go to battle. :bang: :devil: :bang:

Also : The Tornado was build for???? A mission that never came??
Then we got stuck with the thing so lets convert it to the ADF version.
Ja-ja-ja, my grandpa can chase cows with a leaveblower too.

Use the right tool for the Job.

The Tornado was a compromise between many countries desires, and politically correct as we are, everybody got something, but the sum was never really outstanding at anything else but to go low and fast. Something NOBODY actually needed.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 23:13
by ricnunes
vilters wrote:The "bright" idea that got us all under the table from laughing, crying, tears flowing, enfin, you get the picture.

The A-400.
Where on earth did they "re-invent" the long abandoned idea that a "T" tail is/was a good idea for a supposedly all terrain cargo/support aircraft.

How, somewhere in their deepest darkest minds could they forget that a "T" tail is and never will be a good idea for a military "all terrain" aircraft because structural fatigue will shorten A/C life drastically.

A "T" tail on a C-5, OK.
A "T" tail on a C-17, OK. They are never supposed to land in the dirt anyway.

But on a cargo A/C that is "supposed" to compete with a C-130? Only twisted minds can come up with pfffft a "T" tail. :bang: :bang: :bang:


What you say about the "T" tail makes sense.
Another manufacturer doing the same mistake is Embraer with its KC-390.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 23:19
by ricnunes
vilters wrote:Ach, I forgot the Tornado.

Whaw , what a wonderful peace time flying club machine.

The first day in battle, they had to call the Bucaneer out of retirement to laser for them. Good Job guys. :P Got at least a medal for that one huh? :P


Yup!
And wasn't also the Tornado the combat aircraft that suffered the highest number of loses to enemy (Iraqi) air defences during Desert Storm 1991?

They (Tornados) only stop suffering high loses when they changed the tactics from low-level ("nap-pf-the-earth") attacks from high altitude attacks with LGBs (designated by the Buccaneers) which basically eliminated the purpose and concept which the Tornado was designed around! :roll:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 23:22
by vilters
The problem these modern days is that everybody is so focused on fuel consumption that structural long time integrity goes way down the priority list.

Do with an A-400 what you can do with a C-130, (all terrain cargo), and structure life goes bananas.

Inspection and maintenance costs will go through the roof with those "T" tails.
We still can not believe it when we see one.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jul 2017, 23:24
by vilters
@ ricnunes

Completely correct. :P Oef, I am not the only one paying attention in aviation history. :P

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 00:27
by neptune
....IMHO, one concern is the ongoing interest in Germany and France co-developing their own 5th gen. which will likely take a huge sum of money and time (generating jobs) and probably, ultimately will not interface with the NATO F-35 fleet.
I am all for competition but the distraction from adding that financial contribution to the advancement of the established F-35 base is disheartening. Even, if they took Israel's position and insisted on their avionics?/ engine?/ tires?, whatever?; as long as it supported the basic F-35 that could be produced in Italy??

....locally, we call these "lookee Louie's", with no intent to buy!
:)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 01:32
by ricnunes
neptune wrote:....IMHO, one concern is the ongoing interest in Germany and France co-developing their own 5th gen. which will likely take a huge sum of money and time (generating jobs) and probably, ultimately will not interface with the NATO F-35 fleet.


I don't think that this situation will be of any concern to anyone, specially of any concern to the F-35 program.
For starters when France and Germany finally manage to field a fighter aircraft with capabilities that remotely resembles the F-35 capabilities, the F-35 successor (whatever that might be) is already being developed or even nearing the end of its development and thus close to starting to being fielded or who knows maybe already reached IOC.
Then, I believe that before this unexpected news of "Germany being supposedly interested in the F-35" (at least unexpected to me) that nobody or hardly anyone would believe that both Germany and specially France would ever buy the F-35 (due to some nationalistic pride coupled protectionism of their national aerospace industry). What will happen is that France and Germany will probably have their orphan and somehow outdated fleet of homemade future fighter aircraft while the rest of Europe will go with the F-35.
Being too pride or too much protective has its consequences and these will be the consequences for both France and Germany which for them will probably be acceptable because of the reasons already pointed out by some here (Jobs, R&D, etc...) but also because France doesn't like to work closely with NATO and Germany doesn't seem to work with NATO in terms of airpower, at least anymore (and the only time it did was during Cold War to protect their own "Fatherland").

If there's someone who should be concerned about this decision, those would be the French and German taxpayers but again their "nationalistic pride" would prevent them of such concerns.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 20:17
by botsing
vilters wrote:The "bright" idea that got us all under the table from laughing, crying, tears flowing, enfin, you get the picture.

The A-400.
Where on earth did they "re-invent" the long abandoned idea that a "T" tail is/was a good idea for a supposedly all terrain cargo/support aircraft.

How, somewhere in their deepest darkest minds could they forget that a "T" tail is and never will be a good idea for a military "all terrain" aircraft because structural fatigue will shorten A/C life drastically.

A "T" tail on a C-5, OK.
A "T" tail on a C-17, OK. They are never supposed to land in the dirt anyway.

But on a cargo A/C that is "supposed" to compete with a C-130? Only twisted minds can come up with pfffft a "T" tail.

Every design is a compromise.

The A400 has shoulder wings so the engines are higher above the ground to make them less likely to catch FOD. Maybe the airstreams from this shoulder wing makes a strengthened T-tail more favored?

In the past with the C-130 there were several incidents where the tail was damaged during loading/unloading. Having the horizontal tail higher might prevent this kind of damage and maybe makes the loading/unloading a bit faster due to less regulations?

These are just hypothetical examples that show us that without knowing the details it makes no sense to simply dismiss a design choice as "coming from a twisted mind".

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 14:10
by XanderCrews
vilters wrote:A "T" tail on a C-17, OK. They are never supposed to land in the dirt anyway.
:



Really?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2pSSdjgQ5Lc/maxresdefault.jpg

Because one of their first requirements was operating from small and improvised strips.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 19:01
by ricnunes
XanderCrews wrote:
vilters wrote:A "T" tail on a C-17, OK. They are never supposed to land in the dirt anyway.
:



Really?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2pSSdjgQ5Lc/maxresdefault.jpg

Because one of their first requirements was operating from small and improvised strips.


Yes indeed the C-17 can technically operate on the same/similar environments as even the C-130.
However it doesn't seem that the C-17 usually operates in such environments or resuming operations on such environments (small and improvised strips) are more of an exception than a rule when it comes to the C-17.

However I must point out that the C-17 (which in my opinion is the world's most impressive airlifter) is a Strategical Airlifter so low fuel consumption with very high altitude are huge and vital requirements for such an aircraft.

Also in my opinion is that one the things that's wrong with the A-400M is that this aircraft is a "Transvestite" between a Strategical and a Tactical Airlifter. With it's maximum 40 tons of payload/cargo it can't carry a Main Battle Tank (MBT) like the C-17 or C-5 can while it doesn't seem to be rugged enough to operate in environments where the C-130 can and usually operates in.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 19:52
by spazsinbad

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 22:39
by XanderCrews
ricnunes wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
vilters wrote:A "T" tail on a C-17, OK. They are never supposed to land in the dirt anyway.
:



Really?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2pSSdjgQ5Lc/maxresdefault.jpg

Because one of their first requirements was operating from small and improvised strips.


Yes indeed the C-17 can technically operate on the same/similar environments as even the C-130.
However it doesn't seem that the C-17 usually operates in such environments or resuming operations on such environments (small and improvised strips) are more of an exception than a rule when it comes to the C-17.

.



What's the comparison for rough/short landing vs conventional on a400 vs c-17??

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 11:28
by ricnunes
XanderCrews wrote:What's the comparison for rough/short landing vs conventional on a400 vs c-17??


Basically and from I could gather they (C-17 and A-400M) have the same or similar capabilities in terms of rough/short landings.

However the C-17 is an extremely useful (and excellent) Strategical Airlifter while the A-400M is (in my opinion) very limited in the Strategical Airlifter role. For example and while both C-17 and A-400M have similar rough/short landing capability the C-17 can carry more than 80 tons of cargo (it can carry a heavy MBT like the M-1 Abrams or Leopard 2) while the A-400M can only carry 40 tons (it can not carry MBTs or other very heavy hardware).

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 14:03
by vilters
A carefully prepared sand beach to do a test-flight can hardly be called rough terrain.

The A-400 is a wannabe C-17 but fails.
It is also a wannabe C-130 but fails again.

I also wanna see the servicability of that fleet and the maintenance cost in 10-20 years from now.
Most will (or are already regretting) that they did not buy C-130.

The A-400 is just a "wanted to be" aircraft.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 14:44
by spazsinbad
'vilters' said: "carefully prepared sand beach to do a test-flight can hardly be called rough terrain": where did you get this information? The flights were tests so I'll guess it was what it was.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 15:25
by ricnunes
Independently of that will be the actual A-400M fleet availability and maintenance cost in 10-20 years from now and whether or not the A-400M is capable of sustained rough terrain operations, I fully agree with the following that vilters have said (which he said better and in a more resumed way than I could):

vilters wrote:The A-400 is a wannabe C-17 but fails.
It is also a wannabe C-130 but fails again.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 15:26
by Prinz_Eugn
ricnunes wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
vilters wrote:A "T" tail on a C-17, OK. They are never supposed to land in the dirt anyway.
:



Really?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2pSSdjgQ5Lc/maxresdefault.jpg

Because one of their first requirements was operating from small and improvised strips.


Yes indeed the C-17 can technically operate on the same/similar environments as even the C-130.
However it doesn't seem that the C-17 usually operates in such environments or resuming operations on such environments (small and improvised strips) are more of an exception than a rule when it comes to the C-17.


I don't know about that, my unscientific survey of YouTube (search "C-17 dirt") seems to indicate using improvised strips is something they train for and actually do reasonably often, which is pretty impressive.

And yeah, the A400M always seemed like a bizarre compromise aircraft, the in-between that nobody really asked for.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 15:40
by ricnunes
Prinz_Eugn wrote:I don't know about that, my unscientific survey of YouTube (search "C-17 dirt") seems to indicate using improvised strips is something they train for and actually do reasonably often, which is pretty impressive.


Do I think or believe that the C-17 aircrews train "reasonably often" on improvised/rough airstrips?
- Yes, absolutely.
Do I think or believe that the C-17 aircrews operate "reasonably often" (operationally) on improvised/rough airstrips?
- No, I don't think so. But I could be wrong thou...

Prinz_Eugn wrote:And yeah, the A400M always seemed like a bizarre compromise aircraft, the in-between that nobody really asked for.


Yeap, "amen" to that.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 16:01
by sferrin
C-17s have flown to Antarctica and landed on snow runways. Re: the A400, they should have just built the YC-14. Better than the A400 in almost every regard. (Though if we'd built that we might not have the C-17 so. . . :shrug: )

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2017, 18:44
by durahawk
ricnunes wrote:
If there's someone who should be concerned about this decision, those would be the French and German taxpayers but again their "nationalistic pride" would prevent them of such concerns.


The thing about that German "nationalistic pride" is that it doesn't seem to extend to the military itself. The pathetic level of funding and attention it is given sure makes it seem like many Germans would rather forget they have a military, let alone maintain an effective fighting force.

I think a German F-35 could represent a signal to its allies that intends to turn a corner and get serious on defense, but I suspect industrial base protection and offset considerations will ultimately win the day. I don't think we will ever be seeing F-35's in Luftwaffe livery.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2017, 11:44
by ricnunes
durahawk wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
If there's someone who should be concerned about this decision, those would be the French and German taxpayers but again their "nationalistic pride" would prevent them of such concerns.


The thing about that German "nationalistic pride" is that it doesn't seem to extend to the military itself. The pathetic level of funding and attention it is given sure makes it seem like many Germans would rather forget they have a military, let alone maintain an effective fighting force.


Yes, you're absolutely right.
The German "nationalistic pride" that I mentioned about was related with their (German) Industrial capability and the perception of what such Industrial capability can manufacture (including military equipment) and not so much about their (German) Military capability itself.


durahawk wrote:...but I suspect industrial base protection and offset considerations will ultimately win the day. I don't think we will ever be seeing F-35's in Luftwaffe livery.


To be honest this is the part that I don't get or that I "don't buy".
I'm sure that if Germany would select the F-35 that the industrial offsets for the German industry would certainly be very good and probably in level with those of that proposed future Franco-German fighter aircraft - Just look at the Japanese case for example - And here I'm strictly speaking of Industrial and Technological Benefits alone.
If we add the "Economics dimension" then the difference/advantage of what the German industry would gain versus the money that Germany would need to invest if Germany decided to buy the F-35 would be far more advantageous than going this future Franco-German fighter aircraft "route".

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2017, 12:08
by citanon
I was joking in another thread that Germany will probably end up renting F35s by the flight hour from neighbors like Austria. With this resurgent post-brexit European defense force that German politicians fantasize about, that might not end up far from the truth.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2017, 19:52
by neptune
citanon wrote:I was joking in another thread that Germany will probably end up renting F35s by the flight hour from neighbors like Austria. With this resurgent post-brexit European defense force that German politicians fantasize about, that might not end up far from the truth.


...with Brexit, the Germans will not have to look over their shoulders at the Brits when advancing their interests in the EU; especially with the potential offsets (Euros in the pocket) that the F-35 selection will bring them, as others have said about Japan. The French will be left holding the bag, as usual; left behind (sad).
:)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 06:32
by neptune
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 7a474.html

Germany asks for Boeing fighter data as weighs order options

By Andrea Shalal
Reuters


BERLIN •
Germany has asked the U.S. military for classified data on two Boeing fighter jets as it looks to replace its aging (85) Tornado warplanes, giving a potential boost to the U.S. company locked in a trade dispute with Canada and Britain. A letter sent by the German defense ministry's planning division, reviewed by Reuters, said it had identified Boeing's F-15 and F/A-18E/F fighters as potential candidates to replace the Tornado jets, which entered service in 1981. Both fighters are made in St. Louis. A classified briefing is expected to take place in mid-November, following a similar briefing provided by U.S. officials about the Lockheed Martin Corp. F-35 fighter jet in July.

The ministry has said it is also seeking information from European aerospace giant Airbus, which builds the Eurofighter Typhoon along with Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Leonardo. The development is a boost for Boeing at a time when it is under fire from Canada and Britain after its complaint prompted the United States to impose a preliminary 220-percent duty on CSeries jets built by Bombardier. Boeing said it was working with the U.S. government to provide the information that Germany had requested. Germany, due to decide in mid-2018 about how to replace the (85) Tornado planes, announced plans in July to build a European fighter jet together with France. But the new jet is unlikely to be available by 2025, when Germany's fleet of Tornado fighters are slated to start going out of service. Sources familiar with the process said Germany was pursuing a two-pronged approach under which it would buy an existing fighter to replace the Tornado, while working with France on a new European jet to replace its Eurofighters at a later point. Analysts said the Tornado replacement order could be worth tens of billions of dollars, although Germany is still reviewing how many jets to buy and at what pace. The letter said a formal request for information about the pricing and availability of all three U.S. fighter jets was being compiled and would be issued by the end of the month.

Boeing under fire

Britain told Boeing this week that future defense contracts could be in jeopardy because of its trade dispute with Canada's Bombardier, noting that U.S. tariffs would put up to 4,200 jobs at risk at a plant in the British province of Northern Ireland that makes the CSeries jet's carbon wings. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has also said he will not go ahead with plans to buy 18 Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet jets unless the dispute is dropped. Any move by Germany to buy a U.S. warplane could run into political resistance from strong labor unions and Airbus, which has also raised concerns about the ministry's plans to choose between two U.S. helicopters for its heavy lift program. Britain, the Netherlands, Norway, Turkey and Italy — key NATO allies of Germany — are already buying the F-35 fighter jet to replace their current aircraft, and other European countries such as Switzerland, Belgium and Finland are also looking at purchasing the fifth-generation warplane at time when tensions with Russia are running high. Military sources say buying a U.S. jet could make sense for Germany given technical challenges with the Eurofighter.
:)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2017, 22:16
by madrat
The German operate neutered fighters due to treaty limitations. Seems silly if they bought F-15's when they could just as easily opted for keeping Tornado in service. Which one do you want flying nap of the earth in Germany's terrain? Only sentimental types would insist F-15.

I also think if Germany had decided to go a medium role they would have opted for a single EF200-powered design resembling the X-31 project they co-opted, rather than going Mirage, Gripen, or F-16. I'm pretty sure they floated all sorts of options before settling on Typhoon as good enough to replace everything.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 03:31
by neptune
http://www.iiss.org/en/militarybalanceb ... erlin-ecf0

Dogfight over Berlin: Germany’s Tornado replacement aspirations


By Douglas Barrie, Senior Fellow for Military Aerospace
Date: 21 December 2017

Germany’s selection of a future combat aircraft for the air force may not be a binary choice. Senior Luftwaffe officials and the German defence ministry appear at loggerheads over whether a European or US combat aircraft should replace the air force’s Tornado, with the former preferring the F-35 Lightning II and the latter in favor of the Typhoon. However, some of them could perhaps be asking the wrong question.

Rather than asking what aircraft type is needed, greater clarity may be achieved by asking what roles the aircraft will be required to carry out. In Luftwaffe service, the Tornado provides the ability to deliver both conventional and nuclear payloads. The latter role is part of NATO’s dual-capable aircraft capability, with the Tornado equipped to carry the B61 gravity bomb. If Germany intends to continue to fulfill this mission, whichever type is selected to replace the Tornado will also need to be able to meet this role.

The other combat aircraft in the Luftwaffe’s fleet, the Eurofighter Typhoon, is presently not ‘wired’ to carry nuclear weapons. There was some consideration given to this in the early days of the development program, but was not pursued. Introducing a nuclear-assurance and -release system for Typhoon is possible, but at a cost. European industrialists suggest prices ranging from €300–500 million, while there is the likelihood that the US would require very detailed access to the aircraft’s design and systems. Furthermore, officials estimate that the necessary certification process would take upwards of seven years. Even if certification were to start straightaway, this makes it challenging to meet the Luftwaffe’s timeline, since it wants to begin replacing its Tornados in 2025, with the fleet to be fully withdrawn likely by 2030.

Germany’s dual-capable Tornado aircraft are part of NATO’s nuclear-deterrence strategy; for this to be effective, it also has to be credible. If the weapon to be delivered remains a nuclear free-fall bomb, the challenge of hitting a target through airspace defended by capable combat aircraft and advanced surface-to-air missiles is considerable. In other words, where long-range stand-off strike is not an option, a low-observable combat aircraft offers the best chance of at least reaching the target.

However, one possible solution could be that the nuclear and conventional roles now both met by the Tornado could be split between a relatively small F-35 fleet and a larger Typhoon fleet, thereby reconciling Luftwaffe and German defense-ministry aspirations. The former aircraft would meet the nuclear-delivery requirement with the B61-12 bomb and provide a low-observable platform capable of conventional weapons delivery, while a proportion of the air-to-surface missions now addressed by the Tornado could be migrated to the Typhoon.

Nevertheless, the Luftwaffe is presently not only working on how to replace the Tornado, but in the longer term, also the Typhoon. Under its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) work, it had initially looked to introduce a new combat aircraft into service from 2035, with the emphasis on the air-to-surface role, as a Tornado replacement. As thinking has developed during the course of 2017, and the F-35 has found increasing favor, Germany’s longer-term combat-aircraft requirement has placed greater emphasis on the air-to-air role for the Typhoon’s successor. The notional entry into service date has also moved to 2045.

The FCAS study work is now being carried out in collaboration with France. Moving back the entry into service date aligns more closely with France’s requirement for a Rafale successor, while also providing a more palatable gap between the cost of the possible introduction of the F-35 and the acquisition of a new fighter aircraft.
:)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 04:00
by madrat
Let them eat <del>cake</del> Rafale

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 04:10
by Corsair1963
neptune wrote:http://www.iiss.org/en/militarybalanceblog/blogsections/2017-edcc/december-d13d/dogfight-over-berlin-ecf0

Dogfight over Berlin: Germany’s Tornado replacement aspirations


By Douglas Barrie, Senior Fellow for Military Aerospace
Date: 21 December 2017

Germany’s selection of a future combat aircraft for the air force may not be a binary choice. Senior Luftwaffe officials and the German defence ministry appear at loggerheads over whether a European or US combat aircraft should replace the air force’s Tornado, with the former preferring the F-35 Lightning II and the latter in favor of the Typhoon. However, some of them could perhaps be asking the wrong question.

Rather than asking what aircraft type is needed, greater clarity may be achieved by asking what roles the aircraft will be required to carry out. In Luftwaffe service, the Tornado provides the ability to deliver both conventional and nuclear payloads. The latter role is part of NATO’s dual-capable aircraft capability, with the Tornado equipped to carry the B61 gravity bomb. If Germany intends to continue to fulfill this mission, whichever type is selected to replace the Tornado will also need to be able to meet this role.

The other combat aircraft in the Luftwaffe’s fleet, the Eurofighter Typhoon, is presently not ‘wired’ to carry nuclear weapons. There was some consideration given to this in the early days of the development program, but was not pursued. Introducing a nuclear-assurance and -release system for Typhoon is possible, but at a cost. European industrialists suggest prices ranging from €300–500 million, while there is the likelihood that the US would require very detailed access to the aircraft’s design and systems. Furthermore, officials estimate that the necessary certification process would take upwards of seven years. Even if certification were to start straightaway, this makes it challenging to meet the Luftwaffe’s timeline, since it wants to begin replacing its Tornados in 2025, with the fleet to be fully withdrawn likely by 2030.

Germany’s dual-capable Tornado aircraft are part of NATO’s nuclear-deterrence strategy; for this to be effective, it also has to be credible. If the weapon to be delivered remains a nuclear free-fall bomb, the challenge of hitting a target through airspace defended by capable combat aircraft and advanced surface-to-air missiles is considerable. In other words, where long-range stand-off strike is not an option, a low-observable combat aircraft offers the best chance of at least reaching the target.

However, one possible solution could be that the nuclear and conventional roles now both met by the Tornado could be split between a relatively small F-35 fleet and a larger Typhoon fleet, thereby reconciling Luftwaffe and German defense-ministry aspirations. The former aircraft would meet the nuclear-delivery requirement with the B61-12 bomb and provide a low-observable platform capable of conventional weapons delivery, while a proportion of the air-to-surface missions now addressed by the Tornado could be migrated to the Typhoon.

Nevertheless, the Luftwaffe is presently not only working on how to replace the Tornado, but in the longer term, also the Typhoon. Under its Future Combat Air System (FCAS) work, it had initially looked to introduce a new combat aircraft into service from 2035, with the emphasis on the air-to-surface role, as a Tornado replacement. As thinking has developed during the course of 2017, and the F-35 has found increasing favor, Germany’s longer-term combat-aircraft requirement has placed greater emphasis on the air-to-air role for the Typhoon’s successor. The notional entry into service date has also moved to 2045.

The FCAS study work is now being carried out in collaboration with France. Moving back the entry into service date aligns more closely with France’s requirement for a Rafale successor, while also providing a more palatable gap between the cost of the possible introduction of the F-35 and the acquisition of a new fighter aircraft.
:)


Honestly, simple fact is the Typhoon will be nearly obsolete by 2030. (if not before) So, to acquire more would be a complete waste of time and resources. A far better plan would be to acquire a modest number of F-35A's in the short-term to replace the Tornado's. While, jointly developing a future 6th Generation Fighter with France long-term.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 08:35
by mas
However, one possible solution could be that the nuclear and conventional roles now both met by the Tornado could be split between a relatively small F-35 fleet and a larger Typhoon fleet, thereby reconciling Luftwaffe and German defense-ministry aspirations. The former aircraft would meet the nuclear-delivery requirement with the B61-12 bomb and provide a low-observable platform capable of conventional weapons delivery, while a proportion of the air-to-surface missions now addressed by the Tornado could be migrated to the Typhoon


Sounds like the best plan. Say buy about 40-60 F-35A to become your premier strike aircraft. Put CFTs and AESA on your Tranche 2/3 Typhoons to act as their non-stealthy but heavy load carrying rear backup. Finally keep your Tranche 1s as your hot-rod interceptors, job done ! Then the Luftwaffe would be set until the FCAS is ready.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 09:06
by Corsair1963
mas wrote:
However, one possible solution could be that the nuclear and conventional roles now both met by the Tornado could be split between a relatively small F-35 fleet and a larger Typhoon fleet, thereby reconciling Luftwaffe and German defense-ministry aspirations. The former aircraft would meet the nuclear-delivery requirement with the B61-12 bomb and provide a low-observable platform capable of conventional weapons delivery, while a proportion of the air-to-surface missions now addressed by the Tornado could be migrated to the Typhoon


Sounds like the best plan. Say buy about 40-60 F-35A to become your premier strike aircraft. Put CFTs and AESA on your Tranche 2/3 Typhoons to act as their non-stealthy but heavy load carrying rear backup. Finally keep your Tranche 1s as your hot-rod interceptors, job done ! Then the Luftwaffe would be set until the FCAS is ready.



Plus, the 40-60 F-35's would help Germany get closer to the 2% of GDP on Defense Spending. Which, would make NATO and the US (i.e. Trump) happy! :wink:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 10:54
by mas
More importantly it will help alleviate the US-German trade imbalance that Trump does not like having with any nation.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:29
by loke
Since it seems they have decided to develop their own 5. gen fighter with France it would probably be cheaper to skip the F-35 alltogether and make do without nuclear bombs until the new 5. gen fighter is ready.

Some of the same thinking that was behind the UK's decision to drop carrier aviation for several years until the F-35B is ready (and the new carriers of course).

To NATO a few F-35 more or less would not make a big difference. How many F-35 will NATO countries have by 2030?

There will also be non-NATO countries that are nevertheless close allies of NATO countries that will also have quite significant numbers of F-35; in Europe there will be Finland (perhaps 64 F-35, one of the largest F-35 operators in Europe!?) and of course in Asia-pacific there will be Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, etc., in the ME of course Israel will have a huge F-35 fleet in 2030...

Germany could build a few extra subs instead, small subs are currently in high demand, and few of them exist in NATO!

Another wet dream is that European NATO countries pull their act together and build a 5. gen tank, the Leo2 is becoming a joke.

So much to do and so little money to spend...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 00:11
by ricnunes
loke wrote:... the Leo2 is becoming a joke.


Why?? May I ask? :-?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 01:22
by XanderCrews
SpudmanWP wrote:
Why even compare the Typhoon to the F-15E? One was conceived as a pure interceptor with A2G capabilities added later as an afterthought while the other is a mud-mover. Apples and oranges really.


Calling the F-15E a "mud-mover" is like calling the F-11 and dogfighter.


Pretty sure the F-15 was conceived with not a pound for air to ground and got the A2G as an afterthought as well. It's just a split of variant e vs C Vs a split in capability

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 12:50
by loke
ricnunes wrote:
loke wrote:... the Leo2 is becoming a joke.


Why?? May I ask? :-?

Nothing wrong with it, just that it's getting rather old.

A next generation tank is needed. Something with stealth features. A lot has happened in material science the last few years, so one could in the near future build something that could be quite revolutionary. One may also consider to replace the diesel engine with a hydrogen fuel cell, for audio stealth, but also for easy access to massive amounts of electricity to feed the laser and potentially a rail gun (to replace the old gun systems). It should also have space for drones that can be released and recovered. It should be fully networked with LPI datalinks. Etc, etc.

Leo is becoming outdated, just like the F-16 is becoming outdated.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 15:27
by steve2267
loke wrote:A next generation tank is needed. Something with stealth features. A lot has happened in material science the last few years, so one could in the near future build something that could be quite revolutionary. One may also consider to replace the diesel engine with a hydrogen fuel cell, for audio stealth, but also for easy access to massive amounts of electricity to feed the laser and potentially a rail gun (to replace the old gun systems). It should also have space for drones that can be released and recovered. It should be fully networked with LPI datalinks. Etc, etc.

Leo is becoming outdated, just like the F-16 is becoming outdated.


Technology for technology's sake rarely works out well. Rather it usually ends up in very expensive programs that do not produce a useful product that then end up getting canceled.

Some of the things you mention, e.g. audio stealth, or drones, are worthwhile goals or features that could have a real tactical impact on a battlespace. Better, IMO, to implement some spiral, technology development programs to develop the technology first. Once the technology reaches a certain maturity level, then consider a product development program to develop a real product; but FIRST define realistic requirements your new gizmo must reach or achieve.

This is how the propulsion system on the F-35 was created. Perhaps if the sensor fusion and HMDS had been developed similarly the F-35 would have come on line much faster and at a far lower cost. (Shoulda coulda woulda - hindsight is usually 20-20.)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 15:46
by mtrman
loke wrote:....

To NATO a few F-35 more or less would not make a big difference. How many F-35 will NATO countries have by 2030?

There will also be non-NATO countries that are nevertheless close allies of NATO countries that will also have quite significant numbers of F-35; in Europe there will be Finland (perhaps 64 F-35, one of the largest F-35 operators in Europe!?) and of course in Asia-pacific there will be Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, etc., in the ME of course Israel will have a huge F-35 fleet in 2030...

...



@loke, why don't you count possible 100+ F-35s of Turkey?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 16:00
by mas
mtrman, the Turkmen have been very naughty in Syria droning the Russian Base. Is Erdogan going to run back to the US and play the NATO card again against an angry Putin ? Erdogan makes Trump look calm and collected ;).

https://www.rt.com/news/415454-drone-at ... ia-turkey/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 18:01
by ricnunes
loke wrote:Nothing wrong with it, just that it's getting rather old.


And what's better than the Leopard 2 either currently fielded or under development??

I would say that currently the top 3 MBTs in the world are precisely the Leopard 2, the M1 Abrams and the Challenger 2 (and not by any particular order).

The French Leclerc is a 50 ton class MBT while all the 3 above (including the Leo2) are 60 ton class tanks so it likely not so well protected (armour wise).
The Israeli Merkava IV is a good contender but in the end this is a different beast - it can carry 4 soldiers plus the usual crew - so it's a bit of a mixture of a MBT with very limited IFV capabilities.

The Leopard 2A6 has the best gun of all MBTs, namely compared to all of the above.

The only new MBT that's being currently under development (that I know of) is the Russian Armata but at a 40 ton class, I have my reservations how it would fare against all the MBTs above, specially in terms or protection (armour).
Anyway, the Armata was not designed to be the best MBT but instead to be a modular common design which can be used as a "MBT", APC, IFV or if I'm not mistaken as a Mobile Howitzer.

The fact is that there isn't anything which is superior (or clearly superior) to the Leopard 2 either fielded, in development or planned in the foreseeable future.

loke wrote:A next generation tank is needed.


Again why? The Leopard 2 fits and surpasses the requirements needed to carry out all and every role currently needed and required for a MBT.
I can't see anything to be developed with current and near future technology that could match the survivability and the mobility of a MBT like the Leopard 2, M1 Abrams or Challenger 2.

And by the way, the Leopard2 is being constantly updated, with the latest variant being the Leopard 2A7 which seems to have some considerably technological advances (namely sensor and communications wise).

loke wrote:Something with stealth features.


Initially I would ask why but here I prefer to ask: How?


loke wrote:One may also consider to replace the diesel engine with a hydrogen fuel cell, for audio stealth,


Here I ask which one "explodes better" if hit by an incoming shell or missile? My bet is on the hydrogen fuel cell :wink:

(again hydrogen fuel cells may "grant" a lower survivability than a Diesel engine for example when hit by enemy fire)

loke wrote:but also for easy access to massive amounts of electricity to feed the laser and potentially a rail gun (to replace the old gun systems).


Don't get me wrong but this seems a bit similar as saying that we should replace the current assault rifles with Laser or Plasma Rifles.
I believe that this will be something that will eventually happen but just not in the foreseeable future.

loke wrote:It should also have space for drones that can be released and recovered. It should be fully networked with LPI datalinks. Etc, etc.


I don't see any reason why you couldn't fit such technologies in the Leopard 2 or in any other MBTs that I mentioned above.


loke wrote:Leo is becoming outdated, just like the F-16 is becoming outdated.


Just because something was designed decades ago doesn't mean that this same something is obsolete and needs replacement. For example is the M-16 or M-4 Assault Rifles becoming outdated? I don't think so!

This just means that nothing newer and better has come.
Not all technologies evolves at the same pace. Just because current fighter aircraft are becoming obsolete doesn't mean that current MBTs (or Assault Rifles) are obsolete as well.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 19:06
by SpudmanWP
Speaking as an M1 tanker, the tracks make more noise than my turbine engine. The turbo diesel on my old M60A3 was MUCH louder than my tracks however.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 19:23
by steve2267
SpudmanWP wrote:Speaking as an M1 tanker, the tracks make more noise than my turbine engine. The turbo diesel on my old M60A3 was MUCH louder than my tracks however.


Wasn't whispering death one of the nicknames given the M1?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 19:33
by ricnunes
SpudmanWP wrote:Speaking as an M1 tanker, the tracks make more noise than my turbine engine. The turbo diesel on my old M60A3 was MUCH louder than my tracks however.


Cool!
By the way Tanks are among my favourite military equipment alongside with fighter aircraft and what you mentioned is very interesting indeed, which prompts me to ask you the following question:
- There are Rubber Pads that can be fitted to the tracks, this are mostly used when traveling by road (so as not to damage to road pavement), is this correct? And also about Rubber Pads, do or can they somehow reduce the track noise that you mentioned?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 20:15
by SpudmanWP
The tracks always had the rubber pads and they (M60 but not M1 pads) can be replaced when damaged.

Most of the track noise came from the metal on metal grinding between the drive/idle gears and from all of the track retention pins(4)/bolts(6 & 9)/connectors(7, 10, & 11).

This is a breakdown of the M1 (T156) track shoe assembly

Image

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 20:23
by ricnunes
Thanks Spudman :thumb:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 00:52
by popcorn
Didn't they develop a super quiet hybrid electric drive for Crusader?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 01:17
by sferrin
ricnunes wrote:
loke wrote:Nothing wrong with it, just that it's getting rather old.


And what's better than the Leopard 2 either currently fielded or under development??

I would say that currently the top 3 MBTs in the world are precisely the Leopard 2, the M1 Abrams and the Challenger 2 (and not by any particular order).

The French Leclerc is a 50 ton class MBT while all the 3 above (including the Leo2) are 60 ton class tanks so it likely not so well protected (armour wise).
The Israeli Merkava IV is a good contender but in the end this is a different beast - it can carry 4 soldiers plus the usual crew - so it's a bit of a mixture of a MBT with very limited IFV capabilities.

The Leopard 2A6 has the best gun of all MBTs, namely compared to all of the above.


But the Abrams has the best ammo. If they could fire the M829A3 through an L55. . .

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 01:19
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:Speaking as an M1 tanker, the tracks make more noise than my turbine engine. The turbo diesel on my old M60A3 was MUCH louder than my tracks however.


My all time favorite Abrams vid:

:lmao:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 02:13
by count_to_10
sferrin wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Speaking as an M1 tanker, the tracks make more noise than my turbine engine. The turbo diesel on my old M60A3 was MUCH louder than my tracks however.


My all time favorite Abrams vid :lmao:

You know, I don’t think the mud was the important part; it was more th at it was stuck in a rut.

Anyway, I look at the tank issue this way: when was the last “generation” of long haul trucks? Has anything fundamental changed in the last three decades, or has it just been upgrading features on the same basic design?

MBTs are a mature technology, and about all you can do is switch up the weight class you are aiming for or tinker around the edges. If you plan to design a new one from the ground up, it better be because you really need a feature that can’t fit into the old one.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 05:00
by wrightwing
The M1A2 SEP3 is pretty much state of the art at the moment, and the SEP4 will be even more lethal/survivable.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 05:16
by steve2267
wrightwing wrote:The M1A2 SEP3 is pretty much state of the art at the moment, and the SEP4 will be even more lethal/survivable.


After googling M1A2 SEP3, I could find no mention of any sort of active anti-missile defense system similar to the Israeli Trophy system. Does SEPv3 include such a system? Or is one planned for SEPv4? Or...?

ETA: Found this story:
Missile Defense For Tanks: Raytheon Quick Kill Vs. Israeli Trophy
Sydney J. Freedberg Jr. on March 09, 2016 at 2:07 PM

WASHINGTON: After two decades of dithering and delay, the Army wants to give its armored vehicles the ability to shoot down incoming anti-tank missiles. What’s more, while the service will continue its own long-term, in-house research program, the Army is now willing to accept something “not invented here” so it can get an interim Active Protection System (APS) fielded in two years.

... blah blah blah < read it at the jump > ...

https://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/missile-defense-for-tanks-raytheon-quick-kill-vs-israeli-trophy/


Sounds like the USArmy has been creaping forward on this technology at its usual glacial pace and they are hoping to field something this year.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 12:12
by ricnunes
sferrin wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
loke wrote:Nothing wrong with it, just that it's getting rather old.


And what's better than the Leopard 2 either currently fielded or under development??

I would say that currently the top 3 MBTs in the world are precisely the Leopard 2, the M1 Abrams and the Challenger 2 (and not by any particular order).

The French Leclerc is a 50 ton class MBT while all the 3 above (including the Leo2) are 60 ton class tanks so it likely not so well protected (armour wise).
The Israeli Merkava IV is a good contender but in the end this is a different beast - it can carry 4 soldiers plus the usual crew - so it's a bit of a mixture of a MBT with very limited IFV capabilities.

The Leopard 2A6 has the best gun of all MBTs, namely compared to all of the above.


But the Abrams has the best ammo. If they could fire the M829A3 through an L55. . .


I can't see any reason why the L55 (Leopard 2A6 gun) couldn't fire the M829A3 round. The L55 is just a long barrel version of the L44 gun which is the same gun found on the M1 Abrams or the Leopard 2A4 and 2A5.
I would say that the only reason why the Leopard 2 doesn't use the M829A3 is political - their users don't want to use Depleted Uranium (DU) rounds on their tanks.
But yes, I agree that the M829A3 is the best Anti-Tank/Penetrating round.

And please note that when I said that the 3 best tanks in the world are the "Leopard 2, the M1 Abrams and the Challenger 2", I didn't say this in any particular order. If one of you said that the latest version of the M1 Abrams is slightly better than the latest version of the Leopard 2, I likely wouldn't dispute that.
I would say that Leopard 2, the M1 Abrams and the Challenger 2 may have some advantages between each others but overall they are basically on the same/similar level.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 16:07
by hythelday
This isn't tank-net.com

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 09:46
by loke
mtrman wrote:
loke wrote:....

To NATO a few F-35 more or less would not make a big difference. How many F-35 will NATO countries have by 2030?

There will also be non-NATO countries that are nevertheless close allies of NATO countries that will also have quite significant numbers of F-35; in Europe there will be Finland (perhaps 64 F-35, one of the largest F-35 operators in Europe!?) and of course in Asia-pacific there will be Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Australia, etc., in the ME of course Israel will have a huge F-35 fleet in 2030...

...



@loke, why don't you count possible 100+ F-35s of Turkey?


What do you mean?

I referred to all NATO F-35 in one line, and then I mentioned some specific non-NATO F-35 countries that are close allies of NATO.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 09:57
by loke
ricnunes wrote:Just because something was designed decades ago doesn't mean that this same something is obsolete and needs replacement. For example is the M-16 or M-4 Assault Rifles becoming outdated? I don't think so!

This just means that nothing newer and better has come.
Not all technologies evolves at the same pace. Just because current fighter aircraft are becoming obsolete doesn't mean that current MBTs (or Assault Rifles) are obsolete as well.

This is not tank.net and I am definitely not an expert however I would just refer to recent developments in the ME.

Air superiority may not exist in the future while until recently it was taken for granted; even terrorists in the ME are able to build drones that can attack Russian airbases.

What do you think a real country with resources will be able to do in the future?

If you consider that already today technology for "self-driving" cars is becoming widely available, how many years do you think it will take before countries like Iran (not to mention Russia and China) will be capable of developing drones with simple sensors and a neural network on a chip trained to recognize tanks, F-35 and whatnot on the ground, and just fire away when they see something? Cheap, mass-produced drones not in the hundreds but in the thousands that just fly around ready to attack. Not all countries will insist on "man-in-the-loop".

F-35 is great but on the ground it is very vulnerable. So is a Leo2 or Abrams, when the opponent can drop cheap bombs from cheap, autonomous drones with neural network chips.

Clearly we need lasers not just on the F-35s but also on the ground. Lots of lasers. And perhaps something to fry electronics. We also need more stealth and mobility.

If you want to plan for the future you have to make predictions of what the future will look like, and not just look at how it was yesterday or today....

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 02:42
by ricnunes
@loke

I don't want to turn this into a tank.net thread/forum but I believe that your points need addressing:

You say that a modern MBT like the Leopard 2 or the M1 Abrams is vulnerable to airstrikes, being it fighter aircraft (like the F-35) or armed UAVs. But guess what? So is "your future stealth tank"!
And moreover, in order for your "future stealth tank" to be lets say more and effectively harder to find by opposing air assets (resuming, stealthier) you probably need a much lighter kind of vehicle which by its turn would make it much more vulnerable to enemy ground forces which are the tanks main threat since afterall tanks are designed to fight enemy GROUND forces and NOT enemy AIR forces.

Moreover and I don't think that on NATO perspective Tanks (being it lighter stealthier ones or current heavier ones) would never be sent if Air Superiority or something that resembles it still wasn't achieved.

So I would say that that "light stealth tank" would probably be quite vulnerable against even an enemy soldier armed with an RPG or a similar weapons. Now as opposed a modern tanks can withstand with literally dozens of RPGs and still continue fighting - for example at least one US M1 Abrams was known to be hit at least 18 times with RPGs during the Iraq invasion in 2003 and the tank just kept fighting with no harm to the crewman. Another example was, if my memory doesn't fail me, another M1 Abrams this time in 1991 during Desert Storm with took a direct hot from a SABOT round (with DU penetrator) and the crew survived and the tank was apparently put back into service quite soon afterwards. This is a level of protection that simply NO OTHER kind of armored vehicle can provide.

So, I believe that a short answer to why current MBTs such as Leopard 2, M1 Abrams, Challenger 2 will likely continue to be in service for many years to come and likely nothing in the foreseeable future will likely replace them is IMO this:
- Current MBTs have an almost perfect balance between survivability and mobility.

So it's very, very hard to design something which is as resistant to enemy fire but at the same time as mobile as current MBTs (and at the same time "stealth"). I'm not saying that something won't come along in the far future but it will take quite some time, IMO.
Moreover, current MBTs have shown to have a tremendous upgrade capability, including modular kind of upgrades. The Leopard 2 in particular has shown how a modern MBT can easily be vastly upgraded. For example this, the basic Leopard 2A4:
Image

Compared in the next two pictures alongside with upgraded 2A4:
Image

Image

And to this (more upgraded Leopard 2A4):
Image

And this (more upgraded Leopard 2A4):
Image

And the above are all upgrades to a rather earlier variant of the Leopard 2, the AA4. Imagine the newer variants like the 2A5, 2A6 and 2A7!

I wonder if your future stealth vehicle/tank would be:
1- Just as upgradable as MBT (Leopard 2) above?
2- Just as resistant to enemy heavy fire as the above (namely the upgraded ones)?
3- Have a better balance between resistance to enemy fire and mobility (namely on rough terrain)?

By the way, you never wondered why a new MBT isn't being developed?
Perhaps because of the reasons above but again this is only my humble opinion :wink:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 07:45
by neptune
loke wrote:Since it seems they have decided to develop their own 5. gen fighter with France it would probably be cheaper to skip the F-35 alltogether and make do without nuclear bombs until the new 5. gen fighter is ready.

Some of the same thinking that was behind the UK's decision to drop carrier aviation for several years until the F-35B is ready (and the new carriers of course).

To NATO a few F-35 more or less would not make a big difference. How many F-35 will NATO countries have by 2030?

So much to do and so little money to spend...



....I'm not seeing a technological step up from the EU to get to Gen5. The F-35 is their technology "booster shot" to get them on to whatever they chase next. I personally like several of their missiles and sensor systems.
:)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 15:48
by count_to_10
hythelday wrote:This isn't tank-net.com

Well, more to the point, this is the F-35 Units board, while a discussion of tanks probably belongs in the Technology board.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 23:19
by popcorn
Technology subforum is for aviation stuff.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 00:15
by spazsinbad
8) :roll: Tanks for the memory [Dean Martin]. Where are the German F-35 units? viewtopic.php?f=22&t=53630 :doh: :devil: :twisted:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 00:17
by count_to_10
popcorn wrote:Technology subforum is for aviation stuff.

I suppose that’s true, but it has been a catch all for non aviation topics that no one complains about. The moderators have been known to drop the hammer on such discussions in the 5th gen boards.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 01:12
by hythelday
I've said in some thread before, but I'll repeat it:

The hang-up is in B61s.

F-35A will carry it - fact.
The Netherlands has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable F-16)
Italy has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable Tornado)
Turkey is still poised to get F-35A.
Belgium is still deciding, but IMO it is super certain they are going to get F-35A.
This leaves Germany at the crossroads: get F-35A as per Luftwaffe requests and because retaining B61 lets slack on conventional armed forces OR pick EF2000 because it's good for the industry and reap political benefits from expelling B61from Büchel AB.
I am willing to bet six-pack worth of money Germans won't pay for/won't allow nuke integration on Typhoon. Which means that by choosing either jet we'll get a hint on what their standing on dual key bombs is.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 04:09
by nutshell
hythelday wrote:I've said in some thread before, but I'll repeat it:

The hang-up is in B61s.

Italy has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable Tornado)
.


We don't have nukes tho.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 04:48
by h-bomb
nutshell wrote:
hythelday wrote:I've said in some thread before, but I'll repeat it:

The hang-up is in B61s.

Italy has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable Tornado)
.


We don't have nukes tho.


Odd per your former Prime Minister and President you do have some US nukes. Both Aviano and Ghedi have B61', estimated to be 70 to 90 in country.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Frances ... e&ie=UTF-8

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2018, 14:47
by nutshell
h-bomb wrote:
nutshell wrote:
hythelday wrote:I've said in some thread before, but I'll repeat it:

The hang-up is in B61s.

Italy has got F-35A (replacing nuke capable Tornado)
.


We don't have nukes tho.


Odd per your former Prime Minister and President you do have some US nukes. Both Aviano and Ghedi have B61', estimated to be 70 to 90 in country.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Frances ... e&ie=UTF-8


Around 70s, but it's US stuff operated by US personnel.

We technically banned the "atom" in 1986.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 15 Jan 2018, 01:14
by h-bomb
Ok Nutshell, you claim Italy is nuclear free, but your press does not agree with you...

2007: http://www.lastampa.it/2007/09/15/itali ... agina.html
2013: https://www.panorama.it/news/oltrefront ... ri-italia/

I have references to Italy getting rid of its "Native" weapons programs. The weapons in Italy are under US control and security, even at Ghedi where the US has no aircraft. This way the weapons are NPT compliant, as the US owns and controls the weapons still.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 01:35
by nutshell
h-bomb wrote:Ok Nutshell, you claim Italy is nuclear free, but your press does not agree with you...

2007: http://www.lastampa.it/2007/09/15/itali ... agina.html
2013: https://www.panorama.it/news/oltrefront ... ri-italia/

I have references to Italy getting rid of its "Native" weapons programs. The weapons in Italy are under US control and security, even at Ghedi where the US has no aircraft. This way the weapons are NPT compliant, as the US owns and controls the weapons still.


I know we host nuclear weapons, peaking around 95 warheads at some point, but it's still US owned weapons that we might not be able to operate anymore and god knows if we really could back in the cold war era.

We opted in the JSF program because it's an exceptional machine, the presence of b61 warheads is irrelevant when the bird is so much much much better then anything you got.

Btw if the m5s wins the election, chances are we will withdraw from the nuclear sharing initiative.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2018, 04:24
by neptune
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/12 ... n-germany/

Spat over the F-35 bubbles up in Germany


By: Sebastian Sprenger  
December 12, 2017

COLOGNE, Germany ―
German Defence Ministry leaders have distanced themselves from their Air Force chief, Lt. Gen. Karl Muellner, over his appetite for the F-35, as at least one lawmaker suspects intrigue seeping into the debate. Deputy Defence Minister Ralf Brauksiepe clarified Monday that the government views the Eurofighter as the “primary” option for replacing the country’s fleet of Tornado jets in 2025. The U.S.-made F-15E, the F/A-18E/F and the F-35 are considered only as “secondary” choices, he wrote in a letter. The missive, first reported by Reuters on Monday and independently obtained by Defense News, comes after Muellner said last month he prefers the stealthy F-35 because of its advertised capability to attack targets from so far away that pilots can stay out of the danger of combat.

A review of all aircraft options would be made in a “wholistic context,” Brauksiepe added, a likely nod to the expectation that political and cost considerations could end up trumping operational capabilities. Brauksiepe’s response is consistent with previous statements by ministry officials, often made privately, who have cringed at Muellner’s outspoken support for the Lockheed Martin-made F-35. Exactly how much sway the Air Force will have in a final decision remains to be seen. Those here opposed to choosing the F-35 argue that the advent of that aircraft in Germany could endanger German-French plans for an entirely new plane, announced to much fanfare in July. Leaders from both countries consider that project an important part of the vision for greater military prowess of the European Union.
:)

....and the beat goes on!
:roll:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2018, 04:32
by steve2267
By the time the FrancoHessians cobble together a 5th gen demonstrator, if their relationship doesn't splinter into an ugly divorce, the US will probably have already produced a 6th gen PACA (or whatever) and be moving on towards a 7th gen...

but hey, JOBS!!!

At least they are not claiming they are shovel ready! :roll:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 24 Jan 2018, 04:57
by neptune
steve2267 wrote:By the time the FrancoHessians cobble together a 5th gen demonstrator, if their relationship doesn't splinter into an ugly divorce, the US will probably have already produced a 6th gen PACA (or whatever) and be moving on towards a 7th gen...but hey, JOBS!!! At least they are not claiming they are shovel ready! :roll:


....one would hope that somehow the UE folks could come to terms with a jobs swap?? thingee for the Italian FACO to crank out the required Tornado replacements! trading VAT or carbon credits or whatever economic BS that motivates pols. I could see France and Germany getting into the high-tech F-35 subsytems that could lead them to future international aviation contributions. I doubt we will see in the near future any sole French or German a/c, muchless anything they would attempt to joint venture! IMHO
:)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2018, 19:49
by hythelday
A prime example is the decision that Berlin needs to take soon on the succession of its Tornado aircraft, ... The Tornado succession is likely to lead to a debate about nuclear deterrence, including calls to abandon nuclear sharing. This rather technical issue is likely to turn political and risks unsettling the new German government, which is likely to be a fragile grand coalition and not at all comfortable in dealing with such issues.


http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurop ... 9jRkNkdSJ9

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2018, 15:41
by spazsinbad
Nuclear burden-sharing dictates that Germany acquire the F-35
08 Mar 2018 Dan Goure

"Nuclear deterrence is again at the forefront of strategic planning issues — not only for the United States but also its major allies, particularly the members of NATO....

...The Trump administration’s Nuclear Posture Review illustrates from an American standpoint the long-standing view that a strong, cohesive nuclear alliance is the most effective means of deterring aggression and promoting peace and stability in the Euro-Atlantic region. Deterrence, particularly of nuclear attack, is dependent on deploying and maintaining credible and effective military capabilities.

In addition, the sharing of responsibility for the storage and delivery of tactical nuclear weapons among member countries is a key aspect of NATO’s strategic deterrent. NATO’s arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons consists entirely of air-delivered B61 gravity bombs. Currently, in addition to U.S. forward-based fighters, five NATO countries — Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey — host tactical nuclear weapons, and all of these but Turkey have dual-capable aircraft dedicated to their delivery.

For Germany’s part, the new government faces a major defense procurement decision with serious consequences not only for that country’s security but the future of NATO. The German Air Force, the Luftwaffe, must decide within the next several years on a replacement for its fleet of some 70 Tornado fighters. These aircraft need to be retired starting in 2025....

...Fifth-generation aircraft, currently the American-built F-22 and F-35, have capabilities that make them particularly suitable for missions involving countering advanced air defenses. Also, in recent Red Flag exercises, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter achieved a 15-to-1 air-to-air kill ratio against a variety of fourth-generation aircraft. These are the major reasons why three U.S. military services and the U.K., Italy, Norway, Canada, the Netherlands and Turkey, NATO members all, have already committed to acquiring the F-35. Belgium is currently examining several options to replace its F-16s, including the F-35.

Some number of F-35As, the version being acquired by the U.S. Air Force and several NATO allies, will be modified with the wiring and other gear to enable them to carry the B61. Current plans call for a nuclear-capable F-35A to be fielded in the early 2020s. This timeline would meet the Luftwaffe’s schedule for retiring its Tornado fighters...." [READ ALL at URL]

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... -the-f-35/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2018, 19:55
by wil59
spazsinbad wrote:
Nuclear burden-sharing dictates that Germany acquire the F-35
08 Mar 2018 Dan Goure

"Nuclear deterrence is again at the forefront of strategic planning issues — not only for the United States but also its major allies, particularly the members of NATO....

...The Trump administration’s Nuclear Posture Review illustrates from an American standpoint the long-standing view that a strong, cohesive nuclear alliance is the most effective means of deterring aggression and promoting peace and stability in the Euro-Atlantic region. Deterrence, particularly of nuclear attack, is dependent on deploying and maintaining credible and effective military capabilities.

In addition, the sharing of responsibility for the storage and delivery of tactical nuclear weapons among member countries is a key aspect of NATO’s strategic deterrent. NATO’s arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons consists entirely of air-delivered B61 gravity bombs. Currently, in addition to U.S. forward-based fighters, five NATO countries — Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey — host tactical nuclear weapons, and all of these but Turkey have dual-capable aircraft dedicated to their delivery.

For Germany’s part, the new government faces a major defense procurement decision with serious consequences not only for that country’s security but the future of NATO. The German Air Force, the Luftwaffe, must decide within the next several years on a replacement for its fleet of some 70 Tornado fighters. These aircraft need to be retired starting in 2025....

...Fifth-generation aircraft, currently the American-built F-22 and F-35, have capabilities that make them particularly suitable for missions involving countering advanced air defenses. Also, in recent Red Flag exercises, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter achieved a 15-to-1 air-to-air kill ratio against a variety of fourth-generation aircraft. These are the major reasons why three U.S. military services and the U.K., Italy, Norway, Canada, the Netherlands and Turkey, NATO members all, have already committed to acquiring the F-35. Belgium is currently examining several options to replace its F-16s, including the F-35.

Some number of F-35As, the version being acquired by the U.S. Air Force and several NATO allies, will be modified with the wiring and other gear to enable them to carry the B61. Current plans call for a nuclear-capable F-35A to be fielded in the early 2020s. This timeline would meet the Luftwaffe’s schedule for retiring its Tornado fighters...." [READ ALL at URL]

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... -the-f-35/
////
why not this, France is a member of the NATO as well and can provide the means of nuclear deterrence too and it is already operational http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/asmpa/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-Sol_M ... ort%C3%A9e

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 21:41
by loke
The steel tariffs imposed by Trump will probably not make the German politicians more positive to the F-35....

Unless Trump is changing his tune Germany will go for more Typhoons.

The world is rapidly unravelling.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 22:46
by vilters
Toink, toink, toink,
That's me falling over.
Germans are not stupid you know.
2 Disasters is more then enough. (Tornado and Tiffy)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2018, 23:29
by lbk000
vilters wrote:2 Disasters

"Not stupid" you say

Fool me once...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2018, 00:27
by SpudmanWP
vilters wrote:Toink, toink, toink,
That's me falling over.
Germans are not stupid you know.
2 Disasters is more then enough. (Tornado and Tiffy)

So their 2 prior choices of going with a "European" jet were "disasters"?

Great, so you support Germany going with the F-35?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 09:39
by kimjongnumbaun
Luffwaffe General dismissed after supporting the F-35.

“The Chief of the Luftwaffe is to leave his position in large part due to his support for a German procurement of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), Jane’s has learned.”

http://www.janes.com/article/78644/luft ... 35-support

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2018, 16:50
by madrat
The former Stazi has asserted itself over the content and happy former western half. There is absolutely no reason to suspect these new German leaders are faithful to their own people judging by their pivot against America. They already had the trappings of being overly friendly with Russia. Now there is no reason to guess why they are so happy to import chaos. It's the old Marxist attempt to create problems they have to solve with more terrible solutions. An independent European stealth fighter of the same weight class is lunacy.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 13:51
by mixelflick
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Luffwaffe General dismissed after supporting the F-35.

“The Chief of the Luftwaffe is to leave his position in large part due to his support for a German procurement of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), Jane’s has learned.”

http://www.janes.com/article/78644/luft ... 35-support


He'll ultimately be vindicated, at the cost of career suicide. Sad to see this happening but that's how the world works. They just want yes men...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2018, 14:44
by madrat
No different than sellouts like McConnell asking for heads of career officers that spoke unflattering things about China. When you realize who he married and her father's ties to the communist communities of both Russia and China, it makes you wonder his allegiance.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 02:02
by nutshell
It's a lost train.

Trump's tariffs on steel and aluminum i guess the JSF defenetively lost a potential customer.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 05:35
by Corsair1963
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Luffwaffe General dismissed after supporting the F-35.

“The Chief of the Luftwaffe is to leave his position in large part due to his support for a German procurement of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), Jane’s has learned.”

http://www.janes.com/article/78644/luft ... 35-support


It will years before Germany actually replace the Tornados. So, I wouldn't rule out the F-35 in the future...


Especially, considering the Typhoon wouldn't survive in the role post 2030! :shock:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 11:30
by citanon
Well, perhaps it's for the best. Everyone else in Europe will sleep a little better knowing that the Luftwaffe will continue to be weaker than the bean counters, factory bosses and worker's unions in Germany. One wouldn't want Herr Goring back again. :D :devil:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2018, 12:57
by magitsu
Plenty of these recently. Macron caused Chief of the Defence Staff Pierre de Villiers to resign. In Canada the military's 2nd in command Mark Norman was forced out because he ensured that the very necessary auxiliary oiler got made instead of waiting for the new ones to get completed in 10 years. Damn politics getting in the way of logic.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-20/f ... on/8726124
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/admiral ... -1.4057763

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2018, 00:10
by nutshell
http://www.ilgiornale.it/news/mondo/luf ... 11310.html

(Google Translation not included)

So basically, German MoD pretty much declared Tornado not viable/deployable anymore for Nato OPs.
The main reasons appears to be the very low security offered by its cyberwarfare system (makes me laugh a bit, what did they expect?) and the lack of a modern IFF, both systems were supposed to be part of an upgrade suite that Luftwaffe now officially dismiss as a viable solution.
Is this the prelude of Germany selling its soul to LM ?
I think it's a scenario more realistic than ever, since it looks a bit "too sudden" for the planned franco-german 5th gen.
OTOH, this might be the first step for Germany departure from the alliance. Who knows.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 17:21
by spazsinbad
Lockheed, US Air Force mount F-35 sales pitch at Berlin Air Show [airshow bit in appropriate other thread]
23 Apr 2018 Sebastian Sprenger HERE for other: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24622&p=393255&hilit=sprenger#p393255 ]

"...The preferred candidate for the Germans, however, is a beefed-up version of the Eurofighter Typhoon, made by a consortium of Airbus, BAE Systems and Leonardo. That preference is in part based on industrial policy calculations. Nursing a European combat aircraft industry is a prerequisite for fulfilling the promise of a militarily stronger Europe, the thinking goes.

Airbus Defence and Space chief Dirk Hoke told the Welt am Sonntag newspaper that if Germany picks the American F-35, it would upend plans for the German-French co-development of a new-generation aircraft that would begin service sometime in the 2040s. Officials from both countries are expected to sign a top-level agreement at the Berlin Air Show about that future platform’s envisioned characteristics. “As soon as Germany becomes an F-35 nation, cooperation with France on all combat aircraft topics will die,” Hoke warned....

...a U.S. delegation of Lockheed Martin executives and government officials is expected to hand over detailed data about the jet to the German Defense Ministry on Tuesday. The move comes in response to a request for information that went out to all potential vendors as part of Germany’s efforts to survey the market. Some backers of the F-35 here hold the somewhat cynical view that Germany would much rather not have a competitive combat aircraft in service as an excuse for opting out of future operations....

...Critics of the F-35 as a choice for Germany argue that the planes would be much more expensive than the Eurofighter Typhoon option. [seems illogical] And that’s not even counting the cost of sustaining the fleet, especially in relatively low numbers, and the prospect of ceding key program decisions to a trans-Atlantic partner that many in Germany have come to see as increasingly capricious."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -air-show/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 17:32
by vilters
Ghoring would say.

Vve vvill vvin the vvar mein herrr.....

More Tiffy's?
They must have won the lottery.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 18:34
by ricnunes
spazsinbad wrote:
...Critics of the F-35 as a choice for Germany argue that the planes would be much more expensive than the Eurofighter Typhoon option. [seems illogical] And that’s not even counting the cost of sustaining the fleet, especially in relatively low numbers, and the prospect of ceding key program decisions to a trans-Atlantic partner that many in Germany have come to see as increasingly capricious."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -air-show/


LoL, that one above (underlined and bold) just won the "most comical comment of the month" and is a strong contender to win the "most comical comment of 2018" award... :roll: :doh:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 04:15
by citanon

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 06:31
by sunstersun
more eurofighters pls.

fly em from 2025-2060. Be the only ones to support a typhoon fleet when 7th generation is one the way.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2018, 07:06
by Corsair1963
My guess is the Nations of the JSF (F-35) Partners would be real "up-set" if Germany selects more Typhoons. As they clearly wouldn't be capable of performing as a Tornado Replacement post 2030. (just not survivable)


Especially, considering Germany is shouldering less and less of the Defense burden for Europe. :shock:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 21:46
by spazsinbad

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 22:11
by spazsinbad
Read some more HOOhaa here:

Lockheed tries to steer clear of German F-35 politics 26 Apr 2018 Sebastian Sprenger

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... -politics/
&
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-448062/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 18:30
by talkitron
This article and accompanying short video have some interesting details on the chronic unavailability of German military vehicles. In particular, there are only enough parts and weapons for four (!!!!) out of 128 Typhoons at a time and a major limitation of the Typhoon in German service is that its so-called Defensive Aids Subsystem (DASS) is a German-only model whose coolant supplier has gone out of business.

Unfortunately, the DASS pods on Germany's Typhoons have been failing because of coolant leaks. And the supplier for the part needed to repair the leak is no longer in business. As the rest of Eurofighters' customers are upgrading their DASS systems to the Praetorian DASS from the Italian defense company Leonardo, the factory for the part was sold—and Germany, which did not opt for the upgrade, is now left without a supplier.


https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... bat-ready/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2018, 10:10
by sunstersun
I pretty much have 0 hope for Germany buying the F-35. I doubt the F-35 would win even if Obama was still in office.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2018, 15:48
by mk82
Corsair1963 wrote:My guess is the Nations of the JSF (F-35) Partners would be real "up-set" if Germany selects more Typhoons. As they clearly wouldn't be capable of performing as a Tornado Replacement post 2030. (just not survivable)


Especially, considering Germany is shouldering less and less of the Defense burden for Europe. :shock:


It is frankly a stupid decision for Germany to acquire more Typhoons when most of their (current) Typhoons are not suitable for operational/combat duties (due to significant logistical/maintenance issues). But I guess Germany could increase the number of operational/combat ready Typhoons to a grand total of 8 aircraft (yay!!!! :roll: ) if Germany acquires more Typhoons :mrgreen:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 19:03
by talkitron
Here is a rumor on an Italian site: Germany might acquire 90 Typhoons to replace its Tornados and possible even 33 updated Typhoons to replace tranche 1 Typhoons.

http://www.portaledifesa.it/index~phppag,3_id,2407.html

Google Translate:

Germany now seems to have decided that the TORNADO substitute will be the TYPHOON Eurofighter. Political and industrial reasons, however, push in this direction despite the fact - officially and unofficially - preference of the Luftwaffe for the F-35. Times are tight and from here to a year we will probably know who has popped up for a requirement of 90 aircraft plus possibly another 33 specimens to replace the TYPHOON Tranche 1. Sure is that if the TYPHOON - agile hunting, powerful and fast par excellence - will have to replace a fighter-bomber as the TORNADO, the changes will have to be many and very extensive, and significant investments, to the full advantage, however, of the Old Continent industry. First of all the radar. Even now we know that the Germans want the R1 Plus Plus configuration of the CAPTOR-E, but this also means upgrading the DASS PRAETORIAN self-protection system to avoid interference of any kind and to allow the 2 systems to work together optimally. As is known, in fact, the CAPTOR-E, in its 2 most advanced versions, R1 Plus Plus and R2 (the latter only for the English) also has electronic warfare capabilities which, in fact, must be combined with the functionalities offered by the DAS for optimize the performance of the machine as a whole. Then it will be necessary to intervene on the engine - in particular on the FADEC, but we also talk about enlarging the fan - to adapt it to the new cycle and also evaluate how to extend the autonomy - even if at the moment there is no mention of CFT. A last note. In addition to the TORNADO IDS, the TYPHOON should eventually also replace the TORNADO ECR and be adapted for nuclear strike. In the first case, we need to think about the integration of an escort jammer - and here the mind runs to the EDGE of Electronics, the only non-US and non-Israeli product available - and anti-radiation missiles. In Europe, Germany is the only nation with Italy that has this ability: fundamental, therefore, do not lose it, especially if you think about the turn that are taking the new scenarios. In the second case, you will have to talk to the Americans to integrate the B-61 nuclear bomb and certify the aircraft. One thing by no means trivial and that Washington is now using as a lever of blackmail in favor of the F-35. In definitive it is all very expensive changes, but that would serve the German industry to relaunch, after years of wrong choices that have made it significantly decay especially in the electronics and aeronautics, and also to the Italian that certain skills, fortunately, He still has it. Please do not forget it.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 19:53
by magitsu
Yeah, it's related to Reuters story about an inquiry whether the US would allow their nukes to be carried on Typhoons.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... reddit.com

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 22:53
by usnvo
magitsu wrote:Yeah, it's related to Reuters story about an inquiry whether the US would allow their nukes to be carried on Typhoons.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... reddit.com


It is unlikely the Germans would ever buy the F-35 as long as a German option is available regardless of price or capability.

I listened to the Chief of Staff of the Marine (Navy) explain why the NH-90 was not a viable replacement to the Sea King for the SAR mission (having less than half the endurance required by the mission requirements was a big part of it but also cheaper alternatives like the CH-148 and AW101 existed that could meet the required endurance). The Defense Ministry purchased NH-90s anyway and told the Navy to change the requirements.

I suspect that whatever the results of the evaluation, even if the Typhoon is the most expensive option (pretty much guaranteed since they have been in denial of Typhoon costs for years https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... 6C20140430) and least capable, the Typhoon will be purchased. And frankly, there is really nothing wrong with that other than the hypocrisy of having a "competition". Just say you are buying German regardless and be done with it. Let's just hope they actually buy spare parts this time.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 23:02
by SpudmanWP
Well, if we kick Turkey out of the program that will free up a bunch of room for Germany to buy into the program. :mrgreen:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 23:55
by Corsair1963
The longer Germany puts off a decision on a Tornado Replacement. The harder it will be for them to acquire more Typhoons. As it will be obvious that operating 4th Generation Fighter post 2030 is noting short of "Suicide". :shock:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 01:55
by madrat
The leadership of Germany has been prone to entertaining such notions of late. May be intentional.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 01:59
by weasel1962
Who is Germany going to fight in the next 2 decades?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 03:06
by popcorn
weasel1962 wrote:Who is Germany going to fight in the next 2 decades?

Is your house going to burn down in the next 2 decades? I bet you have insurance and buy the best that you can afford to address the risk.
As the saying goes "the only thing more expensive than a first-rate air force is a second-rate one'.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 03:31
by rheonomic
popcorn wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Who is Germany going to fight in the next 2 decades?

Is your house going to burn down in the next 2 decades? I bet you have insurance and buy the best that you can afford to address the risk.


To be fair to the Germans, they're willing to defend Europe from the Russians to the last Pole.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 05:02
by weasel1962
popcorn wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Who is Germany going to fight in the next 2 decades?

Is your house going to burn down in the next 2 decades? I bet you have insurance and buy the best that you can afford to address the risk.
As the saying goes "the only thing more expensive than a first-rate air force is a second-rate one'.


This is where we differ. I would buy the right amount of the right type of insurance (same thing goes for car insurance). I may not buy from an insurance provider who may not pay out when I need it (e.g. F-35 embargo risk).

Today's world is not just military conflict risk but trade wars, budget risks where unbridled unfocussed spending can be sustained. That unfortunately is the result of a successful NATO which has enabled Europeans nations to reduce their military expenditures to record lows.

Ironically, buying F-35s would ideally be the right way to minimise those costs. The theory of comparative advantage means technically the one who can produce it cheapest should build it. However, that theory is not applicable in the military sphere. That is because buying from a foreign party is actually outsourcing the risk.

As can be seen from the Turkey example, it provides the supplier the ability to influence future procurement decisions and actually increases sovereignty risks. The question is really when Germany needs a Typhoon replacement rather than a Tornado replacement. If they need a Tornado replacement today, they'd just build more Typhoons.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 09:05
by Corsair1963
Honestly, I think Merkel maybe using the issue to get back at Trump over trade. As the Germans are no dummies..... :wink:


Also, now Germany is asking the US how long and how much it will cost to upgrade the Typhoon for the Nuclear Strike Role. Easy, the US says a gazillion and a decade to do so......WOW makes the F-35 look real good!
:doh:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 13:32
by steve2267
In the face of S-300, S-400, S-500 air defenses, is Typhoon really a credible nuclear delivery option going forward?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2018, 17:20
by magitsu
Probably not, but you know... have to explore the domestic options due to domestic political reasons.
They would probably prefer that the US would make the decision for them by denying nuke tech transfer to Typhoons.

They've been doing these things which smell like political plays. Like the G36 rifles failing at very high temperature, allowing them to dump more money to Heckler & Koch. But they don't seem to be allowing anyone to buy their old G36s... :devil:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 18 Sep 2018, 00:01
by talkitron
Here is a long article in German about the F-35 program and all its possible problems. In the end, the article tends more positive and the author seems to endorse Germany buying the F-35 to replace its Tornados. I will put the English translation from Google here.

https://www.offiziere.ch/?p=34118

It is the most expensive military aircraft procurement program in the world: F-35 Lightning II , as the official name, is that of Lockheed Martin for the US Air Force ( USAF ), US Navy ( USN ) and US Marine Corps ( USMC ), as part of the Joint Strike Fighter program, jointly developed 5th-generation stealth caps , the F-16 Falcon , F-18 Hornet , AV-8B Harrier II and A-10 Warthogin the US Air Force. While the 'A' version of the USAF conventionally takes off and lands (CTOL: Conventional Take-Off and Landing), the 'B' is a short-launching and vertically-landing variant specially developed for the USMC and its amphibious attack ships (STOVL Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing) while the 'C' version is used by aircraft carriers of the USN (CV: Carrier Variant). By the year 2070, the procurement, operation and maintenance of the approximately 2,400 fighter aircraft will cost approximately $ 1.5 trillion.
The F-35 should become an export hit
In contrast to the stealth air superiority fighter F-22 RaptorThe F-35 was and is intended for export right from the start. Eight other countries are not only buying the F-35, but are also actively involved in the overall project financing and construction of the fighter aircraft: the United Kingdom, Italy, Australia, Canada, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands and Turkey. Israel has a special position in the project because it is the only country that is able to equip the F-35 with its own avionics and software and is responsible for the maintenance itself. After all, Japan and Korea are pure buyer countries. Despite this international cooperation, the project is seven years behind schedule and has so far exceeded $ 163 billion over the original budget. Each fighter jet version 'A' currently costs about $ 95 million, the 'B' and 'C' even around $ 120 million. While at the beginning of the development phase, the planners had still provided an 80% compliance of the components for the 'A', 'B and' C 'variants to reduce maintenance costs, depending on the version, only 27 to 43% remained. Reasons for this were, among other things, the wishes of the USMC for a STOVL capability to replace the obsolete, vertically launching AV-8B fighter jets, as well as the USN for larger, folding wings with more fuel and a reinforced landing gear for use on aircraft carriers. The USAF was initially a bit more frugal: they initially wanted to replace only their F -16 and A-10, where there was still the procurement of a larger number of F-22 planned, which then later for cost reasons could not be realized.

US Government [Public Domain]
US Government [Public Domain]


The German Air Force wishes the F-35 as a replacement for Tornado
late last year , the former inspector of the Air Force Karl Müllner pleaded indirectly for the F-35 as a replacement for the outdated 85 German Tornado multipurpose fighter aircraft. The Luftwaffe, according to Müllner, needed a fighter aircraft that could fight enemy targets from a distance with low radar signature. For a complete new development, it was already too late. The Ministry of Defense, in contrast, declared that it preferred a further developed Eurofighter Typhoon as a replacement for the Tornado and is probably only subordinate to the procurement of the F-35, F-15 or F / A-18 ("'F-35' for the Bundeswehr ?: Air Force names requirements for 'Tornado' successor , Spiegel Online, 08.11.2017). General Müllner was prematurely retired on 29.5.2018 . Procurement is politically and militarily delicate, if only because the German tornados are intended for so-called " nuclear participation ". While the US fighters all have a clearance to drop the corresponding B-61Nuclear bombs own (F-15, F-18) or soon will have (F-35 presumably from 2020), the Eurofighter, apart from the still to be created technical conditions, would get a corresponding release from the US government in the first place. For this, the US would demand insight into the technical specifications and documents of the Eurofighter, which is unlikely to be fair to the European project partners for competitive reasons alone.
Eurofighter Typhoon EF2000 (reg 30 + 68) of the German Air Force (German Air Force, Tactical Air Force Squadron 74) at ILA Berlin Air Show 2016 (photo: Julian Herzog [GFDL or CC BY 4.0].
Eurofighter Typhoon EF2000 (reg 30 + 68) of the German Air Force (German Air Force, Tactical Air Force Squadron 74) at ILA Berlin Air Show 2016 (photo: Julian Herzog [GFDL or CC BY 4.0].


Is the F-35 the right aircraft for the German Air Force?
But would the F-35A, which experts like to mockingly call a "flying computer", really be a suitable successor to the Tornado of the Luftwaffe? Should not the Ministry of Defense rely on a modified "Eurofighter" Eurofighter or better still buy the proven F-18 Super Hornet ? Of course, in an armaments project of this size, the critics speak out immediately. In the F-35, the opinions ignite mainly on the attempt of the manufacturer Lockheed Martinto develop not only a fighter jet for three different forces and their specific requirements, but also a variety of older types of aircraft for the purposes air superiority (F-15), multipurpose (F-16), close air support (A-10), as whiz ( AV-8B) as well as bomber and electronic warfare (F / A-18). A project that had to be doomed from the start because of its complexity, but now too big and too expensive to really fail? It is unusual that the manufacturer Lockheed Martin was granted when placing the order, even in the test and testing phase to produce a variety of "pre-production models" (so-called " Concurrency") And to deliver these to the US armed forces (as of July 2018: 305+ pieces), instead of the production after the series maturity of a smaller number of prototypes to include (" fly before you buy ").
Pentagon Internal Audit Review on F-35 Sobering
The US Department of Defense (DOT & E) Director of Operational Test & Evaluation oversees compliance with the contracted technical and security requirements for all types of weapons systems Evaluations on the progress and current status of the F-35 project by the Joint Program Office ( JPO ) development department for the fiscal years 2016 and 2017are - to put it mildly - very sobering: in the current test report 2017, the DOT & E states that the operational suitability of the F-35 lags behind the requirements and does not yet meet the expectations of the armed forces. In some cases, deployments could only be flown through technically unforeseen workarounds. The sourcing program is currently delivering F-35 with the skills that are needed to tackle current threats. The countrywide availability rate of the F-35 fleet has remained at an unacceptable 50% since October 2014, although more and more machines have been put into service since then. The technical reliability of the delivered aircraft is also stagnating,

JSF maintainer (photo: Chrissy Cuttita / US Air Force [Public domain])
JSF maintainer (photo: Chrissy Cuttita / US Air Force [Public domain])

In its report, the DOT & E has a total of 301 major (software) errors in areas such as targeting, weapons integration, survivability, mission planning , cyber security, ALIS softwareand maintainability determined. Of these, at least 88 are in the "processing", the remaining 213 errors remain unresolved. These serious defects do not allow the confirmation of the conditional or basic operational readiness by DOT & E necessary for the start of mass production of the F-35. Nevertheless, in order to continue the construction of other, not fully operational F-35, the JPO now wants to officially complete the development phase and move into a "continuous capability development and delivery phase". However, in its 2017 report, the internal audit reports serious concerns about this approach. Probably because, because of simultaneous development, Prototype testing and pre-production a considerable number of F-35 with different equipment exist. The already mentioned start-up test for the start of series production will probably not be possible until the end of 2019. By then, however, more than 600 aircraft have been built and delivered. These must all be retrofitted later, which in turn will trigger significant costs. The USAF had therefore seriously considered 108 delivered, fully paid F-35A pre-series models not even to update (so-called "Concurrency Orphans"), which has now been rejected, however. These must all be retrofitted later, which in turn will trigger significant costs. The USAF had therefore seriously considered 108 delivered, fully paid F-35A pre-series models not even to update (so-called "Concurrency Orphans"), which has now been rejected, however. These must all be retrofitted later, which in turn will trigger significant costs. The USAF had therefore seriously considered 108 delivered, fully paid F-35A pre-series models not even to update (so-called "Concurrency Orphans"), which has now been rejected, however.
Software is the "Achilles heel" of the F-35
The capabilities of the F-35 are determined on the one hand by their technical equipment and built-in electronics (including 31 IBM PowerPC processors with 75,000 MIPSOn the other hand, the underlying software for control and operation is an essential capability feature. Individual stages of development are summarized in blocks, which can also have subdivisions depending on the partial force. Block 1 describes "first-hour" aircraft built for training and testing purposes, while Block 2 already provided basic weapon functions, while Block 3F represents the current software release. The internal programming of the F-35 includes more than 8 million lines of software code, more than four times as many as the F-22. Taking into account the rule of thumb that even with sensitive armament jobs per 1,000 lines of code, a programming error occurs, it's no surprise that for the current, as a conditionally declarable version of the Block 3F R6 software is now the 31st update, which will follow even more. The Block 3F software was initially too unreliable, even for the first test flights. Even with the current version 3F R6.32 programming errors are still being discovered and eliminated.

The mission systems software blocks being developed for the program, the percentage of test points completed by block, and the build-up to full warfighting capability with Block 3F (Source: U.S. Government Accountability Office [Public domain]).
The mission systems software is completed by block, and the build-up to full theatrical capability with Block 3F (Source: US Government Accountability Office [Public Domain]).

Much more serious, however, is the lack of mission-relevant mission files (MDL). They contain extensive information about, for example, potential targets, enemy fighters, and other potential threats, such as anti-aircraft positions, with their electronic and / or infrared signatures, which must be loaded into the F-35 on-board computer each time before each mission and updated after each deployment. Without this MDL, the F-35 can neither find its goals nor escape potential threats. Your stealth ability depends largely on the MDL to calculate optimal flight paths away from enemy air defense and interceptors. For each area of ​​application, a separate MDL with mission-specific information must be created. In total, at least six such MDLs are needed for worldwide deployment and completion of the testing and testing phase. At least the first MDL for the upcoming series maturity tests in the US should be completed later this year. Only one location in the US is currently able to program the MDL for all F-35s: the US Reprogramming Laboratory (USRL) at theEglin Air Force Basein Florida. However, this "lab" alone requires 15 months for an MDL, so theoretically the preparation of the required six MDL would take seven and a half years. This does not include the required updates of already created MDL by the new information obtained after each use of an F-35 on existing or additional targets and threats, to which the USRL so far is not able, because it is with inadequate software and outdated or incomplete hardware works. In order to be able to thoroughly test the created MDL, the USRL also requires special electronics, so-called threat emitters, which generate identical signals as the expected enemy interceptors, radar positions and anti-aircraft missiles in the potential combat zone.

Another major weakness of the F-35 project is the Autonomic Logistics Information System ( ALIS ), owned and operated by Lookheed Martin, a worldwide manufacturer. It is a complex computer system consisting of 65 individual programs with 16 million lines of software code, which continuously collects and analyzes aircraft data. It is used, among other things, for operational planning, threat analyzes, maintenance diagnostics and planning, and for the ordering of spare parts. All F-35s, including non-US partner countries or buyers, need to update their mission files along with ALIS profiles before and after each flight. For this purpose, the data are read from each F-35, then after the Internet to the ALIS mainframe afterFort Worth in Texas, who then forwards them to the USRL and Lockheed Martin. From there, the updated mainframe data will be sent back to all F-35s, also overseas. If the Internet connection from the USA to Europe, for example, is interrupted by hacker attacks on network nodes or sabotage of the submarine cables , then the ALIS 'rejected' F-35s remain in the UK, Italy and in Turkey until further notice (Giovanni de Briganti, " US Software Stranglehold Threatens F-35 Foreign Operations", Defense-Aerospace.com, 04.11.2015). Because data transmission via satellite is hardly possible because of the high data volume of only a single F-35 squadron, as tests on board the aircraft carrier USS Washington in August 2016 showed. It took two whole days, partly due to tactical "silence", limited bandwidth and bad satellite connections to send a 200 MB ALIS file. It remains to be seen how these transmission problems will be resolved in the future when deploying entire squadrons of F-35 'B' / 'C' models on aircraft and amphibious attack vectors. The DOT & E called on the USN extent to further investigations.

Portable maintenance device loaded with joint technical data and plugged into F-35 (photo: Maj. Karen Roganov / US Air Force [Public domain]).
Portable maintenance device loaded with joint technical data and plugged into F-35 (photo: Maj. Karen Roganov / US Air Force [Public domain]).

However, the DOT & E points out further ALIS deficiencies in its audit report. After the last update of the software had the USMC base YumaIn Arizona in June 2017, the flight operations complete with all stationed there F-35 completely because, among other things, the engine data was not recorded properly. In addition, ALIS continuously issues incorrect values ​​about the need for repair or repair of components, which then lead to aircraft shutdowns, orders for spare parts and time-consuming but pointless technician assignments. Manual workarounds and interventions by ALIS administrators, now part of the maintenance routine of the mechanics, are required for operations that should have taken place automatically. In previous reports, the DOT & E also criticized the inadequate cyber security of the software and hardware against hacker attacks affecting both the ALIS and the F-35 itself. These well-known weaknesses were not eliminated in the 2017 reporting year. Now the auditor recommends that in view of current cyber threats, ALIS for test flights for the permitted period of up to 30 days better off completely off, but in principle does not correspond to the above-described, necessary interaction of ALIS and the F-35 to effective (combat) To fly stakes. Probably for these reasons too, Israel has contractually waived the right, as already mentioned, to maintain its necessary interaction of ALIS and the F-35 to fly effective (combat) missions. Probably for these reasons too, Israel has contractually waived the right, as already mentioned, to maintain its necessary interaction of ALIS and the F-35 to fly effective (combat) missions. Probably for these reasons too, Israel has contractually waived the right, as already mentioned, to maintain itsF-35I Adir himself to take over. There is a legitimate concern about not being able to deploy an F-35 in the middle of a conflict because ALIS has been compromised by cyberattacks. So, whether Israel stays out of the global network with ALIS or installs its own maintenance software is understandably secret.
ALIS is not only exposed to cyber threats on the Internet, it also transmits even in the opinion of some JSF partner countries too much operational data after each flight of an F-35 to the US Army and the non-state manufacturer Lockheed-Martin and thus violates the sovereignty of the Project participating countries. For example, Italy, Norway and Australia have decided to restrict the volume of sensitive data to be transferred to the US via ALIS in the future on the software side. In addition, Italy and Norway are building a common software laboratory in the US for programming country-specific mission files. However, the ALIS network also grants the US active control over the F-35s deployed in its partner countries through the distribution of updates and patches of the internal and external F-35 software. In the future, ALIS could also be used by the USA as a "Trojan Horse" in order to record malicious software in the F-35, which may have become disliked partner countries, and paralyze it on the software side.

The F-35I Adir (escorted by a F-16I Sufa) on his debut flight in Israel, December 2016 (photo: Major Ofer / Israeli Air Force [CC BY 4.0])
The F-35I Adir (escorted by a F-16I Sufa) on his debut flight in Israel, December 2016 (photo: Major Ofer / Israeli Air Force [CC BY 4.0])


The Targeting and Weapon Systems are Restricted
The Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) is a targeting system based on the Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod, which was previously developed for the F-16 . In order to preserve the stealth capabilities, an external container was dispensed with, and the EOTS on the bow of the F-35 was integrated into the lower fuselage in a sapphire crystal pulpit. It provides via the connection to the central computer with the help of a video camera, an infrared search / tracking system ( FLIR) and a range / target illumination laser, the target acquisition coordinates required for the on-board weapons during air and ground combat. The data thus obtained is transmitted to the pilot directly on the visor of his helmet. A head-up display ( HUD - windscreen projector), there is no longer in the cockpit of the F-35. According to the 2016 DOT & E report, the test pilots agreed that the integrated EOTS was less powerful than that of older 4th generation jets in an external container. Enemies could not be detected and identified at a tactically reasonable distance, targets can not be permanently laser-marked during the attack phase. Environmental influences, such as high humidity, would force the pilots to fly closer to potential targets than would actually be warranted. This would take the F-35's surprise effect, unnecessarily alert potential enemies, slow down the fire process and expose the F-35 to additional threats in the target area. The 2017 DOT & E report further states that that movable ground targets can not be adequately captured with the EOTS. The pilots would have to balance out technical deficiencies of the EOTS when sighting using "rule of thumb", which is neither effective nor allowed under real combat conditions. Due to the electronics used so far, these deficits of the EOTS can no longer be solved by software improvements alone. Not surprisingly, Lockheed Martin manufacturer announced in September 2015 that it would be ready for the upcoming Block 4 models of the F-35. " Due to the electronics used so far, these deficits of the EOTS can no longer be solved by software improvements alone. Not surprisingly, Lockheed Martin manufacturer announced in September 2015 that it would be ready for the upcoming Block 4 models of the F-35. " Due to the electronics used so far, these deficits of the EOTS can no longer be solved by software improvements alone. Not surprisingly, Lockheed Martin manufacturer announced in September 2015 that it would be ready for the upcoming Block 4 models of the F-35. "Advanced EOTS "with improved technology has announced that, however, can only be installed from 2020.
Electro-optical target sensor (EOTS) on a mock-up of the F-35. Photo taken at RIAT 2007 (Source: Dammit, Wikimedia Commons, Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Netherlands license)
Electro-optical target sensor (EOTS) on a mock-up of the F-35. Photo taken at RIAT 2007 (Source: Dammit , Wikimedia Commons , Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Netherlands license )

The weapon systems do not look much better. The F-35A is equipped with an internal, four-barreled 25mm Gatling gun for its intended air support roller . The weapons tests in 2017 turned out to be firing too far and too far to the right. There were also inaccuracies in the guns carried in separate weapons containers of the 'B' and 'C' models, though not as blatantly as in the 'A' version. The bugs have not been fixed in any version so far.

For the AIM-120 long-range air-to-space missile (beyond the visual horizon), weapon testing revealed problems with the F-35's technical integration and indicators, all of which are confidential. However, the published weapons test protocol shows that test firing of the AIM-120 AMRAAM either completely or partially failed or the evaluation of the results still lasts, whatever that means.

Weapons bay of a mock-up of the F-35. PPhoto taken at RIAT 2007 (Source: Dammit, Wikimedia Commons, Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Netherlands license)
Weapons bay of a mock-up of the F-35. Photo taken at RIAT 2007 (Source: Dammit , Wikimedia Commons , Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.5 Netherlands license )

In the air / ground weapons tests, shortcomings have been identified in connection with the EOTS, which prevent the complete and successful passage of the so-called "control loop" consisting of finding, fixing, tracking, aiming, firing and judging, thus making it difficult to use weapons when not even impossible. For example, in the case of precision-guided bombs ( JDAM ) , the F-35 pilots were able to check the transmitted, but not the target data actually stored in the bomb. However, combat zone combat rules usually require the pilot to confirm to the Air Force Officer ( FAC ) on the ground prior to firing the weapon the correct target data stored in the precision weapon.

"DAS" warning system is technically outdated and struggling with production errors
A distributed Aperture System consisting of six infrared cameras distributed on the front fuselage is used to monitor the airspace around the F-35"(DAS) inserted (in the picture below, a DAS camera can be seen directly in front of the cockpit on the bow). It provides the pilot with situational awareness day and night day and night by means of a spherical all-round view, even when looking down through the fuselage of the F-35, with the help of an additional navigation in complete darkness on the helmet mounted night vision camera is possible. In addition, the DAS detects / fights enemy anti-aircraft / radar positions, approaching enemy aircraft, gives the pilot a close friend / foe distinction in the air and independently initiates defense measures against detected threats (infrared decoy, chaff, electronic interference / defense ).

Damaged glass covers on the DAS cameras in 2017 were one of the reasons why F-35 fighter jets were repeatedly deemed non-operational by the USAF, while at least the USN and USMC considered them capable of flight. During night landings, however, it was also found that in combination with the night vision camera on the helmet in complete darkness (new moon, no starlight due to heavy cloud cover, no civilization light) the pilots lost situational awareness due to the poor image / resolution quality of the installed infrared cameras that safe flying or landing was no longer possible for the pilots by means of the DAS / helmet camera transmitted to the helmet visor external view.

F-35A front profile in flight. Photo: MSgt John Nimmo Sr. [Public Domain]) The doors are opened to expose the aerial refueling inlet valve.
F-35A front profile in flight. Photo: MSgt John Nimmo Sr. [Public Domain]) The doors are opened to expose the aerial refueling inlet valve.

Several further problems are manifested in the F-35: Besides qualitative defects in the production itself (faulty DAS glass covers, technically inadequate night vision camera, tires that wear too fast, lack of corrosion protection, mechanically labile tank probe), Due to the overlong testing phase and pre-series production, the currently installed DAS has been in use for more than 10 years and is now considered technically obsolete, similar to the EOTS mentioned above. Manufacturer Lockheed Martin announced in June 2018 , from 2023 for the lot 15 a much improved, more powerful and cheaper DAS of the company Raytheonto obstruct. However, since serial production is expected to be launched by then, the F-35 will be deployed in significantly different hardware and software configurations for the US flying forces from the 2020s, including the installation of the improved EOTS or DAS. Whether or not the new electronic components can be seamlessly integrated into the F-35 without additional technical and software-specific problems should be at least doubtful in view of the errors that have occurred so far. In any case, replacement of old and new generation electronic components will be very difficult, but probably not possible, due to the different software versions within the F-35 fleet.
VSI Helmet-mounted display system for the F-35 [Public domain]
VSI Helmet-mounted display system for the F-35 [Public domain]


Field experience with the F-35 paint a completely different picture
supervisory and control authorities in general, but also some of the harshest critics in particular, must be held against, from the green table "to make judgments based on extensive test protocols, without even with the Subject of their examination or criticism to have gained their own experience. Major Morten Hanche of the Norwegian Air Force, Head of the F-35 Testing / Evaluation Division there, has posted in 2016 several interesting blog posts about his experiences as a former F-16 and now current F-35 pilot who lack the usual, either overly positive or negative excitement (see under "Bibliography"). Based on his own experience with the F-35A, he finds the mostly negative interpretations of the DOT & E reports by the media to be exaggerated because they assume entirely unrealistic expectations. For him, a lack of perfection in the F-35 is not a disaster. He believes that compromises must always be made in the development and testing of such a highly complex aircraft as the F-35. For almost every error that occurs, there is either a workaround under operating conditions or you learn to live with it in everyday missionary life. The F-35 works well, even if it does not (yet) meet all specifications. He himself was impressed with the F-35, especially in the areas of speed, service height, range and maneuverability, because these features could not be improved in the future, unlike other shortcomings, simply by software updates. Compared to the F / A-18 Hornet you have the feeling of "flying with four engines". Also, he could confirm the stealth capabilities of the F-35, which unlike the F-16 was not to be located from a distance. A comparison with mature 4th generation fighters is not appropriate, because they already have a 40-year development and improvement phase behind them in order to even reach the current level of performance, a "maturity period" that the F-35 would lack so far. The F-16 was consistently plagued by errors and deficiencies when it was introduced in the 1970s, yet it can be considered one of the most successful fighter aircraft. Even today, the more modern F-16 of the Norwegian Air Force would struggle with deficiencies in avionics, software and logistics, which can not be resolved because their cause so far could not be determined or known problems due to the lack of cost / benefit ratio I do not eliminate want. In fact, the F-35 exceeds the expectations placed on it in action and also has a high probability of
Lt. Col. Christine Mau, 33rd Operations Group Deputy Commander, puts on her first flight in the F-35A on Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., May 5, 2015. Mau, who previously flew F-15E Strike Eagles, F-35 pilot in the program (photo: Staff Sgt. Marleah Robertson / US Air Force)
Lt. Col. Christine Mau, 33rd Operations Group Deputy Commander, puts on her first flight in the F-35A on Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., May 5, 2015. Mau, who previously flew F-15E Strike Eagles, F-35 pilot in the program (photo: Staff Sgt. Marleah Robertson / US Air Force)

Is the F-35 the right aircraft for the Luftwaffe?
Every major armament project in military aircraft has so far faced technical problems, long delays, significant budget overruns, and harsh criticism of the public, be they F-15, F-16, F / A-18 on American or Tornado, A-400, or Eurofighter on the European side. So it should not come as a surprise that such a highly complex weapon system as the F-35 could not do otherwise. When the F / A-18 was introduced to the USN, it lacked the range and payload of the A-7 Corsair and the acceleration and climb rate of the F-4 Phantom, Today, the F / A-18 is the backbone of the USN. If one reads in the last report of the DOT & E from 2017 sometimes "between the lines", even with a very pessimistic prognosis it can be assumed that by 2025 at the latest the F-35 has not only reached final production maturity, but - thanks to the exchange of whole (electronic) assemblies and other software updates - should have left a large part of their technical problems behind. Then the US has a 21st Century fighter jet that has made digital and networked warfare not just a buzzword, but a reality. Also with regard to the increased use of (lethal) autonomous weapons systems(LAWS) in conjunction with manned fighter jets, the F-35 is the ideal deployment platform for steering and monitoring. Of course, it is not invisible ("stealthy"), but it is probably harder to stealthy for the integrated Russian air defense than an F / A-18 or a modernized Eurofighter. And of course you will have to compromise with the F-35 as a multi-purpose combat aircraft in the individual tasks close air support, superiority and attack, but that is actually nothing really new since the tornado. Eventually, the price of the F-35 will have dropped below $ 80 million by 2025, which is certainly not a "bargain", but much cheaper than the current $ 95 million. Since many European NATO countries have also bought or want to buy the F-35,

As always with large armaments projects, there is no simple "yes" or "no" when procuring such an expensive, technically complex weapon system. Germany's decision on this issue will not want to offend either the US or France in terms of foreign and military policy, since they are both important allies within NATO and the EU. France had already announced that it was planning to complete the planning of the future European fighter plane immediately when buying the F-35 through Germany. On the other hand, the planned German-French fighter jet of 5./6. The generation would presumably be far too late to reach operational readiness to replace the Luftwaffe tornadoes in time by 2025. The US in turn could postpone a release of the Eurofighter nuclear participation to 7-10 years, S-400 / S-500 has not grown. The same problem exists in the Tornado but probably now synonymous. So best of all right to renounce nuclear participation with the US and build a common fighter jet with France, which would then carry French nuclear bombs for Germany to the finish? A variant that is rather unlikely in view of the European or German dependence on the US atomic screen for a credible nuclear deterrent in Europe.

US Government [Public Domain]
US Government [Public Domain]

Then better to follow the example of the British, Danes, Norwegians, Dutch and Italians in Europe and buy a technically (not yet mature) F-35, which also comes with high follow-up costs for maintenance and flight operations therefore? Or perhaps rather a "Solomonic solution", in which Germany procures the American F / A-18 Super Hornet for an estimated transitional period of about 15 to 20 years until the planned production / operational readiness of the planned German-French combat aircraft? No simple political decision that the Ministry of Defense will have to make in the near future.
The F-35 is probably not a catastrophic military disaster, even if it can not yet meet all the expectations put into it. It is expensive, but it is a (almost) ready-to-use stealth multi-purpose fighter aircraft of the 5th generation, which should have left behind its "teething troubles" by 2025 and could then provide the Luftwaffe with considerable military added value. For my part, I must confess that my heart in this armaments issue is more transatlantic for the F-35 than pan-European for a modified Eurofighter or the Future Combat Air System (FCAS).


Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 00:36
by marsavian
Apparently in the latest German defense budget funds have been allocated to replace the 33 Tranche 1 Typhoons over the next ten years with new Tranche 3 models which will keep the production line open to 2029. IMO this now puts less economic pressure on the Luftwaffe to pick the Typhoon for the specific Tornado replacement perhaps seriously opening up the field for the F-35 again.

https://mobile.twitter.com/WachterBDI/s ... 04385?s=20
https://augengeradeaus.net/2018/11/aufg ... oeglichen/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 15:33
by mixelflick
And this my friends, is the saddest passage in that long, long story...

"When the F / A-18 was introduced to the USN, it lacked the range and payload of the A-7 Corsair and the acceleration and climb rate of the F-4 Phantom, Today, the F / A-18 is the backbone of the USN."

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 18:55
by geforcerfx
mixelflick wrote:And this my friends, is the saddest passage in that long, long story...

"When the F / A-18 was introduced to the USN, it lacked the range and payload of the A-7 Corsair and the acceleration and climb rate of the F-4 Phantom, Today, the F / A-18 is the backbone of the USN."

Again with this :bang:

The F/A-18 had no need for the speed and climb rate of the F-4, which was built as a interceptor and evolved into a lackluster fighter/bomber. The F-18 was built as a advanced fighter bomber, and since the Navy was gaining fighters they were willing to make the trade on range at the mid weight strike platform. They got the same range as the F-4 for strike, but got even more advanced features than the A-7 for strike, and they could escort themselves. The F-14 was the fleet interceptor the A-6 was the long range strike, the hornet fit just fine. The Hornets on ship today are a completely different breed, operating in a completely different threat environment (who needs high speed intercept when you can see the enemy from 500 miles out), and that environment has dictated what is most important specs wise(strike). The weapons and sensors in the fleet for both air and surface are light years ahead and have allowed the fleet to drop down to less aircraft types and keep most of there capability. Bad funding decisions, delays in programs (F-35), congressional mandates(zumwalt) have lead to the shortfall in Navair's capabilities, not the hornet.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 19:03
by sferrin
geforcerfx wrote:
mixelflick wrote:And this my friends, is the saddest passage in that long, long story...

"When the F / A-18 was introduced to the USN, it lacked the range and payload of the A-7 Corsair and the acceleration and climb rate of the F-4 Phantom, Today, the F / A-18 is the backbone of the USN."

Again with this :bang:

The F/A-18 had no need for the speed and climb rate of the F-4, which was built as a interceptor and evolved into a lackluster fighter/bomber.


You do realize the F-4 set the standard for years right?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 13 Nov 2018, 20:11
by lbk000
Faffing off about superlatives is a vice of us spectators. The real use of "best" is in making the best out of what you got on hand.

The Israelis certainly cared not about the lack of sophisticated, precision A-G capabilities when mounting the Osirak reactor raid.
For the Navy, the F-4 was adequate for its time, and the FA-18 was likewise adequate in its turn.
"Good enough" is all you need to win. So, big deal.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Nov 2018, 02:54
by geforcerfx
sferrin wrote:You do realize the F-4 set the standard for years right?


True, but it lagged considerably in strike features compared to the A-6, A-7, F-111. The F/A-18 set the 4th gen standard for multi-role, everything else played catch up for a decade.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 23 Nov 2018, 05:24
by spazsinbad
Germany Sees Next Step on Fighter Jet Replacement by End of Year
22 Nov 2018 Andrea Shalal

"BERLIN (Reuters) - The German defense ministry expects to announce next steps by the end of the year in its drive to replace 85 aging Tornado fighter jets that will cost billions of euros. "There will be a decision this year," a ministry spokesman said, citing a pledge in July by Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen to move ahead with the program in 2018. The spokesman gave no further details....

..."It's another step in the process, not the actual procurement decision," said one of the sources, noting that funds would first have to be earmarked in the German budget.... [SOB] :cry:

...Buying F-35s would allow Germany to keep a mixed fleet of fighter jets, a requirement in its military strategy, while averting costly modifications to the Eurofighter.

Two of the sources said Germany had not yet commissioned a mandatory U.S. study of the certification issue, which could take 12 to 18 months to complete. Achieving certification for the Eurofighter could ultimately cost over 700 million euros and take well over seven years, they added.

Lockheed last week won a U.S. contract valued at up to $83.1 million to develop, integrate and test the needed software and hardware required for the F-35A to carry B61-12 nuclear bombs, with the work to be completed in February 2024.
Sources familiar with the process said that would allow Lockheed to offer Germany deliveries of F-35 aircraft a year or more ahead of the 2025 target, enabling pilots to begin a year or two of required training at a U.S. air base in Arizona."

Source: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... nd-of-year

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2018, 21:08
by laos
The question of modifying Typhoon to deliver nuclear bombs is a little puzzling to me. Why to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to have the theoretical capability. Germany can’t deliver them without permission from USA. If USA make decision to conduct nuclear strike, it will be able to do it using it’s own aircrafts based in Europe. I have difficulty to image a scenario with German government that hate nuclear energy, is afraid of CO2 in atmosphere and calls Russia a responsible and vital partner to give order to fly nuclear strike mission. Against who ?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 26 Nov 2018, 21:26
by botsing
laos wrote:I have difficulty to image a scenario with German government that hate nuclear energy, is afraid of CO2 in atmosphere and calls Russia a responsible and vital partner to give order to fly nuclear strike mission. Against who ?

Germany is part of the NATO nuclear weapons sharing agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing

Germany also has the ability to quickly manufacture it's own nuclear weapons. Nuclear deterrence is an important doctrine, especially with an unreliable country such as Russia nearby.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 03:03
by marsavian
This from the earlier usnews link looks the more probable outcome as I can't see the Germans wasting their time and money on Typhoon nuclear certification when F-35 is having it done anyway and is clearly the more deterrent delivery platform being so stealthy and as long some Typhoons are still bought that does its bit for European military industry solidarity. The nuclear requirement gives the Germans an excuse to at least slip some F-35 in under the nose of the disapproving French ;).

One proposal calls for Germany to buy 45 Lockheed F-35 jets to replace those Tornados, and about 75 new Eurofighters to replace both the other Tornados and a first batch of Eurofighters delivered between 2003 and 2008, sources said.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 09:44
by hythelday
marsavian wrote:This from the earlier usnews link looks the more probable outcome as I can't see the Germans wasting their time and money on Typhoon nuclear certification when F-35 is having it done anyway and is clearly the more deterrent delivery platform being so stealthy and as long some Typhoons are still bought that does its bit for European military industry solidarity. The nuclear requirement gives the Germans an excuse to at least slip some F-35 in under the nose of the disapproving French ;).

One proposal calls for Germany to buy 45 Lockheed F-35 jets to replace those Tornados, and about 75 new Eurofighters to replace both the other Tornados and a first batch of Eurofighters delivered between 2003 and 2008, sources said.


Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact both Britain and Germany need to buy T3 Typhoons to replace T1 Typhoons delivered 15 years ago? And to think that Eurofighter has the balls to suggest it will be relevant against "2060 threats"

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 09:52
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:
Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact both Britain and Germany need to buy T3 Typhoons to replace T1 Typhoons delivered 15 years ago? And to think that Eurofighter has the balls to suggest it will be relevant against "2060 threats"



Politics is pretty much the same the world over.....(sadly) :?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 09:58
by weasel1962
hythelday wrote:Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact both Britain and Germany need to buy T3 Typhoons to replace T1 Typhoons delivered 15 years ago? And to think that Eurofighter has the balls to suggest it will be relevant against "2060 threats"


Don't think the Brits will be buying T3s to replace their T1s. The Typhoons will be relevant against the Argie A-4s that will still be flying in 2060.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 10:18
by Corsair1963
Let's hope the F-35 replaces the majority of the Tornados. (85 aircraft) While, Tranche 1's (33 aircraft) are replaced by the New Tranche 3 Typhoons. Not that I am holding my breathe...........

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 12:21
by marsavian
weasel1962 wrote:
hythelday wrote:Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact both Britain and Germany need to buy T3 Typhoons to replace T1 Typhoons delivered 15 years ago? And to think that Eurofighter has the balls to suggest it will be relevant against "2060 threats"


Don't think the Brits will be buying T3s to replace their T1s. The Typhoons will be relevant against the Argie A-4s that will still be flying in 2060.


Indeed the RAF are keeping all their T1 single seaters for QRA purposes and equipping two new distinct squadrons. The twin seaters have been reduced to spares and scrap. No doubt these T1 single-seaters will be the first to be replaced by Tempest in about 15-20 years.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 14:22
by spazsinbad
weasel1962 wrote:
hythelday wrote:Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact both Britain and Germany need to buy T3 Typhoons to replace T1 Typhoons delivered 15 years ago? And to think that Eurofighter has the balls to suggest it will be relevant against "2060 threats"


Don't think the Brits will be buying T3s to replace their T1s. The Typhoons will be relevant against the Argie A-4s that will still be flying in 2060.

Ahem. According to WickedPedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_ ... ghtinghawk
"...In January 2016, Argentine Minister of Defence Julio Martinez confirmed that all Air Force Lockheed Martin A-4AR Skyhawk (Fightinghawk) fighters were grounded. Originally this was due to the expiry of the explosive cartridges in their ejection seats, but later it became apparent that there were additional problems. In any case only 4-5 were airworthy with the rest in storage at Villa Reynolds...."

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 15:12
by marsavian
Sheesh, they don't have any Mirages left either. Do they plan to invade Falklands again with 27 Pucaras now or have they given up on their land grab plans ;).

List_of_active_aircraft_of_the_Argentine_Air_Force

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _Air_Force

Image

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 15:25
by ricnunes
Don't cry for me Argentina, the truth is... :mrgreen:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 15:27
by marsavian
Anyway there are 4 Typhoons with a Voyager tanker waiting for them anytime they are feeling lucky ;).

