The Turkey problem

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elshad

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Unread post01 Jul 2019, 08:08

Yeni Şafak Is one of the worst propaganda outlets in Turkey.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post02 Jul 2019, 00:56

Honestly, I still believe India and Turkey will work out a deal with the US over the S-400. Regardless, what the media would like us to believe....

:?
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smsgtmac

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Unread post03 Jul 2019, 01:10

spazsinbad wrote::doh: QUALITY comment from a :roll: 'turkey': viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55446&p=421709&hilit=general+Turkey#p421709
Does Turkey really want the F-35 fighter jets?
12 Jun 2019 Nedret Ersanel
Source: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/columns/ne ... ts-2047065


I get and appreciate the QUALITY sarcasm, Spaz. :salute:

I read that article earlier. It read like "No no no! I'm breaking up with her, she's not leaving me!".

Seriously, the only thing wrong here is that Erdogan needs to be 'Erdogone' and it looks like a growing number of Turks feel the same way. I just hope Erdogan is smarter than most megalomaniacs and backs out of the limelight before things go TOO far down the road. Democratic populations are slow to rouse but when they do they can turn into vengeful mobs real fast.
--The ultimate weapon is the mind of man.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 Jul 2019, 01:17

'smsgtmac' said above:
"...Democratic populations are slow to rouse but when they do they can turn into vengeful mobs real fast."


Just look at Hong Kong today (well it used to be Brit Demo gone to CHINA now just DEMOs in parliament no less).

Hong Kong protesters storm government building over China extradition bill 01 Jul 2019

https://edition.cnn.com/asia/live-news/ ... index.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post03 Jul 2019, 10:15

Despite Turkey's assurances, U.S. still eyes sanctions, F-35 exit

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... jrdqVzrVpw
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Jul 2019, 01:05

SLOW MOTION INDEED.... with a bit of the PROPER GANDER for the TURKEY? Erdoğan SLOWS THE ROLL - - - - - - - - - OUT.
S-400 batteries planned to be deployed in Ankara, southeastern Turkey
03 Jul 2019 DAILY SABAH

"Turkey is prepared to receive the Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile defense system in two weeks, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan announced during his visit to Japan for the G20 Osaka summit. Last week, ruling Justice and Development Party (AK Party) spokesperson Ömer Çelik also said the places where S-400 will be deployed have been determined without revealing further details.

According to the information obtained from the security sources, the first of the two S-400 batteries Turkey will receive will be located in Akıncı Air Base in the capital province of Ankara. Akıncı was the command base for putschist soldiers during the coup attempt that took place three years ago in July 2016. The second S-400 battery will reportedly be placed in a strategically important location in the eastern and southeastern region of Turkey, yet the reports have not been confirmed....

...However, the air of tension has recently been toned down at a meeting between Erdoğan and U.S. President Donald Trump. The U.S. president pinned the blame for the row between the U.S. and Turkey over the S-400 deal and F-35 jets on former President Barack Obama, saying it was not Erdoğan's fault. Trump said it was Obama's administration that did not allow Ankara to buy Patriot missiles.

"They [Obama administration] wouldn't sell it to him [Erdoğan]; they wouldn't let him buy the missile he wanted to buy which is the Patriot. And after he buys something else, they tell him we will sell you the Patriot," Trump said.

Tensions between the U.S. and Turkey have reached a fever pitch in recent months with Ankara set to begin receiving the advanced Russian surface-to-air missile system in two months…." [wut?]

Source: https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2019 ... ern-turkey
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Jul 2019, 10:13

Turkey Stockpiles Crucial Weapons Parts, Anticipating U.S. Sanctions
02 Jul 2019 Selcan Hacaoglu

"...NATO member Turkey is determined to acquire ballistic missile technology, and aims to co-produce the next generation of the S-400, the officials added, citing discussions with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Erdogan said his country will take delivery of the S-400 within days.

“The first batch of S-400s will be delivered in a week or 10 days,” Haberturk newspaper cited him as saying in a report Monday. “I’ve clearly told this to Trump, Mr. Putin also said it.”...

...Yet while Congress is drawing up potential sanctions plans that at their harshest would cripple the Turkish economy, Trump has cast Turkey as a victim in the saga. At the Group of 20 nations meeting in Japan on Saturday, the U.S. president said Erdogan was treated unfairly by the Obama administration when he sought to buy an American missile-defense system. While the S-400 deal is “a problem,” the U.S. is “looking at different solutions,” he said.

The optics of Trump’s support for Turkey were undercut by a later White House statement that he had “expressed concern” about the Russian missile deal....

...Turkey regards standalone Russian S-400 missiles as superior to Patriots and capable of protecting the Turkish capital and the commercial hub of Istanbul, the officials said. Their presence would alleviate concerns over the security of Turkish straits linking the Black Sea to the Mediterranean, they added."

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -sanctions
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Jul 2019, 01:45

S-400s reportedly to be loaded on planes in Russia on Sunday
06 Jul 2019 DAILY SABAH WITH WIRES

"The first of the Russian S-400 air missile defense systems that Ankara has purchased will be loaded on to cargo planes on Sunday and are expected to arrive in Turkey sometime next week, Turkish Habertürk daily reported.

The initial S-400 delivery will be sent on two cargo planes from a Russian military air base, Habertürk said without citing a source. It also reported that a Russian technical team that would oversee its installation is expected to arrive in Turkey by Monday....

...Separately, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said on Friday the S-400 air defense systems will be delivered as planned."

Source: https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2019 ... -on-sunday
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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popcorn

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Unread post06 Jul 2019, 05:40

Trump.can change his mind at any point in time for the flimsiest of reasons.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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mgelevli

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Unread post06 Jul 2019, 12:36

As a Turkish citizen, I would like to share my opinions about the F-35 - S-400 crisis.
It is well known, and also has been recently stated by US president Trump, we had requested to procure a long range missile air defence system from our primary weapons supplier, the US. But the project could not be materialized.
For whatever the reasons, we have come to this day. We can not, and will not cancel the S-400 deal with the Russians. We certainly need to purchase a high altitude air defence system until we succeed to develop our own.
The US will not give F-35A aircraft which we have purchased. The US seems right, as they do not want to jeopardize their multibillion dolar JSF project. F-35 and S-400 are adversaries, so they are not suitable for cooperative work. On the other hand we need a new fighter aircraft to replace our F-4E Phantoms. We have been preparing our F-4 bases for such transformation, starting with the 7th Main Base in Malatya.
The US seems determined to impose sanctions on our country. This will not be limited to the blockade of F-35 jets but also may include other arms sales, as well as economic sanctions, which may not and will not be good for our economy. Economic deterioration will worsen the public opinion against US, which is already not so good. So the two allies will be more distant than ever before. Also, in the future, when we need to procure a defence system of foreign origin, Turkish authorities will think twice for the US systems.
To summarize:
1. We have purchased the S-400 ADS
2. US will not give F-35s to be used along side the S-400.
3. We need new aircraft to replace F-4 Phantoms.
As Mr. Trump stated recently during the G-20 meetings, a solution for this problem may be found. I have personally found one, and I would like to share it here:
1. We receive the S-400 ADS from Russia.
2. The US does not impose a wide array of sanctions but only blocks F-35 deliveries to Turkey.
3. Turkish companies continue their share of the supply chain work for the F-35 program.
4. We procure F-15X fighter aircraft (about 80-100 jets) instead of the F-35 from US, and given assistance for the national fighter aircraft project of our own.

This results as;
Russians are happy; they have sold their S-400 system to a NATO country, ensuring a greater market share world wide.
Americans are happy; the F-35 is not jeopardized. They have sold the newest model of their F-15 Eagle and earned billions of USD. Spared Israel's technological edge in air warfare in the region.
We, Turks, are happy; we have replaced our aging Phantom fleet with a formidable 4++ platform until our indigenous fighter materializes. We have acquired one of the most powerful AD systems in the world. We have not suffered from any economic or military sanctions from US.

What do you think about this solution?
Best regards from Turkey.
P. S.: The Topic "Turkey Problem" hurts me, I love my country, and would like to live in a peaceful world, not with problems of any kind, starting from our neighborhood, spreading globally.
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popcorn

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Unread post06 Jul 2019, 13:09

The non-US members of the JSF Consortium would rather Turkey's workshare be reallocated to them. Boeing can throw some work Turkey's way.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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blindpilot

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Unread post06 Jul 2019, 14:49

mgelevli wrote: ...

What do you think about this solution?
Best regards from Turkey.
P. S.: The Topic "Turkey Problem" hurts me, I love my country, and would like to live in a peaceful world, not with problems of any kind, starting from our neighborhood, spreading globally.


I think that until Turkey resolves its internal simmering civil war, even reasonable solutions such as this are just ignoring the elephant in the room. Either Turkey is a secular European "Ataturk Turkey," or it is an Islamic republic.

That answer hasn't resolved itself. If Turkey wishes to be anchored in the Islamic MIddle East, with a regional hegemony presence, then America (Europe) has no desire to partner on an equal, close relationship. That's not a bad thing necessarily. The West is on friendly terms with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, The Gulf States etc. ... but they are not "one of us," nor do they consider us, "one of them."

Many Americans found Ataturk's Turkey a wonderful nation with environment and people that could be loved as brothers and sisters. His dream resonated with westerners. The current climate is such that westerners, especially Christians, no longer feel safe in a place they had come to know as home. They worked side by side with muslims in harmony, but now fear even neighbors they have known for years.

Once Turkey decides whether they follow Ataturk or Erdogan, get back to us. Until then, expect the west to lean more and more with Greece and convenient Middle East Islamic partners.(like even the Kurds). This is not a decision for the US to make. Turkey has to decide who she is. By the way, Turkey has a very short historical memory, if she is willing to snuggle up to the Russians. Don't call us when they turn ... once again .. as they always have with Turkey. Play with poisonous snakes if that's your game, but don't ask us for the antivenom later.

MHO,
BP
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jakobs

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Unread post06 Jul 2019, 15:25

blindpilot wrote:
mgelevli wrote: ...

What do you think about this solution?
Best regards from Turkey.
P. S.: The Topic "Turkey Problem" hurts me, I love my country, and would like to live in a peaceful world, not with problems of any kind, starting from our neighborhood, spreading globally.


I think that until Turkey resolves its internal simmering civil war, even reasonable solutions such as this are just ignoring the elephant in the room. Either Turkey is a secular European "Ataturk Turkey," or it is an Islamic republic.

That answer hasn't resolved itself. If Turkey wishes to be anchored in the Islamic MIddle East, with a regional hegemony presence, then America (Europe) has no desire to partner on an equal, close relationship. That's not a bad thing necessarily. The West is on friendly terms with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, The Gulf States etc. ... but they are not "one of us," nor do they consider us, "one of them."

Many Americans found Ataturk's Turkey a wonderful nation with environment and people that could be loved as brothers and sisters. His dream resonated with westerners. The current climate is such that westerners, especially Christians, no longer feel safe in a place they had come to know as home. They worked side by side with muslims in harmony, but now fear even neighbors they have known for years.

Once Turkey decides whether they follow Ataturk or Erdogan, get back to us. Until then, expect the west to lean more and more with Greece and convenient Middle East Islamic partners.(like even the Kurds). This is not a decision for the US to make. Turkey has to decide who she is. By the way, Turkey has a very short historical memory, if she is willing to snuggle up to the Russians. Don't call us when they turn ... once again .. as they always have with Turkey. Play with poisonous snakes if that's your game, but don't ask us for the antivenom later.

MHO,
BP


This!
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falcon.16

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Unread post06 Jul 2019, 16:39

blindpilot wrote:
mgelevli wrote: ...

What do you think about this solution?
Best regards from Turkey.
P. S.: The Topic "Turkey Problem" hurts me, I love my country, and would like to live in a peaceful world, not with problems of any kind, starting from our neighborhood, spreading globally.


I think that until Turkey resolves its internal simmering civil war, even reasonable solutions such as this are just ignoring the elephant in the room. Either Turkey is a secular European "Ataturk Turkey," or it is an Islamic republic.

That answer hasn't resolved itself. If Turkey wishes to be anchored in the Islamic MIddle East, with a regional hegemony presence, then America (Europe) has no desire to partner on an equal, close relationship. That's not a bad thing necessarily. The West is on friendly terms with Saudi Arabia, Egypt, The Gulf States etc. ... but they are not "one of us," nor do they consider us, "one of them."

Many Americans found Ataturk's Turkey a wonderful nation with environment and people that could be loved as brothers and sisters. His dream resonated with westerners. The current climate is such that westerners, especially Christians, no longer feel safe in a place they had come to know as home. They worked side by side with muslims in harmony, but now fear even neighbors they have known for years.

Once Turkey decides whether they follow Ataturk or Erdogan, get back to us. Until then, expect the west to lean more and more with Greece and convenient Middle East Islamic partners.(like even the Kurds). This is not a decision for the US to make. Turkey has to decide who she is. By the way, Turkey has a very short historical memory, if she is willing to snuggle up to the Russians. Don't call us when they turn ... once again .. as they always have with Turkey. Play with poisonous snakes if that's your game, but don't ask us for the antivenom later.

MHO,
BP


I am agree.

I think the problem on the current situation on Turkey is that Erdogan take all decitions and i do not think he is a man who knows to receive any different opinion.

So, Erdogan does not know nothing about airplanes or other systems, for him all will be same, but he takes decitions about all that, when all these decitions should be taken only by militar officials.

This is a problem who erdogan built and westerm countries can not do nothing.

It is similar than situation around Turkey joining european union. It will be not happen never while President Erdogan continue doing contrary things around human rights. he is upset because european union always tell to him no. He never thinks that maybe the problem is about him and not about the others.
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ricnunes

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Unread post07 Jul 2019, 14:03

I also fully agree and echo blindpilot's words above.

Just to add to the above, the only thing that I agree with mgelevli is that IMO no further sanctions outside the F-35 program should be taken against Turkey, this based the S-400 decision alone, that is.
However I don't agree with the rest, namely with this:

3. Turkish companies continue their share of the supply chain work for the F-35 program.


If Turkey is out of the F-35 than it should be out for good. No way that Turkey will be bared from acquiring the F-35 and still continue to manufacture parts for it. These manufacturing/contracts should be given to the countries that stick with the F-35 program.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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