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Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:37
by spazsinbad
Lockheed Martin: F-35 Production on Track Even as Congress Mulls Barring Turkey’s Participation
24 Jul 2018 Ben Werner

"...analysts wanted Lockheed Martin officials to explain how potential Congressional action blocking Turkey from taking ownership of their F-35 aircraft could hurt the overall financial performance of the company’s largest program.

Congressional leaders, Pentagon officials and Lockheed Martin executives have all spoken frequently about the need to bring the overall program cost down to below $100 million per fighter if the program is going to be sustainable, but any cost savings plans discussed include Turkey’s planned purchase 100 F-35 aircraft. Turkey has been a member of the F-35 program since its 1999 inception.

However, Congress is threatening to block NATO-member Turkey from taking ownership of its aircraft because of concerns the nation is considering purchasing the Russian-made S-400 air and missile defense system.

The FY 2019 National Defense Authorization Act, which emerged from a conference committee Monday evening, specifically asks for Secretary of Defense James Mattis to provide Congress with an update on Turkey’s military relationship with the U.S. military. Turkey’s proposed purchase of the S-400 system concerns Congressional leaders, according to the NDAA language, because its deployment poses “operational and counterintelligence risks” to the U.S. operation of F-35 aircraft.

Coincidentally, last month Lockheed Martin held a roll-out ceremony for Turkey’s first two F-35 aircraft. Turkey’s F-35 acquisition is part the U.S. Department of State-administered Foreign Military Sales program, which allows foreign governments to purchase military equipment from the U.S. government. Purchases made through this program require Congressional approval.

“This is under the FMS, the foreign military sales arrangement,” Tanner said. “This is a contract between Lockheed and the US Government, as opposed to direct commercial sales, so we’ll continue to deliver aircraft until the U.S. government says don’t deliver those aircraft, which we’re not expecting.”

For now, Tanner said Lockheed Martin is delivering Turkish aircraft on schedule. For the time being, as is with the case with any international sale, Tanner said the Turkish aircraft remain in the U.S. as Turkey’s pilots train with their aircraft.

“We have some time before those aircraft would leave the U.S.,” Tanner said...."


Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:41
by spazsinbad
Congress Moves Closer to Suspending Sales of F-35 to Turkey
24 Jul 2018 Oriana Pawlyk

"The suspension of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter sales to Turkey has become more likely after both the House and Senate opposed the deal in their versions of the 2019 National Defense Authorization Act.

The Defense Department has 90 days from the bill's final passage to submit a report to lawmakers explaining the strategic value of selling the jet to Turkey, a member of NATO. Until that time, deliveries of the fifth-generation fighter to Turkey will be on hold, House aides told reporters Monday, The Hill reported....

...The House is expected to vote on the conference version of the NDAA this week; the Senate should vote on the bill in August."

Source: ... urkey.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:13
by Corsair1963
Lockheed Martin: F-35 Production on Track Even as Congress Mulls Barring Turkey’s Participation

By: Ben Werner

July 24, 2018 3:20 PM

The stealthy F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter won’t be overly exposed to cost pressures if international customer Turkey is barred by Congress from taking ownership of its aircraft, Lockheed Martin’s senior leadership said while discussing second quarter financial results with Wall Street analysts during a Tuesday conference call..........

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2018, 22:48
by spazsinbad
A long comprehensive article covering details well known here in earlier posts so only first/last few paragraphs below.
September John A. Tirpak

Perhaps the most serious rift in years between NATO allies and among development partners on the F-35 strike fighter has been playing out over the last few months. It’s all about Turkey’s decision to buy Russia’s advanced Almaz-Antey S-400 “Triumf” air defense system.

In June, US senators inserted language into the 2019 National Defense Appropriations bill to block Turkey from fielding the F-35s that country has already purchased. The senators said they’re immediately concerned about the F-35’s stealth secrets leaking to Russia if the jet is flown in close proximity to the S-400....

...The bill would keep Turkey from receiving the technical information or support necessary to maintain and operate the F-35s. The already-passed House version of the Fiscal 2019 NDAA would stop all weapon sales to Turkey pending a Pentagon review of the tensions between the two countries....

...The S-400, as an adversary, “limits the range, particularly, of your legacy aircraft ... you have to work farther away” to be safe from the system’s missiles, Holmes said. “It means you have to go farther off the tankers, so you have less time when you’re forward.” Holmes said he would prefer not to fly the F-35 in close proximity to the S-400. The “how and when” is a “policy issue” on which he would not comment. “We take steps—whenever we fly the airplane—to do the gain and loss analysis of ‘where do we want to fly it, what do we want to do, who do we want to fly it with,’ and we’ll continue to work through those processes and make recommendations up the chain” of command, Holmes said.

A balance has to be struck, he said, “between demonstrating commitment and assuring your allies” and “preserving your state secrets.” It may be “hard to avoid” exposing the F-35 to adversary radars in the long term, though, Holmes said. “The airplane’s out there. We’ve accepted 300 of them” in the US services, and they will soon be based overseas by the US armed forces, “Alaska next, and to the United Kingdom after that,” Holmes pointed out. Some European partners are already fielding their F-35s, he said. “So, I think the question ... is not so much about ‘will you,’ it’s about ‘how will’ you do it” and still strike the balance of power projection and secrecy.

Although the Turkish government says that only Turkish troops will crew the S-400 system—a series of vehicles involving both radars and missiles—it is likely that Russian advisors will teach the crews how to operate the system against a variety of threats. Not widely known is that the S-400 is not just an air defense system. It can be employed as a ballistic missile system, striking at ground targets with high precision. Turkey has said it needs the system to defend against ISIS and the Kurds—neither of which have an air force—and also against Iran, which does....

...The Pentagon is loathe to alienate a long-term stalwart ally with a large military. Several Defense officials said that making the S-400 a loyalty test will only antagonize Turkey and, as one said, “drive them into the arms of Putin.” However, a Senate staffer said things may already have gone too far in that direction, and the legislation should be a wake-up call to Turkey to turn things around or face the unappealing outcome of becoming a Russian client state. “We don’t have to stay to the end to know how this movie turns out,” he said.""

Source: ... rture.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 15:16
by mixelflick
Let Turkey go, the F-35 is too big a security risk.

I mean seriously, our entire air to air/ground game plan (and most of our allies) is predicated on the F-35 and its secrets. Let Turkey order up as much Russian equipment as it likes, they'll learn the hard way the brochure specs don't add up in the real world. And they'll get their SU-57's, some day LOL

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 03:38
by durahawk
This sale is looking better and better all the time :bang:

It's almost like they are trying to get kicked out of the program to make mockery of the fact the US Government is too inept to stop the sale. I can't for the life of me figure out why DoD (or Lockheed for that matter, they might be greedy, but not stupid) still wants this to go through.

Turkish lawyers want to raid İncirlik Air Base and arrest U.S. Air Force officers ... -officers/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 03:50
by talkitron
Turkey’s currency just set a record low versus the dollar. Erdogan is too proud to release the detained American pastor.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 17:55
by steve2267
If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 19:25
by XanderCrews
steve2267 wrote:If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...

Or that Su-57 Ive heard is the clear alternative :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 21:25
by marsavian
Trump is sticking the boot in by doubling steel/aluminium tariffs on Turkey. I think the F-35 is the least of their problems now in trying to rescue this relationship. As the old song goes ... freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose ! So Erdogan, how's that Ottoman Empire 2.0 working out for you ? ;) ... -on-turkey ... 6586109955

Donald J. Trump
I have just authorized a doubling of Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum with respect to Turkey as their currency, the Turkish Lira, slides rapidly downward against our very strong Dollar! Aluminum will now be 20% and Steel 50%. Our relations with Turkey are not good at this time!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 00:03
by popcorn
XanderCrews wrote:
steve2267 wrote:If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...

Or that Su-57 Ive heard is the clear alternative :doh:

There's always this, unbeatable CPFH... uses tokens :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 01:11
by spazsinbad
Reminds me of this BIRDIE story:
Chief Petty Officer Saves Air Force Pilot in Horse-Back Riding Mishap
01 Mar 2012 UNK page 12

“A Royal Australian Air Force Pilot serving in the Defence Department narrowly escaped serious injury recently when he attempted horseback riding with no prior experience. After mounting his horse unassisted, the horse immediately began moving. As it galloped along at a steady and rhythmic pace, the pilot, who has not been named, began to slip sideways from the saddle. Although attempting to grab for the horse's mane the pilot could not get a firm grip. He then threw his arms around the horse's neck but continued to slide down the side of the horse. The horse galloped along, seemingly oblivious to its slipping rider. Finally, losing his grip, the rider attempted to leap away from the horse & throw himself to safety.

However, his foot became entangled in the stirrup, leaving him at the mercy of the horse's pounding hooves as his head and upper body repeatedly struck the ground. Moments away from unconsciousness and possible death, to his great fortune an RAN Chief Petty Officer, shopping at K-Mart, saw him and quickly un-plugged the horse!”

Source: ... -Mar12.pdf (4.6Mb)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 02:19
by popcorn

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 04:45
by element1loop

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 00:17
by quicksilver
Well played Spaz. Blew a few suds through my nose on that one... :applause: