The Turkey problem

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sferrin

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 14:25

tincansailor wrote:Congress needs to get involved, and ban F-35 sales to Turkey, before it's too late. They are on their way out of NATO, and will be joining Russia in an alliance to dived the ME. They will pass on all F-35 technology, to Russia, and China. Trump might as well give an F-35 away to Putin, as a personal gift.


This times a hundred. Iran/F-14 all over again.
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sferrin

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 14:26

optimist wrote:What makes you think he hasn't? Unless people have their head in a bucket of rightwing sand, This whole russia thing with the US stinks. The US was never noted for uncorrupted politicians, but it was domestic, corporate controlled. This takes the cake.


Wow. Damn son, you must buy your tinfoil by the acre.
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sferrin

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 14:29

sunstersun wrote:I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.


They're not so dumb as to not notice WHY they'd be denied to Turkey. All the "optics" show is that a member decided to change sides midway. Only a fool would follow through selling them their best technology.
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steve2267

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 15:10

mtrman, can you answer a few questions?

1) Which is more important to Turkey? S-400 or F-35?

2) Why does Turkey announce intentions to purchase S-400? That is, why does Turkey want S-400?

3) Does Turkey understand that her purchase of S-400 is incompatible, from American point of view, with purchase of F-35?

4) If Turkey does purchase S-400, and is subsequently denied F-35, will Turkey remain a valuable NATO member?
Take an F-16, stir in a little A-7, bake, then sprinkle on a generous helping of F-117. What do you get? An F-35.
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durahawk

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 15:49

sferrin wrote:
tincansailor wrote:Congress needs to get involved, and ban F-35 sales to Turkey, before it's too late. They are on their way out of NATO, and will be joining Russia in an alliance to dived the ME. They will pass on all F-35 technology, to Russia, and China. Trump might as well give an F-35 away to Putin, as a personal gift.


This times a hundred. Iran/F-14 all over again.


As someone who has personally written multiple members of that dismally incompetent body of legislature over this very issue and have yet to see a single response, (not even the usual vague canned one) I have little hope of Congress actually getting involved here.

The Amendment proposed to the NDAA this summer apparently didn’t get a single vote
thehill.com/policy/defense/341047-lawmakers-propose-halting-f-35-sale-visas-after-turkish-embassy-fight

My best guess is that this sale has way too much momentum to stop it at this point, and the geopolitical fallout/defense lobbyists have made this issue a third rail to even discuss. Why should the defense industry care? You would think that any exploitation of F-35 technology would be untenable to LM/Pratt/Northrop as it could jeopardize some of those juicy FMS orders not yet on the books. On the other hand (cynicism on), maybe they want the sale to go through and, after all, they stand to gain more than they lose from exploited technology in the form of an insurance guarantee on 6th generation fighter sales. Rinse and repeat.
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mtrman

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 19:47

steve2267 wrote:mtrman, can you answer a few questions?

1) Which is more important to Turkey? S-400 or F-35?

2) Why does Turkey announce intentions to purchase S-400? That is, why does Turkey want S-400?

3) Does Turkey understand that her purchase of S-400 is incompatible, from American point of view, with purchase of F-35?

4) If Turkey does purchase S-400, and is subsequently denied F-35, will Turkey remain a valuable NATO member?


Steve,
1) As somebody who is following military aviation and almost everything related with it since teenages, I would answer as F-35, without hesitation...

2) I really don't know and understand... May be to give the US a signal that we are really disappointed and upset because of their back-stabbing of us (PKK/YPG and Gulen). But in technical terms, this purchase give us almost nothing, but a lot of headache. Even if the Russians give fully-functional (not a downgraded one) batteries, we all know that this is not enough. Without any well designed umbrella of IADS, they will be just hard targets that can be taken out with a few well planned SEAD/DEAD missions.

3) We have an army who is almost fully integrated with NATO and western world from very beginning. So I assume at least they really know. But I suspect how well they succeed to show the complete big picture to the politicians.

4) Of course yes. But it would be a big suffer for Turkey to be denied from F-35 both in militarily and politically...

At the end of the day, what I can say is: Turkey should't take such meaningless moves like S-400 purchase, but Turkey should carry out more information campaigns to tell US and German people that how we are being physically and ideologically hurted by their governments actions (PKK/YPG and Gulen)...
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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 20:14

Are you serious? You can't answer my previous claim, but continue talk about all-nations??? Even go back to the 2nd WW?? Are you critisizing Turkey for staying neutral (which was not strong and rich at that times to hold a war with Nazis)?

The above quote did address your previous claim. Being a bridge between continents, and controlling trade routes is an advantage. Yes there has been 70 years of wars in the region, and Turkey hasn't been involved in any of them, till the current conflict in Syria. Has Turkey accepted massive refuge populations from earlier wars? No.

As for WWII after the Germans invaded Russia, and certainly after Stalingrad, they were in no position to attack Turkey. All Turkey would have had to do was stop selling Chromite to Germany. If they had cut off Chromite sales in Jan 1943 German steel production would have ended in mid 1944. Instead Turkey sold to both sides. The allies were buying Turkish Chromite along with agricultural goods to keep it out of German hands. The trade only stopped when the Soviets occupied the Balkans, and cut the land route between Germany, and Turkey in the summer of 1944.

Turkey made a mint out of WWII getting arms, money, and economic assistance from both sides. They also had mutual defense pacts with both sides. If Turkey had joined the war say in late 1943, the Balkans Countries might have avoided 40 years of being trapped behind the Iron Curtain.

[
b]Do not need to talk about your full ignorance about Turkey and NATO cooperation for the last 60 years. But;


Yes Turkey was a good NATO ally for a lot of the Cold War. They fought in Korea, but nowhere else, and were a troublesome ally on many occasions. Post Cold War they have been a lot of trouble. Turkey is mad that NATO hasn't helped then kill Kurds, or intimidate Greeks. True a lot of the problems in Syria have been caused by Obama's inaction, but Turkey siring the ethnic pot isn't helping.

- They first seized land from Arabs and Turkmens, horribly changed the demographics of this region, and then gave those lands to the pure marxist/communist/terroris PKK/PYD. What a success?????? I congratulate your brainmasters... Only a Satan/Evil would have execute such a succesful plan...
You hit not two, perhaps 4-5 birds by using one stone....[/b]

Again what you complaining about is that the Kurds gained some land, and autonomy.


- Cyprus??? Just make some simple search and learn what happened in the Cyprus...

Turkey is the only country in the world that accepts it justification for what it did. Every other country on Earth regards what the Turks did as an act of unprovoked aggression.

- Are you talking about our Kurdish origin brothers? Even though the Turkish and Kurdish people are like brothers who shared the same history and territories for 1000 years, and have the very same Islam religion, the same deep-state in Turkey also supressed some of their rights for many years. But do you know what Erdogan done? He gave the many rights back to them. Do you need me to send you news, articles, documents about those facts? Sorry, even you can find them very easily by using Google.

The Kurds are indigenes to the region, for thousands of years. The Turks arrived in the area about a thousand years ago, coming from central Asia. They conquered the Kurds, Greeks, and other people living in the Anatolian region. They have a mixed record of relations with their neighbors. In the last 100 years they have expelled the Greeks, exterminated the Armenians, and oppressed the Kurds. Erdogan has made war on his Kurds, partly because he needs enemies to justify his oppression of the rest of his subjects. How can the Kurds have political rights when no one else in the country does?

[/quote][/quote]Every time you try to distribute your false claims, I will try to inform the others about the facts.

Unfortunately, my country doesn't know anything about telling truth to the world. We don't succeed at establising channels like RT, CNN or PressTV. You succeed to distrupt the facts and show the black as white to the world. But my country does almost nothing to show white as white. So it is up to the individuals like me to spare time and effort to answer some ignorants like you...[/quote]

Turkey's record is a hard sell. The Germans have repented for their sins of the Holocaust. Turkey can't even admit to carrying out the Armenian Genocide. It's better that they join with Russia, then NATO. Russia doesn't care about any moral considerations, the only thing that matters is raw naked power. You can be a dictatorship, attack your neighbors, lie about your past, or anything else you find convenient.
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mas

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Unread post22 Nov 2017, 12:22

https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2017/11/275815.htm

Okay, Ilhan. Go right ahead.

QUESTION: Thank you. On Turkey. There is a gold trader whose name is Reza Zarrab who has been arrested for 18 months, and his case – his trial is about to start next week. It’s a judicial process, but Turkish President Erdogan and many of leading figures from the governing party have been talking about it. And just today Turkish president said it is a plot against Turkey, and he said that this is something – this case – something cooked the same trick up in United States as it happened in Turkey. There’s a court action case. Are you trying to cook a plot against Turkey? What’s your response?

MS NAUERT: We’ve heard that story, that old same song and dance from Turkey before, and I would have to give you the same answer as last time they accused us of trying to foment some sort of a coup. And I would say that is ridiculous. We are not engaged in that. Anything related to that particular case, I’d just have to refer you to the Department of Justice.

QUESTION: On that --

MS NAUERT: Yeah.

QUESTION: Heather, can I have a follow-up with you?

MS NAUERT: Go ahead.

QUESTION: Turkey is a NATO ally. At what point do these sort of statements and this war of words – I mean, you yourself said this was ridiculous. At what point does that lead the U.S. to sort of reassess its relationship and its alliance with Turkey and set out some sort of change in that relationship?

MS NAUERT: Well, as we’ve seen this year, there are some countries where we have – our relationship with these countries can ebb and flow sometimes. You have – like a marriage. You have a good day and sometimes you have a bad day, right?

QUESTION: Okay. (Laughter.)

MS NAUERT: And so somebody may say something that later they regret saying. They are a NATO member. They are a valued ally of the United States. We have had a strong relationship with Turkey. But really, just making comments about the United States trying to foment a coup is just – is simply ridiculous. And I think they recognize – I think they recognize that as well.
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nutshell

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Unread post22 Nov 2017, 12:38

Turks that talks about "backstabbing" :lmao: :lmao:
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jakobs

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Unread post22 Nov 2017, 14:43

I don't really see Turkey leaving Nato or being kicked out, but I think they should not receive any F-35's if they go through with the purchase of the S-400. Such a big step away need to have consequences.
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Unread post22 Nov 2017, 15:54

jakobs wrote:I don't really see Turkey leaving Nato or being kicked out, but I think they should not receive any F-35's if they go through with the purchase of the S-400. Such a big step away need to have consequences.


According to the Turkish defense minister Nurettin Canikli, first systems of S-400 to be delivered in turkey in 2019. Todays article...
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/first- ... ter-122855
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mas

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Unread post22 Nov 2017, 20:35

According to the Sultan the West is actively trying to undermine Islamic nations and peoples. Is this the voice of an ally or a dangerous fruit and nutcase ?

https://www.rt.com/news/410669-erdogan- ... t-muslims/

p.s. this guy stole the last election he won to give him more executive powers with ballot box stuffing of unregistered votes.
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durahawk

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Unread post22 Nov 2017, 21:00

mas wrote:According to the Sultan the West is actively trying to undermine Islamic nations and peoples. Is this the voice of an ally or a dangerous fruit and nutcase ?

https://www.rt.com/news/410669-erdogan- ... t-muslims/

p.s. this guy stole the last election he won to give him more executive powers with ballot box stuffing of unregistered votes.


Russian RT propaganda at its finest... They want to drive a wedge between Turkey and the EU/US/NATO and are not even trying to hide it.
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mas

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Unread post22 Nov 2017, 21:10

The original (needs translating) does not sound any different.

President Erdogan said, "A dirty scenario is being implemented to destroy the unity, coexistence, wealth, all-important future of the Islamic world."

http://aa.com.tr/tr/gunun-basliklari/cu ... yor/973820
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Nov 2017, 08:52

Turkey is up-set over a number of things.....Yet, that doesn't mean she wants to leave NATO or cut her ties with the WEST.
:doh:
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