The Turkey problem

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optimist

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Unread post19 Nov 2017, 22:51

What makes you think he hasn't? Unless people have their head in a bucket of rightwing sand, This whole russia thing with the US stinks. The US was never noted for uncorrupted politicians, but it was domestic, corporate controlled. This takes the cake.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post19 Nov 2017, 23:39

REEEEEEEEE!... The discussion of internal politics and Cheeto Benito! Reeeeeeee....

On a different note, all I say is that it would be wonderful if Erdogan went erdo-gone and replaced with a non islamic dictator, and the f-35 fiasco goes poof, and then the President pardons the Turkey for Thanksgiving. Something to be truly thankful for. If only the West could step up it's coup game.....
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spazsinbad

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Unread post20 Nov 2017, 02:12

Turkey may remove US radar if F-35s not delivered on schedule
16 Nov 2017 Editor

"In a bid to dissuade Turkey from going forward with the purchase of the powerful S-400 missile defense system, the U.S. had warned that such a move “would jeopardize the sale of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey.”...

...In retaliation to the American blackmail, Ankara may take measures of its own in response, atop of which is the possible dismantling of the powerful Malatya- Kürecik AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012....

...As part of its agreements with NATO, Turkey has given permission for the deployment of the radar to its territory, much to the dismay of Russia and Iran, who expressed their sharp opposition to such a move....

...In case Turkey decides to dismantle the Kürecik radar in response to the ongoing attempts by the U.S. to use the F-35 jets to blackmail Turkey, Israel will lose its “early warning system” in case of a missile launch from eastern or northern Iran.

Despite the fact that the S-400 missile defense system will run independently from the NATO network, the F-35 jets deal is being used to blackmail Turkey, whose patience is thinning after multiple attempts to block the purchase of the advanced Russian system. By 2030, Turkey is scheduled to receive a total of 116 fifth generation F-35 fighter jets, parts of which are produced domestically by TAI-TUSAŞ."

Source: http://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkey ... le-2808663
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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maus92

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Unread post20 Nov 2017, 02:31

white_lightning35 wrote:REEEEEEEEE!... The discussion of internal politics and Cheeto Benito! Reeeeeeee....

On a different note, all I say is that it would be wonderful if Erdogan went erdo-gone and replaced with a non islamic dictator, and the f-35 fiasco goes poof, and then the President pardons the Turkey for Thanksgiving. Something to be truly thankful for. If only the West could step up it's coup game.....


They already tried the coup angle last July, with negative results. They aren't very good at it, not enough recent practice. Erdy is still pissed about the Kurds.
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optimist

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Unread post20 Nov 2017, 07:20

Jared is in charge of the ME, I'm sure he will sort it out tomorrow. At least he refused to be informed on the history of the ME as it was irreverent to day. So he won't be burdened with that and has a clean sheet. He has already sorted the Israeli/Palestine issue. It was so easy, as Trump said.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post20 Nov 2017, 07:34

I am sure cooler heads will prevail in Turkey. As much of their Defense Sector is dependent on the US and Europe...... :roll:
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neptune

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Unread post20 Nov 2017, 10:40

spazsinbad wrote:
Turkey may remove US radar if F-35s not delivered on schedule
16 Nov 2017 Editor

"In a bid to dissuade Turkey from going forward with the purchase of the powerful S-400 missile defense system, the U.S. had warned that such a move “would jeopardize the sale of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey.”...

...In retaliation to the American blackmail, Ankara may take measures of its own in response, atop of which is the possible dismantling of the powerful Malatya- Kürecik AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012....

...As part of its agreements with NATO, Turkey has given permission for the deployment of the radar to its territory, much to the dismay of Russia and Iran, who expressed their sharp opposition to such a move....

...In case Turkey decides to dismantle the Kürecik radar in response to the ongoing attempts by the U.S. to use the F-35 jets to blackmail Turkey, Israel will lose its “early warning system” in case of a missile launch from eastern or northern Iran.

Despite the fact that the S-400 missile defense system will run independently from the NATO network, the F-35 jets deal is being used to blackmail Turkey, whose patience is thinning after multiple attempts to block the purchase of the advanced Russian system. By 2030, Turkey is scheduled to receive a total of 116 fifth generation F-35 fighter jets, parts of which are produced domestically by TAI-TUSAŞ."

Source: http://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkey ... le-2808663


....Erdogan is in the Catbirds seat, with both Russia/ Iran and NATO eating out of his hand. Three quarters of the Turks are Sunni, so who is going to attack Turkey, the Kurds? And that needs a S-400 and radar, not! Erdogan will get his F-35s as long as he stays in NATO, less they continue to do stupid Norway stuff. Syria is a perfect example, they allied with Russia/ Iran and lost three quarters of their country to the Sunnis and the Kurds. Turkey, today without NATO can stomp Iran into a grease spot with their other Sunni allies. He will bide his time and get his jets, along with his NATO allies.
...so what's new?
:)
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tincansailor

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 00:32

....Erdogan is in the Catbirds seat, with both Russia/ Iran and NATO eating out of his hand. Three quarters of the Turks are Sunni, so who is going to attack Turkey, the Kurds? And that needs a S-400 and radar, not! Erdogan will get his F-35s as long as he stays in NATO, less they continue to do stupid Norway stuff. Syria is a perfect example, they allied with Russia/ Iran and lost three quarters of their country to the Sunnis and the Kurds. Turkey, today without NATO can stomp Iran into a grease spot with their other Sunni allies. He will bide his time and get his jets, along with his NATO allies.
...so what's new?
:)

[/quote]

Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.
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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 00:45

For argument's sake, let's say Turkey is denied the F-35. Aside from the potential impact to the F-35 program due to a loss of 100+ sales... would such a denial be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back and results in Turkey leaving NATO? After all, that would be a pretty major slap in Erdogan's face.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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sunstersun

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 03:01

I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.
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steve2267

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 03:36

sunstersun wrote:I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.


I understand what you are saying about "isn't good for future partners." The flipside to that coin, though, is that just because one has invested 12 years into a particular program as a "junior" partner, do not expect that one can force the other partners, including senior partners, into doing whatever one wants them to do. That is to say, actions have consequences.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 03:54

steve2267 wrote:For argument's sake, let's say Turkey is denied the F-35. Aside from the potential impact to the F-35 program due to a loss of 100+ sales... would such a denial be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back and results in Turkey leaving NATO? After all, that would be a pretty major slap in Erdogan's face.




Turkey's Future Defense Plans are based on a number of systems from the West. If, Erdogan tried to leave the Western Alliance and NATO. He maybe facing another attempted coup by the Military! :doh:
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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 08:23

[/quote]

Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.[/quote]

Tincan, you are soo funny. Historical advantage of geolocation???

Our geolocation is one of the worst in the world in terms of POLITICS and MILITARY CONFLICTS... Right??? Are you so blind to see how the middle east is like for the last 40 years? All of these terrible wars in this region all terribly affect Turkey. What our government is trying to do is to minimize the consequences of those wars/conflicts on our country. And while doing this, we are back-stabbed by our STRATEGIC ALLIES (???) (USA, Germany -> PKK/PYD and Gulen)

And it is soo funny to see that some others are in so much hurry to see the Turkey out of NATO. Their ignorance of the realites are so obvious that, they don't dare to speak about why all of this nonsense actions are taking place, but shamelessly discuss when Turkey will exit NATO. Please let me to remind to those stupid people that, Turkey is a strong member of NATO from very beginning, and served to help to NATO in many crisis from Korea to Kosova and Afghanistan to Baltic, sometimes by the blood of her soldiers.

I am almost sure that our goverment will not take such nonsense decisions, but will definetly continue to struggle politically with some shameless people in some countries.
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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 09:51

mtrman wrote:


Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.[/quote]

Tincan, you are soo funny. Historical advantage of geolocation???

Our geolocation is one of the worst in the world in terms of POLITICS and MILITARY CONFLICTS... Right??? Are you so blind to see how the middle east is like for the last 40 years? All of these terrible wars in this region all terribly affect Turkey. What our government is trying to do is to minimize the consequences of those wars/conflicts on our country. And while doing this, we are back-stabbed by our STRATEGIC ALLIES (???) (USA, Germany -> PKK/PYD and Gulen)

And it is soo funny to see that some others are in so much hurry to see the Turkey out of NATO. Their ignorance of the realites are so obvious that, they don't dare to speak about why all of this nonsense actions are taking place, but shamelessly discuss when Turkey will exit NATO. Please let me to remind to those stupid people that, Turkey is a strong member of NATO from very beginning, and served to help to NATO in many crisis from Korea to Kosova and Afghanistan to Baltic, sometimes by the blood of her soldiers.

I am almost sure that our goverment will not take such nonsense decisions, but will definetly continue to struggle politically with some shameless people in some countries.

[/quote]

What is so funny? All nations have geo-strategic advantages they exploit. Turkey is at the crossroads of Europe, and Asia, and the Black Sea, and the Aegean. Turkey has gained very favorable treatment from the Western Powers because of it's strategic location, since 1922. Please don't try to play a martyr role, Turkey has always acted to advance it's own interests. Thanks for joining the war against Hitler on Feb 23, 1945. My condolences for your heavy losses.

When the Soviet Union threatened Turkey after 1945 it was in Turkey's interest to join NATO. In the Post Cold War Period that threat is gone, so Turkey plays this double game, of selling it's self to the highest bidder. Turkey is now becoming an authoritarian theocracy, incompatible with Western liberal democracy. Turkey can hardly claim to be the victim in the Syrian Civil War. ISIS could never have grown so strong without the open support of Turkey, allowing it's supply lines to run though it's territory. Turkey worked to destabilize the Assad regime, in the hopes of establishing an Islamist regime in Syria.

Turkey does what Turkey want's. It refused to open a land front in both Gulf Wars. It invaded, and still occupies a third of Cyprus. It suppresses it's own Kurds, and threatens Kurds in other countries. It bullies Iraq, and Syria. It flirts with Iran, and Russia, sides with Hamas, and bashes Israel. It intimidates Greece, and threatens the Cypriots. It's hostile to Armenia. So Turkey is just a poor victim of the West. To be treated so harshly, after all Turkey has done for them, out of the goodness of their hearts, is just sheer ingratitude.
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mtrman

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Unread post21 Nov 2017, 12:30

What is so funny? All nations have geo-strategic advantages they exploit. Turkey is at the crossroads of Europe, and Asia, and the Black Sea, and the Aegean. Turkey has gained very favorable treatment from the Western Powers because of it's strategic location, since 1922. Please don't try to play a martyr role, Turkey has always acted to advance it's own interests. Thanks for joining the war against Hitler on Feb 23, 1945. My condolences for your heavy losses.

Are you serious? You can't answer my previous claim, but continue talk about all-nations??? Even go back to the 2nd WW?? Are you critisizing Turkey for staying neutral (which was not strong and rich at that times to hold a war with Nazis)?

When the Soviet Union threatened Turkey after 1945 it was in Turkey's interest to join NATO. In the Post Cold War Period that threat is gone, so Turkey plays this double game, of selling it's self to the highest bidder. Turkey is now becoming an authoritarian theocracy, incompatible with Western liberal democracy. Turkey can hardly claim to be the victim in the Syrian Civil War. ISIS could never have grown so strong without the open support of Turkey, allowing it's supply lines to run though it's territory. Turkey worked to destabilize the Assad regime, in the hopes of establishing an Islamist regime in Syria.

Do not need to talk about your full ignorance about Turkey and NATO cooperation for the last 60 years. But;

- Becoming an authoratian theocracy??? How many times you have visited Turkey in your life? What do you know about what have changed since the Erdogan? Who was supressed in our country? Which rights of people who is non-religious were banned? Which alcohol was banned? Which type of dressing banned or not allowed both in the state rules, or practical life??? Only the most basic rights of the religious people were given back to them during this last 15 years. Even the girls who had a simple head scarf were not allowed to go to the university before. People who was just basically performing their simple religious duties was fired from Governmental bodies.

- Yes, Turkey supported the CIVIL UPRISING in Syria which was aiming the democratic rights of the 80% sunni majority in this country, like many western countries also did. What kind of islamist regime are you talking about???

- Did you mention Daesh (ISIS)? Turkey never supported them, we only supported the Free Syrian Army. In the first years, Daesh acted like regular opposition, but then their true face and agenda become appearent. Daesh hit Turkey many times (in İstanbul, Ankara, etc) and Turkey actively hit Daesh and also actively supported the operations against Daesh by opening her air space and air bases, for the last 3 years. And you can still talk like that?

Let's also talk about who actually created Daesh (ISIS). Let's only look the non-ignorable results of their existence in Syria:
- By fighting against FSA, they magically saved Assad.
- By their terrible criminal acts, they changed the attitude of the world against Syrian uprising, and also against Islam (eventhough their rotten/distorted sect doesn't even represent 1% of total Muslims in the world. And those majority of Muslims also fight against those bastards (hariji) throughout the history. But since those bastards wave a flag which Allah (c.c.) and His Massanger name on it, they are easily shown to the world as Muslims...)
- They first seized land from Arabs and Turkmens, horribly changed the demographics of this region, and then gave those lands to the pure marxist/communist/terroris PKK/PYD. What a success?????? I congratulate your brainmasters... Only a Satan/Evil would have execute such a succesful plan...
You hit not two, perhaps 4-5 birds by using one stone....


Turkey does what Turkey want's. It refused to open a land front in both Gulf Wars. It invaded, and still occupies a third of Cyprus. It suppresses it's own Kurds, and threatens Kurds in other countries. It bullies Iraq, and Syria. It flirts with Iran, and Russia, sides with Hamas, and bashes Israel. It intimidates Greece, and threatens the Cypriots. It's hostile to Armenia. So Turkey is just a poor victim of the West. To be treated so harshly, after all Turkey has done for them, out of the goodness of their hearts, is just sheer ingratitude.

- Cyprus??? Just make some simple search and learn what happened in the Cyprus...

- Are you talking about our Kurdish origin brothers? Even though the Turkish and Kurdish people are like brothers who shared the same history and territories for 1000 years, and have the very same Islam religion, the same deep-state in Turkey also supressed some of their rights for many years. But do you know what Erdogan done? He gave the many rights back to them. Do you need me to send you news, articles, documents about those facts? Sorry, even you can find them very easily by using Google.

Every time you try to distribute your false claims, I will try to inform the others about the facts.

Unfortunately, my country doesn't know anything about telling truth to the world. We don't succeed at establising channels like RT, CNN or PressTV. You succeed to distrupt the facts and show the black as white to the world. But my country does almost nothing to show white as white. So it is up to the individuals like me to spare time and effort to answer some ignorants like you...
Last edited by mtrman on 21 Nov 2017, 14:29, edited 1 time in total.
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