The Germans are coming!

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Apr 2018, 07:06

My guess is the Nations of the JSF (F-35) Partners would be real "up-set" if Germany selects more Typhoons. As they clearly wouldn't be capable of performing as a Tornado Replacement post 2030. (just not survivable)


Especially, considering Germany is shouldering less and less of the Defense burden for Europe. :shock:
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Apr 2018, 21:46

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Apr 2018, 22:11

Read some more HOOhaa here:

Lockheed tries to steer clear of German F-35 politics 26 Apr 2018 Sebastian Sprenger

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... -politics/
&
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-448062/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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talkitron

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Unread post15 May 2018, 18:30

This article and accompanying short video have some interesting details on the chronic unavailability of German military vehicles. In particular, there are only enough parts and weapons for four (!!!!) out of 128 Typhoons at a time and a major limitation of the Typhoon in German service is that its so-called Defensive Aids Subsystem (DASS) is a German-only model whose coolant supplier has gone out of business.

Unfortunately, the DASS pods on Germany's Typhoons have been failing because of coolant leaks. And the supplier for the part needed to repair the leak is no longer in business. As the rest of Eurofighters' customers are upgrading their DASS systems to the Praetorian DASS from the Italian defense company Leonardo, the factory for the part was sold—and Germany, which did not opt for the upgrade, is now left without a supplier.


https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... bat-ready/
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lrrpf52

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Unread post15 May 2018, 22:32

A big problem I have is that Germany assisted Russia in the transfer of critical net-centric technology when Rheinmetall sold them their version of Blue Force Tracker and helped them build a modern battle simulations center. Once Russia invaded Ukraine with the Annexation of Crimea, Rheinmetall was forced to withdraw from their contract with the Russian army.

https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/rus ... orts-38015

Rheinmetall developed their copy of the US's Blue Force Tracker, called Gladius and fielded it with the Bundeswehr in 2012. We had been working on Land Warrior already in the early 1990s, and matured the system into a practical set of kit by the early 2000s. Blue Force Tracker was one of the main net-centric hardware-software programs that emerged from that and became operational.

Image

We then saw Russian troops with their own BFT in the annexation of Crimea in March of 2014, in the middle of the Rheinmetall contact with Russia.

Image


Image


Russia has integrated this into drone interface, hacking, and cyberwarfare since asymmetric action makes more sense for them and everyone else facing US qualitative and quantitative advantages.

German aerospace and intelligence communities would be all over the F-35 so they could reverse-engineer as much of it as possible, and they have the engineers who actually know what they are doing to gain a better understanding of what's under the hood.

I would recommend letting Germany and France trying to develop their own 5th Gen assets over the next 15-20 years while we work on 6th Gen. It sucks that France has made their bed with Germany on defense. The UK was much smarter in all of this by being on the ground level of JSF.
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sunstersun

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Unread post16 May 2018, 10:10

I pretty much have 0 hope for Germany buying the F-35. I doubt the F-35 would win even if Obama was still in office.
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mk82

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Unread post16 May 2018, 15:48

Corsair1963 wrote:My guess is the Nations of the JSF (F-35) Partners would be real "up-set" if Germany selects more Typhoons. As they clearly wouldn't be capable of performing as a Tornado Replacement post 2030. (just not survivable)


Especially, considering Germany is shouldering less and less of the Defense burden for Europe. :shock:


It is frankly a stupid decision for Germany to acquire more Typhoons when most of their (current) Typhoons are not suitable for operational/combat duties (due to significant logistical/maintenance issues). But I guess Germany could increase the number of operational/combat ready Typhoons to a grand total of 8 aircraft (yay!!!! :roll: ) if Germany acquires more Typhoons :mrgreen:
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talkitron

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 19:03

Here is a rumor on an Italian site: Germany might acquire 90 Typhoons to replace its Tornados and possible even 33 updated Typhoons to replace tranche 1 Typhoons.

http://www.portaledifesa.it/index~phppag,3_id,2407.html

Google Translate:

Germany now seems to have decided that the TORNADO substitute will be the TYPHOON Eurofighter. Political and industrial reasons, however, push in this direction despite the fact - officially and unofficially - preference of the Luftwaffe for the F-35. Times are tight and from here to a year we will probably know who has popped up for a requirement of 90 aircraft plus possibly another 33 specimens to replace the TYPHOON Tranche 1. Sure is that if the TYPHOON - agile hunting, powerful and fast par excellence - will have to replace a fighter-bomber as the TORNADO, the changes will have to be many and very extensive, and significant investments, to the full advantage, however, of the Old Continent industry. First of all the radar. Even now we know that the Germans want the R1 Plus Plus configuration of the CAPTOR-E, but this also means upgrading the DASS PRAETORIAN self-protection system to avoid interference of any kind and to allow the 2 systems to work together optimally. As is known, in fact, the CAPTOR-E, in its 2 most advanced versions, R1 Plus Plus and R2 (the latter only for the English) also has electronic warfare capabilities which, in fact, must be combined with the functionalities offered by the DAS for optimize the performance of the machine as a whole. Then it will be necessary to intervene on the engine - in particular on the FADEC, but we also talk about enlarging the fan - to adapt it to the new cycle and also evaluate how to extend the autonomy - even if at the moment there is no mention of CFT. A last note. In addition to the TORNADO IDS, the TYPHOON should eventually also replace the TORNADO ECR and be adapted for nuclear strike. In the first case, we need to think about the integration of an escort jammer - and here the mind runs to the EDGE of Electronics, the only non-US and non-Israeli product available - and anti-radiation missiles. In Europe, Germany is the only nation with Italy that has this ability: fundamental, therefore, do not lose it, especially if you think about the turn that are taking the new scenarios. In the second case, you will have to talk to the Americans to integrate the B-61 nuclear bomb and certify the aircraft. One thing by no means trivial and that Washington is now using as a lever of blackmail in favor of the F-35. In definitive it is all very expensive changes, but that would serve the German industry to relaunch, after years of wrong choices that have made it significantly decay especially in the electronics and aeronautics, and also to the Italian that certain skills, fortunately, He still has it. Please do not forget it.
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magitsu

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 19:53

Yeah, it's related to Reuters story about an inquiry whether the US would allow their nukes to be carried on Typhoons.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... reddit.com
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usnvo

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 22:53

magitsu wrote:Yeah, it's related to Reuters story about an inquiry whether the US would allow their nukes to be carried on Typhoons.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... reddit.com


It is unlikely the Germans would ever buy the F-35 as long as a German option is available regardless of price or capability.

I listened to the Chief of Staff of the Marine (Navy) explain why the NH-90 was not a viable replacement to the Sea King for the SAR mission (having less than half the endurance required by the mission requirements was a big part of it but also cheaper alternatives like the CH-148 and AW101 existed that could meet the required endurance). The Defense Ministry purchased NH-90s anyway and told the Navy to change the requirements.

I suspect that whatever the results of the evaluation, even if the Typhoon is the most expensive option (pretty much guaranteed since they have been in denial of Typhoon costs for years https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germ ... 6C20140430) and least capable, the Typhoon will be purchased. And frankly, there is really nothing wrong with that other than the hypocrisy of having a "competition". Just say you are buying German regardless and be done with it. Let's just hope they actually buy spare parts this time.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 23:02

Well, if we kick Turkey out of the program that will free up a bunch of room for Germany to buy into the program. :mrgreen:
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Corsair1963

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 23:55

The longer Germany puts off a decision on a Tornado Replacement. The harder it will be for them to acquire more Typhoons. As it will be obvious that operating 4th Generation Fighter post 2030 is noting short of "Suicide". :shock:
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madrat

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Unread post21 Jun 2018, 01:55

The leadership of Germany has been prone to entertaining such notions of late. May be intentional.
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weasel1962

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Unread post21 Jun 2018, 01:59

Who is Germany going to fight in the next 2 decades?
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popcorn

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Unread post21 Jun 2018, 03:06

weasel1962 wrote:Who is Germany going to fight in the next 2 decades?

Is your house going to burn down in the next 2 decades? I bet you have insurance and buy the best that you can afford to address the risk.
As the saying goes "the only thing more expensive than a first-rate air force is a second-rate one'.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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