The Germans are coming!

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spazsinbad

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 07:13

The last paragraphs from the 'sferrin' post at top of this page posted below for 'surprise for LM & their EW quote' reasons. Now that this post is top of 'next page' go back to previous page for 'cited post' & I'll add some 'more' paras for context....
Germany officially knocks F-35 out of competition to replace Tornado
01 Feb 2019 Sebastian Sprenger

"COLOGNE, Germany ― Germany’s Ministry of Defence has officially ruled out the F-35 joint strike fighter as a choice to replace its aging Tornado fleet, Defense News has learned. An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet. The news was first reported by German site AugenGeradeaus.

The move is not altogether surprising. Berlin for some time has officially favored an upgraded version of the fourth-generation Eurofighter Typhoon, built by a consortium of Airbus, Leonardo and BAE Systems, as the Tornado replacement. The main argument is to keep European companies involved in building combat aircraft and, perhaps even more importantly, staying clear of disturbing Franco-German momentum in armaments cooperation....

...German defense officials on Thursday evening stressed that no decisions had been made besides reducing the playing field to the FA-18 and the Eurofighter Typhoon. The Defense Ministry will request additional information from the respective manufacturers, Boeing and Airbus, on the issues of operations, economic viability and timing, these officials said.

Germany’s decision appears to have come at the surprise of F-35 manufacturer Lockheed Martin, which was not told by the ministry of the imminent announcement.

“We have not been officially notified of a decision on Germany’s future fighter,” Lockheed spokesman Mike Friedman said in an emailed response to a query. “The F-35 delivers unmatched value as the most capable and lowest life-cycle cost aircraft, while delivering the strongest long-term industrial and economic opportunities compared to any fighter on the market. As the foundation of NATO’s next generation of air power, the F-35 is the most advanced aircraft in the world today, and includes Electronic Attack capabilities well beyond any specialized fourth generation aircraft.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... e-tornado/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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popcorn

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 08:10

spazsinbad wrote:... As the foundation of NATO’s next generation of air power, the F-35 is the most advanced aircraft in the world today, and includes Electronic Attack capabilities well beyond any specialized fourth generation aircraft.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... e-tornado/
[/quote]


Specialized fourth generation aircraft = Growler?
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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hornetfinn

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 08:14

hb_pencil wrote:So lets all take a breath people and put the pitchforks away?

While industrial considerations are a part of this decision, there's a more important factor that militated towards the Shornet over the F-35: They need to replace the ECR version of the Tornado as well as the IDS. Everybody is looking at the nuclear capability, but forgetting the 18 ECRs that will retire in a decade's time as well. The German government is still looking at 20 years of operations with the Eurofighter: the loss of the ECR will greatly diminish their total force capability, so that's a key consideration. While the F-35 is a powerful capability, its organic concept of operations doesn't fit as well with the entire German Luftwaffe force structure, where they need a dedicating jamming aircraft. Consequently the Super Hornet/Growler capability is more valuable to them than the F-35.

The Eurofighter route will likely see Germans spend money not only on developing a dual key role, but a dedicated jammer, or an upgrade package to increase individual aircraft self protection. This would be in line with their 2016 capability development document that calls for greater flexibility but with fewer platform types. It would also signal their intent to invest in their domestic industry,


I really doubt that going Eurofighter route will result in any dedicated jammer system that was anywhere near capabilities of Growler or F-35. Just hanging couple of jamming pods under Eurofighter would not be very effective method. Doing EuroGrowler would cost a lot (at least couple of billions) as they would need to develop all the systems from scratch. Growler development was several billion US$ while using existing jamming pods and procurement cost was significantly higher than for regular SH. Many statements have been made that F-35 is equal or superior to current purpose built EW aircraft and far exceeding any other fighter aircraft. Growler is powerful system, but it also needs to sit back much further away than F-35 which can improve EA/EW effectiveness simply by going close to threat radar. Of course F-35 is likely more limited in frequency coverage and is limited to higher frequency radars. But naturally those are also by far the most threatening systems.

Besides, Tornado ECR has rather modest EW capabilties and is very much like F-16CJ or F-4G Wild Weasels. It uses EW pretty much only for self protection and HARMs to shut down enemy radars. In that role F-35 is extremely effective due to SA and stealth giving ability to get much closer to enemy radars. They have proven extremely effective for S/DEAD in excercises already using just JDAMs.
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marsavian

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 08:38

So a possible mixed Growler/Typhoon buy where the Growlers are also B-61 carriers and where these Growlers would have CFTs and next gen AESA jamming pods ? It's a plan I suppose which does shield your older less stealthy air force in combat in a different way then having F-35s do it and is politically acceptable to the EU nationalists.The Growlers could then complement SCAF when introduced without publicly embarrassing it. It could fly ;).
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spazsinbad

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 09:28

Why do not the USMC operate Growlers? At moment only USN & RAAF do it; hanging out for the NGJ Next Gen Jammer. Will the US trust German use of current Growler let alone NGJ? Personally I don't care, situation much like Canada I think.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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marsavian

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 11:59

Why do not the USMC operate Growlers?


They probably figure the F-35B/C can protect itself and an accompanying Osprey adequately. What a Growler will give you is high power full spherical jamming coverage over all frequencies, so Comms and Datalinks as well as Surveillance/Target radars, whereas the F-35 is limited to the 120 cone of its AESA and a frequency spread centred most powerfully around X-band.
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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 12:50

“What a Growler will give you is high power full spherical jamming coverage over all frequencies...”

Ah, no. Recommend you read up a bit on ALQ-99 and NGJ increments. They are neither spherical nor all-frequency.
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ricnunes

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 19:09

spazsinbad wrote:The last paragraphs from the 'sferrin' post at top of this page posted below for 'surprise for LM & their EW quote' reasons. Now that this post is top of 'next page' go back to previous page for 'cited post' & I'll add some 'more' paras for context....
Germany officially knocks F-35 out of competition to replace Tornado
01 Feb 2019 Sebastian Sprenger

"COLOGNE, Germany ― Germany’s Ministry of Defence has officially ruled out the F-35 joint strike fighter as a choice to replace its aging Tornado fleet, Defense News has learned. An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet. The news was first reported by German site AugenGeradeaus.


So the only way for the F-35 to "lose" is to be forced out from a competition, LoL.

Anyway, not surprising (at least not to me). Germany would never buy the F-35 basically for the same reasons as France wouldn't also buy the F-35.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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hb_pencil

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 19:53

hornetfinn wrote:I really doubt that going Eurofighter route will result in any dedicated jammer system that was anywhere near capabilities of Growler or F-35. Just hanging couple of jamming pods under Eurofighter would not be very effective method. Doing EuroGrowler would cost a lot (at least couple of billions) as they would need to develop all the systems from scratch.


See I think they're probably going to leverage French efforts on the Rafale like SPECTRA and other platforms. This would fit in with their capability development policy they espoused a few years ago and fits neatly as a lead-in to FCAS due to industrial cooperation.

If they go down a pure Eurofighter route, they would probably look less at broad area jamming, and focus more on improving the organic self protection of their Eurofighter aircraft. Is it as effective as F-35? nobody is arguing that, but they're not going to scrap 140+ Eurofighters either, the majority of which are less than five years old. Another option is that they develop some sort of more dedicated system with the French, perhaps focused on NEURON and some other platform.

hornetfinn wrote:Growler development was several billion US$ while using existing jamming pods and procurement cost was significantly higher than for regular SH. Many statements have been made that F-35 is equal or superior to current purpose built EW aircraft and far exceeding any other fighter aircraft. Growler is powerful system, but it also needs to sit back much further away than F-35 which can improve EA/EW effectiveness simply by going close to threat radar. Of course F-35 is likely more limited in frequency coverage and is limited to higher frequency radars. But naturally those are also by far the most threatening systems.


That's not their concept of operation however. They're not going to rely on the F-35 to do everything and leave the rest of their fleet to be useless behind them. They're wedded to their systems of systems approach, and they want to keep Eurofighters viable for as long as possible

hornetfinn wrote:Besides, Tornado ECR has rather modest EW capabilties and is very much like F-16CJ or F-4G Wild Weasels. It uses EW pretty much only for self protection and HARMs to shut down enemy radars. In that role F-35 is extremely effective due to SA and stealth giving ability to get much closer to enemy radars. They have proven extremely effective for S/DEAD in excercises already using just JDAMs.


Sure but they're looking to significantly improve the EW capabilities, thats part of their roadmap.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 19:56

Just for the graphic & quotable quote....
Germany eliminates F-35 from Tornado-replacement race
01 Feb 2018 Gareth Jennings

"...The decision to eliminate the F-35 from the proceedings is not altogether surprising, despite the Luftwaffe’s previously disclosed preference for the aircraft. Speaking in late 2017 the former service chief, Lieutenant General Karl Müllner, said “The Luftwaffe considers the F-35’s capability as the benchmark for the selection process for the Tornado replacement, and I think I have expressed myself clearly enough as to what the favourite of the air force is.”"

CGI: "Lockheed Martin had high hopes of selling its F-35 to Germany, and had issued a number of promotional images including the aircraft in Luftwaffe markings. Source: Lockheed Martin via IHS Markit/Gareth Jennings" https://www.janes.com/images/assets/100 ... 4_main.jpg


Source: https://www.janes.com/article/86100/ger ... ement-race
Attachments
F-35AgermanCGI.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 21:52

Let me put this out there: significant chance exists that Germans will buy Growlers, but no additional HARM/AARGM.

The pitfall of having a credible fighting force is that you are expected to use it. Berlin isn't interested in that.
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popcorn

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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 23:03

Strange competition where the lower cost, more capable platform doesn't even make the final cut.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 23:53

popcorn wrote:Strange competition where the lower cost, more capable platform doesn't even make the final cut.


Not really, there is virtually zero possibility that anything but a Eurofighter derivative will be purchased. It doesn't really matter what the Luftwaffe wants (witness their abysmal readiness), it is all about industrial considerations. The MoD has pretty much said as much. Any non-Eurofighter competitor is largely in the competition to get Airbus to give them the best deal possible, although that will still be very expensive since they know they will get the contract in the end.
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Unread post03 Feb 2019, 00:31

What about an F-15G built strictly for their needs? European partner for the ECCM/EW suite. Maybe even offer non-AESA radar.
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Unread post03 Feb 2019, 01:07

usnvo wrote:
popcorn wrote:Strange competition where the lower cost, more capable platform doesn't even make the final cut.


Not really, there is virtually zero possibility that anything but a Eurofighter derivative will be purchased. It doesn't really matter what the Luftwaffe wants (witness their abysmal readiness), it is all about industrial considerations. The MoD has pretty much said as much. Any non-Eurofighter competitor is largely in the competition to get Airbus to give them the best deal possible, although that will still be very expensive since they know they will get the contract in the end.


Yes, I fully agree with the above.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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