The Germans are coming!

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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sferrin

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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 21:35

talkitron wrote:Germany officially knocks F-35 out of competition to replace Tornado

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... e-tornado/

An official from the ministry confirmed that the F-35 is not a finalist in the competition, which seeks a replacement for the 90-jet fleet.


I'll bet the German Military loves the hell out of this. /sarc.
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steve2267

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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 21:36

:doh:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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marsavian

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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 21:38

So drop the stealthy F-35 which is going to be certified to carry B-61 anyway but still include the not so stealthy F-18 in the competition which will now need certifying to carry the B-61. Why F-18 but not F-35 ? Truly bizarre if it's only European aircraft really wanted unless you wanted a sham competition the Typhoon could win without stretching incredulity !

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... SKCN1PP2DM

BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will choose between the Eurofighter and Boeing’s F/A-18 fighter jet to replace its aging Tornado fighter jets, knocking Lockheed Martin’s F-35 out of a tender worth billions of euros, Defence Ministry sources said on Thursday.

No timetable for a decision was given, but the process could take time since the U.S. government will have to certify both jets to carry the nuclear weapons.

The German air force will also move ahead with long-awaited plans to replace its 33 oldest Eurofighter jets, now used mainly for air policing or training, with new, more capable Eurofighters in coming years, the sources said.
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steve2267

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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 22:04

Germany already gave up it's nuclear powerplant capacity. Kind of gave the country over to the whims of the Russian bear's whims with regard to energy supply. Could this be foreshadowing that Germany is going to give up her silver bullets? Hard to believe they would do so, when their French neighbors retain their capability.

Sell the F-35A to Poland. Give her the B61s under the same sort of arrangement as Belgium, the Netherlands etc. On the other hand... if that makes Putin apoplectic and pushes the bear over the edge... maybe not such a good idea. F-35s for Poland I still like.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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citanon

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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 22:55

marsavian wrote: Truly bizarre if it's only European aircraft really wanted unless you wanted a sham competition the Typhoon could win without stretching incredulity !


DING DING DING we have a winner! :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 23:41

Countdown to Germans requesting B-61s to be removed has started.

It actually is a good thing. Seeing how Bundeswehr is run into the ground by the politicians even at the times of "increased defense spending", thank goodness they won't tarnish F-35 reputation by maintaining its mission readiness at a single digit percent availability and NOT deploying it when the situation calls for.

Let them eat some more "Raptor salad". Goes down well with Nord Stream 3 sh*t sammich.
Last edited by hythelday on 01 Feb 2019, 00:18, edited 1 time in total.
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archeman

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 00:16

I found this quote to be the most compelling of all the arguments put forward in the news piece:

"Paris, Germany’s closest European partner, had warned that buying the F-35 in particular could derail plans to develop a new Franco-German fighter by 2040."


It would be very difficult for the French to believe that their partner Germany was really "in" on their co-development project while also purchasing a system that offered about 75% overlap in capabilities. The ystème de Combat Aérien du Future (SCAF)/Future Combat Air System (FCAS) program absolutely needs a partner and watching Germany buy F-35s.......

The Warnings from Paris must have been very serious indeed.
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sferrin

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 01:11

archeman wrote:I found this quote to be the most compelling of all the arguments put forward in the news piece:

"Paris, Germany’s closest European partner, had warned that buying the F-35 in particular could derail plans to develop a new Franco-German fighter by 2040."


Well that IS the reason Bill Sweetman has been hyperventilating about the F-35 for the last decade. He was completely convinced that if the F-35 succeeded it would destroy Europe's ability to build a fighter aircraft, and he's a Euro so. . ..
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vilters

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 01:13

Politics, politics, politics.

Did they learn nothing??

NH-90 = a disaster with a capital D => Not a single customer is happy with their NH-90. None of them.
AM-400 = Just wait, and wait some more, then find out it is a disaster (Should have bought C-130 and be happy ever after)

Tornado and Tiffy, both complete, even more then complete military failures.

Tornado's had to ask ATC to get the Migs flying lower and slower so they could escort them. How crazy can it get???

Tiffy's reliability is so good, pilots have to fight for a flyable jet to get their NATO required flight hrs. Does a relatively good Job in A2A but absolutely sucks in A2G.

Politics, not an enemy, but politics will defeat Europe (or what's left of it.)
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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 02:22

Found this article on another website so all that is here is what is there and I have no subscription to 'Financial Times'.
Germany opts against buying American F-35 stealth fighter
I guess today 01 Feb 2019 FT

Berlin cuts options for replacing Tornado fleet down to Eurofighter or US F-18. The German defence ministry has decided not to buy the F-35 stealth fighter as a replacement for the country’s ageing Tornado fleet, and is instead looking at acquiring either more Eurofighters from Airbus or the Boeing-made F-18.

A final decision has yet to be made, defence officials said in Berlin on Thursday evening, but the ministry has now effectively narrowed down the choice from four planes to two. Aside from the Eurofighter, the F-35 and the F-18, Germany had initially also considered the F-15 as a possible Tornado replacement. Both the F-35, made by Lockheed Martin, and the F-15, also made by Boeing, have now dropped out of the race. The German defence ministry will now seek more precise information regarding the two remaining planes from Boeing and from Airbus, officials said.

The decision to narrow down the choice to the Eurofighter and the F-18 reflects careful political calculations — and the desire in Berlin to balance competing demands from two of its closest allies: the US and France. A move to replace at least part of the Tornado fleet with an American-made plane would be certain to please the US government, which has long clamoured for Germany to raise its defence spending and lobbied hard in favour of a US jet.

France, on the other hand, is understood to have argued strongly against a German acquisition of the F-35, which is widely seen as the most advanced of the four jets on offer and could have served German military needs for years to come. According to defence analysts, buying the older F-18 poses much less of a threat to Franco-German plans to build a super-modern next-generation “Future Combat Air System” after 2035.

It is still possible that the German defence ministry will decide to shun the F-18 and buy only the Eurofighter. That is the solution favoured by key members of parliament, especially those from the Social Democratic party, the junior partner in Angela Merkel’s coalition government. But such a move would raise immediate questions over Germany’s ability to participate in Nato’s “nuclear-sharing” arrangement, whereby US nuclear weapons are kept on European bases, ready for deployment by European planes. In the case of Germany, that task is currently performed by Tornado planes, which means any replacement needs to be technically capable as well as certified by the US to carry American nuclear warheads.

Some analysts doubt the Eurofighter could win that certification before the 85-strong Tornado fleet is phased out, a process that is expected to start in 2025. In the case of the F-18, there are no such doubts."

Source: https://www.ft.com/content/cb0f12dc-259 ... e6ceb5ffdf
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madrat

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 02:30

Ever since reunification we cannot honestly treat Germany as we did Western Germany. I'm fine if they have no F-35 or anything American.
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marauder2048

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 03:18

Some analysts doubt the Eurofighter could win that certification before the 85-strong Tornado fleet is phased out, a process that is expected to start in 2025. In the case of the F-18, there are no such doubts."


Uh..what? A nuclear certified Super Hornet that will exist in an unsupported (by its primary user)
configuration is pretty doubtful in the timeframe.
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lbk000

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 04:59

Considering the fearful state their EFs are in, I'm relieved they excused themselves of the F-35.
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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 06:03

So lets all take a breath people and put the pitchforks away?

While industrial considerations are a part of this decision, there's a more important factor that militated towards the Shornet over the F-35: They need to replace the ECR version of the Tornado as well as the IDS. Everybody is looking at the nuclear capability, but forgetting the 18 ECRs that will retire in a decade's time as well. The German government is still looking at 20 years of operations with the Eurofighter: the loss of the ECR will greatly diminish their total force capability, so that's a key consideration. While the F-35 is a powerful capability, its organic concept of operations doesn't fit as well with the entire German Luftwaffe force structure, where they need a dedicating jamming aircraft. Consequently the Super Hornet/Growler capability is more valuable to them than the F-35.

The Eurofighter route will likely see Germans spend money not only on developing a dual key role, but a dedicated jammer, or an upgrade package to increase individual aircraft self protection. This would be in line with their 2016 capability development document that calls for greater flexibility but with fewer platform types. It would also signal their intent to invest in their domestic industry,
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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 06:58

Eliminating the F-35 from the competition prevents having the F-35 directly compared to any of the other competitors. The Luftwaffe had to problems publicly saying they wanted the F-35. Preventing the F-35 from competing avoids a redux of the Swiss competition where the most capable fighter was passed on because of politics, and the ensuing backlash.
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