The Turkey problem

[spazsinbad]

MINUS down UP level bigga betta moar - sounds like verbal disorientation VD. Oh nose! WORSerBAD finally.

[spazsinbad]

Stop buying Turkey’s F-35 parts, lawmakers tell DoD
07 Jul 2020 Joe Gould

"WASHINGTON ― A bipartisan group of lawmakers is urging the Pentagon to more quickly stop buying F-35 fighter jet components from Turkey. Sens. James Lankford, R-Okla.; Jeanne Shaheen, D-N.H.; Thom Tillis, R-N.C.; and Chris Can Hollen, D-Md., wrote in a letter to Defense Secretary Mark Esper on July 6 that the Pentagon’s plans to buy parts from Turkey into 2022 undercuts U.S. pressure on the country over its purchase of the Russian S-400 Triumf air defense system....

...Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment Ellen Lord told reporters in January that it would allow prime contractor Lockheed Martin and engine-maker Pratt & Whitney to honor existing contractual obligations with Turkish manufacturers for F-35 components. That means Lockheed would receive Turkish parts through the end of Lot 14, with those planes set to be delivered to customers in 2022.

Turkish manufacturers were involved in building more than 900 parts for the F-35, and Pentagon officials said in November that it had found replacement suppliers for nearly all of them. Moving production from Turkey to the U.S. was projected to cost more than $500 million in nonrecurring engineering costs....

...The lawmakers argued to Esper that continuing to buy parts violates the 2020 NDAA and its “clear diplomatic message to Turkey about the consequences of moving forward with Russian defense systems and technology.” “Based on recent revelations, it is clear that the Pentagon is not following its own timeline or the intent of Congress in this matter,” the letter read. “We encourage you to reexamine the present approach and take action to ensure an expedited removal of Turkey from the manufacturing line as required by law.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... -tell-dod/

[jessmo112]

Turkey testing The S-400 on F-22/35.

It doesnt matter if they had luneberg lenses or not.
The fact that you know the Aircrafts flight plan but you compromise the aircrafts position is tantamount to betrayal. We need to totally divest from Turkey.

https://armyrecognition.com/defense_new ... f-35s.html

[krieger22]

I'm extremely skeptical of the article's contents, as I've found Bulgarian Defence to be increasingly fantastical of late, especially with Russian tech.

I'm not terribly pleased with the Turkish government, but that means I have to check extra hard as to what I'm reading is true or just what I want to hear.

[Corsair1963]

Congress Pushes Pentagon To Finally Kick Turkey Out Of F-35 Program

The senators wrote they "remain concerned about the direction Turkey is taking under the leadership of President Erdogan...Turkey is not behaving like a responsible actor or working collaboratively with the West at the level we expect from a NATO ally."


WASHINGTON: One of the dwindling points of bipartisan consensus on Capitol Hill is the continuing push to stop Turkey’s participation in the F-35 program. A group of Republican and Democratic lawmakers sent a letter to Defense Secretary Mark Esper demanding answers about why the country is still supplying parts to the program, months after the relationship was scheduled to be severed.

The senators said they’re “concerned about the pace” at which the Pentagon is working to replace the 900 parts Turkish companies provide the program, even after the US formally removed Turkey from the program in 2019 and ended training for Turkish pilots in response to Turkey’s purchase of the Russian S-400 air defense system.




The group, which includes Sens. James Lankford, Jeanne Shaheen, Thom Tillis, and Chris Van Hollen, say they “remain concerned about the direction Turkey is taking under the leadership of President Erdogan. From human rights violations in Syria to arbitrary arrests of Americans in Ankara to defense cooperation with Russia, Turkey is not behaving like a responsible actor or working collaboratively with the West at the level we expect from a NATO ally.”

The Pentagon had set a March 2020 deadline for replacing the Turkish contractor participation, but in January, undersecretary for acquisition and sustainment Ellen Lord said the US would let Lockheed Martin and engine-maker Pratt & Whitney move ahead with their contractual obligations with Turkish manufacturers for F-35 components. In the end, Turkish companies would continue to supply parts through Lot 14, with those planes to be delivered in 2022.



In the 2020 defense bill, Congress provided DoD $30 million to remove Turkey from the program, and made another $250 million available to find alternate sources for the parts, but the replacement effort has been more difficult than expected.

In May, Turkish Defence Industry Director Ismail Demir said “there was an understanding in the United States that nothing would be bought from Turkey for the F-35s after March 2020, but that approach is no longer there,” suggesting the global coronavirus pandemic pushed the deadline back. “Our companies continue their production and delivery,” Demir said, insisting Turkey remained a “loyal partner” of the F-35 program.


https://breakingdefense.com/2020/07/con ... dVE85_NAgQ

[element1loop]

Alternatively, read this today.

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... -proposal/

[spazsinbad]

Alternatively, read this today.
https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... -proposal/

Alternatively 'zerion' posted that news 30 Jun 2020 - yes - on another thread: F-35 Versus S-300/400/HQ-9
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=57051&p=441560&hilit=proposal#p441560

Alternative 'two faces - can't let go' song attached.

[mgelevli]

In my 6th July, 2019 post, I had proposed a solution for the F-35 / S-400 crisis. In that post, I recommended that the industrial participation of Turkish companies should continue, while the deliveries of the F-35 aircraft to Turkish Air Force cancelled and substituted with F-15EX aircraft.
Today, I think this is, somehow, becoming a reality: US insists not to deliver the F-35 aircraft while we possess the S-400 ADS (although still not operational). But the US government does not block the transfer of other high tech weapons systems and spare parts to Turkey, simultaneously continuing to purchase many F-35 parts, despite a decision to end it by April 2020. Recently, there are rumors for the procurement of additional F-16 aircraft (30 to as much as 70 F-16V Block 70) for replacing the old Phantoms that would be replaced with the arrival of the F-35s. I had suggested the F-15EX as it was a more suitable replacement for the F-4s, but the F-16V is also a good option, even better in terms of the support base of F-16 in Turkey. We will see what will shape up...
May the peace with you all.
Best wishes from Turkey.

[jessmo112]

In my 6th July, 2019 post, I had proposed a solution for the F-35 / S-400 crisis. In that post, I recommended that the industrial participation of Turkish companies should continue, while the deliveries of the F-35 aircraft to Turkish Air Force cancelled and substituted with F-15EX aircraft.
Today, I think this is, somehow, becoming a reality: US insists not to deliver the F-35 aircraft while we possess the S-400 ADS (although still not operational). But the US government does not block the transfer of other high tech weapons systems and spare parts to Turkey, simultaneously continuing to purchase many F-35 parts, despite a decision to end it by April 2020. Recently, there are rumors for the procurement of additional F-16 aircraft (30 to as much as 70 F-16V Block 70) for replacing the old Phantoms that would be replaced with the arrival of the F-35s. I had suggested the F-15EX as it was a more suitable replacement for the F-4s, but the F-16V is also a good option, even better in terms of the support base of F-16 in Turkey. We will see what will shape up...
May the peace with you all.
Best wishes from Turkey.

Its not about the F-16 or other weapons. Its about the F-35 being in proximity to the S-400.
We dont want the Russians to know the F-35s flight path and try and develop countermeasures.
If Turkey Just knew the F-35/F-22s flight plan that wouldn't be an issue.
If Turkey Just had The Russians in country with no F-35s and no knowledge of F-35 over flights we wouldn't care as much but we have.
Russians in Turkey.
Russian systems in Turkey.
And knowledge of F-35 over flights.
It would completely compromise the system if Turkey had the system.

[mgelevli]

I totally understand the setbacks of permitting the F-35 operations within the vicinity of S-400 ADS. Our situation is not the same with the Israeli or Norwegian F-35s operating near Russian S-400s. The US has a clear argument; we may not have both at the same time, we may not be allowed to operate both the F-35 and the S-400 at the same place, at the same time. Whatever the reason, our choice has been the S-400 ADS. Personally I do not support this preference, but it is the reality now. There are a wide array of losses for the Turkish Armed Forces being unable to get its F-35A aircraft, and the Turkish defence industry losing its share of production and supply chain businesses that worth billions of USD and a huge industrial know how that cannot be stated in terms of money.
With the JSF program partnership, Turkish Air Force would replace the old F-4E Phantoms and early blocks of F-16s. With the addition of Juan Carlos I class TCG Anadolu LHD to the Turkish Navy, we also began looking for the procurement of F-35B jets for use on it, that would transform the naval aviation capabilities largely. But the S-400 ADS procurement caused those plans to collapse. Now, we are not able to replace our Phantom fleet. We may not have aviation capabilities other than helicopters or drones on our sole LHD. We are in a stuck position with about 250 or so F-16s, in a region getting crowded with 4++ /5 gen jets that are much capable and numerous. In my previous posts, addressing the situation, I had suggested a solution for the crisis. Accepting the US arguments that we may not be allowed to use F-35s along with the S-400s, I proposed that we could replace our Phantoms with F-15X (or with F-16V, as it is rumored recently) instead of F-35s, until we may get something out of our indigenous future fighter program.

[jessmo112]

This is my question for you as a Turkish citizen.
Who are these S-400s aimed at?

1. Is there fear of a Russian attack?

2. Are Turkish people fearing a U S. Strike?

3. Are they afraid of Israel? Syria is crawling with S-300 and S-400 systems, and so far Israel has not be deterred.

4. Is it Iran, Iraq or Jorden even?

What country constitutes the kind of threat that only the S-400 can stop?
And for Russia, Israel and the U.S. would S-400s even ptesent a bump in the road.
There is one enemy I forgot about. Its Greece.
But If I was a U.S. president I would consider selling or donating F-35s to athens. I would let the Turks know how it feels when your ally betrays your trust and aids an enemy. I mean I hear there are a few F-35s laying around.
Just maybe.

[mixelflick]

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised to see it.

Ergodan's mistake is only now revealing itself to be collosal. He's not going to be able to afford enough Mig-35's/SU-30's/35's to replace all of his dated Phantoms and Vipers 1:1. Not even close. The S-400 still isn't operational, and even when it is it's going to do... what exactly? Israel (or any nation flying F-35's) is going to render that system suspect, if not inoperable given that's what it was designed for.

It's not like China's going to be a much better option either. J-10's or like light fighters may not be as expensive as Flankers, but they won't be cheap either. Nor will they last long vs. F-35's from say, Greece. In fact if Greece plays its cards right they'll emerge with a huge tactical and strategic advantage over the Turks when this is all said and done.

[lbk000]

Hi mgelevi
While playing both sides is a reasonable political maneuver, it really does seem, at least from the outside, that Turkey has more to lose without the F-35. As you pointed out, the F-35 was to be a core element in Turkish military modernization that will be difficult to replace; even if the F-35A can be substituted for by TFX, F-35B's STOVL capability seems to me a formidable technological challenge to replace in a timely manner. Somewhat in line with jessmo, I'm curious as to your views on the valuations that led to this move? How does Turkey perceive its position? Thanks.

[Corsair1963]

I still believe that Turkey will come around in the end. As she just cannot afford to walk away from the F-35...The real question is how much will it cost them to return???

[ricnunes]

I still believe that Turkey will come around in the end. As she just cannot afford to walk away from the F-35...The real question is how much will it cost them to return???

Not with Erdogan at the helm, that seems sure IMO.

And even if Erdogan loses the next elections (whenever that will be) suspicions against Turkey from all other JSF/F-35 partners will always be present. For instance when will the 'next Erdogan' come to power?