Page 14 of 18

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 05:03
by lbk000
The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 06:05
by sprstdlyscottsmn
That is more or less how I saw it. They will choose the Tiffy, even though they are, what, 4 for 150 with them?

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 14:35
by hythelday
madrat wrote:What about an F-15G built strictly for their needs? European partner for the ECCM/EW suite. Maybe even offer non-AESA radar.


Nonsense.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 15:13
by f4u7_corsair
lbk000 wrote:The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.

Finally someone who understands that national and international security are not open and perfect markets.

But there's only Americans to believe that you can sell them a tool supporting American (declining) hegemony without other countries having their word.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 16:26
by element1loop
f4u7_corsair wrote:
lbk000 wrote:The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.

Finally someone who understands that national and international security are not open and perfect markets.

But there's only Americans to believe that you can sell them a tool supporting American (declining) hegemony without other countries having their word.



:roll: I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through European minds.

Yes, the US mil should have built something more to Justine and murky's liking, then more people would 'like' the USA, and everything would be all the more fabulous.

:mrgreen:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 16:39
by ricnunes
element1loop wrote: :roll: I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through European minds.


I'll correct it for you:
I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through French and German minds.


I believe that we should start distinguishing that French and German don't represent the "whole European" concept.
A small example, related to the F-35:
- Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and the UK are all European countries but they chose the F-35 and as such don't follow that "Franco-German" mindset.

:wink:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 17:15
by element1loop
Sorry ric ... some European minds ... 8)

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 18:28
by ricnunes
element1loop wrote:Sorry ric ... some European minds ... 8)


No problem element1loop :mrgreen:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 20:16
by lbk000
ricnunes wrote:- Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and the UK are all European countries but they chose the F-35 and as such don't follow that "Franco-German" mindset.

They just lack ambition. :wink:

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 21:10
by bumtish
Belgium, Denmark, Norway, etc. are not stakeholders of significance in any fighter programme. They can pick the best deal in town.

As long as the motivation for the EF and Rafale programs only makes sense to Germany and France, then it remains their projects and planes.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 22:14
by magitsu
Obviously rigged, but quite expected. After F-35A with German requirements probably F-16V would make the most sense for such a small buy. Now they either extend Tornado in the nuclear role until 2035, which would cost 8 billion according to Luftwaffe, or have a harrowing B61-12 integration experience. Even for F-35A Block 4 it will take from April 2019 to October 2024. They might end up needing that Tornado extension. https://www.news.com.au/technology/inno ... 458c832d63

Their 33 Tranche 1 replacement Typhoons seem quite affordable. 100 million euros each. Though obviously they are a bit cheaper to buy due to them having the simulators etc. already, unlike for a completely new fighter. https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/mi ... er,RGoPe1f

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 01:35
by element1loop
The idea they would pass on full 5th-gen airforce integration and to gaining experience with VLO, and its tactical benefits, to keep Tornado for 8 billion (euros?) or go for more EFs ... is bananas. One squadron of F-35A is going to ruin all European [French] aerospace and fighter development potential forever? ... what a circus.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 02:25
by madrat
They could save a fortune just converting Typhoon new builds over either Tranche 1 Typhoon or the obsolete Tornado.

Until Germany gets back in line as an ally, let's just do ourselves a favor and keep Germany nuclear free. We can replace the relationship with cooperation with Poland.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 04:46
by h-bomb
madrat wrote:They could save a fortune just converting Typhoon new builds over either Tranche 1 Typhoon or the obsolete Tornado.

Until Germany gets back in line as an ally, let's just do ourselves a favor and keep Germany nuclear free. We can replace the relationship with cooperation with Poland.


Umm "Nuclear free" since when? "Lend a Nuke", confirmed weapons are in Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and Turkey. They all have B61s. Personally I think they need to remove them from Turkey.

Does anyone have an reference that the Super Hornet was B61 certified? I know the legacy Hornets and F-35 are both supposed to be B61 certified. But I have never read that the Super Hornet was tested. Given the politics of the 1990's I could see that being skipped for cost reasons. I cannot even guess what it would cost to certify the Eurofighter.

Re: The Germans are coming!

Unread postPosted: 04 Feb 2019, 05:50
by steve2267
Offer the F-35 to Poland and Hungary. If they buy, then move the B61s from Germany to Poland, and from Turkey to Hungary. Problem solved. :beer: