The Turkey problem

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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Apr 2019, 15:23

elshad wrote:Maybe Turkey can give the S-400 to their new friends Pakistan and in return accept the new Patriot offer from the U.S.

It would allow them to get the F-35, save face (by claiming they got a great deal for the Patriots) and not damage relations with Russia (as the S-400 is still being delivered)


That would be an interesting solution for this situation.
It wouldn't be much different to when the the Republic of Cyprus bought S-300s and then the Turks threatened to invade the non-Turkish Cyprus (Republic of Cyprus) - The solution was to give the purchased S-300s to Greece (in exchange for other weaponry).

Although IMO the problem with Turkey currently goes farther than this S-400 deal - Erdogan's stance and politics (to the point of sometimes being "Anti-West") aren't helping in any way.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Apr 2019, 22:13

Pentagon nixes Turkish offer to address S-400 fears
04 Apr 2019 Jack Detsch

"Article Summary
The Pentagon will not consider a Turkish proposal to create a bilateral working group to temper US fears over Ankara’s looming acquisition of the Russian S-400 air defense system....

...Despite the rising tensions, the United States continues to proceed with Turkish training on the F-35 in hopes that Ankara may come around on the S-400. The Pentagon today delivered two more of the jets to Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, where Turkish pilots are training on the jets before they are flown back to Turkey and formally handed over to Ankara....

...Meanwhile, Russia and Turkey remain in talks over the delivery date for S-400 parts, originally slated for May. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is set to meet with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin in Moscow next week."

Source: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... soglu.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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loke

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Unread post07 Apr 2019, 15:11

President Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday that Turkey was continuing to make payments under its deal with Russia to buy S-400 missile defence systems and the United States had not presented the same terms when it offered to sell the rival Patriot missile system, reported Reuters.

“The S-400 holds an important place in our talks. The United States’ arguments are very wrong. We finished the S-400 process and our payments continue,” Erdogan told reporters in Istanbul when asked about planned talks in Moscow next week.


https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190 ... us-stance/

No de-escalation yet...
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marsavian

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Unread post07 Apr 2019, 16:09

“penny wise, pound foolish.”

Enjoy your cheap S-400/Su-57 then Sultan ...
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durahawk

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Unread post07 Apr 2019, 20:25

marsavian wrote:“penny wise, pound foolish.”

Enjoy your cheap S-400/Su-57 then Sultan ...


The S-400 is anything but cheap... With regards to cost or capability.

The mush flanker is a different story.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post08 Apr 2019, 04:00

So, Turkey would like us to believe. That they are willing to trade the F-35 for the S-400!


Yet, what do they think about Greece acquiring the F-35??? :wink:

Greece to consider F-35 purchase

VASSILIS NEDOS

The acquisition by Greece of US-made F-35 fighter jets will hinge on the country’s fiscal plans and Washington’s ability to offer a long-term payment framework, reliable sources said Friday.

The possibility of Greece acquiring the Lockheed Martin jets as part of its efforts to upgrade the Hellenic Air Force fleet, was raised Friday by Defense Minister Evangelos Apostolakis, following remarks on Thursday by a US official about the possibility of selling the aircraft to more countries.

More specifically, Vice Admiral Mathias Winter, head of the Pentagon’s F-35 office, told Congress on Thursday that sales of the jets could be expanded to include five new countries – Singapore, Spain, Romania, Greece and Poland.

“Beyond the upgrade of the F-16 fighter jets, we are in the process of selecting a new plane for Greece, so we can gradually move to the new generation of aircraft,” Apostolakis told journalists during a visit to Andravida Air Base in the western Peloponnese.

“The statement by the US Congress helps in this perspective. We will examine it, all the elements, and see what will happen,” he added.

Sources said that given Greece’s fiscal constraints, the purchase of the fighter jets will depend on whether it can pay for them over a time period ranging from six to eight years.
For the time being, Greece has sent a letter of request for price and availability to Lockheed Martin for between 25 and 30 jets.

