The Turkey problem

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ricnunes

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Unread post07 Jul 2019, 14:07

falcon.16 wrote:So, Erdogan does not know nothing about airplanes or other systems, for him all will be same, but he takes decitions about all that, when all these decitions should be taken only by militar officials.

This is a problem who erdogan built and westerm countries can not do nothing.


I also fully agree with you.
Regarding the part above that I quoted, I would dare say that was probably one of the reasons for the (failed) 2016 military coup d'etat in Turkey.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post11 Jul 2019, 19:35

The TURKEY S-400 never arrives even when loaded. "I think I can I think I can I think I can" THOMAS the S-400 whatnot.
Erdogan says Russia kicks off delivery operation for S-400 missile system
08 Jul 2019 TASS

"According to the Turkish leader, the Russian system will have a positive effect on the security of the entire region

ANKARA, July 8. /TASS/. Preparations continue to dispatch Russian-made S-400 air defense missile system to Turkey and an operation to load them onto a transport plane is underway, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan announced at a news conference on Monday.

"The preparations for the dispatch [of S-400 system] continue. The loading is underway. There are agreed dates for S-400 deliveries," the Turkish president said.

According to Erdogan, "the National Defense Ministry is currently planning and selecting a site for the deployment of S-400." The Turkish leader said he was sure that the Russian-made S-400 missile system would have a positive effect on the security of both Turkey and the entire region.

The Turkish - Haberturk reported on Friday, citing sources, that the shipment of the Russian-made S-400 anti-aircraft missile system to Turkey could begin on July 7. According to the -’s data, the first S-400 system was due to be loaded onto a transport plane to be delivered next week.

Haberturk also reported that nine Russian technical specialists would arrive in Turkey before Monday to help deploy S-400 missile system. During the first stage, one S-400 set will be delivered to Ankara, the - reported.

Head of Turkey’s Defense Industries Directorate Ismail Demir stated on Thursday that the S-400 deliveries might begin next week. The Russian side did not name the exact date for the commencement of the deliveries...."

Source: https://tass.com/defense/1067510
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Unread post11 Jul 2019, 19:58

Turkey Must Drop Russian S-400 to Stay in F-35 Program, DOD Official Says
10 Jul 2019 Jim Garamone

"The Department of Defense will remove Turkey from the F-35 joint strike fighter program if the nation accepts delivery of the Russian S-400 air defense system, a senior Defense Department official said.

Meeting with think tank representatives at the Pentagon, Katie Wheelbarger, the acting assistant secretary of defense for international security affairs, said the NATO alliance and nations partnering in developing and fielding the F-35 are unified in their opposition to Turkey fielding the Russian system.

The concern is that the S-400 could be used to gather data on the capabilities of the F-35, and that the information could end up in Russian hands, officials explained....

...Wheelbarger said Turkey's assertion that it bought the S-400 because it could not get a comparable air defense system is not true. "We offered the opportunity to them to buy the Patriot [air defense system] numerous times in a more generous package than we've offered anybody else, and they did not sign up for it," she said.

Acting Defense Secretary Dr. Mark T. Esper met with his Turkish counterpart, Defense Minister Hulusi Akar, at the recent NATO defense ministers meeting, and told him that Turkey is not going to get the F-35 if the nation continues with the S-400, Wheelbarger said, noting that the U.S. stand has bipartisan support.

It is not only the United States telling Turkey the two systems are incompatible, she pointed out. All partner nations in the F-35 program have made the same point to the Turks, Wheelbarger said, and all NATO nations have asked Turkey to stop the procurement as well...."

Source: https://www.defense.gov/explore/story/A ... cial-says/
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pron

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Unread post12 Jul 2019, 12:26

Delivery of S-400 to Ankara have started.

First RuAF AN-124 have been in Ankara, and the Defence Minister confirms the delivery.

https://twitter.com/ItayBlumental/statu ... 9707753472
https://twitter.com/tcsavunma/status/11 ... 7319924737

Let's hope all F-35 delivery to Turkey now are a yesterday story, and that Trump don't any strange things
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Unread post12 Jul 2019, 12:33

Control center equipment has arrived. We are waiting for "sanctions". It will give us more excuses to totally get rid of Gahlen's legacy.

https://www.trthaber.com/haber/gundem/s ... 22862.html
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Unread post12 Jul 2019, 17:38

Despite US warnings, Russian S-400 systems land in Turkey
12 Jul 2019 Suzan Frazer

"...A Defense Ministry statement said "the first group of equipment" of the S-400 air defense systems has reached the Murted Air Base near the capital, Ankara. The delivery of parts of the system will continue in the coming days and authorities will decide "how it will be used" once the system is made operational, Turkey's defense industry authority said in a statement....

...Turkey has refused to say where it intends to deploy the S-400. Turkish media reports have said it could take until October for the system to be fully operational."

Source: https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... in-turkey/
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Unread post12 Jul 2019, 19:25

Send Turkey’s F-35s to Eastern Europe
12 Jul 2019 Peter Apps

"If Putin is going to send S-400 air-defense systems to Ankara, NATO should send advanced fighter jets where they can deter Russia....

...Yes, Russian-operated air defense systems (in particular, in Syria) are almost certainly already attempting to probe and understand its secrets. But letting what was once America’s closest Mideast ally fly the jets repeatedly in training against the Russian system would deliver far more insight than anyone would want.

The United States and its allies—including Britain, with all its distractions—must be clear-eyed about what has happened here. Russian President Vladimir Putin’s offer to sell the system to Turkish counterpart Tayyip Erdogan was a deliberately mischievous move to undermine the NATO alliance. It is part of a wider strategy that includes fostering the far right, promoting conspiracy theories, and raising the spectre of the 20th century’s worst political nightmares. It has included a military intervention in Syria that has allowed Russia to test its weapons while inflicting catastrophic human harm. And, of course, Russia’s resurrected military is going out of its way to intimidate the neighborhood in a way not seen since the Cold War.

In this case, Putin’s gambit has succeeded—and there may not be much the West can do to stop it. Turkey will lose money, influence, and access to aircraft it clearly genuinely wanted. But there needs to be a next move when it comes to Russia. Putin must be made to feel a cost—ideally without doing anything that catastrophically further escalates tensions.

Luckily, there is a relatively simple answer. The F-35s already earmarked for Turkey, I believe, should be sent somewhere else to Russia’s near-abroad, where they can worry Moscow’s planners and reassure America’s European allies. That means sending them to Eastern Europe, perhaps at a concessionary rate....

...The easiest option, though, might be Poland. In May, Warsaw formally expressed interest in buying 32 F-35s to replace its own aging Soviet jets. Given his closer-than-usual relations with Poland’s right-wing government, that is a deal President Donald Trump might genuinely enjoy doing. It would also send an unambiguous message to Moscow that the cost of their dealings with Turkey is the built-up defense of NATO states Russia once dominated...."

Source: https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/0 ... pe/158382/
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Unread post13 Jul 2019, 01:17

Turkey has the S-400. The Trump administration is silent.
12 Jul 2019 Aaron Mehta

"WASHINGTON — After months of threatening quick, severe action against Turkey should Ankara accept the Russian-made S-400 air defense system, the Trump administration has yet to react to the delivery of the weapon system....

...The Pentagon initially called an 11:15 AM press briefing to discuss the S-400 retaliation. It was then switched to 1:45, then postponed indefinitely. A defense official told reporters that Acting Secretary of Defense Mark Esper spoke with his Turkish counterpart for half an hour during the afternoon, but said there will be no readout from the call. There has been no statement issued from the White House or State Department....

...While the administration has yet to respond, Congressional leaders were vocal Friday. In a joint statement Friday afternoon, the bipartisan leadership of the Senate defense and foreign relations committees said “there must be consequences” for Turkey accepting the S-400.

“We urge President Trump to fully implement sanctions as required by law under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act,” they said in the statement. “Additionally, while all F-35 material deliveries remain indefinitely suspended, we call on the Department of Defense to proceed with the termination of Turkey’s participation in the F-35 program.”...

...The U.S. actions against Turkey with the F-35 are a bilateral issue, but questions now arise about how the S-400 delivery will impact the relationship between Ankara and NATO.

Jim Townsend, a former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Europe now with the Center for a New American Security, noted that there are often political disagreements inside the NATO alliance. But the potential of the S-400 fight is a different level that “actually undercuts” the alliance military capability, he said.

“This isn’t something you can negotiate around,” Townsend said. “This is a big deal, where action has to be taken. It will confront NATO with a political problem that is pretty unique, in the sense of, what do you do with a NATO ally that has taken actions to weaken the military capability of the alliance? How do you deal with that?”

But while the alliance may be getting caught in the “frag pattern” of the fight between the U.S. and Turkey, Townsend also sees it as unlikely that Turkey would leave the alliance, nor be pushed out (legally, NATO experts say, there is no mechanism to force a state out of the alliance.)

And he sees a potential path forward where Turkey can claim a political victory while walking back the S-400 purchase, if the U.S. and other allies will allow it: that Turkey accepts the S-400 deliveries but leaves everything crated up in a warehouse while reopening U.S. negotiations, eventually leading to an agreement with the S-400 never set up.

“Delivery is starting. It hasn’t ended yet. Once delivery is done, these things will stay in crates until Russian technicians come in to help set it up. Then the Turkish forces need training. So there are a lot of steps for this,” Townsend said. “NATO has to come up with something that helps Erdogan get out of this corner. And the question is, will NATO be patient, or will they be too mad?”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/20 ... is-silent/
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Unread post13 Jul 2019, 04:55

Stories are all similar however these are interesting tidbits...
Will Trump Keep Turkey In F-35 Program? Washington Mum on Russian S-400 Delivery
12 Jul 2019 Paul McLeary

"...In a show of bipartisan agreement Friday afternoon, the Republican and Democratic leaders of the Senate Armed Services and Foreign Relations committees issued a joint statement, reinforcing the sense of the Senate that Turkey should suffer consequences for buying the Russian system that NATO has long maintained puts its pilots at risk.

“On a strong bipartisan basis, Congress has made it clear that there must be consequences for President Erdogan’s misguided S-400 acquisition, a troubling signal of strategic alignment with Putin’s Russia and a threat to the F-35 program. As a result, we urge President Trump to fully implement sanctions as required by law.”

Sens. Jim Inhofe and Jack Reed, along with Jim Risch and Bob Menendez, called on the Department of Defense “to proceed with the termination of Turkey’s participation in the F-35 program.”

... Pentagon reprogramming documents submitted to Congress this month, the military asked for approval to reprogram $206 million to support the effort to find new sources for the Turkish-made parts in F-35 aircraft. “The department is already taking steps to establish alternate sources of F-35 components to protect from potential disruption of current sources,” the Pentagon wrote."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2019/07/wil ... -delivery/
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Unread post13 Jul 2019, 10:11

Another detail: Thank you Turkey.
Over US Warnings, Turkey Gets Russian-Made S-400 Missile System
12 Jul 2019 Oriana Pawlyk

"...Despite the issues, Luke still accepted the third and fourth F-35 jets for the Turkish pilot training program at the 63rd Fighter Squadron in April. Those jets will remain at the base for the time being, a Defense Department official told Military.com on Friday...."

Source: https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... ystem.html
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Unread post13 Jul 2019, 11:58

Delivery of S-400 missile systems is continuing, Turkish National Defense Ministry said on Saturday.

Delivery of S-400 Long Range Air and Missile Defense Systems resumed today. The fourth Russian plane carrying S-400 parts landed at Murted Airport outside Ankara, the ministry said on Twitter.
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Unread post14 Jul 2019, 13:10

Recall the 1990s Cyprus missile crisis where Cyprus ordered S300 systems from Soviet Russia to balance Tyrkeys military superiority on the island. Turkey fiercly opposed the deal and threatend to blockade and bomb the island.

Like Turkey today, Cyprus then argued that acquiring the missiles was a question of national sovereignty.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1998/dec/31/3
Turkish officials argue that deploying a major Russian weapons system within Nato's borders is a bad idea because Russian technicians will have to help set up the system and the missile radar will allow Russia to monitor Nato activity throughout the eastern Mediterranean.


Cyprus in the end backed down due to international pressure and the missiles were moved to the Greek island of Crete - also opposed by the Turks - and the missiles were, in principle, mothballed until reactivation in 2013.
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Unread post14 Jul 2019, 13:56

Keep in mind that Turkey signed a deal to buy HQ-9 (over S-400) in 2013 but later cancelled it:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31537334

Turks seem to be hell bent on acquiring missile tech. No idea why they value it more than F-35 or potential membership in NATO. Looks like they think Bosphorus is so important that they get a free pass.
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Unread post14 Jul 2019, 22:02

When I wrote US is running a proxy war in Turkey and we expect escalation in covert action; somebody cosidered me to be a madman to make such a claim. US government did not disappoint us on that claim either.

https://odatv.com/orman-yanginlarinin-a ... 71901.html

In summary, PKK claimed responsibility for forest fires in western turkey. They are your pet; you feed them, you arm them, you set them loose. It caused a massive upheveal here, even their civilian front is forced to condemn the action. We were expecting something below waistline, but arsoning forests is simply gross.
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Unread post14 Jul 2019, 22:41

Hopefully, Turkey are not just removed from the program, but also sanctioned.

However, it seems that Trump is quite weak in front of Erdogan, and it's unlikely the sanctions against Turkey will be very heavy.

Really, Turkey should be sanctioned for multiple different reasons, including their behaviour to the Kurds, and their support to enemies of NATO, and the fact Erdogan is an Islamist dictator.
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