The Turkey problem

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milosh

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Unread post20 May 2019, 07:19

XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:@loke

Georgia wasn't invaded, Russian troops were there as part of peace treaty which saved Tbilisi during 1990s war. It look Bloomberg forgot to mentioned that.

Also it is funny how Bloomberg is okey with breaking deals with Russia which is only country in world which can destroy USA while Bloomberg is pissing on Trump when he break deals with countries which can't do nothing to USA.



So the US could send tens of thousands of troops into Havana Cuba by force, but its no invasion since we occupy Guantanamo Bay as a part of previous treaties?

This is exciting news

I guess I can forget all the reports I read about the Russian invasion that pointed to a very lethal and potent force that was leveling up in terms of competence. There was no tactical lessons there afterall I guess.


Not same scenario at all.

It would be same scenario if Cuba tries to retake Guantanamo and then kill and capture US troops. That is what happen in Georgia in 2008.

In Georgia Russian peace keepers are from 1990s when separatists were on brink of wining war with Georgian army, road to Tbilisi was opened and only because of western pressure on Boris J, Russia force separatists to stop offensive and accept peace deal which is guaranteed by Russian peace keepers.

Then in 2008 war Georgians attack those same peace keeping troops which allow Russia to send 58th army in Georgia.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post20 May 2019, 15:17

milosh wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:@loke

Georgia wasn't invaded, Russian troops were there as part of peace treaty which saved Tbilisi during 1990s war. It look Bloomberg forgot to mentioned that.

Also it is funny how Bloomberg is okey with breaking deals with Russia which is only country in world which can destroy USA while Bloomberg is pissing on Trump when he break deals with countries which can't do nothing to USA.



So the US could send tens of thousands of troops into Havana Cuba by force, but its no invasion since we occupy Guantanamo Bay as a part of previous treaties?

This is exciting news

I guess I can forget all the reports I read about the Russian invasion that pointed to a very lethal and potent force that was leveling up in terms of competence. There was no tactical lessons there afterall I guess.


Not same scenario at all.

It would be same scenario if Cuba tries to retake Guantanamo and then kill and capture US troops. That is what happen in Georgia in 2008.

In Georgia Russian peace keepers are from 1990s when separatists were on brink of wining war with Georgian army, road to Tbilisi was opened and only because of western pressure on Boris J, Russia force separatists to stop offensive and accept peace deal which is guaranteed by Russian peace keepers.

Then in 2008 war Georgians attack those same peace keeping troops which allow Russia to send 58th army in Georgia.



So how would you describe what the 58th did there? :mrgreen:
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milosh

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Unread post20 May 2019, 21:29

XanderCrews wrote:So how would you describe what the 58th did there? :mrgreen:


Maintaining peace treaty which Georgians sign in 1990s
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Unread post21 May 2019, 21:47

WASHINGTON — Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.
By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel a multibillion-dollar deal with Russia and instead buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system — or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.

As it stands now, the U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, multiple sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity told CNBC when asked whether the deadline had room for more extensions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/turkey- ... lties.html

The clock is ticking...
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Unread post22 May 2019, 15:12

loke wrote:
WASHINGTON — Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.
By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel a multibillion-dollar deal with Russia and instead buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system — or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.

As it stands now, the U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, multiple sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity told CNBC when asked whether the deadline had room for more extensions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/turkey- ... lties.html

The clock is ticking...


My prediction is that the dictator Erdogan will tell the US ' go to hell' and will take delivery of S-400's with an option to buy even more and also order the Russian SU-35 and even SU-57 .. Putin will of course be delighted.. Just a thought ...
lets wait and see..
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Unread post23 May 2019, 06:24

Turkish naval officers who were indicted in 2013 for alleged involvement in a military espionage ring that obtained classified Turkish, NATO and US documents were not only allowed to stay in the military but were promoted to senior ranks in many cases.
According to secret navy documents obtained by Nordic Monitor, the officers, who were found to have leaked classified documents in exchange for illicit ***** and other favors, were protected by the government of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. The criminal case that was based on 1,900 pages of documentary evidence that included wiretaps, physical evidence and digital footprints was hushed up under pressure from the government.
The five-page secret document that shows what happened to all suspects was dated April 6, 2018 and signed by naval Capt. Ünal Aydoğdu, who is responsible for the navy’s human resources department. The document lists the current status of 85 officers. Among them 40 officers including an admiral, a rear admiral and many captains retired, while the rest are continuing to serve.
According to a review of their current status, some of the officers were appointed to critical positions in Turkey and abroad. For example, Yalcin Özkütük, who was promoted to the rank of rear admiral, is serving in the General Staff intelligence section. Another suspect, Mustafa Kaya, also promoted to rear admiral, is working in the planning department at the General Staff, overseeing air and sea borders with respect to Greece and Cyprus. Özgur Özcan Altunbulak, promoted to captain, is currently serving as chief of staff at the Turkish Military Representative (TMR) office at NATO headquarters in Brussels.
Col. Erdal Şener, a suspect in the case, is assigned to the Ministry of Defense and working in the unit responsible for the security of NATO in Turkey. Capt. Murat Dinçman is assigned to the NATO Maritime Command, Northwood, United Kingdom, and works in operations. Several captains are in charge of navy frigates, according to the documents.

In the indictment, 357 suspects including 55 active duty officers and numerous retired officers were named when the prosecutor filed criminal charges against the gang in 2013. The indictment also mentions 831 victims and 196 co-plaintiffs.
According to the indictment, the gang hired foreign women as prostitutes to send to military officers from whom the gang eventually obtained classified military information. The gang’s main objective was to earn profits through the sale of confidential military documents to third parties, according to the indictment. The gang, which included civilian suspects, infiltrated the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and had many members from inside the military, which facilitated its activities in establishing contact with high-ranking officers and obtaining confidential documents from them.
The indictment reveals how NATO and US security was compromised. For example, NATO documents seized from suspect Narin Korkmaz during the execution of a search warrant identified Alparslan Yücel Soysal, also a suspect in the case, as revealing in detail the assets and capabilities of Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EAD) units operating in every NATO member state. The note next to his name clearly singles out Russia, China and Iran as potential clients for these documents.

A suspect named Bülent Karaaslan, a bomb expert, supplied secret US and NATO directives in bomb-making and bomb-diffusion techniques to the spy ring. Suspect Aydın Şit, an air force officer, handed over FBI bomb-making analyses to the gang that explained, among other things, how to make improvised bombs manually and where in the car these bombs should be planted. Suspect Ersin Kapucu, an air force pilot, was identified as an important source for electronic warfare data and information on how it is used in the Turkish Air Force (THK) and NATO. He supplied 22 power point presentation files dated 2009. A note in his file says he was soon expected to supply pass codes, which the gang believed would be very beneficial.
The gang obtained from a mark named İsmail Demir a hard copy of top secret details on AIM-120 missiles used in Turkish F-16 fighter jets. The note advises that he be rewarded for supplying this sensitive information. Another mark named Andaç Keskin, an officer at the field corps school of engineering in İzmir, was identified as an important asset in hooking up with NATO officers. The note about him says he knows many NATO officers and coordinates logistics for them. It says Keskin operated out of the Aktur Hotel in İzmir, where many NATO officers stayed, in a room fitted with surveillance equipment.
Suspect Nuri Dereli, a flight lieutenant, supplied the gang with a very sensitive file called “Tur_AEM_F16.pdf” which is 954 pages long in English and classified as “Secret Releasable to USA, TUR.” It details technical, tactical and procedural data for F-16s. The note attached to this file says it should not be obtained by anybody else. It even warned that when a file of a similar nature was previously leaked, it created problems between Turkey and the US. “I repeat it should not be leaked in order not to experience similar problems with the US,” the note added.
Similarly, suspect Okay Yalçın, an air force officer, leaked sensitive information on US-made Hawk medium-range surface-to-air missile systems, including a 24-page secret document titled “60G-2-2-70 Hawk Passive Engagement System.pdf.” Another set of documents seized from suspect Saygın Özdemir details performance reports of pilots assigned to the 151st squadron and their evaluations on war preparedness. A document titled “F-1” reveals frequencies and positions pilots use with ground control at the 5th Air Base and was described as vital information that cannot be allowed to be leaked to the enemy in wartime. Another document explains how the ammunition loaded on F-16s should be used and under what conditions. It says this document cannot be transferred to any country other than Turkey and the US. A document leaked by Gökhan Gülbalar explains the nuts and bolts of a signal intelligence system named Milsis-23u, used within the General Staff’s Electronic Systems Command (GES), the military’s most comprehensive and top secret communications interception unit.
The indictment also said the spy ring sent some of the confidential military documents to terrorist groups, endangering the security of the state and its citizens. The suspects are also accused of hiring foreign women as prostitutes to send to military officers. The prostitutes would illegally obtain personal information about these officers and blackmail them into providing the spy ring with classified information. The group was based in İzmir and had branches in a number of other provinces.
Documents seized from suspected members of the espionage ring showed that it kept tabs on dozens of military officers due to their ideological or religious backgrounds.
The indictment also identified the leader of the spy ring as Bilgin Özkaynak, a businessman, Korkmaz, a young university student, as his aide. The prosecutor demanded life sentences for 11 suspects, including Özkaynak and Korkmaz, on accusations of establishing and running an illegal organization; illegally obtaining secret military and personal information; sharing that information with third parties; and endangering state security.
According to the indictment, Korkmaz had a false military ID that showed her as a lieutenant colonel, and she was free to enter military barracks and units wearing a uniform, thanks to the ID. Prosecutors added a few photos of Korkmaz taken when she was wearing a military uniform.
The indictment also included excerpts from documents seized from the espionage gang that clearly show how members forced military officers to give them confidential military information after video taping them in sexual encounters with the foreign women hired by the gang. “We obtained the [military] plans for attack and defense in the event of a war in the Black Sea thanks to photos obtained by T.D. T.D. will serve as our eyes and ears in the military from now on. M.T.A. says he liked the blonde we sent him. We have footage of sexual intercourse between General A.L.T.’s son T with E.İ. We also have footage of General Ş.’s daughter. We will follow them all,” read the documents.
The criminal case against the gang members was quashed by the Erdoğan government, and all suspects were let go. Many returned to their duties in the Turkish military, advancing in the ranks despite their controversial records.


The full five-page secret report is posted below:

https://www.nordicmonitor.com/2019/05/t ... documents/

This cannot possibly be true!??
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Unread post23 May 2019, 06:52

Japan got a lot of US classified stuff the same way. I don't know how much was blackmail and how much was coerced with money as well. I recall it was about 10-15 years ago, but would need to look up the details
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loke

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Unread post23 May 2019, 07:13

optimist wrote:Japan got a lot of US classified stuff the same way. I don't know how much was blackmail and how much was coerced with money as well. I recall it was about 10-15 years ago, but would need to look up the details

Unfortunately these things happen -- however it seems very strange to stop the investigation, drop all charges, and promote the people involved!

I guess after the massive purge of military personnel Erdogan has very limited options of finding qualified people..?
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Unread post23 May 2019, 07:30

loke wrote:
optimist wrote:Japan got a lot of US classified stuff the same way. I don't know how much was blackmail and how much was coerced with money as well. I recall it was about 10-15 years ago, but would need to look up the details

Unfortunately these things happen -- however it seems very strange to stop the investigation, drop all charges, and promote the people involved!

I guess after the massive purge of military personnel Erdogan has very limited options of finding qualified people..?

I googled 2013 year of the indictments. To see if there was a back story. to fill in the gaps. 2013 was a busy year,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corr ... _in_Turkey
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Unread post23 May 2019, 08:50

Get Turkey out of the F-35 program and Nato as fast as possible. The dictator Erdogan is a crazy man. He have now also started to cast doubt about the The Armenian Genocide 1915 – 1917.
https://twitter.com/trpresidency/status ... 6753803265

Support Greece and Cypros and let Turkey go.
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Unread post23 May 2019, 23:09

Wolters: US, Turkey Focused on Solving S-400 Dispute as Deadline Looms
22 May 2019 Brian Everstine

"NATO and the US are “very, very” focused on resolving the differences with Turkey as the country reportedly faces a new deadline to decide between the F-35 and Russian-made S-400 system, the head of US European Command said May 22. USAF Gen. Tod Wolters, speaking at a meeting of the NATO chiefs of defense in Brussels, said even though both the governments of Turkey and the US have expressed their opinions on the situation, “You never know what the future will reveal.”

The US will not allow the existence of the F-35 in the vicinity of the S-400 system, said Wolters, who also is NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander, Europe. The US State Department has set a deadline of the end of the first week of June to reject the S-400 system, or be removed from the F-35 program, reported CNBC on Tuesday....
[ https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/turkey- ... lties.html ] [extract below]

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... Looms.aspx

Turkey has until next month to cancel a messy multibillion-dollar Russian arms deal or face harsh US penalties
21 May 2019 Amanda Macias

"Key Points
- Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.

- By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel the Russian deal and buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.

- The U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, according to multiple sources....

...Last year, Turkey was in the process of constructing a site for the S-400 system, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of an intelligence report. The intelligence assessment included satellite imagery of a concrete launch facility as well as bunkers, according to the person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The new construction fits the pattern for Russia’s S-400 system, the person indicated. [ https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/turkey- ... ystem.html ]

If Turkey does receive its S-400 from the Kremlin this summer, the system is expected to be ready for use by 2020."

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/turkey- ... lties.html
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Unread post24 May 2019, 00:06

Panel: US/Turkey Dispute Over Buying Russian Air Defense System Has Deeper Roots
22 May 2019 John Grady

"...[experts say] Turkey doesn’t understand that, for the United States, buying a sophisticated Russian air defense system is a major national security issue that can’t be papered over. But Americans don’t understand that all their tough talk about leveling sanctions against Turkey if the Russian arms sale goes through only plays into Turkish leaders’ hands politically, a panel of experts said Wednesday.

Speaking at a forum on Ankara-Washington relations hosted by the Hudson Institute in Washington, Hudson fellow Blaise Misztal said that, to President Tayyip Erdogan and his political coalition partners, “sanctions and kicking you out of NATO is a winning policy” because it fuels long-standing and growing anti-Americanism in their nationalist-leaning array of parties....

...Misztal and Alan Makovsky, senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, noted 72 percent of Turks feel threatened by the United States. This fear is twice as great as Russians’ fear of the United States. Turkey is a NATO ally and is in a series of bilateral security and trade arrangement with the United States. The Center for American Progress helped devise that poll and analyze its results.

As an example, Turkey’s major issue with the U.S. today is not the F-35/S-400 debate but rather who was responsible for the attempted coup in July 2016, the panel noted...." [jump at the more.... :doh: ]

Source: https://news.usni.org/2019/05/22/panel- ... eper-roots
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Unread post24 May 2019, 04:09

Turkey's lack of public outcry just cements American leadership. Erdogan did us a favor.
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Unread post24 May 2019, 04:14

I'm wondering what the censorship and propaganda situation is like today in Turkey. Judge the politicians NOT the people.
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Unread post24 May 2019, 20:13

Turkey looks set to defy US and proceed with Russian S-400 acquisition
23 May 2019 Kerry Herschelman

"Key Points
• There are increased signs that Turkey will not scrap its Russian S-400 deal despite the US threat of sanctions

• If Ankara continues with the deal the F-35s it had on order could be stopped and the country could also be subject to Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) sanctions...

...In defiance of US warnings, however, Turkish Defence Minister Hulusi Akar told local media on 21 May that Turkey is preparing for all scenarios, including possible US sanctions, over its Russian S-400 deal. “We need to set up an air defence system to protect our 82 million people and our country,” Akar said, stressing that Turkey was under threat of air and missile attacks from its border with Syria.

He added that the United States was still trying to dissuade Turkey from purchasing the Russian SAMs but that Ankara was determined to go through with the deal. “We tell them it's a ‘done deal’ but they keep telling us ‘No deal is a done deal’,” he noted.

“Turkey is also making preparations for the potential implementation of CAATSA sanctions,” he said, falling short of detailing preparations to this end."

Source: https://www.janes.com/article/88744/tur ... cquisition
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