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 16:47
by SpudmanWP
hythelday wrote:Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact both Britain and Germany need to buy T3 Typhoons to replace T1 Typhoons delivered 15 years ago?

Now I can really appreciate the design choices made in the F-35 so that even Block 2 jets can be easily ungraded for the next 30+ years.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 27 Nov 2018, 19:10
by hythelday
marsavian wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:
hythelday wrote:Can we take a moment to appreciate the fact both Britain and Germany need to buy T3 Typhoons to replace T1 Typhoons delivered 15 years ago? And to think that Eurofighter has the balls to suggest it will be relevant against "2060 threats"


Don't think the Brits will be buying T3s to replace their T1s. The Typhoons will be relevant against the Argie A-4s that will still be flying in 2060.


Indeed the RAF are keeping all their T1 single seaters for QRA purposes and equipping two new distinct squadrons. The twin seaters have been reduced to spares and scrap. No doubt these T1 single-seaters will be the first to be replaced by Tempest in about 15-20 years.


Hmm, I stand corrected on the all T1 Typhoons part.

However we need to look into the root cause of that decision - it's because T1 Typhoon takes too much effort to overhaul into a multi-role aircraft, isn't it? Thus the single seaters are "relegated" to QRA intercepts over North Sea, at least it is a task Typhoon does really well, perhaps the only thing it does better than F-35.

And with this fact in mind, how should one assess Typhoon's ability to evolve in the future. Countries that chose F-35 now or ten years ago were looking to keep those in service at least until 2060. Do T3 Typhoons have a vastly different and thus more upgrade-able architecture, or maybe more internal space to put more gizmos in?

SpudmanWP wrote:Now I can really appreciate the design choices made in the F-35 so that even Block 2 jets can be easily ungraded for the next 30+ years.



Interesting what will happen to Austria's fleet. I remember news about them having second thoughts about their Eurofighters.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2018, 01:06
by marsavian
Tranche 2/3 Typhoons have the ability to be retrofitted with Captor-E and all other avionics/computing/weapons modifications. Tranche 1 Typhoons are multi-role too but their development has basically been frozen now for some time i.e. they won't have the Meteor or new air to ground weapons upgrade either. I suppose the nearest analogy is the difference between training and production Raptors due to earlier blocks still having initial AESA and avionics. Austria was told what it was getting when it bought the T1, a model with a limited development path.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 28 Nov 2018, 04:54
by XanderCrews
marsavian wrote:Sheesh, they don't have any Mirages left either. Do they plan to invade Falklands again with 27 Pucaras now or have they given up on their land grab plans ;).

List_of_active_aircraft_of_the_Argentine_Air_Force

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... _Air_Force

Image



i can't even imagine how they would try nowadays. Anytime the "malvines" come up I just retort "come take them" and that usually quiets things right down.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 21:11
by talkitron
Germany officially knocks F-35 out of competition to replace Tornado

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... e-tornado/

An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 21:26
by steve2267
Germany to give Canaduh a run for it's money...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 21:35
by sferrin
talkitron wrote:Germany officially knocks F-35 out of competition to replace Tornado

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... e-tornado/

An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet.


I'll bet the German Military loves the hell out of this. /sarc.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 21:36
by steve2267
:doh:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 21:38
by marsavian
So drop the stealthy F-35 which is going to be certified to carry B-61 anyway but still include the not so stealthy F-18 in the competition which will now need certifying to carry the B-61. Why F-18 but not F-35 ? Truly bizarre if it's only European aircraft really wanted unless you wanted a sham competition the Typhoon could win without stretching incredulity !

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKCN1PP2DM

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will choose between the Eurofighter and Boeing’s F/A-18 fighter jet to replace its aging Tornado fighter jets, knocking Lockheed Martin’s F-35 out of a tender worth billions of euros, Defence Ministry sources said on Thursday.

No timetable for a decision was given, but the process could take time since the U.S. government will have to certify both jets to carry the nuclear weapons.

The German air force will also move ahead with long-awaited plans to replace its 33 oldest Eurofighter jets, now used mainly for air policing or training, with new, more capable Eurofighters in coming years, the sources said.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 22:04
by steve2267
Germany already gave up it's nuclear powerplant capacity. Kind of gave the country over to the whims of the Russian bear's whims with regard to energy supply. Could this be foreshadowing that Germany is going to give up her silver bullets? Hard to believe they would do so, when their French neighbors retain their capability.

Sell the F-35A to Poland. Give her the B61s under the same sort of arrangement as Belgium, the Netherlands etc. On the other hand... if that makes Putin apoplectic and pushes the bear over the edge... maybe not such a good idea. F-35s for Poland I still like.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 22:55
by citanon
marsavian wrote: Truly bizarre if it's only European aircraft really wanted unless you wanted a sham competition the Typhoon could win without stretching incredulity !


DING DING DING we have a winner! :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 23:41
by hythelday
Countdown to Germans requesting B-61s to be removed has started.

It actually is a good thing. Seeing how Bundeswehr is run into the ground by the politicians even at the times of "increased defense spending", thank goodness they won't tarnish F-35 reputation by maintaining its mission readiness at a single digit percent availability and NOT deploying it when the situation calls for.

Let them eat some more "Raptor salad". Goes down well with Nord Stream 3 sh*t sammich.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 00:16
by archeman
I found this quote to be the most compelling of all the arguments put forward in the news piece:

"Paris, Germany’s closest European partner, had warned that buying the F-35 in particular could derail plans to develop a new Franco-German fighter by 2040."


It would be very difficult for the French to believe that their partner Germany was really "in" on their co-development project while also purchasing a system that offered about 75% overlap in capabilities. The ystème de Combat Aérien du Future (SCAF)/Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program absolutely needs a partner and watching Germany buy F-35s.......

The Warnings from Paris must have been very serious indeed.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 01:11
by sferrin
archeman wrote:I found this quote to be the most compelling of all the arguments put forward in the news piece:

"Paris, Germany’s closest European partner, had warned that buying the F-35 in particular could derail plans to develop a new Franco-German fighter by 2040."


Well that IS the reason Bill Sweetman has been hyperventilating about the F-35 for the last decade. He was completely convinced that if the F-35 succeeded it would destroy Europe's ability to build a fighter aircraft, and he's a Euro so. . ..

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 01:13
by vilters
Politics, politics, politics.

Did they learn nothing??

NH-90 = a disaster with a capital D => Not a single customer is happy with their NH-90. None of them.
AM-400 = Just wait, and wait some more, then find out it is a disaster (Should have bought C-130 and be happy ever after)

Tornado and Tiffy, both complete, even more then complete military failures.

Tornado's had to ask ATC to get the Migs flying lower and slower so they could escort them. How crazy can it get???

Tiffy's reliability is so good, pilots have to fight for a flyable jet to get their NATO required flight hrs. Does a relatively good Job in A2A but absolutely sucks in A2G.

Politics, not an enemy, but politics will defeat Europe (or what's left of it.)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 02:22
by spazsinbad
Found this article on another website so all that is here is what is there and I have no subscription to 'Financial Times'.
Germany opts against buying American F-35 stealth fighter
I guess today 01 Feb 2019 FT

Berlin cuts options for replacing Tornado fleet down to Eurofighter or US F-18. The German defence ministry has decided not to buy the F-35 stealth fighter as a replacement for the country’s ageing Tornado fleet, and is instead looking at acquiring either more Eurofighters from Airbus or the Boeing-made F-18.

A final decision has yet to be made, defence officials said in Berlin on Thursday evening, but the ministry has now effectively narrowed down the choice from four planes to two. Aside from the Eurofighter, the F-35 and the F-18, Germany had initially also considered the F-15 as a possible Tornado replacement. Both the F-35, made by Lockheed Martin, and the F-15, also made by Boeing, have now dropped out of the race. The German defence ministry will now seek more precise information regarding the two remaining planes from Boeing and from Airbus, officials said.

The decision to narrow down the choice to the Eurofighter and the F-18 reflects careful political calculations — and the desire in Berlin to balance competing demands from two of its closest allies: the US and France. A move to replace at least part of the Tornado fleet with an American-made plane would be certain to please the US government, which has long clamoured for Germany to raise its defence spending and lobbied hard in favour of a US jet.

France, on the other hand, is understood to have argued strongly against a German acquisition of the F-35, which is widely seen as the most advanced of the four jets on offer and could have served German military needs for years to come. According to defence analysts, buying the older F-18 poses much less of a threat to Franco-German plans to build a super-modern next-generation “Future Combat Air System” after 2035.

It is still possible that the German defence ministry will decide to shun the F-18 and buy only the Eurofighter. That is the solution favoured by key members of parliament, especially those from the Social Democratic party, the junior partner in Angela Merkel’s coalition government. But such a move would raise immediate questions over Germany’s ability to participate in Nato’s “nuclear-sharing” arrangement, whereby US nuclear weapons are kept on European bases, ready for deployment by European planes. In the case of Germany, that task is currently performed by Tornado planes, which means any replacement needs to be technically capable as well as certified by the US to carry American nuclear warheads.

Some analysts doubt the Eurofighter could win that certification before the 85-strong Tornado fleet is phased out, a process that is expected to start in 2025. In the case of the F-18, there are no such doubts."

Source: https://www.ft.com/content/cb0f12dc-259 ... e6ceb5ffdf

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 02:30
by madrat
Ever since reunification we cannot honestly treat Germany as we did Western Germany. I'm fine if they have no F-35 or anything American.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 03:18
by marauder2048
Some analysts doubt the Eurofighter could win that certification before the 85-strong Tornado fleet is phased out, a process that is expected to start in 2025. In the case of the F-18, there are no such doubts."


Uh..what? A nuclear certified Super Hornet that will exist in an unsupported (by its primary user)
configuration is pretty doubtful in the timeframe.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 04:59
by lbk000
Considering the fearful state their EFs are in, I'm relieved they excused themselves of the F-35.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 06:03
by hb_pencil
So lets all take a breath people and put the pitchforks away?

While industrial considerations are a part of this decision, there's a more important factor that militated towards the Shornet over the F-35: They need to replace the ECR version of the Tornado as well as the IDS. Everybody is looking at the nuclear capability, but forgetting the 18 ECRs that will retire in a decade's time as well. The German government is still looking at 20 years of operations with the Eurofighter: the loss of the ECR will greatly diminish their total force capability, so that's a key consideration. While the F-35 is a powerful capability, its organic concept of operations doesn't fit as well with the entire German Luftwaffe force structure, where they need a dedicating jamming aircraft. Consequently the Super Hornet/Growler capability is more valuable to them than the F-35.

The Eurofighter route will likely see Germans spend money not only on developing a dual key role, but a dedicated jammer, or an upgrade package to increase individual aircraft self protection. This would be in line with their 2016 capability development document that calls for greater flexibility but with fewer platform types. It would also signal their intent to invest in their domestic industry,

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 06:58
by kimjongnumbaun
Eliminating the F-35 from the competition prevents having the F-35 directly compared to any of the other competitors. The Luftwaffe had to problems publicly saying they wanted the F-35. Preventing the F-35 from competing avoids a redux of the Swiss competition where the most capable fighter was passed on because of politics, and the ensuing backlash.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 07:13
by spazsinbad
The last paragraphs from the 'sferrin' post at top of this page posted below for 'surprise for LM & their EW quote' reasons. Now that this post is top of 'next page' go back to previous page for 'cited post' & I'll add some 'more' paras for context....
Germany officially knocks F-35 out of competition to replace Tornado
01 Feb 2019 Sebastian Sprenger

"COLOGNE, Germany ― Germany’s Ministry of Defence has officially ruled out the F-35 joint strike fighter as a choice to replace its aging Tornado fleet, Defense News has learned. An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet. The news was first reported by German site AugenGeradeaus.

The move is not altogether surprising. Berlin for some time has officially favored an upgraded version of the fourth-generation Eurofighter Typhoon, built by a consortium of Airbus, Leonardo and BAE Systems, as the Tornado replacement. The main argument is to keep European companies involved in building combat aircraft and, perhaps even more importantly, staying clear of disturbing Franco-German momentum in armaments cooperation....

...German defense officials on Thursday evening stressed that no decisions had been made besides reducing the playing field to the FA-18 and the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Defense Ministry will request additional information from the respective manufacturers, Boeing and Airbus, on the issues of operations, economic viability and timing, these officials said.

Germany’s decision appears to have come at the surprise of F-35 manufacturer Lockheed Martin, which was not told by the ministry of the imminent announcement.

“We have not been officially notified of a decision on Germany’s future fighter,” Lockheed spokesman Mike Friedman said in an emailed response to a query. “The F-35 delivers unmatched value as the most capable and lowest life-cycle cost aircraft, while delivering the strongest long-term industrial and economic opportunities compared to any fighter on the market. As the foundation of NATO’s next generation of air power, the F-35 is the most advanced aircraft in the world today, and includes Electronic Attack capabilities well beyond any specialized fourth generation aircraft.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... e-tornado/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 08:10
by popcorn
spazsinbad wrote:... As the foundation of NATO’s next generation of air power, the F-35 is the most advanced aircraft in the world today, and includes Electronic Attack capabilities well beyond any specialized fourth generation aircraft.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... e-tornado/
[/quote]


Specialized fourth generation aircraft = Growler?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 08:14
by hornetfinn
hb_pencil wrote:So lets all take a breath people and put the pitchforks away?

While industrial considerations are a part of this decision, there's a more important factor that militated towards the Shornet over the F-35: They need to replace the ECR version of the Tornado as well as the IDS. Everybody is looking at the nuclear capability, but forgetting the 18 ECRs that will retire in a decade's time as well. The German government is still looking at 20 years of operations with the Eurofighter: the loss of the ECR will greatly diminish their total force capability, so that's a key consideration. While the F-35 is a powerful capability, its organic concept of operations doesn't fit as well with the entire German Luftwaffe force structure, where they need a dedicating jamming aircraft. Consequently the Super Hornet/Growler capability is more valuable to them than the F-35.

The Eurofighter route will likely see Germans spend money not only on developing a dual key role, but a dedicated jammer, or an upgrade package to increase individual aircraft self protection. This would be in line with their 2016 capability development document that calls for greater flexibility but with fewer platform types. It would also signal their intent to invest in their domestic industry,


I really doubt that going Eurofighter route will result in any dedicated jammer system that was anywhere near capabilities of Growler or F-35. Just hanging couple of jamming pods under Eurofighter would not be very effective method. Doing EuroGrowler would cost a lot (at least couple of billions) as they would need to develop all the systems from scratch. Growler development was several billion US$ while using existing jamming pods and procurement cost was significantly higher than for regular SH. Many statements have been made that F-35 is equal or superior to current purpose built EW aircraft and far exceeding any other fighter aircraft. Growler is powerful system, but it also needs to sit back much further away than F-35 which can improve EA/EW effectiveness simply by going close to threat radar. Of course F-35 is likely more limited in frequency coverage and is limited to higher frequency radars. But naturally those are also by far the most threatening systems.

Besides, Tornado ECR has rather modest EW capabilties and is very much like F-16CJ or F-4G Wild Weasels. It uses EW pretty much only for self protection and HARMs to shut down enemy radars. In that role F-35 is extremely effective due to SA and stealth giving ability to get much closer to enemy radars. They have proven extremely effective for S/DEAD in excercises already using just JDAMs.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 08:38
by marsavian
So a possible mixed Growler/Typhoon buy where the Growlers are also B-61 carriers and where these Growlers would have CFTs and next gen AESA jamming pods ? It's a plan I suppose which does shield your older less stealthy air force in combat in a different way then having F-35s do it and is politically acceptable to the EU nationalists.The Growlers could then complement SCAF when introduced without publicly embarrassing it. It could fly ;).

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 09:28
by spazsinbad
Why do not the USMC operate Growlers? At moment only USN & RAAF do it; hanging out for the NGJ Next Gen Jammer. Will the US trust German use of current Growler let alone NGJ? Personally I don't care, situation much like Canada I think.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 11:59
by marsavian
Why do not the USMC operate Growlers?


They probably figure the F-35B/C can protect itself and an accompanying Osprey adequately. What a Growler will give you is high power full spherical jamming coverage over all frequencies, so Comms and Datalinks as well as Surveillance/Target radars, whereas the F-35 is limited to the 120 cone of its AESA and a frequency spread centred most powerfully around X-band.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 12:50
by quicksilver
“What a Growler will give you is high power full spherical jamming coverage over all frequencies...”

Ah, no. Recommend you read up a bit on ALQ-99 and NGJ increments. They are neither spherical nor all-frequency.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 19:09
by ricnunes
spazsinbad wrote:The last paragraphs from the 'sferrin' post at top of this page posted below for 'surprise for LM & their EW quote' reasons. Now that this post is top of 'next page' go back to previous page for 'cited post' & I'll add some 'more' paras for context....
Germany officially knocks F-35 out of competition to replace Tornado
01 Feb 2019 Sebastian Sprenger

"COLOGNE, Germany ― Germany’s Ministry of Defence has officially ruled out the F-35 joint strike fighter as a choice to replace its aging Tornado fleet, Defense News has learned. An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet. The news was first reported by German site AugenGeradeaus.


So the only way for the F-35 to "lose" is to be forced out from a competition, LoL.

Anyway, not surprising (at least not to me). Germany would never buy the F-35 basically for the same reasons as France wouldn't also buy the F-35.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2019, 19:53
by hb_pencil
hornetfinn wrote:I really doubt that going Eurofighter route will result in any dedicated jammer system that was anywhere near capabilities of Growler or F-35. Just hanging couple of jamming pods under Eurofighter would not be very effective method. Doing EuroGrowler would cost a lot (at least couple of billions) as they would need to develop all the systems from scratch.


See I think they're probably going to leverage French efforts on the Rafale like SPECTRA and other platforms. This would fit in with their capability development policy they espoused a few years ago and fits neatly as a lead-in to FCAS due to industrial cooperation.

If they go down a pure Eurofighter route, they would probably look less at broad area jamming, and focus more on improving the organic self protection of their Eurofighter aircraft. Is it as effective as F-35? nobody is arguing that, but they're not going to scrap 140+ Eurofighters either, the majority of which are less than five years old. Another option is that they develop some sort of more dedicated system with the French, perhaps focused on NEURON and some other platform.

hornetfinn wrote:Growler development was several billion US$ while using existing jamming pods and procurement cost was significantly higher than for regular SH. Many statements have been made that F-35 is equal or superior to current purpose built EW aircraft and far exceeding any other fighter aircraft. Growler is powerful system, but it also needs to sit back much further away than F-35 which can improve EA/EW effectiveness simply by going close to threat radar. Of course F-35 is likely more limited in frequency coverage and is limited to higher frequency radars. But naturally those are also by far the most threatening systems.


That's not their concept of operation however. They're not going to rely on the F-35 to do everything and leave the rest of their fleet to be useless behind them. They're wedded to their systems of systems approach, and they want to keep Eurofighters viable for as long as possible

hornetfinn wrote:Besides, Tornado ECR has rather modest EW capabilties and is very much like F-16CJ or F-4G Wild Weasels. It uses EW pretty much only for self protection and HARMs to shut down enemy radars. In that role F-35 is extremely effective due to SA and stealth giving ability to get much closer to enemy radars. They have proven extremely effective for S/DEAD in excercises already using just JDAMs.


Sure but they're looking to significantly improve the EW capabilities, thats part of their roadmap.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2019, 19:56
by spazsinbad
Just for the graphic & quotable quote....
Germany eliminates F-35 from Tornado-replacement race
01 Feb 2018 Gareth Jennings

"...The decision to eliminate the F-35 from the proceedings is not altogether surprising, despite the Luftwaffe’s previously disclosed preference for the aircraft. Speaking in late 2017 the former service chief, Lieutenant General Karl Müllner, said “The Luftwaffe considers the F-35’s capability as the benchmark for the selection process for the Tornado replacement, and I think I have expressed myself clearly enough as to what the favourite of the air force is.”"

CGI: "Lockheed Martin had high hopes of selling its F-35 to Germany, and had issued a number of promotional images including the aircraft in Luftwaffe markings. Source: Lockheed Martin via IHS Markit/Gareth Jennings" https://www.janes.com/images/assets/100 ... 4_main.jpg


Source: https://www.janes.com/article/86100/ger ... ement-race

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2019, 21:52
by hythelday
Let me put this out there: significant chance exists that Germans will buy Growlers, but no additional HARM/AARGM.

The pitfall of having a credible fighting force is that you are expected to use it. Berlin isn't interested in that.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2019, 23:03
by popcorn
Strange competition where the lower cost, more capable platform doesn't even make the final cut.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 02 Feb 2019, 23:53
by usnvo
popcorn wrote:Strange competition where the lower cost, more capable platform doesn't even make the final cut.


Not really, there is virtually zero possibility that anything but a Eurofighter derivative will be purchased. It doesn't really matter what the Luftwaffe wants (witness their abysmal readiness), it is all about industrial considerations. The MoD has pretty much said as much. Any non-Eurofighter competitor is largely in the competition to get Airbus to give them the best deal possible, although that will still be very expensive since they know they will get the contract in the end.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 00:31
by madrat
What about an F-15G built strictly for their needs? European partner for the ECCM/EW suite. Maybe even offer non-AESA radar.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 01:07
by ricnunes
usnvo wrote:
popcorn wrote:Strange competition where the lower cost, more capable platform doesn't even make the final cut.


Not really, there is virtually zero possibility that anything but a Eurofighter derivative will be purchased. It doesn't really matter what the Luftwaffe wants (witness their abysmal readiness), it is all about industrial considerations. The MoD has pretty much said as much. Any non-Eurofighter competitor is largely in the competition to get Airbus to give them the best deal possible, although that will still be very expensive since they know they will get the contract in the end.


Yes, I fully agree with the above.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 05:03
by lbk000
The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 06:05
by sprstdlyscottsmn
That is more or less how I saw it. They will choose the Tiffy, even though they are, what, 4 for 150 with them?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 14:35
by hythelday
madrat wrote:What about an F-15G built strictly for their needs? European partner for the ECCM/EW suite. Maybe even offer non-AESA radar.


Nonsense.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 15:13
by f4u7_corsair
lbk000 wrote:The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.

Finally someone who understands that national and international security are not open and perfect markets.

But there's only Americans to believe that you can sell them a tool supporting American (declining) hegemony without other countries having their word.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 16:26
by element1loop
f4u7_corsair wrote:
lbk000 wrote:The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.

Finally someone who understands that national and international security are not open and perfect markets.

But there's only Americans to believe that you can sell them a tool supporting American (declining) hegemony without other countries having their word.



:roll: I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through European minds.

Yes, the US mil should have built something more to Justine and murky's liking, then more people would 'like' the USA, and everything would be all the more fabulous.

:mrgreen:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 16:39
by ricnunes
element1loop wrote: :roll: I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through European minds.


I'll correct it for you:
I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through French and German minds.


I believe that we should start distinguishing that French and German don't represent the "whole European" concept.
A small example, related to the F-35:
- Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and the UK are all European countries but they chose the F-35 and as such don't follow that "Franco-German" mindset.

:wink:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 17:15
by element1loop
Sorry ric ... some European minds ... 8)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 18:28
by ricnunes
element1loop wrote:Sorry ric ... some European minds ... 8)


No problem element1loop :mrgreen:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 20:16
by lbk000
ricnunes wrote:- Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and the UK are all European countries but they chose the F-35 and as such don't follow that "Franco-German" mindset.

They just lack ambition. :wink:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 21:10
by bumtish
Belgium, Denmark, Norway, etc. are not stakeholders of significance in any fighter programme. They can pick the best deal in town.

As long as the motivation for the EF and Rafale programs only makes sense to Germany and France, then it remains their projects and planes.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 22:14
by magitsu
Obviously rigged, but quite expected. After F-35A with German requirements probably F-16V would make the most sense for such a small buy. Now they either extend Tornado in the nuclear role until 2035, which would cost 8 billion according to Luftwaffe, or have a harrowing B61-12 integration experience. Even for F-35A Block 4 it will take from April 2019 to October 2024. They might end up needing that Tornado extension. https://www.news.com.au/technology/inno ... 458c832d63

Their 33 Tranche 1 replacement Typhoons seem quite affordable. 100 million euros each. Though obviously they are a bit cheaper to buy due to them having the simulators etc. already, unlike for a completely new fighter. https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/mi ... er,RGoPe1f

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 01:35
by element1loop
The idea they would pass on full 5th-gen airforce integration and to gaining experience with VLO, and its tactical benefits, to keep Tornado for 8 billion (euros?) or go for more EFs ... is bananas. One squadron of F-35A is going to ruin all European [French] aerospace and fighter development potential forever? ... what a circus.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 02:25
by madrat
They could save a fortune just converting Typhoon new builds over either Tranche 1 Typhoon or the obsolete Tornado.

Until Germany gets back in line as an ally, let's just do ourselves a favor and keep Germany nuclear free. We can replace the relationship with cooperation with Poland.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 04:46
by h-bomb
madrat wrote:They could save a fortune just converting Typhoon new builds over either Tranche 1 Typhoon or the obsolete Tornado.

Until Germany gets back in line as an ally, let's just do ourselves a favor and keep Germany nuclear free. We can replace the relationship with cooperation with Poland.


Umm "Nuclear free" since when? "Lend a Nuke", confirmed weapons are in Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and Turkey. They all have B61s. Personally I think they need to remove them from Turkey.

Does anyone have an reference that the Super Hornet was B61 certified? I know the legacy Hornets and F-35 are both supposed to be B61 certified. But I have never read that the Super Hornet was tested. Given the politics of the 1990's I could see that being skipped for cost reasons. I cannot even guess what it would cost to certify the Eurofighter.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 05:50
by steve2267
Offer the F-35 to Poland and Hungary. If they buy, then move the B61s from Germany to Poland, and from Turkey to Hungary. Problem solved. :beer:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 13:11
by hornetfinn
hb_pencil wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I really doubt that going Eurofighter route will result in any dedicated jammer system that was anywhere near capabilities of Growler or F-35. Just hanging couple of jamming pods under Eurofighter would not be very effective method. Doing EuroGrowler would cost a lot (at least couple of billions) as they would need to develop all the systems from scratch.


See I think they're probably going to leverage French efforts on the Rafale like SPECTRA and other platforms. This would fit in with their capability development policy they espoused a few years ago and fits neatly as a lead-in to FCAS due to industrial cooperation.

If they go down a pure Eurofighter route, they would probably look less at broad area jamming, and focus more on improving the organic self protection of their Eurofighter aircraft. Is it as effective as F-35? nobody is arguing that, but they're not going to scrap 140+ Eurofighters either, the majority of which are less than five years old. Another option is that they develop some sort of more dedicated system with the French, perhaps focused on NEURON and some other platform.

hornetfinn wrote:Growler development was several billion US$ while using existing jamming pods and procurement cost was significantly higher than for regular SH. Many statements have been made that F-35 is equal or superior to current purpose built EW aircraft and far exceeding any other fighter aircraft. Growler is powerful system, but it also needs to sit back much further away than F-35 which can improve EA/EW effectiveness simply by going close to threat radar. Of course F-35 is likely more limited in frequency coverage and is limited to higher frequency radars. But naturally those are also by far the most threatening systems.


That's not their concept of operation however. They're not going to rely on the F-35 to do everything and leave the rest of their fleet to be useless behind them. They're wedded to their systems of systems approach, and they want to keep Eurofighters viable for as long as possible

hornetfinn wrote:Besides, Tornado ECR has rather modest EW capabilties and is very much like F-16CJ or F-4G Wild Weasels. It uses EW pretty much only for self protection and HARMs to shut down enemy radars. In that role F-35 is extremely effective due to SA and stealth giving ability to get much closer to enemy radars. They have proven extremely effective for S/DEAD in excercises already using just JDAMs.


Sure but they're looking to significantly improve the EW capabilities, thats part of their roadmap.


But F-35 would provide all those EW/EA and support capabilities today and without added costs.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/f35_arti ... tem_id=182

“This jet isn’t just about the weapons — it’s a game-changing capability. The Tornado GR.4 can't just stroll into a double digit SAM MEZ [Missile Engagement Zone]. In the F-35 I can generate a wormhole in the airspace and lead everyone through it. There isn’t another platform around that can do that. This isn’t all about height and supercruise speed — it’s the ability to not be seen,” added Beck.


or this:
viewtopic.php?t=54012

To make this happen, we planned to initially use electronic attack against the adversary F-16s, see if we could avoid having them detect friendly fighters and datalink the location of the hostile aircraft to our F-16s. This way we could use the F-16s on our side to shoot down the initial wave of enemy fighters and keep our own missiles available once the ‘Blue Air’ F-16s had to focus on their target attack. The plan worked flawlessly.

‘In the debrief ‘Niki’ told us it was one of the most memorable sorties he had ever flown. Having previously worked in the F-35 program office he was elated to find out how effective the F-35 was, but at the same time he was frustrated by not getting a single shot off the rail against us, while getting killed multiple times. After that sortie it really hit us that the F-35 was going to make a big difference in how we operate fighters and other assets in the Royal Netherlands Air Force.’...


This sound a lot like F-35 would be a real force multiplier even for Luftwaffe with their Eurofighters. Sure improving self protection systems would help them survive, but not in the same way using F-35 would. This is because F-35 can get a lot closer to enemy radars and jam/spoof them instead of relying on self-protection system which has a lot lower effective radiated power on enemy radars.

Sure they will have to use different methods when they choose to buy more Eurofighters (or Super Hornets) and those methods are likely less effective in more demanding situations than combination of F-35s and Eurofighters. Of course Eurofighter would be fine in many missions, since I doubt Germans are going to use them for much besides air policing and DCA missions. In more demanding situations they probably will get the support they need from the Dutch, Belgians and Italians...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 23:06
by ricnunes
lbk000 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:- Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and the UK are all European countries but they chose the F-35 and as such don't follow that "Franco-German" mindset.

They just lack ambition. :wink:


LoL :mrgreen:


hornetfinn wrote:Of course Eurofighter would be fine in many missions, since I doubt Germans are going to use them for much besides air policing and DCA missions. In more demanding situations they probably will get the support they need from the Dutch, Belgians and Italians...


I also think that's exactly the point. The fact is that (if I'm not mistaken) the Germans never deployed combat aircraft abroad into actual combat areas/zones (which the NATO Baltic Air Policing missions are not) with the exception of a "one-time" deployment of Tornado ECRs over Syria which only performed recon missions (with no actual weapons being fired from these aircraft).

I also think that all this is rigged in favor of the Typhoon with the Super Hornet now being a "smokescreen".

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 03:48
by Corsair1963
"COLOGNE, Germany ― Germany’s Ministry of Defence has officially ruled out the F-35 joint strike fighter as a choice to replace its aging Tornado fleet, Defense News has learned. An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet. The news was first reported by German site AugenGeradeaus.


Clearly, Germany has no attention of holding a "open and transparent fighter competition". Something many of her Allies won't be to happy to hear.
:|

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 15:06
by mixelflick
Quite disappointing, I expected more from the Germans...

They're going to put Eurofighter pilots into harms way, and more than a few might possibly die because a decision was made on national pride vs. the facts. The F-35 with nukes is a terrifying prospect - for Russia/the enemy, and now they're going to have an opportunity to deny NATO's ability to employ tactical nukes.

Sad, sad day for the Luftwaffe.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 15:57
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:Quite disappointing, I expected more from the Germans...

They're going to put Eurofighter pilots into harms way


:shock: When and where?

The first and last time Luftwaffe employed weapons in combat since WWII was in 1999 - ECR Tornadoes shooting HARMs.

Gulf War - nothing.
1995 Yugoslavia - nothing.
Afghanistan - no EFs, only recce flights by Tornadoes, occasionally.
Iraq - nothing.
Libya - nothing.
CJTF-OIR - they tried to deploy recce Tornadoes once again, but found out they are not NVG compatible. I am not sure they made any more than a handful of token missions.

Baltic Air Police is the closest German Typhoons have come to a military deployment to date, if one fancies to call BAP a military mission.

German civilian leadership is not interested in deploying military forces anywhere, and when they do, they manage to half a$$ that one also.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 17:12
by ricnunes
hythelday wrote:Baltic Air Police is the closest German Typhoons have come to a military deployment to date, if one fancies to call BAP a military mission.

German civilian leadership is not interested in deploying military forces anywhere, and when they do, they manage to half a$$ that one also.


Absolutely.
And again, the "Baltic Air Police" mission is a peacetime operation (and not a wartime one).

Moreover, I remembered of something which I don't know if you'll agree or not regarding this (IMO very stupid) German decision which is:
- The biggest perceived threat to Germany which IMO, comes from Russia.
However as we all know, things are "going south" regarding Russia's more recent and advanced fighter project, the Su-57. So perhaps this was a reason why not long ago Germany seemed quite interested in the F-35 but now apparently is not.
Could this be a reason for it? Could it be that if Russia managed to successfully pull out their Su-57 program that Germany would indeed select the F-35 instead by now?
But I guess that we all know the state of the Russian Su-57 program which means that for Germany the biggest threat from Russia could/would come from Su-35 and Heavy Bombers which means the German (politicians) seem to deem their Typhoon's enough for such task.
Of course that there's also the Russian Air Defense Systems (such as the S-400) but then again Germany doesn't deploy into warzones abroad - so if their stance would be limited to defending their home (Germany) in a case of a conflict with Russia then the threat from Russian Air Defense Systems would basically be nonexistent.
In the process they (Germans) may feel that all of this will give them time to procure a future 5th gen fighter aircraft, namely developing that thing with France which already changed acronyms a few time by now :roll:

Of course that Germany's decision behind all this is stupid and politically driven but I guess that this is the "logic" behind it.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 18:06
by f4u7_corsair
a future 5th gen fighter aircraft, namely developing that thing with France which already changed acronyms a few time by now :roll:

It hasn't.

Also, it is quite savory to see all of you showing remarkably harsh disdain for an otherwise perfectly sovereign and sound decision.

Here is by the way a very instructive account of FCAS SOS implications and projects for existing aircraft (Rafale), the next generation fighter, and associated systems.

https://therestlesstechnophile.com/2019 ... designers/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 18:24
by hythelday
@Ric,

FCAS/SCAF is akin to NATO/OTAN. "English" words such as future, combat and system aren't exactly "English" in origin, so there's little surprise French words begin with same letters, but the acronym is in reverse roman language group order. Of all the things you could attack, this is the least justified. After all, we are using "PAK FA", a Russian term, not english translation of it. I think that it's quite clear that France would be the lead nation and main advocate of SCAF, it is only right that we adopt this name as well.

Regarding F-35 - even if Luftwaffe were to get F-35, they'd still use it a "strike fighter"/Tornado replacement, not air superiority fighter (cause then EF would be out of job). It was a German pilot who coined "Raptor salad" - now do you really think they'd give up Eurofighter's perceived air combat top spot for an F-35? Su-57 had nothing to do with that decision.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 18:48
by marsavian
It's a numbers game, they figure a lot less Growlers can protect a lot more Typhoons electronically, and in future SCAF, plus it can be the nuclear delivery platform, plus the French won't have kittens plus Trump gets pleased for Boeing again, win-win-win-win except for the LMT F-35 and its fans. I suspect given the time scales they will go straight to the new NGJ AESA pods when they come online.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 19:36
by milosh
ricnunes wrote:- The biggest perceived threat to Germany which IMO, comes from Russ


What Russia have to gain in that war? Nothing. In fact Russia need Germany more then Germany need Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see Merkel in board of nord stream 2 as Schröder is in board of Nord Stream.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 21:46
by ricnunes
hythelday wrote:@Ric,

FCAS/SCAF is akin to NATO/OTAN. "English" words such as future, combat and system aren't exactly "English" in origin, so there's little surprise French words begin with same letters, but the acronym is in reverse roman language group order.


Ok, thanks for the correction about FCAS/SCAF (they really mean the same but in different languages).

But what about NGF? This is also an English language acronym and NGF (New Generation Fighter) also represents the acronym for the same thing/project (FCAS), right?


hythelday wrote:Regarding F-35 - even if Luftwaffe were to get F-35, they'd still use it a "strike fighter"/Tornado replacement, not air superiority fighter (cause then EF would be out of job). It was a German pilot who coined "Raptor salad" - now do you really think they'd give up Eurofighter's perceived air combat top spot for an F-35? Su-57 had nothing to do with that decision.


Perhaps yes, perhaps not.
Anyways my perception was because the Germany really seemed interested in the F-35 at some point which was not really long ago, basically months ago (at least the Luftwaffe).
Yes, the main reasons are indeed keeping up the Typhoon production line opened and of course the participation in that NGF/FCAS/whatever project. But couldn't the lack of a/the threat (Su-57) which could surpass the Typhoon be another reason?
Whatever, it doesn't matter much...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 22:41
by ricnunes
milosh wrote:What Russia have to gain in that war? Nothing. In fact Russia need Germany more then Germany need Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see Merkel in board of nord stream 2 as Schröder is in board of Nord Stream.


I'm not saying that there will be necessarily a war and I obviously hope not!

However if a conflict between NATO and Russia happens (again I hope not) don't you think that Germany wouldn't be dragged into it??
And unfortunately there's plenty of situations which could trigger such conflict. Let me give you a hint regarding one of such potential reasons:
It starts with a "U" it ends with "raine" and has a "k" in the middle.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 22:58
by ricnunes
f4u7_corsair wrote:Also, it is quite savory to see all of you showing remarkably harsh disdain for an otherwise perfectly sovereign and sound decision.


And it's funny that when the F-35 wins an actual competition that French guys like yourself claim that the same competition was rigged in favor of the F-35 (like it happened for example in Belgium) but now that the F-35 was removed solely on political basis on Germany (it wasn't even allowed to compete on a technical basis), this is a "perfectly sovereign and sound decision". :doh:

Yeah, you guys are indeed a piece of work.


f4u7_corsair wrote:Here is by the way a very instructive account of FCAS SOS implications and projects for existing aircraft (Rafale), the next generation fighter, and associated systems.

https://therestlesstechnophile.com/2019 ... designers/


Jezz, I'm now so very instructed with the FCAS program that I even noticed that the FCAS is currently made of the same material of that brochure: Paper :roll:
Heck, to be accurate it's not even made of paper - it's composed by a bunch of bytes that composes a .png (or any other format) computer image file...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 23:07
by milosh
ricnunes wrote:
milosh wrote:What Russia have to gain in that war? Nothing. In fact Russia need Germany more then Germany need Russia. I wouldn't be surprised to see Merkel in board of nord stream 2 as Schröder is in board of Nord Stream.


I'm not saying that there will be necessarily a war and I obviously hope not!

However if a conflict between NATO and Russia happens (again I hope not) don't you think that Germany wouldn't be dragged into it??
And unfortunately there's plenty of situations which could trigger such conflict. Let me give you a hint regarding one of such potential reasons:
It starts with a "U" it ends with "raine" and has a "k" in the middle.


Modern politicians don't bother with "what if" especially if that is more fiction then real.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 00:08
by f4u7_corsair
ricnunes wrote:
hythelday wrote:@Ric,

FCAS/SCAF is akin to NATO/OTAN. "English" words such as future, combat and system aren't exactly "English" in origin, so there's little surprise French words begin with same letters, but the acronym is in reverse roman language group order.


Ok, thanks for the correction about FCAS/SCAF (they really mean the same but in different languages).

But what about NGF? This is also an English language acronym and NGF (New Generation Fighter) also represents the acronym for the same thing/project (FCAS), right?

FCAS is the SoS, NGF is the manned aircraft that is part of it.
ricnunes wrote:Jezz, I'm now so very instructed with the FCAS program that I even noticed that the FCAS is currently made of the same material of that brochure: Paper
Heck, to be accurate it's not even made of paper - it's composed by a bunch of bytes that composes a .png (or any other format) computer image file...

You're right about the bytes part, since the NGF, like any modern day project, largely relies on simulation.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 01:21
by usnvo
ricnunes wrote:- The biggest perceived threat to Germany which IMO, comes from Russia.
However as we all know, things are "going south" regarding Russia's more recent and advanced fighter project, the Su-57. So perhaps this was a reason why not long ago Germany seemed quite interested in the F-35 but now apparently is not.
Could this be a reason for it? Could it be that if Russia managed to successfully pull out their Su-57 program that Germany would indeed select the F-35 instead by now?


You are making the mistake of assuming that what the Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe thinks/wants is the same as saying that is what Germany thinks/wants. It is unlikely that the CoS changed his opinion, it was just discounted.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 01:39
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:
:shock: When and where?

The first and last time Luftwaffe employed weapons in combat since WWII was in 1999 - ECR Tornadoes shooting HARMs.

Gulf War - nothing.
1995 Yugoslavia - nothing.
Afghanistan - no EFs, only recce flights by Tornadoes, occasionally.
Iraq - nothing.
Libya - nothing.
CJTF-OIR - they tried to deploy recce Tornadoes once again, but found out they are not NVG compatible. I am not sure they made any more than a handful of token missions.

Baltic Air Police is the closest German Typhoons have come to a military deployment to date, if one fancies to call BAP a military mission.

German civilian leadership is not interested in deploying military forces anywhere, and when they do, they manage to half a$$ that one also.


Then I guess Germany doesn't need a Military??? :doh:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 01:43
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:Quite disappointing, I expected more from the Germans...

They're going to put Eurofighter pilots into harms way, and more than a few might possibly die because a decision was made on national pride vs. the facts. The F-35 with nukes is a terrifying prospect - for Russia/the enemy, and now they're going to have an opportunity to deny NATO's ability to employ tactical nukes.

Sad, sad day for the Luftwaffe.



This is exactly what US President Trump means about some NATO Members not doing their fair share! As much as I hate to agree with him. He has a point in this case.....(sadly)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 14:23
by ricnunes
milosh wrote:Modern politicians don't bother with "what if" especially if that is more fiction then real.


Yeah, you're probably right about politicians don't bothering with potential scenarios (i.e. not planning for eventual future situations) if this is what you meant.
About being "more fiction then real" I sincerely hope that you're right too.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 14:34
by ricnunes
usnvo wrote:You are making the mistake of assuming that what the Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe thinks/wants is the same as saying that is what Germany thinks/wants.


No, I'm not making that mistake. I know the diferences. However the F-35 being being considered together with the Typhoon and the Super Hornet seems IMO to indicate that there was at least a considerably high interest in the F-35 besides the Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe.
Or I could also say that if there wasn't any considerable interest by the Germans regarding the F-35 then the F-35 would never have been considered and none of the many meetings between German officials and LM would never have happened.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 19:24
by spazsinbad
German F-35 decision sacrifices NATO capability for Franco-German industrial cooperation
08 Feb 2019 Hans Binnendijk & Jim Townsend

"While the German decision last week to remove the Lockheed Martin F-35 from consideration as a replacement for 90 aging Tornado fighters solidifies Franco-German industrial cooperation, it could come at the expense of making Germany’s Luftwaffe a less capable air force until at least 2040, when a new advanced Franco-German fighter becomes available.

