The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 00:26
by white_lightning35
One thing that is worrying to me is that with all the things that are going on in Turkey they are still getting f-35's. The way I see it, the minute erdogan gets his paws on one is the minute Putin and Xi do, too. :shock: Surely our leaders must be thinking the same thing, but what can be done, or more realistically, what will be done?

I understand that much of the f-35 is software driven, but there are other things that are not, like engines and RAM. I'm no expert on this, but can't the baddies glean some stuff by scraping up some RAM and reverse-engineering the engines?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 01:40
by blindpilot
white_lightning35 wrote:One thing that is worrying to me is that with all the things that are going on in Turkey they are still getting f-35's. The way I see it, the minute erdogan gets his paws on one is the minute Putin and Xi do, too. :shock: Surely our leaders must be thinking the same thing, but what can be done, or more realistically, what will be done?

I understand that much of the f-35 is software driven, but there are other things that are not, like engines and RAM. I'm no expert on this, but can't the baddies glean some stuff by scraping up some RAM and reverse-engineering the engines?


While this is true and the concern is not zero ...
Russians have been reverse engineering engines since ... well since their first jet engine picking up metal flakes in the soles of their shoes in Britain. Ideas on RAM approaches theoretically have publicly been cussed and discussed ad nauseam.

The difficulty, and it isn't cheap even if you get it right is the material sciences, and especially the manufacturing and construction to tight tolerance. The Turks do not have access to those to the best of my knowledge. As discussed here somewhere, even when the Chinese do a "cookie cutter" copy as in the J-31, they screw up some of the very things that might be in the secret sauce to their detriment, (see post nozzle horizontal tail layouts)... because they can't make a single engine that powerful, even using the metal in their shoe soles.

Let's hope LM, P&W, and key suppliers are protecting their "key" trade secrets better than some have in the past. If nothing else to keep them away from Boeing and GE.

I actually think the F-35 might temper Turkey some, since they may have a nagging wonder/doubt as to if the US has a secret cut-off switch in ALIS. Even if they don't, .. Turkey has to think about it before they dump NATO et al ...

MHO,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 01:52
by white_lightning35
Thank you for the informed response, my good sir. Being just a high school student and not having much (actually any) real world experience with this type of thing, I greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge you and others on this forum freely share, for it allows me to gain valuable insight into these sorts of things to gain a head start for going into these fields.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 02:27
by popcorn
I wish there was an internet back in my HS days... :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 02:43
by spazsinbad
:devil: I wish: I was just leaving RAAF Flying School 8) to join the RAN FAA at NAS Nowra with :mrgreen: F-35Bs on LHDs - I wish. :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:12
by white_lightning35
popcorn wrote:I wish there was an internet back in my HS days... :mrgreen:



8) Yeah, I suppose we're a bit spoiled nowadays. I have access to almost the entirety of knowledge of mankind in my phone and I instead use it to watch cat videos and get into political arguments...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:25
by blindpilot
white_lightning35 wrote:Thank you for the informed response, my good sir. Being just a high school student and not having much (actually any) real world experience with this type of thing, I greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge you and others on this forum freely share, for it allows me to gain valuable insight into these sorts of things to gain a head start for going into these fields.


Good to see you here. Did you read Gen Davis' parting comment? "It's a Great time to be a Marine!" I think many of us are envious of being where you are.
Meanwhile,
blindpilot wrote:...even when the Chinese do a "cookie cutter" copy as in the J-31, they screw up some of the very things that might be in the secret sauce to their detriment,...


As seen by the long development time of the F-22 and F-35, aircraft design (especially 5th gen) is a mountain of billions and billions of details, worked in a maze of interdependent pieces. It is literally, (and as seen in some accident investigations, actually) sometimes just a new tech design of a single bolt that makes a domino fall of features possible. If you don't get the bolt right, you don't get the features.

You can't run 5th gen fighter jets on a copy machine/3 D printer and get the same result. Maybe some day, but not today. You have to dig up a couple hundred billion dollars just to get to play in the game. And that's with no guarantee you'll get what you paid for. Turkey nor Russia have the couple hundred $B to spare. China does, but they have an entire infrastructure (including High School curriculum, to have graduates to send to engineering school to learn how they did it in the '70s) to flesh out, and mature. They are still buying jet engines from Russia. And they will, until the new engineers have gotten 20 years experience in state of the art. There is no YouTube video for this.(yet)

FWIW,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:53
by white_lightning35
I am lucky to have so many interesting options these days... But on another note, what changed between the non-exportable f-22 and the f-35? Did Congress learn what I learned in this thread?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 04:01
by spazsinbad
Probably search the F-35 section of the forum for TAMPER would get some results. Otherwise the F-35 has been designed from the getgo to be exportable - the F-22 was not thusly designed. The F-35 has a shedload of tamper proof technology to keep it safe from the untoward. Exactly what that means is not my privilege to know-sorry-next life as indicated above.

USEful example from 2010: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14113&p=177011&hilit=tamper#p177011

WHICH'll bring you to: Mission To Keep the Secrets May 1, 2010 John Keller
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... p_the.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 04:03
by popcorn
There's a F-22 sub-forum for everything Raptor. The "search" function will serve you well.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 04:22
by durahawk
blindpilot wrote:I actually think the F-35 might temper Turkey some, since they may have a nagging wonder/doubt as to if the US has a secret cut-off switch in ALIS.


Wishful thinking, I am afraid. The reality is that they are using their American built F-16's now to bomb the same Kurds we are supporting in our fight against ISIS. I think if you expect them to utilize the F-35 to support soley NATO/Western/American interests you will be greatly disappointed.

Through the coup and subsequent crackdown, it is quite evident that Turkey is careening towards a dictatorship with Erdoğan at the helm. Last month his cronies even had the audacity to beat peaceful protesters on American soil and then demanded an apology from the US Goverment that our police stopped them during the act. So their Government that makes a mockery of laws and democratic values, yet we are trusting them with our most sensitive military technology?

We need only look to the Iranian Tomcats still flying around for outcomes of exporting high performance equipment to unstable governments. Turkey's membership in NATO should not blind us from this reality.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 09:10
by mtrman
@durehawk

I really don't like to deal with politics. But when somebody has wrong information about my country, or when he/she tries to misinform the others, then...
Yes, Turkey seems to be changed in some terms, but, unfortunately, this is mostly due to the fact that, our region is changing/being devastated horribly... How can you talk about Turkey, without talking about Iraq, Syria, Russia,... For the last 15 years, we are the indirect victim of all these horrible events in our region. And what about our Allies(!). They don't help us even struggling the coup attempters...

And what about Kurds? First of all, US is allying with Marxist/Leninist Terrorist YPG/PKK, not the Kurds. If you want to talk about Kurds, then go to the Northern Iraq, or SE Turkey. But don't use the word Kurds to refer to this terrorist YPG/PKK simply because they are composed of Kurds.

Some links about YPG/PKK:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20971100
http://aa.com.tr/uploads/TempUserFiles/ ... xtensi.pdf
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/me ... connection

Unfortunately, Turkey is not very good at telling and spreading the truths about herself. But if you really want to learn about what is happening in this region, then you can start by not believing everything you see on CNN, Fox, RT, etc, etc....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 09:41
by kimjongnumbaun
Reverse engineering is easier said than done. The Russians did rebuild some of our tech, but that was when it was less sophisticated. They still haven't managed to build a jet engine that has the same reliability or life expectancy comparable to ours. They can have the schematics, but they do not have the metallurgy techniques to create comparable materials. Knowing the answer to a question doesn't mean you know the formula on how to get it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 14:19
by steve2267
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Reverse engineering is easier said than done. The Russians did rebuild some of our tech, but that was when it was less sophisticated. They still haven't managed to build a jet engine that has the same reliability or life expectancy comparable to ours. They can have the schematics, but they do not have the metallurgy techniques to create comparable materials. Knowing the answer to a question doesn't mean you know the formula on how to get it.


As an observation, isn't it odd that the Russians cannot reverse engineer US gas turbines, purportedly for metallurgy shortcomings, when they performed "magic" with their rocket engines vis-a-vis the RD-170 / RD-180 family of oxygen-rich, staged-combustion rocket engines. In the 1990s, US engineers reportedly did not believe it was possible to accomplish what the Russians had with oxygen-rich staged combustion rockets, and then they were shown the RD-170/180 family.

Just because you may have specialty expertise in one realm of material sciences, doesn't translate to other areas.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 15:17
by zhangmdev
Engineering development has lineage. US rocket engine traditionally use fuel-rich configuration, switching to oxygen-rich would be very difficult.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 15:23
by XanderCrews
durahawk wrote:
blindpilot wrote:I actually think the F-35 might temper Turkey some, since they may have a nagging wonder/doubt as to if the US has a secret cut-off switch in ALIS.


Wishful thinking, I am afraid. The reality is that they are using their American built F-16's now to bomb the same Kurds we are supporting in our fight against ISIS. I think if you expect them to utilize the F-35 to support soley NATO/Western/American interests you will be greatly disappointed.

Through the coup and subsequent crackdown, it is quite evident that Turkey is careening towards a dictatorship with Erdoğan at the helm. Last month his cronies even had the audacity to beat peaceful protesters on American soil and then demanded an apology from the US Goverment that our police stopped them during the act. So their Government that makes a mockery of laws and democratic values, yet we are trusting them with our most sensitive military technology?

We need only look to the Iranian Tomcats still flying around for outcomes of exporting high performance equipment to unstable governments. Turkey's membership in NATO should not blind us from this reality.



Not to be cynical, but you think we only sell to nations that hold democracy as the highest virtue? We sell to dictatorships routinely. Betrayal is actually relatively rare. I love Israel but they've had no problem selling secrets to China.

So how do we reconcile these contradictions? And who would have thought our no holds barred withdrawal from the middle East could have resulted in a power vacuum? Who saw that coming? (Everyone)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 19:34
by durahawk
mtrman wrote:@durehawk

I really don't like to deal with politics. But when somebody has wrong information about my country, or when he/she tries to misinform the others, then...
Yes, Turkey seems to be changed in some terms, but, unfortunately, this is mostly due to the fact that, our region is changing/being devastated horribly... How can you talk about Turkey, without talking about Iraq, Syria, Russia,... For the last 15 years, we are the indirect victim of all these horrible events in our region. And what about our Allies(!). They don't help us even struggling the coup attempters...

And what about Kurds? First of all, US is allying with Marxist/Leninist Terrorist YPG/PKK, not the Kurds. If you want to talk about Kurds, then go to the Northern Iraq, or SE Turkey. But don't use the word Kurds to refer to this terrorist YPG/PKK simply because they are composed of Kurds.

Some links about YPG/PKK:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20971100
http://aa.com.tr/uploads/TempUserFiles/ ... xtensi.pdf
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/me ... connection

Unfortunately, Turkey is not very good at telling and spreading the truths about herself. But if you really want to learn about what is happening in this region, then you can start by not believing everything you see on CNN, Fox, RT, etc, etc....


I certainly recognize that not all in Turkey are 100% behind what their Government is becoming (same can be said of the US), so my criticism remains focused on the Erdoğan Government and not Turkey or the Turkish people as a whole. The misguided and botched 2003 invasion of Iraq and subsequent premature withdrawal have certainly helped to create the current mess in Iraq and Syria which the US owns some reasonability for.

Thank you for providing resources on the Kurdish forces, I am aware of the main factions at play Iraqi Peshmerga (good guys), PKK (recognized by US as terrorists), and the Syrian YPG (Somewhere in between). The Turkish Air Force has bombed all three in Syria, but later issued an apology for bombing the Peshmerga, which evidently was accidental. We can really go on ad nauseam about the links and differences between PKK and YPG, but suffice it to say the US Government sees a distinction between the two and the Turkish government does not. That's a pretty large foreign policy difference in terms of the fight against ISIS. The YPG have proven themselves to be effective fighters against Daesh, so I guess who is the greater evil is more of a matter of perception.

Simply stated, I personally think there are is more potential for negative outcomes of selling the F-35 to the unstable and autocratic Erdoğan Government than positive ones at his point. Sure the F-35 price might increase a bit for everyone else, but I think that is a small price to pay for not having the worlds premier combat aircraft falling into the hands of a dictatorship.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 19:51
by durahawk
XanderCrews wrote:Not to be cynical, but you think we only sell to nations that hold democracy as the highest virtue? We sell to dictatorships routinely. Betrayal is actually relatively rare. I love Israel but they've had no problem selling secrets to China.

So how do we reconcile these contradictions? And who would have thought our no holds barred withdrawal from the middle East could have resulted in a power vacuum? Who saw that coming? (Everyone)


I don't disagree, but just because we have sold military gear to some not-so-great dudes to further diplomatic objectives (and continue to do so) doesn't mean that we ought not learn from the instances where it has bit us in the past. The F-35 is also not your average piece of kit, and should not be treated in the same vain as a Stinger missile or an F-5.

Regarding the Isreali's, I have little doubt that Isreal, Japan, and South Korea will all attempt to reverse engineer the F-35 to some degree. Japan and South Korea have 5th Gen programs of there own, and will likely try to leverage whatever they can to further those domestic projects. The distinction is that those countries have stable Government's that aren't openly undermining the US.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 00:11
by XanderCrews
durahawk wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:Not to be cynical, but you think we only sell to nations that hold democracy as the highest virtue? We sell to dictatorships routinely. Betrayal is actually relatively rare. I love Israel but they've had no problem selling secrets to China.

So how do we reconcile these contradictions? And who would have thought our no holds barred withdrawal from the middle East could have resulted in a power vacuum? Who saw that coming? (Everyone)


I don't disagree, but just because we have sold military gear to some not-so-great dudes to further diplomatic objectives (and continue to do so) doesn't mean that we ought not learn from the instances where it has bit us in the past. The F-35 is also not your average piece of kit, and should not be treated in the same vain as a Stinger missile or an F-5.

Regarding the Isreali's, I have little doubt that Isreal, Japan, and South Korea will all attempt to reverse engineer the F-35 to some degree. Japan and South Korea have 5th Gen programs of there own, and will likely try to leverage whatever they can to further those domestic projects. The distinction is that those countries have stable Government's that aren't openly undermining the US.



Israel has previously sold military tech to China. I'm not talking reverse engineering. Google it

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 12:32
by laos
The problem with Turkey is more general. It's not restricted to F-35. They are NATO members and have access to NATO secrets both technical and operational. Their officers serve in NATO headquarters. With the purge in armed forces that is happening right now, I assume that no pro-western officer will be left serving. If Turkish government is closer to Qatar, Iran and Russia then to NATO and US then it's better for OPSEC to discontinue their membership.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 13:58
by lbk000
Not so easy, Turkey has one key feature Erdogan won't ever purge -- location. If NATO drops Turkey, the dagger pointed at Russia's stomach will suddenly turn into a sword thrust into the Mediterranean. Access to the Black Sea would disappear, the Suez would be under Turkey's shadow, and the ability of the West to assure the security of Israel and Greece (however noncontributory they may be to Western efforts) would be thrown in jeopardy. All this together would constitute a massive loss of both security and prestige -- quite frankly, a disaster, for NATO.

Like it or not, Turkey has been the key of the orient for Europe since forever, and the land is going nowhere. For now the West seems to be content with having a bad friend, because it is preferable to having a sworn enemy.

Furthermore, I believe US strategic planners are not nearly so naive to believe a monopoly could be held over stealth. It is simply a question of how much of a lead in experience the US can have, and 40 years has been plenty. With Russia and China now putting effort into stealth designs of their own, it is strategically sound for the US to proliferate stealth technology, because while it may somewhat blunt the US's advantage, it blunts Russia and China even more.

In the end, remember that the F-35 was designed to be exported from the get-go. For an innovative nation like the US, materiel technologies are relatively trivial to advance. Paying a price in technologies for a strategic feature that cannot be engineered is, while not a coup, ultimately still in the US's favor.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 19:55
by durahawk
lbk000 wrote:Like it or not, Turkey has been the key of the orient for Europe since forever, and the land is going nowhere. For now the West seems to be content with having a bad friend, because it is preferable to having a sworn enemy.


I think this is a pretty accurate assessment of the situation, but it's a fine line that is getting increasingly thinner. Turkey is the party dictating the terms.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 20:41
by vilters
Wrong title :
Turkey and its population is not the problem.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 19:56
by archeman
vilters wrote:Wrong title :
Turkey and its population is not the problem.


I'm not sure that is entirely true, and I'm not sure that Problem is the right word for it. Problem for Status Quo is probably a better way to describe it.

One of the bulwark tenets of the previous Turkish governments was support for Secularist approach to it's population.
The current government could not have accomplished this takeover without a significant portion of the Population also rejecting the notion of Secularist beliefs.

There is no reason to believe that somehow magically Turkey escaped the Islamist Fundamentalist wave that moved across the Middle East.

Perhaps wise minds in the 'West' can see opportunities in this change that my humble mind cannot...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 20:08
by white_lightning35
Maybe Turkey could use a good old-fashioned coup, not a fake one like erdogan staged. :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 20:52
by botsing
archeman wrote:The current government could not have accomplished this takeover without a significant portion of the Population also rejecting the notion of Secularist beliefs.

The big issue with Turkey and it's voting population is that there is is a big difference between the voting majority in the cities and those on the countryside.

The majority of the voters in the cities support secularism while the majority on the countryside rejects it. As an interesting side-note: the average person in the city has a better education than those on the countryside.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 21:32
by spazsinbad
US lawmaker wants to block F-35 sales to Turkey over embassy brawl
07 Jul 2017 Joe Gould and Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — A Democratic lawmaker from Rhode Island is seeking to block the U.S. sale of Lockheed Martin-made F-35 fighter jets to Turkey over an attack on protesters outside the Turkish ambassador’s residence in Washington two months ago. Rep. David Cicilline, a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, has proposed the ban as an amendment to the 2018 National Defense Authorization Act, which was passed by the House Armed Services Committee last month....

...The amendment highlights the complicated U.S. relationship with Turkey, a key NATO ally and home to Incirlik Air Base. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has criticized Washington over its support for Kurdish groups fighting the Islamic State that Ankara considers terrorist organizations. The Trump administration has walked a tightrope, generally praising Turkey, despite widespread criticism Turkey has become more authoritarian following a coup attempt late last year....

...Lockheed Martin was aware before the amendment was published of emerging congressional concerns about F-35 sales to Turkey and closely watching for developments. During an interview at the Paris Air Show last month, Orlando Carvalho, Lockheed’s vice president of aeronautics, told Defense News that the company will stick to the current program of record until told otherwise.

“Members obviously have the freedom to ex press [made odd spelling to stop the word from becoming a live link] the concerns that they have, but obviously, that becomes a matter that has to be addressed between Congress and the Department of Defense,” he said. “So while we’re aware of it, we’re not taking any specific action. We’re continuing to execute the program of record. And we’ll continue to do so unless we receive formal direction from our customer, from the Department of Defense and the [Joint Program Office] to do something different.”

Turkey is slated to get its first F-35s as part of the 12th lot of aircraft. Lockheed and the Defense Department hope to come to an agreement on lot 11 this year, and batches 12 through 14 are currently under negotiation as a block buy for international customers.

At the Paris Air Show, Jeff Babione, Lockheed’s F-35 program manager, noted that Turkey plays a “significant” role in the production of all F-35 aircraft. As a subcontractor to Northrop Grumman, Turkish defense companies, including its largest firm, Turkish Aerospace Industries, manufacture a large portion of the center fuselage.

Carvalho maintained that despite the political turmoil in Turkey, F-35 suppliers and related intellectual property in the country remain safe.

“To date, we haven’t seen anything that is markedly different in the places where we operate, from a security point of view, whether it’s people’s safety and security, cybersecurity, whatever, we haven’t seen anything that has been markedly different,” he said. “If the United States changes its policy with regards to Turkey, then clearly we’d have to work with our customer to then determine what actions would have to be taken in response for that.”"

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/us- ... assy-brawl

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 05:25
by spazsinbad
Just to illustrate 'not all Turks are alike politically' and they are going to protesteth muchly:

Crowds rally against Turkish government 10 Jul 2017 SKYnews
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/eu ... nment.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 05:38
by optimist
XanderCrews wrote:Israel has previously sold military tech to China. I'm not talking reverse engineering. Google it


You can put Japan on that list too. Only it was to Russia
You can put P&W selling apache engine tech to China, through Canada.
It will finish ip a long list.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 06:30
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:[...A Democratic lawmaker from Rhode Island is seeking to block the U.S. sale of Lockheed Martin-made F-35 fighter jets to Turkey ..]


.....wow, I hate agreeing with this guy, but.....don't do this on a public street, regardless....
take pictures, etc, but don't come out of the embassy and attack the aggravators/ protesters.....

...what you do in your country is mostly your business, not here! Erdogan should acknowledge and detest the attack, maybe not "accept" the protesters!....Turkey is in NATO and the mutual respect should be required, by both NATO parties!
:(

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 07:04
by arian
At the risk of attracting a certain character who, hopefully, has disappeared from F-16.net (he hasn't spammed in a while. Lets not jinx it)...the problems in Turkey and with Turkey have little to do with dictatorships or secularism or these things, in my opinion. These are Western issues and concepts. Democracy isn't a criteria the US has used, or should use, on whom it allies with. Most of the countries in third world or newly industrialized world were dictatorships when we allied with them, and most didn't become democracies until fairly recently in the 90s. And democracies in these countries are usually chaos, mob rule, or bipolar in nature. So I personally don't care about that. Some countries can't have democracy nor should they ever try (eg Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya...the usual)

Secluarism in that part of the world simply means people who live in the 21st century vs those who live in the 18th century. But secularism isn't all it's cut out to be. Secularism in the third world is usually radical leftism and populism (no, not in the sense the US media uses the term to describe Trump. I'm talking mob rule). Basically what we've seen in Egypt since their revolution, which keep in mind was mostly a secular revolution by "young facebook users". Most of them were crazy Marxists.

Mtrman says PKK/YPG are Marxist Trotsykiets etc. Yeah, so what? Pretty much every "secular" group in the ME has its roots in some form of Marxism or at least is what we in the West would call radical leftists. Same goes for much of Turkey's political movements and the "secular urban young". Remember when they were protesting over a mall that was going to be build in some park in Istanbul? Communist flags everywhere, violent leftists everywhere. What is a "modern urban secular movement" in the ME is indistinguishable from what in the West experienced with Occupy Wall Street. So they're all the same s**t as far as I'm concerned. None of them are pro-Western. None of them share the same values we do. None of them are worth our support, as far as I'm concerned.

That was the big argument for the US to support the Arab Spring in Egypt and Tunisia and elsewhere early on. No you can't just put it all on the feet of Obama. In the early days of Tahrir Square, almost all Republicans were saying why isn't Obama supporting the protesters etc. They reversed their tune pretty quickly once Mubarak was overthrown, but initially that was the argument from the US right as well. Turns out...there are no good guys in that part of the world. Secular, democracy blah blah blah. Those are empty words in this context. Saudi Arabia is a religious dictatorship...but hell, I like their government and trust their government a lot more than many others. The Shah was a dictator, and he was good too.

The problem is the people in all these ME countries. The people, whether they are religious fundamentalists, or secular modernists, are by and large pretty damn volatile, bipolar, and prone to fantasies. They can't be trusted very much with popular rule. Yes there are plenty of exceptions: in almost all those cases they are either cultural, ethnic or socio-economic minorities (like in Lebanon, where the "not so crazy" ones are both cultural minorities (the French-speakers), or religious minorities (Christians and Druze)). The reason why the...people...are a problem in most of the third world is because in the third world there is no such thing as a middle class. There's upper class elite, and those still living in the 18th century, with a small middle class of merchants. That's why there's always problems when they become more democratic: the mob is huge and very dumb, and almost instantly leads right back to dictatorships like Erdogan's

The question is: are they a reliable long-term partner of the West. The problem with Turkey is that it is not a reliable partner. It is a partner which threatens you at every turn and which hates your guts. It is a partner who's mouth is bigger than its brain.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 23:02
by spazsinbad
US official: If Turkey buys Russian systems, they can’t plug into NATO tech
16 Nov 2017 Valerie Insinna

"DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — If Turkey moves forward with its buy of a Russian air defense system, it will not be permitted to plug into NATO technology, and further action may be forthcoming that could affect the country’s acquisition or operation of the F-35, a top Air Force official said Wednesday....

...Heidi Grant, deputy undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs, was unable to say exactly what course of action the United States would pursue if Turkey purchases the S-400. “As a major NATO ally, we haven’t really looked into this yet,” she said in a Nov. 15 interview. “We’re going to have to start looking at, if they are going to go through with this, how we can be interoperable in the future. But right now, I can tell you our policies do not allow us to be interoperable with that system.”

Further complicating the issue is the planned delivery of Turkey’s first F-35s in 2018. Analysts worry that Turkey operating both the S-400 and F-35 together could compromise the jet’s security, as any data collected by the air defense system and obtained by Russia could help expose the joint strike fighter’s vulnerabilities. For a platform like the F-35, whose major strengths are its stealth and data fusion capabilities, that would be a disaster.

Grant agreed that a S-400 acquisition creates issues for Turkey’s use of the F-35. “It’s a significant concern, not only to the United States, because we need to protect this high end technology, fifth-generation technology” but for “all of our partners and allies that have already purchased the F-35,” she said. As far as potential actions the United States might take, Grant said the government will have to work through its options....

...What happens next?
Neither Grant nor Pavel have been willing to detail how the United States and NATO could respond to Turkey’s S-400 procurement, especially with regards to Turkey’s role in the F-35 program, and there’s no clear historical precedent.

Whenever the United States makes an agreement to export weapons to a foreign partner, that country is required to sign an agreement allowing the U.S. to do end-use monitoring to ensure it is not compromising sensitive technologies or information. That can include anything from a “check on how they are using the technology, who is on the same base with them [and] access that other countries may have to our high end technology,” noted Grant.

But the F-35 is not a typical program, being conceived of from the get-go as a partnership among countries that would pay to develop the jet, as well as reap the industrial benefits of building it.

Turkey is entrenched in the program on multiple levels — from the money it has spent to help design it, the more than 100 planes it plans to buy, to Turkish Aerospace Industries’ work on the center fuselage of every F-35, and the country’s role as a sustainment hub for the international joint strike fighter community. It’s not exactly clear what would happen if the United States rolls back its participation in the program.

Turkey’s industrial contributions to the F-35 are “easily replicable elsewhere” should the U.S. government decide to drop Turkey as an international partner on the program, Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst for the Teal Group, told Defense News in an interview ahead of Dubai Airshow.

“The real greater concern is just pushing a large emerging military and economic power out of NATO and into something different and not at all in Western interests,” he said. “It’s a very big deal. It’s so big that I don’t think anyone knows quite what to do with it.”

Individual members of Congress have raised concerns about the Turkish government’s recent shift from NATO, but so far have not sounded alarm bells about an S-400 acquisition. In the past, lawmakers have had difficulty implementing restrictions on the country’s acquisition of the F-35. For instance, Rep. David Cicilline, a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, tried to block sales of the F-35 to Turkey in July after Turkish security personnel attacked protesters in Washington earlier in 2017. However, the amendment ultimately died without ever getting a vote....

...“They are a sovereign nation, they can choose to go with other partners,” Grant said of the UAE’s work with Russian on a fifth-gen fighter. “But I have made it very clear that it makes it a little more difficult for our partnership as a coalition because we will not be interoperable. As of right now, our current policies are, we would not be interoperable with Russian equipment.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... nato-tech/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 03:18
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:...... further action may be forthcoming that could affect the country’s acquisition or operation of the F-35, a top Air Force official said Wednesday.......Heidi Grant, deputy undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs, was unable to say exactly what course of action the United States would pursue if Turkey purchases the S-400....


....talk is cheap, as always....but.... time is short!!

LRIP 10 is now building and delivers for "2018" (next year for you who can't count) and.....Turkey will receive 2 F-35A Block 3F before the end of the year. ...and ....and

LRIP 11 is around the corner with... 4 F-35A Block 3F followed by ....wait for it... the

MYP-1 with (yes, you guessed it) 24 more F-35A Block 3F for a grand total of 30 F-35A Block 3F by the end of 2022 (5 years)!!

The Luke AFB 63rd FS (01Aug16) will train F-35 Lightning II fighter pilots as a joint international effort between Turkey and the United States. Turkish and American pilots will fly both Turkish and American F-35s under the guidance of American instructor pilots.

....so the Turkish/ Lockheed association for the last 25ish yrs. of building and delivering 240ish F-16s (soon all to be block 50+) and SDD support for the F-35 program to the tune of $12 Billion dollars in opportunities as a 15yr. Level 3 partner is going to be more than "sorry, we aren't selling you the F-35.. nahny!..nahny!"

....regardless of personal opinion of politics, this program looks to be not only on schedule but on budget!
:)

IMHO the Turkish F-35As from LRIP11 and MYP-1 (28 a/c) will all deliver to Turkish squadrons at Turkish airbases (maybe in 3s or 4s like Norway); who and where is unknown at this time!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 14:22
by mk82
The problem goes both ways. I am sure NATO would love to take a Turkish S400 system apart.....bolt by bolt.....Mig 25 stylee. What an intelligence coup that will be! I have a funny feeling that Russia would sell Turkey a half arsed version of the S400......can’t show all your cards to your adversaries!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 16:52
by SpudmanWP
Except that while Russia sells "Monkey Models", we don't.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 03:11
by madrat
Interesting claim, but obviously untrue.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 05:00
by SpudmanWP
Which claim?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 05:06
by madrat
That the U.S. does not sell the 'monkey model' exports.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 05:45
by SpudmanWP
madrat wrote:That the U.S. does not sell the 'monkey model' exports.


Do I really have to dig up, again, multiple quotes that all F-35s are virtually identical and the only difference relates to IFF & Crypto?

Not to mention that current F-15/16 exports are better than the ones flying in the US.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 07:25
by Dragon029
While that's generally the case with aircraft, don't forget that there's things like M1A1 / M1A2s sold to partners with downgraded armour, etc.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 09:03
by SpudmanWP
The DU armor was an addon, not a downgrade.

I almost forgot, allies get AIM-120Ds, ESSMs, Mk-41s, B-61s, the Aegis system, etc.

If anything the US selling an MM would be an "exception" to the rule.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 12:17
by mas
The Turkey problem is basically Erdogan, an openly Islamic dictator with a sultan complex. The guy has no intelligence or sense worthy of the name. He tried to pick a fight with Russia using NATO as his backup but backed down once Russian sanctions started crucifying his economy. He regularly picks rude fights with the EU, Iraq, Syria, recently admonished Israel over Kurdistan, slated NATO and he's now cozying up to Iran. Basically whoever feeds his eqo is ok in his book and vice versa. He is a complete loose cannon and does the West really want to enable this loose cannon some more with some very hard to shoot down F-35s ?!

An intelligent strategic decision should be made about this especially when the majority of the Turkish population now sees the US as an enemy primarily over the support to Isis fighting Kurds.

http://m.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkish- ... ll-2659856

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 12:48
by optimist
mother hen doesn't like it, when a chick goes off and gets another worm. The shoot don't shoot software is strong in this one, usa sets the targets. as to the Russians and china crawling all over it. turkey will have to get behind Israel and japan.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 14:44
by mtrman
Well, there are some people (such as mas) in this thread who jumps to the opportunity of attacking Islam and Turks by using the Erdogan.

1) He is a politician who is elected democratically. If you really wonder why he was elected, then you should study a bit about modern Turkish history and how the muslims were suppressed for many years.

2) Before speaking about Erdogan's actions and preferrences, you should learn about the following items, which are the driving reasons of today's situation:
- Who is directly, mentally and pysically carried out the coup attempt last year? (Gulen organisation)
- Who is Gulen and when and how his enormiously big (economically and politically) structure established. (almost 40 years ago, directly established/supported by USA/CIA (search about Kasım Gülek and Fethullah Gülen))
- What is the purpose of this establishment? (a global and long term project of CIA which aim to gain political and military strength in muslim countries, and also to change islam religion for the benefit of the western world)
- How USA and Germany are still clearly protecting Gulen and his group.
- Who is pure marxist/communist/terrorist Abdullah Ocalan, PKK and PYD.
- Are USA and Germany clearly and shamelessly support PKK/PYD? (Unfortunately yes)
- Who is the gangster Daesh (ISIS)? Who established them? How the Daesh saved the Assad?
- How the anti-muslim, anti-arab, anti-turkish PKK/PYD state is being tried to be established in the northern Syria (and Iraq) by perfectly using Daesh?
- How and why the uprising in Syria started? How Assad/Iran/Russia killed 600-700 thousand people by dropping barrel bombs everyday for 6 years, how they managed to flee millions of people? How they succeeded to make Syria an Alawit/Shia country, which had 80% sunni muslims majority before the uprising?
- Why USA and many western countries did almost nothing militarily and economically for those millions of people, which Turkey now hosts 3 million of them???

I tried to provide some short answers to some of them. If you would like to argue about the above questions, I am ready to slam the rock solid facts to your face. I don't have so much time, but I can do. On the other hand I don't want to turn this very nice forum into a political arena because of some liers.

In very short summary, it is the western world who clearly betrayed Turkey in the last 6-7 years...

And what about S400? I actually don't understand why we purchase them. It gave the Turkey/Muslim haters the reason to politically attack. On the other hand, can one or two S400 batteries provide a strong air space protection? Of course no. So what is the reason? I really don't know...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 16:42
by mas
Turkey was doing a pretty good impersonation of covertly supporting Isis when it suited them i.e. when they were attacking Kurds and Assad.

https://www.rt.com/news/337079-turkey-i ... -evidence/
https://www.rt.com/news/340897-isis-oil ... ria-turkey
https://www.rt.com/news/330204-israel-turkey-isis-oil/
https://www.rt.com/news/327222-isis-fig ... -training/
https://www.rt.com/news/326728-iraq-rub ... -isis-oil/
https://www.rt.com/news/325044-isis-oil-turkey-iraq/

How do you solve your Kurdish problem, how about giving them the state they were promised in 1920. You will never end an indigenous people's desire for self-determination by oppression.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29702440

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 20:00
by optimist
It even makes it hard to believe in Santa Clause now. Fancy a state doing underhanded, corrupted things, that it feels is in someones best interest.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 20:05
by optimist
Dragon029 wrote:While that's generally the case with aircraft, don't forget that there's things like M1A1 / M1A2s sold to partners with downgraded armour, etc.

aus didn't want anything with depleted uranium, even the gun had to clean and never fired a DU round. the only thing I'm sure of is that in wartime, that political decision will be thrown out the window.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 20:56
by mas
The Sultan is still fuming, perhaps he might leave NATO of his own accord ...

https://www.rt.com/news/410283-nato-nor ... y-erdogan/

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has rebuffed a NATO apology for what he called “impudence” during the alliance’s drills in Norway, where he was depicted on an “enemies chart.” The scandal led to the withdrawal of Turkish troops from the exercise.

On Friday, Ankara ordered its troops to pull out of NATO military games in Norway after the incumbent Turkish leader and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of the modern Turkish state, appeared in an “enemy” list. Following the scandal, both NATO and Norway offered their apologies for the incident, saying that the message did not reflect their views.

“There can be no alliance like that," Erdogan said on Friday, adding that even the removal of those names would not change the decision. On Saturday, despite the officials’ apologies and affirmations, the insulted leader remained steadfast, saying that NATO cannot easily get away with the incident.

"Yesterday, you have witnessed the impudence at NATO exercises in Norway. There are some mistakes that cannot be committed by fools but only by vile people,” Erdogan said in a televised speech. He added that the incident shows “a reflection of a distorted point of view that we have observed in NATO for a while."

"This matter cannot be covered over with a simple apology," Erdogan added.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 21:39
by spazsinbad
'mas' likes to quote RT & APA - here is an alternate view of above RT story.
NATO apologizes after Turkey’s president shown as enemy during drill
17 Nov 2017 Suzan Fraser, The Associated Press

"...Details of the incident were sketchy. Erdogan said Ataturk’s picture and his own name were featured on an “enemy chart” during the drills. The individual who posted the material was described as a Norwegian civil contractor seconded by Norway, and not a NATO employee.

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg issued a statement saying: “I apologize for the offense caused.” He said the incident was the result of an “individual’s actions” and didn’t reflect the views of the alliance.

He added that the individual was removed from the exercise and an investigation was underway. “It will be for the Norwegian authorities to decide on any disciplinary action,” Stoltenberg added. “Turkey is a valued NATO ally, which makes important contributions to allied security.”

Norwegian Defence Minister Frank Bakke-Jensen apologized for the incident. “The message does not reflect Norway’s views or policies and I apologize for the content of the message,” Bakke-Jensen said in a statement. He added that “Turkey is an important ally in NATO, and we value our good cooperation.”

The Joint Warfare Centre is a multinational NATO unit based in Stavanger, 186 miles southwest of Oslo. It is currently led by Maj. Gen. Andrzej Reudowicz of Poland. According to its website, it has a staff of 250 made up of civilians from 11 NATO member states, including Turkey.

In March, the Norwegian government caused fury in Turkey by granting political asylum to five Turkish officers based in Norway who had refused to return home after the failed July 2016 coup attempt in Turkey. The five officers said that they feared being arrested and tortured in Turkey."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/training-si ... ing-drill/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 21:48
by mas
That's not an alternative, just the prelude to the response. Like I said, he's a loose cannon, probably the most unstable leader of any country and he's got some pretty stiff competition on that score at the moment :).

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 22:42
by spazsinbad
My concern was with NATO and the story/NATO apology details.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 23:04
by krorvik
Looks like a norwegian officer, with turkish background, is the offender on the military side. In addition, a civilian employee is said to have been a part.

Official apologies by norwegian defense secretary and NATO general secretary is likely to lay the official problem to rest - comms through regular channels does not seem to be affected.

Erdogan is sure to try milking it domestically though.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 23:08
by optimist
Indonesia had a similar dummy spit with the Aussies, this year. It seems to be part of life, that they don't want to be red force and such. :devil:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/indonesia-a ... tltai.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 02:38
by nutshell
mas wrote:The Sultan is still fuming, perhaps he might leave NATO of his own accord ...

https://www.rt.com/news/410283-nato-nor ... y-erdogan/

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has rebuffed a NATO apology for what he called “impudence” during the alliance’s drills in Norway, where he was depicted on an “enemies chart.” The scandal led to the withdrawal of Turkish troops from the exercise.

On Friday, Ankara ordered its troops to pull out of NATO military games in Norway after the incumbent Turkish leader and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of the modern Turkish state, appeared in an “enemy” list. Following the scandal, both NATO and Norway offered their apologies for the incident, saying that the message did not reflect their views.

“There can be no alliance like that," Erdogan said on Friday, adding that even the removal of those names would not change the decision. On Saturday, despite the officials’ apologies and affirmations, the insulted leader remained steadfast, saying that NATO cannot easily get away with the incident.

"Yesterday, you have witnessed the impudence at NATO exercises in Norway. There are some mistakes that cannot be committed by fools but only by vile people,” Erdogan said in a televised speech. He added that the incident shows “a reflection of a distorted point of view that we have observed in NATO for a while."

"This matter cannot be covered over with a simple apology," Erdogan added.


I'm afraid he won't gtfo any time soon :(

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 02:51
by popcorn
Erdogan has POTUS on speed dial so he'll get his F-35s in all likelihood.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 03:57
by rheonomic
popcorn wrote:Erdogan has POTUS on speed dial so he'll get his F-35s in all likelihood.


Let's just include some copies of Luttwak's Coup d'État: A Practical Handbook as a bonus so they get it right next time.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 16:21
by mas
Turkey, not just me, being targeted: Erdoğan

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... gan-122653

p.s. they sure are an excitable paranoid lot.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 21:14
by krorvik
It's important to note that the last article points to a domestic rally. The rhethoric internationally is much more subdued (although worded to match the stronger language used for his own people).

Also, note that this seems to be of use in gathering support from opposition. Cue conspiracy theories ;)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:02
by durahawk
krorvik wrote:It's important to note that the last article points to a domestic rally. The rhethoric internationally is much more subdued (although worded to match the stronger language used for his own people).

Also, note that this seems to be of use in gathering support from opposition. Cue conspiracy theories ;)


Clearly, the only logical explanation is that Gullen has now begun to seize control of NATO itself in attempt to overthrow the Turkish government... all from from his apartment command center in Pennsylvania!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:05
by tincansailor
Congress needs to get involved, and ban F-35 sales to Turkey, before it's too late. They are on their way out of NATO, and will be joining Russia in an alliance to dived the ME. They will pass on all F-35 technology, to Russia, and China. Trump might as well give an F-35 away to Putin, as a personal gift.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:51
by optimist
What makes you think he hasn't? Unless people have their head in a bucket of rightwing sand, This whole russia thing with the US stinks. The US was never noted for uncorrupted politicians, but it was domestic, corporate controlled. This takes the cake.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 23:39
by white_lightning35
REEEEEEEEE!... The discussion of internal politics and Cheeto Benito! Reeeeeeee....

On a different note, all I say is that it would be wonderful if Erdogan went erdo-gone and replaced with a non islamic dictator, and the f-35 fiasco goes poof, and then the President pardons the Turkey for Thanksgiving. Something to be truly thankful for. If only the West could step up it's coup game.....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 02:12
by spazsinbad
Turkey may remove US radar if F-35s not delivered on schedule
16 Nov 2017 Editor

"In a bid to dissuade Turkey from going forward with the purchase of the powerful S-400 missile defense system, the U.S. had warned that such a move “would jeopardize the sale of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey.”...

...In retaliation to the American blackmail, Ankara may take measures of its own in response, atop of which is the possible dismantling of the powerful Malatya- Kürecik AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012....

...As part of its agreements with NATO, Turkey has given permission for the deployment of the radar to its territory, much to the dismay of Russia and Iran, who expressed their sharp opposition to such a move....

...In case Turkey decides to dismantle the Kürecik radar in response to the ongoing attempts by the U.S. to use the F-35 jets to blackmail Turkey, Israel will lose its “early warning system” in case of a missile launch from eastern or northern Iran.

Despite the fact that the S-400 missile defense system will run independently from the NATO network, the F-35 jets deal is being used to blackmail Turkey, whose patience is thinning after multiple attempts to block the purchase of the advanced Russian system. By 2030, Turkey is scheduled to receive a total of 116 fifth generation F-35 fighter jets, parts of which are produced domestically by TAI-TUSAŞ."

Source: http://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkey ... le-2808663

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 02:31
by maus92
white_lightning35 wrote:REEEEEEEEE!... The discussion of internal politics and Cheeto Benito! Reeeeeeee....

On a different note, all I say is that it would be wonderful if Erdogan went erdo-gone and replaced with a non islamic dictator, and the f-35 fiasco goes poof, and then the President pardons the Turkey for Thanksgiving. Something to be truly thankful for. If only the West could step up it's coup game.....


They already tried the coup angle last July, with negative results. They aren't very good at it, not enough recent practice. Erdy is still pissed about the Kurds.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 07:20
by optimist
Jared is in charge of the ME, I'm sure he will sort it out tomorrow. At least he refused to be informed on the history of the ME as it was irreverent to day. So he won't be burdened with that and has a clean sheet. He has already sorted the Israeli/Palestine issue. It was so easy, as Trump said.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 07:34
by Corsair1963
I am sure cooler heads will prevail in Turkey. As much of their Defense Sector is dependent on the US and Europe...... :roll:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 10:40
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:
Turkey may remove US radar if F-35s not delivered on schedule
16 Nov 2017 Editor

"In a bid to dissuade Turkey from going forward with the purchase of the powerful S-400 missile defense system, the U.S. had warned that such a move “would jeopardize the sale of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey.”...

...In retaliation to the American blackmail, Ankara may take measures of its own in response, atop of which is the possible dismantling of the powerful Malatya- Kürecik AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012....

...As part of its agreements with NATO, Turkey has given permission for the deployment of the radar to its territory, much to the dismay of Russia and Iran, who expressed their sharp opposition to such a move....

...In case Turkey decides to dismantle the Kürecik radar in response to the ongoing attempts by the U.S. to use the F-35 jets to blackmail Turkey, Israel will lose its “early warning system” in case of a missile launch from eastern or northern Iran.

Despite the fact that the S-400 missile defense system will run independently from the NATO network, the F-35 jets deal is being used to blackmail Turkey, whose patience is thinning after multiple attempts to block the purchase of the advanced Russian system. By 2030, Turkey is scheduled to receive a total of 116 fifth generation F-35 fighter jets, parts of which are produced domestically by TAI-TUSAŞ."

Source: http://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkey ... le-2808663


....Erdogan is in the Catbirds seat, with both Russia/ Iran and NATO eating out of his hand. Three quarters of the Turks are Sunni, so who is going to attack Turkey, the Kurds? And that needs a S-400 and radar, not! Erdogan will get his F-35s as long as he stays in NATO, less they continue to do stupid Norway stuff. Syria is a perfect example, they allied with Russia/ Iran and lost three quarters of their country to the Sunnis and the Kurds. Turkey, today without NATO can stomp Iran into a grease spot with their other Sunni allies. He will bide his time and get his jets, along with his NATO allies.
...so what's new?
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 00:32
by tincansailor
....Erdogan is in the Catbirds seat, with both Russia/ Iran and NATO eating out of his hand. Three quarters of the Turks are Sunni, so who is going to attack Turkey, the Kurds? And that needs a S-400 and radar, not! Erdogan will get his F-35s as long as he stays in NATO, less they continue to do stupid Norway stuff. Syria is a perfect example, they allied with Russia/ Iran and lost three quarters of their country to the Sunnis and the Kurds. Turkey, today without NATO can stomp Iran into a grease spot with their other Sunni allies. He will bide his time and get his jets, along with his NATO allies.
...so what's new?
:)

[/quote]

Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 00:45
by steve2267
For argument's sake, let's say Turkey is denied the F-35. Aside from the potential impact to the F-35 program due to a loss of 100+ sales... would such a denial be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back and results in Turkey leaving NATO? After all, that would be a pretty major slap in Erdogan's face.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 03:01
by sunstersun
I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 03:36
by steve2267
sunstersun wrote:I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.


I understand what you are saying about "isn't good for future partners." The flipside to that coin, though, is that just because one has invested 12 years into a particular program as a "junior" partner, do not expect that one can force the other partners, including senior partners, into doing whatever one wants them to do. That is to say, actions have consequences.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 03:54
by Corsair1963
steve2267 wrote:For argument's sake, let's say Turkey is denied the F-35. Aside from the potential impact to the F-35 program due to a loss of 100+ sales... would such a denial be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back and results in Turkey leaving NATO? After all, that would be a pretty major slap in Erdogan's face.




Turkey's Future Defense Plans are based on a number of systems from the West. If, Erdogan tried to leave the Western Alliance and NATO. He maybe facing another attempted coup by the Military! :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 08:23
by mtrman
[/quote]

Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.[/quote]

Tincan, you are soo funny. Historical advantage of geolocation???

Our geolocation is one of the worst in the world in terms of POLITICS and MILITARY CONFLICTS... Right??? Are you so blind to see how the middle east is like for the last 40 years? All of these terrible wars in this region all terribly affect Turkey. What our government is trying to do is to minimize the consequences of those wars/conflicts on our country. And while doing this, we are back-stabbed by our STRATEGIC ALLIES (???) (USA, Germany -> PKK/PYD and Gulen)

And it is soo funny to see that some others are in so much hurry to see the Turkey out of NATO. Their ignorance of the realites are so obvious that, they don't dare to speak about why all of this nonsense actions are taking place, but shamelessly discuss when Turkey will exit NATO. Please let me to remind to those stupid people that, Turkey is a strong member of NATO from very beginning, and served to help to NATO in many crisis from Korea to Kosova and Afghanistan to Baltic, sometimes by the blood of her soldiers.

I am almost sure that our goverment will not take such nonsense decisions, but will definetly continue to struggle politically with some shameless people in some countries.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 09:51
by tincansailor
mtrman wrote:


Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.[/quote]

Tincan, you are soo funny. Historical advantage of geolocation???

Our geolocation is one of the worst in the world in terms of POLITICS and MILITARY CONFLICTS... Right??? Are you so blind to see how the middle east is like for the last 40 years? All of these terrible wars in this region all terribly affect Turkey. What our government is trying to do is to minimize the consequences of those wars/conflicts on our country. And while doing this, we are back-stabbed by our STRATEGIC ALLIES (???) (USA, Germany -> PKK/PYD and Gulen)

And it is soo funny to see that some others are in so much hurry to see the Turkey out of NATO. Their ignorance of the realites are so obvious that, they don't dare to speak about why all of this nonsense actions are taking place, but shamelessly discuss when Turkey will exit NATO. Please let me to remind to those stupid people that, Turkey is a strong member of NATO from very beginning, and served to help to NATO in many crisis from Korea to Kosova and Afghanistan to Baltic, sometimes by the blood of her soldiers.

I am almost sure that our goverment will not take such nonsense decisions, but will definetly continue to struggle politically with some shameless people in some countries.

[/quote]

What is so funny? All nations have geo-strategic advantages they exploit. Turkey is at the crossroads of Europe, and Asia, and the Black Sea, and the Aegean. Turkey has gained very favorable treatment from the Western Powers because of it's strategic location, since 1922. Please don't try to play a martyr role, Turkey has always acted to advance it's own interests. Thanks for joining the war against Hitler on Feb 23, 1945. My condolences for your heavy losses.

When the Soviet Union threatened Turkey after 1945 it was in Turkey's interest to join NATO. In the Post Cold War Period that threat is gone, so Turkey plays this double game, of selling it's self to the highest bidder. Turkey is now becoming an authoritarian theocracy, incompatible with Western liberal democracy. Turkey can hardly claim to be the victim in the Syrian Civil War. ISIS could never have grown so strong without the open support of Turkey, allowing it's supply lines to run though it's territory. Turkey worked to destabilize the Assad regime, in the hopes of establishing an Islamist regime in Syria.

Turkey does what Turkey want's. It refused to open a land front in both Gulf Wars. It invaded, and still occupies a third of Cyprus. It suppresses it's own Kurds, and threatens Kurds in other countries. It bullies Iraq, and Syria. It flirts with Iran, and Russia, sides with Hamas, and bashes Israel. It intimidates Greece, and threatens the Cypriots. It's hostile to Armenia. So Turkey is just a poor victim of the West. To be treated so harshly, after all Turkey has done for them, out of the goodness of their hearts, is just sheer ingratitude.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 12:30
by mtrman
What is so funny? All nations have geo-strategic advantages they exploit. Turkey is at the crossroads of Europe, and Asia, and the Black Sea, and the Aegean. Turkey has gained very favorable treatment from the Western Powers because of it's strategic location, since 1922. Please don't try to play a martyr role, Turkey has always acted to advance it's own interests. Thanks for joining the war against Hitler on Feb 23, 1945. My condolences for your heavy losses.

Are you serious? You can't answer my previous claim, but continue talk about all-nations??? Even go back to the 2nd WW?? Are you critisizing Turkey for staying neutral (which was not strong and rich at that times to hold a war with Nazis)?

When the Soviet Union threatened Turkey after 1945 it was in Turkey's interest to join NATO. In the Post Cold War Period that threat is gone, so Turkey plays this double game, of selling it's self to the highest bidder. Turkey is now becoming an authoritarian theocracy, incompatible with Western liberal democracy. Turkey can hardly claim to be the victim in the Syrian Civil War. ISIS could never have grown so strong without the open support of Turkey, allowing it's supply lines to run though it's territory. Turkey worked to destabilize the Assad regime, in the hopes of establishing an Islamist regime in Syria.

Do not need to talk about your full ignorance about Turkey and NATO cooperation for the last 60 years. But;

- Becoming an authoratian theocracy??? How many times you have visited Turkey in your life? What do you know about what have changed since the Erdogan? Who was supressed in our country? Which rights of people who is non-religious were banned? Which alcohol was banned? Which type of dressing banned or not allowed both in the state rules, or practical life??? Only the most basic rights of the religious people were given back to them during this last 15 years. Even the girls who had a simple head scarf were not allowed to go to the university before. People who was just basically performing their simple religious duties was fired from Governmental bodies.

- Yes, Turkey supported the CIVIL UPRISING in Syria which was aiming the democratic rights of the 80% sunni majority in this country, like many western countries also did. What kind of islamist regime are you talking about???

- Did you mention Daesh (ISIS)? Turkey never supported them, we only supported the Free Syrian Army. In the first years, Daesh acted like regular opposition, but then their true face and agenda become appearent. Daesh hit Turkey many times (in İstanbul, Ankara, etc) and Turkey actively hit Daesh and also actively supported the operations against Daesh by opening her air space and air bases, for the last 3 years. And you can still talk like that?

Let's also talk about who actually created Daesh (ISIS). Let's only look the non-ignorable results of their existence in Syria:
- By fighting against FSA, they magically saved Assad.
- By their terrible criminal acts, they changed the attitude of the world against Syrian uprising, and also against Islam (eventhough their rotten/distorted sect doesn't even represent 1% of total Muslims in the world. And those majority of Muslims also fight against those bastards (hariji) throughout the history. But since those bastards wave a flag which Allah (c.c.) and His Massanger name on it, they are easily shown to the world as Muslims...)
- They first seized land from Arabs and Turkmens, horribly changed the demographics of this region, and then gave those lands to the pure marxist/communist/terroris PKK/PYD. What a success?????? I congratulate your brainmasters... Only a Satan/Evil would have execute such a succesful plan...
You hit not two, perhaps 4-5 birds by using one stone....


Turkey does what Turkey want's. It refused to open a land front in both Gulf Wars. It invaded, and still occupies a third of Cyprus. It suppresses it's own Kurds, and threatens Kurds in other countries. It bullies Iraq, and Syria. It flirts with Iran, and Russia, sides with Hamas, and bashes Israel. It intimidates Greece, and threatens the Cypriots. It's hostile to Armenia. So Turkey is just a poor victim of the West. To be treated so harshly, after all Turkey has done for them, out of the goodness of their hearts, is just sheer ingratitude.

- Cyprus??? Just make some simple search and learn what happened in the Cyprus...

- Are you talking about our Kurdish origin brothers? Even though the Turkish and Kurdish people are like brothers who shared the same history and territories for 1000 years, and have the very same Islam religion, the same deep-state in Turkey also supressed some of their rights for many years. But do you know what Erdogan done? He gave the many rights back to them. Do you need me to send you news, articles, documents about those facts? Sorry, even you can find them very easily by using Google.

Every time you try to distribute your false claims, I will try to inform the others about the facts.

Unfortunately, my country doesn't know anything about telling truth to the world. We don't succeed at establising channels like RT, CNN or PressTV. You succeed to distrupt the facts and show the black as white to the world. But my country does almost nothing to show white as white. So it is up to the individuals like me to spare time and effort to answer some ignorants like you...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 14:25
by sferrin
tincansailor wrote:Congress needs to get involved, and ban F-35 sales to Turkey, before it's too late. They are on their way out of NATO, and will be joining Russia in an alliance to dived the ME. They will pass on all F-35 technology, to Russia, and China. Trump might as well give an F-35 away to Putin, as a personal gift.


This times a hundred. Iran/F-14 all over again.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 14:26
by sferrin
optimist wrote:What makes you think he hasn't? Unless people have their head in a bucket of rightwing sand, This whole russia thing with the US stinks. The US was never noted for uncorrupted politicians, but it was domestic, corporate controlled. This takes the cake.


Wow. Damn son, you must buy your tinfoil by the acre.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 14:29
by sferrin
sunstersun wrote:I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.


They're not so dumb as to not notice WHY they'd be denied to Turkey. All the "optics" show is that a member decided to change sides midway. Only a fool would follow through selling them their best technology.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 15:10
by steve2267
mtrman, can you answer a few questions?

1) Which is more important to Turkey? S-400 or F-35?

2) Why does Turkey announce intentions to purchase S-400? That is, why does Turkey want S-400?

3) Does Turkey understand that her purchase of S-400 is incompatible, from American point of view, with purchase of F-35?

4) If Turkey does purchase S-400, and is subsequently denied F-35, will Turkey remain a valuable NATO member?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 15:49
by durahawk
sferrin wrote:
tincansailor wrote:Congress needs to get involved, and ban F-35 sales to Turkey, before it's too late. They are on their way out of NATO, and will be joining Russia in an alliance to dived the ME. They will pass on all F-35 technology, to Russia, and China. Trump might as well give an F-35 away to Putin, as a personal gift.


This times a hundred. Iran/F-14 all over again.


As someone who has personally written multiple members of that dismally incompetent body of legislature over this very issue and have yet to see a single response, (not even the usual vague canned one) I have little hope of Congress actually getting involved here.

The Amendment proposed to the NDAA this summer apparently didn’t get a single vote
thehill.com/policy/defense/341047-lawmakers-propose-halting-f-35-sale-visas-after-turkish-embassy-fight

My best guess is that this sale has way too much momentum to stop it at this point, and the geopolitical fallout/defense lobbyists have made this issue a third rail to even discuss. Why should the defense industry care? You would think that any exploitation of F-35 technology would be untenable to LM/Pratt/Northrop as it could jeopardize some of those juicy FMS orders not yet on the books. On the other hand (cynicism on), maybe they want the sale to go through and, after all, they stand to gain more than they lose from exploited technology in the form of an insurance guarantee on 6th generation fighter sales. Rinse and repeat.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 19:47
by mtrman
steve2267 wrote:mtrman, can you answer a few questions?

1) Which is more important to Turkey? S-400 or F-35?

2) Why does Turkey announce intentions to purchase S-400? That is, why does Turkey want S-400?

3) Does Turkey understand that her purchase of S-400 is incompatible, from American point of view, with purchase of F-35?

4) If Turkey does purchase S-400, and is subsequently denied F-35, will Turkey remain a valuable NATO member?


Steve,
1) As somebody who is following military aviation and almost everything related with it since teenages, I would answer as F-35, without hesitation...

2) I really don't know and understand... May be to give the US a signal that we are really disappointed and upset because of their back-stabbing of us (PKK/YPG and Gulen). But in technical terms, this purchase give us almost nothing, but a lot of headache. Even if the Russians give fully-functional (not a downgraded one) batteries, we all know that this is not enough. Without any well designed umbrella of IADS, they will be just hard targets that can be taken out with a few well planned SEAD/DEAD missions.

3) We have an army who is almost fully integrated with NATO and western world from very beginning. So I assume at least they really know. But I suspect how well they succeed to show the complete big picture to the politicians.

4) Of course yes. But it would be a big suffer for Turkey to be denied from F-35 both in militarily and politically...

At the end of the day, what I can say is: Turkey should't take such meaningless moves like S-400 purchase, but Turkey should carry out more information campaigns to tell US and German people that how we are being physically and ideologically hurted by their governments actions (PKK/YPG and Gulen)...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 20:14
by tincansailor
Are you serious? You can't answer my previous claim, but continue talk about all-nations??? Even go back to the 2nd WW?? Are you critisizing Turkey for staying neutral (which was not strong and rich at that times to hold a war with Nazis)?

The above quote did address your previous claim. Being a bridge between continents, and controlling trade routes is an advantage. Yes there has been 70 years of wars in the region, and Turkey hasn't been involved in any of them, till the current conflict in Syria. Has Turkey accepted massive refuge populations from earlier wars? No.

As for WWII after the Germans invaded Russia, and certainly after Stalingrad, they were in no position to attack Turkey. All Turkey would have had to do was stop selling Chromite to Germany. If they had cut off Chromite sales in Jan 1943 German steel production would have ended in mid 1944. Instead Turkey sold to both sides. The allies were buying Turkish Chromite along with agricultural goods to keep it out of German hands. The trade only stopped when the Soviets occupied the Balkans, and cut the land route between Germany, and Turkey in the summer of 1944.

Turkey made a mint out of WWII getting arms, money, and economic assistance from both sides. They also had mutual defense pacts with both sides. If Turkey had joined the war say in late 1943, the Balkans Countries might have avoided 40 years of being trapped behind the Iron Curtain.

[
b]Do not need to talk about your full ignorance about Turkey and NATO cooperation for the last 60 years. But;


Yes Turkey was a good NATO ally for a lot of the Cold War. They fought in Korea, but nowhere else, and were a troublesome ally on many occasions. Post Cold War they have been a lot of trouble. Turkey is mad that NATO hasn't helped then kill Kurds, or intimidate Greeks. True a lot of the problems in Syria have been caused by Obama's inaction, but Turkey siring the ethnic pot isn't helping.

- They first seized land from Arabs and Turkmens, horribly changed the demographics of this region, and then gave those lands to the pure marxist/communist/terroris PKK/PYD. What a success?????? I congratulate your brainmasters... Only a Satan/Evil would have execute such a succesful plan...
You hit not two, perhaps 4-5 birds by using one stone....[/b]

Again what you complaining about is that the Kurds gained some land, and autonomy.


- Cyprus??? Just make some simple search and learn what happened in the Cyprus...

Turkey is the only country in the world that accepts it justification for what it did. Every other country on Earth regards what the Turks did as an act of unprovoked aggression.

- Are you talking about our Kurdish origin brothers? Even though the Turkish and Kurdish people are like brothers who shared the same history and territories for 1000 years, and have the very same Islam religion, the same deep-state in Turkey also supressed some of their rights for many years. But do you know what Erdogan done? He gave the many rights back to them. Do you need me to send you news, articles, documents about those facts? Sorry, even you can find them very easily by using Google.

The Kurds are indigenes to the region, for thousands of years. The Turks arrived in the area about a thousand years ago, coming from central Asia. They conquered the Kurds, Greeks, and other people living in the Anatolian region. They have a mixed record of relations with their neighbors. In the last 100 years they have expelled the Greeks, exterminated the Armenians, and oppressed the Kurds. Erdogan has made war on his Kurds, partly because he needs enemies to justify his oppression of the rest of his subjects. How can the Kurds have political rights when no one else in the country does?

[/quote][/quote]Every time you try to distribute your false claims, I will try to inform the others about the facts.

Unfortunately, my country doesn't know anything about telling truth to the world. We don't succeed at establising channels like RT, CNN or PressTV. You succeed to distrupt the facts and show the black as white to the world. But my country does almost nothing to show white as white. So it is up to the individuals like me to spare time and effort to answer some ignorants like you...[/quote]

Turkey's record is a hard sell. The Germans have repented for their sins of the Holocaust. Turkey can't even admit to carrying out the Armenian Genocide. It's better that they join with Russia, then NATO. Russia doesn't care about any moral considerations, the only thing that matters is raw naked power. You can be a dictatorship, attack your neighbors, lie about your past, or anything else you find convenient.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 12:22
by mas
https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2017/11/275815.htm

Okay, Ilhan. Go right ahead.

QUESTION: Thank you. On Turkey. There is a gold trader whose name is Reza Zarrab who has been arrested for 18 months, and his case – his trial is about to start next week. It’s a judicial process, but Turkish President Erdogan and many of leading figures from the governing party have been talking about it. And just today Turkish president said it is a plot against Turkey, and he said that this is something – this case – something cooked the same trick up in United States as it happened in Turkey. There’s a court action case. Are you trying to cook a plot against Turkey? What’s your response?

MS NAUERT: We’ve heard that story, that old same song and dance from Turkey before, and I would have to give you the same answer as last time they accused us of trying to foment some sort of a coup. And I would say that is ridiculous. We are not engaged in that. Anything related to that particular case, I’d just have to refer you to the Department of Justice.

QUESTION: On that --

MS NAUERT: Yeah.

QUESTION: Heather, can I have a follow-up with you?

MS NAUERT: Go ahead.

QUESTION: Turkey is a NATO ally. At what point do these sort of statements and this war of words – I mean, you yourself said this was ridiculous. At what point does that lead the U.S. to sort of reassess its relationship and its alliance with Turkey and set out some sort of change in that relationship?

MS NAUERT: Well, as we’ve seen this year, there are some countries where we have – our relationship with these countries can ebb and flow sometimes. You have – like a marriage. You have a good day and sometimes you have a bad day, right?

QUESTION: Okay. (Laughter.)

MS NAUERT: And so somebody may say something that later they regret saying. They are a NATO member. They are a valued ally of the United States. We have had a strong relationship with Turkey. But really, just making comments about the United States trying to foment a coup is just – is simply ridiculous. And I think they recognize – I think they recognize that as well.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 12:38
by nutshell
Turks that talks about "backstabbing" :lmao: :lmao:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 14:43
by jakobs
I don't really see Turkey leaving Nato or being kicked out, but I think they should not receive any F-35's if they go through with the purchase of the S-400. Such a big step away need to have consequences.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 15:54
by geokav
jakobs wrote:I don't really see Turkey leaving Nato or being kicked out, but I think they should not receive any F-35's if they go through with the purchase of the S-400. Such a big step away need to have consequences.


According to the Turkish defense minister Nurettin Canikli, first systems of S-400 to be delivered in turkey in 2019. Todays article...
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/first- ... ter-122855

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 20:35
by mas
According to the Sultan the West is actively trying to undermine Islamic nations and peoples. Is this the voice of an ally or a dangerous fruit and nutcase ?

https://www.rt.com/news/410669-erdogan- ... t-muslims/

p.s. this guy stole the last election he won to give him more executive powers with ballot box stuffing of unregistered votes.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 21:00
by durahawk
mas wrote:According to the Sultan the West is actively trying to undermine Islamic nations and peoples. Is this the voice of an ally or a dangerous fruit and nutcase ?

https://www.rt.com/news/410669-erdogan- ... t-muslims/

p.s. this guy stole the last election he won to give him more executive powers with ballot box stuffing of unregistered votes.


Russian RT propaganda at its finest... They want to drive a wedge between Turkey and the EU/US/NATO and are not even trying to hide it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 21:10
by mas
The original (needs translating) does not sound any different.

President Erdogan said, "A dirty scenario is being implemented to destroy the unity, coexistence, wealth, all-important future of the Islamic world."

http://aa.com.tr/tr/gunun-basliklari/cu ... yor/973820

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Nov 2017, 08:52
by Corsair1963
Turkey is up-set over a number of things.....Yet, that doesn't mean she wants to leave NATO or cut her ties with the WEST.
:doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Nov 2017, 14:27
by madrat
Tuurkey wants to rebuild the Ottoman Empire and the piss ant cannot be trusted. Turkey is the epicenter of the Sunni reawakening of the Caliphate. The 'kingdom' fully supports that idea. So do some of our other so called allies across the Muslim world, from private sponsorship of the movement to direct nation-state involvement. The West is hiding its head in the sand pretending its not true. Unfortunately, the reality is the actors in this drama are very public about it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2017, 21:12
by mas
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/ ... 4?lo=ap_b1

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Trump told Erdogan during Friday’s phone call that the United States will cease supplying arms to the Syrian Kurdish fighters, the AP reports. Turkey considers the Syrian Kurdish fighters to be terrorists.

"Mr. Trump clearly stated that he had given clear instructions and that the YPG won't be given arms and that this nonsense should have ended a long time ago,” Cavusoglu said at a news conference.

Earlier in the day, Trump tweeted that he’d be speaking with Erdogan on Friday to discuss “bringing peace to the mess I inherited in the Middle East.”

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 06:44
by durahawk
Looks like relations with Erdogan’s Turkey is about to get a lot worse... now testimony of Turkey assisting Iran in circumventing UN sanctions by laundering its oil money.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/201 ... pdate.html

Of course Erdogan and his trolls will deny, but the credibility of Turkey as a trustworthy NATO ally is certainly in question if the allegations here are indeed true.

This Turkish F-35 deal is looking more rotten by the minute.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 09:27
by mtrman
Guys, is here a forum to discuss about the politics?

I am not an expert about neither the politics nor international relations. I don't know the details of this specific court, it's international validity, nor the involvement of FETO/Gulen in this scenario. If you think here is the place to talk about it, then go on, no problem for me.

But please let me to repeat that, I will try to reply here some ignorants or liers, who try to serve any false propaganda among some truth, who try to lie about pure marxist/communist/terrorist PKK/YPG, 40 years of global CIA project FETO/Gulen and rotten, perverted gangster group of Daesh/ISIS...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 10:25
by nathan77
mtrman wrote:Guys, is here a forum to discuss about the politics?


There are plenty of other web-sites for politics and propaganda.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 15:54
by durahawk
mtrman wrote:Guys, is here a forum to discuss about the politics?

I am not an expert about neither the politics nor international relations. I don't know the details of this specific court, it's international validity, nor the involvement of FETO/Gulen in this scenario. If you think here is the place to talk about it, then go on, no problem for me.

But please let me to repeat that, I will try to reply here some ignorants or liers, who try to serve any false propaganda among some truth, who try to lie about pure marxist/communist/terrorist PKK/YPG, 40 years of global CIA project FETO/Gulen and rotten, perverted gangster group of Daesh/ISIS...


Umm yes, actually. The title of this board is "Program and Politics: Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation". But go ahead and try to convince me that Billion dollar fighter aircraft deals don't involve politics.

I'll wait.

I posted the news article above because it is very relevant to US-Turkish relations... damage will be done to some extent whether it's true or not. Those relations are hanging in the balance already and have implications on defense sales.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 16:02
by mtrman
@Durahawk,

I agree with you. That's the reason that I wrote the second paragraph.

But there are some others who I tried to describe in the third paragraph...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 18:10
by XanderCrews
madrat wrote:Tuurkey wants to rebuild the Ottoman Empire



You'd think they would find a better Empire to strive for

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 18:22
by rheonomic
XanderCrews wrote:You'd think they would find a better Empire to strive for


Image

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 23:17
by mtrman
XanderCrews wrote:
madrat wrote:Tuurkey wants to rebuild the Ottoman Empire



You'd think they would find a better Empire to strive for


iimmm, Okay.

Iran demolishes Syria, almost destroys and severely suppress, kill and moves 80% majority. And Syria is not even neighbour to Iran. BUT NOBODY CALLS IRAN as rebuiilding Persian Empire.

Russia does the same thing. AND AGAIN NOBODY CALLS RUSSIA as rebuilding the Russian Empire.

US comes to middle east. Can't find any WMD. But shakes and mixes every inche in this region, tens of thousands of miles away. Directly and indirectly kills hundreds of thousands of people. BUT AGAIN NOBODY CALLS US as building any sh*t.

Turkey, which all those terrible invasions happen just next to it's borders, tries to defend herself. Hosts millions refugees from Iraq and Syria. All her enemies are directly supported by above. AND YOU CALL TURKEY as trying to rebuild the Empire ???

LOL

What is the reason for this claim then?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 01:00
by white_lightning35
REEEEEEE.... THE STUPID, IT BURNS!!!!!!!!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 11:01
by mtrman
white_lightning35 wrote:REEEEEEE.... THE STUPID, IT BURNS!!!!!!!!


Is this the logical explanation and answer your brain can produce?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2017, 12:03
by tincansailor
mtrman wrote:
white_lightning35 wrote:REEEEEEE.... THE STUPID, IT BURNS!!!!!!!!


Is this the logical explanation and answer your brain can produce?



Everyone is trying to advance their interests, and no ones hands are entirely clean. Iran has been the biggest winner in the recent chaos. America wanted a stable representative Iraq that wouldn't be threat to it's neighbors, and wouldn't be a pawn of Iran. It looked like a reasonable successful effort in 2010. Then Obama said "This is just too hard. We have to get out of here, no matter what happens. Besides my voters never wanted us in Iraq anyway."

At the same time Obama pulled the plug in Iraq the Arab Spring began, and Syria revolted. ISIS grew in the vacuum of Eastern Syria, with the help of Turkey, Iraq almost collapsed, and Russia & Iran intervened to save Assad, and America sat there and watched. Now everyone, except America is trying to pick up the pieces. Trump is satisfied to see a Russian-Turkish-Iranian Alliance become the dominate power in the Middle East. The Saudis are on the defense seeking allies, while America provides no leadership.

Everything is shifting in the sand, because it's now everyman for himself, and it will stay that way until the United States gets back in the game. That just ain't gunna happen has long as Trump is in the White House.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2017, 19:36
by mtrman
@tincan

I agree with many points. But with a few exceptions:

- US intervention in Iraq since the gulf war is not such innocent;
- How a Kurdish de facto state establised after Gulf War? Who benefitted it? (Israel, US)
- Who benefitted the almost independent southern shia Iraq? (of course Iran)
- Who benefitted the systematic destruction of sunni majority of central Iraq? (Iran)
- Who handed over the central Iraq Government to Shia gangs? (Obama) Who benefitted? (Iran)

- Turkey, only helped FSA, not Daesh. I tried to explain what Daesh (ISIS) is and who entirely benefitted and who is being harmed by it's existence in my previous posts. I had put some very strong claims and questions about Daesh, PKK/YPG and US trio. But there is not anybody yet to give any solid answer...

- I am also quite surprised to see your comparison between Trump and Obama since I guess you are from US. When I examine the almost all of Obama's actions, he directly or indirectly harmed sunni muslims and countries, while doing anything, again anything against Russia and Shia Iran... Isn't it? And Trump, while seems to be like a crazy guy, is bolder and more determined against Russia and Iran. At least he dared to send a few cruise missiles after one of the uses of chemical weapons in Syria...

As an outsider, I am watching gaping, how the Trump, a democratically selected President, is being attacked by so many organisations...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2017, 21:24
by nutshell
Section: "programs and politics"

Topic: "Turkey problem"

Expressing the opinion the Turkey should not receive the most advanced western platform and should not stay in Nato is very,very on topic.

Turkey and the west are too different and so they should go separate ways.

Moreover, not even turkish people want this alliance.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2017, 08:25
by tincansailor
mtrman wrote:@tincan

I agree with many points. But with a few exceptions:

- US intervention in Iraq since the gulf war is not such innocent;
- How a Kurdish de facto state establised after Gulf War? Who benefitted it? (Israel, US)
- Who benefitted the almost independent southern shia Iraq? (of course Iran)
- Who benefitted the systematic destruction of sunni majority of central Iraq? (Iran)
- Who handed over the central Iraq Government to Shia gangs? (Obama) Who benefitted? (Iran)

- Turkey, only helped FSA, not Daesh. I tried to explain what Daesh (ISIS) is and who entirely benefitted and who is being harmed by it's existence in my previous posts. I had put some very strong claims and questions about Daesh, PKK/YPG and US trio. But there is not anybody yet to give any solid answer...

- I am also quite surprised to see your comparison between Trump and Obama since I guess you are from US. When I examine the almost all of Obama's actions, he directly or indirectly harmed sunni muslims and countries, while doing anything, again anything against Russia and Shia Iran... Isn't it? And Trump, while seems to be like a crazy guy, is bolder and more determined against Russia and Iran. At least he dared to send a few cruise missiles after one of the uses of chemical weapons in Syria...

As an outsider, I am watching gaping, how the Trump, a democratically selected President, is being attacked by so many organisations...



I will try to answer some of your questions, or at least give you my opinion.

First when you say America wasn't innocent after the first Gulf War. I take it your a Turk. Turks have a fear of any Kurds having any sort of independent life, America isn't. The Kurds were enemies of Saddam, and worked with the U.S., and were friendly toward Israel. We didn't want Saddam to massacre them, so we protected them. The Kurds of Iraq have lived in a peaceful multi party democratic state, allied with America, that's fine to most of the world, not the Turks. The same is true for the Marsh Arabs. They were a threat to no one, and we didn't want Saddam to kill them.

We didn't destroy any Sunni majority in central Iraq. A unified Iraq is majority Shiite, If you have a national election a Shiite is gonna win. Bush used his influence on almost a daily basis to keep the government in Bagdad from hurting Sunni interests. Obama didn't want to make the effort. Iraq was not a puppet of Iran in 2010. The situation was being managed. Obama had a policy of accommodation at almost any price with Iran. His judgment sucked.

Turkey gave some support to the FSA. They allowed volunteer fighters, arms, and supplies to cross their territory to ISIS, and traded oil with them. Erdogan's family made money off it. Later ISIS attacked Turkey, and Turkey regretted what it did.

Yes I agree Trump is a crazy guy. He is against Iran, but not Russia. He has no coherent strategy. He cannot reconcile his anti Iran, and pro Russia positions, in the face of a Russian Iranian alliance. He fired 59 Tomahawks into Syria for emotional reasons. It upset him, and his daughter that Assad gassed children. The attack represented no change in policy. He has no objection to the Russian slaughtering children in Syria, as long as they don't use gas, and he doesn't see the pictures of the dead kids on his TV.

Trump likes the Turks because he makes money there, and the Saudis for the same reason, and because they hate Iran. He has no idea on a strategy on Sunni vs Shiite. That's why we almost stumbled into giving the ok for a war between the Saudis and Qatar. That would have been a disaster for or Middle East policy, and Iran would have been the big winner.

He's an emotional man, not a planner. All his ideas on foreign policy are unformed. He has prejudges, and stereotypes. His ideas change when he talks to someone new. That's why world leaders are able to manipulate him so easily. Before he was elected China was a currency manipulator that he would stop on his first day in office. Now the Chinese President is his best buddy, because if you like Trump, Trump likes you.

America is a free country, unlike Turkey. People and organizations are free to disagree with a president. Trump was duly elected, but by a minority popular vote. He is the most unpopular president in modern times. Every president in modern times has his popularity go up after their election. People who voted against them, or didn't even vote give him their support because they hope for the good of the country, and they want to give him a chance. Trump acted in the most obnoxious manner, offending most of those not on his side, starting immediately after his election, and just offended the majority of the country, and lowered his numbers to all-time lows.

He has offended his own party in congress, his own intelligence services, the very idea of free press, the courts, minorities, women, academia, and the general sense of decency of most people. About 60% of Americans think he is unfit for office, and many doubt his mental stability. In general he has treated the institutions of this country with contempt. He treats everyone who publicly disagrees with him with contempt, and childish name calling. He has confused, frightened, and insulted many of our allies. No other president has acted in this manor, or to this degree. All these behaviors can't help but provoke public attacks. For most Americans, even his supporters he is an embarrassment.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2017, 10:32
by laos
tincansailor wrote:Yes I agree Trump is a crazy guy. He is against Iran, but not Russia. He has no coherent strategy. He cannot reconcile his anti Iran, and pro Russia positions, in the face of a Russian Iranian alliance.
Trump likes the Turks because he makes money there, and the Saudis for the same reason, and because they hate Iran.


Let me give you some European perspective. Russia is a bigger threat to Central Europe than to US.
There was no more anti-Russian US president since Ronald Reagan. Trump presents the most coordinated policy of harming Russia in the economic and military fields since Ronald Reagan. You are probably a victim of stupidity in CNN.

Facts:
It was the government of President Trump who threatened sanctions against any European company that will engage in the construction of the Russian North Stream 2 gas pipeline that Russia, Germany and France want to build in order for Russia to be able to cut Central Europe for gas supply or use the thread in its foreign policy. He is ready to harm relations with Germany and France in order to hit Russia in the most sensitive point of their economy. It was for President Trump that the United States became very involved in the defense for Poland and the Baltic States against Russia. When there were Russian military exercises Zapad 2017 in fall of 2017, there were almost 2 ABCT + paratroopers, cavalry and many other units in Poland and Baltic States. For the first time since the end of cold war. Almost every day, American electronic intelligence planes fly along Kaliningrad and Belorussian border in Poland. It was President Trump who began building strategic warehouses in Poland for the needs of quickly deployed troops from the USA. Obama was a pussy for Russians and he even admitted it himself in famous recording when he spoke with Mr. Miedwiediew. Obama said that any his anty russian statement are only for election show and after the elections he will be very elastic for them.
In my opinion Trump pursues a policy based on US interests, not based on ideas like democracy, political correctness.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2017, 19:51
by tincansailor
Let me give you some European perspective. Russia is a bigger threat to Central Europe than to US.
There was no more anti-Russian US president since Ronald Reagan. Trump presents the most coordinated policy of harming Russia in the economic and military fields since Ronald Reagan. You are probably a victim of stupidity in CNN.

Facts:
It was the government of President Trump who threatened sanctions against any European company that will engage in the construction of the Russian North Stream 2 gas pipeline that Russia, Germany and France want to build in order for Russia to be able to cut Central Europe for gas supply or use the thread in its foreign policy. He is ready to harm relations with Germany and France in order to hit Russia in the most sensitive point of their economy. It was for President Trump that the United States became very involved in the defense for Poland and the Baltic States against Russia. When there were Russian military exercises Zapad 2017 in fall of 2017, there were almost 2 ABCT + paratroopers, cavalry and many other units in Poland and Baltic States. For the first time since the end of cold war. Almost every day, American electronic intelligence planes fly along Kaliningrad and Belorussian border in Poland. It was President Trump who began building strategic warehouses in Poland for the needs of quickly deployed troops from the USA. Obama was a pussy for Russians and he even admitted it himself in famous recording when he spoke with Mr. Miedwiediew. Obama said that any his anty russian statement are only for election show and after the elections he will be very elastic for them.
In my opinion Trump pursues a policy based on US interests, not based on ideas like democracy, political correctness.

[/quote]

Thank you for your prospective. Yes what you say is true. Trump has done all those things. The question is why? Many of the defensive measures you talk about were begun by Obama. After pulling all heavy units out of Europe we had to go back, when the Russia threat got hotter after the attack on Ukraine. The first deployments and stockpiling of arms to Eastern Europe were also begun under Obama. You have no idea how it hurts me to say anything nice about Obama, his policies were terrible.

The natural gas policy change was for domestic reasons. Trump wants to sell gas because it's in American interests to make money for the American energy sector, not to hurt Russia. Trump has failed to implement the sanctions that Congress imposed on Russia this August. He had a deadline of Oct 1. He is under intense scrutiny on any concessions to Russia. Those military activities your talking about are being implemented by the national security establishment, or has Trump, and the Russians would call it the "Deep State". If he had stopped them it would have caused an uproar in America.

Trump has publicly questioned if our NATO commitments to any member state are valid if their not paying their 2%. He has questioned if America would really go to war for Estonia? He said it in mocking tones, implying that little Estonia just isn't worth it. Many of his supporters repeated that suggestion, in the same mocking tones.

There was a fundamental change for many on the Right in American after the Cold War. The Cold War was a struggle with Communism, so the Right was all in in the ideological battle. When Russia became a White Nationalist State many on the Right lost interest in our commitment to a free Europe. They reverted to a pre WWII mindset of America First. Support for national interests, retreat from global commitments, and institutions. He said the people of Crimea wanted to part of Russia.

You mentioned not basing American policy on advancing democracy. Your correct. Support for democracy has all but disappeared from our agenda. The State Department has been dismantled. 1/3 of it's budget cut, it's top positions unfilled, ambassadors un-appointed, pro democracy programs defunded. When Trump visited your President this summer he stood with him and publicly mocked the press. This with a leader who has attempted to muzzle the press in Poland, and put it under state control.

No president before Trump would have done that. It is a betrayal of what America has stood for in the world, Freedom. You can't have freedom without free media. Our founders understood that, and enshrined it in our First Amendment to the Constitution. Advancing freedom in the world has been a pillar of American foreign policy since Wilson. I seem to recall he returned the favor from Kosciuszko and helped Poland be reborn.

Trump embraced the ideas of general Flynn, not our traditional policy. Flynn saw a world were our main threat was from the Muslim World, not Russia. Russia was seen as a powerful ally in that struggle against a mutual enemy. In that world view Russia is worth a hell of a lot more then our commitment to Poland. If you think Donald Trump has a warm place in his heart for Poland, it seems he has an even warmer place for Russia.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 10:53
by laos
Dear Tincansailor

Thank you for your opinions and interesting information that I was not aware off.
Poles are very thankful to president Wilson for his 13th point of his Fourteen Points and decision to support Poland in its struggle against Germany and Soviet Union in the end of I WW. In 1926 5,5 mln Poles sign a thank you letter to citizens of USA. The letter is in the library of US Congress.

I am trying to observe results without looking into the political statements that quit often do not bring results or that change frequently. Especially frequently in the present administration. Statements from the elections shouldn’t be taken seriously because in resent times they are only aimed on particular group of listeners. When you speak to farmers you say what farmers want to hear. When you speak to students you speak what students want to hear even though it might contradict what you spoke to farmers.
In the last days of Obama 8 year term and only after Warsaw NATO summit that force the commitment, Obama administration made decision that in the January 2017 the deployment of circa 1 ABCT commence. The traffic in the fall of 2017 of US unites that can be seen in Central Europe in much more then that. Off course is very likely that guys that stand behind that decision are Mattis, Scaparrotti and others. Still, the president have a right to veto it. From the public statements I guess gen. Breedlove ask Obama for it and it was vetoed by democratic administration.

Not building North Stream 2 does not directly lead to purchase of US gas. All the present demand can be met through present day pipes. Poland have a long term contract with Katar for natural gas along the natural gas contract with Russia. The sell of US gas on European market is win-win solution. It’s good for US companies because it’s open new market for them, it’s good for European countries because it brinks competition to the market and it’s good for NATO because if Russia is denied ability to sell it’s gas on European market it will not have money that can be use to modernize it armed forces. Still, it is happening now. Somehow it didn’t happened 8 years ago. Maybe someone was afraid to tread on Russian snake for last 8 years?

Trump commend that US may not defend countries that do not pay 2% for defense, even being ridiculous, was very good. Rich west European countries try to ride on poor European countries back for common defense. During cold war they spent a lot for common defense and now when they do not feel endangered by Russia, want that defense of NATO against Russia is provided by poor central European countries and USA. Poland GDP is circa 7,5 smaller than Germany GDP. It’s not right and I think it’s good the Trump said that. My perception of Trump is that he is a “player”. He say things to achieve his goals, not that he mean what he says.

But the topic is Turkey.
In view of thousands of pro European Turkish military and diplomatic personnel asking for political asylum in Europe, the perception is that the only military personnel left not in prison in Turkey, is pro Islamist and anti European. If Erdogan and it’s supporters in Turkey military, view Russia as a better partner to achieve Turkish government goals, how NATO may believe that turkey will not leak NATO secrets to Russia ?
The people of Turkey have a right to democratically choose the way majority want to live. If they want to live in caliphate, it’s their right to choose it. But NATO should consider whether Turkey, as we know it today, is Turkey that was allowed to join NATO many years ago. Would we accept Turkey to NATO now, a country with 100.000 political prisoners ?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 12:00
by madrat
Europe has gone out of its way to integrate Turkey. The experiment failed. Turkey has been the stepping stone to the fanatical religious zealot invasion of Europe for centuries and a few decades of making love was to forget that? Not hardly. Gee, I wonder if Turkey had any involvement in previous wars that engulfed the whole of Europe?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 14:19
by tincansailor
laos wrote:Dear Tincansailor

Thank you for your opinions and interesting information that I was not aware off.
Poles are very thankful to president Wilson for his 13th point of his Fourteen Points and decision to support Poland in its struggle against Germany and Soviet Union in the end of I WW. In 1926 5,5 mln Poles sign a thank you letter to citizens of USA. The letter is in the library of US Congress.

But the topic is Turkey.
In view of thousands of pro European Turkish military and diplomatic personnel asking for political asylum in Europe, the perception is that the only military personnel left not in prison in Turkey is pro Islamist and anti European. If Erdogan and it’s supporters in Turkey military view Russia as a better partner to achieve Turkish government goals, how NATO may believe that turkey will not leak NATO secrets to Russia ?
The people of Turkey have a right to democratically choose the way majority want to live. If they want to live in caliphate, it’s their right to chose it. But NATO should consider whether Turkey as we know it today is Turkey that was allowed to join NATO many years ago. Would we accept now to NATO a country with 100.000 political prisoners ?



Your very welcome laos. Your prospective as an Eastern European is very interesting, and appreciated. Your so right about politicians adjusting their pitch for the audience. In the case of Trump it's always hard to say what he really means. He has taken every position on almost all issues at one time or another. The only steady position he seems to have taken is a desire to cultivate friendship with Russia. There's not really a constituency in America to say "Ukraine, is that even a country? I thought it was part of Russia."

The issue is always trust, and confidence. Trump is a highly unstable person, steeped in corruption, and heavily dependent on Russian dirty money. He's record is of a dishonest businessman, who cheats everyone around him. He lies pathologically. He's driven by ego. It's difficult to have confidence in a man like that.

Yes Turkey is a major problem. It has become an authoritarian state, with a theocratic tinge. It has it's feet in several camps. It's a NATO member in military cooperation with Russia. It's a Sunni State with ties to the Saudi led Sunni Block that opposes Iran. At the same time it's cooperating with Iran to control the Kurds, and upholds a common front in Syria with both Iran, and Russia. It has aspirations of being a major regional power in both the Middle East, and the Mediterranean. They may sometimes look west, but their heart is in the east. This is about the last country that should have the F-35.

The problem may be that Trump has financial interests in Turkey. He has said that he can't do much with Erdogan, because he has two towers in Turkey. Trump is so compromised it's a danger to national security. Everything is kind of up in the air. America is essentially leaderless. As you say men like Mattis, Kelly, and McMasters are trying to hold everything together, not let a war breakout in Korea, or give the store away to Russia. It's hard to manage a 71 year old child.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 03:36
by rheonomic
laos wrote:Poles are very thankful to president Wilson for his 13th point of his Fourteen Points and decision to support Poland in its struggle against Germany and Soviet Union in the end of I WW. In 1926 5,5 mln Poles sign a thank you letter to citizens of USA. The letter is in the library of US Congress.


Sorry about 1939...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 06:10
by tincansailor
rheonomic wrote:
laos wrote:Poles are very thankful to president Wilson for his 13th point of his Fourteen Points and decision to support Poland in its struggle against Germany and Soviet Union in the end of I WW. In 1926 5,5 mln Poles sign a thank you letter to citizens of USA. The letter is in the library of US Congress.


Sorry about 1939...



What do you think America could do about it in 1939? Things should have been done before that. The real tragedy was 1945, and I don't know what we could have done then, short of WWIII.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:03
by mas
That great NATO ally is at it again getting all religiously fundamental again ...

https://www.rt.com/news/412892-turkey-j ... -reaction/

Turkey’s Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu has criticized the Muslim countries which failed to show a strong response to Washington’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, accusing them of being afraid of the US.

“There was a lot of strong reaction, reaction from the highest level. Some countries, however, have shown a very weak response. It seems that some countries are very timid, since the decision came from that country [the US],” the Minister told NTV broadcaster on Tuesday, adding that such countries were afraid of challenging the US and its “superpower mentality.”

“Some countries in the Islamic world are in a state of fear. Who or what are you afraid of? If we do not protect Jerusalem today, when will we protect it? If we cannot defend Jerusalem, one of Islam’s three holy cities, what can we defend?” Cavusoglu stated.

On Sunday, Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan harshly criticized Israel, branding it a “terrorist state” while describing the Palestinians as its “victims.” Erdogan vowed to fight Trump’s decision and not “abandon” Jerusalem at the hands of a state which “kills children.”


Is the US seriously going to sell F-35s to these nutters ?! Just say it's incompatible with S-400 and be done with it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:11
by weasel1962
Its not a Turkey problem. Its really a muslim one. Moderate Malaysia stands willing to send troops to Jerusalem? It doesnt take a genius to guess what the populations in more extreme muslim countries have in terms of reactions.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:23
by mas
Turkey used to be a moderate secular state, whatever happened to that ? You can't seriously give F-35s to a state that wants to have punch-ups with Israel and a few European states now.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:34
by weasel1962
One needs to distinguish between managing local populations which tend to be influenced by mass events vs the people in control. The messages that countries like Turkey and Malaysia issues could be for local consumption rather than real actions because if they don't address the local populations, the population will change the Government to someone who does listen.

That's generally the job of the state department to find out. Might be a bit more difficult for the US nowadays with the issues at state. There have been some spectacular screw ups. Not many here will now remember F-14s to Iran before 1979.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 02:32
by white_lightning35
One must consider the wider implications of Turkey getting kicked out of the West, so to speak. They have an Islamic dictator, and it appears many support him, but things can change. People can be led astray under powerful influences. I don't know if Turkey is too far gone, but hopefully that is not the case.

That being said, I support the move of the US embassy. It is an important statement, not an important action. The people who claim moral equivalency between Israel and Palestine are delusional. Israel is the good side in this conflict. They have screwed up a a lot in the past, but they are the who should be supported. The various Muslim groups really wanted to wipe Israel out, and they still do, but they failed. Maybe some choice countries should stand up, and show them where the real power lays, if they want destruction so bad.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 02:51
by weasel1962
The message from the diplomats I do speak to was:

If the Flynn story didn't happen, with Trump being a master of distraction, would Trump still have declared Jerusalem at this specific time, the only news story that could have turned all other stories into a side show?

We may never know....but in that perspective, very legitimate case to blame Mueller and the Dems for this mess.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 03:52
by madrat
Turkey has twisted Europeans against themselves with their treacherous secret treatises. How do the same people basically throw a continent into civil wars time and time again without being called out on it? It's only been two decades since they unsettled Yugoslavia.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 04:08
by weasel1962
madrat wrote:Turkey has twisted Europeans against themselves with their treacherous secret treatises. How do the same people basically throw a continent into civil wars time and time again without being called out on it? It's only been two decades since they unsettled Yugoslavia.


Oh so now we blame Turkey for balkanization. Strange, someone forgot to tell the State department that because I don't see any mention of Turkey anywhere....

https://history.state.gov/milestones/19 ... yugoslavia

Might as well blame Turkey for Jerusalem because if they had kept the Ottoman empire intact, none of this mess Israel is in today would have happened.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:17
by spazsinbad
Turkey wants to link F-35 jets to its Air Force network
09 Jan 2018 Burak Ege Bekdil

"ANKARA, Turkey —Turkey’s defense procurement agency has officially launched a competition to combine all information systems on the country’s planned F-35 Lightning II fifth-generation multirole fighter jets to the Turkish Air Forces’ system network. The Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM in its Turkish acronym) dubs the program F-35/Air Force Information System Integration Project.

Under the program, the successful contender will connect the information systems installed on the F-35 fighter aircraft with the Air Forces’ information systems network, otherwise known as HvBS. “The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Forces’ information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” SSM said.

SSM has asked bidders to suggest solutions by Feb. 28. SSM’s department for cybersecurity and electronic warfare systems will be in charge of the program.

Turkey is a partner in the U.S.-led, multinational Joint Strike Fighter program. Under the JSF program, Turkey has committed to procure a total of 116 aircraft. Turkey placed its first JSF order in 2014 under its low-rate initial production 10 program, and its second order in October 2016...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/01 ... e-network/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:32
by SpudmanWP
Northrop should just sell them Freedom550 terminals and then let them build the rest of the network.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... rminal.pdf

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:32
by steve2267
How does this work if Turkey is procuring the Russian S-400 SAM system?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:36
by SpudmanWP
steve2267 wrote:How does this work if Turkey is procuring the Russian S-400 SAM system?


Something has to act as a central data fusion engine, even if the F-35 is not part of it. That engine will gather data from all over the existing battlefield and add new systems like S-400/F-35. Each system will then in turn be able to talk to the engine to get an updated picture if the battlefield in it's area.

Since there is a central engine, the systems do not talk to each other, the S-400 will not be communicating with the F-35 and vice versa.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:38
by loke
weasel1962 wrote:We may never know....but in that perspective, very legitimate case to blame Mueller and the Dems for this mess.

What!?

Flynn and several others screw up and you blame Mueller and the Democrats? I hope you are joking...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:43
by loke
SpudmanWP wrote:
steve2267 wrote:How does this work if Turkey is procuring the Russian S-400 SAM system?


Something has to act as a central data fusion engine, even if the F-35 is not part of it. That engine will gather data from all over the existing battlefield and add new systems like S-400/F-35. Each system will then in turn be able to talk to the engine to get an updated picture if the battlefield in it's area.

Since there is a central engine, the systems do not talk to each other, the S-400 will not be communicating with the F-35 and vice versa.

NATO has already made it clear that the S-400 systems will not be integrated, and this is not limited to the F-35.

Perhaps this is why Turkey is building SAM systems with France and Italy?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKBN1D829I

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2018 ... nt-project

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:46
by SpudmanWP
I think that is talking about direct integration, like putting Link-16 on the S-400 system.

A fusion engine solves a lot of the problem because the kind of data that flows from the engine to the S-400 system can be regulated.

Btw, The quote I found said "could not be integrated" rather than "will not be". It's more of a technical issue rather than a political one.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:51
by steve2267
SpudmanWP wrote:Something has to act as a central data fusion engine, even if the F-35 is not part of it. That engine will gather data from all over the existing battlefield and add new systems like S-400/F-35. Each system will then in turn be able to talk to the engine to get an updated picture if the battlefield in it's area.

Since there is a central engine, the systems do not talk to each other, the S-400 will not be communicating with the F-35 and vice versa.


OK, but given how the US (NSA / CIA / Israeli Unit 8200) allegedly orchestrated the Stuxnet attack on the Iranian Natanz facility... do you really want to give the Russians such a direct attack vector from S-400 systems into the central nervous system of a Nato ally? Or does Nato just accept the assurances of Putin that he would never authorize such a thing?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:55
by SpudmanWP
Data fusion engine or not, the S-400 system will be plugged into the Turkish defense network at some level, that ship has sailed.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 02:07
by sunstersun
has turkey really committed to 116 F-35s?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 02:36
by spazsinbad
LM Fast Facts & Program of Record: https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey say 100 is the official number - however politicians can say a lot of things that are not set in stone eh. Just ask Canadafukians - how are YOU doin'? Eh.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 03:35
by sunstersun
guess they are already factoring in the 16 F-35B's :P
:doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 06:33
by tincansailor
Kill the F-35 sale to Turkey before the situation gets more out of control. This will damage NATO, and other allied countries national security on so many levels. Losing 116 F-35 sales is of no consequence, the market will only grow, and more then make up for the difference. Someone in charge has to start using some brains, and get a strategic sense. Can McMasters kill this deal on his way out of the White House?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 15:30
by mtrman
tincansailor wrote:Kill the F-35 sale to Turkey before the situation gets more out of control. This will damage NATO, and other allied countries national security on so many levels. Losing 116 F-35 sales is of no consequence, the market will only grow, and more then make up for the difference. Someone in charge has to start using some brains, and get a strategic sense. Can McMasters kill this deal on his way out of the White House?


@tincansailor;
You are going full speed on your very subjective and Turkish/Muslim hatred comments. I say this, because in this thread, you had already posted a lot of BS even about long past history with a lot of lies. I hope I was/will able to expose your those hatred lies.

It is unbelievable that you can mention such nonsense that Turkey will buy the F-35s and sell critical info to the Russians, etc. Are you a child? Yes, U.S. deep state is openly and blatantly betraying Turkey by openly and blatantly supporting a pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist group (YPG/PKK) which has been harming Turkey for more than 30 years. But even under this terrible circumstance, any of ranked officials or politicians in Turkey would do such a childish thing.

1- Turkey is still a strong NATO ally,
2- Nothing has changed in her foundations.

Purchasing a Russian missile defense system to meet her needs does not mean that above two bullets have changed. If Turkey buys F-35 then it means all the necessary sensitivity will be kept.

For the technical part, I think Spudman has nailed it;

SpudmanWP wrote:
steve2267 wrote:How does this work if Turkey is procuring the Russian S-400 SAM system?


Something has to act as a central data fusion engine, even if the F-35 is not part of it. That engine will gather data from all over the existing battlefield and add new systems like S-400/F-35. Each system will then in turn be able to talk to the engine to get an updated picture if the battlefield in it's area.

Since there is a central engine, the systems do not talk to each other, the S-400 will not be communicating with the F-35 and vice versa.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 06:52
by element1loop
tincansailor wrote:Kill the F-35 sale to Turkey before the situation gets more out of control. This will damage NATO, and other allied countries national security on so many levels. Losing 116 F-35 sales is of no consequence, ... <snipped>


I largely agree. The many equivocating and condemnatory comments plus propaganda coming directly from the mouth(s) of the leadership of Turkey over the past 3-years (since the immediate aftermath of Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris, actually, Jan 2015) renders the following two claims absurd.


1- Turkey is still a strong NATO ally,
2- Nothing has changed in her foundations.



"Nothing has changed in her foundations"?

Not even a national constitution, imprisonment of a lawful democratic opposition, and bridling of free speech, and a free press, ... etc. ... etc.?

This can not be taken seriously as a reply, nor a serious basis for arguing for status-quo to remain in place. There have been dozens of statements made by Turkey's leadership that seriously calls those claims into doubt. (the further assertion that "hate" is at the heart of this, also can not be taken seriously).

Turkey's allegiance to NATO state defence could not be more unclear. It's already become too high a risk to permit tech/info/software/data transfers to proceed further. Without profound changes in the leadership cohort, and its attitudes, and a formal recant of its positions on several topics, it's hard to foresee a future where it would be acceptable.

The stakes are too high, and this is a matter of Turkey's own generation, excessive reaction-ism and avid domestic public and international exacerbation.

Bottom-line is, this is a risk that does not have to be taken. The F-35 is not actually essential to Turkey's defence nor to deterrance of aggression against Turkey, within the NATO alliance. Turkey can be effectively defended via its own airforce, plus the armed support of its NATO allies (i.e. just like a dozen other NATO states, sans F-35s in their respective airforces).

Not delivering F-35s to Turkey may be the diplomatic shunt it needs to actually reform and rationalise the nonsense that's been going on there thus ending up with a reformed and reliable ally, much sooner.

If not so be it ... we'll just adjust .. and already are.

Turkey's clearly hedging internationally, on many levels, and that's a warning signal. And the alliance(s) should be hedging accordingly, as that's the proper and valid response, and should not be inhibited from operating from here.

Let Turkey take on the resulting risks and feel the costs of dodgy comments, claims, actions and attitudes ... not the rest of us.

"You can go your own way" - Fleetwood Mac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ul-cZyuYq4

Maybe they'll snap out of it in a decade ... maybe not ... if not it's far better to safeguard, where the risk is real, but non-essential to take, let alone necessary to accept.

They'll have to re 'prove' themselves, first, and we have to fundamentally review what's gained via continuing and why that's being done, besides inertia, if the risk:reward ratio is not worth the downside, if solidified. They need the Alliance(s) much more than it needs them. And if they access they don't need it, and it also doesn't need them, at least not in formal alliance, maybe ad-hoc coalitions (precisely as per Saudi levels of ad-hoc coalitions and transient combat integration, rather than a specific formal alliance membership), then why continue with the arrangement as it is expressed today?

Of course that has to be a rational decision based around the balance of projected battle, deterrence and diplomatic leverage and outcomes within the various forms of regional conflict, if a transient or rolling change is to be made to the status.

What we have now in my honest (mere) opinion, is not that rational and isn't transparent, seems adrift in the inertia of (a now changed) old past arrangements.

Do you just pull the band-aid off fast or draw it out slowly - as at present? And will drawing it out slowly produce a reformed genuine 'ally', that you actually trust, and who's interests are best served via close and unwavering loyal alliances within NATO? Or will pulling the band-aid off fast, leaving them exposed, at risk, and at high cost, inducing many domestic defence and other issues for them do that better, and faster (if at all ... in either case)?

The questions for me are; is Turkey's having the F-35 worth the risk to the Alliance(s), their effectiveness and security and justifying continuing with status-quo?

If conditions change, do not and should not the plans change too?

At what point would it rationally be not worth the risk to continue with the enduring status-quo plans?

And Is it likewise rational to be considering a change, given the above and else since about Jan 2015?

If not, why? What conditions would trigger that change?

The fact it's being discussed so openly makes clear there's a serious problem here, contrary to the, "Nothing has changed in her foundations" type view.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 07:35
by mtrman
What kind of ignorant are you???

You write all your comments and lies WITHOUT TOUCHING THE TRIGGERING ISSUE:

mtrman wrote:...
It is unbelievable that you can mention such nonsense that Turkey will buy the F-35s and sell critical info to the Russians, etc. Are you a child? Yes, U.S. deep state is openly and blatantly betraying Turkey by openly and blatantly supporting a pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist group (YPG/PKK) which has been harming Turkey for more than 30 years. But even under this terrible circumstance, any of ranked officials or politicians in Turkey would do such a childish thing.
...


What kind of shameless are you who can still blame Turkey without TALKING ABOUT ABOVE MOST TRAGIC FACT???

And I am not even talking about FETO group, which openly tried a military coup, costed 250 lives and caused billions of dollars of economic loss just two years ago.

Any friend who wonders what YPG/PKK and FETO are can do a fast google search, or look at my previous posts in this thread...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 08:21
by nutshell
The only tragic fact the west wasting time with Turkey in 2018. <-

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 19:24
by bring_it_on
tincansailor wrote:Kill the F-35 sale to Turkey before the situation gets more out of control. This will damage NATO, and other allied countries national security on so many levels. Losing 116 F-35 sales is of no consequence, the market will only grow, and more then make up for the difference. Someone in charge has to start using some brains, and get a strategic sense. Can McMasters kill this deal on his way out of the White House?


Agreed! If a NATO member nation wants to, at this time of heightened security posture by the alliance, buy military equipment from a major NATO adversary that too via using state finance then they damn well should not be treated as a NATO ally. Turkey can go ahead and buy whatever they want from wherever they want, but it is high time the US and the west stops to pretend that Turkey is behaving like a NATO member. Kick them out of the JSF, let them sue and try to recover whatever money has been invested and let them park that money with Russia and become its client state. High time Turkey itself reconsiders its presence in NATO..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 19:45
by neptune
[quote="mtrman]

U.S. deep state is openly and blatantly betraying Turkey by openly and blatantly supporting a pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist group (YPG/PKK) which has been harming Turkey for more than 30 years.
[/quote]

.....@mtrman, you seem interested in Turkey, perhaps you can enlighten me with up to date Turkish NATO support activities and even their participation in the F-35 program, please.
Thanks in advance!
Neptune
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 21:05
by durahawk
mtrman wrote:What kind of ignorant are you???

You write all your comments and lies WITHOUT TOUCHING THE TRIGGERING ISSUE:

mtrman wrote:...
It is unbelievable that you can mention such nonsense that Turkey will buy the F-35s and sell critical info to the Russians, etc. Are you a child? Yes, U.S. deep state is openly and blatantly betraying Turkey by openly and blatantly supporting a pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist group (YPG/PKK) which has been harming Turkey for more than 30 years. But even under this terrible circumstance, any of ranked officials or politicians in Turkey would do such a childish thing.
...


What kind of shameless are you who can still blame Turkey without TALKING ABOUT ABOVE MOST TRAGIC FACT???

And I am not even talking about FETO group, which openly tried a military coup, costed 250 lives and caused billions of dollars of economic loss just two years ago.

Any friend who wonders what YPG/PKK and FETO are can do a fast google search, or look at my previous posts in this thread...

Triggered, indeed...

Look, I'm not interested in getting into the YPG/PKK can of worms with you (again), but suffice it to say it's a moot point since your own government acknowledges the Trump Administration has stopped arming the YPG:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42118567

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 22:56
by mtrman
@durehawk
That's why I try to select my words carefully. If you notice, I used the phrase of "US deep state". Why? Let me to tell you please:

As you gave the link, those news had spread fast. After giving THOUSANDS of TRUCKS of MODERN WEAPONARY to pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist YPG/PYD/PKK, U.S. now seems to slow down the flow.

But in the last week, guess what happened, please. After completing the equipping phase, now an intense training phase begins by our ally (confirmed by CIA):
https://www.dailysabah.com/war-on-terro ... gular-army
http://www.arabnews.com/node/1223756/middle-east

I hope I could be able to tell you what kind of danger Turkey is facing and what we feel. Even the U.S. President can't stop this terrible tendency of directly harming and betraying Turkey...

@Neptune, I would be more than happy to give you any info as long as I have it (though I am not expert about politics nor history). But I think you can find much more info on google about the topics you have mentioned. Anyway, feel free to ask for anything, please, if you think I could help.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 23:44
by nutshell
Dude i'm not even american.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 00:03
by mtrman
Okay Dude, does it matter?
In this thread the topic is F-35 and Turkey.

Some people (including you) "try to show" or "think" the source of problems in recent US-Turkey relations as Turkey. And I am trying to proof that it is not...

Among this people, I think there might be two groups:
- Objective people who are the victims of mass media like Fox, CNN, RT, etc.
- Shameless, ignorant ones who try to show white as black, because of their Turkish and/or Muslim hate.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 01:28
by blindpilot
mtrman wrote:...
Some people (including you) "try to show" or "think" the source of problems in recent US-Turkey relations as Turkey. And I am trying to proof that it is not...
...


1. I have no opinion as to whether we should or should not try and cancel the F-35 sales.
2. I am not presuming any political wisdom on what has happened or should happen historically or politically.
3. While I am familiar with people (US and Turk) who live in Turkey as a part of the bases and NATO activity there, my comments are not related in any way to that feedback.

mtrman you are full of sh##. I don't know whether it's an agenda or benign ignorance, but you are full of it.

I have friends who have lived in Turkey for over a decade. Civilian lives on regular streets. Some (American) have had to leave and return to the States, because spirits and tensions there make it unsafe for their children. For those who remain, I can't even tell you who they are because they risk arrest, imprisonment, or worse just if they are identified as friendly with some Americans.

No this is not about American presidents or Kurds in Syria. This is the culture that brought the current leadership to power in Turkey. There is an emerging Islamic/Caliphate type spirit that is eating away at Atatürk's secular constitution based Turkey. And that ... not the Kurds, not the US, not secret coup plotters, that scares the sh** out of plain old Turks in the street, who I know.

Scream your little narrative all you want, but it will not change the reports from those afraid to even identify themselves in a forum like this. Turkey is not a safe place these days for many there to live on the streets, without considerable caution.

That's the problem! Fact! The S-400 purchase is a symptom, not the disease.

FWIW
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 03:47
by madrat
@mtrman-
Wow, hurting Turkey for 30 years. Let's look at Turkey and it's past 600 years. But woah it's been counter-cultured for 30 years, which consequently is pure rubbish. Turkey today is the conduit of the Muslim invasion of Europe, a role unchanged for over six centuries. And the democratically elected government of Turkey is blatantly preaching intolerance of European Christian culture. So wipe away your crocodile tears and buzz off.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 10:07
by loke
blindpilot wrote:

1. I have no opinion as to whether we should or should not try and cancel the F-35 sales.
2. I am not presuming any political wisdom on what has happened or should happen historically or politically.
3. While I am familiar with people (US and Turk) who live in Turkey as a part of the bases and NATO activity there, my comments are not related in any way to that feedback.

mtrman you are full of sh##. I don't know whether it's an agenda or benign ignorance, but you are full of it.

I have friends who have lived in Turkey for over a decade. Civilian lives on regular streets. Some (American) have had to leave and return to the States, because spirits and tensions there make it unsafe for their children. For those who remain, I can't even tell you who they are because they risk arrest, imprisonment, or worse just if they are identified as friendly with some Americans.

No this is not about American presidents or Kurds in Syria. This is the culture that brought the current leadership to power in Turkey. There is an emerging Islamic/Caliphate type spirit that is eating away at Atatürk's secular constitution based Turkey. And that ... not the Kurds, not the US, not secret coup plotters, that scares the sh** out of plain old Turks in the street, who I know.

Scream your little narrative all you want, but it will not change the reports from those afraid to even identify themselves in a forum like this. Turkey is not a safe place these days for many there to live on the streets, without considerable caution.

That's the problem! Fact! The S-400 purchase is a symptom, not the disease.

FWIW
BP

Excellent post!

I would like to add though that Turkey seems very polarized at the moment, there are many Turks who are still pro-west, and pro-NATO.

IF Turkey drops out of NATO and becomes a close ally with either Russia or China then I think that would be a very negative development for Europe, the US, but also for most people in Turkey, and the ME.

Until we reach a point of no return I suggest we should support the Turkish voices of reason as much as we can. They are struggling against dark forces in their country, and although they currently look weak I think there are quite still many of them. If they lose the fight against darkness then not just Turkey but also we in the West will suffer the consequenses.

I hope and pray it will never get to that point.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 03:36
by airforces_freak
Turkey is being misread by many in the Western world and this is the primary reason for the crisis of confidence between Turkey and Western Institutions.

First and foremost, Turkey is not BECOMING an Islamic Republic it ALWAYS was an Islamic Republic. An Islamic Republic which was Constitutionally Lacite/Secular but which also had Sunni Islam under Constitutional protection through the Diyanet/Presidency of Religious Affairs. The former is well known within Western circles but the later is always conveniently ignored.

Turkey's return to the Middle East is accordingly being misinterpreted by some within the West as a return to neo-Ottomanism. Yet modern Turkey has no imperial ambitions- imperial in the sense of regaining lost territories. Turkey is looking for spheres of influence and new markets. It no longer wants to rely on Western markets nor does it merely want to be blindly anchored to the West. As former PM Ahmet Davutoglu put it Turkey is seeking to create pax-Ottomana within former Ottoman territories. Just like the British have created the Commonwealth of Nations. A trading bloc that would increase trade amongst former Ottoman possessions.

The AKP is a Conservative Islamic Party ELECTED to office on numerous occasions by the Turkish people. It is akin to the Christian Democrats in Germany. It's primary objective during election campaigning was to improve Turkey's economy which it has already done and open up Turkey to the world through Turkey-centric foreign policy. Not be limited to Western markets. The Turkish people voted for this and the AKP is merely delivering.

The AKP's voter base was also fed up of being bullied around by the staunch leftists which banned the headscarf and curtailed the fundamental human rights of conservative Turks.

Now for those who think Turkey will become the new Iran. This is furthest from the truth and a narrative put forward by political opponents of the AKP to instil fear and mistrust.

Turkey is merely displaying a Turkey centric foreign policy. Its primary objective is Turkish interests and good relations with both East and West. US Policies in the Middle East has meant that Russia now rules this part of the world. Accordingly, Turkey is obliged to have some level of normality with Russia.

Now when we come to the JSF program I would like to draw your attention to a few points:

Turkey's S-400 acquisition is merely an excuse to exert pressure on Turkey and keep it anchored within the Western sphere. The US does not want Turkey to display a Turkey-centric foreign policy which has good relations with both East and West. Both NATO members Greece and Bulgaria have S-300's in their inventories. Although, they were not intentionally acquired (in Greece's case) and acquired prior to NATO membership in Bulgaria's case, 2 NATO members already operate Russia ABM systems.
Turkey is not a mere purchaser of the F-35 but a JSF consortium Member State whose industry has been heavily involved in all aspects of the program.
Turkey has already stated that it has many alternatives to the F-35 and that it will not acquire it at all costs: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/economy/tu ... ts-2818837
Turkey has also stated unequivocally that Turkey may remove US radars at Kurecik if its F-35s are not delivered on schedule. The US has an AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012 at Malatya- Kürecik, Turkey which keeps Iran and the region under a watchful eye: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turke ... le-2808663

Thus, the F-35 acquisition by Turkey will also determine its future in NATO and the Western sphere. Should the F-35 not be sold to Turkey this would only crystallise Turkey's pivot to the East.

Through Foreign Military Sales the US has SOME level of control over the arms it sells. If Turkey is pushed into Russia's lap for 5th Generation aircraft it will only mean that the US has ZERO control over Turkish air assets and a more independent Turkey. Policy makers in Washington are well aware of this and hence why the threat to not sell Turkey the F-35 has been rebuffed by the State Department and White House.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 04:22
by madrat
Considering the Sino influences over Turkey, the pivot East is inevitably going to happen regardless of the F-35 ultimatum. Best cut losses up front.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 01:46
by nutshell
It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 01:58
by optimist
It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..oh and those people from sh*tholes who aren't white. Why are we even talking to germany and japan, let along letting them have guns, don't you remember ww2 [/sarc]

it's not rocket science why the turks has gone russian sams, US dictates how a weapon of theirs can be used. There is a neighbour with western tech and US support, that doesn't play nice with others. If it were new zealand, I'd want aussies to have russian sams too.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 02:43
by steve2267
optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 02:45
by neptune
nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.


....you may wish to add Israel, with their operating F-35s!
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 02:49
by neptune
steve2267 wrote:
optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.


....all of us "others" are a distant #2 behind the Shias in Iran!
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 02:58
by element1loop
airforces_freak wrote: ... US Policies in the Middle East has meant that Russia now rules this part of the world. ...


Much overstated.

The Russians are providing support to their ally in Damascus to protect the Russian interests within a fractionated part of one ME state, and as per usual, selling missiles and air platforms to ME states.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 03:00
by steve2267
neptune wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.


....all of us "others" are a distant #2 behind the Shias in Iran!
:)


I'm having trouble keeping it all straight anymore. I know the Shias and the Sunnis are seemingly always at each others throats, but which one, or is it both, that can't play nice with the other children in the sandbox?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 04:48
by airforces_freak
nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.


Not quite.

No matter how much one wants to reduce the petro-wars to religion no one needs eyes to see that religion is the pretext under which one nation steals the natural resources of another nation.

Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.

Someone has been trying desperately to provoke a Christian vs Muslim war for quite sometime now and I am having trouble figuring out who it will benefit...the Jews, the Buddhists or some other group. Still cannot figure it out.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 04:57
by airforces_freak
A good read
Turkey Wants to Link Its F-35 Computer Brains to Networks That Will Include Russian Systems
Turkish and American authorities are both worried about military secrets leaking out, but for very different reasons.
BY JOSEPH TREVITHICKJANUARY 15, 2018
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... an-systems

The Turkish military says it wants to make sure there is a secure link between its future F-35 Joint Strike Fighters and the Turkish Air Force’s main computer networks that will prevent the inadvertent sharing of classified information. This comes as many of the countries involved in the international stealth fighter program increasingly worry about the security of the jet’s main data transfer setup and as the United States expresses concern about Turkey’s growing ties with Russia.

Earlier in January 2018, Turkey’s Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, the country’s top military procurement arm, also known by its Turkish acronym SSM, launched a competition to buy the necessary equipment and software to connect the F-35s to the rest of the Air Force’s systems, Defense News reported. SSM’s cybersecurity and electronic warfare division is in charge of the project and is asking for anyone interested in submitting a bid to do so by the end of February 2018.

“The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Forces’ information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” SSM said, according to Defense News. “The political idea is to earn as much indigenous software space as possible while at the same time remaining within the [JSF] program,” an anonymous source also told the outlet.


Though it’s not entirely clear from the report, the goal of the Turkish effort seems to be gain more control over what information goes into and comes out of its F-35s, improving its ability to share information across the country's air force. This is particularly important given the Joint Strike Fighter's sensors' ability to vacuum up important information, especially about electronic emitters such as enemy radars.

Being able to rapidly move that data around a variety of networks would give pilots in aircraft with less capable radars and other sensors a significantly improved view of the battlefield during missions, as well as allowing commanders to better plan future missions. Finding ways to link the F-35, especially using its stealthy Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL), to fourth generation aircraft has been a major goal for the U.S. military services flying the jets, as well. Joint Strike Fighters have coordinated with older planes using the non-stealthy Link-16 data link during past exercises.

There is also a concern that without a filter, the Joint Strike Fighter’s cloud-based computer brain, the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), might automatically send sensitive data to the United States or other partners in the program, or to the manufacturer Lockheed Martin. ALIS’s main job is to collect data on the jets’ figurative health, but monitoring information from various sensors about parts that are in need of routine maintenance or may be likely to fail for some other reason. Ground crews download these details from the aircraft via a secure laptop and then upload them into a larger system that, at least in theory, is supposed to help streamline the maintenance process and identify points of concern in need of improvement or upgrades in the future.

On top of that, though, it’s how Lockheed Martin plans to release software patches for the jets. Most importantly, the system acts as the load point for mission data packages, containing route plans, locations of potential threats and hazards, and other similar information.

Many of the countries involved in the Joint Strike Fighter Program are increasingly fearful that ALIS might be scraping information from those packages during uploading or downloading of other data and that it might end up on the system’s main servers or just be worryingly vulnerable to cyber attacks. Italy and Norway now have a shared software laboratory at the U.S. Air Force’s Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, which is working on a secure filter to prevent any unauthorized transfers. Australia has also expressed interest in its own such firewall.

There is also the possibility the United States could use ALIS in the future as an unprecedented export control. It could allow Lockheed Martin, at the direction of the U.S. government, to disconnect a country’s F-35s from vital updates and potentially disrupting the jets’ operational capabilities remotely, if necessary. American authorities might also be able to use the network as a vector for a cyber attack to more completely disable to the aircraft.

For Turkey, as with the other countries pursuing national-level solutions to these data sharing and sovereignty issues, the main problem is that they will all still have to use ALIS in the day-to-day operation of their F-35s. So far, only Israel has managed secure the rights from Lockheed Martin to install its own software on the jets that would allow it to operate independently of the company’s cloud-based network.

Some Joint Strike Fighter program members may be able to negotiate their own country-specific arrangements with Lockheed Martin with the U.S. government’s blessing. It seems very unlikely that either the Maryland-headquartered defense contractor or U.S. authorities would be willing to extend the same privileges to Turkey, at least in the near term.

Relations between Washington and Ankara have steadily cooled since 2014 in light of the U.S. military’s increasing support for Kurdish groups in Iraq and Syria in the fight against ISIS. Turkish authorities see the Kurdish People's Protection Units in Syria, also known by the acronym YPG, in particular as indistinct from the Kurdish Workers’ Party, or PKK, in Turkey.

Both the United States and Turkey have designated the PKK as a terrorist group. However, the U.S. government vehemently disagrees that the YPG and PKK are inseparably linked and that the former has plans to seize Turkish territory. The YPG form the core of the Syrian Democratic Forces, the main U.S.-backed force in Syria, which has been instrumental in routing ISIS.

Ties between the two countries only deteriorated more in 2016, when Air Force officers attempted to overthrow Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in a coup. Erdoğan and his political allies promptly launched a massive crackdown, arresting tens of thousands of people, and accused the United States of sheltering the man they allege to have been behind the putsch, Fethullah Gülen. It's worth noting that the U.S. military still keeps a stockpile of approximately 50 B61 nuclear gravity bombs at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, which has increasingly become a separate security issue.

But the series of events also led to warming ties between Turkey and Russia, though. In July 2017, Erdoğan confirmed his country would buy the Russian S-400 air defense system, prompting statements of concern both from the United States and the country’s other NATO allies.

With regards to the F-35, there is a distinct concern that Kremlin may be able to exploit the deal, which will reportedly involve some level of technical cooperation with Turkey’s defense industry, to see how its anti-aircraft system fares against the fifth generation fighter. Russia could then use that information to refine and expand its existing anti-stealth research and development work. There have been similar concerns about plans to add the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia to the Joint Strike Fighter program.

“We’re going to have to start looking at, if they are going to go through with this [S-400 purchase], how we can be interoperable in the future,” Heidi Grant, Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for International Affairs, told Defense News in November 2017. “But right now, I can tell you our policies do not allow us to be interoperable with that system.”

“It’s a significant concern, not only to the United States, because we need to protect this high end technology, fifth-generation technology … [but for] all of our partners and allies that have already purchased the F-35,” she added. Turkish officials have repeatedly said they have no plans to back out of the deal, unlike in 2015 when they cancelled a similar plan to buy Chinese FD-2000 air defense systems in the face of pressure from the United States and NATO.

There had already been some calls to block sales of the F-35 to Turkey in 2017 following a incident outside the Turkish embassy in Washington, in which Erdoğan’s personal security detail attacked Kurdish activists peacefully protesting, triggering a brawl and censure from city and U.S. federal authorities.

In July 2017, David Cicilline, a Democrat Representative from Rhode Island and a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, proposed an amendment in the Fiscal Year 2018 defense budget that would have halted the sale of Joint Strike Fighters to Turkey. This did not make it into the final version of the law.

Limiting Turkey’s access to the F-35 program may not be an easy prospect in the future, either, as a result of efforts to incentivize partners to join in the first place. Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is responsible for the construction of portions of the jet’s center fuselage and could service the aircraft’s Pratt and Whitney F135 engine for other NATO operators in the future. In total, 10 different Turkish firms have contributed in some fashion to the project.

Any restrictions of Turkish involvement in the program could therefore negatively affect both the construction of jets now and the ability for NATO allies to sustain their own F-35 fleets. At the same time, Turkey has been pursuing an indigenous fifth generation fighter jet, the TFX, in cooperation with BAE Systems in the United Kingdom.


As such, the Turkish government could conceivably threaten to back out of the Joint Strike Fighter program entirely, and focus on the TFX instead. Of course, this would significantly delay when Turkey’s Air Force would get its first fifth generation fighter jets, given the protracted and expensive development cycles for such aircraft. At present, TAI doesn’t expect to have a flyable prototype until at least 2023 and the quality and capabilities of that aircraft are still very much up in the air. It is doubtful that it will feature as advanced a capability set as the F-35 offers.

It would also squander significant existing Turkish investment in the program, including plans to buy at least 100 F-35As. There are also reports that the country’s military might be interested in purchasing a number of short and vertical take-off and landing capable B models. Lockheed Martin says Turkish defense contractors could expect to see a windfall of up to $12 billion from supporting the Joint Strike Fighter project, as well.

Though 2017, the U.S. military’s main F-35 Joint Program Office said it had no immediate plans to change its cooperation with Turkey, though they did say there were reviewing the issues at play. With the S-400 deal moving ahead and Turkey now pushing for greater control over how the jets will interact with its other information networks, there may be a greater impetus to study the implications of Turkish policies on the rest of the Joint Strike Fighter program.

How the situation plays out could be an important test case for how the F-35 project manages increasing concerns from partner nations about the heavily intertwined nature of both its computer networks and its physical industrial base.

Contact the author: jtrevithickpr@gmail.com

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:16
by white_lightning35
airforces_freak wrote:
Not quite.

No matter how much one wants to reduce the petro-wars to religion no one needs eyes to see that religion is the pretext under which one nation steals the natural resources of another nation.

Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.

Someone has been trying desperately to provoke a Christian vs Muslim war for quite sometime now and I am having trouble figuring out who it will benefit...the Jews, the Buddhists or some other group. Still cannot figure it out.


Hmm yes. Religion, which has been around far longer than the concept of a nation-state, is just used to steal things from other countries. I see.

"When has an Islamic republic invaded the US"?

When has an Islamic republic been capable of invading the U.S.? Hint: never. I'm sure an ant would eat me if it could, but they can't, so I point them out to my dog and he eats them as a protein supplement. Such is life.

I am so annoyed by those who think that those without the capability to influence things are somehow innocent and without fault. Is suriname truly full of amazingly wonderful people, or are they just not able to do something very important and bad?

"Some one has been desperately trying to provoke a Muslim vs Christian war"

Read the Quran and you might understand why there might be conflicts.

I personally don't believe Jews should be killed on sight, so I guess that makes me an enemy of Muhammad.

Perhaps we need to invent a better ant spray.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:31
by optimist
There are some nutter Muslims. The US has more trouble with nutter Christians at home. But remind me again who had a 500 year party in the ME? Some need to read the bible more, it's pretty vicious, Some may even think of the spanish for an example.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:41
by SpudmanWP
"party"?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:51
by optimist
Would "adventure and debauchery by fanatic Christians" be more appropriate?
http://www.ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c9.htm

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:56
by SpudmanWP
Ah, the Crusades... revenge is a bitch ain't it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 06:02
by optimist
so the muslims and christians had a squabble for a while about Jerusalem and now the jews have claimed it. revenge is a bitch ain't it

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 06:12
by SpudmanWP
Yup, Jews had it first :)

btw, the "Crusades" involved the entire med, France, Spain, Italy, etc. It was not just about the ME.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 07:18
by madrat
Let's not squabble over four crusades by Christians or 700+ Muslim invasions of Europe.

The thread is about behavior by Turkey's civil leaders today.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 07:34
by steve2267
airforces_freak wrote:
Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.



9/11/2001

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 07:37
by steve2267
airforces_freak wrote:A good read
Turkey Wants to Link Its F-35 Computer Brains to Networks That Will Include Russian Systems
Turkish and American authorities are both worried about military secrets leaking out, but for very different reasons.
BY JOSEPH TREVITHICKJANUARY 15, 2018
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... an-systems

... <snip> ...



Saw the article the other day. Rogoway has done so much damage to the brand of www.thedrive.com that I have really no idea if that article is any good or not. And frankly, because of him, I do not really care to spend the time to read it and decide for myself if the article is any good.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 11:05
by neptune
airforces_freak wrote:....(Israel) Wants to Link Its F-35 Computer Brains to Networks ...The ..(Israel) military says it wants to make sure there is a secure link between its future F-35 Joint Strike Fighters and the ..(Israel) Air Force’s main computer networks that will prevent the inadvertent sharing of classified information. ..

Earlier in January 2018, ..(Israel)... top military procurement arm, .., launched a competition to buy the necessary equipment and software to connect the F-35s to the rest of the Air Force’s systems, Defense News reported. ...(Israel) cybersecurity and electronic warfare division is in charge of the project and is asking for anyone interested in submitting a bid to do so by the end of February 2018.

“The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Forces’ information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” ..(Israel) said, according to Defense News. “The political idea is to earn as much indigenous software space as possible while at the same time remaining within the [JSF] program,” an anonymous source also told the outlet.....


"NOT FAKE NEWS"; simply making a point, that this issue has been dealt with by Israel (the possessor of operating F-35s) with much complaint by others and "APPEARS" to be resolved (by Washington's endorsment).

The genie is out of the bottle; the concept of the F-35 is now much discussed in public and the "magic juice" of how it is done is only the "current" way the technology is applied. Others will use their imagination to develop similar technology, now that it is shown "as possible".

However, Turkey (NATO) is not the only country that is interested in the purchase of the F-35; India also is pursuing?? the 5th Gen genie with Russia and with less success, it will eventually come calling on Washington to allow them to "offset" China with a similar program. Also, with the same issues; less these religious overtones.
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 11:12
by spazsinbad
'neptune' can you please explain: "...IMHO (I'm still not comfortable with the "one way" information exchange with Israel) this matter is settled by the fact of the Israeli program." What is this 'one way'? Can you describe it more please? Thanks.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 12:03
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:'neptune' can you please explain: "...IMHO (I'm still not comfortable with the "one way" information exchange with Israel) this matter is settled by the fact of the Israeli program." What is this 'one way'? Can you describe it more please? Thanks.

....after reading my response for you, I didn't like the conjecture and concede this point and will edit that "out" of the reply. Thanks for the question!
:(

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 12:29
by airforces_freak
white_lightning35 wrote:
airforces_freak wrote:
Not quite.

No matter how much one wants to reduce the petro-wars to religion no one needs eyes to see that religion is the pretext under which one nation steals the natural resources of another nation.

Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.

Someone has been trying desperately to provoke a Christian vs Muslim war for quite sometime now and I am having trouble figuring out who it will benefit...the Jews, the Buddhists or some other group. Still cannot figure it out.


Hmm yes. Religion, which has been around far longer than the concept of a nation-state, is just used to steal things from other countries. I see.

"When has an Islamic republic invaded the US"?

When has an Islamic republic been capable of invading the U.S.? Hint: never. I'm sure an ant would eat me if it could, but they can't, so I point them out to my dog and he eats them as a protein supplement. Such is life.

I am so annoyed by those who think that those without the capability to influence things are somehow innocent and without fault. Is suriname truly full of amazingly wonderful people, or are they just not able to do something very important and bad?

"Some one has been desperately trying to provoke a Muslim vs Christian war"

Read the Quran and you might understand why there might be conflicts.

I personally don't believe Jews should be killed on sight, so I guess that makes me an enemy of Muhammad.

Perhaps we need to invent a better ant spray.


I have read the Koran and the Talmud and the Old Testament. It is however evident that you have not since you attributed to the Koran a verse which apparently mandates the killing of all Jews on sight. Perhaps you can cite the exact verse which you are alluding to. Because the last I checked Jews were "people of the book".

The Qur’an highlights the community of faith between followers of monotheistic religions (Jews, Christians and Muslims), and pays tribute to religious and moral virtues of communities that have received earlier revelations.

"There are indeed among the people of the Book some who believe in God and in what has been bestowed from on high upon you and in what has been bestowed upon them, humbling themselves before God. They do not barter away God’s revelations for a trifling price"- Aal-`Imran 3: 199. See other verses commending People of the Book in Al-Ma’idah 5: 82, 182.

Freedom of belief is also a basic Islamic principle in Islam: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith. The right way is henceforth distinct from error"- Al-Baqarah 2: 256

What SOME Muslims do and what Islam is are two different things.

There are also some horrific verses in the Talmud and Bible. Do we use a broad brush to label them?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 15:05
by botsing
Are you seriously quoting religious scripture in an attempt to defend the current affairs in Turkey?

Talk about shooting yourself in your foot, or actually in this case blowing your whole leg off.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 15:48
by white_lightning35
airforces_freak wrote:
I have read the Koran and the Talmud and the Old Testament. It is however evident that you have not since you attributed to the Koran a verse which apparently mandates the killing of all Jews on sight. Perhaps you can cite the exact verse which you are alluding to. Because the last I checked Jews were "people of the book".

The Qur’an highlights the community of faith between followers of monotheistic religions (Jews, Christians and Muslims), and pays tribute to religious and moral virtues of communities that have received earlier revelations.

"There are indeed among the people of the Book some who believe in God and in what has been bestowed from on high upon you and in what has been bestowed upon them, humbling themselves before God. They do not barter away God’s revelations for a trifling price"- Aal-`Imran 3: 199. See other verses commending People of the Book in Al-Ma’idah 5: 82, 182.

Freedom of belief is also a basic Islamic principle in Islam: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith. The right way is henceforth distinct from error"- Al-Baqarah 2: 256

What SOME Muslims do and what Islam is are two different things.

There are also some horrific verses in the Talmud and Bible. Do we use a broad brush to label them?


From Wikipedia:

The following hadith which forms a part of these Sahih Muslim hadiths has been quoted many times, and it became a part of the charter of Hamas.[79]


The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).Sahih Muslim, 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981, Sahih Muslim, 41:6982, Sahih Muslim, 41:6983, Sahih Muslim, 41:6984, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 22:41
by USMilFan
There is also the possibility the United States could use ALIS in the future as an unprecedented export control. It could allow Lockheed Martin, at the direction of the U.S. government, to disconnect a country’s F-35s from vital updates and potentially disrupting the jets’ operational capabilities remotely, if necessary. American authorities might also be able to use the network as a vector for a cyber attack to more completely disable to the aircraft.

This part of the article is utter nonsense. The US is accused of much insanity and evil on an hourly basis around the world, but this one takes the cake. The US does not commit acts of war against countries interested in operating American-made weapons systems. I know this may be hard to believe in some places, but deliberately sabotaging our friends is contrary and self-defeating to our self-interests as well as those of our allies and partner countries. The US is not interested committing national suicide as the author of this article imagines. Such transparent anti-American propaganda is tiresome and just silly.

Let's take a break from such utter nonsense.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 22:44
by spazsinbad
Agree. There are several articles (probably in ALIS) in this forum that explain this stuff, but negative propaganda is fun.
:shock: :devil: WHERE IS THE F-35 REMOTE 'KILL SWITCH'!? :doh: :drool:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 09:24
by nutshell
I dont understand airforce dude.

I mean, why does it have to be a religion issue?
Why are you always trying to be the victim?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 10:23
by optimist
nutshell wrote:I dont understand airforce dude.

I mean, why does it have to be a religion issue?
Why are you always trying to be the victim?

Lets not bait and switch, it's unbecoming. Just remember what post started this off.

nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.
The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.
Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.
Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 11:51
by laos
There is a quote from famous XX century figure comrade Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov better known by the alias Lenin that describe the the sell of F-35 do Turkey -
„The capitalists will sell us the rope on which we will hang them”.

:D

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 19:37
by nutshell
optimist wrote:
nutshell wrote:I dont understand airforce dude.

I mean, why does it have to be a religion issue?
Why are you always trying to be the victim?

Lets not bait and switch, it's unbecoming. Just remember what post started this off.

nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.
The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.
Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.
Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.


Simple concept: West + Turkey = bad couple.

You dont f* play the victim card here. Not after tons of reply of various threats and retaliations against the west.

Easy, isnt it?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:29
by element1loop
Maybe I should have emphasised more the need for any changes to be exclusively rationally examined, per the military alliance implications and ramifications?

Perhaps too hopey.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jan 2018, 23:27
by spazsinbad
4 Turkish firms bid for F-35, Air Force network-linking contract
23 Jan 2018 Burak Ege Bekdil

"ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s defense procurement agency has named four local bidders for a critical contract that aims to combine all information systems on the country’s planned F-35 Lightning II jets to the Turkish Air Force’s system network....

...Under the program, the successful contender will connect the information systems installed on the F-35 fighter aircraft with the Air Force’s information systems network, otherwise known as HvBS.

“The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Force’s information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” SSM said.

SSM’s department for cybersecurity and electronic warfare systems will be in charge of the program....

...Industry sources said the program to build critical links between the F-35 aircraft and Turkey’s combined Air Force command network probably won’t cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but it was tagged as “strategic” by the procurement authority.

But some foreign observers remain cautious. “Naturally there will be limits to the Turkish work as part of this program,” according to a London-based aerospace specialist. “The Turks may not be able to go as far as they wish to.”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... -contract/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 05:18
by spazsinbad
US diplomat threatens Turkey's F-35 role in S-400 spat
19 Apr 2018 Stephen Trimble

"A senior US diplomat has threatened to use the Lockheed Martin F-35 programme as a retaliatory tool against Turkey for acquiring a sophisticated air defence system from Russia. Assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs Wess Mitchell’s remarks during 18 April hearing in Congress escalated a simmering confrontation with a NATO ally and combat partner against ISIS, which agreed to acquire the Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf system even as it plans to take delivery of its first F-35A later this year.

Breaking from a string of ambiguous statements by the Trump Administration, Mitchell’s testimony made specific threats of potential retaliation if the Turkish government follows through on the acquisition of the S-400 system. “Ankara claims to have agreed to purchase the Russian S-400 missile system, which could potentially lead to sanctions under section 231 of [countering America’s adversaries through sanctions act] and adversely impact Turkey’s participation in the F-35 programme,” Mitchell says.

The S-400 is Russia's most advanced surface-to-air missile system on the export market. It's advertised with an "anti-stealth range" up to 81nm (150km).

In the past, US officials have complained that Turkey's S-400 systems would not be interoperable with NATO's networks. But the acquisition also raised concerns that Turkey's possession of the S-400 and the F-35 could be used to compromise the latter, with Russia and its allies gaining invaluable intelligence.

It was not clear specifically how Turkey’s role in the F-35 programme could be affected, but the Trump Administration has several tools at its disposal...." [not described]

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... sp-447859/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 13:56
by mixelflick
We would be crazy to sell the F-35 to the Turks. Sorry, but that's just how it is...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 08:07
by old_rn
Why are not the Russians worrying about the west (via a NATO member, Turkey) gaining intel on their much vaunted S400?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 08:33
by spazsinbad
I give in. What goes on in Russia - in English - that we can know about? The PAK-FA is crap? DUH. Russia STRONK is all.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 17:04
by sferrin
old_rn wrote:Why are not the Russians worrying about the west (via a NATO member, Turkey) gaining intel on their much vaunted S400?



Who knows? Who cares?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 21:52
by durahawk
old_rn wrote:Why are not the Russians worrying about the west (via a NATO member, Turkey) gaining intel on their much vaunted S400?


I think it's a safe assumption that the export version of the SA-21 is not identical in its full capabilities to its Russian domestic counterpart.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 04:22
by popcorn
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1HX3NO

Three U.S. senators move to block F-35 transfers to Turkey

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Three U.S. senators introduced a measure on Thursday aimed at blocking the transfer of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to Turkey, a NATO ally and one of nine partner nations involved in producing the high-tech, radar-evading aircraft.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 04:35
by spazsinbad
US senators introduce bill to block F-35 delivery to Turkey
26 Apr 2018 Garrett Reim

"A bi-partisan group of US senators introduced a bill on 26 April to prevent the transfer of the Lockheed Martin F-35A to Turkey. The bill would also block Turkey’s role as a maintenance depot for the aircraft, according to a press release issued by the senators....

...Turkey, a NATO ally and partner in fighting ISIS, has ordered a total of 100 conventional take-off and landing F-35As. The first batch of 14 are already purchased, with deliveries scheduled to begin later this year. A total of 30 F-35As are scheduled for delivery to the Turkish Air Force by the end of 2022....

...The move by the senators comes one week after a senior US diplomat threatened to use the Lockheed Martin F-35 programme as a retaliatory tool against Turkey for acquiring a sophisticated air defence system from Russia, the Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf system. The S-400 is Russia's most advanced surface-to-air missile system on the export market. It's advertised with an "anti-stealth range" up to 81nm (150km)....

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-448084/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 10:01
by spazsinbad
One door doesn't close and another door does open - who'da thunk?
Mattis Seeks Waivers for US Allies, Partners to Buy Russian Arms
27 Apr 2018 Richard Sisk

"Defense Secretary Jim Mattis is arguing for waivers to let U.S. allies and partners avoid sanctions for buying Russian arms. The move could include giving Turkey and India a pass on the purchase of advanced S-400 anti-air defense systems.

At a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing Thursday, Mattis said "national security exceptions" must be made to the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) in the long-term interests of the U.S. "There are nations in the world who are trying to turn away from formerly Russian-sourced weapons and systems," he said.

Those same nations, he said, currently need to keep the Moscow supply line open to replenish their legacy systems. "We only need to look at India, Vietnam and some others to recognize that eventually we're going to penalize ourselves" in the future by strict adherence to CAATSA, Mattis said. He pointed to Indonesia, which has become increasingly vital to the Trump administration's overall South Asia strategy....

...Mattis called on Congress to include "national security exceptions" in the National Defense Authorization Act for fiscal 2019 but acknowledged that Russia's sale of the S-400 systems is "causing a lot of concern." Russian President Vladimir Putin was in Ankara earlier this month to firm up the proposed $3 billion sale of the S-400 systems, billed as "F-35 killers," to NATO ally Turkey.

The U.S. and NATO allies have warned Turkey that the S-400s are not compatible with other NATO systems, but Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has pressed on with the deal. Last week, State Department Assistant Secretary Wess Mitchell told the House Foreign Affairs Committee that Turkey is risking sanctions under CAATSA, adding that it could also be cut off from buying the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter...."

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... -arms.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2018, 14:52
by markithere
Onenewsnow posted an article that shares information which should concern US interests.

https://onenewsnow.com/persecution/2018 ... -criminals

Article starts with:

After calling the European Union (EU) to prosecute critics of Islam as criminals, Turkey is no longer considered a moderate Muslim nation that embraces Western influences, but one that now wants Western nations to enforce its harsh Islamic law against “infidels.”

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 12:25
by loke
The legislation would also ask the Defense Department to provide Congress with a report on the relationship between the United States and Turkey, and would block the sale of major defense equipment until the report was complete.

Although Turkey is a NATO ally, relations between Ankara and Washington recently have deteriorated. Turkey supported the U.S. fight against Islamic State, but has become increasingly worried about U.S. backing for Kurdish fighters in Syria.

The NDAA is several steps from becoming law. The final version of the legislation will be a compromise reached later this year by House and Senate negotiators between separate versions of the bill approved in the two chambers.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1I52KW

What are the odds that "sale of major defense equipment" to Turkey will be blocked until the report is completed? Does this have to be turned into law first?

In any case Turkey has already responded:

Ankara: Turkey will retaliate if the US enacts a proposed law that would halt weapons sales to the country, foreign minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Sunday.

Lawmakers in the US House of Representatives released details on Friday of a $717 billion annual defence policy bill, including a measure to temporarily halt weapons sales to Turkey.

In an interview with broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said the measures in the bill were wrong, illogical and not fitting between the NATO allies.

“If the US imposes sanctions on us or takes such a step, Turkey will absolutely retaliate,” Cavusoglu said. “What needs to be done is the US needs to let go of this.”


https://thewire.in/world/turkey-says-it ... apon-sales

This does not look very promising to me.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 13:17
by loke
The 62-page indictment of U.S. pastor Andrew Brunson, who faces a possible life sentence in Turkey on charges of membership of banned terrorist organisations, such as the Gülen movement, accused of plotting the July 2016 coup - cites a video of a Middle Eastern dish which is popular among members of the movement, citizen times website reports.

‘’Maklube "is a dish cooked by members of the organization at meetings and religious gatherings at the FETÖ/PDY armed terrorist organization's cell houses," the article quotes the indictment as saying, while highlighting that a video on the rice and meat dish sent by Brunson’s daughter to him is actual evidence in Brunson’s indictment.

The same indictment also says all Christian churches in the U.S. are directed by an organization called CAMA, which includes the FBI and CIA as members, that Mormons make up nearly 40 percent of members of the United States' armed forces serving overseas, and that information someone gathered about gas stations in Turkey shows Brunson was involved in an effort to overthrow the Turkish government, according to the article.


https://ahvalnews.com/andrew-brunson/ev ... o-analysis

We live in interesting times.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 15:36
by white_lightning35
How long is it until erdogan gets the s#it bombed out of him? Goodness I hate the realities of geopolitics that will stop that from happening. Maybe he should receive the bin Laden drink: two shots and a splash of water.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 15:47
by steve2267
What happens if this whole geopolitical shotgun wedding goes sideways? Would the US be able to quickly, quietly, and safley remove all B61's and any other nukes? What if Erdogan says, no, you may NOT remove those from Turkey? Can they be destroyed in place? Is the B61 design robust enough that if they were to fall into enema (or unfriendly) hands, it could not be reverse engineered, or circumvented?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 21:40
by wrightwing
steve2267 wrote:What happens if this whole geopolitical shotgun wedding goes sideways? Would the US be able to quickly, quietly, and safley remove all B61's and any other nukes? What if Erdogan says, no, you may NOT remove those from Turkey? Can they be destroyed in place? Is the B61 design robust enough that if they were to fall into enema (or unfriendly) hands, it could not be reverse engineered, or circumvented?

I'm guessing they could be quietly loaded aboard aircraft, and flown somewhere else.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 17:27
by spazsinbad
Turkish F-35 sale could hit congressional roadblock
07 May 2018 Jeff Martin

VIDEO: https://dq0mmww6n9gqf.cloudfront.net/mc ... 0_1200.mp4 (6.25Mb)

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/video/defen ... roadblock/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 05:25
by spazsinbad
More 'tit for tat' yadda yadda yadda.... Shape Up or Ship Out from both sides. Who knew? Whats new? NADA - no change.
Turkey threatens US over bill seeking to halt weapons sales
09 May 2018 Burak Ege Bekdil

"...If passed as part of the National Defense Authorization Act, the U.S. Defense Department would have to provide Congress with a report on the relationship between the NATO allies. Sales of major defense equipment would be blocked until the report is completed.

One immediate casualty could be the U.S.-led, multinational Joint Strike Fighter program in which Turkey is a partner. Turkey has committed to acquire a batch of more than 100 F-35 fighter aircraft....

...“If passed the U.S. bill has the potential to altogether alter Turkey’s Western paradigm,” according to a presidential aide in Ankara. A senior procurement official said the bill would “kill all U.S.-Turkish procurement business in the several years ahead.” “The U.S. is no longer a sole-source supplier of the kind of equipment we buy from foreign suppliers. [buy crap then - wot me worry?] It won’t have the leverage our American friends hope it will,” the official said.

A senior Turkish diplomat said the bill would push Turkey further into the Russian orbit. “There is a lot we could jointly do with the Russians … from engine technologies to satellites,” he said...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... ons-sales/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 05:35
by spazsinbad
This all reminds me of the song 'I'm on a Mexican Radio' (what did he say?) "No comprende - its a riddle..." Wall of Voodoo.
Turkey to receive first F-35 fighter from US next month
09 May 2018 Uğur Ergan

"The United States will deliver the first F-35 joint strike fighter to Turkey on June 21 as part of a longstanding partnership between the two allies, despite attempts by the U.S. Congress to block the procurement of such weaponry to the Turkish government. According to defense industry authorities, the delivery of the first of the 30 F-35 fighters will be made on June 21 in a ceremony that will be held in the U.S....

...Pilots from the TSK [tsk tsk?] will receive intense training at the headquarters of the main producer of the F-35, Lockheed Martin, before the fighters will be transported to Turkey later this year, sources have said. Sources have also informed that arrangements are underway on military bases in Turkey where the F-35s will be deployed....

...Turkey has strongly criticized the U.S. Congress’ move and vowed to retaliate. “If they take such a step at a moment when we are trying to mend our bilateral ties, they will definitely get a response from Turkey. There is no longer the old Turkey,” Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu told private broadcaster CNN Türk in an interview on May 6."

Source: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... nth-131537


Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 06:45
by marauder2048
Hard to keep track of the various markups but:

F-35 sales to Turkey would not be through FMS. And the other
bill that I read only blocks the use of US funds to facilitate delivery
but very little in the way of US funds would be used anyway.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 22:54
by talkitron
The first Turkish F-35A is flying. See photos at the link below:

http://airwingspotter.com/1st-turkish-air-force-f-35a/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 02:19
by spazsinbad
First F-35 jet delivery to Turkey slated for June 21
11 May 2018 Sarp Ozer & Ahmet Sertan Usul

"Turkey will take its first delivery of U.S.-made F-35 warplanes on June 21, according to defense sources.

Two fighter pilots from the Turkish Air Forces are getting special training in the U.S., where the delivery of the first plane to Turkey is planned to be done with a ceremony, said the sources, who asked not to be named due to restrictions on speaking to the media. After the training is completed, and another warplane is delivered, the F-35 jets are planned to be brought to Turkey in September of 2019. The trained pilots will fly the two F-35s from the U.S., accompanied by a refueling plane.

In 2014 Turkey placed an order for the first two F-35 jets for the projected fleet of 100 F-35A aircraft and plans to deploy the aircraft by 2019. The F-35 jets are planned to be deployed at the 7th Main Jet Base Command in Turkey’s eastern Malatya province, where preparations have already begun to replace F-4 aircraft...."

Source: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/todays-headlin ... 21/1142561

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 15:43
by white_lightning35
Not to sound dramatic, but I don't think a lot of people realize how and this is and how bad it could be. I don't see why they would not save the Russians the trouble and just give them an f-35 directly.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 16:36
by sferrin
white_lightning35 wrote:Not to sound dramatic, but I don't think a lot of people realize how and this is and how bad it could be. I don't see why they would not save the Russians the trouble and just give them an f-35 directly.


No kidding. We already saw this play out with Iran and the F-14. Just how stupid are we? :doh: :doh: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 17:59
by durahawk
sferrin wrote:No kidding. We already saw this play out with Iran and the F-14. Just how stupid are we? :doh: :doh: :bang: :bang: :bang:


The Shah actually liked the United States when they received their first Tomcat. They same could not be said of Erdoğan.

This is even worse.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 03:37
by jakobs
tcu wrote:Dear Gentlemen, can't really believe those posts. How you easily become victims of CNN, Fox, etc...

Turkey is one of the first partners of the program, a long long years member of NATO, was ally of west against Soviet Communism, and many more.

Even though Turkey has been indirectly attacked and betrayed by US and European politicians for the last few years (via YPG/PKK and FETO), it has nothing to do with some childish scenarios such as we will handle F-35 to China, etc... I can't find a word to describe those Turkish/Muslim haters who can argue such nonsense as a black propaganda...

If you wonder the source of the problems in the recent years between Turkey and US, it is another topic, I can tell you much more than you really want. For example, you can start by asking your politicians why US had been rejecting selling Turkey the Patriot ADS a few years ago. But now, they are coming Ankara to offer Patriot just to cancel S400 deal. How funny that many people are talking about Turkey's defensive measures, but not talking what are causing them...

As I said, the problems and their sources is a different story. But you know very well that the above scenarios are just childish and baseless...


Never go full retard!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 04:08
by Corsair1963
Turkey keeps escalating the rhetoric by the day. Yet, her logic in doing so escapes me??? :?



Hell, this could be easily defused by Turkey with a few choice words. Yet, instead she keep fueling the flames! :bang:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 09:27
by Corsair1963
tcu wrote:
jakobs wrote:
tcu wrote:Dear Gentlemen, can't really believe those posts. How you easily become victims of CNN, Fox, etc...

Turkey is one of the first partners of the program, a long long years member of NATO, was ally of west against Soviet Communism, and many more.

Even though Turkey has been indirectly attacked and betrayed by US and European politicians for the last few years (via YPG/PKK and FETO), it has nothing to do with some childish scenarios such as we will handle F-35 to China, etc... I can't find a word to describe those Turkish/Muslim haters who can argue such nonsense as a black propaganda...

If you wonder the source of the problems in the recent years between Turkey and US, it is another topic, I can tell you much more than you really want. For example, you can start by asking your politicians why US had been rejecting selling Turkey the Patriot ADS a few years ago. But now, they are coming Ankara to offer Patriot just to cancel S400 deal. How funny that many people are talking about Turkey's defensive measures, but not talking what are causing them...

As I said, the problems and their sources is a different story. But you know very well that the above scenarios are just childish and baseless...


Never go full retard!


Man, is this a logical answer to this post? Don't talk about YPG/PKK, don't talk about FETO, don't talk about refused sell of Patriot, but, talk about blaming Turkey for high tensions and Turkey's defensive measures. Good good...

No problem about Turkey, or delivery of her F-35s. The problem is about US politicians' attitude against her ally...



Sorry, NATO was formed to counter Russia (i.e. former Soviet Union) not buy Weapons from them. In addition to add insult to injury Russia has been acting very badly over the last few years. Like invading Georgia and Ukraine and stirring up trouble in Syria! Honestly, I was very supportive of Turkey getting the F-35. As I was sure this was just one big misunderstanding. Yet, like many in the "West" I am getting very very tired of the threats!

Turkey would be making a colossal mistake! If, she forces a break with Europe and the US. Yet, the reverse can't be said....So, go ahead she can shoot herself in the foot. Yet, she shouldn't complain when she has to have her foot amputated!

Her whole Military is built on Western Weapons Systems. What is she going to turn to Russia for help when this all blows up in her face???

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 13:14
by loke
Turkey indirectly contributed to the growth of IS and other extremist organizations for a long time -- focusing only on the Kurds and getting rid of Assad.

Big mistake.

The US had no alternative but working with YPG to handle IS. Turkey carry part of the blame for that.

Did the US really stop sales of Patriot in the past? I strongly doubt that! AFAIK it was Turkey who decided not to buy Patriot and very provocatively decided for S-400 instead.

Turkey currently hold US citizens as hostages. This is unprecedented and a very hostile action against a key NATO ally.

They previously held also Germans as hostages but I believe those have all been released now? What about France, are there currently any French hostages in Turkish prisons?

Turkey is also ignoring basic rights like freedom of expression, democratic rights, etc. Important values that NATO members are expected to share.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 15:29
by botsing
tcu is probably a new account of banned user mtrmen. This user was spamming the same polarized messages over and over again, just like tcu is doing now:

mtrmen wrote:Here we go again...

1) It is so childish to claim such nonsense theories. And yes, your puppet FETO false soldiers would do such treachery when ordered just to harm Turkey. But sorry, they are kicked out from the army and can't help you...

2) Perhaps the U.S. should be booted out of the F-35 program for openly supporting and arming FULL MARXIST/COMMUNIST/TERRORIST group of PKK/YPG which has been harming Turkey for 30 years. But, sorry. I forgot that U.S. is the super power and so strong that your some Muslim/Turkish hatred generals and politicians CAN DO ANY STUPID THING they want, but can not be criticised...


The moderators have been informed.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 10:51
by marsavian
By the creation and employment of this terrible terror gang, Marxist YPG/PKK, Shia Iran, Assad, Russia and US benefitted... Turkey and sunni muslims suffered


No, Turkey benefited in its long term trans-national persecution of Kurds. If stood by on the border smiling and stationary as Isis butchered northern Kurdish towns. It also bought Isis oil and let Isis foreign fighters enter through Turkey. The recent military incursion into north Syria under the false pretext of anti-terrorism was just an excuse for a land grab for its ethnic Syrian Turkmen to displace Kurds. Notice it has not handed the land back to the government of Syria. It is now a Turkish protectorate in all but name.

Turkey should be removed from NATO and treated as a hostile Islamic nationalist state like Iran because it has no place in modern Europe under militant Sultan Erdogan. The days of a modern looking secular Turkish state as created by Attaturk are over replaced by an aggressive Ottoman Sultanate part 2.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 12:56
by madrat
It's almost like bigotry has been adopted to deal with Erdogan's opponents...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2018, 15:33
by spazsinbad
Should U.S. Block F-35 Deliveries To Turkey?
15 May 2018 Lara Seligman & Jen DiMascio

"In 2019, [at least one F-35A is being handed over SOON] Turkey is scheduled to receive two major new pieces of military equipment: the U.S.-made F-35 stealthy fifth-generation fighter and the Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile system....

...One bipartisan group of senators is moving to block the transfer of Lockheed Martin F-35s to Turkey, even as Lockheed prepares to deliver the first Turkish aircraft to Luke AFB, Arizona. [Stairway to Heaven: "sometimes words have two meanings"] And a contingent of House lawmakers is considering a provision in a fiscal 2019 defense policy bill that would stop short of restricting F-35 deliveries but could impede shipments of other U.S. exports there....

...The U.S. has long tried to sell Turkey air and missile defense systems such as Raytheon’s Patriot. But Ankara ultimately opted for the Almaz Central Design Bureau’s S-400 in a $2.5 billion deal. The systems were originally scheduled for delivery in 2020, but that date has since been accelerated....

...Because the sale is not by the U.S. government but by the international F-35 consortium, Congress does not have the legal authority to block it. Ankara is a development partner on the program and plans to purchase 100 F-35As in total, the first of which will soon be delivered to Luke AFB. Given the limitations, lawmakers appear to have realized the best approach to preventing Ankara from receiving the Joint Strike Fighter is to eliminate funds for the planned transfer of the jets from Luke to Turkey in 2019...." [then there is a lot of laDeDah so go read it yourselves - I'm too tired at 0030]

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/should- ... ies-turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2018, 14:19
by mixelflick
I would never sell the F-35 to a country that had a coup attempt in its recent past.

The whole situation just feels like its 1979's Iran again. The Tomcats secrets were stolen, and I don't care what anyone says - they showed up in the form of the Mig-31's AA-9 Amos...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 01:40
by nutshell
So we've a muslim country ,in its way to became a caliphate of some sort, that is blatantly anti-west (they have their reasons, yet idc and idgaf) in line to join the EU, stay in NATO and get the best fighter out there.

I wonder, what could possibly go wrong, right?

The day Erdogan backstabs the west by attacking the Greece (our us, who knows), i hope all the JSF companies CEOs will be there, fighting in the ground, repelling the attacks. Together with all their family members.

Hope Karma do its bitchy things and strike those greedy SoBs hard in their wallets.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 02:00
by steve2267
nutshell wrote:Hope Karma do its bitchy things and strike those greedy SoBs hard in their wallets.


I think that is a little harsh. Yeah, they want to sell planes and make $$. That is the way of capitalism, and what made the West so strong economically (as well as in other areas). But they have a business obligation -- contracts have been signed. IMO, the responsibility goes as much, if not more so, to the F-35 JPO, than to the commercial companies producing the F-35.

Ten, twenty years ago... who would foresee Turkey swing so hard towards Islamic fundamentalism and everything that entails?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 04:15
by madrat
Turkey has always been swung that way. Hello Ottoman Empire.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 06:40
by Corsair1963
Honestly, this deal with Turkey is blown well out of proportion.....Mark my words it will all settle down and she will get the F-35. (and everything else)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 07:53
by loke
I think the West should draw some very red lines for Turkey and make it clear that those must not be crossed.

Many people would argue red lines have been crossed already.

Keeping US, German, Greek citizens as hostages. check.
Supporting islamists in Syria, Egypt, and terrorists on the Gaza strip and elsewhere. check.
Order S-400 from Russia. Check.
Suppress freedom of speech. Check.
Limit democracy in Turkey. Check.
Discriminate Christianity and other non-muslim religions in Turkey. Check.

Erdogan and his cronies are hypocrites: They blame the US and Israel for "terrorism" and "supporting terrorists" whereas, at least in my opinion, what they are doing themselves is much worse. They blame the West for discriminating against muslims, whereas in reality muslims are pretty well protected in both the US and EU. At the same time this is what happens to Christians in Turkey:

In its 2017 report on human rights violations, Turkey's Association of Protestant Churches details Turkey's systematic discrimination against its Protestant community, listing the hate crimes as well as verbal and physical attacks against Protestant Christians.

The Turkish government doesn't even recognize the Protestant community as a "legal entity," denying them the right to freely establish and maintain places of worship. Since their meeting places are not officially recognized as places of worship, they are often targeted and closed.

On September 5, for example, the Izmir Cigli Church was closed and sealed in response to negative press coverage concerning the church. Its sign, deemed offensive because it contained the word "church," was removed.

Turkey's Protestant community also faces discrimination in the training of their religious leaders. Current law prohibits the opening of religious training schools. Hence, the Protestant community relies on support of foreign church leaders.
However, the report notes that several foreign religious workers and church members were deported, denied entry into Turkey, refused residence permits, or denied entry visas last year.

Another serious problem is workplace discrimination. "Some Protestant community members who work as public officials in Izmir, Istanbul and Diyarbakir were told that because they were Christians and missionaries, their work contracts would not be renewed."

On 18 April 2007, three Christian employees of the Zirve Bible Publishing House in Malatya were tortured and murdered by five Muslim assailants – a horrific crime which still haunts many Christians in Turkey. Some local media outlets had targeted Christians before the massacre. And it appears that many outlets in Turkey are still complicit in attacks against churches and churchgoers.

There has been a spike in negative local press coverage against churches and their members, similar to the news reports preceding the 2007 Zirve Publishing House massacre. "These new publications have created serious concern and apprehension among the churches," according to the report.

Ironically, "Turkey used to be called Anatolia or Asia Minor and was a Christian civilization," writes Dr. Bill Warner. "Today Turkey is over 95% Muslim. North Africa, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon used to be Christian. Afghanistan was Buddhist; Pakistan and Malaysia used to be Hindu. Today they are more than 95% Muslim. Islam does not reach a balance point with the native civilization; it dominates and annihilates the indigenous culture over time."


https://www.christianpost.com/voice/tur ... unity.html

Turkish hostage-taking has become one of the most pressing problems in relations between Ankara and its Western allies. It is something that everyone knows is happening, but political leaders and diplomats are reluctant to call it by its name.
The most recent case concerns German-Turkish journalist Deniz Yucel, who was arrested in Turkey in February 2017 on accusations of propaganda for a terrorist organization. Yucel, a correspondent for Die Welt known for his journalism about Turkey’s crackdown, had written articles based on the hacked emails of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s son-in-law, Energy Minister Berat Albayrak.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/02/tur ... ge-taking/

Perhaps the F-35 deal and other deals should be put on hold until it becomes more clear exactly where Turkey is heading, and what their intentions are. From where I am standing it does not look very good right now.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2018, 06:11
by blindpilot
Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, this deal with Turkey is blown well out of proportion.....Mark my words it will all settle down and she will get the F-35. (and everything else)


Well. Watching the Turkish economy and balloon about to burst...
Assuming he can get reelected, he may have to cut back how many F-35s he buys anyway. And about all those ships ...

https://www.independentrecorder.com/tur ... 05207.html

At 500M lira(T) that's a 25% increase in price, over just the last year or so, and it's getting worse. Down to 80 aircraft instead of 100 and falling fast ... Wonder what the inflation is doing for the voter on the street buying bread ... He should have moved the election up sooner ... not going to dodge the bullet ...

FWIW,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2018, 15:17
by marsavian
Secretary of State Pompeo said at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee "IT IS STILL VERY MUCH A LIVE ISSUE, THE TURKS CAPACITY TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE F-35."

01:17:10
https://www.c-span.org/video/?445766-1/ ... start=4626

The Turks seem to think he can't unilaterally stop deliveries now.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2018 ... -to-turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2018, 22:07
by archeman
blindpilot wrote:
Well. Watching the Turkish economy and balloon about to burst...
Assuming he can get reelected, he may have to cut back how many F-35s he buys anyway. And about all those ships ...

https://www.independentrecorder.com/tur ... 05207.html

At 500M lira(T) that's a 25% increase in price, over just the last year or so, and it's getting worse. Down to 80 aircraft instead of 100 and falling fast ... Wonder what the inflation is doing for the voter on the street buying bread ... He should have moved the election up sooner ... not going to dodge the bullet ...

FWIW,
BP


Well.... 80 is less than 100, but ---> They only need ONE to get to the secret sauce.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2018, 22:49
by bigjku
marsavian wrote:Secretary of State Pompeo said at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee "IT IS STILL VERY MUCH A LIVE ISSUE, THE TURKS CAPACITY TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE F-35."

01:17:10
https://www.c-span.org/video/?445766-1/ ... start=4626

The Turks seem to think he can't unilaterally stop deliveries now.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2018 ... -to-turkey


The US is paying for the vast majority of it. Whatever the contract says the US can effectively do whatever the hell it wants with the plane. Turkey can complain or sue I suppose.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2018, 23:23
by marsavian
LMT will follow whatever the US government decide. It's a big step to deny Turkey the F-35 but unfortunately their very rude insulting grandstanding has left them in this precarious situation. Only the fact that they are a member of NATO saved them from a severe military response when they shot down that Russian Su-24 Fencer. Even then the severe economic response from Russia cured them of their bad manners towards them. Now they are carrying on this rudeness with all their NATO allies just because we don't quite agree with their military postures to their Kurdish neighbors in other countries and Greece and Cyprus nevermind this new form of autocratic Islamic leadership they now have that squashes political dissent.They look more like Iran every day unfortunately.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2018, 05:49
by spazsinbad
Turkey threatens retaliation if new bill stops F-35 sale [BEST READ ALL at SOURCE]
25 May 2018 Joe Gould

"WASHINGTON — The Turkish government has vowed reprisals if the U.S. Congress passes a defense policy bill that prevents the sale of Lockheed Martin-made F-35 fighter jets to Ankara. The Senate Armed Services Committee on Thursday passed its version of the $716 billion National Defense Authorization Act with language that directs the Pentagon to submit a plan to Congress to remove the NATO ally from participation in the F-35 program.

“According to agreement, everybody has a mission and we expect everyone to fulfill these missions,” said Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman Hami Aksoy, Ahval reports. “Such steps are breach of the spirit of our alliance with the U.S. As our minister stated, if such steps are taken, we will have no other choice but to respond accordingly.”

Turkish Foreign Affairs Minister Mevlüt Cavuşoğlu said earlier this month the country would retaliate, after the House version of the NDAA was unveiled. That bill contains a broader prohibition on any foreign military sales to Turkey until the Pentagon reports to Congress on the impact of U.S.-Turkey tensions....

...“There is tremendous hesitancy [about] transferring sensitive F-35 planes and technology to a nation who has purchased a Russian air defense system designed to shoot these very planes down,” Shaheen [Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, D-N.H.] said in a statement. “This amendment is meant to give the Departments of State and Defense the guidance and congressional support they need to ensure that this does not happen at this time.”...

...Secretary of State Mike Pompeo testified Thursday on Capitol Hill that he had spoken with Cavuşoğlu in recent days to push for Brunson’s return and implore Ankara not to buy the S-400. Turkey’s capacity to access the F-35, he said, “is still very much a live issue.”

U.S. Ambassador to NATO Kay Bailey Hutchison called the purchase “very serious” at a public forum on Wednesday. “They’re a very important partner,” she said of Turkey. “But no partner in NATO has ever purchased a Russian system that is not capable of being interoperable with our NATO systems.”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... f-35-sale/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 00:12
by zerion
Israel Concerned About F-35 Sale to Turkey, Expects U.S. to Withhold 'Upgrades

Israeli officials are concerned about a deal to provide F-35 stealth fighter jets to Turkey, and the issue is currently being discussed with the United States. A senior Israeli defense official says Israel would like to remain the only country in the Middle East with the F-35 in order to keep its military qualitative edge and out of fear that details about its capabilities would leak to neighboring countries...

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.6119034

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 08:59
by spazsinbad
Who is going to take this seriously - war/conflict with words only always fun. Operative word MAY yep merry month of.
:devil: BEWARE THE IDEAS of MAY! :doh:
Yeni Safak: Turkey may switch to Su-57
28 May 2018 Alert5

"Turkish newspaper Yeni Safak says Ankara may switch to buying the Russian Su-57 if Washington decides to suspend the delivery of F-35."

I'll only post Alert5 English and let someone else translate the Turkish link:
https://www.yenisafak.com/gundem/s-400d ... ri-3344132

Source: http://alert5.com/2018/05/28/yeni-safak ... -to-su-57/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 10:41
by loke
IF sales of F-35 to Turkey is stopped, then I would actually not be surprised to see Turkey purchasing a few Su-57... After all they are in the process of buying S-400 SAMs from Russia, in spite of several warnings from the US and other allies.

However some positive things have happened recently, seems they reached agreement on Manbij:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-tur ... map-132415

If Turkey could also free Mr. Brunson, and cancel the S-400 purchase then we would definitely be back on track!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 11:00
by loke
Although the Manbij deal is positive, there are other signs of tensions between Turkey and the US: Iran!

Turkey is an unlikely regional partner for the United States as it bids to contain Iran, experts and observers told Ahval, as the latest policy shift under the Trump administration drops the Iran nuclear deal and adopts a more anti-Iranian policy.

Turkish officials and businessmen have been involved in sanction-breaking deals with Iran in the recent past. Turkey has also moved close to Iran as the two countries, along with Russia, co-operate in efforts to solve the ongoing Syrian conflict, holding peace talks in Astana that undermine Western-backed peace talks in Geneva.

On the other hand, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, announcing his new Iran strategy on 21 May said, “We will track down Iranian operatives and their Hizballah proxies operating around the world and we will crush them. Iran will never again have carte blanche to dominate the Middle East.”

The Trump administration, known as one of the most anti-Iran administrations in recent decades, is now joined by Mike Pompeo, who has already threatened Iranian proxies in the region. His approach to Turkish affairs, remains unclear, though when it became clear Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan had overcame the coup attempt of July 2016, Pompeo took to twitter accusing Erdoğan of turning Turkey into an Islamist dictatorship.

“I don’t believe that Pompeo has any illusions about Erdogan,” Jonathan Schanzer, Vice President of research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a Washington think tank, told Ahval.

“I have yet to see a statement from the new Secretary of State about Turkey and its foreign policy,” Schanzer continued. “My hope is that he takes a tougher stance, and makes demands of Ankara to return to the NATO fold. Without a clear message along these lines, we are almost certain to see Turkey drift further from Washington and the rest of the West."

https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/turkey- ... n-strategy

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 17:07
by blindpilot
loke wrote:...
“I don’t believe that Pompeo has any illusions about Erdogan,” Jonathan Schanzer, Vice President of research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a Washington think tank, told Ahval.

“I have yet to see a statement from the new Secretary of State about Turkey and its foreign policy,” Schanzer continued. “My hope is that he takes a tougher stance, and makes demands of Ankara to return to the NATO fold. Without a clear message along these lines, we are almost certain to see Turkey drift further from Washington and the rest of the West."



Sometimes it's not inspired diplomatic maneuvering to some desired result. Rather it is aligning diplomatic policy with reality, such that the best result based in that reality is achieved.

In this case, if the controlling forces/people of Turkey want to return to Ataturk's vision, then the US/NATO needs to encourage/enable that to unfold. If they desire to return to Ottoman Glory, then once again history will repeat itself, and Russia will chew them up and spit them out, enslave the deluded Ottoman's.

Until the answer to "what is real," is known I'd be cautious what we sell them. If they want Russian slavery, it may just be better to cut bait now, feed them to the Russians, and let both countries wrestle in the swamp and mud of that reality.

If that is what is "real" then it would probably be best they didn't have latest block squadrons of F-35 ... at least not without an ALIS off switch. I'd probably start a rumor that there was such a switch, and/or that there was a "specific frequency radar echo strip, designed by Israeli Mossad" embedded in the wings of Turkey's air frames, just to put a nagging doubt in their minds, and trigger them to cancel the orders. Doesn't matter whether it was true in that case. It would remind them, who built the design... wrote the software ... and it wasn't them... Time to kick the little tin horn "Sultan's" backside. There are still Turks who long for Ataturk's noble vision. I hope we begin to see them emerge in the next election .. but honestly, my friends who left Turkey recently, are not encouraged.

MHO anyway,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2018, 13:01
by mixelflick
If Israel wants Turkey's F-35's blocked, it WILL happen.

And sure, let them have the SU-57. They'll probably get a dozen.... in 2025. Here's an idea: Do they have the kind of $ needed to partner with Russia in developing it? If so, they'll probably find out what the Indians did. Or, in another 10 years it'll be a lot better. It's a safe bet though that in 10 years it'll be a lot more expensive too..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2018, 13:57
by vilters
As long as Turkey stays under Islamic dictatorship, there won't be any F-35.

Simple
Effective
Everybody happy

They might buy F-57?
Great what does scrap aluminium cost these days?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 11:28
by spazsinbad
US in Talks with Turkey on Purchase of Russian S-400, Wilson Says
29 May 2018 STEVE HIRSCH​

"​The Trump Administration is negotiating with Turkey over the plan by that country, a NATO member, to buy the S-400 missile system from Russia, Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said Tuesday.

Army Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti, head of US European Command and Supreme Allied Commander Europe, told members of the Senate Armed Services Committee in March that while Turkey had announced plans to buy the system, there was still time to convince Turkish leaders a better system was available.

Taking questions during a presentation at the Atlantic Council in Washington, D.C., Wilson did not provide details of current bilateral talks led by Defense and State Department officials on the issue, but said the move “does present some operational problems that we’re discussing with Turkey … particularly as it relates to the location of advanced aircraft in Turkey,” including US-made aircraft such as the F-35.

“We would not want to have that aircraft close to the S-400,” she said. “Those discussions are going on with Turkey, and I think that we are hopeful that that can be resolved before they would take delivery of that aircraft into Turkey itself,” she said...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... -Says.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 12:35
by loke
loke wrote:However some positive things have happened recently, seems they reached agreement on Manbij:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-tur ... map-132415


Interestingly, the US denies that an agreement has been reached on Manbij:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-say ... yet-132564

Turchia quo vadis?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 16:42
by durahawk
mixelflick wrote:If Israel wants Turkey's F-35's blocked, it WILL happen.


... under what precedent exactly? Isreal did not want the Saudis to get the Eagle either. Didn't stop the show there.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 16:52
by geokav

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 19:26
by tsl256
geokav wrote:MiG-35 maybe...?


<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1000984876059906048</span>


If the SU-57 is denied to Turkey, then they will most likely go for the J-31, which will likely be combat ready before the SU-57.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 19:41
by durahawk
tsl256 wrote:
geokav wrote:MiG-35 maybe...?


<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1000984876059906048</span>


If the SU-57 is denied to Turkey, then they will most likely go for the J-31, which will likely be combat ready before the SU-57.


All the Erdoganistas on this forum keep touting the EJ200 powered TFX as an F-35 slayer anyhow. Why not just let them pursue that.

Not to worry though,Turkey will get the F-35... If there is one thing US Congress has a firm crasp on, it's incompetence.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 13:46
by mixelflick
durahawk wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If Israel wants Turkey's F-35's blocked, it WILL happen.


... under what precedent exactly? Israel did not want the Saudis to get the Eagle either. Didn't stop the show there.


The pro-Israel lobby in the US isn't exactly a secret. Big money and big politics will block that sale. RSAF F-15's are going to show up on Israeli radar like flying CVN's. 100 F-35's pointed their way is quite another matter. Forget 100, if only 1 F-35 falls into the wrong hands, it threatens to undermine their entire fleet.

The decade long qualitative edge they maintain will be erased - instantly.

They will not stand for it..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 17:24
by blindpilot
mixelflick wrote:...
The decade long qualitative edge they maintain will be erased - instantly.

They will not stand for it..

It's a little more complex than that.

First, when Iran ended up with the F-14 (which btw I dragged over there), it was a problem for us that a hostile regime had the tech. That's true. But the effectiveness of the fleet was hampered by killing the support (maintenance etc.) chain. This despite some creative back channel smuggling and Iran/Contra et al. They have/had F-14 'minus' versions, and had to use them very carefully, even in the Iraq war. With a complex aircraft like the F-35 this is even more of a problem.

Second, the advantages of the F-35 are more fragile than flying A-37's out of S. Vietnam. The manufacturing tolerances, materials, supplies, stealth testing, etc. cannot be "stolen." The infrastructure and environment have to be created. Ask the Japanese, that's easier said than done, and they (the Japanese) could do it. The Turks/Russians, if managed, would struggle to even keep the stealth repair/maintenance up or the software environment. Without these the F-35 ends up being a good F-16V/F-18E in quick order.

Third, those things said, Turkey is two communities tearing itself apart. The Ataturk community is quite talented with world class capabilities, but will they be available for the Islamic Sultanate to use? Turkey has a problem today because they don't have near enough fighter pilots available. All of them are in prison. This reality could ground the entire Turkish Air Force if things turn sour. Islamic fanatics make lousy pilots. "Allah Akbar!" doesn't fly fighter jets. I know. I saw Iranian/Arabian students crashing T-38's that "Allah was flying." But if they let pilots out of prison, a whole new sticky wicket of coup paranoia emerges again.

Things are much messier than qualitative edges" instantly being anything. Is Israel watching closely? No doubt, but let's not overstate what happens instantly.

MHO,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 18:36
by sferrin
Turkey using the jet in ways we wouldn't want is but a microscopic part of the issue. The MUCH larger issue is all of it's technology and specifics flowing directly to Russia and China, helping them both defend against US stealth and improving their own stealth.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 08:28
by loke
The Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), a Washington think tank, has issued a new report on Western nationals' long months of imprisonment in Turkish jails entitled 'Erdoğan's Hostage Diplomacy. Western Nationals in Turkish Prisons."
Dr. Aykan Erdemir, a senior fellow at the FDD authored the report with the former United States Ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, a senior adviser at the same think tank.

The report lists 40 individuals affected by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's "hostage diplomacy," a term used to describe the arrest of foreign nationals in Turkey, allegedly to extract concessions from their home countries.

40 hostages!? I did not know it was that many.

The paper concludes that "Ultimately, only a strong, coordinated, and unwavering response can deter the Turkish president from further using Western nationals as pawns to advance his political agenda." Sanctioning Turkey, a very popular topic in Washington recently, is one of the paper's "must-do" policy tools when dealing with Erdogan.

Both chambers of Congress have prepared similar bills to target Turkey through sanctions and other means in recent weeks. The sale of weapons to Turkey is also expected to be halted fully until the U.S. administration's interagency groups prepare and deliver a report within 60 days of the bill being passed, focusing on the problems that the both countries have been grappling with.


https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/do-not- ... think-tank

I could not agree more. This Turkisk behavior is completely unacceptable. EU and NATO should both send a very clear, strong, and coordinated message to Turkey that this behavior must change and all hostages must be released. Not that I think it will happen, in particular not with the current US president...

The last sentence in bold above is interesting -- is this really the case now?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 16:04
by blindpilot
sferrin wrote:Turkey using the jet in ways we wouldn't want is but a microscopic part of the issue. The MUCH larger issue is all of it's technology and specifics flowing directly to Russia and China, helping them both defend against US stealth and improving their own stealth.


Two points there.
First as to tech going to Russia/China to improve their stealth. The tech is different than before. The Russians/Chinese have already spied/stolen the theory/product info. They pretty much know what we've done. The problem is the production, material science behind the doing is not something easily managed. That's at the "doing it" level. Knowing the angles or elements in the component doesn't make them at the tolerances needed. That's why I say the Japanese could do it, having more info than the Russian/Chinese, and they have stepped back, saying this is too high a mountain for us to climb. This is mostly not the tech of old, that we are used to having stolen. Look at the Chinese struggling to make a jet engine. They have the info. They just can't do it. Stealth is hard.
Secondly, to gaining advantages in their counter stealth systems. I agree there is some risk of setback in this. They might find what RF frequency at what angles are optimum for counter tech. But they already know the general parameters, and getting the exact data is really only a marginal step forward. The hard science is what it is, and works against what can be used. But I'd rather they not have a sample to fine tune such things. I agree with you here, but it's not an instantaneous negating of the advantages. Even more so with most of the functions being software driven. There is no "radio" to examine, beyond what already is known from electronic snooping, and the "radio" can be changed whimsically in software.

Not good for them to have a sample? Yes that's true. But an instantaneous collapse of effectiveness. No that is not true.

loke wrote:
...
The report lists 40 individuals affected by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's "hostage diplomacy," a term used to describe the arrest of foreign nationals in Turkey, allegedly to extract concessions from their home countries.

40 hostages!? I did not know it was that many.
...


Seriously, this is on the level of a massive purge. When my friends took their families and left months ago, they were genuinely afraid for their safety, and they were apolitical, and no threat to the "regime," at all. They "fled." They didn't simply leave. We need to stop the F-35(and use other sanctions) for that reason, and not the ones above.

MHO
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2018, 16:35
by KamenRiderBlade
Either way, the sale of F-35's to Turkey needs to be halted until the Democratic Government comes back into power.

As long as their is a Islamic Authoritarian regime, all sales should be frozen until the Democratic Government returns.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2018, 22:19
by weasel1962
Regardless of whether the next government is democratically elected, the political reality in Turkey is its going to be islamist. Just a question of degree. The likelihood for that part of the world is the more populist, the more Islamist.

Turkey as a program partner has substantial access to the F-35 program. If sales are halted and Turkey chooses to go another route, it should not be surprising that they monetise what they know i.e. sell F-35 knowledge and tech to the highest bidder(s). That includes production plans and data. Hacking may already have given some countries a lot of information but that's nothing compared to what a program partner can provide.

Considering that wider ramifications and benefits that Turkey provides particularly as a continuing bulwark against wider Russian influence in the region + 70 years of carefully cultivated efforts to move Turkey west-wards, I'm not sure if that's worth risking for the F-35 delivery stoppage.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 02:50
by weasel1962
Couldn't find this on hurriyet but article citing hurriyet claiming the invite for the delivery ceremony has been received from LM.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2018 ... 5-delivery

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 03:20
by Corsair1963
Turkey to take delivery of first F-35 on Jun. 21


https://youtu.be/YDq7Ewkf6R4

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 04:48
by Corsair1963
WASHINGTON — U.S.-backed Kurdish fighters will withdraw from the key Syrian town of Manbij under a deal reached with the Trump administration, Turkish officials said Monday, potentially easing a serious rift between the U.S. and Turkey.



If successful, a deal to resolve the future of Manbij, a strategic town in north Syria, could avert a tense standoff in northern Syria between Kurdish-led militias and Turkish-backed Syrian fighters. The spat with Turkey, which considers the Kurdish fighters to be terrorists who threaten Turkish sovereignty, has become a major sore point between NATO allies and a distraction for the U.S.-led coalition seeking to defeat the Islamic State group in Syria.

The agreement to resolve the future of Manbij came in a meeting in Washington between Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and visiting Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu. In a joint statement after the meeting, the U.S. and Turkey said the diplomats had “endorsed a roadmap” that aims to “ensure the security and stability in Manbij,” but offered no details.




https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... witter.com

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 08:47
by loke
I hope this time the roadmap is followed. Turkey has long been offering every kind of support to her ally to fight against Daesh together.

Not entirely true, this was written in 2014:

Mr. Erdogan’s behavior is hardly worthy of a NATO ally. He was so eager to oust Mr. Assad that he enabled ISIS and other militants by allowing fighters, weapons and revenues to flow through Turkey. If Mr. Erdogan refuses to defend Kobani and seriously join the fight against the Islamic State, he will further enable a savage terrorist group and ensure a poisonous long-term instability on his border.


https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/opin ... kurds.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 03:27
by spazsinbad
State Dept. Official: Turkey’s Interest in Russian Air Defense System Could Hurt Projects Like F-35
05 Jun 2018 John Grady

"Several U.S. military-industrial projects in cooperation Turkey are in question – including the production of the F-35 – if Ankara goes through with the acquisition of a Russian S-4000 air defense system, a senior State Department official said on Tuesday. The potential consequences of the Turkish decision will have a “ripple effect” on other joint production projects, A. Wess Mitchell, assistant secretary of state for Europe and Eurasian affairs, said at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, D.C....

...NATO needs to “keep Turkey pointed to the West for its future politically and strategically.”

He ticked off the reasons why Ankara remains “a critical partner” in NATO that includes the effort to defeat the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, continuing counter-terrorism work throughout the Middle East with the alliance and hosting the air base at Incirlik, key for U.S. military operations in the region and a defense against Russian air intrusions....

…[then lots of stuff best read at source] He expects at the alliance’s summit in Brussels next month that an agreement will be reached to “turn NATO’s attention to a southern vector” to address those challenges and the Kremlin’s stepped-up disinformation and political meddling campaigns."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/06/05/state- ... -like-f-35

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 07:52
by loke
I hope Turkey can be saved -- that would be a win-win, both for Turkey and for NATO/EU.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 15:21
by markithere
If Turkey holds another NATO country men hostage to extract something from that NATO country they are in active violation of Article 1, 2, 4, and 7.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 16:05
by durahawk
Corsair1963 wrote:Turkey to take delivery of first F-35 on Jun. 21


https://youtu.be/YDq7Ewkf6R4


Like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 02:05
by madrat
Face it, if the coup happened when F-35 was there Erdogan's escort goes down about the same instant his presidential place does. Does anyone really think Erdogan won't use the F-35 as insurance against F-16 operators getting out of line?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 20:30
by geokav
SEC. 1269. REMOVAL OF TURKEY FROM THE F–35 PROGRAM.

Pages 680 - 681.
If this passes from Trump, Turkey will have an enormous problem. But after Tsavousoglou's trip to the US, Turkey announced a delay of 10 months regarding S-400 acceptance, with an excuse of "not enough training for Turkish operators..."


https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/i ... 987pcs.pdf

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 09:57
by spazsinbad
Despite some opposition, US on course to deliver F-35s to Turkey on June 21
13 Jun 2018 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The U.S. government is proceeding with plans to deliver the first F-35 to Turkey, with the country set to accept its first jet on June 21 despite opposition from some in Congress....

...“The aircraft will then ferry to Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, where Turkish pilots will join the F-35A training pool.”

The Senate is set to vote this week on the annual defense policy bill, which includes language that would prohibit the U.S. government from “transfer of title” to Turkey until the time that the Defense Department submits a report to Congress on removal of Turkey from the F-35 program....

...for now, it appears that the Defense Department has no plans to keep Turkey from getting its first F-35 or to put restrictions on its use at Luke AFB....

...After a meeting in Washington with U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo earlier this month, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu expressed confidence that the United States would not only deliver the first F-35 to Turkey as planned, but that it would ultimately decide to continue F-35 sales to Turkey.

“Turkey rejects threatening language from the U.S. on the issue, it is not constructive,” Çavuşoğlu said on June 4, according to a report from the Turkish newsgroup Anadolu Agency....

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-pr ... n-june-21/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 12:20
by mgelevli
As a Turkish citizen, I find it quite a big mistake to purchase Russian systems. It is a big waste of money. I would prefer those funds to be directed for domestic and cooperative defense projects, that would enhance our national defense capabilities, keeping up with the NATO standarts, which I consider has given the qualitative edge to our armed forces for many years.
Turkish Air Defenses have relied on fighter aircraft for many years. It is no doubt we need a layered, network centric integrated air defense system. S-400 will not give us a networked defense capability as we may not be able to use them within our air defense structure. They will be stand alone systems, which will make them vulnerable to SEAD/DEAD attacks. I would prefer a stop gap system procurement such as Patriot or EuroSAM and keep up the domestic R&D work for a long range air defense missile system just as we have done in low and medium altitude air defense missile systems ( HISAR-A and HISAR-O). In the long run, we would have domestic, indigenous missile systems that would be acceptable within the NATO defense structure and would not upset any of our allies.
In recent weeks there have been rumors of Su-57 fighters for the Turkish Air Force. This would be even a much worse situation for us. Of course, if US does indeed stop our participation in the F-35 program, and block the transfer of our F-35 jets, there may not be so much of an option for us. Never the less, the alternative of the F-35 should not be a Russian fighter. I would consider Eurofighter procurement, as this would be less traumatic for us, at least that it would not necessitate the procurement of a new set of ammunitions and may easily be integrated into our air defense network.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 15:13
by gideonic
Well Erdogan has stepped up the rethoric:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... les-133279

Besides [the S-400s], I have made a proposal to Russia for the joint production of the S-500s,” Erdoğan said in a televised interview late June 13.
...
“Also, we will undertake in the joint production in the second and third stages [of the S-400s],” he added.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 15:36
by loke
But President Tayyip Erdoğan has repeatedly said Turkey has been forced to buy Russian systems because the Americans have been declining to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/opinio ... ift-133252

What I quite don't understand is that Turkey claim that the US refused to sell Patriot to Turkey, and this forced Turkey to buy Russian SAMs.

However apart from Turkish claims I have not seen any statements from the US that they have blocked sales of Patriot to Turkey. Also it seems surprising that the US would refuse to sell Patrio to a NATO ally.

Perhaps Turkey has demanded ToT on Patriot, and perhaps this is what the US could not agree to? If this is the case, then IMHO Turkey has misrepresented the situation.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 01:16
by weasel1962
It was more Raytheon was restricted from providing the Patriot technology (aka black box) transfers that Turkey wanted. Standard tech transfer concerns.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 02:10
by madrat
Greece and Syria must have world class air force threats for Turkey to need S-400.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 03:18
by weasel1962
What Turkey is gunning for is not air defense per se but the long range missile technology. They tried early to burrow their way into the Arrow program but US blocked the access using MTCR as an excuse,

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 03:35
by kostas29
madrat wrote:Greece and Syria must have world class air force threats for Turkey to need S-400.


Greece as a matter fact does have.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2018, 11:21
by geokav
15th of June 2018
A letter of 44 members of the Congress to secretary of defense James Mattis for Turkish F-35s....


https://sarbanes.house.gov/sites/sarban ... SIGNED.pdf

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 03:27
by spazsinbad
Trump Administration Warns Friends Against Russia Arms Deals
18 Jun 2018 Paul McLeary

"As some Gulf and Asian allies consider big purchases of Russia arms, the Senate is set to uphold a law signed by Trump that would slap sanctions on them for cozying up with Moscow....

...Schenker’s [Trump administration nominee] comments came just days before Turkey is slated to receive its first F-35 aircraft in a ceremony at a Lockheed Martin facility in Texas, a deal which has been put in some jeopardy by the looming S-400 purchase. Both U.S. and NATO officials have criticized the move, saying that placing a Russian air defense system in a NATO country would not only give the Russian military a foothold inside NATO, but complicate the alliance’s larger air defense architecture.

Another provision in the 2016 NDAA being voted on Monday would ban the sale of the 100 F-35’s that Ankara is planning to purchase, citing the S-400 purchase.

Earlier this year, Gen. Petr Pavel, chairman of the NATO Military Committee, told me that the system itself is less an issue than is its database. “The database will be collected on the territory of a NATO ally, with all allied assets present in Turkey” being mapped and logged into Russian systems, he said. Russian personnel will be on the ground to instruct the Turkish military how to operate the complicated radars and fire control systems, handing Moscow critical intelligence on what NATO assets are in the country, where they are, and what kind of capabilities they may have.

Rarely one to back down, Turkey’s increasingly authoritarian President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has suggested in recent days he might be interested in buying the Russian’s even more advanced S-500 system."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/06/tru ... rms-deals/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 13:30
by vilters
I live in Belgium-Europe and UNFORTUNATELY we have the Turkish National TV on our TV Cable network. A disgrace to all.

I write "Unfortunately", because you can turn the TV on at ANY time of the day, it is Erdolan again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

They have only a single artist, a single reporter, a single singer, a single show :
The ERDOLAN Show, form morning, till evening, and if you missed something, look at night.

The state controlled Turk National TV is a MASTER in the game of brain washing its population.

Come to think of it. He must be close friends with that other dictator wannabe clown from North Korea.
They also SHOUT the news to their listeners over there. LOL.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 14:12
by sferrin
Turkish PM Says US Bill Blocking F-35 Sales ‘Unfortunate’

"The U.S. Senate's decision to pass a bill prohibiting the sale of Lockheed Martin's F-35 jets to Turkey is unfortunate and against the spirit of strategic partnership, Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım said on Tuesday.

“The decision is unfortunate, but Turkey is not without alternatives. It is regrettable that the U.S. Senate has made such a move, which is against the spirit of strategic partnership,” he said.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said on Tuesday that the first F-35 jet would be delivered to Turkey on Thursday. “The rollout ceremony for Turkey’s first F-35 aircraft will be held on June 21,” Çavuşoğlu said. "

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... f_35s.html

They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 15:30
by geforcerfx
sferrin wrote: They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.


Why? It's a training jet at Luke isn't it? doesn't go anywhere doesn't fly unless we let it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 22:33
by marsavian
The Turkish F-35s were not meant to fly to Turkey for another two years anyway, enough time to resolve this matter one way or the other. 85 Senators is a veto proof majority and I can't see Trump going to bat for Erdogan over this. This is really a done deal unless President Ottoman Slap changes course and drops the aggressive rhetoric as well as the S-400s. At this rate I can't see even an AESA upgrade for their F-16s being sanctioned. The Sultan will drop the S-400 within those two years as he will appreciate the offense that F-35 gives him more than the defense that S-400 will. The rest is just bluster before this eventuality.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/opinio ... key-133017

The Turkish government has not decided the level of representation in that ceremony. Ankara is probably waiting to see who will be present from the U.S. side. When their first F-35 was delivered two months ago the defense minister of South Korea was there, as well as one senator and one congressman from Texas. It is not difficult to imagine that Turkey’s ceremony at Fort Worth will not be a real party like the Koreans had. There will certainly be representatives from the Pentagon and the U.S. Air Force. But the idea that some members of the U.S. Congress will happily pose with Turkish officials in front of that F-35 seems like a pipe dream.

It seems that the F-35 will be delivered to the Turkish side but it will not fly to Turkey for almost two years, while Turkish pilots are trained with it on American soil. The Trump administration will use this to defend itself against Congress, arguing that the F-35 project will not be compromised until that plane lands in Turkey while hoping in the meantime that Ankara will drop its commitment about the purchase of S-400s from Russia.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 23:10
by sferrin
geforcerfx wrote:
sferrin wrote: They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.


Why? It's a training jet at Luke isn't it? doesn't go anywhere doesn't fly unless we let it.


Did not know that. Good to hear.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 22:40
by geokav
vilters wrote:I live in Belgium-Europe and UNFORTUNATELY we have the Turkish National TV on our TV Cable network. A disgrace to all.

I write "Unfortunately", because you can turn the TV on at ANY time of the day, it is Erdolan again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

They have only a single artist, a single reporter, a single singer, a single show :
The ERDOLAN Show, form morning, till evening, and if you missed something, look at night.

The state controlled Turk National TV is a MASTER in the game of brain washing its population.

Come to think of it. He must be close friends with that other dictator wannabe clown from North Korea.
They also SHOUT the news to their listeners over there. LOL.


That is "democracy" by Erdoğan point of view. You can't see anyone else because they are in prison …. :lmao:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2018, 21:52
by spazsinbad
Turkey gets first F-35, but faces halt on future deliveries if Congress gets its way
21 Jun 2018 Valerie Insinna

"...After the delivery, Turkey’s first F-35 is set to move to Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., where the Turkish pilots will be embedded inside a U.S. Air Force training squadron and learn to operate the F-35 alongside American pilots.

Turkish maintainers have already started their training at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, Ufuk Er [Turkish Maj. Gen. Reha Ufuk Er] said."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-pr ... eliveries/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2018, 23:25
by spazsinbad
Turkey Receives First F-35 Despite Political Row
22 Jun 2018 Chris Pocock

"...Turkey has been a level-two partner in the F-35 program since 2002, when it joined early in the System Design and Development (SDD) phase. It has stated a requirement for 100 aircraft, and the Turkish aerospace industry is providing parts and software for the entire program. In late 2014, the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) chose Turkey as the location for overhauls of the jet’s F135 engine. Pratt & Whitney created a joint venture in Izmir with Kale Aero in 2010, to manufacture parts for the F135.

Turkey’s first F-35 was shown at the ceremony with a SOM-J cruise missile developed by Roketsan and Tubitak-SAGE, and a 500-pound bomb equipped with the HGK GPS/INS guidance kit developed by the latter company. Turkish air force Maj. Gen. Rehar Ufuker said that both these Turkish weapons would be integrated with the F-35 “in the near future.” Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control has partnered with Roketsan to jointly develop and market the SOM-J.

Lockheed Martin leadership made no reference to the Senate action at the ceremony. However, chairman, president and CEO Marillyn Hewson said that the F-35 is “a decisive strategic tool [in cementing] strong and effective alliances.” Ufuker echoed the sentiment, saying that Turkey’s F-35s would “contribute greatly to the NATO alliance and regional security.” The country is offering to provide aircrew and maintenance training for other NATO allies that are buying F-35s, he added."

Photo: "At the delivery ceremony for Turkey’s first F-35, two indigenous weapons were shown. (Photo: Lockheed Martin)" https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default ... emony-.jpg


Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... itical-row

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2018, 04:10
by southernphantom
Like delivering F-14s to the IIAF in 1976...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2018, 19:49
by outlaw162
the general has an interesting name

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2018, 21:19
by spazsinbad

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 17:57
by f4u7_corsair
sferrin wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:
sferrin wrote: They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.


Why? It's a training jet at Luke isn't it? doesn't go anywhere doesn't fly unless we let it.


Did not know that. Good to hear.


Is this really how LM and Americans hope to sell the F-35 to Finland, who focuses great attention on self-reliance (logistical and operational)? :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 18:09
by spazsinbad
Why does FINLAND feature in a TURKEY thread? Is Finland part of NATO? Is Finland buying Russian/Chinese equipment? NO.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 18:27
by kimjongnumbaun
f4u7_corsair wrote:
Is this really how LM and Americans hope to sell the F-35 to Finland, who focuses great attention on self-reliance (logistical and operational)? :doh:


That's pretty normal unless you think countries automatically have bases setup to handle the F-35 with pre trained crews and pilots.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 22:19
by geforcerfx
f4u7_corsair wrote:
Is this really how LM and Americans hope to sell the F-35 to Finland, who focuses great attention on self-reliance (logistical and operational)? :doh:


That's how the Finn's would train with there first few jets and crews, then take the jets and trained experienced personel back to Finland where there home training base awaits. Those first pilots and maintainers are trained on the jet and trained how to train future pilots and crews, after this is done they have the knowledge and experience to train in there home country like most F-35 operators are.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 23:36
by marsavian
US Likely to Block F-35 Sale if Turkey Buys Russian Missile: Official

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... icial.html

The United States could still block the delivery of F-35 stealth jets to Turkey if Ankara buys Russia's S-400 air defense system, a senior official said Wednesday.

U.S. defense giant Lockheed Martin delivered an F-35 to Turkish officials in Texas last week, but Assistant Secretary of State Wess Mitchell warned the program could still be halted.

The advanced jets will remain on U.S. soil in Arizona while their Turkish pilots are trained, giving the State Department time to intervene, the top official told a Senate hearing.

"In this program the U.S. maintains custody of aircraft until they are transferred. That normally occurs after a lengthy training process," Mitchell told the Senate Foreign Relations committee.

"We believe that we have existing legal authorities that would allow us to withhold transfer under certain circumstances, including national security concerns," he said.

"Given that, we believe that we continue to have time and ability to assure that Turkey does not move forward on S-400 before having to take a decision on F-35," he explained.

Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was re-elected at the weekend with increased presidential powers.

His administration is in dispute with its NATO ally Washington on a number of points, including its repeatedly stated intent to deploy Russia's S-400 anti-aircraft missile system.

This would mean Turkey's defenses are not compatible with those of its Western allies and put it in breach of U.S. sanctions aimed at hobbling Russia's defense export sector.

U.S. lawmakers are working on ways to punish Turkey if it buys the S-400 or if it continues to imprison two dozen US citizens on "unjust" charges under Erdogan's state of emergency.

But Mitchell said President Donald Trump's administration already has the powers its needs under existing sanctions laws.

He said the U.S. had been clear that "an acquisition of S-400 will inevitably affect the prospects for Turkish military-industrial cooperation with the United States, including F-35s."

"We can't be any clearer in saying, both privately and publicly: a decision on S-400s will qualitatively change the US-Turkish relationship in a way that would be very difficult to repair."

Turkey has said the agreement on the S-400 system had already been reached, but Mitchell told lawmakers that Washington would judge this "when there's actual delivery of the technology."

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 03:15
by durahawk
Not that I think Turkey should get the F-35, but did the US Government have any beefs when Greece acquired the S-300PMU's? Understand the HAF acquired them in a round about way from Cyprus.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 10:20
by vilters
Erdolan does not care any more.
He won the elections and is now God himself. (Or allah)
He could rewrite the Koran into "The battle of 2020" and his people would still support him.

Blocking the F-35 is the only sane thing to do.

Remember the F-14 , the F-4 and F-5 sales to Iran?

History has the nasty habit of repeating itself.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 13:26
by sferrin
durahawk wrote:Not that I think Turkey should get the F-35, but did the US Government have any beefs when Greece acquired the S-300PMU's? Understand the HAF acquired them in a round about way from Cyprus.


Greece wasn't buying F-35s. It's F-16s, good as they are, were already a well known quantity, so it was less of an issue.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 15:11
by jakobs
durahawk wrote:Not that I think Turkey should get the F-35, but did the US Government have any beefs when Greece acquired the S-300PMU's? Understand the HAF acquired them in a round about way from Cyprus.


That was also more of a political solution to keep peace between two Nato allies. I would guess US Government gave strong support for the deal. Also Greece haven't been using them, just keeping them in storage on Crete.

First test shots was not fired until only a couple of years ago.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 03:43
by spazsinbad
A bit of lite relief for those 'TURKEY PUNCHERS':

https://youtu.be/3e5nkZrBv7M?t=48

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 14:47
by spazsinbad
Turkey Received Delivery Of Its First F-35 Aircraft
30 Jun 2018 Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries

"Turkey, being a program partner under the F-35 project since its inception in 1999, received delivery of its first aircraft in a ceremony held in Fort Worth, USA. The F-35 aircraft, which the Turkish defense industry sector is actively involved in production, will remain in the USA for a while for the training of our pilots, and will start to arrive to the duty posts in our country starting from November 2019….

...The first received F-35 aircraft with tail number 18-0001 will be assigned to Luke Air Base in Arizona for use in pilot training. Activation work is already continuing at the Malatya 7th Main Jet Base Command which will be the first base where the F-35 aircraft will be deployed in Turkey and which also will host the Integrated Training Center where the pilot and maintenance training will be provided. Training activities will begin in country in 2020 following the arrival of the first aircraft in Turkey in November 2019."

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/turkey- ... 5-aircraft

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 14:53
by spazsinbad
Trump guarantees F-35 deliveries to Ankara, says Turkish minister
29 Jun 2019 Garrett Reim

"Turkey’s foreign minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu says in a TV interview that US president Donald Trump personally promised to ensure the delivery of the Lockheed Martin F-35A to his country....

...Trump told Turkey’s government that he would take the steps necessary to make sure the NATO ally received the aircraft it ordered from Lockheed Martin, according to the country’s foreign minister in an interview with Turkish television station NTV on 29 June.

The National Security Council confirmed that the US president spoke with Erdoğan, but declined to confirm or deny that the F-35 was part of the conversation...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ur-449849/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 09:00
by barrelnut
It would be kinda difficult to block Turkey getting their F-35's. Turkey is a partner nation to the program and has thus paid development costs, and is a NATO ally after all.

If Turkey cannot be trusted for having too close connections with Russia, they should be kicked out of NATO first IMHO.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 09:33
by Corsair1963
Turkey has a lot to loose in any split with the West. So, my guess they would back down. If, push comes to shove.. :wink:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 03:51
by spazsinbad
Two Page PDF of article attached.
Lightning storm
10-16 Jul 2018 GARRETT REIM

"Turkey’s acquisition of a Russian anti-aircraft system has led US opponents to seek a block on F-35 sales to the country,
bringing its participation in the programme into question...""

Source: Flight International | 10-16 July 2018 Magazine

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 10:20
by spazsinbad
:doh: :devil: Turkey Turkey Turkey - Gobble Gobble Gobble this offer up - PUHLEEZ. :doh: :mrgreen:

Another kerfuffle here: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... of-450319/
US Still Hopes to Sway Turkey to Buy Patriot Missiles over S-400
16 Jul 2018 Oriana Pawlyk

"FARNBOROUGH, England -- While there is no formal deal in place, U.S. officials are still hoping to convince Turkey to buy the Patriot missile system. The catch? Turkey would need to dump its newly inked deal with Russia to procure the S-400 surface-to-air missile system.

"Ultimately, we are concerned that by purchasing these systems from the Russians, it will be supportive of some of the least good behavior that we have seen from them in various places, including in Europe but also elsewhere," said Tina Kaidanow, acting assistant secretary for the Bureau of Political Military Affairs at the State Department....

...It is unclear which versions are being pitched to Turkey; however, Raytheon earlier this year hinted there is another country interested in buying the PAC-3 MSE advanced system, according to a report from Defense News last week....

...Kaidanow said customers should consider future transactions when dealing with adversary systems. "That's true of a number of our partners. It's not just ... the Turks, as I said," she said.

According to the Daily Sabah Diplomacy, a Turkish news site, Turkey has not ruled out purchase of the Patriot system. Unidentified officials who spoke to the paper said that while no deal is in place, conversations have been had about the system before. But the Patriot isn't a suitable alternative to the S-400, the officials told Daily Sabah.

In March, Aksam, a Turkish newspaper, reported that conversations were expected to continue on a potential Patriot buy."

Source: https://www.military.com/defensetech/20 ... s-400.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 14:57
by spazsinbad
MOre YadaYadaYada:

Raytheon missile defense chief: Turkey Patriot decision ‘is all political’ Jill Aitoro 16 Jul 2018

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... political/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 15:28
by spazsinbad
Perhaps the turkeymens are holding out for da GaN? No NOT AFgannyStan.

GaN Radar To Enhance Patriot Air Defense System 17 Jul 2018 David Donald
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... nse-system

Photo: "Raytheon has amassed around 3,000 hours run-time on the prototype GaN radar for Patriot." https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default ... an-pic.gif

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 23:05
by spazsinbad
DOD opposes removing Turkey from F-35 programme, citing supply chain disruption
20 Jul 2018 Garrett Reim

"In a letter sent to US Representative Mac Thornberry, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, US Secretary of Defense James Mattis acknowledged concerns about the Turkish government, while opposing US lawmakers’ efforts to remove the country from the F-35 Lightning II programme, saying the loss of the nation from the supply chain would delay delivery of some aircraft for up to two years....

...Until now, the Defense Department has been silent on lawmaker opposition to Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 programme. “Removing Turkey could trigger a supply chain disruption for the US military and our partners, as well as increase other program costs,” Mattis says in his letter to the House Armed Services Committee Chairman on 7 July. “If the Turkish supply chain was disrupted today, it would result in an aircraft production break delaying delivery of 50-75 F-35s, and would take approximately 18-24 months to re-source parts and recover.”

In co-ordination with Northrop Grumman, the main fuselage manufacturer for the F-35, Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactures and assembles centre fuselages, produces composite skins and weapon bay doors, and fibre placement composite air inlet ducts. In total, ten different Turkish firms make parts for every F-35 manufactured....

...The House Armed Services Committee decline to comment on the letter from Mattis."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... it-450558/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 14:15
by madrat
A general more concerned with the supply chain than security implications?

Doesn't sound right at all.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 01:38
by spazsinbad
Congress Halts F-35 Turkey Transfers, Punts On Space Force
23 Jul 2018 Colin Clark

"CAPITOL HILL The Senate and House have come together on a $716 billion defense spending report that would prohibit the transfer of F-35 jets to Turkey, expand American aid to Asian allies to counter China and add ships and other technology funding lines above the White House request....

...The language on Turkey will likely anger Ankara, which plans to buy the Russian-made S-400 air defense system despite loud objections from fellow NATO members who say that the system will compromise the alliance’s security. The purchase from Russia is also putting Turkish participation in the F-35 program in jeopardy, as Congress is ready to stop all deliveries of the plane to Turkey.

“We’re trying to make a point that is broader than just the F-35,” said one aide, adding that the report is “taking a look at all of the major FMS sales pending with Turkey, and requires an assessment of the overall U.S. strategic relation with Turkey.”

The two houses of Congress have also come to an agreement that countries must show a path toward breaking their military relationship with Moscow before being granted a waiver, while continuing the ban on any military-to-military interactions between the United States and Russia. That one seems aimed straight at Turkey and at India, which continues to buy considerable amounts of Russian hardware....

...A helpful footnote: although the Pentagon almost always respects language in the NDAA report, it does have not the force of law, as does the National Defense Authorization Act." [once again bullshite baffles brains]

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/07/con ... ace-force/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 19:44
by sunstersun
**** a space force, give me a cyber force with laxed recruitment laws.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 20:08
by kimjongnumbaun
sunstersun wrote:**** a space force, give me a cyber force with laxed recruitment laws.


Space and cyber are considered the same realm for the military.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:37
by spazsinbad
Lockheed Martin: F-35 Production on Track Even as Congress Mulls Barring Turkey’s Participation
24 Jul 2018 Ben Werner

"...analysts wanted Lockheed Martin officials to explain how potential Congressional action blocking Turkey from taking ownership of their F-35 aircraft could hurt the overall financial performance of the company’s largest program.

Congressional leaders, Pentagon officials and Lockheed Martin executives have all spoken frequently about the need to bring the overall program cost down to below $100 million per fighter if the program is going to be sustainable, but any cost savings plans discussed include Turkey’s planned purchase 100 F-35 aircraft. Turkey has been a member of the F-35 program since its 1999 inception.

However, Congress is threatening to block NATO-member Turkey from taking ownership of its aircraft because of concerns the nation is considering purchasing the Russian-made S-400 air and missile defense system.

The FY 2019 National Defense Authorization Act, which emerged from a conference committee Monday evening, specifically asks for Secretary of Defense James Mattis to provide Congress with an update on Turkey’s military relationship with the U.S. military. Turkey’s proposed purchase of the S-400 system concerns Congressional leaders, according to the NDAA language, because its deployment poses “operational and counterintelligence risks” to the U.S. operation of F-35 aircraft.

Coincidentally, last month Lockheed Martin held a roll-out ceremony for Turkey’s first two F-35 aircraft. Turkey’s F-35 acquisition is part the U.S. Department of State-administered Foreign Military Sales program, which allows foreign governments to purchase military equipment from the U.S. government. Purchases made through this program require Congressional approval.

“This is under the FMS, the foreign military sales arrangement,” Tanner said. “This is a contract between Lockheed and the US Government, as opposed to direct commercial sales, so we’ll continue to deliver aircraft until the U.S. government says don’t deliver those aircraft, which we’re not expecting.”

For now, Tanner said Lockheed Martin is delivering Turkish aircraft on schedule. For the time being, as is with the case with any international sale, Tanner said the Turkish aircraft remain in the U.S. as Turkey’s pilots train with their aircraft.

“We have some time before those aircraft would leave the U.S.,” Tanner said...."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/07/24/35291

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:41
by spazsinbad
Congress Moves Closer to Suspending Sales of F-35 to Turkey
24 Jul 2018 Oriana Pawlyk

"The suspension of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter sales to Turkey has become more likely after both the House and Senate opposed the deal in their versions of the 2019 National Defense Authorization Act.

The Defense Department has 90 days from the bill's final passage to submit a report to lawmakers explaining the strategic value of selling the jet to Turkey, a member of NATO. Until that time, deliveries of the fifth-generation fighter to Turkey will be on hold, House aides told reporters Monday, The Hill reported....

...The House is expected to vote on the conference version of the NDAA this week; the Senate should vote on the bill in August."

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... urkey.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:13
by Corsair1963
Lockheed Martin: F-35 Production on Track Even as Congress Mulls Barring Turkey’s Participation

By: Ben Werner

July 24, 2018 3:20 PM

The stealthy F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter won’t be overly exposed to cost pressures if international customer Turkey is barred by Congress from taking ownership of its aircraft, Lockheed Martin’s senior leadership said while discussing second quarter financial results with Wall Street analysts during a Tuesday conference call..........

https://news.usni.org/2018/07/24/35291#more-35291

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2018, 22:48
by spazsinbad
A long comprehensive article covering details well known here in earlier posts so only first/last few paragraphs below.
Aperture
September John A. Tirpak

"TRIUMF OF THE WON'T
Perhaps the most serious rift in years between NATO allies and among development partners on the F-35 strike fighter has been playing out over the last few months. It’s all about Turkey’s decision to buy Russia’s advanced Almaz-Antey S-400 “Triumf” air defense system.

In June, US senators inserted language into the 2019 National Defense Appropriations bill to block Turkey from fielding the F-35s that country has already purchased. The senators said they’re immediately concerned about the F-35’s stealth secrets leaking to Russia if the jet is flown in close proximity to the S-400....

...The bill would keep Turkey from receiving the technical information or support necessary to maintain and operate the F-35s. The already-passed House version of the Fiscal 2019 NDAA would stop all weapon sales to Turkey pending a Pentagon review of the tensions between the two countries....

...The S-400, as an adversary, “limits the range, particularly, of your legacy aircraft ... you have to work farther away” to be safe from the system’s missiles, Holmes said. “It means you have to go farther off the tankers, so you have less time when you’re forward.” Holmes said he would prefer not to fly the F-35 in close proximity to the S-400. The “how and when” is a “policy issue” on which he would not comment. “We take steps—whenever we fly the airplane—to do the gain and loss analysis of ‘where do we want to fly it, what do we want to do, who do we want to fly it with,’ and we’ll continue to work through those processes and make recommendations up the chain” of command, Holmes said.

A balance has to be struck, he said, “between demonstrating commitment and assuring your allies” and “preserving your state secrets.” It may be “hard to avoid” exposing the F-35 to adversary radars in the long term, though, Holmes said. “The airplane’s out there. We’ve accepted 300 of them” in the US services, and they will soon be based overseas by the US armed forces, “Alaska next, and to the United Kingdom after that,” Holmes pointed out. Some European partners are already fielding their F-35s, he said. “So, I think the question ... is not so much about ‘will you,’ it’s about ‘how will’ you do it” and still strike the balance of power projection and secrecy.

Although the Turkish government says that only Turkish troops will crew the S-400 system—a series of vehicles involving both radars and missiles—it is likely that Russian advisors will teach the crews how to operate the system against a variety of threats. Not widely known is that the S-400 is not just an air defense system. It can be employed as a ballistic missile system, striking at ground targets with high precision. Turkey has said it needs the system to defend against ISIS and the Kurds—neither of which have an air force—and also against Iran, which does....

...The Pentagon is loathe to alienate a long-term stalwart ally with a large military. Several Defense officials said that making the S-400 a loyalty test will only antagonize Turkey and, as one said, “drive them into the arms of Putin.” However, a Senate staffer said things may already have gone too far in that direction, and the legislation should be a wake-up call to Turkey to turn things around or face the unappealing outcome of becoming a Russian client state. “We don’t have to stay to the end to know how this movie turns out,” he said.""

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... rture.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 15:16
by mixelflick
Let Turkey go, the F-35 is too big a security risk.

I mean seriously, our entire air to air/ground game plan (and most of our allies) is predicated on the F-35 and its secrets. Let Turkey order up as much Russian equipment as it likes, they'll learn the hard way the brochure specs don't add up in the real world. And they'll get their SU-57's, some day LOL

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 03:38
by durahawk
This sale is looking better and better all the time :bang:

It's almost like they are trying to get kicked out of the program to make mockery of the fact the US Government is too inept to stop the sale. I can't for the life of me figure out why DoD (or Lockheed for that matter, they might be greedy, but not stupid) still wants this to go through.

Turkish lawyers want to raid İncirlik Air Base and arrest U.S. Air Force officers
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... -officers/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 03:50
by talkitron
Turkey’s currency just set a record low versus the dollar. Erdogan is too proud to release the detained American pastor.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 17:55
by steve2267
If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 19:25
by XanderCrews
steve2267 wrote:If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...



Or that Su-57 Ive heard is the clear alternative :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 21:25
by marsavian
Trump is sticking the boot in by doubling steel/aluminium tariffs on Turkey. I think the F-35 is the least of their problems now in trying to rescue this relationship. As the old song goes ... freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose ! So Erdogan, how's that Ottoman Empire 2.0 working out for you ? ;)






https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45123607

http://thehill.com/policy/international ... -on-turkey

http://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/stat ... 6586109955

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
I have just authorized a doubling of Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum with respect to Turkey as their currency, the Turkish Lira, slides rapidly downward against our very strong Dollar! Aluminum will now be 20% and Steel 50%. Our relations with Turkey are not good at this time!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 00:03
by popcorn
XanderCrews wrote:
steve2267 wrote:If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...



Or that Su-57 Ive heard is the clear alternative :doh:


There's always this, unbeatable CPFH... uses tokens :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 01:11
by spazsinbad
Reminds me of this BIRDIE story:
Chief Petty Officer Saves Air Force Pilot in Horse-Back Riding Mishap
01 Mar 2012 UNK page 12

“A Royal Australian Air Force Pilot serving in the Defence Department narrowly escaped serious injury recently when he attempted horseback riding with no prior experience. After mounting his horse unassisted, the horse immediately began moving. As it galloped along at a steady and rhythmic pace, the pilot, who has not been named, began to slip sideways from the saddle. Although attempting to grab for the horse's mane the pilot could not get a firm grip. He then threw his arms around the horse's neck but continued to slide down the side of the horse. The horse galloped along, seemingly oblivious to its slipping rider. Finally, losing his grip, the rider attempted to leap away from the horse & throw himself to safety.

However, his foot became entangled in the stirrup, leaving him at the mercy of the horse's pounding hooves as his head and upper body repeatedly struck the ground. Moments away from unconsciousness and possible death, to his great fortune an RAN Chief Petty Officer, shopping at K-Mart, saw him and quickly un-plugged the horse!”

Source: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/upl ... -Mar12.pdf (4.6Mb)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 02:19
by popcorn
BWAHAHAHA!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 04:45
by element1loop
ROFLMAO!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 00:17
by quicksilver
Well played Spaz. Blew a few suds through my nose on that one... :applause:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 09:56
by spazsinbad
OOPS NGJ video in rong thred.... :doh: GO HERE FOR NGJ Video from Raytheon:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=52254&p=399534&hilit=thread#p399534

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 11:02
by element1loop
"Would you like fries with that, sir?"

#You don't always get what you want.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 06:03
by beepa
Well looks like Trump has done the Turkey dump. Not going to be very many happy Turks around. Who knows what comes next. https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/08/13/tr ... -rift-f35/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 07:34
by Corsair1963
My guess is production will continue and Turkish F-35's will go straight to storage. If, this issue is resolved Turkey can still get her F-35's. If, not the US can keep the F-35's or put them up for sale (export)....



Also, this keep production of the F-35 going on both sides of the Atlantic. It's also worth noting much of what Turkey produces for the F-35 is already made by other suppliers. Including the center fuselage/intakes. Which, is produced by both Northrup Grumman (US) and TAI (Turkey).....I doubt Trump would cry over giving more work to US Suppliers.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 07:42
by Corsair1963
Honestly, Turkey is in a very poor position and both sides know it. Hell, just about every major Weapons Program in Turkey has a large portion of Western Components. So, a break between Turkey and the West. (i.e. Europe & US) Would be nothing short of "CRUSHING" to the Turkish Defense Sector and Military!


If, Erdoğan is truly afraid of another coup attempt. This is not the way to avoiding one! :shock:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 15:52
by talkitron
I would like to see a detailed analysis of the role of Turkish firms as subcontractors in the F-35 program. I hope some journalists will be working on this article. While we are at it, we might cut Canada’s share of the program for not buying any planes yet.

It is possible Erdogan and and Trump will make up, but it is difficult as there is no sign Gulen will be extradited and otherwise there is not much face-saving stuff the US can offer Turkey if Trump demands both the pastor and the cancellation of the S-400 deal with Russia (to please Congress more than himself). Erdogan is just as prideful as Trump.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 15:58
by steve2267
talkitron wrote:I would like to see a detailed analysis of the role of Turkish firms as subcontractors in the F-35 program. I hope some journalists will be working on this article. While we are at it, we might cut Canada’s share of the program for not buying any planes yet.


While I share your sentiments with regards to Canada, the Canucks have been paying the funds required to remain a partner nation. I seem to recall a news story about the Canadians paying hundreds of millions of dollars as a partner nation. Kind of odd that they pay to remain a partner, yet haven't ordered any yet, and the press seems to NOT raise a ruckus over these payments.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 16:12
by bojack_horseman
Ridiculous decision IMO.

Throwing a spanner into the very delicately distributed global supply chain.

So, when the Tukish components halt.... assembly halts?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 16:32
by marsavian
The Turks will back down having had a small taste of how cold the wind can blow outside of a friendly Western ecosystem. The reality that has to dawn on Erdogan is that everyone in that ecosystem has to play nice with the big dog, USA, in that system or face the consequences. It's nothing personal as many countries are finding with the economic nationalist Trump at the helm. Give it a few months and the Pastor will be freed by their 'independent' judiciary and S-400 will be cancelled for Patriots and F-35 will then be released because ultimately F-35 is too important for the aggressive foreign policy Erdogan is very fond of. Otherwise it's best we find out now before F-35 is released to them if the Turks want to have a maverick foreign policy which has no care for traditional alliances. Time to choose Sultan baby !

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 17:48
by sferrin
bojack_horseman wrote:Ridiculous decision IMO.

Throwing a spanner into the very delicately distributed global supply chain.

So, when the Tukish components halt.... assembly halts?


Other companies will be more than happy to pick up that work.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 18:43
by bojack_horseman
sferrin wrote:Other companies will be more than happy to pick up that work.


When?

Today?
Tomorrow?

These things don't happen quickly..

This could well grind production to a halt while alternate suppliers are tendered, contracts awarded, components made & tested etc etc.

Right when production was gaining major traction.

All over some stupid political stunt

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 19:05
by talkitron
steve2267 wrote:While I share your sentiments with regards to Canada, the Canucks have been paying the funds required to remain a partner nation. I seem to recall a news story about the Canadians paying hundreds of millions of dollars as a partner nation. Kind of odd that they pay to remain a partner, yet haven't ordered any yet, and the press seems to NOT raise a ruckus over these payments.


That might seem like a lot of money in Canada, but it is not in the US. :D

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 19:52
by durahawk
bojack_horseman wrote: All over some stupid political stunt


Potential exploitation of some of our most advanced military technology is not a political stunt. Turkey operating the S-400 and F-35, no doubt with Russian advisors, will not produce positive outcomes for either the US or other program partners.

Lockheed has seen this coming for months. I'd be willing to bet they have contingency plans for the loss of the Turkish subcontractors by now.

Will this cause a disruption? Absolutely... but I would not cripple the program, there is far too much money yet to be made.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 22:24
by marsavian
bojack_horseman wrote:
sferrin wrote:Other companies will be more than happy to pick up that work.


When?

Today?
Tomorrow?

These things don't happen quickly..

This could well grind production to a halt while alternate suppliers are tendered, contracts awarded, components made & tested etc etc.

Right when production was gaining major traction.

All over some stupid political stunt


It's not a stunt, Turkey has to make a strategic choice now and decide its future allegiances. Is it with the West as it has been for 66 years when it was previously bullied by Russia and joined NATO as a result or is it as a fully independent Middle East Muslim state with very close ties to Russia with generally antagonistic feelings to the West and Israel. It has about a year to decide. Choose wisely.

The delay was quantified earlier in the thread by Mattis ...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... it-450558/

“Removing Turkey could trigger a supply chain disruption for the US military and our partners, as well as increase other program costs,” Mattis says in his letter to the House Armed Services Committee Chairman on 7 July. “If the Turkish supply chain was disrupted today, it would result in an aircraft production break delaying delivery of 50-75 F-35s, and would take approximately 18-24 months to re-source parts and recover.”

In co-ordination with Northrop Grumman, the main fuselage manufacturer for the F-35, Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactures and assembles centre fuselages, produces composite skins and weapon bay doors, and fibre placement composite air inlet ducts. In total, ten different Turkish firms make parts for every F-35 manufactured.

Turkey plans to purchase 100 F-35As, with its first batch of 14 already contracted. A total of 30 are scheduled for delivery by the end of 2022.


I don't think it will go that far but if Turkey wants to become Iran Mk 2 best it does it now and we know where we stand before handing over our best military technology.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 06:35
by element1loop
The bottom line is the Lira has been on a slow downwards trend (i.e. losing buying power, increasing the price of all imports, fanning domestic inflation) since Erdogan gained national power from mid last decade. All that has occurred is that as Erdogan has become more and more antagonistic, and garnered more and more state power, the Lira's decline has accellerated.

This is a long-term ('secular' ... hmm) trend, and as long as Turkey remains aligned with the "Erdogan & Sons™" company trajectory, the Lira and domestic economy, and crash 'n burn domestic stock market, is not coming back up again by much.

In other words, a sustained and now rapid collapse of the Lira means Erdogan will increasingly struggle to afford ANY imported goods, especially heavy SAMS or new foreign aircraft, from ANY source.

If he gets any of these they will have to be a 'gift', not a purchase, nor a foreign loan--Turkey can't realistically do either, until the Lira reverts to a longer-term average with respect to the USD.

So it is no longer just a matter of resolving a rift between Turkey, NATO and Washington. They could resolve that and still Turkey's Turkey has priced himself out of obtaining significant F-35s, while the compounding affect on the Lira's decline lingers (and many other econmic factors are consequently played out).

Which trashes the national reserves, shrinks state revenue, strongly amps inflation, continues the protracted economic downturn, deepens the already deep stock market collapse, unhinges banks, shrinks asset prices, disrupts industry and production, freezes credit, devastates business and employment, undermines national security--and these are just the foreseeables and actuals.

In other words, the rift with Washington (and the silly claims of "economic warfare") are just another symptom--as this is not the cause, and nor is its resolution a cure-all for what is dragging Turkey and its currency down.

It's not really about S400s, F-35s, Gulen (an excuse) or a Pastor. Those are just pointy-out topical bits snagging and characterising the underlaying secular decline (pun intended) in Turkish leadership quality and its gyrating relationships. Which has simply become more acute, as Erdogan, family and sychophants, took on more and more power, especially of late. Money has voted with its feet about these developments because investor Sovereign Risk had exploded as a steady cumulative result of it all. And the Consitutional changes that have now embedded 'Erdogan & Sons™' has baked this process in, so 12 more months will not be enough to unwind the snake that's choaking Turkey, which is a domestic snake not a foreign snake. The external actions are a belated response, not a cause. He was given plenty of slack for years prior.

IMHO, the F-35 is not going to Turkey until that factor is fully sorted out, by the Turks themselves, so plan accordingly.

[PS: I hope all of the people wrongfully imprisoned get out, soon, and frankly that's a bigger factor in this mess, and a much better and less selfish reason (and lever) to take Erdogan to the woodshed than the other good reasons of an imprisoned Pastor and S400 buy, etc. Probably said too much here, sorry if I did, but that's MHO of where the F-35 issue fits in to it. i.e Erdogan will not be able to afford them, so they are off the table--move on.]

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 06:44
by Corsair1963
I also see little reason for the US to provide New F-35's to Turkey. Before they sort out this mess. As we can easily absorb the additional F-35's. While, giving the work to other partners. In short we have little to no reason to bow to Turkey and every reason not too!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 06:50
by XanderCrews
element1loop wrote:The bottom line is the Lira has been on a slow downwards trend (i.e. losing buying power, increasing the price of all imports, fanning domestic inflation) since Erdogan gained national power from mid last decade. All that has occurred is that as Erdogan has become more and more antagonistic, and garnered more andnmore state power, the Lira's decline has accellerated.

This is a long-term ('secular' ...lol) trend, and as long as Turkey remains aligned with the "Erdogan & Sons" company trajectory, the Lira and domestic economy and crash 'n burn domestic stock market is not coming back up.

In other words, a sustained and now rapid collapse of the Lira means Erdogan will increasingly struggle to afford ANY imported goods, especially heavy SAMS or new foreign aircraft, from ANY source.

If he gets any of them, they will have to be a 'gift', not a purchase, or a foreign loan--Turkey can't realistically do either until the Lira reverts to a longer term average with respect to the USD.

So it is no longer just a matter of resolving a rift between Turkey, NATO and Washington. They could resolve that and still Turkey's Turkey has priced himself out of obtaining significant F-35s while the compounding affect on the Lira's decline lingers (and many other econmic factors play out).

Which trashes national reserves, shrinks state revenue, strongly amps inflation, continues protracted economic downturn, deepens the already deep stock market collapse, unhinges banks, shrinks asset prices, disrupts industry and production, freezes credit, devastates business and employment, undermines national security--those are just to foreseeables.

In other words, the rift with Washington (and the silly claims of economic warfare) are just another symptom--this is not the cause, nor is its resolution the cure-all for what is dragging Turkey and its currency down.

It's not about really about S400s, F-35s, Gulen (the excuse) or a Pastor, those are just pointy-out topical bits snagging and characterising the underlaying secular decline (pun intended) in Turkish leadership quality. Which has simply become more acute as Erdogan, family and sychophants took on more and more power.

Money has voted with its feet about those developments, because investor Sovereign Risk exploded as a result of it. And the Consitutional changes that embedded 'Erdogan & Sons™' has baked it in, so 12 more months will not be enough to unwind the snake that's choaking Turkey, which is a domestic snake not a foreign one.

IMHO, the F-35 is not going to Turkey until that is fully sorted out by the Turks themselves, so plan accordingly.

[PS: I hope all of the people wrongfully imprisoned get out soon, and frankly that's a bigger factor in this mess, and a much better and less selfish reason (and lever) to take Erdogan to the woodshed, than the good reasons of an imprisoned Pastor and S400 buy. Probably said too much, sorry if I did, but that's MHO of where the F-35 issue fits into this.]


I knew a Sgt, USAF who was stationed in Turkey for 4 years. I expected to hear dazzling stories of where east meets west, and exotic locations. He basically knocked all the romanticism out of me when he said "Its just like Mexico" Looks like its trending that way even more now. Oh well. The world needs more crapholes I guess.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 06:55
by Corsair1963
All the more reason not to provide them with F-35's!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 11:58
by popcorn

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 14:12
by spazsinbad
This would be the ASPI Turkey Marcus Hellyer article referred to in the article immediately above:
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/talki ... -the-f-35/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 18:55
by basher54321
645x450-turkish-fighter-pilot-carries-out-first-flight-in-us-with-f-35-jet-1535483091630.jpg
Turkish pilot first F-35 Flight



Maj. Halit Oktay became the first pilot from Turkey to fly on the F-35A on Aug. 29


Turkish fighter pilot carried out the first flight in the United States with one of Turkey's new F-35 jets on August 28, Turkish Armed Forces said in a statement released late Tuesday.

Early July, the Pentagon said Turkish pilots and maintenance personnel were being trained on the F-35 fighter jet in the state of Arizona.

Late June, Turkey took delivery of its first F-35 fighter jet at a ceremony in Forth Worth, Texas.

Turkey and the U.S. have recently been at loggerheads over the former's purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems and the arrest of terror-linked American pastor Andrew Brunson.

The Trump administration had decided to delay the delivery of the warplane to Turkey, citing the pastor's case and later its purchase from the Russians.

In early August, U.S. President Donald Trump approved a defense budget law delaying delivery of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jets to Turkey. An amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), quickly approved by Congress, prohibits F-35 sales to Turkey until the Pentagon issues a report on Turkish-American relations in 90 days.

Still, the F-35 Joint Program Office announced on Aug. 16 that it would continue to execute current program plans with all partners, including Turkey, and to abide by any future policy guidelines.

Turkey has been in the F-35 program since 1999, and the Turkish defense industry has taken an active role in the production of aircraft and invested $1.25 billion in the aircraft's development. Alp Aviation, AYESAŞ, Kale Aviation, Kale Pratt & Whitney and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) have been producing parts for the first F-35 fighter jet. AYESAŞ is also the sole provider of two key components of the plane.

Turkey plans to purchase 100 F-35 fighter jets in the coming years. Out of 100 aircraft, 30 have been approved. The country took delivery of its first F-35 fighter jet at a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas, on June 21. The first F-35 aircraft delivered is also the first fifth-generation fighter jet to enter the Turkish Air Force Command inventory.

https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/201 ... h-f-35-jet

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 23:18
by spazsinbad
Navy Builds Up to F-35C IOT&E; First Turkish F-35 Pilot Flies
30 Aug 2018 David Donald

"...Meanwhile, despite the temporary block on deliveries of F-35As to the Turkish air force that the U.S. government implemented earlier in the month, and despite erroneous reports that Turkish pilot training had been suspended, on August 28 the country’s first pilot to fly the F-35 took to the skies at Luke AFB, Arizona. Turkish ground technicians are also receiving training on maintenance and servicing. The initial pair of F-35As that was handed over to the Turkish air force in June was delivered to Luke AFB for training. Under pre-embargo plans, the third and fourth aircraft were also to be retained in the United States."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ilot-flies

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 16:52
by spazsinbad
No Change Expected in Turkey's F-35 Program Until Mattis Submits Report
26 Sep 2018 Oriana Pawlyk

"Two F-35A Joint Strike Fighters are still slated to be delivered to Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, for the Turkish pilot training program unless new direction from the Defense Department, expected in November, prohibits the move, Military.com has learned. Luke is expected to receive two more of the fifth-generation fighters for the program in early 2019, according to an industry source familiar with the matter. The base already has two jets for the training program.

Furthermore, the first two fifth-generation fighters are still on track to fly to Turkey sometime between July and September next year, barring any new evidence from Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo that the transfer must be indefinitely blocked per the 2019 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), the source said.

For now, "there has been no change to our contract or our relationship with Turkey as a partner, with Turkey as a supplier. Nothing's changed," said Greg Ulmer, vice president and general manager of the F-35 program at Lockheed Martin Corp....

..."The decision relative to the NDAA language is really government-to-government. They have to decide," Ulmer said. "Business is normal; [we're] still supporting the program."...

...Luke personnel also emphasized that the training course has not shifted or changed. "There has been no change to training or aircraft delivery at Luke Air Force Base," said 56th Fighter Wing spokeswoman Maj. Rebecca Heyse during a phone call. "Pending official guidance from [the Office of the Secretary of Defense], there has been no change to the Turkish pilot training or aircraft delivery."...

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... eport.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2018, 03:28
by popcorn
F-35 production could be set back 18-24 months should Turkey retaliate against a F-35 embargo and withhold needed components for the jet.

https://www-dailysabah-com.cdn.ampproje ... eport-says

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 07:04
by KamenRiderBlade
Maybe we should create a parallel supply chain ready for the parts that Turkey is creating in secret.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 09:58
by marsavian
Probably being already done. It was hinted at by a LMT exec in a video interview saying something about having to be ready for situations and contingencies.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 10:18
by spazsinbad
KamenRiderBlade wrote:Maybe we should create a parallel supply chain ready for the parts that Turkey is creating in secret.

I'm guessing you mean "a parallel supply chain in secret"? Turkey otherwise makes F-35 parts in public.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 10:51
by weasel1962
I think its more LM setting up a parallel supply chain in case Turkey can't (or don't want to) supply their parts... or at least that's my reading. Don't think its that simple.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 18:12
by blindpilot
weasel1962 wrote:I think its more LM setting up... Don't think its that simple.


Agree it's not that simple.

If I am not mistaken, Lockheed already controls/orders the raw material parts of the entire supply chain. (for a display, the glass etc.) They do that to maximize bulk pricing. All suppliers to some extent are more assembly plants than vertical manufacturing (like the railroad-steel monopolies of old, which even owned the coal mines). While that's not 100% true it does give an insight into the supply chain process. So Lockheed can cut off/renegotiate/redirect (contract issues aside for the moment) the raw materials to any parts manufacturer. They manage all of that.

So even sole sources are integrated into the supply chain in ways we don't always see. It's a bit messy to sort this out in real production. A problem with bulk titanium or chip supplies from one place can impact a "part production" order on another continent.

As I understand it, Lockheed actually buys(contracts and pays for) these raw material level products, delivered to a "parts manufacturer." Thus the "parts" for the "parts" are already in complete Lockheed control. (It's the only reason a supplier can make the part at a given price point) Those raw material suppliers ship where Lockheed tells them to ship, or they don't get paid. Lockheed also controls via quality control systems much of the machinery (robots etc.) used to make systems. They often even buy and supervise installation of the tools. The economic benefit to a supplier is often little more than the labor and infrastructure costs/margins.

All of this is to say that much preparatory planning can be done behind the scenes without impacting or even visibility to the existing supply chain. But if Mattis says 18-24 months, that is probably a real estimate. The best they could do is to try and do some of those months of work ahead of a base schedule. Lockheed could do much of that unseen. That means if an aircraft is scheduled to ship to Turkey in 12 months, there is ... at best .. still a potential 6 month impact to the delivery schedule.

Yeah it's not that simple, but Lockheed still controls a lot of the issues/complications.

FWIW,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 05:28
by element1loop
blindpilot wrote:All of this is to say that much preparatory planning can be done behind the scenes without impacting or even visibility to the existing supply chain. But if Mattis says 18-24 months, that is probably a real estimate. The best they could do is to try and do some of those months of work ahead of a base schedule. Lockheed could do much of that unseen. That means if an aircraft is scheduled to ship to Turkey in 12 months, there is ... at best .. still a potential 6 month impact to the delivery schedule.

Yeah it's not that simple, but Lockheed still controls a lot of the issues/complications.

FWIW,
BP


Disruptive, but if all the existing airframes are bought to 3F in that time-frame that will help to hedge a delay and still deliver rising F-35 fleet combat airframes and deliverable capability.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 05:37
by marsavian
I suspect the Turks will still produce the parts even after being denied the F-35 just for economic reasons. The transition away from Turkish involvement may in the end be quite smooth because after all they are still technically a NATO ally even if they want to be more independent and free thinking in their actions.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 17:53
by steve2267
When I worked in the launch vehicle biz, we were always cognizant of single-points-of-failure and did our best to avoid them if at all possible. One of the reasons for the creation of United Launch Alliance was to avoid a single-point-of-failure in the US Government launch capability -- if Delta IV had an uh-oh, Atlas V could still launch payloads whilst an investigation discovered and corrected whatever went wrong on the other vehicle.

I would like to think the LM executives, being smart folks (generally) and being paid to think about these sorts of things, have some contingency plans figured out for replacing any single supplier for all the bits on F-35 if something goes hiccup. IMO, 18-24 interruption in production if the Turks have to be cut out is unacceptable, especially since this problem has been percolating -- in public -- for the past 12+ months. To me, if that is the case, some executive(s) have not been doing their job. But what do I know... I just crunched numbers.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 21:46
by marsavian
Pastor being freed for economic relief.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... -us-pastor

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 00:10
by lamoey
steve2267 wrote:When I worked in the launch vehicle biz, we were always cognizant of single-points-of-failure and did our best to avoid them if at all possible. One of the reasons for the creation of United Launch Alliance was to avoid a single-point-of-failure in the US Government launch capability -- if Delta IV had an uh-oh, Atlas V could still launch payloads whilst an investigation discovered and corrected whatever went wrong on the other vehicle.

I would like to think the LM executives, being smart folks (generally) and being paid to think about these sorts of things, have some contingency plans figured out for replacing any single supplier for all the bits on F-35 if something goes hiccup. IMO, 18-24 interruption in production if the Turks have to be cut out is unacceptable, especially since this problem has been percolating -- in public -- for the past 12+ months. To me, if that is the case, some executive(s) have not been doing their job. But what do I know... I just crunched numbers.


Normal monetary thinking does not apply to would be dictators, as the Turkish economy and currency is a living proof of these days. They may just as well stopp delivering parts to blackmail the rest of us.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Oct 2018, 07:52
by spazsinbad
I'm hoping the full THANKSgiving comes down on this turkey:
Turkey defense minister announces timeline for S-400 deployment
[size=85]26 Oct Burak Ege Bekdil2018

"ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey will begin locally deploying the Russian-made S-400 air defense architecture in October 2019, Turkish Defence Minister Hulusi Akar said Thursday....

...Akar said Turkey faces a missile threat — without naming the origin of the threat — adding that “we must counter that threat.”...

...The contract involves the acquisition of one S-400 system with an option to purchase a second system....

...Turkish defense procurement bureaucracy says the $2.5 billion S-400 system would be operated by Turkish personnel and would be supported by a locally developed identification friend or foe, or IFF, system. Turkey wants to make the S-400 a standalone system it can operate with its own source codes, including the IFF.

Turkey will have to operate the S-400 on a standalone basis because the system cannot be made interoperable with NATO and U.S. assets deployed in Turkish territory...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/land/2018/1 ... eployment/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2018, 21:42
by marsavian
Pentagon sends Congress report on Turkey's F-35 program. Pentagon may have an 'unclassified update' about report next week, says spokesman.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/penta ... am/1313801

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2018, 11:57
by spazsinbad
No ‘devastating impact’ to F-35 industrial base if Turkey removed from program, says US Air Force official
04 Dec 2018 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — A potential decision by the United States to remove Turkey from the F-35 program over its purchase of the Russian S-400 missile system may have only minimal impact on the fighter jet’s industrial base, a senior U.S. Air Force official said Tuesday.

President Donald Trump has yet to determine what steps the Defense Department may take if Turkey moves forward with the S-400 buy. However, Heidi Grant, the Air Force’s deputy undersecretary for international affairs, said Pentagon analysis shows there won’t be a catastrophe if Turkey is forced from the program.

“While it will have some impact on the F-35 program, I don’t think it’s going to be any type of devastating impact if … there’s a policy decision that they are no longer a partner,” Grant told reporters in a Dec. 4 roundtable interview just weeks before she puts a cap on a 16-year career with the Air Force....

...The unclassified summary of the report, ['report' not mentioned so make something up in your mind] [found a seven day old 'slow tony jobbie' here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... agon-warns ] obtained last week by Bloomberg, restated that Turkey may face expulsion from the F-35 program if the S-400 deal goes through. That outcome could influence the U.S. government’s relationship with other partner nations that have also signed on to buy the S-400, such as India or Qatar....

...Grant said she was unaware how long it would take to replace Turkey’s contributions to the F-35 program or what proposed solutions the Trump administration is offering to the country. But she fears it may be too late at this point to persuade the Turkish government to abandon the S-400 deal....

...Despite political friction between the United States and Turkey, the relationship between the countries’ militaries continues to be solid, Grant said. “Like any country, we’re going to have what I consider policy ups and downs, leadership changes at the political level that can change a relationship. But as far as the mil-to-mil relationship right now, it remains strong. They’ve been an F-35 partner since 2002, and a significant industrial-base [partner].”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/12 ... cial-says/

Turkey’s F-35 Role at Risk If It Buys From Russia, Pentagon Warns
29 Nov 2018 Anthony Capaccio

" - Clash is over plans to buy Russian S-400 anti-aircraft system
" - Unclassified summary of classified report sent to Congress

Turkey risks expulsion from the U.S.-led F-35 program, the world’s costliest weapons project, if its government takes delivery of an advanced Russian anti-aircraft system, according to an unclassified summary of a Pentagon report sent to Congress....

Congressional Pressure
A longer classified report examining U.S.-Turkish relations, including the F-35, was required in this year’s defense policy bill at the insistence of Senators Thom Tillis, a North Carolina Republican, and Jeanne Shaheen, a New Hampshire Democrat. The legislation directed that no F-35 deliveries be made to Turkey until the report was delivered, which it was earlier this month....

‘Serious Vulnerabilities’
Shaheen said in a statement that she was “pleased by the timeliness and comprehensive nature” of the Pentagon’s full, classified report, but she urged the Defense Department to “share this information with the American people.” “Limiting the availability of this report to a select group was not the intent of the law that Senator Tillis and I wrote,” she said.

As lawmakers review what steps to take now, Shaheen said it’s critical to keep in mind that the S-400 “poses serious vulnerabilities to NATO’s airspace and will present additional intelligence issues for the United States and other NATO allies, including Turkey.”..."

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... agon-warns

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Dec 2018, 21:26
by spazsinbad
Japan OKs Extra F-35 Buy in Fighter Re-equipment Plans :doh: [YES BUT VIRGINIA there is also 'TURKEY STUFFING']
19 Dec 2018 David Donald

"...Another nation has also emerged this month as a potential operator for the F-35B STOVL aircraft. Turkey’s President Erdogan announced during a rally that Turkey will receive 120 F-35s, an increase over the 100-aircraft requirement previously announced. The additional aircraft could be F-35Bs, in which Turkey has shown keen interest as part of its naval ambitions to operate two aircraft carriers.

To date, Turkey has taken delivery of two F-35As, in which Turkish pilots are training in the U.S., and will take delivery of two more in March, according to defense minister, Hulusi Akar. But the full implementation of the Turkish order has been halted due to U.S. CAATSA sanctions following Turkey’s order for the Russian S-400 SAM system. Turkish officials remain sanguine that the issue will be resolved and that F-35 deliveries will be reinstated...."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ment-plans

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2018, 07:06
by element1loop
No comment. :mrgreen:

--

US approves $3.5 billion Patriot missile sale to Turkey

State Department says sale will increase Turkish defensive capabilities, to guard against hostile aggression and shield NATO allies who might train and operate within its borders

19 December 2018

WASHINGTON — The United States said Wednesday it approved the sale of $3.5 billion in missiles to Turkey, offering an ultimatum after US outrage over the NATO ally’s plans to buy from Russia.

The State Department said it had informed Congress of plans to sell Turkey a Patriot package that includes 80 Patriot missiles, and 60 PAC-3 missile interceptors and related equipment. ...

“It is important that NATO countries procure military equipment that is interoperable with NATO systems. A Russian system would not meet that standard,” he said. The announcement comes hours after US President Donald Trump said that the United States had defeated the Islamic State group in neighboring Syria — leading to the withdrawal of US troops, who had effectively limited Turkey’s campaign against Kurdish fighters.

There was no immediate indication that the two announcements were linked, although Trump has made clear that arms sales are a top priority for him. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Monday vowed to “remove” the Kurdish fighters if necessary, as he said he had spoken by telephone with Trump and agreed on cooperation in Syria.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-approv ... to-turkey/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2018, 09:52
by popcorn
Has Turkey accepted the US ultimatum? Someone is going to be surprised in any case...

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/12/ ... man--Pskov

‘Russia to fulfill S-400 sale to Turkey despite Patriot deal’

The Kremlin says there is no link between Turkey’s possible purchase of US Patriot surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems and that of the advanced Russian-built S-400 air defense missile system, saying Moscow is in the process of fulfilling the terms of the deal with Ankara.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2018, 15:06
by steve2267
THAT would be awkward should Turkey proceed with purchasing S400 AND Patriot.

But what if the Patriot sale included a deal that ALL S400 equipment, manuals, etc find its way to the USA? And the US reimburse Ankara for it? Such an agreement would be a TRUMPian deal. And Dreamland gets all sorts of new toys to terrorize, errr train, Fallon and Nellis attendees. The Gyrenes would even be allowed up from Miramar to learn to terrorize, errr take out, S400 sites...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Dec 2018, 15:38
by bring_it_on
That's unlikely to happen. What is also unlikely to happen is that they get Patriot while also getting the S-400. I think this was planned as a counter offer with the ball now in Turkey's court. Hopefully better senses in Turkey should prevail and they come to the realization that they being part of NATO will hardly have a capable and usable air-defense system if they are called upon to defend NATO against its primary military adversary who just happens to be the designer of their system.This was largely seen as a political play by Erdogan following Putin planting himself in Syria and after the downing of his fighter and the shooting of his ambassador in Turkey.

It would be quite foolish for us to be having a debate to reevaluate turkey's presence in our high end defense program because of their close proximity to Russia under Erdogan, and because of them acquiring the S-400, and then to turn around and sweeten the deal by adding yet another sophisticated military system on top of that. This was quite likely an alternative floated by the Pentagon/DOS to pull Turkey away from the Russian orbit. Let's see if this works. But Putin has a good pulse of Middle East nations and can shake them down by using his Military in the region so it would be interesting to see what price in Syria Turkey perceives it would have to pay should it cancel the S-400 purchase at the 11th hour.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2018, 13:02
by madrat
Turkey got Trump to walk away from Syria. Is this a ploy to next isolate the Kurds?

Erdogan wants the Islamic version of Armageddon to unfold in his lifetime. His past unofficial support of ISIS by his government will never be forgotten. Quite frankly, I think we are better off letting him lean Russian and abandon his a$$. Supporting a regime like his that oppresses the population using a sub-theme of religion is just another form of forced democratic socialism not unlike the old Iron Curtain. We've allowed Turkey to become the focal point of the Islamic rebirth that has smothered the remaining infidel (christian, Sikh, secular, etc.) populations surrounding the cradle of civilization. Driving infidels out of Islamic territory is key to the prophetic vision of this a-hole. They are fomenting a very intolerant community.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2018, 22:18
by vilters
What is more dangerous then a dictator?
An armed dictator with an indoctrinated population willing to fight for something stupid like a religion.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2018, 03:10
by spazsinbad
Turkish pilots to begin training for F-35B fighter jets
25 Dec 2018 AHVAL

"Two Turkish pilots currently serving in the Naval Forces have been chosen for F-35B fighter jet training, Turkey’s Kokpit website reported. The pilots, currently working with CN235 and ATR72 aircraft, are set to arrive at the Second Main Jet Base Command located in Turkey’s western town on Çiğli in İzmir as Turkey braces for the delivery of more than 100 Lockheed Martin-produced F-35 jets to Turkey by 2020.

The pair will head to the United States for further training after completing their initial training in Çiğli on the single-seat, single-engined, all-weather stealth multirole fighters, the website noted....

...Ankara has contributed one billion dollars towards Turkey’s planned acquisition of 100 advanced F-35 stealth fighters. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, however, on December 16 said that Turkey will acquire a total of 120 fighter jets, instead of 100, and it is assumed that 20 of those jets will be the F-35B variation...."

Source: https://ahvalnews.com/f-35/turkish-pilo ... ghter-jets

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 00:31
by spazsinbad
Turkey refuses to cancel S-400 order, risking F-35 delivery again
10 Jan 2019 Garrett Reim

"Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said his country would consider buying Raytheon-made Patriot missiles from the US government, but would not cancel its order of S-400 anti-aircraft missiles from Russia as a condition of the deal....

...However, in a recent interview with Turkish broadcaster NTV Cavusoglu says that cancelling the S-400 order is off the table. “The S-400 agreement is already a finished deal,” he says. “We can deal with the United States for the Patriot, but if it's about the S-400, no.”

Turkey is a partner in the development and manufacturing of the F-35. In coordination with Northrop Grumman, the main fuselage manufacturer for the F-35, Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactures and assembles centre fuselages, produces composite skins and weapon bay doors, and air inlet ducts. In total, 10 different Turkish firms make parts for every F-35.

In a letter sent to the House Armed Services Committee Chairman in July, former Secretary of Defense James Mattis said that removing Turkey’s parts manufacturers from the aircraft supply chain could delay delivery of 50-75 stealth fighters for up to 18-24 months."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -d-454939/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 01:49
by wrightwing
bring_it_on wrote:That's unlikely to happen. What is also unlikely to happen is that they get Patriot while also getting the S-400. I think this was planned as a counter offer with the ball now in Turkey's court. Hopefully better senses in Turkey should prevail and they come to the realization that they being part of NATO will hardly have a capable and usable air-defense system if they are called upon to defend NATO against its primary military adversary who just happens to be the designer of their system.This was largely seen as a political play by Erdogan following Putin planting himself in Syria and after the downing of his fighter and the shooting of his ambassador in Turkey.

It would be quite foolish for us to be having a debate to reevaluate turkey's presence in our high end defense program because of their close proximity to Russia under Erdogan, and because of them acquiring the S-400, and then to turn around and sweeten the deal by adding yet another sophisticated military system on top of that. This was quite likely an alternative floated by the Pentagon/DOS to pull Turkey away from the Russian orbit. Let's see if this works. But Putin has a good pulse of Middle East nations and can shake them down by using his Military in the region so it would be interesting to see what price in Syria Turkey perceives it would have to pay should it cancel the S-400 purchase at the 11th hour.


Perhaps adding THAAD, to the PAC 2 GEM-T, and PAC 3 MSE, might be the ticket, to nix the S-400 deal.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 01:55
by marsavian
Turkey is still threatening to go after the Kurds even before the US has left. Seems a slow motion exit from NATO to me with F-35 eventually denied. Probably for the best as they seem intent on becoming Iran Mk.2.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2019, 02:44
by wrightwing
Perhaps sell the Kurds some advanced SAMs...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 00:20
by madrat
Walk away from Turkey already. They won't harmonize with European countries any more so than a Tiger would trade his stripes for spots.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 02:41
by marsavian
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTr ... 9510304768

Starting the long overdue pullout from Syria while hitting the little remaining ISIS territorial caliphate hard, and from many directions. Will attack again from existing nearby base if it reforms. Will devastate Turkey economically if they hit Kurds. Create 20 mile safe zone....


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-46859164

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jan 2019, 03:46
by optimist
It's pointless quoting Trump on the Kurds. He can change his position on a daily basis. There are even examples of him switching within a verbal paragraph. DACA is one that comes to mind, guns is another.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 14:09
by spazsinbad
Why Turkish F-35s are threat to US and NATO [BEST READ IT ALL AT SOURCE]
03 Feb 2019 Duncan Kellogg

"...[Turkeys] drive toward acquiring a fleet of F-35s represents a serious threat to American national security and technological superiority. Fortunately, this threat has not been ignored by American policymakers, though more can be done to secure American aerial supremacy.

Two main factors combine to make the sale of F-35s to Turkey a credible threat to American national security. First, on the immediate and kinetic front, Ankara’s continued efforts to acquire and deploy Russian-made integrated surface-to-air missile systems could give Russian engineers and radar systems operators key insight into the radar cross section and signals signature of the F-35. Second, on a broader and more strategically oriented scale, further supporting Turkey’s military advancement could backfire should the country slip further toward authoritarianism....

...Unfortunately, Congressional concern over Turkish F-35 acquisition might come too late to have a strong impact on Russian examination of the aircraft. Indeed, as President Erdogan continues to develop a stronger relationship with Moscow, pilots of the Turkish Air Force are training to fly American-made F-35s out of Arizona’s Luke Air Force Base. Moreover, the Turkish Air Force has already received its first F-35 and, though the plane remains in the United States, as Sebastien Roblin wrote in early September, it cannot be legally confiscated by the U.S. government. Should this specific aircraft successfully make its way to Turkey, it would likely be exposed to the prying sensors of the S-400....

Conclusion
In light of Turkey’s increased relationship with Russia, commitment to purchasing Russian weapon systems, and rapid devolution into a modern autocracy, Washington’s best interest lies in denying the sale of further F-35 airframes to Turkey. The F-35 is critical to the future of American and NATO air superiority. It cannot be used as just another political chip on the global chessboard. Should it be sold to Turkey without Ankara’s cancellation of the S-400 deal, the F-35 could be compromised before it even takes flight as America’s primary strike fighter."

Source: https://navalinstitute.com.au/why-turki ... -and-nato/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 14:47
by marsavian
It's not just Russian exposure, how more confidently belligerent would Turkey get against Israel or Greece if it had F-35s ? Trying to stop supposedly allied F-35s would be a physical nightmare of your own political making. It will probably boil down to whether Trump feels Turkey is still needed as a supposed bulwark against Iran and he probably feels it is but I really doubt Turkey's ultimate allegiances under Sultan Erdogan and would it flip to siding with Iran in some Muslim alliance in the future ? Bite the bullet and jettison Turkey from the West now before they do it themselves in a much stronger position.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 15:58
by madrat
We lost the responsible parties in the Turkish military after the failed coup attempt. The F-35 doesn't need to be there under that tyrant, Erdogan. He openly speaks anti-Semitic and is homicidal towards non-Turk minorities not like a Pol Pot. The guy is absolute desperate to hold power and has alignment not just with Russia, but China. No F-35 for Turkey.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Feb 2019, 16:31
by element1loop
Conclusion

In light of Turkey’s increased relationship with Russia, commitment to purchasing Russian weapon systems, and rapid devolution into a modern autocracy, Washington’s best interest lies in denying the sale of further F-35 airframes to Turkey. The F-35 is critical to the future of American and NATO air superiority. It cannot be used as just another political chip on the global chessboard. Should it be sold to Turkey without Ankara’s cancellation of the S-400 deal, the F-35 could be compromised before it even takes flight as America’s primary strike fighter.


^THIS

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 15:12
by mixelflick
I'm in favor of withholding the F_35 from Turkey.

What's the fascination with the S-400 anyway? It looks good in brochures/youtube videos, but honestly - does anyone think it's going to perform that good in the real world? What nation surrounding Turkey is going to launch massive airstrikes against it? You could argue the Jews/Israel, but they'd defeat the S-400 with 40 year old F-15/16's, jammers and drones. It'd just take a little longer.

This has to be about something more than buying a super duper SAM system...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 21:02
by johnwill
Also have concern with Turkey getting in bed with Russia and China in support for Maduro in Venezuela.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Feb 2019, 22:33
by optimist
mixelflick wrote:I'm in favor of withholding the F_35 from Turkey.

What's the fascination with the S-400 anyway? It looks good in brochures/youtube videos, but honestly - does anyone think it's going to perform that good in the real world? What nation surrounding Turkey is going to launch massive airstrikes against it? You could argue the Jews/Israel, but they'd defeat the S-400 with 40 year old F-15/16's, jammers and drones. It'd just take a little longer.

This has to be about something more than buying a super duper SAM system...

My guess is it's in case Israel has a dummy spit. Its use of US weapons would be limited in that case.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 02:43
by spazsinbad
From e-mail - perhaps soon a better English article will be available: [Turkish F-35Bs on Turkish LHDs - oh the horror] :devil:
"Description of the Turkish Navy TCG Thrace 14 Feb 2019
Naval Forces Command, a multi-purpose Amphibious Assault Ship (LHD) project describing an introductory article. In the statement made by the Turkish Naval Forces, ’The biggest ship to be owned by the Turkish Navy until now, the construction of the first ship of the LHD Class, ANADOLU, was started on 30 April 2016 at Sedef Shipyard. It is planned that ANADOLU will be put into service in the Turkish Navy in 2020. The construction of the second LHD TRAKYA [Thrace] will start in the near future. Inşa Thus, officially, the first time TCG TRAKYA was to be built was mentioned in such a precise manner. Source: DefenseSanayiST.com

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 05:29
by spazsinbad
I don't understand how this development was not reported earlier? Known before DELIVERY to Turkey NOT DUE until then?
Trump signs bill blocking transfer of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey
19 Feb 2019 Ilhan Tanir

"U.S. President Donald Trump on Friday signed a spending bill that blocks the transfer of the country's F-35 new generation fighter jets to Turkey. According to spending bill signed by Trump on Friday [15 Feb 2019] [ https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hjre ... s31enr.pdf ], delivery of the jets to Turkey will be blocked until the U.S. Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense submit an update to the report regarding the purchase of Turkey of the S–400 missile defense system from the Russian Federation....
https://ahvalnews.com/sites/default/fil ... 0_am_0.png

...The Congress asks U.S. secretaries to deliver the report by November 1, 2019...."

Source: https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-usa/trump- ... ets-turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 05:48
by Corsair1963
Sounds like Trump finally called Erdoğan bluff.... :|

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 07:35
by spazsinbad
Earlier on 15th was this repeated warning...
Pence: ‘We will not stand idly by’ as Turkey purchases S-400
16 Feb 2019 Tara Copp

"MUNICH — Vice President Mike Pence repeated warnings to Turkey not to proceed with the purchase of Russia’s S-400 missile defense system, a day after Turkey dismissed the first of two deadlines to cease with the planned sale. Pence, speaking at the Munich Security Conference, told attendees “we will not stand idly by while NATO allies purchase weapons from our adversaries. We cannot ensure the defense of the West if our allies grow dependent on the East."

The U.S. had set a Feb. 15 deadline for Turkey to respond and signal their intentions to cease with the sale, a U.S. official told Military Times....

...The S-400 sale would also impact Turkey’s role in the international development of the fifth generation Joint Strike Fighter. Earlier this year, the Pentagon reported to Congress on the impact to the F-35 program if it ditches Turkey as a partner. Turkey sources some of the parts for the program and that action could result in delays to the program if Turkey is no longer a contributor.

Congress still has to decide what action to take.…"

Source: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... ses-s-400/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 15:20
by marsavian
After their deal is refunded these ex-Turkish F-35s can then be transferred to the USAF to ease the ageing F-15C caused fighter gap ;). Giving F-35 to Turkey would be like when F-14 were given to Iran, a major problem for decades to come. With a bit of luck the stroppy Sultan will throw a tantrum and leave NATO too ;).

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2019, 23:09
by lbk000
Now get those construction facilities out of there too.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Feb 2019, 18:28
by noth
And attribute the engine overhaul center contract to the UK for example. That'll really rattle them.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 14:52
by mixelflick
Isn't this as big an offense/defense decision for Turkey, as much as it is a political one?

Getting the S-400 means beefing up its defensive capabilities. If you believe the brochures, dramatically so. But it doesn't buy them any offense. Forgoing the S-400 and going with the F-35 (and now they're talking B's too) would give them a more offensive capability (while it could also be used to perform DCA).

If I'm a Turkish military man, that seems like an easy decision.

Why are they so hell bent on S-400's?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 22:14
by steve2267
mixelflick wrote:Isn't this as big an offense/defense decision for Turkey, as much as it is a political one?

Getting the S-400 means beefing up its defensive capabilities. If you believe the brochures, dramatically so. But it doesn't buy them any offense. Forgoing the S-400 and going with the F-35 (and now they're talking B's too) would give them a more offensive capability (while it could also be used to perform DCA).

If I'm a Turkish military man, that seems like an easy decision.

Why are they so hell bent on S-400's?


That is the question. Why? And it immediately raises the question: Can the Turks be trusted? Seriously. And therein lies the dilemma.

You forgot to mention that the US has offered Turkey the Patriot missile system. So... why do they really need the S-400?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 01:27
by jakobs
mixelflick wrote:Why are they so hell bent on S-400's?

steve2267 wrote:So... why do they really need the S-400?


Maybe the S-400 will be operated by the most Erdogan-loyal troops? Being stand-alone from the rest of the air-defense it can be used to shoot down Turkish F-16's and helicopters in case of another coup.

Just speculating here, but given how Erdogan is acting I find it totally possible.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 02:14
by madrat
Not quite. Think offensive projection. We don't need someone playing tower defense in that neck of the woods.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 03:11
by spazsinbad
I thought this article had been posted here before - info about SOLE decision by Ergodan ALONE to purchase the S-400.
‘Shaking hands with the Russians’: Erdogan sole decision-maker on S-400 deal
30 Jul 2018 Burak Ege Bekdil

"ANKARA, Turkey — With his nearly limitless powers legislated after an election victory on June 24, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is the sole authority to decide whether Turkey should actually acquire the Russian-made S-400 air defense system, scrap that deal and go for a NATO system, or opt for both, officials and analysts said.

“This is not a conventional bureaucratic decision based on technological superiority and/or price,” a presidential aide said. “There have been a multitude of political deliberations since Turkey came to the point of shaking hands with the Russians....

...Turkey’s top defense procurement office confirmed in late December that Ankara and Moscow had finalized a contract for the acquisition and deployment of the Russian S-400 long-range air and anti-missile defense system on Turkish soil. If materialized, this will be the first time a NATO member state would be deploying the S-400.

The contract involves the acquisition of one S-400 system with an option to purchase a second system. Turkish officials have said the delivery of the S-400 was scheduled for the first quarter of 2020.

“The [S-400] contract has been signed, an advance payment has been made and a financing deal has been penned,” said the procurement office, then named the Undersecretariat for Defence Industries, or SSM. “The contract includes a joint development commitment and cooperation for technological know-how.”...

...SSM previously reported to the defense minister, but it now reports to Erdogan after presidential decrees reshuffled most of Turkish bureaucracy and several key offices came under direct control of the president. The office is now reflagged “Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries” and operates as a presidential office. “Under the new presidential system, only Erdogan could decide that the S-400 deal should be reviewed, put off or scrapped,” according to a London-based Turkey specialist. “So far there has not been any sign he should rethink his earlier decision.”...

...A procurement official said the S-400 acquisition would be a presidential decision involving almost no bureaucratic input. “It remains a political issue rather than a procurement issue. President Erdogan does not understand why Turkey’s NATO allies should be worried over the deployment of a non-NATO, defensive, not-offensive, system,” he said. “Unless … of course Turkey’s NATO allies think of attacking Turkey one day.”

Turkish defense procurement bureaucracy says the $2.5 billion S-400 system would be operated by Turkish personnel and supported by a locally developed identification friend or foe, or IFF, system. Turkey wants to make the S-400 a stand-alone system it can operate with its own source codes, including the IFF. Turkey will have to operate the S-400 on a stand-alone basis because it is not interoperable with NATO and U.S. assets deployed on Turkish territory.

Erdogan has repeatedly said Turkey was also interested in S-400 know-how as well as acquiring the Russian-made S-500 system, an advanced version now under development....

...NATO officials have warned of “necessary consequences” for Turkey should the alliance member purchase the Russian air defense system."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/smr/space-m ... -400-deal/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 12:38
by mixelflick
steve2267 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Isn't this as big an offense/defense decision for Turkey, as much as it is a political one?

Getting the S-400 means beefing up its defensive capabilities. If you believe the brochures, dramatically so. But it doesn't buy them any offense. Forgoing the S-400 and going with the F-35 (and now they're talking B's too) would give them a more offensive capability (while it could also be used to perform DCA).

If I'm a Turkish military man, that seems like an easy decision.

Why are they so hell bent on S-400's?


That is the question. Why? And it immediately raises the question: Can the Turks be trusted? Seriously. And therein lies the dilemma.

You forgot to mention that the US has offered Turkey the Patriot missile system. So... why do they really need the S-400?


Here's a thought...

The Patriot doesn't have near the umbrella range the S-400 does. Maybe they're looking to blanket the middle east and intimidate countries like Israel?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 14:58
by vilters
Ach, Erdoclown is so scared of a second "coup", he"ll buy ANYTHING (with taxpayers money) especially from Ruskyclown, just to piss off Israel.
A phone call to Trumpette from time to time, and all is well in hell.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 18:25
by durahawk
I think it's pretty clear that Erdogan sees the S-400 more valuable than the F-35 at this point. When you throw half of your fighter pilots in jail, and remain suspicious of the other half, this is a natural result.

The S-400 can be brought under centralized control of trusted agents, it's a classic self preservation move.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 20:49
by vilters
A Fighter pilot is able to think.

And that is not authorised under Erdoclown.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 15:16
by mixelflick
durahawk wrote:I think it's pretty clear that Erdogan sees the S-400 more valuable than the F-35 at this point. When you throw half of your fighter pilots in jail, and remain suspicious of the other half, this is a natural result.

The S-400 can be brought under centralized control of trusted agents, it's a classic self preservation move.


This is sounding more and more like F-14/Iran by the day.

Trump was right to deny delivery. At this point, S-400 or not I'd deny delivery. If they're that unstable and already have 1 foot in the radical Muslim (American hating) world, why chance it? Turkey can make due with a nice mix of S-400's and Russian jets.

They can ask India how that's worked out for 'em...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2019, 16:18
by rmr_22
I have heard that it is possible that Lokheed buys the F-35 Turks in American territory and sells them to Israel.Is this really possible?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 01:57
by Corsair1963
I am sure the US will keep producing the Turkish F-35's. Which, they will put into storage until the matter is resolved. :?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 02:03
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:Isn't this as big an offense/defense decision for Turkey, as much as it is a political one?

Getting the S-400 means beefing up its defensive capabilities. If you believe the brochures, dramatically so. But it doesn't buy them any offense. Forgoing the S-400 and going with the F-35 (and now they're talking B's too) would give them a more offensive capability (while it could also be used to perform DCA).

If I'm a Turkish military man, that seems like an easy decision.

Why are they so hell bent on S-400's?


Simple really...........Turkey want's access to Patriot Technology but the US won't grant it. So, they threaten to buy the S-400 instead. Thinking the US will relent in order to stop the sale of the latter.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 03:35
by blindpilot
mixelflick wrote:Isn't this ... Forgoing the S-400 and going with the F-35 (and now they're talking B's too) would give them a more offensive capability (while it could also be used to perform DCA).
If I'm a Turkish military man, that seems like an easy decision ..


As mentioned earlier ... they don't have any fighter pilots. They are all in prison ... except those in the US ... and like, .. they aren't going straight to jail, without collecting $200, coming from the poluted US influence? Yeah, sure, bet on that in Vegas!

They may want F-35s but if you got no pilots ... just have to use missiles I guess.

MHO,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 08:04
by Corsair1963
blindpilot wrote:
As mentioned earlier ... they don't have any fighter pilots. They are all in prison ... except those in the US ... and like, .. they aren't going straight to jail, without collecting $200, coming from the poluted US influence? Yeah, sure, bet on that in Vegas!

They may want F-35s but if you got no pilots ... just have to use missiles I guess.

MHO,
BP


What an "absurd" statement! I suppose you can back that up with credible sources??? :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 16:23
by steve2267
Corsair1963 wrote:
blindpilot wrote:
As mentioned earlier ... they don't have any fighter pilots. They are all in prison ... except those in the US ... and like, .. they aren't going straight to jail, without collecting $200, coming from the poluted US influence? Yeah, sure, bet on that in Vegas!

They may want F-35s but if you got no pilots ... just have to use missiles I guess.

MHO,
BP


What an "absurd" statement! I suppose you can back that up with credible sources??? :doh:


Knowing Blind the little that I do... and having met the man... I do not think this is an argument you can win. FWIW.

Also, not to provoke a fight or an argument in itself... what if his sources are
  1. Personal experience
  2. personal contacts with people actually involved in one form or another

How would someone cite those "sources", and would you accept them? Or are only "media sources" acceptable to you?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Feb 2019, 17:28
by blindpilot
Corsair1963 wrote:
blindpilot wrote:
As mentioned earlier ... they don't have any fighter pilots. They are all in prison ... They may want F-35s but if you got no pilots ... just have to use missiles I guess.
MHO,
BP


What an "absurd" statement! I suppose you can back that up with credible sources??? :doh:


Well "all in prison" is certainly hyperbole, but there are enough to severely cripple the capability of the force. My sources are first hand from those leaving Turkey. For obvious reasons, I can't cite them.
The reasons? well how about -
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/worl ... tions.html
But these are folks who loved Turkey, and her people, and expected to live out most of their lives there, and would never leave unless they feared for their families ... now they are in the US. Whatever that means.

Not sure what the controlled press is saying, but I know what the people in the streets of her cities and towns feel and fear. When a dictator becomes paranoid about a coup, the people quickly become paranoid of him. It can be a self fulfilling prophesy even when there was "nothing there" before.

Open source general reports continue even into this year
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News ... 546879733/ but it runs deeper than those reports, reflected in stories over the last few years
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/worl ... ule=inline

<sarc on> But sure, if you want to believe that all the Air Force fighter pilots have walked goose step like good little Hitler Youth, and none of them were scooped up in the crack down, and the military as whole continues uneffected, who am I to pop your balloon? <sarc off>
:doh: :doh: :roll:

FWIW,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 13:47
by marsavian
Final warning time :

U.S. issues stern warning of "grave consequences" for Turkey over purchase of S-400s

https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/us-issu ... ase-s-400s

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 20:10
by spazsinbad
Top US general in Europe: Don’t give Turkey F-35 if they buy Russian system
05 Mar 2019 Aaron Mehta & Joe Gould

"WASHINGTON — The top uniformed officer in NATO and the head of American forces in Europe said Tuesday that if Turkey goes through with its decision to buy a Russian air defense system, he would recommend the Pentagon refuse to give Ankara its planned purchase of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Testifying in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti said it would be his “best military advice" that sales to Turkey of the F-35 be cut, should that nation buy the S-400 air defense system.

“If they accept the S-400 to establish it in Turkey, there is first the issue that it’s not interoperable with NATO systems, nor is it interoperable inside of our integrated missile defense system. The second has to do with the F-35. It presents a problem to all of our aircraft, but specifically the F-35, I believe,” Scaparrotti said....

...But Scaparrotti’s statement is particularly notable, as he also serves as supreme allied commander of NATO. His comments come weeks after the Munich Security Conference, where U.S. Vice President Mike Pence warned Turkey that “we will not stand idly by while NATO allies purchase weapons from our adversaries. We cannot ensure the defense of the West if our allies grow dependent on the East."..."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... an-system/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 15:43
by mixelflick
Have to agree, no F-35 for Turkey.

Don't understand their reasoning, and preference for the S-400. Purely defensive weapons, which is all well and good. But the F-35 buys them not just defense, but whole lotta' offense too. They may not have offensive ambitions beyond going after the Kurds, but surely their NATO obligations would have them dropping bombs if another Iraq/Afghanistan type situation called for it?

Oh well, let them order the SU-57 instead. By the time it's ready for export, our 6th gen's will be flying..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 10:04
by spazsinbad
I wonder if EGO DANNO understands SWEDISH? The report here (English from ALERT5) in SWEDISH makes NO SENSE to me.

OOPS! This PDF is English - my brain gets twisted by SWEDENISH text: https://www.foi.se/rest-api/report/FOI-R--4651--SE

Because the initial PDF is bitter & twisted (or TWITTER & BISTED) it has been Reprinted PRN to be attached below....
Swedish Defence Research Agency says Russia’s A2/AD bubble can be defeated, Israelis have done it
07 Mar 2019 ALERT5

"FOI, the Swedish Defence Research Agency, has published a new paper “Bursting the Bubble? Russian A2/AD in the Baltic Sea Region: Capabilities, Countermeasures, and Implications.”

The FOI concluded in its report that Russia’s A2/AD capabilities “do not create any large, impenetrable bubble.”
The authors added that “analyzis of air operations over Syria likewise suggest that even late-model Russian manufactured air defence systems can be vulnerable to a range of countermeasures.” They cite Israel’s air strikes in Syria while under the threat of modern Russian air defense missile systems as an example.

The report also question the effectiveness of the S-400 air defense missile system’s 40N6 missile interceptor. Russia has not demonstrate that it has Cooperative Engagement Capability that is necessary for the 40N6 to hit its target at the maximum range of 400km."

PERHAPS SOMETHING IN ENGLISH HERE BUT?: https://www.foi.se/rapportsammanfattnin ... --4651--SE

MIRACULOUS - this ENGRISH Appeared:
"Abstract
States with the ability to use a combination of sensors and long-range missiles to prevent adversaries from operating in an exclusion zone, or "bubble", adjacent to their territory are said to possess anti-access/area denial (A2/AD) capabilities. This study examines Russia's A2/AD systems and their implications for the Baltic Sea region. Much has in recent years been made of Russia's new capabilities and the impact they might have on the ability of NATO member states to reinforce or defend the vulnerable Baltic states in case of crisis or war. On closer inspection, however, Russia's capabilities are not quite as daunting, especially if potential countermeasures are factored in. In particular, surface-to-air missile systems currently create much smaller A2/AD bubbles than is often assumed and a number of countermeasures are possible. Experiences from Syria also raise questions about the actual capabilities of such systems in combat, relative to their nominal capabilities. Anti-ship and anti-land systems pose a greater threat but, here too, countermeasures are available. The dynamics of this strategic vortex affect Sweden directly and indirectly. This is one of the reasons why Sweden's security is increasingly interlocked with that of its neighbours and of the transatlantic alliance."


Source: http://alert5.com/2019/03/07/swedish-de ... more-74494

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 10:05
by marsavian
Hard decisions will have to be made ...

Turkey buying Russian S-400s a done deal: Erdogan

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/turkey- ... an/1411168

Turkey’s president said Wednesday that Ankara has finalized an agreement on purchasing Russia’s S-400 missile defense system.

"We concluded the S-400 issue, signed a deal with the Russians, and will start co-production,” said Recep Tayyip Erdogan, speaking in a televised interview.

"Later, we may work with S-500s," the next generation system, Erdogan said.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 10:55
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:Hard decisions will have to be made ...

Turkey buying Russian S-400s a done deal: Erdogan

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/turkey- ... an/1411168

Turkey’s president said Wednesday that Ankara has finalized an agreement on purchasing Russia’s S-400 missile defense system.

"We concluded the S-400 issue, signed a deal with the Russians, and will start co-production,” said Recep Tayyip Erdogan, speaking in a televised interview.

"Later, we may work with S-500s," the next generation system, Erdogan said.



Sounds like the USAF/ANG have their F-15C replacement. :wink:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 11:02
by Corsair1963
marsavian wrote:Hard decisions will have to be made ...

Turkey buying Russian S-400s a done deal: Erdogan

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/turkey- ... an/1411168

Turkey’s president said Wednesday that Ankara has finalized an agreement on purchasing Russia’s S-400 missile defense system.

"We concluded the S-400 issue, signed a deal with the Russians, and will start co-production,” said Recep Tayyip Erdogan, speaking in a televised interview.

"Later, we may work with S-500s," the next generation system, Erdogan said.



Funny, that the story doesn't even mention the F-35. Nor, what Turkey is going to do when the US refuses to deliver them. Which, is all but inevitable at this point..... :?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 11:39
by marsavian
Well it's pretty obvious, either Su-57 or J-20 with their F-35 refund ;). At least it happened early enough for F-35 to be completely denied to them and yes the USAF can immediately reacquisition them ;).

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 14:52
by mixelflick
I sure hope the pilots from Turkey training on the F-35 aren't taught too much, if you know what I mean.

They may not be getting the F-35, but what safeguards can be taken to ensure its strength (and weaknesses) don't make it back to the land of the S-400?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 16:10
by commisar
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:Hard decisions will have to be made ...

Turkey buying Russian S-400s a done deal: Erdogan

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/turkey- ... an/1411168

Turkey’s president said Wednesday that Ankara has finalized an agreement on purchasing Russia’s S-400 missile defense system.

"We concluded the S-400 issue, signed a deal with the Russians, and will start co-production,” said Recep Tayyip Erdogan, speaking in a televised interview.

"Later, we may work with S-500s," the next generation system, Erdogan said.



Funny, that the story doesn't even mention the F-35. Nor, what Turkey is going to do when the US refuses to deliver them. Which, is all but inevitable at this point..... :?


Erdogan will throw a tantrum as usual and scream about buying Russian or Chinese jets. Russia will offer some co-development BS regarding the TFX and will proceed to take millions or billions from Turkey with zero results.

If Turkey is REALLY lucky, they may have KAI help them with TFX and get it into service by 2030.... Or not.

Likely case... They buy some Chinese 5th gens in 5-8 years and then get booted out of NATO when Erdogan declares himself Sultan.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 23:17
by jakobs
mixelflick wrote:I sure hope the pilots from Turkey training on the F-35 aren't taught too much, if you know what I mean.


I wouldn't worry about that, they'll be jailed when they get home anyway.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 01:15
by vilters
Erdogan can buy whatever he wants. Allah will pay for it.

He is the perfect milk-cow for Russian and Chinese weapons; LOL, as long as they also fill his own pockets. (That is basically all that matters).

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 02:13
by madrat
vilters wrote:Erdogan can buy whatever he wants. Allah will pay for it.

He is the perfect milk-cow for Russian and Chinese weapons; LOL, as long as they also fill his own pockets. (That is basically all that matters).


Erdogan is an ideologist. Money is a means, not a driver.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 06:34
by spazsinbad
My takeaway from this article is highlighted otherwise it is LOOONNGGG and I'm not that interested to understand details.
Why Turkey is buying the Russian S-400 air defence system & why it’s making the US mad: A Turkish perspective
08 Mar 2019 HUSH-Kit & Arda Mevlutoglu

"Turkey is buying an air defence system, the formidable S-400, from Russia. The deal has sparked fury from the US government, which is threatening economic sanctions and the withholding of F-35 stealth fighters....

...S-400 is favoured because of its unrivalled performance, being able to eliminate targets as far as 400km. [Sweden?]

However, a close examination of these reasons leads to a different conclusion: the Russian side repeatedly state that the deal involves no transfer of technology or joint production, i.e the systems will be delivered ‘off-the-shelf’. Furthermore, Turkey officially stated that the S-400 system will not be integrated into Turkey’s air defence network, which in turn is a part of NATO air defence early warning system. In other words, S-400 battery will be used ‘standalone’, which will significantly decrease its effectiveness against especially low flying targets. How the interoperability or Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) issues will be resolved is a complete mystery. These inconsistencies suggest that the decision to purchase S-400 was mostly, if not completely a political decision, rather than a technical one…."

Source: https://hushkit.net/2019/03/08/why-turk ... rspective/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 21:39
by spazsinbad
Forthcoming S-500 Induction Fuels Turkish Interest
12 Mar 2019 Vladimir Karnozov

"...News of the S-500 approaching its entry-into-service has encouraged Ankara to seek ways of acquiring its technologies and specimens to assist with localization. President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan began asking his Russian counterpart for the next-generation SAM back in October 2017, after Ankara and Moscow had settled funding issues on the $2.5 billion Turkish purchase of the production S-400 system. In June 2018, Erdoğan said he had discussed with Putin ways to arrange “joint production” of the S-500.

On March 6, 2019 Erdogan again touched on the theme: "We concluded the S-400 issue, signed a deal with the Russians, and will [soon] start co-production. Later, we may proceed with the S-500." On a separate occasion, he said: “For the future, we have been considering S-500’s joint production and technology [sharing].”

Russo-Turkish talks on the S-400 commenced in 2016. It took negotiators about a year to arrive at a framework agreement. To facilitate the deal, Moscow arranged a credit line on “very favorable conditions.” Ankara says the acquisition program consists of several phases. The first one would see direct purchase of ready-to-use equipment, the second and third would involve localization and joint production.

Meanwhile, Washington continues to apply pressure on Ankara, demanding it abandon the purchase of advanced Russian weaponry. According to Erdoğan, President Donald Trump has personally asked him to give up the S-400. “We replied that this is a done deal. We are not going to abandon our agreements with Russia.” He further said that shipments will commence in July 2019. Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar stressed that Ankara purchasing the S-400 is "not a choice but a necessity." He expects Turkey’s first S-400 unit to come on line in October 2019.

Speaking in the Senate Armed Services Committee, NATO's supreme allied commander, Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti, said Turkey’s acquisition of the Russian SAMs would “potentially forfeit many of the other systems,” including the F-35. While lacking interoperability with NATO equipment, the S-400 is “a problem to all of our aircraft, but specifically the F-35.” He fears that Turkey operating both Russian SAMs and U.S. fighters would lead to the S-400 operators obtaining critical information on the F-35’s radar signatures. Ankara has been seeking to acquire up to a hundred F-35s, and is an industrial partner in the program. Turkish pilots are currently undergoing type conversion at Luke AFB in Arizona.

Washington is offering Ankara a $3.5 billion deal on the Patriot SAM, already approved by Congress with a caveat that Turkey reconsiders its S-400 purchase. Pentagon spokesman Charles Summers told reporters that Turkey's decision to acquire advanced weapons from Russia “would mean that they would not have access to the Patriots and the F-35s.” He threated Ankara with “grave consequences in terms of our military relationship.”"

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... h-interest

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 23:30
by durahawk
Even if the Turks cave to western pressure on the S-400 (looking unlikely), what is stopping them from continuing to acquire the system AFTER receiving deliveries of the first batch of F-35's? There is little reason to take them at their word at this point, IMO. Their preferences are clear.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 05:12
by Corsair1963
durahawk wrote:Even if the Turks cave to western pressure on the S-400 (looking unlikely), what is stopping them from continuing to acquire the system AFTER receiving deliveries of the first batch of F-35's? There is little reason to take them at their word at this point, IMO. Their preferences are clear.



Honestly, Turkey is in a really poor position today, tomorrow, and even in the foreseeable future. Which, is why many have been "annoyed" but not seriously threaten by their recent moves.

This is nothing but a bluff on the part of Erdoğan. Maybe it time to finally call it..... :wink:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 00:06
by lamoey
ISTANBUL (Reuters) - It is not possible for Turkey to back out of a deal with Russia to buy S-400 missile defense systems, President Tayyip Erdogan said on Thursday.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/erdogan-says-turkey-cant-quit-s-400-missile-deal-with-russia/ar-BBUMyV6?ocid=spartanntp

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 02:18
by durahawk
lamoey wrote:
ISTANBUL (Reuters) - It is not possible for Turkey to back out of a deal with Russia to buy S-400 missile defense systems, President Tayyip Erdogan said on Thursday.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/erdogan-says-turkey-cant-quit-s-400-missile-deal-with-russia/ar-BBUMyV6?ocid=spartanntp


I think it's pretty telling that Russia is willing to sell an advanced SAM system to a NATO member who shot down a Russian jet as recently as 2015. This is clearly a play to divide NATO, and Russia is betting on the sale doing just that, and therefore worth the exploitation risk.

Erdogan knows this, but doesn't seem to care. (Even more telling)

That said, I doubt Russia is planning on delivering a full up system in either case.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 14:53
by marsavian
Turkey would be a great geopolitical strategic partner for
Russia to acquire because of their Bosphorus control of the Black Sea. Turkey originally joined NATO as a bulwark against Russian regional pressure, new found Russian friendship maybe the catalyst to ultimately leave it. Geopolitical alliances shift over time and Turkey just may have more in common with Russia and Iran now than it does with its traditional Western allies.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 17:09
by blindpilot
marsavian wrote:Turkey would be a great geopolitical strategic partner for
Russia to acquire because of their Bosphorus control of the Black Sea. Turkey originally joined NATO as a bulwark against Russian regional pressure, new found Russian friendship maybe the catalyst to ultimately leave it. Geopolitical alliances shift over time and Turkey just may have more in common with Russia and Iran now than it does with its traditional Western allies.


Turkey's tensions with Russia are not rooted in "bulwark against" cold war Soviets. Their centuries long (since 1500's) conflicts makes it highly unlikely that Turkey under any regime, Sultanate or Secular or any government, will be a "new found friendship with Russia" ... ever.

Erdogan is playing with fire domestically here. The Turks will never trust Russia. As to Bosphorus, that agreement is one that Greece, Bulgaria, and Romania et al. will respect under only the strictest adherence. Turkey will not break the Montruex Convention. To do so would get very ugly and likely lead to war with Greece and NATO.

As to the Persians... another post sometime. Balancing on a razor blade is a dance many usually try to avoid. We'll see what happens.

FWIW MHO,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 23:35
by vilters
Erdolan states in his latest press release that all Western countries are racists provoking attacks against the Islam like in NZ.

Quote; "The anti Islam is spreading like cancer". Unquote.

I would not sell him my old and rusty third hand spare car.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 12:54
by mixelflick
Sounds like Iran more and more...

Turkey's relationship with NATO is going south fast. I agree: Sell them nothing. Will just wind up in the hands of the Russians. Let them buy the Russian junk and find out for themselves. I foresee an SU-35 buy, perhaps even SU-34's with the idea of being able to hit Greece.

I don't think the SU-57 is going to be exported. Still in troubled development phase, will be plenty expensive when its all said and done. Not being bought in large numbers by Russia, so price per copy will be borderline astronomical. And their new NATO adversaries will be flying F-35's, which will completely outclass his Russian contemporary jets..

It would seem politics/ego will be the sword Erdolan falls on..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2019, 08:27
by loke
Turkish President President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has invoked the Anzacs' Gallipoli campaign in World War I in responding to the mosque attacks in Christchurch, saying anyone who went to Turkey for anti-Muslim reasons would be returned "in coffins", as their grandfathers were.

The Hurriyet news site reported that Erdogan had referred to the failed invasion of the Gallipoli peninsula by allied forces, including the Australian and New Zealand troops, in World War I and said Turkey would "write history" again if anyone stood against Turks, Muslims and all the oppressed

"They are testing us from 16,500km away, from New Zealand, with the messages they are giving from there. This is not an individual attack, it is organised."
It comes after Erdogan used the footage of the gunman's attack in one of his election campaign rallies to highlight Islamophobia in Western countries.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/arti ... d=12214162

Facebook deleted 1.5 million copies of the footage during the first 24 hours, seems Erdogan obtained a copy anyway.

Meanwhile in South America:
As the crisis in Venezuela mounts, tensions between Turkey and the United States appear to be heading towards a standoff over Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s support for his embattled Venezuelan counterpart Nicolas Maduro.

The United States has come out strongly in support of Juan Guaido, president of Venezuela’s National Assembly, who is challenging Maduro. Turkey’s position on the Venezuelan crisis has helped to drive a wedge further into U.S.-Turkey relations, already strained over Ankara’s purchase of Russian S-400 defence systems and other contentious issues.


https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-venezuela/ ... -sanctions

Bolton Blasts Turkey:
Trump National Security Advisor John Bolton has blasted the S-400 deal as one of several major stumbling blocks in US-Turkish relations.

“We’re concerned about their purchase of the Russian air defence system called the S-400 – that’s a big problem,” Bolton said, speaking to AM 970 radio host John Catsimatidis on Sunday morning.

Asked directly by Catsimatidis whether Turkey was a “friend or foe” to the United States, the top Trump foreign policy adviser cited a host of other problems affecting relations.

“Well you know they’re still a NATO ally; we’re trying to work with them, but they’ve got a very bad relationship with our close friends in Israel. That’s something we need to look out on,” Bolton said, adding that disagreements “with respect to the conflict in Syria” were another issue.

https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/bo ... th-russia/

All of this taken together, it does not look good for bringing the F-35 to Turkey. It seems the level of trust is not going to increase anytime soon.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2019, 12:26
by madrat
Turkey is reflecting the brazen attitudes shared by their Persian Gulf buddies, especially a certain prince of a kingdom. No F-35 for any of them. People don't realize the level of destruction this group has dropped on the American population in many subtle ways. One of the sleaziest moves was for a group of these pricks to create 'education' initiatives like creating textbooks that make children learn anti-american opinions about American History, asinine math principles through 'common core', scrambling core subjects with 'integrated' methodologies, and pushing politics like race into mainstream classrooms. The political guardians of both parties lapped up their special interest money in the name of something called progressiveness. The Chinese liked what they saw and began to lead the parade. These foreign interests are not our friends. They have done nothing except run a counter culture campaign against the West since, well, forever. It started long before the archduke in the Balkans. People used to be more vigilant to foreign meddling until this new 'New World Order' established a status quo of looking away.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2019, 12:35
by mixelflick
One of the sleaziest moves was for a group of these pricks to create 'education' initiatives like creating textbooks that make children learn anti-american opinions about American History, asinine math principles through 'common core', scrambling core subjects with 'integrated' methodologies, and pushing politics like race into mainstream classrooms.

You do realize you just described the liberal playbook in US College classrooms?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2019, 13:23
by falcon.16
I do not know what is waiting Trump for to cancel deliveries of F-35 to Turkey.

Maybe is a problem of some clausules on the contract and some penalties, because on this stage everybody knows Turkey will get the S-400 in Summer. So, it is not any debate, Trump need cancel this contract and LM need inmediately change location of the parts of the F-35 which was manufacturing Turkey to other country.

It is a very tired situation, and Erdogan it is not a reliable costumer.

This is a question for Nato too; maybe it will be necesary expulse to Turkey.

Some person who show support to Maduro can not stay inside Nato or inside democratic institutions.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2019, 20:31
by commisar
falcon.16 wrote:I do not know what is waiting Trump for to cancel deliveries of F-35 to Turkey.

Maybe is a problem of some clausules on the contract and some penalties, because on this stage everybody knows Turkey will get the S-400 in Summer. So, it is not any debate, Trump need cancel this contract and LM need inmediately change location of the parts of the F-35 which was manufacturing Turkey to other country.

It is a very tired situation, and Erdogan it is not a reliable costumer.

This is a question for Nato too; maybe it will be necesary expulse to Turkey.

Some person who show support to Maduro can not stay inside Nato or inside democratic institutions.



It'll happen soon enough. Replacing Turkey in the supply chain will take about 18 months.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Mar 2019, 22:50
by fbw
falcon.16 wrote:I do not know what is waiting Trump for to cancel deliveries of F-35 to Turkey.

Maybe is a problem of some clausules on the contract and some penalties, because on this stage everybody knows Turkey will get the S-400 in Summer. So, it is not any debate, Trump need cancel this contract and LM need inmediately change location of the parts of the F-35 which was manufacturing Turkey to other country.

It is a very tired situation, and Erdogan it is not a reliable costumer.

This is a question for Nato too; maybe it will be necesary expulse to Turkey.

Some person who show support to Maduro can not stay inside Nato or inside democratic institutions.



TBH, I don’t think that the US wants to bring this issue to a head by doing anything irrevocable at this point. The report is due to Congress in Nov. By then several things will have happened; Turkey will have received the S-400 (or not), the US will have lined up subcontractors to replace Ayesas (only source for panoramic display), Kale’s share of blisk and other F135 parts, and TAI share of center fuselage. Several of the Turkish sourced parts are JV with US aerospace firms so most likely production will shift to US manufacturer. Elbit won the contract for the upgraded panoramic display in TR3 refresh so that might be a workaround.

Ergodan’s base responds positively to this brinkmanship with the US , but he’s walked back from threats previously. No one can argue Turkey’s been a reliable ally as of late. But, doing something as drastic as kicking them out of NATO, and cutting off all defense ties would have a disastrous effect on Turkey due to close ties with US defense firms, and a negative effect on US aerospace firms both military and commercial who source parts from US-Turkish Joint ventures. That’s not even touching the legal entanglements and possible compromise of US defense technology if we pushed them into the arms of Russia. I think it’s more likely the USG takes a “wait and see approach” while distancing itself as a supplier of weapons to Turkey. But, no, I think the odds of completing Turkish F-35 orders are slim at best and those two Turkish F-35’s never leave Luke.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2019, 00:00
by blindpilot
fbw wrote: ...
TBH, I don’t think that the US wants to bring this issue to a head by doing anything irrevocable at this point. ... if we pushed them into the arms of Russia. I think it’s more likely the USG takes a “wait and see approach” while distancing itself as a supplier of weapons to Turkey. But, no, I think the odds of completing Turkish F-35 orders are slim at best and those two Turkish F-35’s never leave Luke.


I agree with virtually everything you have well said.

I will reiterate however, the historic hatred of Russians runs very deep, and I don't see Turkey being "pushed" there. It would likely trigger civil war with everyone against Erdogan, left, right, center, Islamic, secular ... basically a mass uprising. They really don't trust/like Russia ... a lot! Now China? who knows...

Of course I could be wrong, and it's just ...

MHO,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Mar 2019, 00:26
by marsavian
and the Turks are still supporting Ukraine over Crimea due to their ethnic Tatars there.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/turke ... ty/1419979

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 20:54
by spazsinbad
Sale of F-35s to Turkey in Trouble, Dunford Confirms
21 Mar 2019 Richard Sisk

"Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Joseph Dunford said Thursday that it will be difficult to proceed with the sale and delivery of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters to Turkey given Turkey's insistence on acquiring a Russian system designed to shoot them down. "It's a tough issue," Dunford said, and the U.S. "would have a hard time" justifying the F-35 sale to a nation that has Russia's S-400 advanced anti-air system.

Dunford said he's worked hard to improve relations with NATO-allied Turkey, but the S-400s could be a deal-breaker on the F-35 sale. "We're hopeful to find a way through this, but it's a tough issue," Dunford said....

...Reuters [ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1R20AY ] (see article below now) reported earlier Thursday that the U.S. was eyeing a freeze in preparations to deliver the F-35 to Turkey in light of the country's efforts to acquire the S-400.

"The S-400 is a computer. The F-35 is a computer. You don't hook your computer to your adversary's computer and that's basically what we would be doing," Katie Wheelbarger, acting assistant secretary of defense for international security affairs, told the news outlet in an interview....

...Dunford said that one of his main concerns was preserving the relationship with Turkey beyond the current dispute over the F-35s and the S-400 systems. "Turkey is an ally and a very important ally, and we have many more areas of convergence than divergence. As we look at five, ten years down the road, I want to make very sure that our Turkish allies are close to us," Dunford said. "And I worked that relationship very hard. And to that point, I think since I've been chairman, I've made 12 visits to Turkey. I'm not sure I've gone anyplace else even close to that many times."..."

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2019/0 ... firms.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 21:01
by spazsinbad
Exclusive: U.S. may soon pause preparations for delivering F-35s to Turkey
21 Mar 2019 Idrees Ali, Phil Stewart

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States could soon freeze preparations for delivering F-35 fighter jets to Turkey, officials told Reuters, in what would be the strongest signal yet by Washington that Ankara cannot have both the advanced aircraft and Russia’s S-400 air defense system.

The United States is nearing an inflection point in a years-long standoff with Turkey, a NATO ally, after so far failing to sway President Tayyip Erdogan that buying a Russian air defense system would compromise the security of F-35 aircraft.

“The S-400 is a computer. The F-35 is a computer. You don’t hook your computer to your adversary’s computer and that’s basically what we would be doing,” Katie Wheelbarger, acting assistant secretary of defense for international security affairs, told Reuters.

While no decision has been made yet, U.S. officials confirmed that Washington was considering halting steps now underway to ready Turkey to receive the F-35...

...“There (are) decisions that come up constantly about things being delivered in anticipation of them eventually taking custody of the planes,” said Wheelbarger. “So there’s a lot of things in train that can be paused to send signals to them (that we’re serious),” she added, without detailing those steps.

However, another U.S. official said one of the measures the United States was looking at was alternatives to an engine depot in Turkey, without giving more details. The official said any potential alternatives would likely be somewhere in Western Europe. Turkey is home to an F-35 engine overhaul depot in the western city of Eskisehir....

...The strains on ties between Washington and Ankara already extend beyond the F-35 to include strategy in Syria, Iran sanctions and the detention of U.S. consular staff. “This (the F-35 standoff) is really a symptom, not a cause of the problem between the two countries,” Aliriza [Bulent Aliriza, director of the Turkey project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies] said.

Many U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, worry that Turkey is drifting away from NATO and watch improving relations between Ankara and Moscow with concern. The prospect of Russian contractors or officials on Turkish bases that also are home to the F-35 is unfathomable to many U.S. officials....

...A Turkish S-400 purchase could also trigger a fight with the U.S. Congress, which has already blocked all major arms sales to Ankara while the S-400 deal is pending. Lawmakers could renew attempts to introduce legislation that would legally prohibit the Trump administration from allowing Turkey to have the F-35 if it secures the S-400s...."

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1R20AY

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 11:10
by dimitris
Russia does not need to sell S-400 to "read" the F35's. It just needs political will from Turkey.
They can place only the S-400 radars (or others with same characteristics) at a warehouse, a container, in a forest, anywhere and do the job.

Moreover if they know the flight path of a F35 they can exploit the civil radiowaves (from 80Mhz radio to 800Mhz fullHD) and receive the signals at silent hidden stations in a truck or even a van. Then they will Know that when an F35 is at point A and a civil transmitter is at point B, they will receive a certain kind of signal at point C- the silent receive station.
They will read the F35's signature at, difficult to jam, low bands (HF to VHF) and they will perfect their lock after launch missile algorithms.

They will understand the F35's AESA LPO capabilities, and the Link16, GPS jamming opportunities.
They will perfect the location of bistatic radars.

Stealth planes reflect radiowaves to a few, other than the emitter, directions, they don't eliminate them. So if a Su35 flies over Black Sea at point A and a F35 flies over Turkey then a second Su35 at point B may receive the reflected X-band signal from the first Su. A big envelope of these readings could give the Know-how to fly 2 (or more) Sukhoi's to keep the F35 locked and -via triangulation and RTDS- produce fire solutions.
They will make the full envelope (day, night, clouds, mist etc) of the F35 IR signature. A 5000$ 2k IR camera near an airport can do this.

The acoustic signature envelope also matters. If a set of microphones catches the F135 sound then they will know the direction the sound comes, the speed of the source (dopler) and -approximately- the distance. If you fire a Mach 4 missile with good Kalman filters (with feed from several mics in a vast area) and an IR head (Russians have all of them) do you have good kill probabilities ? (Feel free to answer, i really dont know)

If the Russians can cyberwarfare down an RQ-170, God knows what they can do to ALIS.
Russians can do all the above without selling the S-400. Even if they sell them i dont think they will turn them on in an F35 environment, to protect their secrets. Stealth planes are similar to coding machines. They are usefull as long as the enemy knows you have them but don't know how to crack them. Otherwise the F35 will be nothing more than an A-7 Corsair with gadgets...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 12:19
by mixelflick
So if it's that easy to detect, track and get a firing solution on an F-35... why are both Russia and China developing stealth aircraft too?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 12:39
by hornetfinn
mixelflick wrote:So if it's that easy to detect, track and get a firing solution on an F-35... why are both Russia and China developing stealth aircraft too?


Exactly. And it's not like Russia and China only have the technologies and systems mentioned by dimitris... And LOL ad using LOAL missiles with bistatic (or multistatic) radars or Su-35s receiving radar signals sent by another Su-35... Such things are so easy that nobody has done anything even remotely close to that yet....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 14:03
by dimitris
mixelflick wrote:So if it's that easy to detect, track and get a firing solution on an F-35... why are both Russia and China developing stealth aircraft too?

I didn't said it's easy - the opposite- it is the trillion dollar question. I said that, even without selling the S-400, they would have several good opportunities to see if and what kind of return signals they can get from various sources.
The Su-57 or the J-20 are not stealth the way F35 is. They just tried to reduce RCS from let's say 4m2 to less than 1m2. They have different war doctrines, the loss of a fighter jet/pilot is not unacceptable, like in US doctrines. It is not that they don't have the supercomputers (especially China) to solve the Ufimtsev equations for 2nd gen stealth (curved surfaces) they just dont want to spend that kind of money or compromise other plane characteristics to bring them to the F35 stealth level.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 15:18
by dimitris
hornetfinn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:So if it's that easy to detect, track and get a firing solution on an F-35... why are both Russia and China developing stealth aircraft too?


Exactly. And it's not like Russia and China only have the technologies and systems mentioned by dimitris... And LOL ad using LOAL missiles with bistatic (or multistatic) radars or Su-35s receiving radar signals sent by another Su-35... Such things are so easy that nobody has done anything even remotely close to that yet....


Maybe my writing wasn't clear. I mean "They will perfect the placement of bistatic radars, fullstop.", i didn't mension missiles with bistatic radars. Spoting a stealth plane with low frequency or bistatic radars, firing a 3-4 missiles salvo at the general direction (2-4 miles accuracy) and let the missile heads do the lock-on is the best anti-stealth idea so far. Turning ideas to practice is Turkey problem we are talking about here.
For the Su35 to F35 to another Su35 signals.When an LM engineer was asked if the curved surfaces of the F35 is a stealth problem in a way that they do not "gather" the returning signals in a few directions (like the F-117) he answer "Yes we know that, but we assume that beside and behind the F35 there will be friendly forces". That will not be the case at the Turkey/Russia sea/airspace borders when both types will be flying.
Russians are one thing, Chinese are an other. Russians are Scandinavians, metallurgy is in their DNA, their mathematicians/software developers are at the top of the world, out of the box thinking is in their blood, they just lack good T/R modules. Chinese are good copy/pasters.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 19:43
by blindpilot
dimitris wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:... Such things are so easy that nobody has done anything even remotely close to that yet....

.... Spoting a stealth plane with low frequency or bistatic radars, firing a 3-4 missiles salvo at the general direction (2-4 miles accuracy) and let the missile heads do the lock-on is the best anti-stealth idea so far....


Even if such a thing was remotely possible, and right now it's not, I am amazed at the blind spots of the "how to attack stealth" theories.

One theory example: Even though Russia Stronk et al can apparently totally negate MIssile defenses by throwing a few decoys in the warhead cluster. (with sensors that have solid target returns and data) it seems the stealth attacker is totally defeated by salvos into the void. Hmmmm ...

That answer is that, even if remotely possible in theory, this easily countered by the F-35 pilot sitting on bar stool in the O-Club. The bistatic low freq etc. super system detects "something" fickering in the returns and launches a salvo - - at...

A few hundred cheap MALD type decoys flying into the void. After these super smart defenders salvo all of their expensive super secret sensor missiles, (still missing virtually all of the cheap decoys btw), ...

The F-35 pilot downs one last beer, goes out to his aircraft and takes off into an airspace that has been depleted of defending missiles shooting at shadows.

This blind salvo idea seems to have a few short comings ... not the least of which would be running out of salvo missiles before any stealth aircraft has even started engines. Yeah just keep shooting salvos into the vast unknown ...

IMHO,
BP

PS MALD SAS can be set to look like an F117. So it's been done before.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 19:52
by spazsinbad
:devil: I want to be in your F-35 (mixed variants) squadron 'BP'. I think my flight gear would be slippers & dressing gown (timesaver) & a sipping cup (for the FAA Fleet Air Arm bearded ones). :roll:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 20:13
by milosh
dimitris wrote:
mixelflick wrote:So if it's that easy to detect, track and get a firing solution on an F-35... why are both Russia and China developing stealth aircraft too?

I didn't said it's easy - the opposite- it is the trillion dollar question. I said that, even without selling the S-400, they would have several good opportunities to see if and what kind of return signals they can get from various sources.
The Su-57 or the J-20 are not stealth the way F35 is. They just tried to reduce RCS from let's say 4m2 to less than 1m2. They have different war doctrines, the loss of a fighter jet/pilot is not unacceptable, like in US doctrines. It is not that they don't have the supercomputers (especially China) to solve the Ufimtsev equations for 2nd gen stealth (curved surfaces) they just dont want to spend that kind of money or compromise other plane characteristics to bring them to the F35 stealth level.


Nope.

Chinese stealth study from 2016 mentioned >0.5m2 median as normal value for modern stelath models they analyse, those models didn't take in account RAM&RAS, with RAM&RAS rcs would be noticable lower at least one magintude lower so we are talking about >0.05m2 for median RCS in most imporant segment of frontal RCS (30 or 45 left and right).

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 21:52
by white_lightning35
dimitris wrote:
Maybe my writing wasn't clear. I mean "They will perfect the placement of bistatic radars, fullstop.", i didn't mension missiles with bistatic radars. Spoting a stealth plane with low frequency or bistatic radars, firing a 3-4 missiles salvo at the general direction (2-4 miles accuracy) and let the missile heads do the lock-on is the best anti-stealth idea so far.

It is an idea, not really the best one. How many missiles are in a S-400 battery? Enough to fire 3-4 missiles in "the general direction" of a potential target many times? Doesn't seem very wise.

dimitris wrote:For the Su35 to F35 to another Su35 signals.When an LM engineer was asked if the curved surfaces of the F35 is a stealth problem in a way that they do not "gather" the returning signals in a few directions (like the F-117) he answer "Yes we know that, but we assume that beside and behind the F35 there will be friendly forces".

Would you please provide a source for that? Thanks. I just find it curious that he would say that while all prevailing information for LM and others is that the f-35 has all-aspect VLO, albeit with a larger RCS from some angles.

dimitris wrote:Russians are one thing, Chinese are an other. Russians are Scandinavians,

wrong

dimitris wrote: metallurgy is in their DNA,

I fail to see how

dimitris wrote: their mathematicians/software developers are at the top of the world, out of the box thinking is in their blood,

Yeah, we'll be seeing a Russian Silicon Valley in no time!... It's not like the best ones left for the real Silicon Valley.

dimitris wrote:they just lack good T/R modules. Chinese are good copy/pasters.

Both true

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 23:09
by marsavian
The thing about curved surface stealth is that it limits the return signal in any one particular direction reducing spikes so even if you set up bi-static radars the returning signal will still be weak in whatever direction you picked it up. Surfaces like leading/trailing edges where spikes are unavoidable are usually treated with RAM to reduce those too. Also the smaller radar on the missile still has to get a lock. Stealth aircraft just defeat traditional radar technology, Electro-Optics/Infra-Red is the only real antidote to them.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 23:52
by botsing
dimitris wrote:firing a 3-4 missiles salvo at the general direction (2-4 miles accuracy) and let the missile heads do the lock-on is the best anti-stealth idea so far.

Right...

Spot the F-35 in the "general direction" of that 2 mile area:
F-35.png


Now imagine:
  • The F-35's stealth will make it even harder for a (relatively small) missile seeker.
  • The F-35 will spot those missiles the moment they are fired.
  • If by pure luck a missile is fired perfectly in the right direction of the F-35, that same F-35 will take measure to move out of the way.
  • That F-35 is not there alone.
  • By firing those missiles you just identified yourself as a target.

It's pretty amazing that people come up with "anti-stealth solutions" but somehow forget that the stealth planes are active players too.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2019, 01:06
by XanderCrews
dimitris wrote:. Russians are Scandinavians, metallurgy is in their DNA, their mathematicians/software developers are at the top of the world, out of the box thinking is in their blood



Image

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2019, 01:12
by XanderCrews
dimitris wrote:Russia does not need to sell S-400 to "read" the F35's. It just needs political will from Turkey.
They can place only the S-400 radars (or others with same characteristics) at a warehouse, a container, in a forest, anywhere and do the job.
Moreover if they know the flight path of a F35 they can exploit the civil radiowaves (from 80Mhz radio to 800Mhz fullHD) and receive the signals at silent hidden stations in a truck or even a van. Then they will Know that when an F35 is at point A and a civil transmitter is at point B, they will receive a certain kind of signal at point C- the silent receive station.
They will read the F35's signature at, difficult to jam, low bands (HF to VHF) and they will perfect their lock after launch missile algorithms.
They will understand the F35's AESA LPO capabilities, and the Link16, GPS jamming opportunities.
They will perfect the location of bistatic radars.
Stealth planes reflect radiowaves to a few, other than the emitter, directions, they don't eliminate them. So if a Su35 flies over Black Sea at point A and a F35 flies over Turkey then a second Su35 at point B may receive the reflected X-band signal from the first Su. A big envelope of these readings could give the Know-how to fly 2 (or more) Sukhoi's to keep the F35 locked and -via triangulation and RTDS- produce fire solutions.
They will make the full envelope (day, night, clouds, mist etc) of the F35 IR signature. A 5000$ 2k IR camera near an airport can do this.
The acoustic signature envelope also matters. If a set of microphones catches the F135 sound then they will know the direction the sound comes, the speed of the source (dopler) and -approximately- the distance. If you fire a Mach 4 missile with good Kalman filters (with feed from several mics in a vast area) and an IR head (Russians have all of them) do you have good kill probabilities ? (Feel free to answer, i really dont know)


No

If the Russians can cyberwarfare down an RQ-170, God knows what they can do to ALIS.


If the Russians can collide and crash at airshows, god knows how theyll crash in war.

(false equivalence is a terrible thing)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2019, 20:39
by falcon.16
fbw wrote:
falcon.16 wrote:I do not know what is waiting Trump for to cancel deliveries of F-35 to Turkey.

Maybe is a problem of some clausules on the contract and some penalties, because on this stage everybody knows Turkey will get the S-400 in Summer. So, it is not any debate, Trump need cancel this contract and LM need inmediately change location of the parts of the F-35 which was manufacturing Turkey to other country.

It is a very tired situation, and Erdogan it is not a reliable costumer.

This is a question for Nato too; maybe it will be necesary expulse to Turkey.

Some person who show support to Maduro can not stay inside Nato or inside democratic institutions.



TBH, I don’t think that the US wants to bring this issue to a head by doing anything irrevocable at this point. The report is due to Congress in Nov. By then several things will have happened; Turkey will have received the S-400 (or not), the US will have lined up subcontractors to replace Ayesas (only source for panoramic display), Kale’s share of blisk and other F135 parts, and TAI share of center fuselage. Several of the Turkish sourced parts are JV with US aerospace firms so most likely production will shift to US manufacturer. Elbit won the contract for the upgraded panoramic display in TR3 refresh so that might be a workaround.

Ergodan’s base responds positively to this brinkmanship with the US , but he’s walked back from threats previously. No one can argue Turkey’s been a reliable ally as of late. But, doing something as drastic as kicking them out of NATO, and cutting off all defense ties would have a disastrous effect on Turkey due to close ties with US defense firms, and a negative effect on US aerospace firms both military and commercial who source parts from US-Turkish Joint ventures. That’s not even touching the legal entanglements and possible compromise of US defense technology if we pushed them into the arms of Russia. I think it’s more likely the USG takes a “wait and see approach” while distancing itself as a supplier of weapons to Turkey. But, no, I think the odds of completing Turkish F-35 orders are slim at best and those two Turkish F-35’s never leave Luke.


I think USA have similar situation than it was Iran and sure Usa does not want to see as russian pilots fly F-35 same soviet pilots did with F-14 iranian tomcats.

Sooner or later they will take the final decition. I do not believe that all this issue is because USA dis not want sell patriot missiles time ago...i think it is excuses.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2019, 20:50
by falcon.16
dimitris wrote:Russia does not need to sell S-400 to "read" the F35's. It just needs political will from Turkey.
They can place only the S-400 radars (or others with same characteristics) at a warehouse, a container, in a forest, anywhere and do the job.

Moreover if they know the flight path of a F35 they can exploit the civil radiowaves (from 80Mhz radio to 800Mhz fullHD) and receive the signals at silent hidden stations in a truck or even a van. Then they will Know that when an F35 is at point A and a civil transmitter is at point B, they will receive a certain kind of signal at point C- the silent receive station.
They will read the F35's signature at, difficult to jam, low bands (HF to VHF) and they will perfect their lock after launch missile algorithms.

They will understand the F35's AESA LPO capabilities, and the Link16, GPS jamming opportunities.
They will perfect the location of bistatic radars.

Stealth planes reflect radiowaves to a few, other than the emitter, directions, they don't eliminate them. So if a Su35 flies over Black Sea at point A and a F35 flies over Turkey then a second Su35 at point B may receive the reflected X-band signal from the first Su. A big envelope of these readings could give the Know-how to fly 2 (or more) Sukhoi's to keep the F35 locked and -via triangulation and RTDS- produce fire solutions.
They will make the full envelope (day, night, clouds, mist etc) of the F35 IR signature. A 5000$ 2k IR camera near an airport can do this.

The acoustic signature envelope also matters. If a set of microphones catches the F135 sound then they will know the direction the sound comes, the speed of the source (dopler) and -approximately- the distance. If you fire a Mach 4 missile with good Kalman filters (with feed from several mics in a vast area) and an IR head (Russians have all of them) do you have good kill probabilities ? (Feel free to answer, i really dont know)

If the Russians can cyberwarfare down an RQ-170, God knows what they can do to ALIS.
Russians can do all the above without selling the S-400. Even if they sell them i dont think they will turn them on in an F35 environment, to protect their secrets. Stealth planes are similar to coding machines. They are usefull as long as the enemy knows you have them but don't know how to crack them. Otherwise the F35 will be nothing more than an A-7 Corsair with gadgets...


You think all is very easy.


You never will know where is located one F-35, so it does not matter you have biestactic systems because will not know which lower signal as noise come from a F-35 and in the hypothetical case that you know it is a F-35 will be flying surely with luneberg pods. So, all data you are getting actually, in a real scenary war is the same than nothing.

But if you have some help from inside,....example Turkey, then you can get some good information.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2019, 08:15
by hornetfinn
These great anti F-35 scenarios always go the same way:

- There is only one F-35 in the whole combat area
- That lonely F-35 is totally blind, deaf and mute
- That lonely F-35 can only fly straight and level no matter what happens
- That lonely F-35 has no means to attack enemy fighters or SAM systems
- That lonely F-35 does not have any countermeasures to enemy systems
- When enemy radar gets one return from F-35, it will instantly know it's F-35 and has not trouble engaging it
- VLO stealth doesn't somehow affect missile seekers
- etc.

Yes, that sure sounds realistic... Basically these scenarios consider F-35 as lesser version of F-117 against very latest technologies currently being developed.

Anyway even if Russia did get a good radar signature of F-35 with Turkish (or any other) S-400 radars, I don't think that would matter that much. They (and everybody else) already know that it has extremely small RCS and can manage the signature extremely well (with competent pilot) against enemy systems. They could model F-35 in simulations (and are definitely doing so) and possibly even with some special built drones with RCS and other characteristics in the right ballpark. That will just tell them that detecting, tracking and engaging such targets is very, very difficult. Which is no big surprise to anybody really.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2019, 11:18
by dimitris
blindpilot wrote:
dimitris wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:... Such things are so easy that nobody has done anything even remotely close to that yet....

.... Spoting a stealth plane with low frequency or bistatic radars, firing a 3-4 missiles salvo at the general direction (2-4 miles accuracy) and let the missile heads do the lock-on is the best anti-stealth idea so far....


Even if such a thing was remotely possible, and right now it's not, I am amazed at the blind spots of the "how to attack stealth" theories.

One theory example: Even though Russia Stronk et al can apparently totally negate MIssile defenses by throwing a few decoys in the warhead cluster. (with sensors that have solid target returns and data) it seems the stealth attacker is totally defeated by salvos into the void. Hmmmm ...

That answer is that, even if remotely possible in theory, this easily countered by the F-35 pilot sitting on bar stool in the O-Club. The bistatic low freq etc. super system detects "something" fickering in the returns and launches a salvo - - at...

A few hundred cheap MALD type decoys flying into the void. After these super smart defenders salvo all of their expensive super secret sensor missiles, (still missing virtually all of the cheap decoys btw), ...

The F-35 pilot downs one last beer, goes out to his aircraft and takes off into an airspace that has been depleted of defending missiles shooting at shadows.

This blind salvo idea seems to have a few short comings ... not the least of which would be running out of salvo missiles before any stealth aircraft has even started engines. Yeah just keep shooting salvos into the vast unknown ...

IMHO,
BP

PS MALD SAS can be set to look like an F117. So it's been done before.


I don't disagree with you, trying not to shoot at a decoy, a false DRFM target or, even worse, a silent friend is exactly where the game is playing right now.

At the latest Western missile attack at Syria, JASSM and SCALP where used. A Syrian SAM battery officer said that there screens where saturated with false targets and they tried, in junction with Russian officers at the S-400 batteries, to "clarify" them. The results are still unknown/classified. Also a week latter Syrian SAM's shoot at Israel's false targets.
The points i wanted to make are:

a) The Turkish air space is not "sterilised". Russian AWACS, radars, IR sensors, SAM's will monitor F35 flights/exercises over Turkey's airspace

b) If Russian's get -one way or another- at their hands a pilot's report of an F35 exercise - "If and how many decoys they launched, when the RADAR, E/W suite was ON/OFF, what happened wnen they tried to jam them e.t.c" they will have a short cut, backdoor access to do their job.

c) Russia don't need to sell S-400 to Turkey to do the above

I also agree with you about F35 pilots drinking beers. After the US-Russia retreat from medium range missiles treaty the next gen super/hyper sonic missiles won't need an F35/Su57 to carry them 200 miles from target. They will travel the first 1000 miles on their own.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2019, 14:01
by dimitris
white_lightning35 wrote:
dimitris wrote:
Maybe my writing wasn't clear. I mean "They will perfect the placement of bistatic radars, fullstop.", i didn't mension missiles with bistatic radars. Spoting a stealth plane with low frequency or bistatic radars, firing a 3-4 missiles salvo at the general direction (2-4 miles accuracy) and let the missile heads do the lock-on is the best anti-stealth idea so far.

It is an idea, not really the best one. How many missiles are in a S-400 battery? Enough to fire 3-4 missiles in "the general direction" of a potential target many times? Doesn't seem very wise.

The idea of a kill chain, using low frequency radars is that you dont lock the plane, you lock, let's say, a 2X2X2 miles block and you sent the missile there. When the missile "enetrs" this block at any given direction, then if: a) It can see/ lock the plane, b) can take the turn, then you may have a kill.

I think that all kind of radar-guided-end-game missiles can't to this against an F35 because a) it is stealth, b) it has a very powerfull E/W suite, c) usually radar missiles are heavier, less g capable.

On the other hand you may have good chanche with modern IR end-game missiles that are guided to the 2 miles block via low frequency radars mid course guidance because : a) gyroscopes to guide and mechanisms to "clear" clouds, clutter, sun are replaced by more capable/reliable 3D MEMS and software b) Modern dual-spectrum IR detectors are high-res, dont need a heavy cryogenic apparatus to work and can provide IFF by 3D matching c) These missiles have large angle off-bore sight and are 60+g, thrust vectoring capable.

Identifying true from false targets is the key and that's where Turkey's problem comes in

dimitris wrote:For the Su35 to F35 to another Su35 signals.When an LM engineer was asked if the curved surfaces of the F35 is a stealth problem in a way that they do not "gather" the returning signals in a few directions (like the F-117) he answer "Yes we know that, but we assume that beside and behind the F35 there will be friendly forces".

Would you please provide a source for that? Thanks. I just find it curious that he would say that while all prevailing information for LM and others is that the f-35 has all-aspect VLO, albeit with a larger RCS from some angles.

No i cant, just delete the LM word. The thing is that if a modern X-band radar emits, this signal reflects on a curved F35 surface (with no spikes but at a wide angle) and directs somewhere. If there happens to be another X-band receive radar then in a triangle you know one side (the distance between emit-receive radars) and two angles (the one that you emit and the one that you receive) so the triangle is solved. If the two radars can have real time data sharing, i think they can produce firing solution in X-band.

dimitris wrote:Russians are one thing, Chinese are an other. Russians are Scandinavians,

wrong

Their "birth" race, the Ros where Vikings. I dont want to write political/historical comments, you may find interesting the story of the Varangian guard, maybe the best elite force ever

dimitris wrote: metallurgy is in their DNA,

I fail to see how

Even today western mechanics can't produce oxygen rich combustion pre-chambers (and their sealants) for rocket motors, although US bought NK-33's (60's produced) and now RD-180's. They don't understand how at a 2700+Celsius, high pressure, oxygen rich environment metal alloys don't just melt / blow sealants. Cutting edge SPACE-X motors use dual chambers, just to solve the sealants problem.

Titanium alloy parts for Western air/space industry are ordered from Russia, for good - i suppose - reasons.

IF, and i say IF we believe Putin's announcement for nuclear powered cruise missiles, this is a whole new level in metallurgy/heat transfer technology.

dimitris wrote: their mathematicians/software developers are at the top of the world, out of the box thinking is in their blood,

Yeah, we'll be seeing a Russian Silicon Valley in no time!... It's not like the best ones left for the real Silicon Valley.

We are not talking commercial use, i'll just remind you that PESA techology and the maths behind wave interference were first seen at MIG-31 look down, shoot down radar.


dimitris wrote:they just lack good T/R modules. Chinese are good copy/pasters.

Both true

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2019, 14:26
by falcon.16
hornetfinn wrote:These great anti F-35 scenarios always go the same way:

- There is only one F-35 in the whole combat area
- That lonely F-35 is totally blind, deaf and mute
- That lonely F-35 can only fly straight and level no matter what happens
- That lonely F-35 has no means to attack enemy fighters or SAM systems
- That lonely F-35 does not have any countermeasures to enemy systems
- When enemy radar gets one return from F-35, it will instantly know it's F-35 and has not trouble engaging it
- VLO stealth doesn't somehow affect missile seekers
- etc.

Yes, that sure sounds realistic... Basically these scenarios consider F-35 as lesser version of F-117 against very latest technologies currently being developed.

Anyway even if Russia did get a good radar signature of F-35 with Turkish (or any other) S-400 radars, I don't think that would matter that much. They (and everybody else) already know that it has extremely small RCS and can manage the signature extremely well (with competent pilot) against enemy systems. They could model F-35 in simulations (and are definitely doing so) and possibly even with some special built drones with RCS and other characteristics in the right ballpark. That will just tell them that detecting, tracking and engaging such targets is very, very difficult. Which is no big surprise to anybody really.


Yes, in a real war scenario with many fighters around with much bigger rcs than F-35, with many electronic warfare going, many noise, to find an only F-35 will be same than find a litle needle in a big haystack.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2019, 21:13
by XanderCrews
hornetfinn wrote:These great anti F-35 scenarios always go the same way:

- There is only one F-35 in the whole combat area
- That lonely F-35 is totally blind, deaf and mute
- That lonely F-35 can only fly straight and level no matter what happens
- That lonely F-35 has no means to attack enemy fighters or SAM systems
- That lonely F-35 does not have any countermeasures to enemy systems
- When enemy radar gets one return from F-35, it will instantly know it's F-35 and has not trouble engaging it
- VLO stealth doesn't somehow affect missile seekers
- etc.

Yes, that sure sounds realistic... Basically these scenarios consider F-35 as lesser version of F-117 against very latest technologies currently being developed.

Anyway even if Russia did get a good radar signature of F-35 with Turkish (or any other) S-400 radars, I don't think that would matter that much. They (and everybody else) already know that it has extremely small RCS and can manage the signature extremely well (with competent pilot) against enemy systems. They could model F-35 in simulations (and are definitely doing so) and possibly even with some special built drones with RCS and other characteristics in the right ballpark. That will just tell them that detecting, tracking and engaging such targets is very, very difficult. Which is no big surprise to anybody really.



The simple fact is that if you have the Enemy relying on this whole perfect system working perfectly, in an environment where its extremely hard to get things to work and work well at all, then you win. If you need 6 sensors working in perfect concert and the loss of even one, stymies the whole thing than its not a good system.

One of the purposes of the F-35 is create a "tactical fork" if you have to sortie half your air force to stop just a 4 ship, then the F-35 has already won as thats simlpy not sustainable.

The F-35 is not meant to be invincible, Its meant to create tactical problems an enemy can't solve without dedicating a disproportionate amount of resources to stopping it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2019, 21:34
by SpudmanWP
Look at the problems that Package Q ran into.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2019, 14:16
by marsavian
Amid Russia tensions, producing F-35 fighter jets without Turkey possible - U.S. sources

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa- ... KKCN1R90CU

Two U.S. sources familiar with the F-35’s intricate, worldwide production process and U.S. thinking on the issue say Turkey can be replaced. Officials with the Pentagon and the Turkish embassy declined to comment.

“There are about 800 parts that Turkey makes for the F-35, and of them, very few are sole source,” said a person with direct knowledge of the U.S. position, explaining that single source parts from Turkey can be replaced by contractors who had previously bid to make them.
Replacing or finding substitutes for the Turkish components would slow production for a three-month period at the Lockheed Martin facility that builds the jets, the person said.

Lockheed declined to comment.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu in December said Ankara plays a significant role in the production of the trillion-dollar jet and therefore removing it from the program would not be easy.

But sources say several components of the F-35 made in Turkey, can be easily replaced. For example, the center fuselage produced in Ankara, could be made by Northrop Grumman Corp , which already makes them in California.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Mar 2019, 08:48
by loke
Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu on March 29 said an agreement for the procurement of the Russian S-400 air defense system is a “done deal” and refuted claims that Turkey might ship the system to a third country in a bid to avoid United States’ sanctions.

“We have sealed an agreement with the Russian Federation and we are committed to this deal,” Çavuşoğlu told reporters after a meeting with his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov in Antalya.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... -fm-142267

A bipartisan group of senators has introduced legislation that would block Turkey from buying the U.S.-made F-35 joint fighter aircraft if it goes ahead with plans to buy Russia’s S-400 air defense system.

The bill, co-sponsored by Democratic Sens. Jeanne Shaheen and Chris Van Hollen and Republican Sens. James Lankford and Thom Tillis, would prohibit the delivery of F-35 jets to Ankara until the Trump administration can confirm that Turkey is not purchasing the Russian defense system.


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... rkey-buys/

This does not look very promising.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Apr 2019, 08:49
by loke
Also on Thursday, Congressmen John Sarbanes and Gus Bilirakis submitted a letter to the House Appropriations Committee urging that no funds be made available to facilitate the F-35 delivery to Turkey until the Secretary of State certifies that Ankara is no longer purchasing Russia’s S-400 system. The letter, signed by 31 representatives, details the dangers of Turkey acquiring both the S-400 and F-35.

https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-usa/us-off ... 35s-turkey

So one letter and one bill...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 03:47
by spazsinbad
US stops F-35 fighter jet parts delivery to Turkey :bang: :devil: [PARTS? - is this an April Fool Joke?] :doh: :roll:
01 Apr 2019 LOLITA C. BALDOR and MATTHEW LEE

"WASHINGTON (AP) — After months of warnings, the United States has stopped delivery of F-35 fighter jet parts to Turkey in retaliation for Ankara’s decision to move ahead with the purchase of a Russian surface-to-air missile system, U.S. officials said Monday.

Top U.S. government leaders have repeatedly threatened to shut down Turkey’s plan to buy the F-35 advanced fighter aircraft if Turkey didn’t abandon efforts to buy the S-400 Russian system. Halting the delivery of parts and manuals needed to prepare for the aircraft’s planned delivery this summer is the first step toward ending the actual aircraft sale.

...The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the decision before it was announced....

...Turkey's foreign minister said Friday his country was committed to buying the Russian missile defense system. Speaking at a joint news conference with his Russian counterpart, Sergey Lavrov, in the Mediterranean coastal city of Antalya, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu ruled out the possibility of Turkey selling the S-400s to another country as suggested by some analysts as a compromise solution.

"As a principle, it is contrary to international laws for a third country to oppose an agreement between two countries," Cavusoglu said. "We are committed to this agreement. There can be no such thing as selling to a third country. We are buying them for our own needs." Cavusoglu also insisted Turkey had met all of its obligations concerning the F-35 program."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/04 ... to-turkey/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 03:54
by spazsinbad
MOre of SAme here as well: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -t-457097/
&
Details of TURKISH DELIGHTS: https://breakingdefense.com/2019/04/us- ... to-turkey/

US Makes First Moves to Block Turkey from F-35 Buy Over Russian S-400 Dispute
01 Apr 2019 John A. Tirpak

"The US government has taken steps to block the shipment of F-35 parts and technical information to its NATO ally Turkey—a development and production partner on the multinational strike fighter—because of Ankara’s refusal to terminate its planned purchase of Russia’s S-400 air defense system.

The steps are apparently not yet permanent, and Turkey is not yet “out” of the F-35 program, but the diplomatic situation is headed there if Turkey doesn’t change its mind about the purchase, the Pentagon said.

“The United States has suspended deliveries and activities associated with the stand-up of Turkey’s F-35 operational capability. Should Turkey procure the S-400, their continued participation in the F-35 program is at risk,” Charles Summers, acting Pentagon spokesman, said in a statement issued Monday.

The US “has been clear that Turkey’s acquisition of the S-400 is unacceptable,” he added. “Therefore, the DOD has initiated steps necessary to ensure prudent program planning and resiliency of the F-35 supply chain. Secondary sources of supply for Turkish-produced parts are now in development.”

He said, “We very much regret” the F-35 situation with Turkey, but the US must take “prudent steps to protect the shared investments made in our critical technology.” He pledged dialog with Turkey will continue “until they forego delivery of the S-400.”...

...F-35 Joint Program Office director Vice Adm. Mat Winter told Air Force Magazine in December that he’d been tasked to provide the Pentagon with an assessment of how Turkey’s expulsion from the program would affect the program.

“Turkey produces 844 parts for me,” Winter said in the interview, “and they are quality parts, affordable parts, and delivered on time.” He said Turkey is “one of my best partners.” Those components include cockpit displays, landing gear elements and fuselage pieces, among other items. In addition to supplying components, Turkey was to become a second source for F-35 center fuselages, which are produced in the US by Northrop Grumman. Turkey was also to be the site of an F135 engine overhaul facility for F-35 users in the Middle East/Southwest Asia region...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... spute.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 06:27
by spazsinbad
US Halts Shipment of F-35 Equipment to Turkey
01 Apr 2019 Oriana Pawlyk

"The United States has halted shipments of F-35A Joint Strike Fighter equipment to Turkey after the NATO ally refused to back down from its intent to purchase the Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile system. "We very much regret the current situation facing our F-35 partnership with Turkey, and the [Defense Department] is taking prudent steps to protect the shared investments made in our critical technology," Acting Chief Pentagon Spokesperson Charles Summers said in a statement Monday....

...Officials at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, had been preparing to receive two additional F-35As in coming weeks for its pilot-training program with Turkey. That move has also been delayed, according to a separate report from Bloomberg News. Officials at Luke could not confirm the delay or provide any additional information by press time."

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2019/0 ... urkey.html

U.S. halts F-35 equipment to Turkey, protests its plans to buy from Russia
02 Apr 2019 Mike Stone, Humeyra Pamuk

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has halted delivery of equipment related to the stealthy F-35 fighter aircraft to Turkey, marking the first concrete U.S. step to block delivery of the jet to the NATO ally in light of Ankara’s planned purchase of a Russian missile defense system....

...“Pending an unequivocal Turkish decision to forgo delivery of the S-400, deliveries and activities associated with the stand-up of Turkey’s F-35 operational capability have been suspended,” Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Mike Andrews, a Defense Department spokesman, said in a statement....

...The sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told Reuters the next shipment of training equipment, and all subsequent shipments of F-35 related material, had been canceled....

...Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar in March said that despite some issues, Turkish pilots were continuing their training at an air base in Arizona on the F-35, each of which costs $90 million, and that Ankara was expecting the aircraft to arrive in Turkey in November. By halting jet deliveries, the Pentagon could subsequently delay training of Turkish pilots. Two additional jets are scheduled to arrive in Arizona in April and a significant delay could impact Turkey’s November target date for operations...."

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1RD316

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 10:18
by Corsair1963
If, Erdogan thinks the US is likely to back down. Then he is in for a rude awakening. Especially, with President Trump in Office!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 12:45
by marsavian
Erdogan is a delusional megalomaniac with his own perverse unique view of the world, who knows what he is really expecting ? I would not rule out a last minute climb down once reality finally makes a guest appearance in his dreamworld where he is the great Sultan Leader of the Islamic world.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 13:30
by sferrin
marsavian wrote:Erdogan is a delusional megalomaniac with his own perverse unique view of the world, who knows what he is really expecting ? I would not rule out a last minute climb down once reality finally makes a guest appearance in his dreamworld where he is the great Sultan Leader of the Islamic world.


Hopefully he doesn't just play ball long enough to get some F-35s then jump back on the S-400 train. "Vlad, let me postpone the S-400 for a couple years, then when I get my F-35s I'll give you one." If I were the Trump administration I'd tell Turkey they're done. They can go buy Typhoons or Rafales if they want new fighters.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 14:00
by spazsinbad
Pentagon Halts F-35 Equipment Delivery To Turkey
01 Apr 2019 Lee Hudson

"...In November the Pentagon submitted a congressionally mandated report saying that the White House will reassess Turkey’s continued F-35 participation should the nation continue with its purchase of the S-400. Aerospace DAILY obtained a copy of the report....

...“The Turkish government has repeatedly and publicly stated that it has concluded an agreement to procure the S-400,” an unclassified executive summary of the Turkey report says. “The initial delivery date will reportedly occur as early as July 2019.”...

...Turkey has invested more than $1.25 billion toward the F-35 program and intends to purchase 100 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing aircraft. The country has established an F135 engine final assembly and checkout provider and is hosting a regional F135 maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade facility....

...Section 231 of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) requires the president to impose sanctions on any individuals or entities that engage in a significant transaction with the Russian intelligence or defense sector.

“Any sanctions would likely further complicate U.S.-Turkey bilateral relations, including U.S.-Turkey cooperative defense programs, and the supply to the United States and its partners of Turkish-made defense parts and components,” the document says. “Turkish acquisition programs that could be affected include but are not limited to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Patriot Air and Missile Defense System, CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopter, UH-60 Black Hawk utility helicopter, and the F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft.”

The Trump administration has also developed an alternative package to provide Turkey with a NATO-interoperable air and missile defense system that meets the nation’s requirements, the document says. Parts of the package require congressional notification, and it is important that members support foreign military sales and direct commercial sales to Turkey so that the proposal is a real alternative, the document says."

Source: https://aviationweek.com/defense/pentag ... ery-turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 17:37
by commisar
spazsinbad wrote:
Pentagon Halts F-35 Equipment Delivery To Turkey
01 Apr 2019 Lee Hudson

"...In November the Pentagon submitted a congressionally mandated report saying that the White House will reassess Turkey’s continued F-35 participation should the nation continue with its purchase of the S-400. Aerospace DAILY obtained a copy of the report....

...“The Turkish government has repeatedly and publicly stated that it has concluded an agreement to procure the S-400,” an unclassified executive summary of the Turkey report says. “The initial delivery date will reportedly occur as early as July 2019.”...

...Turkey has invested more than $1.25 billion toward the F-35 program and intends to purchase 100 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing aircraft. The country has established an F135 engine final assembly and checkout provider and is hosting a regional F135 maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade facility....

...Section 231 of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) requires the president to impose sanctions on any individuals or entities that engage in a significant transaction with the Russian intelligence or defense sector.

“Any sanctions would likely further complicate U.S.-Turkey bilateral relations, including U.S.-Turkey cooperative defense programs, and the supply to the United States and its partners of Turkish-made defense parts and components,” the document says. “Turkish acquisition programs that could be affected include but are not limited to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Patriot Air and Missile Defense System, CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopter, UH-60 Black Hawk utility helicopter, and the F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft.”

The Trump administration has also developed an alternative package to provide Turkey with a NATO-interoperable air and missile defense system that meets the nation’s requirements, the document says. Parts of the package require congressional notification, and it is important that members support foreign military sales and direct commercial sales to Turkey so that the proposal is a real alternative, the document says."

Source: https://aviationweek.com/defense/pentag ... ery-turkey


Ahahahah, yes. Looks like Sultan to be Erdogan is getting slapped down by both the USA and voters in Turkey.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 20:09
by vilters
Yep, it is good news to see some inside anti Erdo-clan-stan voting.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Apr 2019, 22:08
by blain
sferrin wrote:
marsavian wrote:Erdogan is a delusional megalomaniac with his own perverse unique view of the world, who knows what he is really expecting ? I would not rule out a last minute climb down once reality finally makes a guest appearance in his dreamworld where he is the great Sultan Leader of the Islamic world.


Hopefully he doesn't just play ball long enough to get some F-35s then jump back on the S-400 train. "Vlad, let me postpone the S-400 for a couple years, then when I get my F-35s I'll give you one." If I were the Trump administration I'd tell Turkey they're done. They can go buy Typhoons or Rafales if they want new fighters.


Exactly! Even without purchasing the S400s Turkey is a security risk for the sale of any U.S. sophisticated military technology, especially one as important as the F-35.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2019, 13:36
by mixelflick
Thank God we caught this one before it was too late..

Having such an advanced piece of technology compromised so early in the program's history could have been a deal killer. Who would buy F-35's if the perception is that because of Turkey/Russia getting a look at it - it's a sitting duck?

Then again, that happened to the F-14. The USN went on to successfully use it/made changes to keep it one step ahead but, no other nation ordered it. In fairness that likely had more to do with the cost of the weapons system and the fact it was a Naval fighter didn't make it very attractive. You could buy a lot more F-16's for the same $, and many nations did. Plus, not every nation needed an aircraft capable of downing Foxbat overflights..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2019, 18:24
by scudbuster
These are the F-35 components that are produced by Turkey.
Approximately $700 million in products and services to date.

Source is Turkish Undersecretariat for Defense Industry

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2019, 21:02
by spazsinbad
In English a list of Turkish F-35/F135 Industrial Particpants:

https://www.f35.com/global/participatio ... ticipation

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Apr 2019, 22:48
by durahawk
mixelflick wrote:Thank God we caught this one before it was too late..

Having such an advanced piece of technology compromised so early in the program's history could have been a deal killer. Who would buy F-35's if the perception is that because of Turkey/Russia getting a look at it - it's a sitting duck?

Then again, that happened to the F-14. The USN went on to successfully use it/made changes to keep it one step ahead but, no other nation ordered it. In fairness that likely had more to do with the cost of the weapons system and the fact it was a Naval fighter didn't make it very attractive. You could buy a lot more F-16's for the same $, and many nations did. Plus, not every nation needed an aircraft capable of downing Foxbat overflights..


There is much to criticize with intelligence failures regarding the F-14 sale to Iran, but the Shah wasn't actively undermining US Foreign Policy at the time of the deliveies. Conituing to sell the F-35 to Turkey would be even more foolish at this point.

I think the big sticking point right now is what happens to all the R&D costs and program dues Turkey contributed. Do they need to be paid back? How are the industrial offsets accounted for? This is not a stardard FMS sale, they are a Level III partner, there are a lot more strings attached.

This is why Erdogan is betting on the US backing down.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/03/70922296 ... er-to-blin
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is showing no signs of yielding to the United States. He says he remains interested in getting the Patriot missile system but insists the S-400 deal with Russia is done and Turkey is not turning back. "Nobody," Erdogan told one Turkish TV interviewer, "should ask us to lick up what we spat."

"This is a very rocky relationship," says Asli Aydintasbas, an Istanbul-based senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations.

As Erdogan frenetically campaigned across Turkey in the lead-up to municipal elections held Sunday, she adds, at "each and every rally he [brought] up S-400s, saying, 'We're going to buy it; they told me not to buy it' — almost making it look like it's a sign of his virility, his independence, his power on the world stage that he could say no to [the] United States."

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2019, 00:10
by blain
durahawk wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Thank God we caught this one before it was too late..

Having such an advanced piece of technology compromised so early in the program's history could have been a deal killer. Who would buy F-35's if the perception is that because of Turkey/Russia getting a look at it - it's a sitting duck?

Then again, that happened to the F-14. The USN went on to successfully use it/made changes to keep it one step ahead but, no other nation ordered it. In fairness that likely had more to do with the cost of the weapons system and the fact it was a Naval fighter didn't make it very attractive. You could buy a lot more F-16's for the same $, and many nations did. Plus, not every nation needed an aircraft capable of downing Foxbat overflights..


There is much to criticize with intelligence failures regarding the F-14 sale to Iran, but the Shah wasn't actively undermining US Foreign Policy at the time of the deliveies. Conituing to sell the F-35 to Turkey would be even more foolish at this point.

I think the big sticking point right now is what happens to all the R&D costs and program dues Turkey contributed. Do they need to be paid back? How are the industrial offsets accounted for? This is not a stardard FMS sale, they are a Level III partner, there are a lot more strings attached.

This is why Erdogan is betting on the US backing down.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/03/70922296 ... er-to-blin
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is showing no signs of yielding to the United States. He says he remains interested in getting the Patriot missile system but insists the S-400 deal with Russia is done and Turkey is not turning back. "Nobody," Erdogan told one Turkish TV interviewer, "should ask us to lick up what we spat."

"This is a very rocky relationship," says Asli Aydintasbas, an Istanbul-based senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations.

As Erdogan frenetically campaigned across Turkey in the lead-up to municipal elections held Sunday, she adds, at "each and every rally he [brought] up S-400s, saying, 'We're going to buy it; they told me not to buy it' — almost making it look like it's a sign of his virility, his independence, his power on the world stage that he could say no to [the] United States."


Turkey doesn't need to be paid back. They need to be kicked to the road like they did with the 4th Infantry Division during Iraqi Freedom. Trump should remind them of this when we keep their F-35s.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2019, 00:21
by marsavian
I'm pleased that buffoon is not hiding his idiotic vain stupidity, Israel and Greece thank him along with the rest of sane NATO.

https://jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict ... 585634/amp

According to foreign reports, Israel has already quietly tested ways to defeat the advanced Russian air defense system, participating in several joint drills with the Greek Air Force over the island of Crete where one S-300 system is stationed. The drills have reportedly allowed Israeli warplanes to gather data on how the advanced system may be blinded or fooled.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2019, 16:01
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:I'm pleased that buffoon is not hiding his idiotic vain stupidity, Israel and Greece thank him along with the rest of sane NATO.

https://jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict ... 585634/amp

According to foreign reports, Israel has already quietly tested ways to defeat the advanced Russian air defense system, participating in several joint drills with the Greek Air Force over the island of Crete where one S-300 system is stationed. The drills have reportedly allowed Israeli warplanes to gather data on how the advanced system may be blinded or fooled.


Beautiful.

Because if they know it, we know it...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2019, 16:26
by loke
"Turkey must choose. Does it want to remain a critical partner of the most successful military alliance in the history of the world? Or does it want to risk the security of that partnership by making reckless decisions that undermine our alliance?" Pence said Wednesday.

His comments drew a sharp response from his Turkish counterpart who issued an ultimatum of his own, demanding the US end its support for Kurdish groups in Syria who have fought ISIS.

"The United States must choose. Does it want to remain Turkey's ally or risk our friendship by joining forces with terrorists to undermine its NATO ally's defense against its enemies?" Turkey's Vice President Fuat Oktay wrote on Twitter.


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/03/poli ... index.html

Quite an escalation... To my knowledge this is the first time a high-level US official have questioned the Turkish NATO membership in an official statement!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2019, 22:22
by spazsinbad
Trump may ‘take care’ of F-35, S-400 issue, Turkish official claims
03 Apr 2019

"...Çavuşoğlu also claimed that U.S. President Donald Trump has opened the door to keeping F-35 sales to Turkey going, despite a Pentagon statement this week that the Department of Defense was cutting off delivery of parts for the plane, needed in advance of Turkey taking the jets into service this summer, due to the S-400 issue.

Top U.S. and alliance officials have said the S-400 cannot be allowed to tie into any NATO systems, but the F-35 in particular, given its importance to a number of allied nations for at least the next thirty years.

Çavuşoğlu sidestepped repeated questions about what impact losing the industrial participation of the F-35 program could have on Turkey’s economy, saying “we are a part of this program. It should be that simple.” But notably, he expressed a belief that the F-35 sales will eventually turn back on, noting “different statements are coming from different institutions of the United States as well… different and contradictory statements are coming.”

Asked what he meant, Çavuşoğlu claimed that a phone call “recently” from U.S. President Donald Trump to Turkish President Recep Erdoğan involved Trump promising that he “would take care of this issue.” [bold lie?]

In response, a senior administration official said, “We have been clear and consistent in emphasizing our grave concerns on the S-400 acquisition with representatives of the Turkish government on numerous occasions and at the highest levels.”

And speaking at the same venue several hours later, Vice President Mike Pence indicated there was no change in the U.S. posture towards the S-400, saying “Turkey must choose. Does it want to remain a critical partner in the most successful military alliance in history or does it want to risk the security of that partnership” through Russian technology.

Çavuşoğlu said Turkey has also proposed a technical working group inside NATO to figure out how to keep the S-400 firewalled off from other systems, saying “it doesn’t have to be integrated to a NATO system, and that is not our aim. This is for our own use.” “This is an urgent need of Turkey. We need air defense systems urgently… because of the traffic in the neighborhood. Everybody has missiles in the neighboring countries, in Syria, in others. NATO is not capable enough to cover our airspace yet,” the minister added...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... al-claims/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2019, 22:25
by elshad
Maybe Turkey can give the S-400 to their new friends Pakistan and in return accept the new Patriot offer from the U.S.

It would allow them to get the F-35, save face (by claiming they got a great deal for the Patriots) and not damage relations with Russia (as the S-400 is still being delivered)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Apr 2019, 22:47
by spazsinbad
Parts Delays Impacting F-35 Production, Turkey Situation Likely to Make it Worse
04 Apr 2019 Brian Everstine​

"F-35 production lines are facing long delays in parts deliveries, a fact that would be exacerbated if Turkey is removed from the program and Turkish parts providers are cut off from the supply chain, the head of the joint program office told lawmakers on Thursday.

F-35 Program Executive Vice Adm. Mat Winter said Lockheed Martin’s F-35 production line in Fort Worth, Texas, is an average of 200 parts late each month. That means work related to these parts is pushed later on in the production line instead of a work stoppage, which is causing “a lot of extra management, extra touch, and extra work that has to occur” and is “driving that price up,” he told the House Armed Services subcommittee on tactical and land forces on Thursday.

The strategy going forward is to reduce strain on the parts providers by having them only produce new parts for the production lines and spares, and have depots focus on repairs, Winter said. Previously the providers were responsible for all three….

...The recent controversy regarding Turkey’s involvement in the program could exacerbate the problem, Winter said. Turkey is moving forward with purchasing the Russian-made S-400 missile system, which US officials say endangers the country’s future with the F-35 because they do not want the US-made fifth generation fighter operating alongside the Russian system or Russian operators.

There are seven companies inside Turkey that produce parts, which combined equal about 6-7 percent of the total F-35 supply chain, Winter said. “Right now there’s no disruption to the supply chain from any partners,” but if Turkey is cut off from the program, that would interrupt the flow of parts, not only to the Fort Worth line, but also production facilities in Italy and Japan, Winter said. There would be an impact within 45-90 days of slowing down the delivery of parts, potentially causing a delay that would impact 50-75 airplanes over a two-year time period, he added."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... Worse.aspx

Turkey: S-400 is a “Done Deal,” But That Shouldn’t Impact F-35 Participation
03 Apr 2019 Brian Everstine

"[more 'he said / she said' - Russia has done a good job driving a wedge between Turkey & NATO to derail the F-35 RAMP]

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... ation.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 21:37
by charlielima223
As I am seeing and reading this whole thing I can't help but think this is a business deal gone bad.

As a layman this is how I am seeing it...
Big business deal (F-35 program) with multiple partners (US, UK, Italy Netherlands, Australia, Denmark, Canada, Norway, and Turkey). All partners within the business deal have a say and interest in the security of the business. Business deal has potential to create a lucrative profit through additional partners/buyers (Japan, South Korea, Israel, and Belgium). One of the business partners (Turkey) makes a deal with a rival business competitor (Russia). This deal compromises the business itself the the prospect for future sales.

In a regular business with multiple partners and investors involved, if one of the investors/partners goes against the others by acting in a way that damages/compromises the business; then it is within the interest of the others as well as the business to oust the investor/partner that damaged or compromised the business.

Am I missing anything?

Also why can't the US Military offer to buy the F-35As. Wouldn't that allow them to increase the production rate all while having more F-35's in their fleet? Why can't they take the F-35As at Luke AFB assigned to Turkey and offer to sell it to other more interested parties?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Apr 2019, 22:46
by SpudmanWP
The disposition of the already built F-35s is not the primary issue. Most of the problem will be concentrated in the area of replacing the production sources for the parts that cam from Turkey (6% of the total IIRC).

Without seeing the actual contracts, I can't speak to what will happen to the already in production or already built Turkish F-35s.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2019, 01:18
by spazsinbad
LOOONNGGG article so excerpts probably won't do it justice... BEST READ AT SOURCE.
Here’s how F-35 technology would be compromised if Turkey also had the S-400 anti-aircraft system
05 Apr 2019 Kyle Rempfer

"...the systems its [Turkey] leaders are looking to acquire could be used to gather intelligence on how America’s latest generation fighter, the F-35, and possibly others, operate. That information could then end up in the hands of the Russians. “It’s astounding to see everyone in the same direction on this,” said Rick Berger, a defense budget and military acquisition researcher at AEI and former Senate Budget Committee staffer....

The technical risks
If Turkey acquired the S-400 alongside the F-35, the technology that makes that aircraft lethal could potentially be compromised. NATO states use a tactical data link that allows military aircraft and even ships and ground troops to share their tactical pictures in near-real time. This is called Link 16. NATO aircraft also use Identification Friend or Foe systems, known as IFF, to identify friendly aircraft in the sky.

An IFF and Link 16 interrogator would have to be integrated into the S-400 system to allow the Turkish F-35, with the transponder, to fly within lethal range of the S-400. This opens up all Link 16 and IFF tactical data link equipment to be compromised, a former radar and weapons expert said on background.

“With the F-35 flying in close proximity to the S-400 system, over time, you could collect sensitive stealth characteristics of this F-35 and learn its detailed stealth capabilities,” the expert said. The waveform off the Lightning II’s stealthy surfaces and its transmissions are highly classified in order to protect radar operating parameters, stealth technology and encrypted Link 16 codes. For instance, “when you know the waveform, you can spoof them," sending a fake signal to a receiver in order to trick an operator.

The concern is not necessarily that the Turkish military would compromise this sensitive data, but instead that malware on the S-400 or Russian workers operating, setting up or maintaining the system would access the info. These S-400s are highly networked, with nodes spanning hundreds of miles. There would be multiple, vulnerable nodes that could potentially broadcast sensitive data back to Russia or, perhaps, the highest bidder. Even operating U.S. Air Force F-35s out of Incirlik Air Base could become difficult if an S-400 was nearby....

...It will also cost Turkey, though. After all, the F-35 program is good for the Turkish economy and industrial base. “I don’t know if they understand whether they got taken by the Russians on this,” Berger said. “Yeah, the S-400 is a great system, but the price [Turkish leaders] are going to pay is massive."

The decision to buy the S-400 appears to be largely about showing that Turkey isn’t beholden to the West, Berger said. But Turkey could have made the same point by buying something else from the Russians. “We’re not tiptoeing to ‘Do you want to be in NATO or aligned with the Russians?’ " he added. "This is basically the end of the road: the most salient military trade-off that they could make.”"

Source: https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... ft-system/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2019, 10:26
by spazsinbad
Two short articles on ONE PDF page attached below from the 9-15 Apr 2019 FLIGHT International. Nice take away quote:
"It boggles the mind why Turkey would wish to weaken the defences of an aircraft it plans to buy in such abundance"

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2019, 15:23
by ricnunes
elshad wrote:Maybe Turkey can give the S-400 to their new friends Pakistan and in return accept the new Patriot offer from the U.S.

It would allow them to get the F-35, save face (by claiming they got a great deal for the Patriots) and not damage relations with Russia (as the S-400 is still being delivered)


That would be an interesting solution for this situation.
It wouldn't be much different to when the the Republic of Cyprus bought S-300s and then the Turks threatened to invade the non-Turkish Cyprus (Republic of Cyprus) - The solution was to give the purchased S-300s to Greece (in exchange for other weaponry).

Although IMO the problem with Turkey currently goes farther than this S-400 deal - Erdogan's stance and politics (to the point of sometimes being "Anti-West") aren't helping in any way.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2019, 22:13
by spazsinbad
Pentagon nixes Turkish offer to address S-400 fears
04 Apr 2019 Jack Detsch

"Article Summary
The Pentagon will not consider a Turkish proposal to create a bilateral working group to temper US fears over Ankara’s looming acquisition of the Russian S-400 air defense system....

...Despite the rising tensions, the United States continues to proceed with Turkish training on the F-35 in hopes that Ankara may come around on the S-400. The Pentagon today delivered two more of the jets to Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, where Turkish pilots are training on the jets before they are flown back to Turkey and formally handed over to Ankara....

...Meanwhile, Russia and Turkey remain in talks over the delivery date for S-400 parts, originally slated for May. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is set to meet with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin in Moscow next week."

Source: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... soglu.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Apr 2019, 15:11
by loke
President Tayyip Erdogan said on Friday that Turkey was continuing to make payments under its deal with Russia to buy S-400 missile defence systems and the United States had not presented the same terms when it offered to sell the rival Patriot missile system, reported Reuters.

“The S-400 holds an important place in our talks. The United States’ arguments are very wrong. We finished the S-400 process and our payments continue,” Erdogan told reporters in Istanbul when asked about planned talks in Moscow next week.


https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190 ... us-stance/

No de-escalation yet...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Apr 2019, 16:09
by marsavian
“penny wise, pound foolish.”

Enjoy your cheap S-400/Su-57 then Sultan ...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Apr 2019, 20:25
by durahawk
marsavian wrote:“penny wise, pound foolish.”

Enjoy your cheap S-400/Su-57 then Sultan ...


The S-400 is anything but cheap... With regards to cost or capability.

The mush flanker is a different story.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2019, 04:00
by Corsair1963
So, Turkey would like us to believe. That they are willing to trade the F-35 for the S-400!


Yet, what do they think about Greece acquiring the F-35??? :wink:

Greece to consider F-35 purchase

VASSILIS NEDOS

The acquisition by Greece of US-made F-35 fighter jets will hinge on the country’s fiscal plans and Washington’s ability to offer a long-term payment framework, reliable sources said Friday.

The possibility of Greece acquiring the Lockheed Martin jets as part of its efforts to upgrade the Hellenic Air Force fleet, was raised Friday by Defense Minister Evangelos Apostolakis, following remarks on Thursday by a US official about the possibility of selling the aircraft to more countries.

More specifically, Vice Admiral Mathias Winter, head of the Pentagon’s F-35 office, told Congress on Thursday that sales of the jets could be expanded to include five new countries – Singapore, Spain, Romania, Greece and Poland.

“Beyond the upgrade of the F-16 fighter jets, we are in the process of selecting a new plane for Greece, so we can gradually move to the new generation of aircraft,” Apostolakis told journalists during a visit to Andravida Air Base in the western Peloponnese.

“The statement by the US Congress helps in this perspective. We will examine it, all the elements, and see what will happen,” he added.

Sources said that given Greece’s fiscal constraints, the purchase of the fighter jets will depend on whether it can pay for them over a time period ranging from six to eight years.
For the time being, Greece has sent a letter of request for price and availability to Lockheed Martin for between 25 and 30 jets.

Greek interest comes at a time of growing tensions between the US and Turkey over Ankara’s acquisition of Russian missile defense systems, which Washington opposes.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/239304/arti ... ayhuC_CCtM

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2019, 04:52
by spazsinbad
:doh: Would TURKEY not having the F-35 BUT Greece having some make OK nice noise in Turkey? Good one GREECE. :devil:

:roll: Anyhoo another DEFspiral. :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2019, 10:57
by loke
As Turkey moves forward with the controversial purchase of Russia's most sophisticated and advanced air defense systems, some State Department and Department of Defense officials are privately blaming President Donald Trump for failing to issue a tough ultimatum over the proposed sale, sources with knowledge of the matter tell ABC News.

Since Erdogan has been personally negotiating the sale, there was hope that pressure from Trump could kill the deal.

But during a Feb. 22 call between the two leaders, Erdogan pushed back against Trump's threat of sanctions, suggesting Congress was infringing on the president's executive power by issuing sanctions against Turkey over the deal, according to three U.S. officials briefed on the conversation.

Erdogan allegedly told Trump that the possibility of sanctions from Congress under Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act or CAATSA, is "unconstitutional" because "it takes away your executive power," according to two officials briefed on the call.

Trump responded that he'd talk to Congress, according to two of the officials who had knowledge of the conversation and then moved on from the topic.

The president's response "wasn't framed so that Erdogan saw what was at stake," said another official about the call.

Turkish Foreign Affairs Minister Mevlut Çavuşoğlu hinted at the mixed messages coming from the administration on Wednesday when he claimed that during the same phone call, Trump promised Erdogan he "would take care of the issue."

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/amid-tu ... d=62230959

Trump should spend more time on the golf course and less time talking to people like Erdogan and Putin...!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 20:45
by spazsinbad
Top US lawmakers demand Turkey choose: America’s F-35, or Russia’s S-400
09 Apr 2019 Joe Gould

"WASHINGTON — Top U.S. lawmakers are threatening to pass legislation that would bar NATO ally Turkey from buying the F-35 fighter jet, and sanction the country if it buys the Russian S-400 air defense system, ratcheting pressure via a New York Times op-ed on Tuesday.

If Turkey accepts the S-400, “no F-35s will ever reach Turkish soil. And Turkish participation in the F-35 program, including manufacturing parts, repairing and servicing the fighters, will be terminated, taking Turkish companies out of the manufacturing and supply chain for the program,” wrote the bipartisan leaders of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

“We are committed to taking all necessary legislative action to ensure this is the case. Turkey is an important partner in the F-35 program, but it is not irreplaceable,” the lawmakers added.

The letter targets Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s decision-making calculus, emphasizing economic costs if Turkey loses co-production of the Lockheed Martin-made F-35 and geopolitical costs if Erdogan steps toward Moscow and away from NATO. The letter is also a signal to Erdogan that he cannot rely on personal diplomatic efforts by U.S. President Donald Trump, as Congress will stand in the way….

...If Erdogan accepts delivery of the S-400, “Turkey will be sanctioned as required by United States law under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act. Sanctions will hit Turkey’s economy hard — rattling international markets, scaring away foreign direct investment and crippling Turkey’s aerospace and defense industry,” the lawmakers warn.

Among the “severe consequences” if Turkey abandons (or is forced to abandon) the F-35 program, its $1.25 billion-plus investment “will be squandered” and “it will not receive the more than 100 F-35s it planned to purchase, and it will be forced to settle for a less-capable fighter aircraft that will not arrive for many years,” according to the senators.

“Turkish companies that produce parts for the F-35 will see their orders dry up completely. Its F-35 engine maintenance, repair, overhaul, and upgrade facility will see all its work go to other facilities in Europe,” they wrote. “President Erdogan’s hope to make the Turkish defense industry a key pillar of economic growth for the future will be dashed.”

They commit to “do all we can to assist Turkey” if Erdogan walks away from the S-400 and if Russian President Vladimir Putin retaliates in economic sectors where Ankara relies on Moscow. Putin, they say, “is trying to divide Turkey from the West with the S-400s." “Mr. Putin fears and respects a Turkey strategically anchored in the West and committed to NATO,” they wrote. “We hope President Erdogan will choose that future for Turkey by rejecting Mr. Putin’s divisive S-400 ploy, meeting its air defense requirement with the Patriot system and moving forward as a critical partner in the F-35 program.”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... ias-s-400/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 20:59
by marsavian
They just need 2/3 majority in both chambers of Congress and Trump can't veto it. Big decision time for Sultan baby !

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 23:59
by Corsair1963
spazsinbad wrote:
Top US lawmakers demand Turkey choose: America’s F-35, or Russia’s S-400
09 Apr 2019 Joe Gould

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... ias-s-400/



Old saying.........."fish or cut bait" :|

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 11:57
by loke
Turkey’s procurement of the Russian S-400 air defense systems is in its delivery stage, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has said, reiterating Ankara’s stance on the issue despite a rising opposition from its NATO ally United States.

“The agreement concerning the S-400 [missiles] is a done deal, we are today at the point of delivery. The calendar for deliveries is proceeding and they will come in accordance with this calendar, as it was declared earlier,” Erdoğan told a group of journalists aboard a presidential plane on his way back to Turkey from a summit with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin on April 8.

Turkish ministers are frequently facing questions on the S-400 issue, the president noted.

“As you know, the issue is not limited to Turkey and it is on the agenda of the whole world,” Erdoğan said.
“We tell them that this issue is finalized and everything is ready,’” he said.

Washington last week reportedly suspended Turkey’s participation in the ongoing F-35 fighter-jet program, in which Turkey has invested over $1 billion as a recent tool to force Turkey to step back from buying Russian systems. However, Pentagon said on April 4 that transfer of one of Turkey’s two F-35 jets to Luke Air Force Base in Arizona was delivered to Turkish pilots for training, in addition to two other jets delivered last year.

Erdoğan confirmed that a fourth jet was delivered to Turkey on April 8.

“Trainings continue,” Erdoğan said, adding that a team of four pilots were taking part in the mission under a brigadier general.

Turkey is also undertaking preparations for the arrival of the jets from Arizona to Turkey.

“There are no negative statements over the F-35s today,” Erdoğan said, adding that Defense Minister Hulusi Akar and Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, who met with his U.S. counterpart Mike Pompeo last week, recently held talks on the issue.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdoga ... age-142547

See highlighted text. Incredible -- does Erdogan really believe that the US is bluffing!?? Or is he just lying to the Turkish electorate??? Who knows... In any case, this does not look good at all.
The delivery of the S-400 missile defense system was supposed to be in July, it may be done earlier," the president said.


https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/20 ... -countries

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 12:07
by loke
If the U.S. refuses to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey, it could buy more Russian S-400 missiles or other air defense systems, according to Turkey's foreign minister.

Speaking to news channel NTV on Wednesday, Mevlut Cavusoglu hit back at U.S. criticisms of the S-400 purchase, saying that some NATO countries already have earlier generation S-300 missiles but this does not conflict with their NATO membership.

"If the U.S. refuses to sell us Patriots, tomorrow we could buy a second S-400, or another air defense system," he said.

Rebuffing U.S. threats to cancel a deal for F-35 jets if the S-400s are delivered, Cavusoglu said in the absence of F-35s, Turkey could buy fighters jets from another source until it is able to produce its own.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/if-us ... 0s/1447600

To me this looks more and more like the beginning of the end of the US-Turkish alliance, and perhaps also the Turkish NATO membership...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Apr 2019, 18:58
by ricnunes
loke wrote:
If the U.S. refuses to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey, it could buy more Russian S-400 missiles or other air defense systems, according to Turkey's foreign minister.

Speaking to news channel NTV on Wednesday, Mevlut Cavusoglu hit back at U.S. criticisms of the S-400 purchase, saying that some NATO countries already have earlier generation S-300 missiles but this does not conflict with their NATO membership.

"If the U.S. refuses to sell us Patriots, tomorrow we could buy a second S-400, or another air defense system," he said.

Rebuffing U.S. threats to cancel a deal for F-35 jets if the S-400s are delivered, Cavusoglu said in the absence of F-35s, Turkey could buy fighters jets from another source until it is able to produce its own.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/if-us ... 0s/1447600

To me this looks more and more like the beginning of the end of the US-Turkish alliance, and perhaps also the Turkish NATO membership...


Agreed.
Specially regarding the last part of your article quote, I would say that if that's true then that's already more than a reason for Turkey to be expelled from the JSF/F-35 program, this IMO of course.
Let them buy the Su-57 instead (of the F-35), LOL! :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 01:18
by madrat
Turkey had a hand in both World Wars. They are only being their natural selves. Erdogan still believes in his Ottoman Empire revival.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 21:06
by spazsinbad
How Turkey’s industry could suffer from the S-400 deal with Russia
11 Apr 2019 Burak Ege Bekdil

"...Ankara remains defiant. Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said April 10 that the country could open negotiations with Russia to purchase a second batch of S-400s.

A U.S. diplomatic source has told Defense News that the direct cost of U.S. sanctions on the Turkish industry could reach $10 billion. “And that excludes indirect costs,” he added.

Turkey is a partner is the multinational, American-led Joint Strike Fighter program that builds the F-35. Turkey has committed to purchase more than 100 new-generation jets. Several Turkish companies are producing parts for the JSF program, including airframe structure and assemblies, landing gear components, and more than 100 F135 engine production parts to include titanium-integrated blade rotors....

..U.S. sanctions could potentially target senior procurement officials and prominent Turkish companies participating in the S-400 contract. “That would create a second wave of sanctions … by curbing and halting Turkish companies’ international programs and deals, including know-how, with non-U.S. (but Western) defense entities,” the American source said. “Here we are talking about another heavy damage in addition to the dismissal from the F-35 program.”

Additionally, the U.S. may disrupt Turkey’s current and future systems export efforts, including those for the T129 attack helicopter, built by TAI under license from the Italian-British firm AgustaWestland. The T129, based on its predecessor, the A129 Mangusta, is a twin-engine multirole attack helicopter....

...A Turkish aerospace industry executive admitted that the U.S. sanctions could hurt the Turkish industry, but said the damage would not be “too punishing.” “The talk of over $10 billion in potential losses is a gross exaggeration to increase pressure on the Turkish government.”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... th-russia/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 15:20
by loke
It’s Not Too Late to Stop Turkey From Realigning With Russia

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/11/it ... gan-trump/

Not sure if I agree with this op-ed....

In other news:
A new Senate bill, introduced Tuesday by Republican Marco Rubio and Democrat Robert Menendez, aims to reshape U.S. policy toward a corner of the world that, thanks to big energy discoveries, Russian military adventures, and Turkish ambivalence, has become a potential big-power flash point. The bill is a grab bag of some old U.S. ideas—such as helping speed the development of newly abundant offshore natural gas resources in the region—leavened with a much tougher line toward Turkey, a longtime ally.

Specifically, the bill would end the three-decade U.S. arms embargo on Cyprus meant to make the divided island’s reunification easier, a way to both tweak Turkey and offer an alternative to Russian military hardware, and it specifically warns Turkey not to interfere with energy exploration in its neighborhood, as it has in the past with Cyprus. The bill would also boost military cooperation with Cyprus and Greece; accelerate the exploitation and export of big energy finds in the region; cement the nascent U.S. alignment with Greece, Israel, and Cyprus; and try to force Turkey out of Russia’s embrace—or out of America’s.

Turkey, a key member of NATO since 1952, has in recent years crept closer to Russia, signing huge contracts in the energy sector and deepening defense cooperation. Most recently, Turkey has moved ahead with plans to buy a Russian-made air defense system, a decision that U.S. Vice President Mike Pence last week called “reckless” and which U.S. officials say could jeopardize American defense capabilities and the broader relationship. The new Senate bill includes a measure to ban the transfer to Turkey of advanced U.S. F-35 fighter jets if the country goes ahead with the purchase of the Russian-made S-400 air defense system. (On Wednesday, Turkey said it would accelerate the delivery of the controversial weapons.)

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/10/u- ... to-ankara/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 15:37
by mixelflick
We should just call it now for what it is..

1.) Turkey won't be getting the F-35 and;
2.) Turkey's days as a member of NATO are numbered

This isn't very surprising, and once NATO's out Turkey will serve as an ideal forward operating base from which to attack Israel. It's coming, just watch...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 16:21
by marsavian
USA just definitively made a geopolitical choice, Israel and its close Christian allies Greece and Cyprus, over Turkey. I hope Sultan's posturing and independence was worth it because as the famous song goes ... freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose ...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 20:58
by elshad
More generally, rising anti-Americanism is a real problem in Turkey. Whenever I look at Turkey-related Twitter or YouTube comments it's full of things like "bye bye USA bye bye NATO" and full of insane conspiracy theories.

loke wrote:http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdogan-s-400-deal-with-russia-in-delivery-stage-142547

See highlighted text. Incredible -- does Erdogan really believe that the US is bluffing!?? Or is he just lying to the Turkish electorate??? Who knows... In any case, this does not look good at all.


Just as an example, the 2nd guy on the left in that photo is responsible for writing insane sh*t like this: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/columns/ib ... ll-2042300

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 20:12
by marsavian
Crazy conspiracy ideas that you would not even dream of thinking up but now prevalent among Erdogan and his team. Sadly it makes the Iranian and North Korean leadership look borderline sane ! Smh :(

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 14:03
by jakobs
“I hear, however, that there are some people in Erdogan’s circle who do see the looming train wreck, understand that Turkey will get the worst of it, and are looking for workarounds, such as taking delivery of the S-400 batteries and then mothballing them.”


https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... 0-f35.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Apr 2019, 14:11
by marsavian
http://www.ekathimerini.com/239631/opin ... -diplomacy

The Greek pov

We are already hearing about a range of scenarios that could form the basis of a compromise. Athens was informed some time ago that Turkey may eventually buy the S-400 missile systems but store them in Azerbaijan. This would allow Erdogan to save face and the US would be able to proceed with the delivery of the F-35s.

It is too soon to draw any conclusions. The Greek government understands the problem and is trying to keep the lines of communication with the palace in Ankara open as bureaucrats there have also been sidelined. In any case, it is certainly very important for Greece and the US to have a solid relationship that does not depend on relations between the US and Turkey.

A top official remembers that when Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras met Trump at the White House and started presenting evidence on Turkey’s aggression, the answer was rather disarming: “Erdogan is an OK guy and good for business.”

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2019, 10:31
by spazsinbad
Russia would be Turkey’s ‘first best choice’ for fighter jets if its F-35 plan flops
19 Apr 2019 Burak Ege Bekdil

"ANKARA, Turkey — If U.S. officials were to expel Turkey from the multinational group that builds the F-35 Lightning II, Turkish defense officials said they likely would pursue Russian fighter jet technology. “We cannot afford to leave the F-35 not substituted,” a senior military officer told Defense news....

...Turkey insists the first S-400 shipments would arrive in July and the first S-400 system would become operational in September. A Turkish presidential source said that potential Turkish-Russian cooperation on fighter technology was “preliminarily discussed” between their respective defense officials during Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s visit to Moscow on April 8.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Çavusoglu told broadcaster NTV on Apri 10: “There are F-35[s], but there are also aircraft manufactured in Russia. If we are not able to purchase [the] F-35, Turkey will buy similar aircraft from other countries. And this will continue until we start producing our own fifth-generation fighter jets.” Such a move would make Turkey the only NATO member to simultaneously use the S-400 and Russian fighter.

“This is not a useful dispute for the alliance,” asserted an Ankara-based European Union military attache. “What we observe today could push Turkey further into Russia’s military orbit … and we don’t want that.”...

...Russia’s isn’t the only alternative for the F-35. In 2015, Turkey’s procurement authorities released a request for information for the TF-X, the country’s indigenous fighter jet program. Sweden’s Saab was one of the bidders to supply know-how for the initial design phase of the program, but Ankara selected Britain’s BAE Systems for that contract.

“Saab’s commitment to technology transfer was very generous, but its price was expensive at the time,” a Turkish official recalled. “Saab could now revise its bid and incorporate it into the new [no F-35] situation,” he said. Another option for Turkey is Airbus, a partner in the Eurofighter program based in the Netherlands and France, the official added."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... lan-flops/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Apr 2019, 21:47
by loke
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia will start delivering its S-400 missile defense systems to Turkey in July, the head of Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport said, according to Interfax news agency.

“Everything has been already discussed and agreed,” Alexander Mikheev told Interfax.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKCN1S01H5

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 16:30
by zerion
Erdogan Says F-35 Project Would Collapse Without Turkey

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/artic ... out-turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 16:44
by SpudmanWP
Collapse... from laughing too hard maybe :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Apr 2019, 20:47
by loke
LOL, this was indeed funny -- perhaps next week Erdogan will declare that he simply cannot let the F-35 program collapse and therefore he will sacrifice the S-400 purchase to save the F-35 from collapsing! (I am joking.... I think...)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2019, 00:59
by marsavian
He is just not that bright, a delusional tyrant who I predict will throw an almighty tantrum when F-35 is denied him for real just like a baby throwing toys out of a pram. If at the end of that tantrum Turkey is still in NATO is 50/50.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2019, 08:55
by loke
Turkish presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalın and U.S. National Security Advisor John Bolton discussed the Russian S-400 air defense system via telephone Tuesday, according to presidential sources

https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/20 ... -to-turkey

So there is still a possibility that this can be resolved...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2019, 09:57
by Corsair1963
loke wrote:
Turkish presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalın and U.S. National Security Advisor John Bolton discussed the Russian S-400 air defense system via telephone Tuesday, according to presidential sources

https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/20 ... -to-turkey

So there is still a possibility that this can be resolved...



As I've said countless times. I believe they will work out a deal in the end. Just to much at stake for both sides. Especially, Turkey as a split with the West would be "crushing".

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2019, 10:23
by loke
Well, there are many issues -- if the US really designate the MB as a terrorist organization, this will become another issue between Turkey and the US -- Erdogan is AFAIK quite close to the MB....

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/30/poli ... index.html

To be frank, unless there is a new more "western friendly" leadership in Turkey in the not too distant future I am still concerned that there will be a major split. There is a lot of anti-Western sentiment in Turkey these days, and Erdogan seems to push this as well... which does not help. In addition, many in the US and europe are very sceptical about the direction Turkey seems to be moving in...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2019, 13:18
by madrat
My biggest concerns with arming Turkey is the same as arming Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf neighbors. The combined spending of these countries is alarming and far overshadows the need to thwart an Iranian aggression. History points to this region of the world coming together for expansion of their common religion. Israel is surrounded by quite a large sum of opposing forces and I'd hate for them to gain any more closer to a resemblance of an edge on the IAF. Israel is the West's sole counterweight in the region. We really need the Kurds to be a second counterweight even if it means pissing off the Turks. A hundred years ago the Turks were essentially intent on reviving the Ottoman empire. When the Iron Curtain came down this medieval dream reawakened. The unsettled 'Balkans' has remained a tinderbox predominately as a result of this very public dream.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 May 2019, 18:31
by loke
madrat wrote:My biggest concerns with arming Turkey is the same as arming Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf neighbors. The combined spending of these countries is alarming and far overshadows the need to thwart an Iranian aggression. History points to this region of the world coming together for expansion of their common religion. Israel is surrounded by quite a large sum of opposing forces and I'd hate for them to gain any more closer to a resemblance of an edge on the IAF. Israel is the West's sole counterweight in the region. We really need the Kurds to be a second counterweight even if it means pissing off the Turks. A hundred years ago the Turks were essentially intent on reviving the Ottoman empire. When the Iron Curtain came down this medieval dream reawakened. The unsettled 'Balkans' has remained a tinderbox predominately as a result of this very public dream.

Although I share many of your concerns, I am not (yet) that pessimistic -- although there are strong anti-Western forces in Turkey that probably would not mind getting out of both F-35 and NATO, there still remains many Turks that are more positive to the West. THe issue is, that if there is a split between Turkey and the West, and they drop out of F-35 and also NATO, then most likely they will move over to "the other side".... which could be a disaster for Turkey, the whole of ME, and Europe and the US. And of course Israel.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2019, 22:29
by loke
Published
03.05.2019
23:30

Acting U.S. Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan reiterated his country's opposition to Turkey's purchase of the Russian S-400 missile defense system, saying that Pentagon will halt manufacturing support for the F-35.

Shanahan told journalists the government remained steadfast in its opposition to Turkey's adoption of the S-400 anti-aircraft technology.

https://www.dailysabah.com/diplomacy/20 ... nahan-says
2 hours ago
WASHINGTON — Key House lawmakers announced their bill Friday to bar the sale of the F-35 warplane to Turkey if Ankara buys the Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile system.

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... or-turkey/

Turkey cannot any longer claim that they receive "mixed messages" from the US... (well, with the qualifier that the US President may muddle the water, as he as done before...)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2019, 05:44
by spazsinbad
Lawmakers offer bill to block F-35 for Turkey
03 May 2019 Joe Gould

"WASHINGTON — Key House lawmakers announced their bill Friday to bar the sale of the F-35 warplane to Turkey if Ankara buys the Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile system.

The bipartisan trio of senior House Armed Services Committee members — Reps. Mike Turner, R-Ohio; John Garamendi, D-Calif., and Paul Cook, R-Calif., sponsored the bill, a companion to a bipartisan bill from Sen. James Lankford, R-Kan., and others. Both bills are called the “Protecting NATO Skies Act of 2019.”

“Operating the S-400 alongside the F-35 would compromise the aircraft and its sensitive technology, impact interoperability among NATO allies, and most importantly pose serious risk to our shared defense and security," Garamendi said in a statement. "This bill sends a strong and important message to Turkey — proceeding with the S-400 is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.”...

...U.S. officials say the Russian defense system could pose a threat to the F-35 program and have warned of consequences if the purchase is finalized. Turkey denies that the system is a threat [WAIT... WUT?!] and has proposed a joint committee to review security risks....

...However, after months of warnings, Washington stopped delivery of F-35 fighter jet parts to Turkey last month in retaliation for Ankara’s decision to move ahead with the purchase of a Russian surface-to-air missile system.

Last month, Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., and ranking member Jack Reed, D-R.I., penned a New York Times op-ed with Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Jim Risch, R-Idaho, and ranking member Bob Menendez, D-N.J., threatening legislation that would bar Turkey from both the F-35 and S-400."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... or-turkey/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2019, 07:24
by loke
Spazinbad, I linked to that article in the post just above your post....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2019, 08:59
by spazsinbad
Missed it - excusez-moi. :doh: However some more quotes from it were posted that are relevant nestpas? :roll:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2019, 13:02
by mixelflick
At this point, I wouldn't give them the F-35 even if they don't acquire the S-400.

Just imagine how miffed they'd be, and what they'd do with their F-35's and its secrets..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2019, 13:10
by madrat
The US needs to stop propping up faux partners, especially ones that are influenced by the Asian gangs trying to subvert our policies.

The funny thing about defining threats out there is obfuscation of what and whom are threats. American society is being perverted in a way that blunts their ability to fight obvious external influences. Our younger generations need catching up on reality.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2019, 15:29
by loke
Turkey rejects the statement by EU’s High Representative/Vice-President Federica Mogherini calling on Turkey “to show restraint, respect the sovereign rights of Cyprus in its exclusive economic zone and refrain from any such illegal action to which the European Union will respond appropriately and in full solidarity with Cyprus.”

In a statement, Turkey’s foreign ministry insists that it has “legitimate rights stemming from international law” to engage in hydrocarbon exploration activities and accuses the “Greek Cypriot Administration” of “irresponsibly jeopardizing” the area’s security and stability.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/240125/arti ... off-cyprus
Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar reiterated Sunday the hardline stance on drilling inside Cyprus' Exclusive Economic Stance expressed Saturday by the country's foreign ministry.

Akar told Anadolu News Agency that Ankara is determined to protect its rights in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Aegean Sea under international law.

“As a guarantor country, Turkey is determined to always protect the rights of the people of Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) and not to allow the fait accompli," Akar added.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/240129/arti ... -eu-summit

Then there is this:
Turkey condemned the participation of a Greek Cypriot representative to NATO's change of command ceremony on May 3.
The invitation to the Greek Cyprus administration, which is not a NATO member, to the change of command ceremony is inexplicable, said Foreign Ministry spokesman Hami Aksoy.

"We condemn the unilateral behavior of SHAPE headquarters. We recall that these headquarters are under the political control of NATO members including Turkey," Aksoy said.

Turkey boycotted NATO's change of command ceremony on May 3 to protest against the participation of a Greek Cypriot representative.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... ent-143147

Coincidence?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2019, 18:09
by loke
ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey will never bow to U.S. sanctions over its agreement to purchase Russian S-400 surface-to-air missile defense systems, Vice President Fuat Oktay said on Sunday regarding a deal that has strained ties between the NATO allies.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKCN1SB06J
It seems Turkey is not able or not willing to get out of the mess they have created!? It now seems likely to me that they will drop out of the F-35 program...! The implications will be huge, for the US, Turkey, and Europe...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 May 2019, 19:28
by SpudmanWP
As they say, "Pride cometh before the fall".

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2019, 08:14
by loke
NATO’s chief embarked on a final push to convince Turkey to abandon its plan to buy Russian missiles by backing talks over its possible purchase of an alternative U.S.-made air-defense system.

“I welcome and encourage the discussions about Turkey’s possible acquisition of a U.S. Patriot missile system,” Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg told Turkey’s state news agency Anadolu in an interview published on Sunday. “Decisions about military procurement are for nations to make,” but “interoperability of our armed forces is fundamental to NATO for the conduct of our operations and missions,” he said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lcome-step

In other news:
“The United States is deeply concerned by Turkey’s announced intentions to begin offshore drilling operations in an area claimed by the Republic of Cyprus as its Exclusive Economic Zone,” said State Department spokesperson Morgan Ortagus.

“This step is highly provocative and risks raising tensions in the region. We urge Turkish authorities to halt these operations and encourage all parties to act with restraint,” the statement said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKCN1SC0D5
Egypt on Saturday warned Turkey against drilling for natural gas off Cyprus, citing the impact of Turkey’s planned move on the security and stability in East Mediterranean Sea, the Egypt Independent online newspaper reported.

“Any actions by states in the region need to abide by the rules of international law and its provisions,” the newspaper quoted the Egyptian foreign ministry as saying.

https://ahvalnews.com/east-mediterranea ... iterranean

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2019, 11:06
by elshad
loke wrote:Although I share many of your concerns, I am not (yet) that pessimistic -- although there are strong anti-Western forces in Turkey that probably would not mind getting out of both F-35 and NATO, there still remains many Turks that are more positive to the West. THe issue is, that if there is a split between Turkey and the West, and they drop out of F-35 and also NATO, then most likely they will move over to "the other side".... which could be a disaster for Turkey, the whole of ME, and Europe and the US. And of course Israel.


AFAIK only one of the opposition parties in Turkey (İYİ Parti) has explicitly criticised the S-400 purchase and the risk posed to the F-35, and more generally moves towards Russia. They are the most pro-West party. CHP is as well but not as explicit.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2019, 17:30
by mixelflick
Turkey's leadership being unable to swallow their pride is a bad, bad omen. Almost certainly there will be fallout from this - and it won't be good for Turkey.

If they stay this route, Turkey can kiss the F-35 NATO goodbye, and welcome Russia and her substandard weapons/"leadership" the way Syria is now. It's not going to be pretty..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2019, 19:28
by loke
ANKARA, May 6 (Reuters) - Turkey expects NATO to support its rights in the eastern Mediterranean, President Tayyip Erdogan said on Monday, after the United States and European Union voiced concerns over Ankara’s plans for offshore drilling in an area claimed by Cyprus as its exclusive economic zone.

Speaking at NATO’s North Atlantic Council Mediterranean Dialogue Meeting in Ankara, Erdogan also said that Turkey rejected arguments claiming its deal to purchase Russian S-400 defence systems meant Ankara was looking for alternatives in its international ties.

https://www.reuters.com/article/turkey- ... SA4N20201U

This does not look good at all. Actually it looks very bad.

Some people may say "good riddance" however keep in mind Turkey has until recently played an important role in NATO. They have been a reliable partner for decades, has flown F-16s and also joined the F-35 program and planned to purchase 100 F-35.

Unless there is a last-minute U-turn (either a military coup, which seems highly unlikely after all the purges; or Erdogan suddenly changes his mind) then Turkey will leave the F-35 program in a few months, and may even leave NATO. I still hope for a U-turn...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2019, 19:48
by SpudmanWP
How can Turkey expect to stay in the F-35 program let alone NATO if they can't even read a map?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 00:48
by madrat
They have to since China funds their insubordination.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 01:49
by Corsair1963
loke wrote:
ANKARA, May 6 (Reuters) - Turkey expects NATO to support its rights in the eastern Mediterranean, President Tayyip Erdogan said on Monday, after the United States and European Union voiced concerns over Ankara’s plans for offshore drilling in an area claimed by Cyprus as its exclusive economic zone.

Speaking at NATO’s North Atlantic Council Mediterranean Dialogue Meeting in Ankara, Erdogan also said that Turkey rejected arguments claiming its deal to purchase Russian S-400 defence systems meant Ankara was looking for alternatives in its international ties.

https://www.reuters.com/article/turkey- ... SA4N20201U

This does not look good at all. Actually it looks very bad.

Some people may say "good riddance" however keep in mind Turkey has until recently played an important role in NATO. They have been a reliable partner for decades, has flown F-16s and also joined the F-35 program and planned to purchase 100 F-35.

Unless there is a last-minute U-turn (either a military coup, which seems highly unlikely after all the purges; or Erdogan suddenly changes his mind) then Turkey will leave the F-35 program in a few months, and may even leave NATO. I still hope for a U-turn...


I honestly doubt Turkey will leave NATO. It just isn't in their own interest...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 02:13
by marsavian
Turkey will face economic sanctions from both the EU and the US with this oil play as the EU moves as one and Congress is already fed up with it with the F-35 hassle. The Turkish North of Cyprus has never been recognized by anyone other than Turkey being a conquest domain and Erdogan wants NATO to recognize their rights ! This guy is delusional to the nth degree. If the West does not enter a war with this clown then that will be a good result, F-35 is a sideshow now to the bigger problems of Turkey's territorial ambitions against Greece, Cyprus, Syria and the Kurds as well as their general animosity to Israel. Due to its location it may even be a bigger danger than Iran.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2019, 05:12
by spazsinbad
Russia pitches Turkey the Su-57 fighter jet if F-35 deal with US collapses
06 May 2019 Burak Ege Bekdil

"ANKARA, Turkey — Russia is “ready to cooperate” with Turkey to sell its new-generation Su-57 fighter jet in case the Ankara government and Turkish companies are expelled from the U.S.-led F-35 program, according to a senior Russian defense official. “These fifth-generation Russian fighter jets [Su-57] have outstanding qualities, and show promise for export,” said Sergei Chemezov, head of Russia’s state-owned Rostec Corporation.

Chemezov’s statement came in confirmation of an Apr. 19 Defense News story that said if U.S. officials were to expel Turkey from the multinational group that builds the F-35, Turkish defense officials likely would pursue Russian fighter jet technology....

...But a defense procurement official said a “geostrategic assessment” would make Russian options emerge as the natural choice. “Russian fighter technology would the first best choice if our American allies behaved in an un-allied way and questioned Turkey’s membership in the Joint Strike Fighter program,” the official said...." [AS IF]

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... collapses/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 06:39
by spazsinbad
It seems it 'pays' to shoot down a Ruskie Jet. This all gets better and betterer by the day. THE LONG GOODBYE.
IDEF’19: Su-57 May Provide Turkey with an F-35 Alternative
07 May 2019 Vladimir Karnozov

"All documents necessary to arrange shipments of the Sukhoi Su-57 to would-be foreign customers have been prepared, and export clearance for this fifth-generation fighter can be expected soon. “The Su-57 has a high export potential,” according to Russian minister for industry and trade Denis Manturov. Broadcast last month, his words inspired several potential customers, notably in Beijing and Ankara, who have reportedly approached Moscow for details. Information was given at IDEF’2019 in Istanbul, a show that saw a large Russian contingent and a number of high-ranking guests.

Speaking to local media, the head of the Rostec state corporation—Russia’s defense industry giant controlling hundreds of OEMs—said that Moscow is ready to supply Ankara with fifth-generation fighters, provided that Turkey files such a request. In broader terms, Sergei Chemezov said: “In case the Turkish side files a request about the production localization or technology transfer [of a particular weapon system], we will consider it with joy. The rest is to do with negotiated solutions to be found during bilateral talks.” He added that documents permitting Su-57 exports are on the path to validation. Moscow is also interested in cooperating with Ankara on advanced anti-aircraft systems such as the S-500, in particular, should Ankara express an interest in becoming a partner in the development of this next-generation surface-to-air missile (SAM) system.

Although the S-500 is still in development, it is meant to become the mainstay of Russia’s air defense system following induction in 2019-2020. It is described as “a most advanced SAM system that has no equal in the rest of the world.” Chermezov said, "Both nations can contribute to this project.”...

... According to Moscow, Russo-Turkish relations are built on a mutually beneficial basis, which makes them immune to foreign interference.... [Erdogan is being played I guess - shoot down another RUSKIE Jet & get more RESPECT! :roll: ]

...Agreed in 2017, the $2.5 billion S-400 deal should result in deliveries of Fakel 40N6 missiles later this summer. To facilitate the sale, Russia has provided a loan covering 55 percent of the contract sum. Erdogan calls the S-400 “a done deal” and adds that the purchase of such advanced systems is a sovereign right of Turkey and that the nation will not compromise it.

In the meantime, Washington wants Ankara to stop its arms trade with Moscow, threatening economic sanctions and refusal to supply F-35 Lightning II fighters. Turkey received an initial pair of F-35s in June 2018, and another two earlier this year. Turkish air force pilots have been undergoing training at Luke AFB in Arizona in anticipation of redeploying their new jets in November to Malatya in Turkey. Local industry has been involved in the development and production of F-35 components under the Joint Offensive Aircraft Project: Alp Aviation provides bodywork and landing gear, and ASELSAN has developed electro-optical targeting systems and air intervention controls. Ayesaş supplies the missile remote control interface and panoramic cockpit imaging system, and Fokker Elma produces electrical cabling and internal connection systems. Havelsan provides training systems, while Kale Aviation produces structural parts, connectors and landing gear locking systems."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... lternative

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 14:53
by lbk000
Turkey received an initial pair of F-35s in June 2018, and another two earlier this year.

What is the disposition of these F-35s again? They are in Turkey? In Turkish hands?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 May 2019, 15:55
by SpudmanWP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2019, 06:06
by krieger22
Bild's diplomatic sources are claiming that Turkey will abandon the S-400 purchase attempt. It's paywalled and in German, though.

https://www.bild.de/bild-plus/politik/a ... .bild.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2019, 06:24
by spazsinbad
Pentagon Seeking Potential Replacements for Turkish F-35 Parts
10 May 2019

"THE PENTAGON — The Defense Department is seeking alternate suppliers for parts of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter currently provided by Turkish companies, as Turkey’s pursuit of a Russian air defense system threatens its continued participation in the jet program.

The Pentagon has made clear that it will not allow Turkey to buy F-35 jets if it also buys the S-400 Triumf anti-aircraft system. Ellen Lord, undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment, told reporters today that Turkey would also not be allowed to remain involved in supplying parts for the jets, and that the program has “for some time” been looking elsewhere for potential suppliers.

“The U.S. continues to speak with Turkey on a routine basis. We have been very clear that the F-35 and the S-400 are incompatible. We have had Turkey as a NATO ally for many years, they’re also a very good supplier on the F-35 program. Those partners in the F-35 program are awarded supply chain contracts on the basis of value,” she said. “We have for some time now been working to look at alternate sources of supply for the F-35 supply chain that is inside Turkey right now; that being said, we continue to work with Turkey and hope that they will use a NATO-compliant system for their air defense system.”...

...Lord noted that the U.S. and its F-35 partners are in agreement that Turkey cannot operate both the Joint Strike Fighter and the Russian S-400, and she said the U.S. and NATO are pushing Turkey to buy Raytheon’s Patriot air and missile defense system...."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2019/05/10/pentag ... f-35-parts

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2019, 07:30
by marsavian
krieger22 wrote:Bild's diplomatic sources are claiming that Turkey will abandon the S-400 purchase attempt. It's paywalled and in German, though.

https://www.bild.de/bild-plus/politik/a ... .bild.html


https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/f-35-pa ... y-pentagon


German newspaper Bild reported on Friday that the Erdoğan government was about to make a u-turn and back out of the S-400 deal. Erdoğan's communication director, Fahrettin Altun, denied these claims, saying "the S-400 procurement is a done deal".

The U.S. Department of Defense halted the shipment of F-35 parts in early April. Lord said the U.S. administration had been working "for some time" to find alternate sources of supply for the part of the F-35 supply chain currently met by Turkey.

“We see a potential slowing down of some deliveries over the next two years, some potential cost impacts,” she said. “But right now we believe we can minimize both of those and are working on refining” that analysis.


https://mobile.twitter.com/fahrettinalt ... 3172742145

Dear Julian,

Your sources are mistaken.

Take it from me: The S-400 procurement is a done deal.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2019, 09:03
by marsavian
Is Erdogan’s trust in Trump in the S-400/F-35 standoff misplaced?

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... laced.html

Never one to give in to pressure, though, Erdogan is clinging to his position and saying the S-400 deal will not be revoked. He clearly does not want to upset Russian President Vladimir Putin, on whom Erdogan is relying to counterbalance Turkey’s worsening ties with the West.

Rather than try to calm the situation, Erdogan is stoking the fire by saying that the S-400s could be in Turkey by July, and possibly even earlier.

Meanwhile, Ankara continues to insist that Turkey will not bow to US pressures under any circumstances. Turkish Vice President Fuat Oktay reiterated this May 7 during a television interview when he said Turkish officials will “not surrender to anyone’s Congress.”

He was referring to the US Congress, which wants sanctions to be slapped on Ankara over its S-400 purchase and for the delivery of F-35s to be withheld.

Akar said during a television interview May 3, “There is no clause in [the NATO] partnership saying 'you will be excluded if you buy S-400s.'” He said, “Excluding us just because any one country wants to do so would not be in line with justice, laws or rights. This should not happen."

Meanwhile, Erdogan’s acolytes in the media are arguing that the S-400 purchase is not a sign that Turkey is drifting away from NATO.

“Turkey is and always will be a NATO member. It is a strong country in the alliance, and it is impossible to imagine Ankara acting against NATO's interests,” wrote Nagehan Alci in the pro-government daily Sabah.

“However, Turkey doesn't want to be ruled by the United States. It is a big country and wants the freedom to engage in relations with as many large powers as possible,” she added, saying it was time for Washington “to set aside its Cold War mindset.”

The bottom line is that Turkey wants the S-400 and the F-35 and is seeking a formula that will enable it to have its cake and eat it too.

The only means it has in its arsenal to try to achieve this, though, appears to be its belief that the F-35 program will collapse without Turkey’s participation, and a belief that Trump will weigh in and deliver what Ankara wants.

Addressing the IDEF 19 International Defense Industry Fair Istanbul on April 30, Erdogan said, “Any F-35 project that excludes Turkey will be condemned to collapse totally.”


Cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2019, 13:23
by mixelflick
Wow, talk about delusional.

At this point, I wouldn't give the F-35 to Turkey even if they backed out of the S-400 deal. It's going to make him look bad, and I'm sure he's so emotionally immature he'd do something to compromise the F-35 out of spite. Keep those F-35's in the US. Better yet, gear them toward air to air and let's put the F-15EX to bed once and for all!!!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2019, 21:04
by jakobs
marsavian wrote:
krieger22 wrote:Bild's diplomatic sources are claiming that Turkey will abandon the S-400 purchase attempt. It's paywalled and in German, though.

https://www.bild.de/bild-plus/politik/a ... .bild.html


https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/f-35-pa ... y-pentagon


German newspaper Bild reported on Friday that the Erdoğan government was about to make a u-turn and back out of the S-400 deal. Erdoğan's communication director, Fahrettin Altun, denied these claims, saying "the S-400 procurement is a done deal".

The U.S. Department of Defense halted the shipment of F-35 parts in early April. Lord said the U.S. administration had been working "for some time" to find alternate sources of supply for the part of the F-35 supply chain currently met by Turkey.

“We see a potential slowing down of some deliveries over the next two years, some potential cost impacts,” she said. “But right now we believe we can minimize both of those and are working on refining” that analysis.


https://mobile.twitter.com/fahrettinalt ... 3172742145

Dear Julian,

Your sources are mistaken.

Take it from me: The S-400 procurement is a done deal.


Looks to me like the turks is looking high and low for a way out of the deal with the Russians.

My guess: Erdogans inner circle leaked those claims so they could see how the Turkish public loyal to Erdogan would react.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 01:38
by polarbear
Rather than public, it is military the rookie sultan must convince if he wants to back up from this deal. Especially GHQ and Land Forces HQ. S-400 is not a decision taken on the spot or hastily conjured up response against a US transgression. It is an answer to a long series of unnamed embargoes and actions US governments chose to take. For this case we wanted Patriots first and refused. Before that there was AH-1Z issue, also refused, so we ended up developing our own gunship. Also there was AT missile issue; refused again by US, got cheated by French so we are forced to develop our own. A-10 aircraft, night vision equipment, MBT, MRLS, the list goes on and on. Of particular interest to this group; there were F-16 source code, targeting pod and guided bomb issues, which are solved by producing domestic variants. I will write about them later if anyone is interested.
Long story short, Turkish Armed Forces; fed up with blackmailing and outright hostile demeanour of US goverments; are phasing out US equipment wherever possible. What Erdoğan thinks is of little value at this point. The problem is a lot deeper. It will take some serious change of policy, accompanied with decisive and effective action, from US side to rebuild trust and goodwill lost, assuming US government is willing and able.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 02:17
by optimist
The elephant in the room is of course Israel. The driver of US relations in the ME. Looking at the last 50 years and in particular, the last few. Why would they trust the US to be a reliable ally? There could even be an Iran war as a distraction. There are also the Christian fanatics, that are looking for armageddon and the second coming. The last few years has also affected Australia in the asia pacific region.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 08:09
by loke
polarbear wrote:Rather than public, it is military the rookie sultan must convince if he wants to back up from this deal. Especially GHQ and Land Forces HQ. S-400 is not a decision taken on the spot or hastily conjured up response against a US transgression. It is an answer to a long series of unnamed embargoes and actions US governments chose to take. For this case we wanted Patriots first and refused. Before that there was AH-1Z issue, also refused, so we ended up developing our own gunship. Also there was AT missile issue; refused again by US, got cheated by French so we are forced to develop our own. A-10 aircraft, night vision equipment, MBT, MRLS, the list goes on and on. Of particular interest to this group; there were F-16 source code, targeting pod and guided bomb issues, which are solved by producing domestic variants. I will write about them later if anyone is interested.
Long story short, Turkish Armed Forces; fed up with blackmailing and outright hostile demeanour of US goverments; are phasing out US equipment wherever possible. What Erdoğan thinks is of little value at this point. The problem is a lot deeper. It will take some serious change of policy, accompanied with decisive and effective action, from US side to rebuild trust and goodwill lost, assuming US government is willing and able.

Do you have any sources for all of this?

AFAIK the "issue" with the Patriot deal was that Turkey made some very strong demands in terms for tech transfer, that the US could not accept, and that this was the main reason why Turkey was not able to buy the Patriot.

As for source code, well yes, that has always been an issue with the US, Australia which is a very close ally of the US also had the same issue. Why would Turkey be given more access to source code than countries like Australia? What makes you so special?

Also, it seems very strange that Turkey would go into the F-35 partnership if what you write above is really correct...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 10:08
by spazsinbad
'loke' above said: "...As for source code, well yes, that has always been an issue with the US, Australia which is a very close ally of the US also had the same issue...." Do you have a reference for this claim - source code for what exactly?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 11:03
by loke
spazsinbad wrote:'loke' above said: "...As for source code, well yes, that has always been an issue with the US, Australia which is a very close ally of the US also had the same issue...." Do you have a reference for this claim - source code for what exactly?

I don't remember the details, something to do with the old Hornets, this is several years ago. I think they resolved it in the end but it took some time and effort. Was it related to radar libraries or EW libraries or IFF or something along those lines? Can't remember the details.

Another more recent example is of course the F-35 -- even the UK, a level 1 F-35 partner and one of the closes US allies had to do a lot of arm-twisting to get access to the source code -- I am not sure what level of access they got in the end? Turkey has also complained a lot about access to F-35 source code:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110315091 ... -jets.html

Again, the question is why Turkey believe they are so special? It seems only Israel and the UK are "special" in this context. I don't think Norway (which has been a very close US ally since WW2) will get access to F-35 source code; and if/when we buy Patriot for sure any tech transfer will be limited. That is just how it is. Turkey should either accept it, buy European, or develop their own. Going to Russia is a terrible idea from all aspects. It seems rather odd to buy such a key system from a country that repeatedly has declared NATO to be "the enemy"...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 11:39
by spazsinbad
The TURKEY CODE story for F-35 is EIGHT YEARS OLD - sure there was a KERFUFFLE about this issue by several country's NAYsayers and jiminy crickets it all must have been resolved in the same teacup storm eh. Even the UK was happy.

Just throwing the word CODES about earlier without any other reference to aircraft/what for is just silly - STOP IT.

Last century in Australia a HORNET 'code' issue was resolved by Australian ingenuity (with bragging much much later).

The F-35 CODE issue for the UK was resolved to their satisfaction whilst NO ONE has 'the code' - except the US etc.

As to why ANY COUNTRY thinks they are special is why that country is what it is - a country separate from other countries.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 11:43
by loke
spazsinbad wrote:The TURKEY CODE story for F-35 is EIGHT YEARS OLD - sure there was a KERFUFFLE about this issue by several country's NAYsayers and jiminy crickets it all must have been resolved in the same teacup storm eh. Even the UK was happy.

Just throwing the word CODES about earlier without any other reference to aircraft/what for is just silly - STOP IT.

Last century in Australia a HORNET 'code' issue was resolved by Australian ingenuity (with bragging much much later).

The F-35 CODE issue for the UK was resolved to their satisfaction whilst NO ONE has 'the code' - except the US etc.

As to why ANY COUNTRY thinks they are special is why that country is what it is - a country separate from other countries.

Grumpy today, are we? :D

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 12:05
by spazsinbad
I'm wondering why you brought up an EIGHT YEAR OLD STORY when it was resolved to the satisfaction of ALL countries involved in the F-35 enterprise. And what is this about TURKEY 'special'. Is that on the menu? No ONE country is special at all except those F-35 countries which (by agreement with all involved) have extras on their F-35s. Brake Chute and interface for Israeli gizmos are some examples. However as I understand ANY country can have these extras if they so require. AND any modified F-35s are more or less the same when viewed by other F-35s - by whatever means available.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 12:13
by optimist
spazsinbad wrote:'loke' above said: "...As for source code, well yes, that has always been an issue with the US, Australia which is a very close ally of the US also had the same issue...." Do you have a reference for this claim - source code for what exactly?

You may recall the source code software issue, mainly with the UK. They wanted the keys to the safe. AU stated they were happy with the access they got and needed. It was the same as what the UK finished up with.

EDIT, I should have kept reading the later posts, it's been sorted

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 12:43
by loke
spazsinbad wrote:I'm wondering why you brought up an EIGHT YEAR OLD STORY when it was resolved to the satisfaction of ALL countries involved in the F-35 enterprise. And what is this about TURKEY 'special'. Is that on the menu? No ONE country is special at all except those F-35 countries which (by agreement with all involved) have extras on their F-35s. Brake Chute and interface for Israeli gizmos are some examples. However as I understand ANY country can have these extras if they so require. AND any modified F-35s are more or less the same when viewed by other F-35s - by whatever means available.

You missed my point.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 16:18
by spazsinbad
Which is?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 16:32
by spazsinbad
Lord: F-35 Will Take a Hit on Schedule, Cost if Turkey is Out; Partners Supportive
10 May 2019 John A. Tirpak

"The F-35 program will likely experience both schedule delays and cost increases if Turkey is pushed out of the program, but the Pentagon is working on ways to mitigate the potential fallout in that event, Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment Ellen Lord said in a May 10 press conference.

“We see a potential slowing-down of some deliveries over the next two years” if Turkey is voted out of the F-35 program, Lord said, as well as “some potential cost impacts. But right now we believe we can minimize both of those and are working on refining them.” She said the partners are “very supportive” of the US’ insistence that Turkey drop its plans to buy the Russian S400 Triumf air defense system and instead buy something that is NATO compliant. She said she met with the other JSF partners recently in Brussels, Belgium, at a conference of armaments directors, and they back the US approach.

Turkey is “a very good supplier on the F-35 program,” Lord asserted, noting that partner countries are awarded F-35 supply chain contracts based on value. She said the Pentagon has been looking at alternative supply sources, but expressed hope that a deal can still be made with Turkey that would prevent its departure from the program.

Turkey’s planned purchase of the S400 has roiled both NATO and the JSF partnership, as the US has charged that Russian technicians would gain valuable insight in how to detect and track the F-35 if they were allowed to see the two systems function in close proximity. The Turkish government has rebuffed the US offer of the Patriot air defense system as a substitute for the S400, saying the Triumf sale and delivery is a “done deal” and the system will be delivered this summer. Lord declined to explain Turkey’s objections to the Patriot, saying only, “We’re under discussions right now to replace the S400 with the Patriot.”...

...President Trump is scheduled to visit Turkey and meet with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in July, it was announced last week. The two are expected to discuss a number of issues including trade, Middle East security, NATO, and areas of friction between the two countries, such as the S400 deal. The S400 could potentially be delivered during Trump’s visit...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... rtive.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 22:55
by polarbear
Thanks for the kind responses to my post. I am more of a lurker than a poster, and english is not my primary language so thanks again for the opportunity and practice.

At the time F-35 project started, Turkish-US relations were not strained as they are today. Through patience, show of goodwill, honest cooperation and sharing of knowledge, we thought we could influence US to a course of action to avoid the bloodshed and chaos reigning today in middle east. Foolish and naive thinking on our behalf as it turned out to be. Will Turkey enter a similar project today? Not likely i think, but necessity is known to create strange bedfellows...

"Deserving" the code is irrelevant; either we have it or the system -whatever it is- is not bought anymore. I will tell the underlying story how it come to be: The sole F-16 shot down in an air to air action is a turkish f-16 killed by a greek mirage. Officially sterilized details of the incident is on wikipedia, the bitter truth uncovered at the end of inquiry is pilot was not warned of the threat and countermeasures were not deployed becouse the system classified the killer as ally and did not recognize launched missile as threat. Source codes requested for examination and guess what: Requests refused. Repeatedly. Armywide inquiry revealed stingers and several naval systems and radars suffering from a similar "bug". You can imagine the outrage among the troops. Most of these systems could not be taken offline so they are used as is until havelsan and aselsan purged their defects. Adding insult to the injury, greeks did not seem to be affected by the same "bug". Some of the pilots who flew patrols over aegean, knowing that a greek murderer could sneak upon them anytime undetected becouse US government wanted it so, became generals and leading TuAF now. They had seen the face of reaper, survived and will have a merry time with US diplomats trying to convince them in July.

Fikret Bila is a distinguished reporter and columnist who wrote in Milliyet when it used to be a reputable newspaper. -Before the rookie sultan had it bought and turned into a tabloid-. He is known as unofficial voice of GHQ; when GHQ wants a matter known to public without causing an international incident, he is the guy who comes up with a "fictional" story. Unlike Aslı and Nagehan, this guy is honest to the bone and his integrity is impeccable. My second source is wikipedia. For all the systems I mentioned - AH-1Z, M1 MBT, Javelin, M227 MLRS ... -among the references you will see an article with a similiar pattern. The system proves itself on the field of battle, Turkish army is interested in acquiring the system, system is tested and shortlisted. Then voila, some US diplomat visits. After a while although technically everything is going on fine, the need is urgent and money available; project is silently shelved with no apparent reason. Call it a hunch on which i am willing to bet my last 2 cents.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2019, 23:50
by SpudmanWP
That particular issue is not related to the "code" of the F-35. That information is stored in the "Threat Libraries" (ie Mission Data Files) that Turkey and all other Partners will maintain at US based MDF Reprogramming sites.

The other main reason to have the codes is to integrate you own weapons. The F-35 handles this by adding UAI to the Block 4 Upgrade. Even Turkey accepted this and is integrating the SOM-J via the UAI interface. Future versions of UAI and other APIs like it, will allow for pods (EW, RECCE, etc) to be integrated with little effort.

The only other API that is applicable at this time but is rarely reported on (unsurprising) is the API that allows Parters to run an "app" on the F-35's computer without having to need to know the codes. Israel is the first with this and will add their C4 app without changing any hardware on the F-35.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2019, 01:32
by spazsinbad
Israel makes a black box for their API and I believe their ADIRs will be manufactured especially for it (not first examples).
Two page ADIR PDF with article excerpt here: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=29374&p=360880&hilit=Adir+interface#p360880

F-35i ADIR Israel Flight International 24-30 Jan 2017 pp2 .pdf (1.55Mb) download/file.php?id=24124

ALSO ADIR interface: viewtopic.php?f=62&t=30787&p=321972&hilit=Adir+interface#p321972
___________________________________________________________________

Original post below is here: search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=mission+data+files&fid%5B%5D=65&ch=-1
EGLIN ACTIVATES F-35 PARTNER SUPPORT COMPLEX
12 May 2016 JPO PR

"EGLIN AIR FORCE BASE, Fla. (AFNS) -- The 53rd Wing activated on May 11 the F-35 Partner Support Complex, a U.S.-owned facility here that handles F-35 Lightning II testing. Robert Kraus assumed the new position as the complex’s director, making it the first civilian-led unit in the wing. Kraus, a retired lieutenant colonel, served as the 68th Electronic Warfare Squadron commander and 53rd Electronic Warfare Group deputy commander at Eglin Air Force Base prior to this new position.

The F-35 PSC is charged with providing mission data, intelligence support, lab facilities and training to the eight partner countries purchasing the fifth-generation aircraft.

"The growth of the PSC will relieve that pressure, as well as ensure our coalition partners are ready to participate in any future operations," Kraus said. The partner countries include: Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Norway, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and Turkey. These countries provided critical design input and funding during the early stages of the F-35 program, which differs from foreign military sales customers. "The PSC will directly support the partners, who currently have no indigenous capability to create mission data for the F-35," Kraus said.

The complex will interact with mission data programmers and data analysts from the partner nations. According to Kraus, one of the key projects for the unit is to support the partners in the creation of two separate hardware in the loop testing facilities -- only one currently exists. The F-35 PSC started as a small team within the 513th Electronic Warfare Squadron at Eglin AFB, which provides F-35 mission data files to the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps. The team staffs 24 civilian employees and contractors, with plans to grow to about 100 personnel. The new unit will report to the 53rd EWG.

While the mission of the complex has been ongoing for nearly five years, Kraus sees the formalization of the unit as a step forward. "The formal activation of the unit will give me a greater ability to support the partners in their efforts," he said. "(I can now) elevate the partner support functions to an equal level with U.S. squadrons, as opposed to a subordinate role."

Plans are in the works for two separate buildings to hold the new unit and partner nation personnel. This includes the Australia/Canada/United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory [ACURL] building and the Norway/Italy Reprogramming Laboratory building. Additional support will be provided to Denmark, the Netherlands and Turkey."

Source: http://www.jsf.mil/news/docs/20160512_Complex.pdf (130Kb)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2019, 12:19
by madrat
The new training squadron and this smaller acquisition offsets the bomb range assets moving to Utah and the loss of F-22A. Kind of a break even, not much to consider a gain.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2019, 19:41
by loke
polarbear wrote:Thanks for the kind responses to my post. I am more of a lurker than a poster, and english is not my primary language so thanks again for the opportunity and practice.

At the time F-35 project started, Turkish-US relations were not strained as they are today. Through patience, show of goodwill, honest cooperation and sharing of knowledge, we thought we could influence US to a course of action to avoid the bloodshed and chaos reigning today in middle east. Foolish and naive thinking on our behalf as it turned out to be. Will Turkey enter a similar project today? Not likely i think, but necessity is known to create strange bedfellows...

"Deserving" the code is irrelevant; either we have it or the system -whatever it is- is not bought anymore. I will tell the underlying story how it come to be: The sole F-16 shot down in an air to air action is a turkish f-16 killed by a greek mirage. Officially sterilized details of the incident is on wikipedia, the bitter truth uncovered at the end of inquiry is pilot was not warned of the threat and countermeasures were not deployed becouse the system classified the killer as ally and did not recognize launched missile as threat. Source codes requested for examination and guess what: Requests refused. Repeatedly. Armywide inquiry revealed stingers and several naval systems and radars suffering from a similar "bug". You can imagine the outrage among the troops. Most of these systems could not be taken offline so they are used as is until havelsan and aselsan purged their defects. Adding insult to the injury, greeks did not seem to be affected by the same "bug". Some of the pilots who flew patrols over aegean, knowing that a greek murderer could sneak upon them anytime undetected becouse US government wanted it so, became generals and leading TuAF now. They had seen the face of reaper, survived and will have a merry time with US diplomats trying to convince them in July.

Fikret Bila is a distinguished reporter and columnist who wrote in Milliyet when it used to be a reputable newspaper. -Before the rookie sultan had it bought and turned into a tabloid-. He is known as unofficial voice of GHQ; when GHQ wants a matter known to public without causing an international incident, he is the guy who comes up with a "fictional" story. Unlike Aslı and Nagehan, this guy is honest to the bone and his integrity is impeccable. My second source is wikipedia. For all the systems I mentioned - AH-1Z, M1 MBT, Javelin, M227 MLRS ... -among the references you will see an article with a similiar pattern. The system proves itself on the field of battle, Turkish army is interested in acquiring the system, system is tested and shortlisted. Then voila, some US diplomat visits. After a while although technically everything is going on fine, the need is urgent and money available; project is silently shelved with no apparent reason. Call it a hunch on which i am willing to bet my last 2 cents.

Do you have sources for your F-16 story?

Are you suggesting that 'one of the main reasons Turkey prefer S-400 to Patriot is that they believe they cannot be given full access to the Patriot system and therefore may not be able to shoot down e.g., Greek fighter jets or Greek missiles using the Patriot in a potential conflict?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2019, 21:26
by pron
loke wrote:Do you have sources for your F-16 story?

Are you suggesting that 'one of the main reasons Turkey prefer S-400 to Patriot is that they believe they cannot be given full access to the Patriot system and therefore may not be able to shoot down e.g., Greek fighter jets or Greek missiles using the Patriot in a potential conflict?

I guess it on this listing.
https://theaviationist.com/2015/12/30/a ... -dogfight/
In Oct. 1996, a HAF Mirage 2000 fired an R.550 Magic II and shot down a Turkish F-16D that had violated the Greek airspace.

When you read that article it's not the planes or the rockets that are the problem.
And the "things" polarbear list are just like any other conspiracy theory that lives so good in that part of the world.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2019, 22:52
by lbk000
Less conspiracy and more spin. Of course they are going to be self-protective of their interests.

It's real simple when it comes down to it though: you don't refuse to kiss the ring and then ask for favors.
There are no free rides in this world, but the US at least offers reacharounds.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 11:41
by loke
ANKARA, May 15 (Reuters) - Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Wednesday Turkey is discussing with the United States details of a working group Ankara has proposed setting up to look into the impact of its purchase of Russian S-400 missile defence systems.

Tensions have risen between Turkey and the United States over Ankara's decision to buy the S-400s, which are not compatible with NATO systems.

Cavusoglu said that stopping or postponing the delivery of the S-400s is not on the agenda. (Reporting by Ece Toksabay; Writing by Sarah Dadouch Editing by Dominic Evans)

http://news.trust.org//item/20190515101636-505f5/
The U.S. has asked Turkey to postpone taking delivery of the Russian S-400 air defense systems until 2020, Reuters news agency reported. Speaking to the agency, a top-level Turkish official said, "We are going to receive the S-400s in July. Our position has not changed.

https://www.yenisafak.com/en/columns/me ... es-2047042

A US House of Representatives committee on Tuesday released an early version of a spending bill that seeks to prevent the shipment of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey, as US officials press Turkey not to buy a Russian S-400 air defense system.


https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Early ... key-589710

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 21:39
by polarbear
loke wrote:When you read that article it's not the planes or the rockets that are the problem.
And the "things" polarbear list are just like any other conspiracy theory that lives so good in that part of the world.


I am truly disappointed by this. For example search wiki for turkish made MLRS systems -TOROS 230/260, Yıldırım etc- artillery system and you will find the root of these projects at the embargo of guided munitions for M270 systems sold to turkey. We reverse engineered and rebuild the munition first, then the vehicle, after that loader came. Artillery radar and c&c complex followed soon. So no consipracy theory here but pure truth. Another example is AH-1Z procurement and ATAK project. Just search Richard Perle's reports on this subject and you will find him smugly describing how the deal went down under the guise of "human rights" and "loss of american jobs". Accounting for the others, product catalogs of roketsan, aselsan and tai are online. Browse through them and similarities with existing US equipment are more than obvious. Please be careful and sure before implying "overimaginative storytelling", it hurts the other ones feelings and pride if you are mistaken.

Now back to the forum topic:

madrat wrote:Are you suggesting that 'one of the main reasons Turkey prefer S-400 to Patriot is that they believe they cannot be given full access to the Patriot system and therefore may not be able to shoot down e.g., Greek fighter jets or Greek missiles using the Patriot in a potential conflict?


It sure has an impact but i don't think it is the decisive one. S-400 procurement is proceeding in a strange manner. Russians stated S-400 is a complex; without its mid and short range subsysems, it will not be effective. Yet only long range subsystem is procured and will be installed as soon as possible (fact). - "overimaginative storytelling" mode on - It seems army is more interested in radar and sensors than the missile. why? AN/TPY-2 at kürecik is already covering the area, and it is one on the best if not the best. I suppose they have reasons to believe that radar either does not see everything in its mission space, or does not report everything it detects. Couple this with US saberrattling on iran, US and israeli F-35 deployments and israeli disregard for turkish airspace; it is only natural to want an alternative air control and detection system independent of existing one. Patriot simply does not fit into this mission profile as it is considered as an already compromised system. - "overimaginative storytelling" mode off -.Turkey experienced both extreme discomfort of being dragged into a world war by letting foreigners running rampant on its soil and seas; and extreme comfort of staying out of a world war by denying usage of turkish territories and seas for military purposes. We simply do not want to fight with any of our neighbours.It is already a difficult place to live in and a war will not make things any better.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 19:08
by loke
Polarbear, please check your quotes, I did not make the statements above that you attributed to me ( your other quote however seems to belong to me)

As for your claims -- they sound dubious to me, to be honest. However I am no expert in this matter field and I hope that other forum members that are more informed can comment...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 19:15
by polarbear
You are right loke and i stand corrected. Rookie poster mistake. I am sorry.

As for the s-400 comment, having re-read it, it sounds dubious to me too but i can not come with a better explanation. Maybe rookie sultan wants to be kicked off from F-35 project to boost his meager popularity. Since december, turkey has experienced a traumatic election process; sultan employed every dirty trick in the book to win; still lost and coerced high court to make a decision to repeat part of the election he has lost, in june 2019. It was the worst election of turkish democracy and his popularity is going downhill since then.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 19:38
by botsing
polarbear is just one of the many propaganda trolls that visit this site. Like the usual bunch he brings along a few "sensible" conspiracy theories that sounds good enough in their part of the world.

After questioning his posts we will we get the usual evading responses and more propaganda, just put him on your ignore list.


As for Turkey and the F-35/S-400: It's best to think about the future and a time when there is no more Erdogan, when that happens it's best the Turks find a smooth ride back to the west.

This means it's a delicate diplomatic mission for the USA where it does not want to anger the divided Turkish population while at the same it wants to prevent Erdogan's destructive decisions.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 20:15
by loke
Turkish officials have once again refuted the United States’ claims that the deployment of Russian S-400 air defense systems on the Turkish soils together with the U.S. F-35 aircraft would create a security breach. They repeated their calls for setting up a joint committee to analyze both sides’ technical views regarding the matter.
“If these claims by the U.S. were true, S-400s would have already accessed [secrets] to the F-35 technology (as both are deployed) in Syria, the Baltic region and in the north. Because there are S-400s in Syria under the full control of Russia. The U.S. and Israeli F-35s are flying around them,” Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu told reporters in Riga at a joint press conference with Latvian counterpart Edgards Rinkevics on May 16.
He also recalled that Norway has F-35s with the Russian S-400s stationed right on the other side of the Norwegian-Russian border.
“If these claims were true, they should have already been verified,” he said.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-cla ... glu-143485

Turkey is not budging-- how stupid can they be? Russia has repeatedly declared NATO to be "the enemy". How on earth can Turkey, as a NATO country (and F-35 partner) purchase a strategic system like S-400 from "the enemy"?

This argument alone should be enough for Turkey to immediately drop S-400; F-35 purchase or not.

I am starting to get the feeling that Turkey may drop out of both the F-35 program but also, longer term, NATO. Sad for NATO, but even more sad for Turkey, which more and more starts to look like a lost cause.

The CAATSA is crystal clear about imposing sanctions on countries engaging in business with Moscow in defence or intelligence sectors, said Eric Edelman, former U.S. ambassador to Turkey and chairman of the Turkey program at Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), and Jonathan Schanzer, senior vice president for research at the FDD, wrote on Wednesday for WSJ.
U.S. officials say Turkey’s use of the Russian S-400 system alongside U.S.-made F-35 jets, which Ankara is also purchasing, would create an unacceptable risk as its radar could enable the Russian military to gain insight into F-35 operations.
“This would threaten the U.S. military’s already diminishing qualitative advantage,” said Edelman and Schanzer. In addition to inviting congressionally mandated sanctions, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan also risks expulsion from the F-35 program due to his decision to acquire the S-400 systems.
Last month, the Pentagon halted the delivery of F-35 training equipment and related materials. Some argue that these measures against Turkey are a mistake, as Turkey is a key NATO ally that could be pushed toward Russia or even Iran, said Edelman and Schanzer.
“Yet Turkey has been outside the NATO tent for a decade now. It is the largest external headquarters for the terrorist group Hamas in the Middle East. It has supported the worst jihadist actors in the Syrian civil war, including some linked to al-Qaeda and Islamic State,” said Edelman and Schanzer, also citing Turkey’s $20 billion sanctions-evasion scheme with Iran from 2012-2015 and the country’s descent into authoritarianism.
U.S. officials have shown great patience, but now is the time for a change, according to the analysts.
“Mr. Trump lambastes allies who fail to pull their weight. Turkey tops that list, relying on U.S. beneficence while undermining U.S. interests,” said Edelman and Schanzer. “Instead of coddling Mr. Erdoğan, the administration must force Turkey to decide whether it remains a part of the Western alliance in fact or in name only.”


https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-russia/tru ... 0-analysis

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 20:32
by marsavian
The Turkey/NATO relationship is one which was always based on mutual transaction benefit not shared values. Once the transactions don't make sense there will be a mutual natural parting of the ways, it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 22:14
by loke
It is a big deal -- Turkey has a very strategic location, and the second biggest army in NATO. If they really leave NATO, I would not be surprised if they would obtain nukes -- this would force Saudi Arabia to obtain nukes, and would create an even more dangerous situation.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 01:08
by blain
loke wrote:It is a big deal -- Turkey has a very strategic location, and the second biggest army in NATO. If they really leave NATO, I would not be surprised if they would obtain nukes -- this would force Saudi Arabia to obtain nukes, and would create an even more dangerous situation.


Maybe Turkey should stay in NATO and we should leave? Unfortunately there is nothing that the US can do to reverse the fundamental issues dividing the US from Turkey in the near term. Turkey is a security risk. Would you sell the F-35 to Pakistan?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 10:00
by spazsinbad
Time to Pull US Nuclear Weapons Out of Turkey
17 May 2019 Harvey M. Sapolsky

"Storing nuclear weapons close to trouble is a bad idea, and giving Ankara a shared finger on the nuclear trigger is rapidly losing its charm.

Amid the recent self-congratulatory celebrations of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s 70th anniversary, there was no mention one of its strangest policies: the nuclear sharing program that keeps American nuclear bombs in five NATO countries (Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy and Turkey) and trains host air forces to use them. Thus at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, about 100 miles from the Syrian border, the United States stores some 20 to 80 B61 nuclear weapons for delivery by Turkish or American aircraft. There is not much comfort in knowing that these weapons are under direct American control in heavily guarded bunkers and are designed to be unusable without the proper codes. It is time to bring them home.

American-Turkish relations are not good and are likely to turn worse....

...Complicating the relations are Turkey’s attempts to acquire Russian military technology, most notably the S-400 air defense system, while remaining part of United States’ F-35 stealth fighter program. Turkey is an industrial partner in the F-35 program and is scheduled to purchase 100 of the aircraft. The first of Turkey’s F-35s are ready for delivery. But Turkey is also scheduled to receive soon the first components of the Russian S-400 system it has purchased, which American military officials have said is incompatible with Turkish possession of the F-35; The fear is that details of the fighter’s stealth features and performance will be revealed to the Russians who will help maintain the S-400....

...The United States is currently updating the bombs and has designated the F-35 as the replacement aircraft for the F-16, the delivery aircraft for the NATO partners (except for Germany and Italy, which use the Tornado). Some are having second thoughts about hosting the weapons or replacing the aircraft. The Parliament in the Netherlands has expressed doubts, as have members of the governing coalition in Germany. Nuclear weapons aren’t the temptation they once were for Europeans. Turkey, which is the bridge to the Middle East, is silent on the subject.

Storing nuclear weapons close to trouble is a bad idea. Giving Turkey a shared finger on the nuclear trigger is rapidly losing its charm especially as Turkey flirts with Russia and has growing grievances with the United States. Let’s end NATO’s nuclear-sharing program, beginning with the nuclear weapons at Incirlik."

Source: https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/0 ... ey/157101/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 13:53
by polarbear
Hi again. Ahvalnews is not a reputable website. It is funded with Saudi money, turkish section is run by FETO people, promoting ideas of people behind FETO like Edelmann or Grossman. FETO is #1 public enemy in Turkey, (PKK is #2). Regular trade is not sanctioned; only defence related products, so 20 bil. usd thing is a gross attempt at disinformation. Unless you regard solid cast iron frying pan or work shoes as as weapons of war. The hq in question would have been raided and closed within the hour if they do something illegal. It is a waste of time and energy to discuss over information spilling from that cesspit.

What Mr. Sapolsky has written shows he has no idea where the ball park is when it comes to Turkey-US relations. Nukes at incirlik is a concession to US; we will be all too happy if US removed them. We are not interested in other people's lands; our army is strong enough to defeat anybody around us, if any of them is stupid enough to begin slaughtering our people and diplomacy fails. Nukes are utterly unnecessary, useless and dangerous to have let alone use. So by all means go ahead.

loke wrote:Turkey is not budging-- how stupid can they be? Russia has repeatedly declared NATO to be "the enemy". How on earth can Turkey, as a NATO country (and F-35 partner) purchase a strategic system like S-400 from "the enemy"?


I think you are beginning to understand the source of problem. Let me ask a similiar question. Could US, with repeatedly declared disregard for international law, our borders and lives of our people; with continuous and huge support to PKK and FETO causing loss of lives and extreme damage to economy and government structure; with persistent warmongering and warring causing massive damage to economy, with repeatedly proven unreliability at dire times be considered a "friend" or an "ally"? Or Could Russia; with rock solid and proven respect for our borders, governmet structure, and well being of people; with efficient and genuine peacemaking efforts in the region; with solid economic and technical support in dire times; with persistent efforts to keep good relations and increase goodwill even in the face of extremely hostile acion from us, be considered an "enemy"?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 14:13
by pron
polarbear wrote:Or Could Russia; with rock solid and proven respect for our borders, governmet structure, and well being of people; with efficient and genuine peacemaking efforts in the region; with solid economic and technical support in dire times; with persistent efforts to keep good relations and increase goodwill even in the face of extremely hostile acion from us, be considered an "enemy"?


What happend several times with the "rock solid and proven respect for your borders" that resultet into the following?
A Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter jet shot down a Russian Sukhoi Su-24M attack aircraft
near the Syria–Turkey border on 24 November 2015.

You are a laugh and nothing more.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 21:34
by loke
polarbear wrote:Hi again. Ahvalnews is not a reputable website.



avuz Baydar is the Editor-in-Chief of Ahval.
He has been a journalist for nearly 40 years.
Baydar was among the co-founders, in 2013, of the independent media platform P24 to monitor the media sector and the state of journalism in his home country.
His opinion articles have appeared in the Guardian, Süddeutsche Zeitung, New York Times, El Pais, Svenska Dagbladet, Mainichi Shimbun, the Arab Weekly, and Index on Censorship.
Baydar has blogged with the Huffington Post and Al Jazeera, sharing his his analysis and views on Turkish politics, the Middle East, Balkans, Europe, U.S-Turkish relations, human rights, free speech, press freedom and history.
Turkey’s first news ombudsman, beginning at Milliyet daily in 1999, Baydar worked in the same role as reader representative until 2014. His work included reader complaints with content, and commentary on media ethics. Working in a tough professional climate had its costs: he was twice forced to leave his job, after his critical columns on journalistic flaws and fabricated news stories.
He served as president of the U.S. based International Organizaton of News Ombudsmen (ONO) in 2003.
In 2014, as a Shorenstein Fellow at Harvard Kennedy School of Government, he completed an extensive research paper on self-censorship, corruption of ownership in Turkish media, state oppression and threats over journalism in Turkey - in the wake of Gezi Park protests.
Baydar worked as producer and news presenter in Swedish Radio &TV Corp. (SR) Stockholm, Sweden; as correspondent for Scandinavia and Baltics for Turkish daily Cumhuriyet between 1980-1992, and the BBC World Service, in early 1990's.
He studied Informatics, Cybernetics and Journalism in the University of Stockholm.
Baydar has recently been given - in early February 2018 - the prestigious 'Journalistenpreis' by the (Munich-based) SüdostEuropa Gesellschaft in Germany.
Earlier, Baydar was delivered the Special Award of the European Press Prize (EPP), for 'excellence in journalism', in 2014.
In 2017, he received the Morris B Abram Human Rights Award by UN Watch.
He was also laureate of the Umbria Journalism Award, Italy, in March 2014, and Caravella 'Mare Nostrum' Award, by the organization 'Journalists of the Mediterranean', in Puglia, Italy.


Actually this is probably the most reputable news site focusing on Turkey and Turkish news...

As for Russia; as already stated, they have repeatedly denoted NATO to be "the enemy" -- there is no way around it. Then of course you have Georgia, Ukraine, and all the "hybrid warfare" in Europe, the US, and yes, also Turkey. I find it weird that you are not aware of this.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 22:17
by loke
Purchase of S-400 from Russia is a done deal, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Saturday, adding that Turkey will also jointly produce S-500 with Russia in future.
Speaking with the youth in Istanbul's Dolmabahçe Palace, Erdoğan also noted that Turkey will "sooner or later" get F-35s from the U.S., despite current delaying by the American side.
"They (the U.S.) are passing the ball around in the midfield now, showing some reluctance. But sooner or later, we will receive the F-35s. (The U.S.) not delivering them is not an option," Erdoğan said.


https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/201 ... dogan-says

:doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 22:35
by spazsinbad
IF properly translated this statement is delusional, considering all the efforts being made by the JSF Partners (other than Turkey) backing the US Government efforts to warn Turkey of consequences for accepting the S-400 system in country.
"...sooner or later, we will receive the F-35s. (The U.S.) not delivering them is not an option," Erdoğan said."

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 23:06
by fidgetspinner
pron wrote:
polarbear wrote:Or Could Russia; with rock solid and proven respect for our borders, governmet structure, and well being of people; with efficient and genuine peacemaking efforts in the region; with solid economic and technical support in dire times; with persistent efforts to keep good relations and increase goodwill even in the face of extremely hostile acion from us, be considered an "enemy"?


What happend several times with the "rock solid and proven respect for your borders" that resultet into the following?
A Turkish Air Force F-16 fighter jet shot down a Russian Sukhoi Su-24M attack aircraft
near the Syria–Turkey border on 24 November 2015.

You are a laugh and nothing more.


So you don't consider the s-400 deployment excuse to control their airspace as payback? They even used Israel as a excuse for the s-300 deployment and they were not happy about their airspace being monitored as well. Turkey is still supporting the FSA with Qatar while the US withdrew support in 2017 and every NATO country afterwards did as well. Idlib looks like the next place that will be in the Syrian army's hands and now they are screwing with us in Venezuela, this trend better stop or the your a laugh and nothing more accusation might fall on us. What I am saying is whatever country we eye next I better see results instead of the Russians are screwing with us again.
I am surprised the Russians are even planning to give them the S-400s or Iraq considering purchasing them when they have US bases in their country.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 00:47
by polarbear
This CV conveniently excludes his involvement with Zaman and Today's Zaman newspapers. Also his time with Sabah is barely mentioned. His nationality is not turkish anymore but swedish. His attempts to get Banu Avar, a journalist making news on Sweden's extensive support to PKK, fired from her job and get her imprisoned have not been forgotten. Before relations between Erdogan and Gulen went sour, he was an avid supporter of rookie sultan. He is not a reliable source of truth but a propaganda outlet.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... ldnt-23629

Could the russians be hostile becouse US backed off from this deal? In europe their aggresiveness do not extend beyond the border mentioned above. And they resort to violence only in SSSR space after US puppets severely outstepped their bounds in their areas. NATO is the offender here and russians remained well within their rights according to international law and the agreement above. Considering what NATO and US proxies have done since 1990's in SSSR boundaries, russians acted with extreme restraint and caution.

At last US government succeeded in forcing a confrontation. The aircraft will either be denied; Lockheed will lose a lot of revenue, Erdogan will get a popularity boost, turkish budget will get a massive relief; or be delivered, US will lose a lot of face boosting Erdogan's popularity. I think the decisive factor will be Lockheed's greed. It may triumph over "national security concerns". In the past they were quite effective in finding "innovative" ways to finish a sale, especially with F-104. We may see some top notch performance on their behalf for this facelifted F-104.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 01:23
by spazsinbad
Climate Change is going to make the 'polarbear' predictive ability even more laughable & silly. "Tell 'im he's dreamin'":
"...At last US government succeeded in forcing a confrontation. The aircraft will either be denied; Lockheed will lose a lot of revenue, Erdogan will get a popularity boost, turkish budget will get a massive relief; or be delivered, US will lose a lot of face boosting Erdogan's popularity. I think the decisive factor will be Lockheed's greed. It may triumph over "national security concerns". In the past they were quite effective in finding "innovative" ways to finish a sale, especially with F-104. We may see some top notch performance on their behalf for this facelifted F-104."

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 06:26
by spazsinbad
Erdogan Tells of Two Missile Defense Deals With Russia [Voice of America - same as 'loke' earlier version above]
18 May 2019 VoA

"ANKARA — Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said Saturday that the purchase of S-400 defense systems from Russia was a done deal, adding that Ankara would also jointly produce S-500 defense systems with Moscow.

U.S. officials have called Turkey's planned purchase of the S-400 missile defense system "deeply problematic," saying it would risk Ankara's partnership in the joint strike fighter F-35 program because it would compromise the jets, made by Lockheed Martin Corp.

However, Erdogan said at a televised question-and-answer session with university students in Istanbul that Turkey had carried out technical work and found that such a problem did not exist.

"They [the U.S.] are passing the ball around in the midfield now, showing some reluctance. But sooner or later, we will receive the F-35s. [The U.S.] not delivering them is not an option," he said...." [QUE? must be accurate]

Source: https://www.voanews.com/a/erdogan-tells ... 23097.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 11:51
by marsavian
It's been obvious for any serious observers of that guy for the last few years that he is not playing with a full deck which irrespective of this F-35 issue means he is one of the most dangerous players on the geopolitical scene. He doesn't accept election results, indulges in ballot stuffing for his own and plays NATO off against Russia and vice versa. One dangerous bipolar power crazed dude with the resources of a major regional military power behind him

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 14:11
by polarbear
marsavian wrote:It's been obvious for any serious observers of that guy for the last few years that he is not playing with a full deck which irrespective of this F-35 issue means he is one of the most dangerous players on the geopolitical scene. He doesn't accept election results, indulges in ballot stuffing for his own and plays NATO off against Russia and vice versa. One dangerous bipolar power crazed dude with the resources of a major regional military power behind him


He is also a thief, shameless liar, tactless blockhead with some cunning, and a staunch supporter of religious sects. His greed has no bounds; he will not spend a dime unless he could embezzle a portion of it. His only concern is not to lose power so that he wont have to answer for his crimes. It is Davutoğlu and Gul who were dangerous. Against all common sense they made commitments with disastrous consequences. Normalization takes time and resources; Erdogan's embezzling tendencies is not speeding up the process.

I am curious about one thing. Despite all his faults; Erdoğan managed to keep a considerable portion of public at his side. What is the forum's opinion about why this is happening?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 15:43
by loke
polarbear wrote:This CV conveniently excludes his involvement with Zaman and Today's Zaman newspapers. Also his time with Sabah is barely mentioned. His nationality is not turkish anymore but swedish. His attempts to get Banu Avar, a journalist making news on Sweden's extensive support to PKK, fired from her job and get her imprisoned have not been forgotten. Before relations between Erdogan and Gulen went sour, he was an avid supporter of rookie sultan. He is not a reliable source of truth but a propaganda outlet.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-b ... ldnt-23629

Could the russians be hostile becouse US backed off from this deal? In europe their aggresiveness do not extend beyond the border mentioned above. And they resort to violence only in SSSR space after US puppets severely outstepped their bounds in their areas. NATO is the offender here and russians remained well within their rights according to international law and the agreement above. Considering what NATO and US proxies have done since 1990's in SSSR boundaries, russians acted with extreme restraint and caution.

Regarding the enlargement of NATO:

Second, the authors assert that the end of the Cold War obviated the traditional rationale for NATO: to keep America in, Germany down, and Russia out. While one can argue about the first and last reasons, the middle one was still salient – even essential – after the Berlin Wall fell because of fears over reunification between East and West Germany. Many European policymakers at the time still had living memories of World War II and some, including Margaret Thatcher, harbored deep concerns over Germany’s future role in Europe. Simply put, Germany was not considered “a stable and trustworthy democracy” as the authors assert. West Germany might’ve been those things in some people’s eyes, but there still were serious doubts – both in NATO and the former Warsaw Pact – about what direction a powerful, unified Germany was going to take. That reunification occurred within the constraining structure of NATO was an important ameliorating factor. Neither Moscow nor London was looking at an unfettered Germany, but one still embedded in the European Union and NATO, constrained politically by Brussels and militarily by Washington. This is an important point about NATO’s post-Cold War role that is now all but forgotten.

Third, the authors state that after 1991, “NATO reached out to the former Soviet satellites in Eastern Europe, initially offering them a kind of associate membership (the Partnership for Peace) and then permanent membership.” This is backwards causality. NATO didn’t “reach out” to these countries. Rather, those countries came knocking on the alliance’s door. Partnership for Peace wasn’t an associate membership. It was an ad hoc policy stalling tactic (that included formal participation by Russia, at least initially). Essentially, most of the former Warsaw Pact wanted treaty-guaranteed protection from their former overlord and occupier. Not knowing whether Washington wanted to do this, whether it was politically feasible, or even a good idea, Partnership for Peace was proffered as a “halfway house,” while the various extant alliance members sorted out their strategic and policy options. Sen. Richard Lugar once quipped that “PfP” – the acronym for the program – really stood for “Policy for Postponement.”


Simply put, drawing lines enhances stability. What’s something no one talks about anymore? The Polish question. Yet for over a century and a half Poland’s status and loyalties were at the heart of multiple dangerous and costly wars. NATO membership settled that. Likewise, while there are legitimate questions about the defensibility of the Baltic states, from a strategic standpoint, knowing that NATO is committed to their defense enhances stability between them and Russia. The Baltic-Russian relationship isn’t perfect, but it is nowhere near as fraught as that between Russia and Ukraine. Some of this is due to the far better levels of governance and economic performance in the Baltic states than in Ukraine. But the fact that the security situation is settled and plain for all to see also encourages normalcy and makes clear the strategic consequences if Russia wants to be aggressive. Take away NATO membership, and the situation in the Baltic states is far more destabilizing and (as in the current case of Ukraine) retains greater potential for an unintended escalation of tensions between Russia and the West. NATO membership for the Baltic states enhances European security and is a direct element of stability in relations between Washington and Moscow, full stop. That is the definition of a contribution to our security.

While some argue that Baltic NATO membership engenders a sense of encirclement on Russia’s part (thereby working against stability), it’s in the nature of alliances that those “inside the line” may feel safe only at the cost of heightened anxiety on the part of those “outside the line.” That Russia is anxious about Baltic membership can’t be avoided to some extent, but it also doesn’t mean the danger is real.

https://warontherocks.com/2019/03/nato- ... ngs-right/

Critics of U.S. foreign policy, particularly those who hail from the “realist” school of international relations, consider NATO expansion a fateful, even tragic error. NATO had lost its purpose after the Cold War ended, they claim; it should have been disbanded or, at best, frozen in amber. But instead, it marched steadily eastward, snapping up former Warsaw Pact members and eventually former Soviet republics Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. This aggressive policy ultimately exhausted Russian patience, triggering Moscow’s wars against Georgia and Ukraine and driving the renewed confrontation between the Kremlin and the West. In 2014, University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer put NATO expansion front and center in arguing that Russia’s annexation of Crimea was actually the West’s fault.

Yet the Mearsheimer of 2014 would have done well to acquaint himself with the Mearsheimer of 1990. That year, he wrote a widely read essay predicting that post-Cold War Europe would become an anarchic hellscape. Russia and Germany would compete viciously for influence. Countries would race to arm themselves; nuclear proliferation would run rampant. The Cold War had been a sort of vacation from history, Mearsheimer suggested. With that conflict over, the continent would be thrust back into its violent past.

This didn’t happen, of course. Even accounting for the Balkan civil wars of the 1990s and Russian aggression more recently, Europe made remarkable strides toward democracy and stability, and there was zero nuclear proliferation. Europe moved forward, not backward, and NATO expansion was a critical reason why. For one thing, NATO expansion kept America in Europe. When the Cold War ended, many observers predicted that the U.S. would withdraw, as it had done after World War I. Yet expanding NATO gave the alliance — and America’s role in it — new purpose. The U.S. did not again retreat across the ocean, leaving turmoil and seething rivalry in its wake. It recommitted to playing its stabilizing role not just in Western Europe but across the continent.

Second, NATO expansion kept the German problem solved. A great fear of the early 1990s was that a reunified and independent Germany, no longer hemmed in by NATO on one side and the Warsaw Pact on the other, would return to its predatory ways. Instead, the U.S. ensured that it remained closely tethered to NATO, surrounded by allied states, and thoroughly pacified. To hear U.S. officials complain today that Germany has become too demilitarized, that it does not behave assertively enough, is to understand just how completely this mission succeeded.

Third, NATO expansion kept the demons at bay in Eastern Europe. It was not foolish to fear trouble there in the early 1990s. Ethnic tensions were on the rise; many former Soviet allies harbored revisionist territorial claims. There was no shortage of underemployed scientists who might have helped Poland or other vulnerable states build the bomb.
But NATO wrapped its security blanket around the former Warsaw Pact nations, committing them to accepting their existing frontiers, giving them the protection that allowed them to forego nuclear weapons, and creating the climate of reassurance in which democratic and economic reforms could occur. A reinvigorated NATO even provided stability beyond its own boundaries, intervening to stop ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia.

Finally, NATO expansion was a crucial hedge against the failure of Russian reform and integration. U.S. officials wanted to foster a democratic Russia that would join the West and remain at peace with its neighbors. This is why they bent over backward throughout the 1990s to give President Boris Yeltsin the benefit of the doubt.Yet Washington also had to reckon with the dangers that might reemerge if liberalization failed and a more aggressive Russia reemerged. This is precisely what eventually happened — but in the intervening years, NATO expansion had moved the dividing line between Moscow and the West much farther to the east, and given many of Russia’s neighbors the security guarantees that still help them keep the Kremlin at bay. Putin’s Russia has invaded and mutilated two countries — Ukraine and Georgia — that are not NATO members. It has coerced and intimidated, but not invaded, any country that belongs to the alliance.

As for the critique that it was NATO expansion that provoked Russian revisionism, this argument has always been flimsy. Yes, the expansion angered Russian officials, during Yeltsin’s time as well as Putin’s. It was undoubtedly humiliating for the fallen superpower. But the idea that NATO expansion caused Russian aggression rests on an implicit counterfactual argument that, absent NATO expansion, Russia would not have behaved in a domineering fashion toward countries on its border. There is simply nothing in Russian history — and nothing in Vladimir Putin’s personality — that supports this argument.


https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... in-invaded

So to summarize: The Eastern European countries "came knocking on the door" of NATO, not the other way around. The enlargement was frustrating to Russia but led to stability and peace in most of Europe. A frustrated Russia is a small prize to pay for such a highly beneficial outcome. In hindsight, NATO enlargement was the right thing to do.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 20:17
by milosh
@loke

Georgia wasn't invaded, Russian troops were there as part of peace treaty which saved Tbilisi during 1990s war. It look Bloomberg forgot to mentioned that.

Also it is funny how Bloomberg is okey with breaking deals with Russia which is only country in world which can destroy USA while Bloomberg is pissing on Trump when he break deals with countries which can't do nothing to USA.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 21:40
by madrat
It's not an invasion if 50 division drive peacefully over the one division Georgia could field. :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 22:27
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:@loke

Georgia wasn't invaded, Russian troops were there as part of peace treaty which saved Tbilisi during 1990s war. It look Bloomberg forgot to mentioned that.

Also it is funny how Bloomberg is okey with breaking deals with Russia which is only country in world which can destroy USA while Bloomberg is pissing on Trump when he break deals with countries which can't do nothing to USA.



So the US could send tens of thousands of troops into Havana Cuba by force, but its no invasion since we occupy Guantanamo Bay as a part of previous treaties?

This is exciting news

I guess I can forget all the reports I read about the Russian invasion that pointed to a very lethal and potent force that was leveling up in terms of competence. There was no tactical lessons there afterall I guess.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2019, 07:19
by milosh
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:@loke

Georgia wasn't invaded, Russian troops were there as part of peace treaty which saved Tbilisi during 1990s war. It look Bloomberg forgot to mentioned that.

Also it is funny how Bloomberg is okey with breaking deals with Russia which is only country in world which can destroy USA while Bloomberg is pissing on Trump when he break deals with countries which can't do nothing to USA.



So the US could send tens of thousands of troops into Havana Cuba by force, but its no invasion since we occupy Guantanamo Bay as a part of previous treaties?

This is exciting news

I guess I can forget all the reports I read about the Russian invasion that pointed to a very lethal and potent force that was leveling up in terms of competence. There was no tactical lessons there afterall I guess.


Not same scenario at all.

It would be same scenario if Cuba tries to retake Guantanamo and then kill and capture US troops. That is what happen in Georgia in 2008.

In Georgia Russian peace keepers are from 1990s when separatists were on brink of wining war with Georgian army, road to Tbilisi was opened and only because of western pressure on Boris J, Russia force separatists to stop offensive and accept peace deal which is guaranteed by Russian peace keepers.

Then in 2008 war Georgians attack those same peace keeping troops which allow Russia to send 58th army in Georgia.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2019, 15:17
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:@loke

Georgia wasn't invaded, Russian troops were there as part of peace treaty which saved Tbilisi during 1990s war. It look Bloomberg forgot to mentioned that.

Also it is funny how Bloomberg is okey with breaking deals with Russia which is only country in world which can destroy USA while Bloomberg is pissing on Trump when he break deals with countries which can't do nothing to USA.



So the US could send tens of thousands of troops into Havana Cuba by force, but its no invasion since we occupy Guantanamo Bay as a part of previous treaties?

This is exciting news

I guess I can forget all the reports I read about the Russian invasion that pointed to a very lethal and potent force that was leveling up in terms of competence. There was no tactical lessons there afterall I guess.


Not same scenario at all.

It would be same scenario if Cuba tries to retake Guantanamo and then kill and capture US troops. That is what happen in Georgia in 2008.

In Georgia Russian peace keepers are from 1990s when separatists were on brink of wining war with Georgian army, road to Tbilisi was opened and only because of western pressure on Boris J, Russia force separatists to stop offensive and accept peace deal which is guaranteed by Russian peace keepers.

Then in 2008 war Georgians attack those same peace keeping troops which allow Russia to send 58th army in Georgia.



So how would you describe what the 58th did there? :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2019, 21:29
by milosh
XanderCrews wrote:So how would you describe what the 58th did there? :mrgreen:


Maintaining peace treaty which Georgians sign in 1990s

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2019, 21:47
by loke
WASHINGTON — Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.
By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel a multibillion-dollar deal with Russia and instead buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system — or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.

As it stands now, the U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, multiple sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity told CNBC when asked whether the deadline had room for more extensions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/turkey- ... lties.html

The clock is ticking...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2019, 15:12
by duplex
loke wrote:
WASHINGTON — Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.
By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel a multibillion-dollar deal with Russia and instead buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system — or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.

As it stands now, the U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, multiple sources who spoke on the condition of anonymity told CNBC when asked whether the deadline had room for more extensions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/turkey- ... lties.html

The clock is ticking...


My prediction is that the dictator Erdogan will tell the US ' go to hell' and will take delivery of S-400's with an option to buy even more and also order the Russian SU-35 and even SU-57 .. Putin will of course be delighted.. Just a thought ...
lets wait and see..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 06:24
by loke
Turkish naval officers who were indicted in 2013 for alleged involvement in a military espionage ring that obtained classified Turkish, NATO and US documents were not only allowed to stay in the military but were promoted to senior ranks in many cases.
According to secret navy documents obtained by Nordic Monitor, the officers, who were found to have leaked classified documents in exchange for illicit ***** and other favors, were protected by the government of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. The criminal case that was based on 1,900 pages of documentary evidence that included wiretaps, physical evidence and digital footprints was hushed up under pressure from the government.
The five-page secret document that shows what happened to all suspects was dated April 6, 2018 and signed by naval Capt. Ünal Aydoğdu, who is responsible for the navy’s human resources department. The document lists the current status of 85 officers. Among them 40 officers including an admiral, a rear admiral and many captains retired, while the rest are continuing to serve.
According to a review of their current status, some of the officers were appointed to critical positions in Turkey and abroad. For example, Yalcin Özkütük, who was promoted to the rank of rear admiral, is serving in the General Staff intelligence section. Another suspect, Mustafa Kaya, also promoted to rear admiral, is working in the planning department at the General Staff, overseeing air and sea borders with respect to Greece and Cyprus. Özgur Özcan Altunbulak, promoted to captain, is currently serving as chief of staff at the Turkish Military Representative (TMR) office at NATO headquarters in Brussels.
Col. Erdal Şener, a suspect in the case, is assigned to the Ministry of Defense and working in the unit responsible for the security of NATO in Turkey. Capt. Murat Dinçman is assigned to the NATO Maritime Command, Northwood, United Kingdom, and works in operations. Several captains are in charge of navy frigates, according to the documents.

In the indictment, 357 suspects including 55 active duty officers and numerous retired officers were named when the prosecutor filed criminal charges against the gang in 2013. The indictment also mentions 831 victims and 196 co-plaintiffs.
According to the indictment, the gang hired foreign women as prostitutes to send to military officers from whom the gang eventually obtained classified military information. The gang’s main objective was to earn profits through the sale of confidential military documents to third parties, according to the indictment. The gang, which included civilian suspects, infiltrated the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) and had many members from inside the military, which facilitated its activities in establishing contact with high-ranking officers and obtaining confidential documents from them.
The indictment reveals how NATO and US security was compromised. For example, NATO documents seized from suspect Narin Korkmaz during the execution of a search warrant identified Alparslan Yücel Soysal, also a suspect in the case, as revealing in detail the assets and capabilities of Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EAD) units operating in every NATO member state. The note next to his name clearly singles out Russia, China and Iran as potential clients for these documents.

A suspect named Bülent Karaaslan, a bomb expert, supplied secret US and NATO directives in bomb-making and bomb-diffusion techniques to the spy ring. Suspect Aydın Şit, an air force officer, handed over FBI bomb-making analyses to the gang that explained, among other things, how to make improvised bombs manually and where in the car these bombs should be planted. Suspect Ersin Kapucu, an air force pilot, was identified as an important source for electronic warfare data and information on how it is used in the Turkish Air Force (THK) and NATO. He supplied 22 power point presentation files dated 2009. A note in his file says he was soon expected to supply pass codes, which the gang believed would be very beneficial.
The gang obtained from a mark named İsmail Demir a hard copy of top secret details on AIM-120 missiles used in Turkish F-16 fighter jets. The note advises that he be rewarded for supplying this sensitive information. Another mark named Andaç Keskin, an officer at the field corps school of engineering in İzmir, was identified as an important asset in hooking up with NATO officers. The note about him says he knows many NATO officers and coordinates logistics for them. It says Keskin operated out of the Aktur Hotel in İzmir, where many NATO officers stayed, in a room fitted with surveillance equipment.
Suspect Nuri Dereli, a flight lieutenant, supplied the gang with a very sensitive file called “Tur_AEM_F16.pdf” which is 954 pages long in English and classified as “Secret Releasable to USA, TUR.” It details technical, tactical and procedural data for F-16s. The note attached to this file says it should not be obtained by anybody else. It even warned that when a file of a similar nature was previously leaked, it created problems between Turkey and the US. “I repeat it should not be leaked in order not to experience similar problems with the US,” the note added.
Similarly, suspect Okay Yalçın, an air force officer, leaked sensitive information on US-made Hawk medium-range surface-to-air missile systems, including a 24-page secret document titled “60G-2-2-70 Hawk Passive Engagement System.pdf.” Another set of documents seized from suspect Saygın Özdemir details performance reports of pilots assigned to the 151st squadron and their evaluations on war preparedness. A document titled “F-1” reveals frequencies and positions pilots use with ground control at the 5th Air Base and was described as vital information that cannot be allowed to be leaked to the enemy in wartime. Another document explains how the ammunition loaded on F-16s should be used and under what conditions. It says this document cannot be transferred to any country other than Turkey and the US. A document leaked by Gökhan Gülbalar explains the nuts and bolts of a signal intelligence system named Milsis-23u, used within the General Staff’s Electronic Systems Command (GES), the military’s most comprehensive and top secret communications interception unit.
The indictment also said the spy ring sent some of the confidential military documents to terrorist groups, endangering the security of the state and its citizens. The suspects are also accused of hiring foreign women as prostitutes to send to military officers. The prostitutes would illegally obtain personal information about these officers and blackmail them into providing the spy ring with classified information. The group was based in İzmir and had branches in a number of other provinces.
Documents seized from suspected members of the espionage ring showed that it kept tabs on dozens of military officers due to their ideological or religious backgrounds.
The indictment also identified the leader of the spy ring as Bilgin Özkaynak, a businessman, Korkmaz, a young university student, as his aide. The prosecutor demanded life sentences for 11 suspects, including Özkaynak and Korkmaz, on accusations of establishing and running an illegal organization; illegally obtaining secret military and personal information; sharing that information with third parties; and endangering state security.
According to the indictment, Korkmaz had a false military ID that showed her as a lieutenant colonel, and she was free to enter military barracks and units wearing a uniform, thanks to the ID. Prosecutors added a few photos of Korkmaz taken when she was wearing a military uniform.
The indictment also included excerpts from documents seized from the espionage gang that clearly show how members forced military officers to give them confidential military information after video taping them in sexual encounters with the foreign women hired by the gang. “We obtained the [military] plans for attack and defense in the event of a war in the Black Sea thanks to photos obtained by T.D. T.D. will serve as our eyes and ears in the military from now on. M.T.A. says he liked the blonde we sent him. We have footage of sexual intercourse between General A.L.T.’s son T with E.İ. We also have footage of General Ş.’s daughter. We will follow them all,” read the documents.
The criminal case against the gang members was quashed by the Erdoğan government, and all suspects were let go. Many returned to their duties in the Turkish military, advancing in the ranks despite their controversial records.


The full five-page secret report is posted below:

https://www.nordicmonitor.com/2019/05/t ... documents/

This cannot possibly be true!??

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 06:52
by optimist
Japan got a lot of US classified stuff the same way. I don't know how much was blackmail and how much was coerced with money as well. I recall it was about 10-15 years ago, but would need to look up the details

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 07:13
by loke
optimist wrote:Japan got a lot of US classified stuff the same way. I don't know how much was blackmail and how much was coerced with money as well. I recall it was about 10-15 years ago, but would need to look up the details

Unfortunately these things happen -- however it seems very strange to stop the investigation, drop all charges, and promote the people involved!

I guess after the massive purge of military personnel Erdogan has very limited options of finding qualified people..?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 07:30
by optimist
loke wrote:
optimist wrote:Japan got a lot of US classified stuff the same way. I don't know how much was blackmail and how much was coerced with money as well. I recall it was about 10-15 years ago, but would need to look up the details

Unfortunately these things happen -- however it seems very strange to stop the investigation, drop all charges, and promote the people involved!

I guess after the massive purge of military personnel Erdogan has very limited options of finding qualified people..?

I googled 2013 year of the indictments. To see if there was a back story. to fill in the gaps. 2013 was a busy year,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_corr ... _in_Turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 08:50
by pron
Get Turkey out of the F-35 program and Nato as fast as possible. The dictator Erdogan is a crazy man. He have now also started to cast doubt about the The Armenian Genocide 1915 – 1917.
https://twitter.com/trpresidency/status ... 6753803265

Support Greece and Cypros and let Turkey go.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2019, 23:09
by spazsinbad
Wolters: US, Turkey Focused on Solving S-400 Dispute as Deadline Looms
22 May 2019 Brian Everstine

"NATO and the US are “very, very” focused on resolving the differences with Turkey as the country reportedly faces a new deadline to decide between the F-35 and Russian-made S-400 system, the head of US European Command said May 22. USAF Gen. Tod Wolters, speaking at a meeting of the NATO chiefs of defense in Brussels, said even though both the governments of Turkey and the US have expressed their opinions on the situation, “You never know what the future will reveal.”

The US will not allow the existence of the F-35 in the vicinity of the S-400 system, said Wolters, who also is NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander, Europe. The US State Department has set a deadline of the end of the first week of June to reject the S-400 system, or be removed from the F-35 program, reported CNBC on Tuesday....
[ https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/turkey- ... lties.html ] [extract below]

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... Looms.aspx

Turkey has until next month to cancel a messy multibillion-dollar Russian arms deal or face harsh US penalties
21 May 2019 Amanda Macias

"Key Points
- Turkey has a little more than two weeks to decide whether to complete a complex arms deal with the U.S. or risk severe penalties by going through with an agreement to buy a missile system from Russia, according to multiple people familiar with the matter.

- By the end of the first week of June, Turkey must cancel the Russian deal and buy Raytheon’s U.S.-made Patriot missile defense system or face removal from Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program, forfeiture of 100 promised F-35 jets, imposition of U.S. sanctions and potential blowback from NATO.

- The U.S. State Department’s current offer is the final one, according to multiple sources....

...Last year, Turkey was in the process of constructing a site for the S-400 system, according to a person with firsthand knowledge of an intelligence report. The intelligence assessment included satellite imagery of a concrete launch facility as well as bunkers, according to the person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The new construction fits the pattern for Russia’s S-400 system, the person indicated. [ https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/turkey- ... ystem.html ]

If Turkey does receive its S-400 from the Kremlin this summer, the system is expected to be ready for use by 2020."

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/21/turkey- ... lties.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2019, 00:06
by spazsinbad
Panel: US/Turkey Dispute Over Buying Russian Air Defense System Has Deeper Roots
22 May 2019 John Grady

"...[experts say] Turkey doesn’t understand that, for the United States, buying a sophisticated Russian air defense system is a major national security issue that can’t be papered over. But Americans don’t understand that all their tough talk about leveling sanctions against Turkey if the Russian arms sale goes through only plays into Turkish leaders’ hands politically, a panel of experts said Wednesday.

Speaking at a forum on Ankara-Washington relations hosted by the Hudson Institute in Washington, Hudson fellow Blaise Misztal said that, to President Tayyip Erdogan and his political coalition partners, “sanctions and kicking you out of NATO is a winning policy” because it fuels long-standing and growing anti-Americanism in their nationalist-leaning array of parties....

...Misztal and Alan Makovsky, senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, noted 72 percent of Turks feel threatened by the United States. This fear is twice as great as Russians’ fear of the United States. Turkey is a NATO ally and is in a series of bilateral security and trade arrangement with the United States. The Center for American Progress helped devise that poll and analyze its results.

As an example, Turkey’s major issue with the U.S. today is not the F-35/S-400 debate but rather who was responsible for the attempted coup in July 2016, the panel noted...." [jump at the more.... :doh: ]

Source: https://news.usni.org/2019/05/22/panel- ... eper-roots

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2019, 04:09
by madrat
Turkey's lack of public outcry just cements American leadership. Erdogan did us a favor.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2019, 04:14
by spazsinbad
I'm wondering what the censorship and propaganda situation is like today in Turkey. Judge the politicians NOT the people.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2019, 20:13
by spazsinbad
Turkey looks set to defy US and proceed with Russian S-400 acquisition
23 May 2019 Kerry Herschelman

"Key Points
• There are increased signs that Turkey will not scrap its Russian S-400 deal despite the US threat of sanctions

• If Ankara continues with the deal the F-35s it had on order could be stopped and the country could also be subject to Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) sanctions...

...In defiance of US warnings, however, Turkish Defence Minister Hulusi Akar told local media on 21 May that Turkey is preparing for all scenarios, including possible US sanctions, over its Russian S-400 deal. “We need to set up an air defence system to protect our 82 million people and our country,” Akar said, stressing that Turkey was under threat of air and missile attacks from its border with Syria.

He added that the United States was still trying to dissuade Turkey from purchasing the Russian SAMs but that Ankara was determined to go through with the deal. “We tell them it's a ‘done deal’ but they keep telling us ‘No deal is a done deal’,” he noted.

“Turkey is also making preparations for the potential implementation of CAATSA sanctions,” he said, falling short of detailing preparations to this end."

Source: https://www.janes.com/article/88744/tur ... cquisition

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2019, 22:50
by loke
The SASC FY 2020 defence bill bans F-35 transfers to Turkey if the nation moves forward with acquiring the Russian S-400 system
This is the first step in a process that, if approved by the president, could formally ban sending F-35s to Turkey
The US fiscal year 2020 (FY 2020) defence authorisation bill approved by the Senate Armed Services Committee (SASC) on 23 May bans Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) transfers to Turkey if it proceeds with acquiring the Russian S-400 air and missile defence system.
This provision also applies to equipment intellectual property (IP), technical data necessary for the maintenance and support of the F-35, and for the construction of facilities in Turkey to store the aircraft.


https://www.janes.com/article/88770/us- ... -to-turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2019, 05:06
by spazsinbad
USN may get giggles out of this USAF F-86E Flight Handbook cartoon about olde schoole IFF destroy advice at NAS Podunk:

https://ln.sync.com/dl/a6b3934d0/75j45x ... 5906210010 (PDF 63 Mb)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2019, 12:02
by spazsinbad
Turkey chops F35s. What now?
26 May 2019 Jon G. Isaac

"In January, the Center for International Maritime Security published an article [ http://cimsec.org/why-turkish-f-35s-are ... nato/39465 ] in which the author advocated against Turkey’s ongoing participation in the development, manufacture, & eventual purchase of the F-35 Lighting II. Broadly, as January’s piece noted, debate over Ankara’s eventual acquisition of the F-35 has come as a result of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s insistence upon purchasing & operating the Russian-made S-400 Triumf air defense missile system (NATO reporting tag: SA-21 Growler)….

Where Do We Go From Here?
It appears, for now, that Ankara faces a choice. In Washington, legislative efforts to bar sales of the F-35 to Turkey seem to have garnered bipartisan support and congressional support. In Ankara, Erdogan leveraged the S-400 issue at almost all of his campaign rallies leading up to the March 31st Turkish elections. Elections which, coincidentally, took a toll on Erdogan’s AKP party on the local level. Nevertheless, Erdogan has continued to posture surrounding the S-400 issue, with the European Council on Foreign Relation’s Asli Aydıntaşbaş writing that Erdogan has seemingly adopted the issue as “a sign of his virility, his independence, his power on the world stage that he could say no to [the] United States.”

Internally, it seems that there are those among Erdogan’s staff who believe the Americans are bluffing and that both systems will eventually solidify themselves in the Turkish arsenal. They are not entirely helpless, either, with American basing rights at the critical Incirlik Air Base standing as a potential bargaining chip for Turkish negotiators. Turkish negotiators face a hard battle, however, as the Pentagon has said it is already looking for alternatives to the F-35 parts currently made in Turkey.

This standoff has not only placed pressure on the Turkish-U.S. relationship, but moreover is raising questions about Ankara’s standing within NATO as a whole. Rick Berger, a former Senate Budget Committee staffer and current researcher at the American Enterprise Institute has noted that this flashpoint has repeatedly brought up, “the whole ‘Should Turkey be in NATO?’ question.” Moreover, the NATO countries that operate the F-35 have internally expressed concern over interoperability with Turkish airframes should they link to the S-400. At a time when Russian President Vladimir Putin has regularly engaged in policies aimed at destabilizing the transatlantic alliance, perhaps the Turkish F-35 crisis presents not just a commercial or political threat to the U.S.-Turkey relationship, but a strategic threat to NATO as a whole."

Source: https://navalinstitute.com.au/turkey-ch ... -what-now/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2019, 12:06
by polarbear
loke wrote:
Turkish naval officers who were indicted in 2013 for alleged involvement in a military espionage ring that obtained classified Turkish, NATO and US documents were not only allowed to stay in the military but were promoted to senior ranks in many cases.

...... deleted the filth in between to conserve space .......

The indictment also included excerpts from documents seized from the espionage gang that clearly show how members forced military officers to give them confidential military information after video taping them in sexual encounters with the foreign women hired by the gang. “We obtained the [military] plans for attack and defense in the event of a war in the Black Sea thanks to photos obtained by T.D. T.D. will serve as our eyes and ears in the military from now on. M.T.A. says he liked the blonde we sent him. We have footage of sexual intercourse between General A.L.T.’s son T with E.İ. We also have footage of General Ş.’s daughter. We will follow them all,” read the documents.
[b]The criminal case against the gang members was quashed by the Erdoğan government, and all suspects were let go. Many returned to their duties in the Turkish military, advancing in the ranks despite their controversial records.


The full five-page secret report is posted below:

https://www.nordicmonitor.com/2019/05/t ... documents/

This cannot possibly be true!??


Becouse it is not true. This website is run by Gulen's disciples. Not a reliable source.

This case is a "von Fritsch" type. Malik Ejder is the lawyer of one of the victims; he has videos on his twitter account showing dirty policemen, finding evidence without searching or raiding the house of his client to plant false evidence. Tragicomical stuff. It is a product of a time when rookie sultan and mad imam were in good terms, and rookie sultan was afraid of army. In this case and its sisters, no dirty trick was spared; and to be able to do so they wrecked juricidial system.
It is one of major reasons why turkish people hate them so much.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 06:37
by spazsinbad
I'll guess a more reliable source for this 'talking Turkey' (or is it TURKEY TALKIN' - like JIVE TALKIN'?) or just gobble gobble?
EXCLUSIVE: Trump approves Turkish offer for joint S-400 study group
31 May 2019 Ragip Soylu

"In call with Turkish president, Trump agrees to body to find ways to cohabit Ankara's purchase of F-35s and Russian missile system

US President Donald Trump has accepted an offer to form a joint technical study group with Turkey to investigate Washington's concerns over Ankara's purchase of the Russian-made S-400 missile system, Middle East Eye has learned. According to several Turkish officials, Trump, in a phone call with Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan on Wednesday, overruled the Pentagon and the State Department who had been against the study group.

US officials were concerned that Ankara's purchase of the missile system would put advanced stealth F-35 fighter jets, which Turkey has also ordered, at risk because Moscow could steal sensitive information through the system's radar. Confident of their assessment on the dangers posed by the missile system, US defence officials had refused to participate in the study group multiple times over the course of the past two months.

In a single phone call, that policy changed.

US National Security Council spokesman Garrett Marquis told Middle East Eye that there's "nothing new to announce at this time". "We have been clear that obtaining the S-400 would create an unacceptable risk to US technology, our pilots, and our aircraft," Marquis added.

Similarly, Pentagon spokesman Eric Pahon said that discussions remain ongoing. "The United States has sent technical teams to Turkey more than once and hosted counterparts here to discuss the threat posed by the S-400, our mutual participation in the F-35 programme, and the US Patriot offer," Pahon added....

...However, there is a consensus among the foreign policy establishment both in Turkey and the US that the White House does not have much power against the members of Congress who are adamant about implementing sanctions against Turkey over the Russian missile system.

Last week, a final draft of the National Defence Authorisation Act barred the transfer of F-35s to Turkey in the case of the purchase of the S-400 missile system. US legislators also threatened the Trump administration that they could ratify specific laws to target Turkey if the president doesn't enforce the existing law that invokes sanctions against Ankara."

Source: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/trum ... fer-s-400s

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 05:05
by polarbear
We have a name for these people: "white trolls". Most of what they write is trash but sometimes they have insider info. This one looks like one of the better educated ones among the pack.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 05:34
by Corsair1963
The Congress has the final says and it won't provide F-35's to Turkey. If, they acquire the S-400. Regardless, what Trump wants.....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 11:50
by polarbear
Corsair1963 wrote:The Congress has the final says and it won't provide F-35's to Turkey. If, they acquire the S-400. Regardless, what Trump wants.....


We shall see. I am betting my 2 cents on the ingenuity of Lockheed sales people.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 21:25
by SpudmanWP
LM does not want to sell them to Turkey either if Turkey gets the S-400 and especially of Turkey becomes a dev partner on the S-500.

Doing so will hurt all their other sales as customers will rightfully assume that Russia has access to the F-35's radar data if not the jet itself.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 21:45
by vilters
Money talks, all the rest will be forgiven and forgotten in weeks.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 21:51
by SpudmanWP
Money does talk.. 1 sale vs all the rest.

Besides, the USG will not allow is so all this postulation is moot.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 23:44
by Corsair1963
polarbear wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The Congress has the final says and it won't provide F-35's to Turkey. If, they acquire the S-400. Regardless, what Trump wants.....


We shall see. I am betting my 2 cents on the ingenuity of Lockheed sales people.



It's come to a point that many no longer feel that we can trust Turkey. This includes many in NATO. So, this is hardly just a US vs Turkey Issue....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 06:32
by boilermaker
The only way to give Turkey F35s is if we gave them THAADS in a one to one trade for the S400 they get and F35s for whatever S57 they plan on getting. Like that they transfer us their Russian hardware and we give them ours. But it could go the other way, is the problem. I mean we have a serious end user agreement issue with Turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 20:33
by loke
The US government is pushing back against reports that President Donald Trump acquiesced to Turkey’s request to discuss Ankara’s pending purchase of a Russian missile defense system, telling Al-Monitor that its concerns “cannot be mitigated.”

The comments come after the London-based Middle East Eye news site, citing “several Turkish officials,” reported today that Trump had overruled the State and Defense departments and agreed to create a working group on the issue in a phone call with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan earlier this week. US officials have suspended Turkey’s participation in the F-35 fighter jet program over the pending purchase, but Ankara believes it can convince them that the Russian technology isn’t a threat.

“We have been clear that purchasing the S-400 would create an unacceptable risk because its radar system could provide the Russian military sensitive information on the F-35,” Department of Defense spokesman Eric Pahon told Al-Monitor. “Those concerns cannot be mitigated. The S-400 is a system Russia built to try to shoot down aircraft like the F-35, and it is inconceivable to imagine Russia not taking advantage of the collection opportunity.”

Instead, the US administration continues to try to convince its NATO ally to purchase the US-made Patriot missile defense system.


Read more: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... z5pocVAANR

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 21:16
by polarbear
loke wrote:
The US government is pushing back against reports that President Donald Trump acquiesced to Turkey’s request to discuss Ankara’s pending purchase of a Russian missile defense system, telling Al-Monitor that its concerns “cannot be mitigated.”

The comments come after the London-based Middle East Eye news site, citing “several Turkish officials,” reported today that Trump had overruled the State and Defense departments and agreed to create a working group on the issue in a phone call with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan earlier this week. US officials have suspended Turkey’s participation in the F-35 fighter jet program over the pending purchase, but Ankara believes it can convince them that the Russian technology isn’t a threat.

“We have been clear that purchasing the S-400 would create an unacceptable risk because its radar system could provide the Russian military sensitive information on the F-35,” Department of Defense spokesman Eric Pahon told Al-Monitor. “Those concerns cannot be mitigated. The S-400 is a system Russia built to try to shoot down aircraft like the F-35, and it is inconceivable to imagine Russia not taking advantage of the collection opportunity.”

Instead, the US administration continues to try to convince its NATO ally to purchase the US-made Patriot missile defense system.


Read more: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... z5pocVAANR


Nothing new. Both leaders being deadlocked transferred the problem to a powerless committee.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2019, 19:46
by loke
polarbear wrote:
loke wrote:
The US government is pushing back against reports that President Donald Trump acquiesced to Turkey’s request to discuss Ankara’s pending purchase of a Russian missile defense system, telling Al-Monitor that its concerns “cannot be mitigated.”

The comments come after the London-based Middle East Eye news site, citing “several Turkish officials,” reported today that Trump had overruled the State and Defense departments and agreed to create a working group on the issue in a phone call with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan earlier this week. US officials have suspended Turkey’s participation in the F-35 fighter jet program over the pending purchase, but Ankara believes it can convince them that the Russian technology isn’t a threat.

“We have been clear that purchasing the S-400 would create an unacceptable risk because its radar system could provide the Russian military sensitive information on the F-35,” Department of Defense spokesman Eric Pahon told Al-Monitor. “Those concerns cannot be mitigated. The S-400 is a system Russia built to try to shoot down aircraft like the F-35, and it is inconceivable to imagine Russia not taking advantage of the collection opportunity.”

Instead, the US administration continues to try to convince its NATO ally to purchase the US-made Patriot missile defense system.


Read more: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... z5pocVAANR


Nothing new. Both leaders being deadlocked transferred the problem to a powerless committee.

What powerless committees are you referring to?

In any case, Erdogan is not stepping down (or back):
Turkey will not take a step back from S-400 missile deal with Russia, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said on June 4.
“There is an agreement. We have determination. It is out of the question to take a step back from it [S-400 deal],” Erdoğan told reporters in Istanbul.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdoga ... eal-143926

The US is also quite firm:
Kay Bailey Hutchison, the U.S. NATO ambassador and former U.S. senator, told CNBC’s Hadley Gamble Tuesday that Russia is trying to “continue to probe ways” to disrupt and weaken the NATO alliance, adding that a Russian missile system under the same military control as an F-35 fighter jet was unacceptable.
“You have to make a choice. You can have one or the other but not both,” she said, before repeating that Turkey stands to “lose association” with the F-35s that they have already ordered.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/04/us-nato ... chase.html

Turkey is making a huge mistake...

Curiously, while Turkey maintains they need S-400 for "defence", the alliance they are part of (also known as NATO) is keeping the Turks well protected, at least until now:
Madrid is in a process of deciding the extension of Patriot air defense missiles in Turkey's southern Adana province for the next six months, Spanish ambassador in Ankara said.
“Battery of Patriot missiles were deployed in Incirlik Airbase [in Adana province] at the request of Turkey through NATO. We are in the process of deciding extension for the next six months,” Juan Gonzalez-Barba told Anadolu Agency.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/spains ... ths-143877

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2019, 22:51
by polarbear
Spanish patriots are only protecting US base at incirlik, not Turkey. All turkish assets that need protection -Dams, key bridges and tunnels, population centers and ports- are beyond the range of that battery and virtually defenceless except oerlikons, a few ihawks and f-16 interceptors from Malatya and Diyarakır; so it is useless to us. They are only keeping american assets protected, dont think that we overlooked that minor detail. Such actions only deepens our distrust against NATO.

Trump had overruled the State and Defense departments and agreed to create a working group on the issue


This is the committee... Nothing will come out of it. S-400 deal is a done deal; insisting on blackmailing will only make things worse for US. We had a similiar situation with UK at 1914. The government was doing everything possible to keep germans at bay and trying to enter an alliance with british. Brits in turn replied by confiscating two dreadnoughts which were already paid for; effectively pushing ottoman empire into an alliance with axis. In İstanbul nobody could argue for allies after that incident. Germans seizing the opportunity, offered 2 forlorn ships in their stead and rest is history. Turkey is honouring the f-35 contract to the letter and those aircraft are paid for. If US backs off from this deal, it will lose its credibility thus ability to make any deal with Turkey, most probably with disastrous long term consequences.

If you can find, read the prologue section of Liddell Hart's "History of WW I". It tells step by step how germans alienated themselves by backing off Bismarck's deals, by making blackmailing a preferred tool of diplomacy, by abusing previously established relations with "mailed fist with velvet glove" policies. The similarities with US governments actions are striking.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2019, 23:28
by vilters
You seem to like in the past.
For Your Info : Spanish soldiers are protecting NATO assets AGAINST the Turks.
Did you really think they where protecting Turkystan?
Whow ! Wake up man.

We live in times where NATO has to protect itself against another NATO country.
THAT is reality.

Why do you think all Turks with money are fleeing the country in masses? ?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2019, 14:22
by lamoey
In the end, Dictators don't like to be dictated.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2019, 17:37
by falcon.16
polarbear wrote:Spanish patriots are only protecting US base at incirlik, not Turkey. All turkish assets that need protection -Dams, key bridges and tunnels, population centers and ports- are beyond the range of that battery and virtually defenceless except oerlikons, a few ihawks and f-16 interceptors from Malatya and Diyarakır; so it is useless to us. They are only keeping american assets protected, dont think that we overlooked that minor detail. Such actions only deepens our distrust against NATO.

Trump had overruled the State and Defense departments and agreed to create a working group on the issue


This is the committee... Nothing will come out of it. S-400 deal is a done deal; insisting on blackmailing will only make things worse for US. We had a similiar situation with UK at 1914. The government was doing everything possible to keep germans at bay and trying to enter an alliance with british. Brits in turn replied by confiscating two dreadnoughts which were already paid for; effectively pushing ottoman empire into an alliance with axis. In İstanbul nobody could argue for allies after that incident. Germans seizing the opportunity, offered 2 forlorn ships in their stead and rest is history. Turkey is honouring the f-35 contract to the letter and those aircraft are paid for. If US backs off from this deal, it will lose its credibility thus ability to make any deal with Turkey, most probably with disastrous long term consequences.

If you can find, read the prologue section of Liddell Hart's "History of WW I". It tells step by step how germans alienated themselves by backing off Bismarck's deals, by making blackmailing a preferred tool of diplomacy, by abusing previously established relations with "mailed fist with velvet glove" policies. The similarities with US governments actions are striking.


Spanish Patriots system stay in Turkey for protect Turkish territory from some attack from Syrian side. It is official information, not what you can thing.

https://www.moncloa.com/espana-turquia-bateria-patriot/

There are other batteries now or before from other Nato countries too.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2019, 19:48
by loke
polarbear wrote:Spanish patriots are only protecting US base at incirlik, not Turkey. All turkish assets that need protection -Dams, key bridges and tunnels, population centers and ports- are beyond the range of that battery and virtually defenceless except oerlikons, a few ihawks and f-16 interceptors from Malatya and Diyarakır; so it is useless to us. They are only keeping american assets protected, dont think that we overlooked that minor detail. Such actions only deepens our distrust against NATO.

Trump had overruled the State and Defense departments and agreed to create a working group on the issue


This is the committee... Nothing will come out of it. S-400 deal is a done deal; insisting on blackmailing will only make things worse for US. We had a similiar situation with UK at 1914. The government was doing everything possible to keep germans at bay and trying to enter an alliance with british. Brits in turn replied by confiscating two dreadnoughts which were already paid for; effectively pushing ottoman empire into an alliance with axis. In İstanbul nobody could argue for allies after that incident. Germans seizing the opportunity, offered 2 forlorn ships in their stead and rest is history. Turkey is honouring the f-35 contract to the letter and those aircraft are paid for. If US backs off from this deal, it will lose its credibility thus ability to make any deal with Turkey, most probably with disastrous long term consequences.

If you can find, read the prologue section of Liddell Hart's "History of WW I". It tells step by step how germans alienated themselves by backing off Bismarck's deals, by making blackmailing a preferred tool of diplomacy, by abusing previously established relations with "mailed fist with velvet glove" policies. The similarities with US governments actions are striking.

1. As falcon.16 said, the Patriot system is there to protect Turkey. It was positioned in Southern Turkey on request of Turkey. Surely you know this.

2. There is no committe, and will not be a committe:
The US government is pushing back against reports that President Donald Trump acquiesced to Turkey’s request to discuss Ankara’s pending purchase of a Russian missile defense system, telling Al-Monitor that its concerns “cannot be mitigated.”

The comments come after the London-based Middle East Eye news site, citing “several Turkish officials,” reported today that Trump had overruled the State and Defense departments and agreed to create a working group on the issue in a phone call with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan earlier this week. US officials have suspended Turkey’s participation in the F-35 fighter jet program over the pending purchase, but Ankara believes it can convince them that the Russian technology isn’t a threat.

“We have been clear that purchasing the S-400 would create an unacceptable risk because its radar system could provide the Russian military sensitive information on the F-35,” Department of Defense spokesman Eric Pahon told Al-Monitor. “Those concerns cannot be mitigated. The S-400 is a system Russia built to try to shoot down aircraft like the F-35, and it is inconceivable to imagine Russia not taking advantage of the collection opportunity.”

https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... z5q07WQPfb

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 15:58
by polarbear
It is true that we requested those Patriots before desert storm. Sadly what had been sent was only a tiny fraction of what was needed, only enough to protect american assets, placed to protect american assets. The remarks made in private conversations between military officers about the "help" of nato were not of printable type when iraq began launching scuds. Needless to say goodwill and trust toward nato plummeted.

Open the map, plot the area spanish battery is protecting at its current location, only valuable target in it is incirik base. Even iskenderun harbour, petrochem refinery, loading and storage facilities are out of range; which can be covered without comprimisig the safety of incirlik with a simple change of deployment location. True, city of Adana lies within area of protection but nobody will attack Adana while there are much easier targets like Antep or Hatay. It seems spanish government is acting with good intentions in this loan; but placement of battery tells another story.

"https://odatv.com/abdden-turkiyeye-yaptirim-iddiasi-07061922.html"

It seems Washington decided to suspend pilot training. Turkey is being pushed out of NATO step by step and I simply do not understand what US is aiming to gain by achieving it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 18:22
by spazsinbad
US-Turkey Relations At Precipice; New F-35 Restrictions
07 Jun 2019 Colin Clark

"...“There are no measures which can mitigate our concerns” over the impending S-400 deal, Andrew Winternitz, the Pentagon’s acting assistant secretary for NATO policy, said yesterday afternoon at a US Institute for Pearce conference on the European Union.

The Pentagon has scheduled a briefing with acquisition chief Ellen Lord for reporters at 1 pm today and is likely to announce further steps to end Turkey’s participation in the F-35. Turkey has been a substantial partner in the F-35 since the program’s beginning, was committed to buy 100, and several Turkish pilots have trained to fly the plane. At least four planes have been prepared for delivery to Turkey but they have been kept in the United States pending Turkey’s final act on the S-400.

The US has slowly increased the pressure, warning Turkey, threatening to stop delivery of the first four Turkish F-35s, halting delivery of F-35 parts and now we are at the stage where the US will wind up Turkish participation in the program....

...My colleague Lara Seligman at Foreign Policy reported this morning that 42 Turkish students training at Luke and Eglin Air Force Bases “will be required to depart” by July 31. After that, “all international travel orders will be cancelled, and Turkish Air Force personnel will be prohibited from entering the bases.”

Senior military and civilian leaders have warned that Russia could get valuable information about the F-35’s capabilities if Turkey were to operate the S-400s while also flying the Joint Strike Fighter.

In a recent piece for us, Robbin Laird outlined the choices the Turkish leader faces, saying, “Erdogan is acting is if his membership in NATO is a birthright which allows him significant room for maneuver to expand south and east. He needs to learn that he has significantly less room for maneuver if he continues to stab the West in the back.” He may have run out of room."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2019/06/us- ... trictions/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 18:25
by loke
polarbear wrote:It seems Washington decided to suspend pilot training. Turkey is being pushed out of NATO step by step and I simply do not understand what US is aiming to gain by achieving it.

Polarbear, that is bollocks.

The US (and also other NATO countries, in particular those ordering the F-35) has made it very clear that ordering S-400 is not compatible with ordering F-35. This has been stated for a long, long time. It has been explained in detail that Turkey cannot operate both S-400 and F-35. It is very simple. You cannot have both. If you choose the S-400 then you will not have F-35. Why do you pretend to not listen to this? Why do you pretend to not understand?

What do you think would happen if, say, Finland had ordered S-400? Yes, that is correct; they would not get access to F-35. What do you think would happen if Canada (also an F-35 partner) had ordered S-400? Yes, correct: Canada would have been kicked out of the F-35 program, and would not be able to order F-35 until they had gotten rid of the S-400.

The thing is, other NATO countries would not even consider buying a system like S-400 from Russia, one of the few (perhaps only?) country that has officially declared NATO as hostile and a foe. You don't buy strategic military equipment from people that treat you as a foe and tries to undermine you and your allies. Russia has worked hard to undermine the democracies in the US and several European countries, including NATO countries like Germany, the UK and France, but also non-NATO countries including Sweden, Finland and others.

I find it incomprehensible (and also quite disgusting) that a NATO country would buy S-400 from Russia, thereby strengthening Russia's defence industry, and undermining NATO allies at the same time. Even worse (yes, it does get worse) is to suggest to codevelop S-500 with Russia, in addition to buying the S-400.

The US is not kicking Turkey out of NATO. It is Turkey that is proactively taking steps to remove itself from NATO.

Please stop playing stupid and ignorant about NATO. It may work in other, less informed forums, but not around here.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 18:33
by spazsinbad
NATO’s New Military Commander: ‘I Suspect’ Turkish-Alliance Mil-to-Mil Ties Will Endure
07 Jun 2019 Patrick Tucker

"In his first sitdown interview as SHAPE, Gen. Todd Wolters said Ankara cannot have both the F-35 and S-400.

BRATISLAVA, Slovakia — NATO’s recently installed Supreme Allied Commander Europe walked a delicate line on Friday, reiterating U.S. concerns about Turkey’s acquisition of the S-400 anti-aircraft missile system from Russia yet affirming Ankara’s value as an ally.

Gen. Tod Wolters, who also leads U.S. European Command, spoke at the GLOBSEC security conference here in his first sit-down interview since stepping into the job in May. Wolters reiterated other U.S. commanders’ concerns that Turkish S-400s would feed sensitive data to their Russian makers.

“You cannot operate an F-35 in the vicinity of an S-400. They won’t talk to each other, and what the two systems will attempt to do, certainly the S-400 against the F-35, is attempt to exploit the F-35’s capabilities. I can tell you that we aren’t interested in sharing the F-35’s capabilities from a radar perspective, from an operational perspective, with the Russians. We’ve made that very, very clear.”

The United States has decided to stop accepting new Turkish pilots who want to come learn how to fly the plane, according to a Thursday report by Reuters. Citing a June 6 letter from Acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan to his Turkish counterpart, Foreign Policy added that unless Turkey backs out of its S-400 deal by July 31, the United States will cancel Turkish orders for the jet and send home the 42 Turkish pilots currently training on the jet at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida and Luke Air Force Base in Arizona...."

Source: https://www.defenseone.com/politics/201 ... d-topstory

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 20:37
by loke
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is preparing to transfer Turkey’s industrial participation in the F-35 to other countries unless Ankara reverses course on its plans to buy the Russian S-400 air defense system.
The move — which would end contracts with major Turkish defense contractors such as Turkish Aerospace Industries, Roketsan and Tusas Engine Industries among many others in early 2020 — is just one step of many the U.S. Defense Department intends to take to strip Turkey from the F-35 program, according to a June 6 letter by acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan.

“If Turkey procures the S-400, as we discussed during our call on May 28, 2019, our two countries must develop a plan to discontinue Turkey's participation in the F-35 program,” Shanahan wrote in the letter, which was addressed to his counterpart, Turkish defense minister Hulusi Akar. “While we seek to maintain our valued relationship, Turkey will not receive the F-35 if Turkey takes delivery of the S-400.”
However, Ellen Lord, undersecretary of defense for acquisitions and sustainment, noted that Turkish participation in the program would be allowed to continue provided that it drops its plans to buy the Russian air defense system. The delivery of the S-400 could occur as early as this month.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06 ... m-in-2020/

Polarbear you should take notice of the following:
“Turkey still has the option to change course. If Turkey does not accept delivery of the S-400, we will enable Turkey to return to normal F-35 program activities,” she told reporters Friday. “Turkey is a close NATO ally and our military-to-military relationship is strong.”


Does that sound like somebody trying very hard to kick Turkey out of NATO? NOPE!!!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 22:04
by SpudmanWP
US Outlines Plan to Remove Turkey from F-35 Program
The U.S. Defense Department has given Turkey one last chance to cancel its planned order of the Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile system before it begins removing the NATO ally from the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program.

In a letter sent to Turkish Minister of Defence Hulusi Akar, Acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan on Thursday outlined a list of actions the U.S. will begin taking to suspend Turkey's participation in the F-35 program starting July 31.

...

Shanahan said the parameters also restrict Turkey from participating in the annual F-35 Chief Executive Officer Roundtable on June 12.

...


The Defense Department will remove all Turkish personnel from the F-35 Joint Program Office no later than July 31. "At this point, all Invitational Travel Orders (ITOs) and/or Common Access Cards (CACs) will be canceled, and Turkish Air Force personnel will be prohibited from entering JPO facilities," the letter states.

...

Two Turkish instructor pilots have completed training, with four students currently in training, Maj. Rebecca Heyse, 56th Fighter Wing spokeswoman, told Military.com on Friday.

There are now a total of 42 students -- pilots and maintainers -- attending F-35 training in the U.S. at Luke and at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, according to the Pentagon.

...

Lord said Friday that the Pentagon is looking to U.S. suppliers to potentially replace production on parts that Turkey makes for the Joint Strike Fighter program, adding that discussions are ongoing.

Turkish industries produce 937 parts for the F-35, including items for the landing gear and fuselage, she said.

Discussions between the plane's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, and engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney to find alternate sources are "well underway, but [nothing] has been finalized," Lord said.

“Managing a program of this scale and complexity, we are constantly evaluating the supply chain for risks and continue to develop plans that ensure continuity in production," said Mike Friedman, a Lockheed spokesman. "Our team is committed to minimizing any impact to the program so that we can continue to deliver and sustain this transformational capability for all F-35 operators."


Much more at the jump
https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... ogram.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 09:39
by spazsinbad
Turkish suppliers to be eliminated from F-35 program in 2020
07 Jun 2019 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is preparing to transfer Turkey’s industrial participation in the F-35 to other countries unless Ankara reverses course on its plans to buy the Russian S-400 air defense system. The move — which in early 2020 would end contracts with major Turkish defense contractors such as Turkish Aerospace Industries, Roketsan and Tusas Engine Industries, among many others — is just one of many steps the U.S. Defense Department intends to take to strip Turkey from the F-35 program, according to a June 6 letter from acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan....

...Turkish companies are responsible for 937 parts used to build the F-35, with 400 of those sole-sourced from Turkish firms, Lord [Ellen Lord, undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment] said. Existing contracts would go through a “disciplined and graceful wind down” period in “early 2020,” Lord said. “If we can work to our timelines with the Turks, we would have no major disruptions and very few delays,” she said.

Vice Adm. Mat Winter, the F-35’s program executive, said in April that 50-75 aircraft could be delayed over a two-year period if Turkey is removed from the program, according to Breaking Defense. But Lord said those disruptions would occur only if the Pentagon terminated its supply chain agreements this summer.

Ultimately, prime contractors Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney will make the decisions on which subcontractors replace the Turkish vendors, but the Pentagon has identified new suppliers that could step up and make the parts currently sole-sourced by Turkey. “They are predominantly U.S. sources. That’s not to say that we won’t continue to do what we always do with program management and look for other sources, because we would like to have second, third sources for most of the items,” she said....

...Despite Turkey’s industrial role in the program, Lord said she was confident that all important technical information would stay secure. "We control what is downloaded from our computers. We have shared what's appropriate. The Turks have no critical documentation that we're concerned about,” she said....

...In addition, the country will not be allowed to attend the annual F-35 Chief Executive Officer roundtable on June 12 — depriving Turkey of the opportunity to give input on any changes to the program’s governing documents....

...Asked whether a final decision to buy the S-400 should be interpreted as Turkey bolstering its relationship with Russia at the expense of NATO, Andrew Winternitz, acting deputy assistant secretary of defense for Europe, demurred.

“Our counterparts really want to continue our really strategic partnership and our cooperation at NATO. And so we hope this is an aberration,” he said. If Turkey buys the S-400, he added, “it changes our relationship, but it’s not something that we hope is going to disturb the many-layered strategic partnership that we have in Turkey across a number of issues.”

But other political actions may be unavoidable. Should Turkey move forward with the S-400 purchase, it could trigger additional sanctions from Congress as part of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act, which penalizes U.S. partners who purchase Russian military equipment. It could also impact future military exercises in Turkey, Winternitz said."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06 ... m-in-2020/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 10:29
by vilters
Erdoclown should study history.
All dictators end up flat on their belly and with no friends left.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 10:52
by polarbear
I am not playing stupid or ignorant; just trying to show the truth so that someone will listen and take action before the proverbial s..t hits the fan. If not, everybody will be covered with it; it will be much more costly and difficult to clean up; and the stink of it will remain between us for a long time. Within 10 years F-35 will be another standart gadget, its utility much diminished with the development of effective countermeasures. We can do without it, we may be even better without it. And the knowledge of betrayal will remain. Let me give ou a tip what will this lead to. Why Turkey has not bought a single warship from UK for more than a century?

There is not a clause in F-35 project charter and agreement stating Turkey can not buy russian arms. If this matter is that much important; why was it not placed on charter or agreement? We would have known what we were getting into and acted accordingly. Legally speaking US is breaking the deal.

In the case of S-400, Patriots are technically useless -underranged and unreliable in terms of IFF-, horribly expensive and unavailable. We already backed off from a deal with chinese -and suffering all of economical consequences - hoping US would act responsibly; but Patriots remanied technically useless, horribly expensive and unavailable. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice ...

I will wander off the forum topic for a while but it is necessary. Speaking of disgusting matters; it is not russians who are running an armed recessionist movement within turkish border. We killed it twice and US resurrected it, not once but twice. One can not be any more hostile, short of a coup d'état or openly declaring war. And again it was not russians who did not disappoint us on that front and attempted a coup, using a mad imam as catpaw. The guy unabashedly wrote " While we seek to maintain our valued relationship ", as if anything left. Wolters, by the virtue of not being a slimy diplomat or politician, is much more honest and realistic; he knows Turkish - US relations can not go on like that anymore; he can not voice an opposing view aloud, so he "suspect" not "expect". What we expect from US from now on are limited scale armed clashes directly or through catpaws, and considering US armed forces tendency to fire without warning from behind; we wish to be prepared for the incident. S-400 is one of the precautions and will be delivered as soon as possible.


Image

Image

These will not happen again.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 12:28
by pron
Does I smell a bear here? No, it's a troll....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 21:03
by wrightwing
Patriots are unreliable and under-ranged against what threat exactly? The PAC-2 GEM-T and PAC-3 missiles have proven very effective, under real world conditions. Tell us about the S-400's combat record. As for F-35s capabilities being obsolete in 10 years, that's just the height of ignorance. Block 5s will be flying in 10 years, which are considerably more capable, than current models (which are more capable than any threats in production/development.)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 21:08
by magitsu
If Patriot was useless, especially compared to S-400, I wonder why it still sells well. There are alternatives (Thaad, Aster 15/30-based European solutions). There's also several types of missiles to choose from. PAC-2, -3, Stunner (Israel)...

For example Saudi's use of Patriots can be wasteful, hard to gauge whether it's effective or not. But they do, with no lack of evidence. S-400 doesn't have proper references. Only thing that seems somewhat certain is that S-300 doesn't really cut it anymore.

The amount of experience (by Germany et al.) of Patriots in Turkey is unrivaled. It should be reasonable to assume that whatever configuration the German Patriots are currently being upgraded to would suit Turkey fine.

Maybe Turkey should've just kept on leasing capability from buddies like before and not bother with trying to choose what they should buy. Planning to go with a Chinese system first and then Russian is almost like a signal that the motivation has always been trying to cause trouble. No coherence and we are talking about interconnected strategic systems.
There's a reason why nobody in the West/Nato includes Russian and Chinese jets in their competitions. Long range air defense systems are comparable.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 22:01
by vilters
F-35 obsolete in 10 years? Dream, happy dreams. :devil:

Long time ago (1979), the F-16 started out as a lightweight pure A2A aircraft. See where it is now? ?
A full grown combat machine that still can fight with everything that's out there.

Like the F-16, the F-35 will see its capabilities grow when aging, growing into a complete combat system that can lead a fight into ways we can only imagine.

As far as the S-400 goes?
Tell us my friend, we are listening, please tell us how many "real life" combat kills does it have?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 05:34
by fidgetspinner
vilters wrote:
As far as the S-400 goes?
Tell us my friend, we are listening, please tell us how many "real life" combat kills does it have?


Heard Iraq has interests purchasing them maybe after they purchase them we can test those F-35s.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 07:01
by optimist
I would start every post with the elephant in the room. Israel and secondly, Saidi. The conflict between Sunni and Shia makes the Irish conflict look like kids teasing each other.

Turks are looking at their neighbours, with US/Israel bringing liberation, peace and democracy to the region.

Why wouldn't Turkey want a system, that could target any plane entering their air space?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 11:19
by loke
polarbear wrote:I am not playing stupid or ignorant; just trying to show the truth so that someone will listen and take action before the proverbial s..t hits the fan. If not, everybody will be covered with it; it will be much more costly and difficult to clean up; and the stink of it will remain between us for a long time. Within 10 years F-35 will be another standart gadget, its utility much diminished with the development of effective countermeasures. We can do without it, we may be even better without it. And the knowledge of betrayal will remain. Let me give ou a tip what will this lead to. Why Turkey has not bought a single warship from UK for more than a century?

There is not a clause in F-35 project charter and agreement stating Turkey can not buy russian arms. If this matter is that much important; why was it not placed on charter or agreement? We would have known what we were getting into and acted accordingly. Legally speaking US is breaking the deal.

In the case of S-400, Patriots are technically useless -underranged and unreliable in terms of IFF-, horribly expensive and unavailable. We already backed off from a deal with chinese -and suffering all of economical consequences - hoping US would act responsibly; but Patriots remanied technically useless, horribly expensive and unavailable. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice ...

I will wander off the forum topic for a while but it is necessary. Speaking of disgusting matters; it is not russians who are running an armed recessionist movement within turkish border. We killed it twice and US resurrected it, not once but twice. One can not be any more hostile, short of a coup d'état or openly declaring war. And again it was not russians who did not disappoint us on that front and attempted a coup, using a mad imam as catpaw. The guy unabashedly wrote " While we seek to maintain our valued relationship ", as if anything left. Wolters, by the virtue of not being a slimy diplomat or politician, is much more honest and realistic; he knows Turkish - US relations can not go on like that anymore; he can not voice an opposing view aloud, so he "suspect" not "expect". What we expect from US from now on are limited scale armed clashes directly or through catpaws, and considering US armed forces tendency to fire without warning from behind; we wish to be prepared for the incident. S-400 is one of the precautions and will be delivered as soon as possible.


Image

Image

These will not happen again.

You should read up on the F-35 -- it is so far and above anything else out there (with the exception of the F-22) that even without upgrades nothing would come close the next 15 possibly 20 years. However there will be upgrades and with those nothing will come close until Europe gets its act together with their own stealth a/c, probably 30 years from now.

So the main issue with the Patriot seems to be that you want to be able to shoot down friendlies, with no IFF protocols coming in the way?

And you expect the US to start a proxy war against NATO ally Turkey?

Polarbear, you definitely sound like a Russian troll right now.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 14:01
by mixelflick
He does sound like a troll...

But I have to say, the whole SU-57 for Turkey thing has me worried. Coupled with Russia's plan to build 76 (and I believe Putin is hell bent on realizing that), export SU-57's for much more $ are a distinct possibility. For China, Turkey and perhaps even the UAE and now again... talk of India buying them.

Just a year ago, such talk seemed absolute nonsense. With 3 and perhaps more export possibilities, they have what they really need - other countries to fund its ongoing development. It would seem giving foreign countries like Turkey, India etc the business over the S-400.... not such a smart move. It'd be one thing if Patriot or THAAD was comparable. If we're being honest though, it really isn't. And if they've built a better mouse trap, why shouldn't they be able to sell it?

If for example we had SAM systems as robust and capable, that's what I'd want for American arms exports...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 14:29
by loke
You are wrong about the Patriot; the early versions were not great but the latest iteration look pretty solid.

According to Polarbear the real issue is that they do not get access to configure the system as they would like -- for instance they would like the option to change the IFF protocols so that Greek or Israeli (or even US) a/c are recognized as Foe not Friendly.

I agree that it is a potential issue that Russia will be strengthened by this. Unfortunately. But it seems Erdogan is very determined to walk this road. Hopefully somebody more sensible will follow him, and hopefully it will be possible to revert this currently very negative development in Turkey.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 18:26
by loke
June 09 2019 16:41:01

Turkish officials have told daily Hürriyet that there was no change regarding Turkey’s stance on an S-400 missile defense deal with Russia.

Their comments were in response to a question about the U.S. acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan’s letter to Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar that laid out the steps to remove Turkey from the F-35 training program.

The anonymous sources noted that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s has already said that the purchase from Moscow was a “done deal” and “there is no backtracking from that.”

This is not going to end well.
The same sources said that “some of the U.S. institutions do not want to take into consideration” the issues that Erdoğan and his U.S. counterpart Donald Trump had previously mutually agreed on. They also said that Turkey’s suggestion of establishing a joint commission with the United States to examine the S-400 issue was “still on the table.”

LOL! Either they are lying, or they are not very well informed about what has happened in the US regarding this story.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/no-cha ... als-144056

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 21:43
by SpudmanWP
loke wrote:According to Polarbear the real issue is that they do not get access to configure the system as they would like -- for instance they would like the option to change the IFF protocols so that Greek or Israeli (or even US) a/c are recognized as Foe not Friendly.


Now we understand your confusion, you've been lied to.

Each country maintains its own Mission Data File (MDF aka "threat library") at a facility called a "reprogramming center". There are 3 centers, 1 for the US and two others split between the F-35 Partner and FMS users. While the centers are located in the US (since it has access to the deepest, darkest secrets of the F-35), Turkish personnel do the programming and they determine what is and is not a threat.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 22:22
by magitsu
Reprogramming Center – East (RC-East) Eglin AFB

Contains these labs:
ACURL (Australia, Canada, UK)
NIRL (Norway, Italy)
USRL (US, run by the 513th EWS)

***
Reprogramming Center – West (RC-West) NAS Point Mugu

Contains:
FRL (Japan and Israel were the first customers)

http://wp.studeri.org/2015/04/eglin-get ... f-35-labs/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 23:35
by madrat
Is it true they canceled classes for the current Turkish maintainers?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 00:01
by SpudmanWP
Not yet

The Defense Department will remove all Turkish personnel from the F-35 Joint Program Office no later than July 31. "At this point, all Invitational Travel Orders (ITOs) and/or Common Access Cards (CACs) will be canceled, and Turkish Air Force personnel will be prohibited from entering JPO facilities," the letter states.

...

Two Turkish instructor pilots have completed training, with four students currently in training, Maj. Rebecca Heyse, 56th Fighter Wing spokeswoman, told Military.com on Friday.

There are now a total of 42 students -- pilots and maintainers -- attending F-35 training in the U.S. at Luke and at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, according to the Pentagon.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 01:09
by spazsinbad
magitsu wrote:Reprogramming Center – East (RC-East) Eglin AFB
Contains these labs:
ACURL (Australia, Canada, UK)
NIRL (Norway, Italy)
USRL (US, run by the 513th EWS)
***
Reprogramming Center – West (RC-West) NAS Point Mugu
Contains:
FRL (Japan and Israel were the first customers)
http://wp.studeri.org/2015/04/eglin-get ... f-35-labs/

Go here in this thread for the TURKEY (which needs SERIOUS REPROGRAMMING!) viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53202&p=419352&hilit=reprogram%2A+Turkey#p419352

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 06:13
by spazsinbad
Turkey considers Russian Su-57, Chinese J-31 jets to replace F-35s - Yeni Şafak
09 Jun 2019 Yeni Şafak
:devil: "...“Ankara already thinks [whoda thunk a city could thunk?] that even if F-35s are delivered, they will create serious security risks for Turkey as they are directly commanded by the United States [KILL SWITCH! UhOH!]. Therefore, nobody regrets ‘losing’ F-35s,” the daily said...." :doh: [those turkeys are tuff brudda]

Source: https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/turkey- ... yeni-safak OR http://ahval.co/en-49790

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 11:34
by falcon.16
Image

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 13:42
by mixelflick
loke wrote:You are wrong about the Patriot; the early versions were not great but the latest iteration look pretty solid.

According to Polarbear the real issue is that they do not get access to configure the system as they would like -- for instance they would like the option to change the IFF protocols so that Greek or Israeli (or even US) a/c are recognized as Foe not Friendly.

I agree that it is a potential issue that Russia will be strengthened by this. Unfortunately. But it seems Erdogan is very determined to walk this road. Hopefully somebody more sensible will follow him, and hopefully it will be possible to revert this currently very negative development in Turkey.


"Pretty solid" though still isn't close to the S-400

PATRIOT
(WIKIPEDIA)

Operational
range
PAC-1: 70 km[17]
PAC-2: 96 km[18]-160 km[17][19]
PAC-3: 20 km against ballistic missile[20]
PAC-3 MSE: 35 km against ballistic missile[21]
Flight altitude 79,500 feet (24,200 m)
Speed PAC-1: Mach 2.8[22]
PAC-2/PAC-3: Mach 4.1[23]

S-400
(Wikipedia)

Operational
range
380 km (40N6E missile)
250 km (48N6 missile)

120 km (9M96E2 missile)
40 km (9M96E missile)

And at least one of these missiles travels at hypersonic speeds.

I realize wikipedia isn't always accurate, but in no instance can I find Patriot's missiles traveling anywhere near the velocity of the S-400's, nor can I find it even approaching the S-400's maximum range. Let me put it this way: If I'm a pilot flying an F-15 I would much rather try and defeat the Patriot, as the S-400 has so many ways to kill me faster and farther out. And by no small measure.

So I'll concede the Patriot is a good missile/SAM system. But let's not kid ourselves.. the S-400 is far more capable. And if it weren't, the USAF would be just fine with continuing to send F-16CJ's etc against it. Just another SAM system, right? Nope. Instead, we're building the F-35. A trillion dollar weapons system and the crux of US and allied air power for the next 50 years... with the express purpose of defeating it.

You don't see Russia building a comparable aircraft because it feels US air defenses are so fearsome, they need to do something about it. We are, and the S-400/500 is the reason...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 14:46
by vilters
And Turkistan is going to use these against who or what? :devil:
To my knowledge the Kurds have no Air Force. :bang:

PS, and if the numbers I see here above are as accurate as their F-57 numbers, nobody has anything to fear either.

And if anything would ever happen?
A Tomahawk here, a Tomahawk there, and all is well.
All of Turkistan is available for a "lost" Submarine.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 19:49
by loke
Turkey has expressed fury at the way its national footballers were treated at Iceland's Reykjavik airport.
In a tweet, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu called the team's treatment "unacceptable in terms of diplomatic and humanitarian practice" and said Turkey would "do what is necessary".

As journalists surrounded some players on arrival a dish-scouring brush could be seen among the microphones.
Players also endured a lengthy customs search, Turkish media reported.

According to Turkish broadcaster NTV, Turkey has delivered a diplomatic protest to Iceland.
Iceland's ministry of foreign affairs said that a request for "fast-track security" from the Turkish embassy was sent only hours before the team's arrival, and so was never processed.

But in any event, "such privilege is usually only accorded to senior government officials", it said.

Since Turkey is not in the European Union or Schengen zone, which has common security rules with Iceland, standard procedures applied - which for the entire Turkish team and staff took one hour and 23 minutes, the ministry said.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48580770

LOL!!! The turks are really becoming drama queens..! diplomatic protest because their soccer team did not get "fast-track security"???

More on this very serious diplomatic incident between two NATO allies:

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan held a phone call with Nihat Özdemir, the head of Turkish Football Federation (TFF), regarding the incident and said that necessary precautions are being taken by the state.


“The authorities are responsible for this inhumane and diplomatically unacceptable behavior. What was done to our national team was a kind of violence. Iceland’s authorities should apologize for this ‘primitive’ practice and take steps to compensate for this mistake,” he added.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... ort-144061

This is just incredible -- whereas Erdogan and his cronies have put thousands of people in prison, including many foreigners from other NATO countriesand kept them for a long time with no evidence of wrongdoing, they start talking about "inhumane" and "diplomatically unacceptable behavior" because their soccer team is stuck in security control for 1 hour and 23 minutes???

A good thing they will not get a single F-35!!!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 19:56
by SpudmanWP
LOL...

So now a troll (Belgian tourist ) with a cellphone is a "journalist"?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 23:53
by spazsinbad
:devil: Here is our LITTLE AUSSIE BLEEDER... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cW2kSkurQFs


Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 02:15
by Corsair1963
U.S. Grounds Turkish F-35 Pilots

Pilots no longer allowed to fly or access restricted information as spat over Russian missile defense system continues.

By Lara Seligman | June 10, 2019, 6:03 PM

The U.S. military has grounded the Turkish pilots training on the F-35 fighter jet in the United States and cut off their access to the aircraft’s restricted information in anticipation of Turkey’s expulsion from the program over its plans to purchase a contentious Russian missile system.

The U.S. Defense Department last week formally gave Turkey a deadline of July 31 to scrap the deal for Russia’s S-400 missile system before cutting the NATO ally out of the F-35 program altogether. At that point, if Ankara does not change course, all Turkish Air Force personnel involved in the program must leave the United States.

But for the six Turkish pilots at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona—two instructors and four students—their access to the new American-made jet has already been cut off. Last week, Brig. Gen. Todd Canterbury, the wing commander, made the decision to immediately ground the pilots and restrict their access to the “vault,” which holds state secrets and classified materials, according to two U.S. defense officials.

Canterbury’s main concern was that continuing to allow the Turkish pilots access to the F-35’s most sensitive data—instruction manuals, for example—after the July 31 deadline was imposed would provide them an opportunity to take classified information out of the secure space, one official said.

Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. Mike Andrews confirmed that the Turkish pilots at Luke Air Force Base are no longer flying despite the July 31 deadline.

“Without a change in Turkish policy, we will continue to work closely with our Turkish ally on winding down their participation in the F-35 program,” he said.

The grounding was billed as an “operational pause” so that if Turkey decides to scrap the S-400 at the last minute, the pilots could resume their training.

But that outcome does not look likely. The grounding is the latest sign of increasingly strained ties between Washington and Ankara amid ongoing tension over U.S. support for the Kurds in the fight in Syria and Turkey’s growing friendship with Russia. The U.S. government has signaled the spat over the S-400 could lead to sanctions, which experts say would have a dire effect on Turkey’s already fragile economy and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s popularity as he faces the prospect of his party losing the Istanbul mayoral election for a second time in a rerun later this month.

U.S. officials say the S-400, which is slated to arrive in the country as soon as this month, poses a threat to the F-35 itself, and the integration of the two systems could provide Moscow insight into closely guarded U.S. military secrets.

The decision to begin “unwinding” Turkey from the F-35 program was prompted in part by the discovery that Turkey had sent personnel to Russia to begin training on the S-400, said Andrew Winternitz, acting deputy assistant secretary of defense for Europe and NATO.

The Pentagon is in discussions with Turkey’s defense ministry over reimbursing Ankara for the cost of the aircraft it has already bought, said Ellen Lord, the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment.

Defense Department officials stressed that they want to keep the F-35 versus S-400 dispute separate from broader cooperation on a range of issues with a key NATO ally. Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base is a critical launching point for the U.S.-led campaign against terrorism in the Middle East, and it’s home to U.S. nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, Turkey is also NATO’s southern flank against a threat from Russia.

However, experts note that Erdogan’s move to acquire the S-400 despite such strong opposition from Washington may signal the country’s broader pivot away from the trans-Atlantic alliance—toward Moscow.

“This sets Turkey on a dangerous trajectory, and it will make the Turkish military more prone to Russian meddling,” said Aykan Erdemir, a former member of the Turkish parliament and a senior fellow with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/06/10/fi ... 35-pilots/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 18:49
by mixelflick
vilters wrote:And Turkistan is going to use these against who or what? :devil:
To my knowledge the Kurds have no Air Force. :bang:

PS, and if the numbers I see here above are as accurate as their F-57 numbers, nobody has anything to fear either.

And if anything would ever happen?
A Tomahawk here, a Tomahawk there, and all is well.
All of Turkistan is available for a "lost" Submarine.


F-57?

Did you mean SU-57??

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 19:16
by sunstersun
kick turkey out and put Poland/India on an accelerated schedule :P

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:06
by Tiger05
sunstersun wrote:kick turkey out and put Poland/India on an accelerated schedule :P


Also get Greece on board to add insult to injury. :twisted:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:12
by SpudmanWP
Donate the Turkish F-35s to Kurdistan :roll:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:22
by pron
Tiger05 wrote:
sunstersun wrote:kick turkey out and put Poland/India on an accelerated schedule :P


Also get Greece on board to add insult to injury. :twisted:


Sure, some hope for this....
Greece Mulls Purchase of F-35 Fighter Jets from the US.
https://greece.greekreporter.com/2019/0 ... om-the-us/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:46
by Tiger05
It would be deliciously ironic if Greece ended up getting F-35s but not Turkey. Things were not looking good for Greek air power not too long ago which was being left in the dust by the Turkish AF's rapid modernization. Now the air power balance between Greece and Turkey may very well shift in Greece's favour if the HAF gets the F-35. Two squadrons of F-35s alongside 85 F-16Vs and about 100 older legacy F-16C/Ds and Mirage 2000-5s would be a force to be reckoned with.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 21:33
by loke
CNN)The US Air Force has pulled 26 Turkish military personnel from its F-35 fighter jet training program due to "safety" concerns stemming from the ongoing dispute over Turkey's push to buy both American stealth aircraft and a Russian missile defense system, according to a defense official directly familiar with the matter.


The safety concern is being explained as the same procedure used to temporarily ground US military pilots if they are facing a "significant life event," such as a divorce or death in the family, that would be a distraction during flight operations, the official told CNN.


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/11/poli ... index.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 21:46
by spazsinbad
Here’s why training for Turkish F-35 maintainers will proceed despite pause for Turkey’s student pilots
11 Jun 2019 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — Training for Turkish F-35 pilots has stopped as the Pentagon prepares to expel Turkey from the joint strike fighter program, but Turkish students learning to maintain the F-35 at Eglin Air Force base will be able to complete their training, a base spokeswoman has confirmed....

...The initial plan, laid out by acting Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan, would have allowed Turkish F-35 pilots to continue training at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., as long as they left the country by July 31. However, Brig. Gen. Todd Canterbury, commander of the base’s 56th Wing, opted to pause training for Turkish pilots due to concerns about their access to sensitive information, according to Foreign Policy, which was the first to report the information.

Those same concerns do not exist at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., which is responsible for the initial training of foreign F-35 maintainers, because foreign maintainers do not have access to classified data.

“The 33rd Fighter Wing is complying with the Secretary of Defense's memo of having all Turkish training completed by July 31st,” said Lt. Savannah Stephens, chief of public affairs for Eglin’s 33rd Fighter Wing. “We have no concerns about the current students finishing their training as everything they do here is on an FOUO [for official use only] or unclassified level and they only work with training devices.”

All current jet mechanic students are scheduled to graduate on July 24 and 27, and the Turkish leadership team will leave on July 29, Stephens said. There are currently 42 Turkish pilots and maintainers training at Luke and Eglin. The July 31 deadline would allow 28 of them to complete their training, but the remainder would be sent home before their training naturally concluded, according to information attached to Shanahan’s letter...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... nt-pilots/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 04:41
by optimist
They have a couple of instructor pilots. So they know the what, up to today.. They also have all the partner info, which I think would exceed the pilot's knowledge.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 15:55
by spazsinbad
Lockheed Exec: With Time, Turkish F-35 Ouster Won’t Hurt
13 Jun 2019 John A. Tirpak

"Lockheed Martin is continuously assessing its F-35 supply chain and eyeing potential alternate vendors, for just such a case as Turkey’s expulsion from the multinational program, company executive vice president for aeronautics Michele Evans said on June 13. It’s likely the Turkish eviction won’t have much effect on cost or schedule of the program writ large, she said.

Evans, after a pre-Paris Air Show briefing for defense journalists, told Air Force Magazine, “with time, we can adjust” the F-35 supply chain to account for disruptions such as Turkey’s ouster. “We are always working with our vendors and suppliers, … and looking for the lowest-cost” approach to building the F-35, she said, noting there is a shop at Lockheed whose sole function is to develop production work-arounds in case of an interruption of supply. “We can’t afford to wait for things like this to happen,” she said. “We have to be ready with something else” to replace lost vendors....

...Evans insisted the issues regarding Turkey’s exit from the program are “government-to-government” and the company will do as it’s directed. She could not offer any information on what might become of tooling and other F-35 industrial equipment now in Turkey...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... -Hurt.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 06:37
by Corsair1963
Turkey's opposition strikes blow to Erdogan with Istanbul mayoral win

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkey’s opposition has dealt President Tayyip Erdogan a stinging blow by winning control of Istanbul in a re-run mayoral election, breaking his aura of invincibility and delivering a message from voters unhappy over his policies.

Ekrem Imamoglu of the Republican People’s Party (CHP) secured 54.21% of votes, according to state-owned Anadolu news agency - a far wider victory margin than his narrow win three months ago.

The previous result was annulled after protests from Erdogan’s Islamist-rooted AK Party, which said there had been widespread voting irregularities. The decision to re-run the vote was criticised by Western allies and caused uproar among domestic opponents who said Turkey’s democracy was under threat.

On Sunday, tens of thousands of Imamoglu supporters celebrated in the streets of Istanbul after the former businessman triumphed over Erdogan’s handpicked candidate by almost 800,000 votes.

“In this city today, you have fixed democracy. Thank you Istanbul,” Imamoglu told supporters who made heart signs with their hands, in an expression of the inclusive election rhetoric that has been the hallmark of his campaigning.

“We came to embrace everyone,” Imamoglu said. “We will build democracy in this city, we will build justice. In this beautiful city, I promise, we will build the future.”

The High Electoral Board has yet to announce the formal results, but Erdogan has already congratulated Imamoglu for his victory and Imamoglu’s rival, Binali Yildirim, of the ruling AK Party wished him luck as mayor barely two hours after polls closed.

WANING SUPPORT

Erdogan has ruled Turkey since 2003, first as prime minister and then as president, becoming the country’s most dominant politician since its founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, nearly a century ago.

His AK Party has strong support among pious and conservative Turks and its stewardship of Turkey’s economy through a decade and a half of construction-fuelled growth helped Erdogan win more than a dozen national and local elections.

But economic recession and a financial crisis have eroded that support, and Erdogan’s ever-tighter control over government has alarmed some voters.

Turkey’s lira tumbled after the decision to annul the March vote and is down 8% this year in part on election jitters. It firmed to 5.72 overnight from Friday’s close of 5.8140 but eased back to 5.7750 by 0500 GMT.

Imamoglu won support even in the traditionally pious Istanbul districts, once known as AK Party strongholds, ending the 25-year-long Islamist rule in the country’s largest city.

“This re-run (election) was one to put an end to the dictatorship,” said Gulcan Demirkaya, a 48-year-old housewife in Istanbul’s AKP-leaning Kagithane district. “God willing, I would like to see him as the president in five years’ time. The one-man rule should come to an end.”

The results are likely to trigger a new chapter in Turkish politics, with the country’s top three cities now held by the opposition, and could trigger cracks within Erdogan’s AK Party, while bringing the economic troubles more to the centre.

“This is definitely going to have an impact on the future of Turkish politics given the margin of victory. It’s alarming sign for the AKP establishment,” said Sinan Ulgen, visiting scholar at Carnegie Europe in Brussels and former Turkish diplomat.

Analysts say the loss could set off a Cabinet reshuffle in Ankara and adjustments to foreign policy. It could even trigger a national election earlier than 2023 as scheduled, although the leader of the AKP’s nationalist ally played down that prospect.

“Turkey should now return to its real agenda, the election process should close,” MHP party leader Devlet Bahceli said. “Talking of an early election would be among the worst things that can be done to our country.”

The uncertainty over the fate of Istanbul and potential delays in broader economic reforms have kept financial markets on edge. Threats of sanctions by the United States if Erdogan goes ahead with plans to install Russian missile defences have also weighed on the markets.

Source: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-turke ... 8?rpc=401&

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 12:16
by mixelflick
Why aren't they thinking about this logically?

Buying the S-400 only gets them a defensive weapons system. With the F-35, they're getting an offensive AND defensive weapons system, to say nothing about its ISR capabilities. Something isn't right. I know people have cited "politics" but there's something more to this that must explain it.

Saving face, the same way the F-35 got put on the back burner in Canada?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 13:13
by marsavian
They are thinking logically, S-400 protects them against Iranian/Israeli ballistic missiles as well as hopefully against Israeli F-35.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 14:31
by popcorn
marsavian wrote:... as well as hopefully against Israeli F-35.


Either they weren't paying attention when they got briefed on the F-35 or thought that they were being lied to when they were Informed the F-35 is specifically designed to counter the S-400.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 14:47
by marsavian
They consider ballistic missiles the more existential threat.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2019, 17:25
by botsing
marsavian wrote:They consider ballistic missiles the more existential threat.

Got any reliable sources for this factoid? Or is it just your personal opinion?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 01:36
by carlos_a
With all respect, I can´t understand this. Some time ago, Turkey downed a russian plane and they seemed at the edge of a confrontation. And now they are best friends? What is the logic of this?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 01:51
by operaaperta
U.S. aerospace manufacturer throws in towel on Turkey operations

U.S. aerospace manufacturer Pratt & Whitney has pulled the plug on its Turkey operations, citing problems in production quality, aviation news site Airport Haber reported on Saturday.

The decision arrives amid increasing tensions on the site of the Turkish Engine Center (TEC), it said.

[...]

Source: https://ahvalnews.com/foreign-investmen ... operations