Greek interest comes at a time of growing tensions between the US and Turkey over Ankara’s acquisition of Russian missile defense systems, which Washington opposes.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/239304/arti ... ayhuC_CCtM
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spazsinbad

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Unread post08 Apr 2019, 04:52

:doh: Would TURKEY not having the F-35 BUT Greece having some make OK nice noise in Turkey? Good one GREECE. :devil:

:roll: Anyhoo another DEFspiral. :mrgreen:
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loke

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Unread post08 Apr 2019, 10:57

As Turkey moves forward with the controversial purchase of Russia's most sophisticated and advanced air defense systems, some State Department and Department of Defense officials are privately blaming President Donald Trump for failing to issue a tough ultimatum over the proposed sale, sources with knowledge of the matter tell ABC News.

Since Erdogan has been personally negotiating the sale, there was hope that pressure from Trump could kill the deal.

But during a Feb. 22 call between the two leaders, Erdogan pushed back against Trump's threat of sanctions, suggesting Congress was infringing on the president's executive power by issuing sanctions against Turkey over the deal, according to three U.S. officials briefed on the conversation.

Erdogan allegedly told Trump that the possibility of sanctions from Congress under Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act or CAATSA, is "unconstitutional" because "it takes away your executive power," according to two officials briefed on the call.

Trump responded that he'd talk to Congress, according to two of the officials who had knowledge of the conversation and then moved on from the topic.

The president's response "wasn't framed so that Erdogan saw what was at stake," said another official about the call.

Turkish Foreign Affairs Minister Mevlut Çavuşoğlu hinted at the mixed messages coming from the administration on Wednesday when he claimed that during the same phone call, Trump promised Erdogan he "would take care of the issue."

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/amid-tu ... d=62230959

Trump should spend more time on the golf course and less time talking to people like Erdogan and Putin...!
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spazsinbad

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 20:45

Top US lawmakers demand Turkey choose: America’s F-35, or Russia’s S-400
09 Apr 2019 Joe Gould

"WASHINGTON — Top U.S. lawmakers are threatening to pass legislation that would bar NATO ally Turkey from buying the F-35 fighter jet, and sanction the country if it buys the Russian S-400 air defense system, ratcheting pressure via a New York Times op-ed on Tuesday.

If Turkey accepts the S-400, “no F-35s will ever reach Turkish soil. And Turkish participation in the F-35 program, including manufacturing parts, repairing and servicing the fighters, will be terminated, taking Turkish companies out of the manufacturing and supply chain for the program,” wrote the bipartisan leaders of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

“We are committed to taking all necessary legislative action to ensure this is the case. Turkey is an important partner in the F-35 program, but it is not irreplaceable,” the lawmakers added.

The letter targets Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s decision-making calculus, emphasizing economic costs if Turkey loses co-production of the Lockheed Martin-made F-35 and geopolitical costs if Erdogan steps toward Moscow and away from NATO. The letter is also a signal to Erdogan that he cannot rely on personal diplomatic efforts by U.S. President Donald Trump, as Congress will stand in the way….

...If Erdogan accepts delivery of the S-400, “Turkey will be sanctioned as required by United States law under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act. Sanctions will hit Turkey’s economy hard — rattling international markets, scaring away foreign direct investment and crippling Turkey’s aerospace and defense industry,” the lawmakers warn.

Among the “severe consequences” if Turkey abandons (or is forced to abandon) the F-35 program, its $1.25 billion-plus investment “will be squandered” and “it will not receive the more than 100 F-35s it planned to purchase, and it will be forced to settle for a less-capable fighter aircraft that will not arrive for many years,” according to the senators.

“Turkish companies that produce parts for the F-35 will see their orders dry up completely. Its F-35 engine maintenance, repair, overhaul, and upgrade facility will see all its work go to other facilities in Europe,” they wrote. “President Erdogan’s hope to make the Turkish defense industry a key pillar of economic growth for the future will be dashed.”

They commit to “do all we can to assist Turkey” if Erdogan walks away from the S-400 and if Russian President Vladimir Putin retaliates in economic sectors where Ankara relies on Moscow. Putin, they say, “is trying to divide Turkey from the West with the S-400s." “Mr. Putin fears and respects a Turkey strategically anchored in the West and committed to NATO,” they wrote. “We hope President Erdogan will choose that future for Turkey by rejecting Mr. Putin’s divisive S-400 ploy, meeting its air defense requirement with the Patriot system and moving forward as a critical partner in the F-35 program.”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... ias-s-400/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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marsavian

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 20:59

They just need 2/3 majority in both chambers of Congress and Trump can't veto it. Big decision time for Sultan baby !
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 23:59

spazsinbad wrote:
Top US lawmakers demand Turkey choose: America’s F-35, or Russia’s S-400
09 Apr 2019 Joe Gould

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... ias-s-400/



Old saying.........."fish or cut bait" :|
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loke

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 11:57

Turkey’s procurement of the Russian S-400 air defense systems is in its delivery stage, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said, reiterating Ankara’s stance on the issue despite a rising opposition from its NATO ally United States.

