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Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 01:21
by usnvo
ricnunes wrote:- The biggest perceived threat to Germany which IMO, comes from Russia.
However as we all know, things are "going south" regarding Russia's more recent and advanced fighter project, the Su-57. So perhaps this was a reason why not long ago Germany seemed quite interested in the F-35 but now apparently is not.
Could this be a reason for it? Could it be that if Russia managed to successfully pull out their Su-57 program that Germany would indeed select the F-35 instead by now?


You are making the mistake of assuming that what the Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe thinks/wants is the same as saying that is what Germany thinks/wants. It is unlikely that the CoS changed his opinion, it was just discounted.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 01:39
by Corsair1963
hythelday wrote:
:shock: When and where?

The first and last time Luftwaffe employed weapons in combat since WWII was in 1999 - ECR Tornadoes shooting HARMs.

Gulf War - nothing.
1995 Yugoslavia - nothing.
Afghanistan - no EFs, only recce flights by Tornadoes, occasionally.
Iraq - nothing.
Libya - nothing.
CJTF-OIR - they tried to deploy recce Tornadoes once again, but found out they are not NVG compatible. I am not sure they made any more than a handful of token missions.

Baltic Air Police is the closest German Typhoons have come to a military deployment to date, if one fancies to call BAP a military mission.

German civilian leadership is not interested in deploying military forces anywhere, and when they do, they manage to half a$$ that one also.


Then I guess Germany doesn't need a Military??? :doh:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 01:43
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:Quite disappointing, I expected more from the Germans...

They're going to put Eurofighter pilots into harms way, and more than a few might possibly die because a decision was made on national pride vs. the facts. The F-35 with nukes is a terrifying prospect - for Russia/the enemy, and now they're going to have an opportunity to deny NATO's ability to employ tactical nukes.

Sad, sad day for the Luftwaffe.



This is exactly what US President Trump means about some NATO Members not doing their fair share! As much as I hate to agree with him. He has a point in this case.....(sadly)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 14:23
by ricnunes
milosh wrote:Modern politicians don't bother with "what if" especially if that is more fiction then real.


Yeah, you're probably right about politicians don't bothering with potential scenarios (i.e. not planning for eventual future situations) if this is what you meant.
About being "more fiction then real" I sincerely hope that you're right too.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 06 Feb 2019, 14:34
by ricnunes
usnvo wrote:You are making the mistake of assuming that what the Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe thinks/wants is the same as saying that is what Germany thinks/wants.


No, I'm not making that mistake. I know the diferences. However the F-35 being being considered together with the Typhoon and the Super Hornet seems IMO to indicate that there was at least a considerably high interest in the F-35 besides the Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe.
Or I could also say that if there wasn't any considerable interest by the Germans regarding the F-35 then the F-35 would never have been considered and none of the many meetings between German officials and LM would never have happened.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 08 Feb 2019, 19:24
by spazsinbad
German F-35 decision sacrifices NATO capability for Franco-German industrial cooperation
08 Feb 2019 Hans Binnendijk & Jim Townsend

"While the German decision last week to remove the Lockheed Martin F-35 from consideration as a replacement for 90 aging Tornado fighters solidifies Franco-German industrial cooperation, it could come at the expense of making Germany’s Luftwaffe a less capable air force until at least 2040, when a new advanced Franco-German fighter becomes available.

The decision also places German domestic political considerations ahead of Germany’s leadership role in NATO. This would be understandable for a nation that does not perceive a significant military threat from Russia, but it is disturbing for those who emphasize the need to maximize NATO’s deterrent posture in the East. The decision should be reconsidered.
• After removing the F-35 (and also the older F-15) from consideration, Germany now has three choices. It can augment its planned 177 Eurofighter Typhoon fleet with up to 90 additional Typhoons adapted for suppression of enemy air defense and electronic warfare missions. That fleet of some 267 Typhoons would simplify servicing and training, but it could also ground the entire German fighter fleet should major structural problems appear in the aircraft. The Typhoon has had considerable readiness problems: Germany would be putting all of its fighter eggs in one basket.
• Germany could alternatively buy 90 Boeing F-18s (Super Hornets and Growlers), which is still under active German consideration. That decision would provide better air-to-ground and electronic-warfare capabilities for Germany than the additional Typhoons. But it would still leave Germany behind without a fifth-generation fighter as other allies move onto the future of air power.
• Or Germany could buy some mix of additional Typhoons and F-18s. Today, Germany flies no U.S.-built aircraft, and some observers are betting against the F-18 for that reason.


These three remaining alternatives are all second best from the perspective of maximizing Germany’s air power and its leadership among NATO air forces.

Operationally, the F-35 is by far the best airplane in this mix. It has stealth and battle-management capabilities that are a generation ahead of the Typhoon or F-18. It is a force multiplier that enhances the capabilities of lesser allied aircraft. If the Luftwaffe needs to penetrate heavy air defenses in a future fight, their pilots would be more secure in the F-35. The Luftwaffe without F-35s would be hard-pressed to fight alone in a contested air environment.

Currently eight NATO nations have agreed to purchase the F-35. Those nations will have highly interoperable fifth-generation aircraft. They will provide for the elite fighters in future NATO air-superiority and defense-suppression missions. Without the F-35, Germany will be absent from that elite group, and German pilots would probably be given only secondary missions.

The F-35 also has advantages to perform Germany’s NATO nuclear mission. The ability of the F-35 to penetrate and survive these missions is superior. The F-35 would have been nuclear-certified prior to delivery. Certification for the Typhoon and F-18s would take additional time, money and German political capital. The default position, therefore, might be further life extensions for the old Tornados and further degradation of NATO’s nuclear deterrence.

It is no wonder that the chief of the German Luftwaffe publicly declared his support for the F-35. He was silenced and retired early. So why did German political leaders make this decision?…" [READ WHY? at the URL]

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... operation/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 15 Feb 2019, 22:50
by magitsu
Wow, take a look at this. :o
That the F-35 could hardly be beaten in a fair competition is proven by the competitions already held in Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands and Belgium. The F-35 clearly won in all relevant categories against all European and US competitors, including the Eurofighter.

The performance of the F-35 is undisputed, the operating costs are at a comparable level, especially in the logistical network with the partner nations, and the initial costs are significantly lower than those of a Eurofighter.

-Karl Müllner and Klaus-Peter Stieglitz
The authors are former Chiefs of Staff of the Luftwaffe

(the latter isn't ancient either, there's only one LW chief between them)

This one is also very juicy:
The other two Tornado nations, Britain and Italy, had seen this long ago with far-sightedness and therefore decided to participate in the US Project F-35.


German Defense Policy at a Crossroads: The Tornado Successor Issue
https://sldinfo.com/2019/02/german-defe ... sor-issue/

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2019, 03:36
by commisar
We'll see how this goes now that Germany has decided yet again to drop it's planned increase of military spending.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2019, 05:05
by madrat
Let's see, German leadership is heavy in former East German representation, far too much of it with ties to the Stazi. I cannot imagine where the source of the left leaning chaos originates. Even more baffling how a million Turks in Germany is treated so poorly with the long history between the two cultures. Surely there's room for a few more Belt & Road projects in the German spending bills. No worries. 2+2=5.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2019, 03:45
by botsing
madrat wrote:Let's see, German leadership is heavy in former East German representation, far too much of it with ties to the Stazi. I cannot imagine where the source of the left leaning chaos originates. Even more baffling how a million Turks in Germany is treated so poorly with the long history between the two cultures. Surely there's room for a few more Belt & Road projects in the German spending bills. No worries. 2+2=5.

You have a very strange and skewed interpretation of Germany's reality I must say, and your post sounds a lot like some generic conspiracy theory.

May I aks what country you are from and what sources you used to base these rather extreme beliefs on?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2019, 13:28
by madrat
You missed the sarcasm.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2019, 20:47
by botsing
madrat wrote:You missed the sarcasm.

Whoops, let me file a maintenence report for my sarcasm meter. :oops:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 17:40
by commisar
commisar wrote:We'll see how this goes now that Germany has decided yet again to drop it's planned increase of military spending.

Ugh, here they go again. I think Germany will probably end up with a paper airforce at this rate and a Navy only fit for sailing around the English channel. The German Army will have all sorts of new toys that they can only afford tiny amounts of, and the Social Democrats will bar exports to any nation that has the cash for them outside of the EU.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 20:04
by vilters
A little late for April1 but here goes:

Putin attacks Germany,
Mergel opens blouse,
Putin gets heart attack.

Game over, and same player does not shoot again. :devil:
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The only thing Europe has to be scared off is an Erdo-clan-stan infection.
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Euh, and for most of us European old-timers it is GOOD news that Germany is reducing military spending.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 00:42
by hythelday
Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKCN1RM219

The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters.