The Turkey problem

geokav · by **geokav** » 07 Jun 2018, 20:30

SEC. 1269. REMOVAL OF TURKEY FROM THE F–35 PROGRAM.

Pages 680 - 681.
If this passes from Trump, Turkey will have an enormous problem. But after Tsavousoglou's trip to the US, Turkey announced a delay of 10 months regarding S-400 acceptance, with an excuse of "not enough training for Turkish operators..."

https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/i ... 987pcs.pdf

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 14 Jun 2018, 09:57

Despite some opposition, US on course to deliver F-35s to Turkey on June 21
13 Jun 2018 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The U.S. government is proceeding with plans to deliver the first F-35 to Turkey, with the country set to accept its first jet on June 21 despite opposition from some in Congress....

...“The aircraft will then ferry to Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, where Turkish pilots will join the F-35A training pool.”

The Senate is set to vote this week on the annual defense policy bill, which includes language that would prohibit the U.S. government from “transfer of title” to Turkey until the time that the Defense Department submits a report to Congress on removal of Turkey from the F-35 program....

...for now, it appears that the Defense Department has no plans to keep Turkey from getting its first F-35 or to put restrictions on its use at Luke AFB....

...After a meeting in Washington with U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo earlier this month, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu expressed confidence that the United States would not only deliver the first F-35 to Turkey as planned, but that it would ultimately decide to continue F-35 sales to Turkey.

“Turkey rejects threatening language from the U.S. on the issue, it is not constructive,” Çavuşoğlu said on June 4, according to a report from the Turkish newsgroup Anadolu Agency....

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-pr ... n-june-21/

mgelevli · by **mgelevli** » 14 Jun 2018, 12:20

As a Turkish citizen, I find it quite a big mistake to purchase Russian systems. It is a big waste of money. I would prefer those funds to be directed for domestic and cooperative defense projects, that would enhance our national defense capabilities, keeping up with the NATO standarts, which I consider has given the qualitative edge to our armed forces for many years.
Turkish Air Defenses have relied on fighter aircraft for many years. It is no doubt we need a layered, network centric integrated air defense system. S-400 will not give us a networked defense capability as we may not be able to use them within our air defense structure. They will be stand alone systems, which will make them vulnerable to SEAD/DEAD attacks. I would prefer a stop gap system procurement such as Patriot or EuroSAM and keep up the domestic R&D work for a long range air defense missile system just as we have done in low and medium altitude air defense missile systems ( HISAR-A and HISAR-O). In the long run, we would have domestic, indigenous missile systems that would be acceptable within the NATO defense structure and would not upset any of our allies.
In recent weeks there have been rumors of Su-57 fighters for the Turkish Air Force. This would be even a much worse situation for us. Of course, if US does indeed stop our participation in the F-35 program, and block the transfer of our F-35 jets, there may not be so much of an option for us. Never the less, the alternative of the F-35 should not be a Russian fighter. I would consider Eurofighter procurement, as this would be less traumatic for us, at least that it would not necessitate the procurement of a new set of ammunitions and may easily be integrated into our air defense network.

gideonic · by **gideonic** » 14 Jun 2018, 15:13

Well Erdogan has stepped up the rethoric:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... les-133279

Besides [the S-400s], I have made a proposal to Russia for the joint production of the S-500s,” Erdoğan said in a televised interview late June 13.
...
“Also, we will undertake in the joint production in the second and third stages [of the S-400s],” he added.

loke · by **loke** » 14 Jun 2018, 15:36

But President Tayyip Erdoğan has repeatedly said Turkey has been forced to buy Russian systems because the Americans have been declining to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/opinio ... ift-133252

What I quite don't understand is that Turkey claim that the US refused to sell Patriot to Turkey, and this forced Turkey to buy Russian SAMs.

However apart from Turkish claims I have not seen any statements from the US that they have blocked sales of Patriot to Turkey. Also it seems surprising that the US would refuse to sell Patrio to a NATO ally.

Perhaps Turkey has demanded ToT on Patriot, and perhaps this is what the US could not agree to? If this is the case, then IMHO Turkey has misrepresented the situation.

weasel1962 · by **weasel1962** » 15 Jun 2018, 01:16

It was more Raytheon was restricted from providing the Patriot technology (aka black box) transfers that Turkey wanted. Standard tech transfer concerns.

madrat · by **madrat** » 15 Jun 2018, 02:10

Greece and Syria must have world class air force threats for Turkey to need S-400.

weasel1962 · by **weasel1962** » 15 Jun 2018, 03:18

What Turkey is gunning for is not air defense per se but the long range missile technology. They tried early to burrow their way into the Arrow program but US blocked the access using MTCR as an excuse,

kostas29 · by **kostas29** » 15 Jun 2018, 03:35

madrat wrote:Greece and Syria must have world class air force threats for Turkey to need S-400.

Greece as a matter fact does have.

geokav · by **geokav** » 17 Jun 2018, 11:21

15th of June 2018
A letter of 44 members of the Congress to secretary of defense James Mattis for Turkish F-35s....

https://sarbanes.house.gov/sites/sarban ... SIGNED.pdf

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 19 Jun 2018, 03:27

Trump Administration Warns Friends Against Russia Arms Deals
18 Jun 2018 Paul McLeary

"As some Gulf and Asian allies consider big purchases of Russia arms, the Senate is set to uphold a law signed by Trump that would slap sanctions on them for cozying up with Moscow....

...Schenker’s [Trump administration nominee] comments came just days before Turkey is slated to receive its first F-35 aircraft in a ceremony at a Lockheed Martin facility in Texas, a deal which has been put in some jeopardy by the looming S-400 purchase. Both U.S. and NATO officials have criticized the move, saying that placing a Russian air defense system in a NATO country would not only give the Russian military a foothold inside NATO, but complicate the alliance’s larger air defense architecture.

Another provision in the 2016 NDAA being voted on Monday would ban the sale of the 100 F-35’s that Ankara is planning to purchase, citing the S-400 purchase.

Earlier this year, Gen. Petr Pavel, chairman of the NATO Military Committee, told me that the system itself is less an issue than is its database. “The database will be collected on the territory of a NATO ally, with all allied assets present in Turkey” being mapped and logged into Russian systems, he said. Russian personnel will be on the ground to instruct the Turkish military how to operate the complicated radars and fire control systems, handing Moscow critical intelligence on what NATO assets are in the country, where they are, and what kind of capabilities they may have.

Rarely one to back down, Turkey’s increasingly authoritarian President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has suggested in recent days he might be interested in buying the Russian’s even more advanced S-500 system."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/06/tru ... rms-deals/

vilters · by **vilters** » 19 Jun 2018, 13:30

I live in Belgium-Europe and UNFORTUNATELY we have the Turkish National TV on our TV Cable network. A disgrace to all.

I write "Unfortunately", because you can turn the TV on at ANY time of the day, it is Erdolan again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

They have only a single artist, a single reporter, a single singer, a single show :
The ERDOLAN Show, form morning, till evening, and if you missed something, look at night.

The state controlled Turk National TV is a MASTER in the game of brain washing its population.

Come to think of it. He must be close friends with that other dictator wannabe clown from North Korea.
They also SHOUT the news to their listeners over there. LOL.

sferrin · by **sferrin** » 19 Jun 2018, 14:12

Turkish PM Says US Bill Blocking F-35 Sales ‘Unfortunate’

"The U.S. Senate's decision to pass a bill prohibiting the sale of Lockheed Martin's F-35 jets to Turkey is unfortunate and against the spirit of strategic partnership, Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım said on Tuesday.

“The decision is unfortunate, but Turkey is not without alternatives. It is regrettable that the U.S. Senate has made such a move, which is against the spirit of strategic partnership,” he said.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said on Tuesday that the first F-35 jet would be delivered to Turkey on Thursday. “The rollout ceremony for Turkey’s first F-35 aircraft will be held on June 21,” Çavuşoğlu said. "

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... f_35s.html

They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.

geforcerfx · by **geforcerfx** » 19 Jun 2018, 15:30

sferrin wrote: They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.

Why? It's a training jet at Luke isn't it? doesn't go anywhere doesn't fly unless we let it.

marsavian · by **marsavian** » 19 Jun 2018, 22:33

The Turkish F-35s were not meant to fly to Turkey for another two years anyway, enough time to resolve this matter one way or the other. 85 Senators is a veto proof majority and I can't see Trump going to bat for Erdogan over this. This is really a done deal unless President Ottoman Slap changes course and drops the aggressive rhetoric as well as the S-400s. At this rate I can't see even an AESA upgrade for their F-16s being sanctioned. The Sultan will drop the S-400 within those two years as he will appreciate the offense that F-35 gives him more than the defense that S-400 will. The rest is just bluster before this eventuality.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/opinio ... key-133017

The Turkish government has not decided the level of representation in that ceremony. Ankara is probably waiting to see who will be present from the U.S. side. When their first F-35 was delivered two months ago the defense minister of South Korea was there, as well as one senator and one congressman from Texas. It is not difficult to imagine that Turkey’s ceremony at Fort Worth will not be a real party like the Koreans had. There will certainly be representatives from the Pentagon and the U.S. Air Force. But the idea that some members of the U.S. Congress will happily pose with Turkish officials in front of that F-35 seems like a pipe dream.

It seems that the F-35 will be delivered to the Turkish side but it will not fly to Turkey for almost two years, while Turkish pilots are trained with it on American soil. The Trump administration will use this to defend itself against Congress, arguing that the F-35 project will not be compromised until that plane lands in Turkey while hoping in the meantime that Ankara will drop its commitment about the purchase of S-400s from Russia.