“The agreement concerning the S-400 [missiles] is a done deal, we are today at the point of delivery. The calendar for deliveries is proceeding and they will come in accordance with this calendar, as it was declared earlier,” Erdoğan told a group of journalists aboard a presidential plane on his way back to Turkey from a summit with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin on April 8.

Turkish ministers are frequently facing questions on the S-400 issue, the president noted.

“As you know, the issue is not limited to Turkey and it is on the agenda of the whole world,” Erdoğan said.
“We tell them that this issue is finalized and everything is ready,’” he said.

Washington last week reportedly suspended Turkey’s participation in the ongoing F-35 fighter-jet program, in which Turkey has invested over $1 billion as a recent tool to force Turkey to step back from buying Russian systems. However, Pentagon said on April 4 that transfer of one of Turkey’s two F-35 jets to Luke Air Force Base in Arizona was delivered to Turkish pilots for training, in addition to two other jets delivered last year.

Erdoğan confirmed that a fourth jet was delivered to Turkey on April 8.

“Trainings continue,” Erdoğan said, adding that a team of four pilots were taking part in the mission under a brigadier general.

Turkey is also undertaking preparations for the arrival of the jets from Arizona to Turkey.

“There are no negative statements over the F-35s today,” Erdoğan said, adding that Defense Minister Hulusi Akar and Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, who met with his U.S. counterpart Mike Pompeo last week, recently held talks on the issue.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdoga ... age-142547

See highlighted text. Incredible -- does Erdogan really believe that the US is bluffing!?? Or is he just lying to the Turkish electorate??? Who knows... In any case, this does not look good at all.
The delivery of the S-400 missile defense system was supposed to be in July, it may be done earlier," the president said.


https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/20 ... -countries
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loke

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 12:07

If the U.S. refuses to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey, it could buy more Russian S-400 missiles or other air defense systems, according to Turkey's foreign minister.

Speaking to news channel NTV on Wednesday, Mevlut Cavusoglu hit back at U.S. criticisms of the S-400 purchase, saying that some NATO countries already have earlier generation S-300 missiles but this does not conflict with their NATO membership.

"If the U.S. refuses to sell us Patriots, tomorrow we could buy a second S-400, or another air defense system," he said.

Rebuffing U.S. threats to cancel a deal for F-35 jets if the S-400s are delivered, Cavusoglu said in the absence of F-35s, Turkey could buy fighters jets from another source until it is able to produce its own.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/if-us ... 0s/1447600

To me this looks more and more like the beginning of the end of the US-Turkish alliance, and perhaps also the Turkish NATO membership...
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ricnunes

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 18:58

loke wrote:
If the U.S. refuses to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey, it could buy more Russian S-400 missiles or other air defense systems, according to Turkey's foreign minister.

Speaking to news channel NTV on Wednesday, Mevlut Cavusoglu hit back at U.S. criticisms of the S-400 purchase, saying that some NATO countries already have earlier generation S-300 missiles but this does not conflict with their NATO membership.

"If the U.S. refuses to sell us Patriots, tomorrow we could buy a second S-400, or another air defense system," he said.

Rebuffing U.S. threats to cancel a deal for F-35 jets if the S-400s are delivered, Cavusoglu said in the absence of F-35s, Turkey could buy fighters jets from another source until it is able to produce its own.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/if-us ... 0s/1447600

To me this looks more and more like the beginning of the end of the US-Turkish alliance, and perhaps also the Turkish NATO membership...


Agreed.
Specially regarding the last part of your article quote, I would say that if that's true then that's already more than a reason for Turkey to be expelled from the JSF/F-35 program, this IMO of course.
Let them buy the Su-57 instead (of the F-35), LOL! :mrgreen:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 01:18

Turkey had a hand in both World Wars. They are only being their natural selves. Erdogan still believes in his Ottoman Empire revival.
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