The Turkey problem

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a-10_thunderbolt

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Unread post14 Jul 2019, 22:50

duplex wrote:
My prediction is that the dictator Erdogan will tell the US ' go to hell' and will take delivery of S-400's with an option to buy even more and also order the Russian SU-35 and even SU-57 .. Putin will of course be delighted.. Just a thought ...
lets wait and see..

The US still gives hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to Turkey, and has given billions of dollars to them in the past.

It's time to at least cut the aid budget to them, now that they (or at least their current Islamist dictator) do not seem to be grateful for all the help they received, even though the aid they received from the US and Europe is one of the main things that has helped to alleviate their previously third world conditions.

Why do we still give so much free aid and charity to an Islamist (Erdogan)-ruled country?
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 01:38

The US just needs to announce that they will offer the F-35 to Greece..... :wink:
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a-10_thunderbolt

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 04:01

Corsair1963 wrote:The US just needs to announce that they will offer the F-35 to Greece..... :wink:

We need to do a thousand times more to support the Kurds, including with military support (sadly, it doesn't seem like Trump is interested in this, but one day it will happen).
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loke

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 08:00

Not only the US is unhappy with an F-35 partner buying the S-400. Norway is fully in line with the US on this question, and I am sure so are also the other F-35 partners.


Norway has also made it clear through the F-35 program that Turkey is undesirable as a partner if the S-400 is rolled out in the country. Turkey is scheduled to receive the first deliveries of the missiles and the associated radar installations, during July.

-It is obvious that making the F-35 program vulnerable, it is that none of the partners that are interested in, "said defence minister Frank Hill-Jensen told VG in Brussels on Wednesday afternoon.


Auto translated from https://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/i/Ad ... programmet
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loke

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 08:10

polarbear wrote:When I wrote US is running a proxy war in Turkey and we expect escalation in covert action; somebody cosidered me to be a madman to make such a claim. US government did not disappoint us on that claim either.

https://odatv.com/orman-yanginlarinin-a ... 71901.html

In summary, PKK claimed responsibility for forest fires in western turkey. They are your pet; you feed them, you arm them, you set them loose. It caused a massive upheveal here, even their civilian front is forced to condemn the action. We were expecting something below waistline, but arsoning forests is simply gross.

Nobody is innocent in the ME, and definitely not Turkey.

Turkey armed and supported islamist groups in Syria, some of which later devolved into IS. The growth of IS, and lack of support from Turkey to fight them in the early stages, were some of the reasons why the US had to partner with YPG. I have it from reliable sources that the US made a real effort to find reliable and "politically acceptable" partners in Syria, people they could make a long-term alliance with. Alas they could not find any such groups in Syria that also had the capacity to fight the IS. The rapid growth of IS and the lack of support from Turkey forced the US into the arms of the YPG, who did a great job in fighting the IS.

There are many ironies here, on multiple levels...
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spazsinbad

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 12:28

Pentagon Does Not Change Stance On Turkey S-400 Buy
12 Jul 2019 Steve Trimble, Lee Hudson and Tony Osborne

"...At the last minute, the Defense Department withdrew plans July 12 to hold a press conference in response to the confirmed delivery of the first components of the contentious Russian air defense system in Turkey. The White House and State Department also released no statements and gave no press briefings on the issue.

Turkish National Defense Minister Hulusi Akar told Esper his nation remains under a serious air and missile threat and the purchase of the S-400 was not just an option, but a necessity. Turkey still is assessing whether it will purchase the U.S. Patriot system [SPY v SPY on competing missile systems & not just the 'S-400 agin F-35'? COME ON] and Hulusi emphasized Turkey is a partner in the F-35 program and is willing to establish a joint working group on the possible interaction of the fighter jet and the Russian air defense system....

...According to Turkey’s Anadolu news agency, the deliveries are being split, with the system being airlifted and the missiles arriving by sea....

...In a statement, NATO officials said that while it is up to allies what military equipment they choose to buy, “we are concerned about the potential consequences of Turkey’s decision to acquire the S-400 system. Interoperability of our armed forces is fundamental to NATO for the conduct of our operations and mission. “We welcome that Turkey is working with several allies on developing long-range air and missile defense systems,” NATO officials said in an emailed statement.…" [WAIT... WUT?!]

Source: https://aviationweek.com/defense/pentag ... -s-400-buy
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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aussiebloke

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 12:58

spazsinbad wrote:
“We welcome that Turkey is working with several allies on developing long-range air and missile defense systems,” NATO officials said in an emailed statement.[/b]…" [WAIT... WUT?!]


Perhaps a reference to these talks?
Aselsan and Roketsan are in talks with Franco-Italian company Eurosam for the co-production of its SAMP/T system in Turkey. The talks are ongoing under a conceptual definition contract with the European producer.


https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... se-system/
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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 21:11

Turkish S-400s Create ‘New Order’ In Mid East Airspace
15 Jul 2019 Arie Egozi

"An Israeli expert said that the critical question is, where will the Turks deploy the Russian system. "If it is deployed near the border with Syria it may endanger air forces that will attack Iranian controlled militias in Iraq," the Israeli source says.

...An Israeli expert said that the critical question is, where will the Turks deploy the Russian system. “If it is deployed near the border with Syria it may endanger air forces that will attack Iranian controlled militias in Iraq,” this source says. The expert added that the Israeli air force and every other air force that may be involved in operations against Iran or its proxies will now have to train to cope with the S-400, widely considered one of the world’s most formidable surface to air weapons.

Israeli experts who talked on condition of anonymity said that the situation will become critical if and when Russian forces leave Syria. “The S-400 operated by Turkey will be capable of following any activity of the IAF over Syria, and that is a totally new situation” one of the experts said. And the purchase, Israelis noted, creates complex problems for the United States. “Turkey spat today in the U.S face,” one Israeli source said.