The decision also places German domestic political considerations ahead of Germany’s leadership role in NATO. This would be understandable for a nation that does not perceive a significant military threat from Russia, but it is disturbing for those who emphasize the need to maximize NATO’s deterrent posture in the East. The decision should be reconsidered.
• After removing the F-35 (and also the older F-15) from consideration, Germany now has three choices. It can augment its planned 177 Eurofighter Typhoon fleet with up to 90 additional Typhoons adapted for suppression of enemy air defense and electronic warfare missions. That fleet of some 267 Typhoons would simplify servicing and training, but it could also ground the entire German fighter fleet should major structural problems appear in the aircraft. The Typhoon has had considerable readiness problems: Germany would be putting all of its fighter eggs in one basket.
• Germany could alternatively buy 90 Boeing F-18s (Super Hornets and Growlers), which is still under active German consideration. That decision would provide better air-to-ground and electronic-warfare capabilities for Germany than the additional Typhoons. But it would still leave Germany behind without a fifth-generation fighter as other allies move onto the future of air power.
• Or Germany could buy some mix of additional Typhoons and F-18s. Today, Germany flies no U.S.-built aircraft, and some observers are betting against the F-18 for that reason.


These three remaining alternatives are all second best from the perspective of maximizing Germany’s air power and its leadership among NATO air forces.

Operationally, the F-35 is by far the best airplane in this mix. It has stealth and battle-management capabilities that are a generation ahead of the Typhoon or F-18. It is a force multiplier that enhances the capabilities of lesser allied aircraft. If the Luftwaffe needs to penetrate heavy air defenses in a future fight, their pilots would be more secure in the F-35. The Luftwaffe without F-35s would be hard-pressed to fight alone in a contested air environment.

Currently eight NATO nations have agreed to purchase the F-35. Those nations will have highly interoperable fifth-generation aircraft. They will provide for the elite fighters in future NATO air-superiority and defense-suppression missions. Without the F-35, Germany will be absent from that elite group, and German pilots would probably be given only secondary missions.

The F-35 also has advantages to perform Germany’s NATO nuclear mission. The ability of the F-35 to penetrate and survive these missions is superior. The F-35 would have been nuclear-certified prior to delivery. Certification for the Typhoon and F-18s would take additional time, money and German political capital. The default position, therefore, might be further life extensions for the old Tornados and further degradation of NATO’s nuclear deterrence.

It is no wonder that the chief of the German Luftwaffe publicly declared his support for the F-35. He was silenced and retired early. So why did German political leaders make this decision?…" [READ WHY? at the URL]

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... operation/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2019, 22:50
by magitsu
Wow, take a look at this. :o
That the F-35 could hardly be beaten in a fair competition is proven by the competitions already held in Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium. The F-35 clearly won in all relevant categories against all European and US competitors, including the Eurofighter.

The performance of the F-35 is undisputed, the operating costs are at a comparable level, especially in the logistical network with the partner nations, and the initial costs are significantly lower than those of a Eurofighter.

-Karl Müllner and Klaus-Peter Stieglitz
The authors are former Chiefs of Staff of the Luftwaffe

(the latter isn't ancient either, there's only one LW chief between them)

This one is also very juicy:
The other two Tornado nations, Britain and Italy, had seen this long ago with far-sightedness and therefore decided to participate in the US Project F-35.


German Defense Policy at a Crossroads: The Tornado Successor Issue
https://sldinfo.com/2019/02/german-defe ... sor-issue/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2019, 03:36
by commisar
We'll see how this goes now that Germany has decided yet again to drop it's planned increase of military spending.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2019, 05:05
by madrat
Let's see, German leadership is heavy in former East German representation, far too much of it with ties to the Stazi. I cannot imagine where the source of the left leaning chaos originates. Even more baffling how a million Turks in Germany is treated so poorly with the long history between the two cultures. Surely there's room for a few more Belt & Road projects in the German spending bills. No worries. 2+2=5.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2019, 03:45
by botsing
madrat wrote:Let's see, German leadership is heavy in former East German representation, far too much of it with ties to the Stazi. I cannot imagine where the source of the left leaning chaos originates. Even more baffling how a million Turks in Germany is treated so poorly with the long history between the two cultures. Surely there's room for a few more Belt & Road projects in the German spending bills. No worries. 2+2=5.

You have a very strange and skewed interpretation of Germany's reality I must say, and your post sounds a lot like some generic conspiracy theory.

May I aks what country you are from and what sources you used to base these rather extreme beliefs on?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2019, 13:28
by madrat
You missed the sarcasm.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2019, 20:47
by botsing
madrat wrote:You missed the sarcasm.

Whoops, let me file a maintenence report for my sarcasm meter. :oops:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 17:40
by commisar
commisar wrote:We'll see how this goes now that Germany has decided yet again to drop it's planned increase of military spending.

Ugh, here they go again. I think Germany will probably end up with a paper airforce at this rate and a Navy only fit for sailing around the English channel. The German Army will have all sorts of new toys that they can only afford tiny amounts of, and the Social Democrats will bar exports to any nation that has the cash for them outside of the EU.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 20:04
by vilters
A little late for April1 but here goes:

Putin attacks Germany,
Mergel opens blouse,
Putin gets heart attack.

Game over, and same player does not shoot again. :devil:
-----------
The only thing Europe has to be scared off is an Erdo-clan-stan infection.
-----------
Euh, and for most of us European old-timers it is GOOD news that Germany is reducing military spending.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 00:42
by hythelday
Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKCN1RM219

The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 16:28
by jurryaany
Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Block III Nuclear Capable by 2025

As the Block III Super HORNET (and incidentally the E/A-18 GROWLER) will be offered to Germany to replace its fleet of aging TORNADOs, Boeing states during the Media tour that, "by 2025 we will have nuclear capability." The German Ministry of Defense is looking at the nonstealthy Eurofighter TYPHOON and F/A-18 Super HORNET and to replace Germany's 90 TORNADO aircraft set to retire in 2035, but the jets will have to carry nuclear weapons. The TYPHOON is not nuclear capable yet ,but a purchase of 45 Super HORNETs could complement 143 TYPHOONs.


https://www.monch.com/mpg/news/air/5450-f18blk3.html

Looks like Boeing is really going for it.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 19:03
by marsavian
F/A-18E/F Super HORNET Block III complements capabilities of E/A-18G & E-2D to optimise carrier air wings with an increased range (via conformal fuel tanks, over the wings in low drag configuration, opening up new weapon stations) and enhanced situational awareness via new advanced glass cockpit systems, flying today with the first Kuwaiti aircraft. Further features include advanced network connectivity via satellite communication (SATCOM), a 9,000 hour airframe and significant reduced signature (lower radar cross section) with coating on few additional hotspots. A common tactical picture is also added, i.e. long wave/range Infrared Search And Track Systems (IRST) (Program of Record independent of Block IIII), Distributed Targeting Processor Network (DTP-N) open architecture, multi-level secure processor and Collins Aerospace's Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) datalink

Two jets are to be delivered this year and, according to Boeing, "all Block IIs will become Block IIIs via an upgrade programme, delivered through 2033; 550 Block IIIs alltogether."


Wasn't the Super Hornet already being portrayed by many here as already highly optimized for LO ? 'Hotspot' does not sound it to me.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 10:42
by ricnunes
marsavian wrote:Wasn't the Super Hornet already being portrayed by many here as already highly optimized for LO ? 'Hotspot' does not sound it to me.


The keyword here is again, PR.

Imagine for instance that the Super Hornet has a RCS of 0.4 square meters but with those improvements that you're mentioning above it will get to lets says 0.2-0.3 square meters. Is this tactically relevant? Perhaps not, or not much.
However if the SH RCS is 0.4 but with Block III it is reduced to 0.3 then Boeing can claim a 25% improvement in terms of RCS. On the other hand if they manage to get as low as 0.2, Boeing can claim a 50% improvement in terms of RCS or resuming reducing the aircraft's RCS to "half".
That's what the Block III RCS "significant" improvements really are.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 15:39
by mixelflick
And is the price for this reduction in RCS really worth it?

That's an interesting question, because when you start hanging bombs, rockets, fuel tanks off of it you wind up with...something that's still going to be an easy target? I realize that the S-300/400/500 may be not all they're cracked up to be, but it would seem to me you either buy real (VLO) stealth... or not.

I suppose only the pilots and a few other choice individuals really know..

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 16:15
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:And is the price for this reduction in RCS really worth it?


Yes, that's the "million dollar question" (for Boeing), isn't it?

IMO, will the extra price for such RCS reductions be tactically relevant?
First, I would say it depends on the amount of that extra cost.
Secondly, if that cost is to be from "quite high" to "very high" then I would say: No, I don't think would be (not much at least).

For example a Radar that can detects a 1 square meter RCS target at 200km, will detect a:
- 0,4 RCS target at 159km
- 0,3 RCS target at 148km
- 0,2 RCS target at 134km

And like you correctly said, when you start hanging bombs, missiles, fuel tanks, etc... than the diferences probably won't matter much, if anything at all.

Now if Boeing gets new Super Hornet customers and/or more Super Hornet purchases due to these RCS reduction measures then that same extra cost will most likely be worth it. However and again, this would be more into the PR realm than into the tactical real (IMO, that is). :wink:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 19:38
by marsavian
Don't forget that the Block III will also incorporate its IRST21 on a centerline fuel tank degrading RCS especially from the side.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 03:22
by usnvo
jurryaany wrote:Looks like Boeing is really going for it.


The article had three comments from Boeing concerning Block III production and modernization and nuclear capable by 2025 (the italicized parts). The balance of the article was just regurgitation of previous comments/claims by the author unrelated to any specific bid. The only new information seems to be the nuclear capability by 2025, the rest is typical Paris (or anywhere else) airshow marketing.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 03:31
by marauder2048
usnvo wrote:The only new information seems to be the nuclear capability by 2025.


And given that nuclear certification is the much longer pole it's not a meaningful date.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 22:20
by loke
marauder2048 wrote:
usnvo wrote:The only new information seems to be the nuclear capability by 2025.


And given that nuclear certification is the much longer pole it's not a meaningful date.

I dont understand what you are trying to say...?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 06:12
by optimist
I really can't see then buying the Super Hornet. They will buy EU to support the industry there. Or the F-35 for a list of reasons, in my mind.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 12:42
by marsavian
Buying the Growler as a dual EW/Nuclear aircraft to replace the Tornadoes currently doing that job is the most likely scenario leaving them to buy normal Typhoons for the rest of their requirements. Agreed the standard Super Hornet does not have much of a chance against the home spun Typhoon but buying Growlers where Boeing have already done the EW/Nuclear work for them would be convenient allowing them to buy local products for everything else and placate the EU lobby. F-35 is politically unwelcome in countries that are doing the NGF/SCAF product as it could potentially limit the domestic need for it.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 12:58
by magitsu
Very reasonable, since Growler's capabilities are in very high demand within the coalition. It offers a way for the Germans to contribute without dropping bombs, which they clearly don't want to do.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 13:07
by ricnunes
Yeah, a nuclear capable Growler would be an interesting choice for Germany since it allows for the replacement of the current nuclear-capable Tornadoes and the Tornado ECR at the same time and with the same airframe/aircraft.

I can see them (Germany) purchasing a handful of Growlers while the remaining order of this new aircraft batch would be composed by new built Typhoons.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 23:00
by usnvo
marauder2048 wrote:
usnvo wrote:The only new information seems to be the nuclear capability by 2025.


And given that nuclear certification is the much longer pole it's not a meaningful date.


The article quotes the Boeing representative as saying "by 2025 we will have nuclear capability." Maybe it is just me, but there seems to be both a question and a dependent clause that is missing before the quote that will add required context to understand what they are saying. For instance.

"How soon can the Super Hornet be nuclear capable?"
"If we could start the certification work tomorrow, by 2025 we will have nuclear capability."

In other words, just a wordy way of saying they project a 6 year certification program.

Or, it could just be a statement such as
"If the Super Hornet is selected, by 2025 we will have nuclear capability."
So they are projecting when they could be nuclear certified if, and only if, they win the contract.

And of course, they could have said something like
"The US Navy has already funded nuclear certification and we have started work on it, by 2025 we will have nuclear capability."
That is clearly the impression the author wanted, but I am not sure that matches up to reality.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2019, 21:38
by marauder2048
I don't believe the Navy has nuclear certified an aircraft since the A-6; the tribal knowledge
on this front is likely completely gone.

It's a different story for the Air Force. But the timelines there are instructive:

If you look at the certification timeline for the F-35 it's ~ 6 years for an aircraft
that was designed from day one to be nuclear capable; the Super Hornet was not.

And that's in conjunction with an NNSA that has the budget and capacity and
has been planning for it for years.

The Air Force/NNSA have done B61-12 System 2 integration on two other
aircraft (F-15E and B-2) so the clean-sheet nuclear certification timeline is founded on
some realism derived from experience.

And the Super Hornet timeline would put it in contention for the resources needed
for B-21 nuclear certification.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2019, 01:40
by usnvo
marauder2048 wrote:I don't believe the Navy has nuclear certified an aircraft since the A-6; the tribal knowledge
on this front is likely completely gone...

...And the Super Hornet timeline would put it in contention for the resources needed
for B-21 nuclear certification.


Agreed, the timeline looks completely unreasonable. That was why I am curious what the qualifier was that wasn't quoted in the article. AFAIK there is no plan for the USN to make the F-18E/F nuclear capable. Given that a nuclear capable F-35C will be available in fairly large numbers (about 1 squadron per airwing by 2027 or so, sooner if they wanted to send the F-35Cs out in 5 plane detachments like EF-18Gs) ), there is just no reason to waste the resources.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 07:32
by doge
It's a composite of various news.
Germany and Canada come again !!!(?) :doh:
http://airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2 ... -Hurt.aspx
Lockheed Exec: With Time, Turkish F-35 Ouster Won’t Hurt
6/13/2019​––JOHN A. TIRPAK
Lockheed Martin is continuously assessing its F-35 supply chain and eyeing potential alternate vendors, for just such a case as Turkey’s expulsion from the multinational program, company executive vice president for aeronautics Michele Evans said on June 13. It’s likely the Turkish eviction won’t have much effect on cost or schedule of the program writ large, she said.

Evans, after a pre-Paris Air Show briefing for defense journalists, told Air Force Magazine, “with time, we can adjust” the F-35 supply chain to account for disruptions such as Turkey’s ouster. “We are always working with our vendors and suppliers, … and looking for the lowest-cost” approach to building the F-35, she said, noting there is a shop at Lockheed whose sole function is to develop production work-arounds in case of an interruption of supply.

“We can’t afford to wait for things like this to happen,” she said. “We have to be ready with something else” to replace lost vendors. The Pentagon plans to “unwind” Turkey from the F-35 program by early 2020, a date set by defense acquisition and sustainment chief Ellen Lord last week, although immediate steps have been taken to lock Turkey out of this week’s F-35 CEO meeting. Turkish pilots and attaché​​​s also must disengage from F-35 training and program work by July 31. Lord said she expects the industrial severance to be complete by the first quarter of 2020, barring a reversal of Turkey’s decision to buy Russia’s S-400 air defense system. The S-400 is “incompatible” with the F-35, Lord said.

Evans insisted the issues regarding Turkey’s exit from the program are “government-to-government” and the company will do as it’s directed. She could not offer any information on what might become of tooling and other F-35 industrial equipment now in Turkey.

In other F-35 news, Evans said Lockheed’s ability to deliver the $80 million unit cost on the strike fighter a year ahead of schedule—based on the recent multi-year contract—is proof the company is investing in production technologies and squeezing vendors to extract all possible savings from the project. “We will not take our foot off the gas,” she said, noting Lockheed hopes to reduce the unit cost even further. The burden of cost reductions isn’t falling only on vendors; Lockheed is working hard to trim its own costs so vendors and subcontractors know the cost reductions are an enterprise-wide demand.

As for sustainment costs, which the military services have identified as their biggest heartache with the F-35, Evans said Lockheed stands behind its goal to get costs per flying hour below $25,000 by 2025, and will meet the Air Force’s goal of spending $4.1 million per tail, per year. She also said that Air Force F-35As at Red Flag exercises recently turned in a 90 percent mission capable rate, while Marine Corps F-35Bs chalked up a 75 percent MC rate on the USS Essex.

Intellectual property rights, often a hangup in previous F-35 negotiations, will be less so in the future, Evans said. While return of value to Lockheed shareholders is important, “IP is not going to be as valuable as it was” in even the recent past, due to the accelerating rate at which software will be revamped and overtaken by events.

Evans said the F-35 was demonstrated in Switzerland on June 12 and Finland on June 13, and a Marine Corps F-35B flew over the White House on June 12 in honor of the Polish president’s visit. Besides those countries, sales prospects again include Canada, and Evans said she hopes Germany will reconsider the F-35. Belgium recently ordered the jet, Japan significantly increased its order, and Singapore will buy a quartet of Lightnings with options for eight more.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 16:07
by loke
doge wrote:It's a composite of various news.
Germany and Canada come again !!!(?) :doh:

Canada is a no-brainer, they will for sure go for the F-35 (they are an F-35 partner!!!). I do not see any Canadian arguments for not going for F-35. It's not like they plan to develop their own 5. gen fighter jet...

I am not so sure about Germany, they do not have the "F-35 partner" situation in addition they will develop a new bird with France and Spain so will most likely stay out of F-35. The only strong argument for F-35 for Germany would be the nuclear thingy -- which is important but at the same time politically sensitive in pacifist Germany...

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 22:49
by vilters
The German aviation industry needs the work and know-how.

From being the smartest and most inventive aircraft and missile Industry before and during WW2, they went downhill to close to nothing except some badly failing programs like Tornado and Tiffy, NH-90 and AM-400, and they don't have the lead in any of those.
Ok, they produce parts, also for Airbus, but so do many other countries.

From aviation super power? They went to by-standers in 50years time.

The German political and financial climate is not ready for them to pick up on aviation any time soon either.

Europe wanting to play the "all smiles and no worries buddy-buddy game", France will take the lead, and the kids will follow if they get a piece of the cake.

PS; No clue how Italy got involved in the F-35 but really?
Nothing good has been coming from Italy the last few decades.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:58
by optimist
I really can't see germany going with the Rhino and Growler. They will go Euro or the F-35. Seeing they have said no to the F-35, that leaves Euro.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 02:00
by Corsair1963
optimist wrote:I really can't see germany going with the Rhino and Growler. They will go Euro or the F-35. Seeing they have said no to the F-35, that leaves Euro.



There was some talk of a mix buy of Typhoons and F-35's. Which, would be a good compromise....

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 05:32
by XanderCrews
loke wrote:
doge wrote:It's a composite of various news.
Germany and Canada come again !!!(?) :doh:

Canada is a no-brainer, they will for sure go for the F-35 (they are an F-35 partner!!!). I do not see any Canadian arguments for not going for F-35. It's not like they plan to develop their own 5. gen fighter jet...

I am not so sure about Germany, they do not have the "F-35 partner" situation in addition they will develop a new bird with France and Spain so will most likely stay out of F-35. The only strong argument for F-35 for Germany would be the nuclear thingy -- which is important but at the same time politically sensitive in pacifist Germany...



What an odd contradiction for a pacifist Germany to insist on developing its own warplanes.

Truly clown world

I'm amazed they have learned anything, but Typhoon II electric boogaloo should be bring some serious laughs.

Over or Under 25 years before full service?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 11:11
by madrat
Germany is soft on Russia, hence they don't feel the need to fight WW3. People forget that after reunification, half the population had been in bed with the Russians. You have to be leary of sharing too much with them any more.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2019, 09:00
by hythelday
"German defense minister wants quick decision on Tornado replacement"

https://www.reuters.com/article/germany ... SL2N26E1ED

Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter - built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA - or Boeing Co’s F/A-18 fighter, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 fighter out of a tender worth billions of euros.

However neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter is currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. Germany is asking Washington to spell out what it will take to get those aircraft certified.
...
But experts say it could take years to get the new planes certified to carry nuclear weapons


(German MoD) Kramp-Karrenbauer said she also had a frank discussion with Esper about Germany’s rejection of the F-35 as a possible replacement for the Tornado jets, given concerns that it could impede work on a Franco-German next-generation combat jet.

We made clear that ... the Future Combat Air System with the French was one of the reasons that ... we had to seek other solutions,” she said, when asked if she ruled out taking another look at the F-35.


First of all, it's genius really. Germany pretends to fulfill it's obligation by sustaining the notion that they are still up for the dual nukes, however instead of the "quick decisions" which the MoD promised they chose a route that "could take years". So they'll still have the nukes but have no means of delivery. They'll also immune to any criticism because they'll excuse themselves with "we do have the means of delivery, but the integration work takes time..." year after year after year.

It's also cool that they officially acknowledge that F-35 was sacked purely because it was seen a reasonable threat to SCAF (and we were told that it was going to be a generation ahead of F-35 and so much better, huh). This also means that allegations that the previous Luftwaffe chief was shown the door purely on political grounds because he opposed "quick decisions" and wanted "the best, now" instead of "maybea little better, 30 years later".

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 25 Sep 2019, 10:15
by element1loop
Poland will have the better air force soon. :mrgreen:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2019, 06:01
by Corsair1963
element1loop wrote:Poland will have the better air force soon. :mrgreen:



It will as soon as the F-35's arrive.... :wink: