The Turkey problem
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southerncross wrote:Coherent with what the Turkish general said:
Israel reportedly lobbied Washington to drop Turkey from F-35 program
Officials from Jerusalem said to have pressured Washington behind the scenes to exclude Ankara from fighter jet program in bid to preserve military qualitative edge
Israel worked behind the scenes to ensure the United States blocked the sale of its F-35 stealth fighter jets to Turkey as part of its efforts to preserve its military qualitative edge in the region, Channel 12 reported Wednesday.
Israel in recent months lobbied Washington to drop Ankara from the F-35 program after President Recep Tayyip Erdogan went ahead with a purchase of a Russian-made missile defense system that would give Turkey advanced air capabilities.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-re ... 5-program/
Not forgetting that NATO and the USofA LOBBIED themselves to exclude the Turkish F-35As from the F-35 program?
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Getting Turkey out of NATO is what Israel really wants. They already have the right US president, now they just need the right German PM.
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Should-Tu ... ATO-597323
https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Should-Tu ... ATO-597323
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Lord: US to Take Over Turkish F-35 Parts
American vendors will for now take over production of F-35 fighter jet parts that Turkey was set to build, as the US removes Ankara from the aircraft program, Pentagon acquisition chief Ellen Lord announced Aug. 26.
Lord, in a periodic update on Pentagon acquisition, said the department is also “going on the offensive” against China’s theft of intellectual property. She added that new rules making cybersecurity compliance a determining factor in awarding contracts will go into effect very soon and will affect contracts awarded early next year.
The “900-plus parts” Turkey makes for the F-35 “will be sourced in the US, initially,” Lord said. The US is getting the work because it is “paying all the nonrecurring engineering” costs, and the move is the “most expeditious” way to keep the program on track, she said.
“Competition is our friend, and we’re always looking for more strong, integrated supply chain partners, so there’s always the possibility” the work could migrate overseas,” she added.
Lord said the Pentagon is “well down the pathway” on Turkey’s removal and is still on track to pull the Joint Strike Fighter program out of that country by the end of March 2020.
Turkey’s formal and complete removal from the program should happen “about a year from now, as we work through the production, sustainment and follow-on memorandum of understanding, which is the overarching document for the partnership,” she said.
Lord plans to provide an update on the process next month alongside USAF Lt. Gen. Eric Fick, the new F-35 program executive officer.
The F-35 program is expelling Turkey from its partnership role in the project because of that country’s insistence on buying S-400 Triumf air defense systems from Russia. The US has said Russia would be able to gain valuable insights on tracking and targeting the F-35 if its technicians in Turkey were allowed to be in close proximity to the fighter.
DOD began “unwinding” Turkey’s involvement in the program over the summer. On Aug. 26, Lord said it has not yet been decided what will happen to the four F-35s in the US that Turkey owns, but that they will not be allowed to fly to Turkey.
Previously, Lord said Lockheed Martin would source the parts Turkey will no longer make for the F-35 from across its enterprise, which includes more than a dozen partners and Foreign Military Sales customers. Japan offered to pick up the Turkish industrial role and become an F-35 developmental partner as part of its move to buy more jets, making Japan the second-largest F-35 operator after the US. However, Lord on Monday said the partnership is “closed.”
“There is not a partnership opportunity” for any FMS customers, she said.
On Aug. 23, the Defense Department awarded Lockheed Martin a $2.4 billion contract for F-35 spare parts. The contract adjustment covers initial spares for the Air Force, along with global spare packages for international partners, the Marine Corps, and the Navy, according to a Pentagon announcement.
Lord noted that the US is “keeping the F-35 in Turkey separate and distinct from any other activities in Turkey.” If there are going to be sanctions on Turkey resulting from its doing business with Russia on defense materiel, “State Department has the lead on that,” she said. The US makes heavy use of Incirlik AB in the country, and has many other defense cooperation programs underway with the NATO ally.
http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... Theft.aspx
American vendors will for now take over production of F-35 fighter jet parts that Turkey was set to build, as the US removes Ankara from the aircraft program, Pentagon acquisition chief Ellen Lord announced Aug. 26.
Lord, in a periodic update on Pentagon acquisition, said the department is also “going on the offensive” against China’s theft of intellectual property. She added that new rules making cybersecurity compliance a determining factor in awarding contracts will go into effect very soon and will affect contracts awarded early next year.
The “900-plus parts” Turkey makes for the F-35 “will be sourced in the US, initially,” Lord said. The US is getting the work because it is “paying all the nonrecurring engineering” costs, and the move is the “most expeditious” way to keep the program on track, she said.
“Competition is our friend, and we’re always looking for more strong, integrated supply chain partners, so there’s always the possibility” the work could migrate overseas,” she added.
Lord said the Pentagon is “well down the pathway” on Turkey’s removal and is still on track to pull the Joint Strike Fighter program out of that country by the end of March 2020.
Turkey’s formal and complete removal from the program should happen “about a year from now, as we work through the production, sustainment and follow-on memorandum of understanding, which is the overarching document for the partnership,” she said.
Lord plans to provide an update on the process next month alongside USAF Lt. Gen. Eric Fick, the new F-35 program executive officer.
The F-35 program is expelling Turkey from its partnership role in the project because of that country’s insistence on buying S-400 Triumf air defense systems from Russia. The US has said Russia would be able to gain valuable insights on tracking and targeting the F-35 if its technicians in Turkey were allowed to be in close proximity to the fighter.
DOD began “unwinding” Turkey’s involvement in the program over the summer. On Aug. 26, Lord said it has not yet been decided what will happen to the four F-35s in the US that Turkey owns, but that they will not be allowed to fly to Turkey.
Previously, Lord said Lockheed Martin would source the parts Turkey will no longer make for the F-35 from across its enterprise, which includes more than a dozen partners and Foreign Military Sales customers. Japan offered to pick up the Turkish industrial role and become an F-35 developmental partner as part of its move to buy more jets, making Japan the second-largest F-35 operator after the US. However, Lord on Monday said the partnership is “closed.”
“There is not a partnership opportunity” for any FMS customers, she said.
On Aug. 23, the Defense Department awarded Lockheed Martin a $2.4 billion contract for F-35 spare parts. The contract adjustment covers initial spares for the Air Force, along with global spare packages for international partners, the Marine Corps, and the Navy, according to a Pentagon announcement.
Lord noted that the US is “keeping the F-35 in Turkey separate and distinct from any other activities in Turkey.” If there are going to be sanctions on Turkey resulting from its doing business with Russia on defense materiel, “State Department has the lead on that,” she said. The US makes heavy use of Incirlik AB in the country, and has many other defense cooperation programs underway with the NATO ally.
http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... Theft.aspx
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Looks like Turkey will opt for the SU-35 and/or the SU-57. If that transpires, it should set up an interesting matchup with Israel's F-35's.
I don't think it'll be much of a competition, but other than Israel Turkey looks to make a giant leap in its air combat capability with those 2 heavy fighters (given no Arab country will be getting F-35's anytime soon)..
I don't think it'll be much of a competition, but other than Israel Turkey looks to make a giant leap in its air combat capability with those 2 heavy fighters (given no Arab country will be getting F-35's anytime soon)..
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mixelflick wrote:Looks like Turkey will opt for the SU-35 and/or the SU-57. If that transpires, it should set up an interesting matchup with Israel's F-35's.
I don't think it'll be much of a competition, but other than Israel Turkey looks to make a giant leap in its air combat capability with those 2 heavy fighters (given no Arab country will be getting F-35's anytime soon)..
LOL It looks like no such thing............
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Esper sets demand that might let Turkey rejoin F-35 program
By: Aaron Mehta
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon would consider allowing Turkey to rejoin the F-35 program only if the Russian-made S-400 air defense system is completely removed from Turkish soil, meaning the government in Ankara could not simply keep the systems deactivated in warehouses, the Pentagon’s top official said Wednesday.
“They have to, again, get rid of the S-400 program and completely out of the country [before] we could consider that,” Secretary of Defense Mark Esper told press when asked about the possibility Turkey could find a way to again be part of the Joint Strike Fighter program.
“I have been very clear in both my public comments and privately with my Turkish counterpart: It’s either the F-35 or the S-400,” he said. “It’s not both. It’s not park one in the garage and roll the other one out. It’s one or the other. So we are where we are, and it’s regrettable.”
Turkey, a partner in the F-35 program that helped fund the development of the jet, planned to buy 100 F-35As. However, a decision by Ankara to purchase the S-400 threw a political bomb into the F-35 acquisition plan; the U.S. and its NATO allies expressed major concerns about the Russian system sharing airspace with the alliance’s newest fighter.
In July, Turkey took possession of the first S-400 pieces, and the U.S. formally kicked the country out of the F-35 program. As a result, by March 2020, Turkey’s industrial participation in the F-35 program will be done, with work shifted to U.S. companies.
The secretary’s comments were the first official confirmation that a path, however narrow, for Turkey to rejoin the program does exist.
Some analysts have questioned whether a loophole exists that would allow Ankara to back down, save face and regain the fifth-generation fighter. Should Turkey keep the S-400 parts in a warehouse somewhere not actively running, the argument goes, the U.S. could invite Turkey back to the F-35 program.
But Esper seemed to shut that down, saying: “No, not in my book,” when asked about the possibility.
Appearing with Esper was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joe Dunford, who expounded on the overall relationship with Turkey.
“When I look at Turkey and the United States, it’s very clear to me that we have many more areas of convergence than divergence,” said Dunford, who has spent significant time traveling to Turkey since the failed coup of 2016. “And many of these areas of divergence are kind of near-term issues. They are difficult issues, no question about it, but they’re issues that we can work through. So we try to focus on the horizon.
“If you look at Turkish national interests and you look at U.S. national interests, they are much more closely aligned with any other interlocutor that Turkey may be dealing with right now.”
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... e-country/
By: Aaron Mehta
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon would consider allowing Turkey to rejoin the F-35 program only if the Russian-made S-400 air defense system is completely removed from Turkish soil, meaning the government in Ankara could not simply keep the systems deactivated in warehouses, the Pentagon’s top official said Wednesday.
“They have to, again, get rid of the S-400 program and completely out of the country [before] we could consider that,” Secretary of Defense Mark Esper told press when asked about the possibility Turkey could find a way to again be part of the Joint Strike Fighter program.
“I have been very clear in both my public comments and privately with my Turkish counterpart: It’s either the F-35 or the S-400,” he said. “It’s not both. It’s not park one in the garage and roll the other one out. It’s one or the other. So we are where we are, and it’s regrettable.”
Turkey, a partner in the F-35 program that helped fund the development of the jet, planned to buy 100 F-35As. However, a decision by Ankara to purchase the S-400 threw a political bomb into the F-35 acquisition plan; the U.S. and its NATO allies expressed major concerns about the Russian system sharing airspace with the alliance’s newest fighter.
In July, Turkey took possession of the first S-400 pieces, and the U.S. formally kicked the country out of the F-35 program. As a result, by March 2020, Turkey’s industrial participation in the F-35 program will be done, with work shifted to U.S. companies.
The secretary’s comments were the first official confirmation that a path, however narrow, for Turkey to rejoin the program does exist.
Some analysts have questioned whether a loophole exists that would allow Ankara to back down, save face and regain the fifth-generation fighter. Should Turkey keep the S-400 parts in a warehouse somewhere not actively running, the argument goes, the U.S. could invite Turkey back to the F-35 program.
But Esper seemed to shut that down, saying: “No, not in my book,” when asked about the possibility.
Appearing with Esper was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Joe Dunford, who expounded on the overall relationship with Turkey.
“When I look at Turkey and the United States, it’s very clear to me that we have many more areas of convergence than divergence,” said Dunford, who has spent significant time traveling to Turkey since the failed coup of 2016. “And many of these areas of divergence are kind of near-term issues. They are difficult issues, no question about it, but they’re issues that we can work through. So we try to focus on the horizon.
“If you look at Turkish national interests and you look at U.S. national interests, they are much more closely aligned with any other interlocutor that Turkey may be dealing with right now.”
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... e-country/
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Ankara, Moscow to hold talks over Su-57 fighter jets
28 Aug 2019 Hurriyet Daily News
"Turkey and Russia will commence talks on cooperation in the aviation industry in a bid to strengthen bilateral talks, including the Sukhoi Su-57 stealth fighter jets, after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s one-day visit to Moscow, according to a senior Russian official.
“We will continue to talk about topics on the agenda and of course address the S-400s. We will talk about how we can go through a more advanced phase on the Su-35 and the possible procurement of Su-57,” Dmitry Shugayev, the head of the Russian Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation, told reporters on the sidelines of the MAKS-2019.
Turkey has been showing interest in Russian fighter jets as the former was removed from the U.S. F-35 program, according to Shugayev….
...Putin, for his side, said he and Erdoğan discussed cooperation and joint works on the Su-35 and Su-57 jets. “We talked about cooperation on the Su-35 and the possible joint work on the new Su-57. We have a lot of opportunities,” he said...."
Source: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ankara ... ets-146130
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I've really wondered about all this from the Russian PoV. They are selling their most advanced AD system to NATO country with relatively close ties to USA. I do wonder if they are not worried about their secrets and capabilities getting into USA and NATO hands? Sure USA already has different S-300 units and systems, but S-400 is supposed to be quite a bit more advanced. Same thing with potential Su-57/PAK-FA acquisition.
I think they figured out that the military threat from this would be rather small while commercial and political benefits are far greater.
I think they figured out that the military threat from this would be rather small while commercial and political benefits are far greater.
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Turkey is tainted by Chinese money and influence ten times the amount of Russian influence. The Russians would be wise to avoid any alliance with Ankara as it undermines their own security on a broader sense than any instability they sow between Turkey and NATO. The Russian empire had its head handed to them by the Turks throughout history. There is a thousand years of bad blood there and we are to suddenly believe all is forgiven? No way. Putin is writing his own ending chapter here.
Turkey's TFX has access to everything it needs save for money, time, and technology. It's a pie in the sky and it only works if the entire Muslim world gets behind the program. So far there are hints they actually do have broad support across the predominant Sunni Muslim governments in spirit. Far more support is forming than those Persian Shia ever could muster.
Turkey's TFX has access to everything it needs save for money, time, and technology. It's a pie in the sky and it only works if the entire Muslim world gets behind the program. So far there are hints they actually do have broad support across the predominant Sunni Muslim governments in spirit. Far more support is forming than those Persian Shia ever could muster.
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hornetfinn wrote:I've really wondered about all this from the Russian PoV. They are selling their most advanced AD system to NATO country with relatively close ties to USA. I do wonder if they are not worried about their secrets and capabilities getting into USA and NATO hands?
I have the same feeling.
At a time I even jokingly thought that once the S-400 was delivered to Turkey, that Turkey and the USA would hold a joint press conference where they would explain how smart they outplayed Russia to get access to the latest Russian technology by pretending to have a fit, and that in reality they are actually great friends (who now both have a new toy to analyse).
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botsing wrote:I have the same feeling.
At a time I even jokingly thought that once the S-400 was delivered to Turkey, that Turkey and the USA would hold a joint press conference where they would explain how smart they outplayed Russia to get access to the latest Russian technology by pretending to have a fit, and that in reality they are actually great friends (who now both have a new toy to analyse).
That would be priceless, but it would be easier for US to buy directly from Russia, they said they were ready to sell them the S-400
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hornetfinn wrote:I've really wondered about all this from the Russian PoV. They are selling their most advanced AD system to NATO country with relatively close ties to USA. I do wonder if they are not worried about their secrets and capabilities getting into USA and NATO hands? ...
Or from the Pentagon perspective was Putin fishing for a far more valuable Quid-Pro-Quo? Hence, no soup for you.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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botsing wrote:hornetfinn wrote:I've really wondered about all this from the Russian PoV. They are selling their most advanced AD system to NATO country with relatively close ties to USA. I do wonder if they are not worried about their secrets and capabilities getting into USA and NATO hands?
I have the same feeling.
At a time I even jokingly thought that once the S-400 was delivered to Turkey, that Turkey and the USA would hold a joint press conference where they would explain how smart they outplayed Russia to get access to the latest Russian technology by pretending to have a fit, and that in reality they are actually great friends (who now both have a new toy to analyse).
That also crossed my mind.
But on the other hand the S-400 is (or seems) actually an updated/improved S-300 which is something (S-300) that the US/NATO already have access to. So and looking at this S-400 Turkey deal, I would say that the gains in terms of knowledge that Russia could get regarding the F-35 would far outweigh the gains in knowledge that US/NATO could get regarding the S-400.
Moreover, the F-35 is a piece of hardware far more advanced than the S-400.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call EW and pretend like it’s new.
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ricnunes wrote:That also crossed my mind.
But on the other hand the S-400 is (or seems) actually an updated/improved S-300 which is something (S-300) that the US/NATO already have access to. So and looking at this S-400 Turkey deal, I would say that the gains in terms of knowledge that Russia could get regarding the F-35 would far outweigh the gains in knowledge that US/NATO could get regarding the S-400.
Moreover, the F-35 is a piece of hardware far more advanced than the S-400.
That's very true. S-400 was originally called S-300PM(U)3 as it's basically just an upgrade and not truly a new system. It uses upgraded systems, but still based on same components as S-300. Of course it's more capable than any earlier version, but it's not that huge improvement either over latest S-300 versions.
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