A former commander of the Israeli Air Force who asked not to be named, said that the Turkish S-400s create immediate problems for NATO: “Do you think that the Russians will agree to share one of their most advanced technologies with NATO? I’m sure that this is not a possibility.”...

...According to Turkish columnist Burak Bekdil about half of Turkey’s network-based air defense was paid for by NATO, and Turkey is part of NATO’s Air Defense Ground Environment. In a paper written for the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies in Israel, Bekdil writes that without NATO’s consent it will be impossible for Ankara to operate any non-NATO system, especially a Russian one...."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2019/07/tur ... -airspace/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 21:30

US Could Use Turkish F-35 Parts Contracts to Entice New Customers
15 Jul 2019 Marcus Weisgerber

"Ankara is on track to forfeit work worth billions of dollars if it is booted from the F-35 program.

If the United States ejects Turkey from the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, it would gain new enticements to help sell the stealth fighter jet to other allies. That’s because contracts for the 900-plus F-35 parts currently made in Turkey could be offered to countries that are considering buying the jet, such as Canada, Finland, Switzerland and Spain. It’s common practice for U.S. arms manufacturers to sweeten export deals by offering potential customers manufacturing and co-production work and even technological know-how....

...Last month, Ellen Lord, defense undersecretary for acquisition and sustainment, said that JSF program officials with the Pentagon and lead contractor Lockheed Martin had secured backup suppliers for the F-35 parts made in Turkey. “[T]hey’re predominantly U.S. sources,” Lord said at a June 7 briefing at the Pentagon. “That’s not to say we won’t continue to do what we always do with good program management and look for other sources, because we would like to have second, third sources for most of the items.”..." [more at the jump - quotes from ULMER]

Source: https://www.defenseone.com/business/201 ... rs/158404/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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polarbear

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 22:52

Let me correct a few mistakes before proceeding further:

https://bianet.org/bianet/siyaset/16572 ... den-isid-e

In this link there is the history of isis. In short, it is a mercenary company composed of turncoats and useful idiots recruited from US prison camps in iraq. It is under command of US army like PKK; which is another mercenary company running on drug and ransom money till US began to pay, train and supply them. Their mock fight is providing a flimsy pretext for US presence in syria; often they are caught cooperating. The link gives one of these incidents:
https://www.yeniasya.com.tr/dunya/isid- ... yor_486337
It tells the story of bomb truck caught at Hatay before exploding, paid by pkk, manned and built by isis. Isis units, when hard pressed, always retreat to pkk controlled areas. In short, there is no US+PKK vs ISIS fight in syria; but a US+PKK+ISIS vs (syrian army + russian support) + local militia + iranian auxiliaries battle. So "turkish reluctace to involve in syria boosted isis" is pure fallacy; as I wrote earlier, your pets, your responsibility.

Before the collapse of Libya we had strict "no involvement" policy unless neighbour is unable to control its territory and it becomes a haven for terrorists. Seeing easy victory in Libya and ignoring all warnings; Erdoğan and Davutoğlu (mad imam's catpaw, suspected CIA asset) found out an ex-general (retired early on the grounds of islamic supremacism); have some of syrians and adventurers (useful idiots) trained (badly) and equipped (badly). When Centcom invaded syria with isis and pkk; these idiots also went in. Militarily they achieved little. The result was chaos inside syria with approx. 4m refugees within our orders. Turkish army was forced to intervene; at first covertly then overtly organizing disciplined militias based on former syrian army personnel to create a safe zone. Turkish army trained militias are either integrated into syrian army or defending their areas. But Davutoğlu's mercenaries deserted and joined ISIS making Erdoğan laughing stock of Ankara. The result: Nobody will dare even suggesting to join US schemes for a long time.

US may choose to deal with petty bandits, but do not expect to be treated as honorable or respectable people when you keep such awful company.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post15 Jul 2019, 23:25

Is there a "Report Post for being an Conspiracy Theorist" option? :doh:
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Tiger05

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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 16:04

SpudmanWP wrote:Is there a "Report Post for being an Conspiracy Theorist" option? :doh:


Sadly his crackpot views are symptomatic of a problem plaguing Turkey. Conspiracy theories are rife in Turkish society:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspirac ... _in_Turkey (yes it is from Wiki but it is an interesting read and well backed by sources)

Many Turks truly seem to believe that the West (and especially the US) is out to get Turkey. However, in their mind, Turkey is always pure, innocent and beyond reproach. :roll: Blame it on low education, an overly self-centered view of the world and delusions of past grandeur.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 16:31

Tiger05 wrote:Blame it on low education, an overly self-centered view of the world and delusions of past grandeur.

This part sounds like America, coming from an American.
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 19:04

SpudmanWP wrote:Is there a "Report Post for being an Conspiracy Theorist" option? :doh:


I imagine that you're being sarcastic but in case you aren't then you could do the following:
1- Click "Report this post" button
2- In the "Report this post" page, select: "The reported message does not fit into any other category, please use the further information field".
3- In the "further information" field type the reason. For example, you could type something like this: "The user is trolling resorting to Conspiracy Theories" or something along those lines.

:wink:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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elshad

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Unread post16 Jul 2019, 20:44

One problem with the rise of conspiracy theories in Turkey is that the opposition (secularists etc.) do almost nothing to counter it, and in many cases pander to the crazies because they think it will suit them politically. That's why there are very few politicians left in Turkey who actively defend its historical ties with the U.S., NATO, West etc. You can see it in instances where the opposition absurdly claim that Erdoğan is a puppet of the U.S. and Israel, in order to appeal to the anti-American vote.
Last edited by elshad on 16 Jul 2019, 21:56, edited 1 time in total.
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