The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 00:26
by white_lightning35
One thing that is worrying to me is that with all the things that are going on in Turkey they are still getting f-35's. The way I see it, the minute erdogan gets his paws on one is the minute Putin and Xi do, too. :shock: Surely our leaders must be thinking the same thing, but what can be done, or more realistically, what will be done?

I understand that much of the f-35 is software driven, but there are other things that are not, like engines and RAM. I'm no expert on this, but can't the baddies glean some stuff by scraping up some RAM and reverse-engineering the engines?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 01:40
by blindpilot
white_lightning35 wrote:One thing that is worrying to me is that with all the things that are going on in Turkey they are still getting f-35's. The way I see it, the minute erdogan gets his paws on one is the minute Putin and Xi do, too. :shock: Surely our leaders must be thinking the same thing, but what can be done, or more realistically, what will be done?

I understand that much of the f-35 is software driven, but there are other things that are not, like engines and RAM. I'm no expert on this, but can't the baddies glean some stuff by scraping up some RAM and reverse-engineering the engines?


While this is true and the concern is not zero ...
Russians have been reverse engineering engines since ... well since their first jet engine picking up metal flakes in the soles of their shoes in Britain. Ideas on RAM approaches theoretically have publicly been cussed and discussed ad nauseam.

The difficulty, and it isn't cheap even if you get it right is the material sciences, and especially the manufacturing and construction to tight tolerance. The Turks do not have access to those to the best of my knowledge. As discussed here somewhere, even when the Chinese do a "cookie cutter" copy as in the J-31, they screw up some of the very things that might be in the secret sauce to their detriment, (see post nozzle horizontal tail layouts)... because they can't make a single engine that powerful, even using the metal in their shoe soles.

Let's hope LM, P&W, and key suppliers are protecting their "key" trade secrets better than some have in the past. If nothing else to keep them away from Boeing and GE.

I actually think the F-35 might temper Turkey some, since they may have a nagging wonder/doubt as to if the US has a secret cut-off switch in ALIS. Even if they don't, .. Turkey has to think about it before they dump NATO et al ...

MHO,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 01:52
by white_lightning35
Thank you for the informed response, my good sir. Being just a high school student and not having much (actually any) real world experience with this type of thing, I greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge you and others on this forum freely share, for it allows me to gain valuable insight into these sorts of things to gain a head start for going into these fields.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 02:27
by popcorn
I wish there was an internet back in my HS days... :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 02:43
by spazsinbad
:devil: I wish: I was just leaving RAAF Flying School 8) to join the RAN FAA at NAS Nowra with :mrgreen: F-35Bs on LHDs - I wish. :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:12
by white_lightning35
popcorn wrote:I wish there was an internet back in my HS days... :mrgreen:



8) Yeah, I suppose we're a bit spoiled nowadays. I have access to almost the entirety of knowledge of mankind in my phone and I instead use it to watch cat videos and get into political arguments...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:25
by blindpilot
white_lightning35 wrote:Thank you for the informed response, my good sir. Being just a high school student and not having much (actually any) real world experience with this type of thing, I greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge you and others on this forum freely share, for it allows me to gain valuable insight into these sorts of things to gain a head start for going into these fields.


Good to see you here. Did you read Gen Davis' parting comment? "It's a Great time to be a Marine!" I think many of us are envious of being where you are.
Meanwhile,
blindpilot wrote:...even when the Chinese do a "cookie cutter" copy as in the J-31, they screw up some of the very things that might be in the secret sauce to their detriment,...


As seen by the long development time of the F-22 and F-35, aircraft design (especially 5th gen) is a mountain of billions and billions of details, worked in a maze of interdependent pieces. It is literally, (and as seen in some accident investigations, actually) sometimes just a new tech design of a single bolt that makes a domino fall of features possible. If you don't get the bolt right, you don't get the features.

You can't run 5th gen fighter jets on a copy machine/3 D printer and get the same result. Maybe some day, but not today. You have to dig up a couple hundred billion dollars just to get to play in the game. And that's with no guarantee you'll get what you paid for. Turkey nor Russia have the couple hundred $B to spare. China does, but they have an entire infrastructure (including High School curriculum, to have graduates to send to engineering school to learn how they did it in the '70s) to flesh out, and mature. They are still buying jet engines from Russia. And they will, until the new engineers have gotten 20 years experience in state of the art. There is no YouTube video for this.(yet)

FWIW,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 03:53
by white_lightning35
I am lucky to have so many interesting options these days... But on another note, what changed between the non-exportable f-22 and the f-35? Did Congress learn what I learned in this thread?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 04:01
by spazsinbad
Probably search the F-35 section of the forum for TAMPER would get some results. Otherwise the F-35 has been designed from the getgo to be exportable - the F-22 was not thusly designed. The F-35 has a shedload of tamper proof technology to keep it safe from the untoward. Exactly what that means is not my privilege to know-sorry-next life as indicated above.

USEful example from 2010: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=14113&p=177011&hilit=tamper#p177011

WHICH'll bring you to: Mission To Keep the Secrets May 1, 2010 John Keller
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... p_the.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 04:03
by popcorn
There's a F-22 sub-forum for everything Raptor. The "search" function will serve you well.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 04:22
by durahawk
blindpilot wrote:I actually think the F-35 might temper Turkey some, since they may have a nagging wonder/doubt as to if the US has a secret cut-off switch in ALIS.


Wishful thinking, I am afraid. The reality is that they are using their American built F-16's now to bomb the same Kurds we are supporting in our fight against ISIS. I think if you expect them to utilize the F-35 to support soley NATO/Western/American interests you will be greatly disappointed.

Through the coup and subsequent crackdown, it is quite evident that Turkey is careening towards a dictatorship with Erdoğan at the helm. Last month his cronies even had the audacity to beat peaceful protesters on American soil and then demanded an apology from the US Goverment that our police stopped them during the act. So their Government that makes a mockery of laws and democratic values, yet we are trusting them with our most sensitive military technology?

We need only look to the Iranian Tomcats still flying around for outcomes of exporting high performance equipment to unstable governments. Turkey's membership in NATO should not blind us from this reality.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 09:10
by mtrman
@durehawk

I really don't like to deal with politics. But when somebody has wrong information about my country, or when he/she tries to misinform the others, then...
Yes, Turkey seems to be changed in some terms, but, unfortunately, this is mostly due to the fact that, our region is changing/being devastated horribly... How can you talk about Turkey, without talking about Iraq, Syria, Russia,... For the last 15 years, we are the indirect victim of all these horrible events in our region. And what about our Allies(!). They don't help us even struggling the coup attempters...

And what about Kurds? First of all, US is allying with Marxist/Leninist Terrorist YPG/PKK, not the Kurds. If you want to talk about Kurds, then go to the Northern Iraq, or SE Turkey. But don't use the word Kurds to refer to this terrorist YPG/PKK simply because they are composed of Kurds.

Some links about YPG/PKK:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20971100
http://aa.com.tr/uploads/TempUserFiles/ ... xtensi.pdf
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/me ... connection

Unfortunately, Turkey is not very good at telling and spreading the truths about herself. But if you really want to learn about what is happening in this region, then you can start by not believing everything you see on CNN, Fox, RT, etc, etc....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 09:41
by kimjongnumbaun
Reverse engineering is easier said than done. The Russians did rebuild some of our tech, but that was when it was less sophisticated. They still haven't managed to build a jet engine that has the same reliability or life expectancy comparable to ours. They can have the schematics, but they do not have the metallurgy techniques to create comparable materials. Knowing the answer to a question doesn't mean you know the formula on how to get it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 14:19
by steve2267
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Reverse engineering is easier said than done. The Russians did rebuild some of our tech, but that was when it was less sophisticated. They still haven't managed to build a jet engine that has the same reliability or life expectancy comparable to ours. They can have the schematics, but they do not have the metallurgy techniques to create comparable materials. Knowing the answer to a question doesn't mean you know the formula on how to get it.


As an observation, isn't it odd that the Russians cannot reverse engineer US gas turbines, purportedly for metallurgy shortcomings, when they performed "magic" with their rocket engines vis-a-vis the RD-170 / RD-180 family of oxygen-rich, staged-combustion rocket engines. In the 1990s, US engineers reportedly did not believe it was possible to accomplish what the Russians had with oxygen-rich staged combustion rockets, and then they were shown the RD-170/180 family.

Just because you may have specialty expertise in one realm of material sciences, doesn't translate to other areas.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 15:17
by zhangmdev
Engineering development has lineage. US rocket engine traditionally use fuel-rich configuration, switching to oxygen-rich would be very difficult.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 15:23
by XanderCrews
durahawk wrote:
blindpilot wrote:I actually think the F-35 might temper Turkey some, since they may have a nagging wonder/doubt as to if the US has a secret cut-off switch in ALIS.


Wishful thinking, I am afraid. The reality is that they are using their American built F-16's now to bomb the same Kurds we are supporting in our fight against ISIS. I think if you expect them to utilize the F-35 to support soley NATO/Western/American interests you will be greatly disappointed.

Through the coup and subsequent crackdown, it is quite evident that Turkey is careening towards a dictatorship with Erdoğan at the helm. Last month his cronies even had the audacity to beat peaceful protesters on American soil and then demanded an apology from the US Goverment that our police stopped them during the act. So their Government that makes a mockery of laws and democratic values, yet we are trusting them with our most sensitive military technology?

We need only look to the Iranian Tomcats still flying around for outcomes of exporting high performance equipment to unstable governments. Turkey's membership in NATO should not blind us from this reality.



Not to be cynical, but you think we only sell to nations that hold democracy as the highest virtue? We sell to dictatorships routinely. Betrayal is actually relatively rare. I love Israel but they've had no problem selling secrets to China.

So how do we reconcile these contradictions? And who would have thought our no holds barred withdrawal from the middle East could have resulted in a power vacuum? Who saw that coming? (Everyone)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 19:34
by durahawk
mtrman wrote:@durehawk

I really don't like to deal with politics. But when somebody has wrong information about my country, or when he/she tries to misinform the others, then...
Yes, Turkey seems to be changed in some terms, but, unfortunately, this is mostly due to the fact that, our region is changing/being devastated horribly... How can you talk about Turkey, without talking about Iraq, Syria, Russia,... For the last 15 years, we are the indirect victim of all these horrible events in our region. And what about our Allies(!). They don't help us even struggling the coup attempters...

And what about Kurds? First of all, US is allying with Marxist/Leninist Terrorist YPG/PKK, not the Kurds. If you want to talk about Kurds, then go to the Northern Iraq, or SE Turkey. But don't use the word Kurds to refer to this terrorist YPG/PKK simply because they are composed of Kurds.

Some links about YPG/PKK:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20971100
http://aa.com.tr/uploads/TempUserFiles/ ... xtensi.pdf
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/me ... connection

Unfortunately, Turkey is not very good at telling and spreading the truths about herself. But if you really want to learn about what is happening in this region, then you can start by not believing everything you see on CNN, Fox, RT, etc, etc....


I certainly recognize that not all in Turkey are 100% behind what their Government is becoming (same can be said of the US), so my criticism remains focused on the Erdoğan Government and not Turkey or the Turkish people as a whole. The misguided and botched 2003 invasion of Iraq and subsequent premature withdrawal have certainly helped to create the current mess in Iraq and Syria which the US owns some reasonability for.

Thank you for providing resources on the Kurdish forces, I am aware of the main factions at play Iraqi Peshmerga (good guys), PKK (recognized by US as terrorists), and the Syrian YPG (Somewhere in between). The Turkish Air Force has bombed all three in Syria, but later issued an apology for bombing the Peshmerga, which evidently was accidental. We can really go on ad nauseam about the links and differences between PKK and YPG, but suffice it to say the US Government sees a distinction between the two and the Turkish government does not. That's a pretty large foreign policy difference in terms of the fight against ISIS. The YPG have proven themselves to be effective fighters against Daesh, so I guess who is the greater evil is more of a matter of perception.

Simply stated, I personally think there are is more potential for negative outcomes of selling the F-35 to the unstable and autocratic Erdoğan Government than positive ones at his point. Sure the F-35 price might increase a bit for everyone else, but I think that is a small price to pay for not having the worlds premier combat aircraft falling into the hands of a dictatorship.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 19:51
by durahawk
XanderCrews wrote:Not to be cynical, but you think we only sell to nations that hold democracy as the highest virtue? We sell to dictatorships routinely. Betrayal is actually relatively rare. I love Israel but they've had no problem selling secrets to China.

So how do we reconcile these contradictions? And who would have thought our no holds barred withdrawal from the middle East could have resulted in a power vacuum? Who saw that coming? (Everyone)


I don't disagree, but just because we have sold military gear to some not-so-great dudes to further diplomatic objectives (and continue to do so) doesn't mean that we ought not learn from the instances where it has bit us in the past. The F-35 is also not your average piece of kit, and should not be treated in the same vain as a Stinger missile or an F-5.

Regarding the Isreali's, I have little doubt that Isreal, Japan, and South Korea will all attempt to reverse engineer the F-35 to some degree. Japan and South Korea have 5th Gen programs of there own, and will likely try to leverage whatever they can to further those domestic projects. The distinction is that those countries have stable Government's that aren't openly undermining the US.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2017, 00:11
by XanderCrews
durahawk wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:Not to be cynical, but you think we only sell to nations that hold democracy as the highest virtue? We sell to dictatorships routinely. Betrayal is actually relatively rare. I love Israel but they've had no problem selling secrets to China.

So how do we reconcile these contradictions? And who would have thought our no holds barred withdrawal from the middle East could have resulted in a power vacuum? Who saw that coming? (Everyone)


I don't disagree, but just because we have sold military gear to some not-so-great dudes to further diplomatic objectives (and continue to do so) doesn't mean that we ought not learn from the instances where it has bit us in the past. The F-35 is also not your average piece of kit, and should not be treated in the same vain as a Stinger missile or an F-5.

Regarding the Isreali's, I have little doubt that Isreal, Japan, and South Korea will all attempt to reverse engineer the F-35 to some degree. Japan and South Korea have 5th Gen programs of there own, and will likely try to leverage whatever they can to further those domestic projects. The distinction is that those countries have stable Government's that aren't openly undermining the US.



Israel has previously sold military tech to China. I'm not talking reverse engineering. Google it

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 12:32
by laos
The problem with Turkey is more general. It's not restricted to F-35. They are NATO members and have access to NATO secrets both technical and operational. Their officers serve in NATO headquarters. With the purge in armed forces that is happening right now, I assume that no pro-western officer will be left serving. If Turkish government is closer to Qatar, Iran and Russia then to NATO and US then it's better for OPSEC to discontinue their membership.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 13:58
by lbk000
Not so easy, Turkey has one key feature Erdogan won't ever purge -- location. If NATO drops Turkey, the dagger pointed at Russia's stomach will suddenly turn into a sword thrust into the Mediterranean. Access to the Black Sea would disappear, the Suez would be under Turkey's shadow, and the ability of the West to assure the security of Israel and Greece (however noncontributory they may be to Western efforts) would be thrown in jeopardy. All this together would constitute a massive loss of both security and prestige -- quite frankly, a disaster, for NATO.

Like it or not, Turkey has been the key of the orient for Europe since forever, and the land is going nowhere. For now the West seems to be content with having a bad friend, because it is preferable to having a sworn enemy.

Furthermore, I believe US strategic planners are not nearly so naive to believe a monopoly could be held over stealth. It is simply a question of how much of a lead in experience the US can have, and 40 years has been plenty. With Russia and China now putting effort into stealth designs of their own, it is strategically sound for the US to proliferate stealth technology, because while it may somewhat blunt the US's advantage, it blunts Russia and China even more.

In the end, remember that the F-35 was designed to be exported from the get-go. For an innovative nation like the US, materiel technologies are relatively trivial to advance. Paying a price in technologies for a strategic feature that cannot be engineered is, while not a coup, ultimately still in the US's favor.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 19:55
by durahawk
lbk000 wrote:Like it or not, Turkey has been the key of the orient for Europe since forever, and the land is going nowhere. For now the West seems to be content with having a bad friend, because it is preferable to having a sworn enemy.


I think this is a pretty accurate assessment of the situation, but it's a fine line that is getting increasingly thinner. Turkey is the party dictating the terms.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2017, 20:41
by vilters
Wrong title :
Turkey and its population is not the problem.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 19:56
by archeman
vilters wrote:Wrong title :
Turkey and its population is not the problem.


I'm not sure that is entirely true, and I'm not sure that Problem is the right word for it. Problem for Status Quo is probably a better way to describe it.

One of the bulwark tenets of the previous Turkish governments was support for Secularist approach to it's population.
The current government could not have accomplished this takeover without a significant portion of the Population also rejecting the notion of Secularist beliefs.

There is no reason to believe that somehow magically Turkey escaped the Islamist Fundamentalist wave that moved across the Middle East.

Perhaps wise minds in the 'West' can see opportunities in this change that my humble mind cannot...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 20:08
by white_lightning35
Maybe Turkey could use a good old-fashioned coup, not a fake one like erdogan staged. :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2017, 20:52
by botsing
archeman wrote:The current government could not have accomplished this takeover without a significant portion of the Population also rejecting the notion of Secularist beliefs.

The big issue with Turkey and it's voting population is that there is is a big difference between the voting majority in the cities and those on the countryside.

The majority of the voters in the cities support secularism while the majority on the countryside rejects it. As an interesting side-note: the average person in the city has a better education than those on the countryside.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 21:32
by spazsinbad
US lawmaker wants to block F-35 sales to Turkey over embassy brawl
07 Jul 2017 Joe Gould and Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — A Democratic lawmaker from Rhode Island is seeking to block the U.S. sale of Lockheed Martin-made F-35 fighter jets to Turkey over an attack on protesters outside the Turkish ambassador’s residence in Washington two months ago. Rep. David Cicilline, a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, has proposed the ban as an amendment to the 2018 National Defense Authorization Act, which was passed by the House Armed Services Committee last month....

...The amendment highlights the complicated U.S. relationship with Turkey, a key NATO ally and home to Incirlik Air Base. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has criticized Washington over its support for Kurdish groups fighting the Islamic State that Ankara considers terrorist organizations. The Trump administration has walked a tightrope, generally praising Turkey, despite widespread criticism Turkey has become more authoritarian following a coup attempt late last year....

...Lockheed Martin was aware before the amendment was published of emerging congressional concerns about F-35 sales to Turkey and closely watching for developments. During an interview at the Paris Air Show last month, Orlando Carvalho, Lockheed’s vice president of aeronautics, told Defense News that the company will stick to the current program of record until told otherwise.

“Members obviously have the freedom to ex press [made odd spelling to stop the word from becoming a live link] the concerns that they have, but obviously, that becomes a matter that has to be addressed between Congress and the Department of Defense,” he said. “So while we’re aware of it, we’re not taking any specific action. We’re continuing to execute the program of record. And we’ll continue to do so unless we receive formal direction from our customer, from the Department of Defense and the [Joint Program Office] to do something different.”

Turkey is slated to get its first F-35s as part of the 12th lot of aircraft. Lockheed and the Defense Department hope to come to an agreement on lot 11 this year, and batches 12 through 14 are currently under negotiation as a block buy for international customers.

At the Paris Air Show, Jeff Babione, Lockheed’s F-35 program manager, noted that Turkey plays a “significant” role in the production of all F-35 aircraft. As a subcontractor to Northrop Grumman, Turkish defense companies, including its largest firm, Turkish Aerospace Industries, manufacture a large portion of the center fuselage.

Carvalho maintained that despite the political turmoil in Turkey, F-35 suppliers and related intellectual property in the country remain safe.

“To date, we haven’t seen anything that is markedly different in the places where we operate, from a security point of view, whether it’s people’s safety and security, cybersecurity, whatever, we haven’t seen anything that has been markedly different,” he said. “If the United States changes its policy with regards to Turkey, then clearly we’d have to work with our customer to then determine what actions would have to be taken in response for that.”"

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/us- ... assy-brawl

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 05:25
by spazsinbad
Just to illustrate 'not all Turks are alike politically' and they are going to protesteth muchly:

Crowds rally against Turkish government 10 Jul 2017 SKYnews
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/eu ... nment.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 05:38
by optimist
XanderCrews wrote:Israel has previously sold military tech to China. I'm not talking reverse engineering. Google it


You can put Japan on that list too. Only it was to Russia
You can put P&W selling apache engine tech to China, through Canada.
It will finish ip a long list.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 06:30
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:[...A Democratic lawmaker from Rhode Island is seeking to block the U.S. sale of Lockheed Martin-made F-35 fighter jets to Turkey ..]


.....wow, I hate agreeing with this guy, but.....don't do this on a public street, regardless....
take pictures, etc, but don't come out of the embassy and attack the aggravators/ protesters.....

...what you do in your country is mostly your business, not here! Erdogan should acknowledge and detest the attack, maybe not "accept" the protesters!....Turkey is in NATO and the mutual respect should be required, by both NATO parties!
:(

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jul 2017, 07:04
by arian
At the risk of attracting a certain character who, hopefully, has disappeared from F-16.net (he hasn't spammed in a while. Lets not jinx it)...the problems in Turkey and with Turkey have little to do with dictatorships or secularism or these things, in my opinion. These are Western issues and concepts. Democracy isn't a criteria the US has used, or should use, on whom it allies with. Most of the countries in third world or newly industrialized world were dictatorships when we allied with them, and most didn't become democracies until fairly recently in the 90s. And democracies in these countries are usually chaos, mob rule, or bipolar in nature. So I personally don't care about that. Some countries can't have democracy nor should they ever try (eg Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Libya...the usual)

Secluarism in that part of the world simply means people who live in the 21st century vs those who live in the 18th century. But secularism isn't all it's cut out to be. Secularism in the third world is usually radical leftism and populism (no, not in the sense the US media uses the term to describe Trump. I'm talking mob rule). Basically what we've seen in Egypt since their revolution, which keep in mind was mostly a secular revolution by "young facebook users". Most of them were crazy Marxists.

Mtrman says PKK/YPG are Marxist Trotsykiets etc. Yeah, so what? Pretty much every "secular" group in the ME has its roots in some form of Marxism or at least is what we in the West would call radical leftists. Same goes for much of Turkey's political movements and the "secular urban young". Remember when they were protesting over a mall that was going to be build in some park in Istanbul? Communist flags everywhere, violent leftists everywhere. What is a "modern urban secular movement" in the ME is indistinguishable from what in the West experienced with Occupy Wall Street. So they're all the same s**t as far as I'm concerned. None of them are pro-Western. None of them share the same values we do. None of them are worth our support, as far as I'm concerned.

That was the big argument for the US to support the Arab Spring in Egypt and Tunisia and elsewhere early on. No you can't just put it all on the feet of Obama. In the early days of Tahrir Square, almost all Republicans were saying why isn't Obama supporting the protesters etc. They reversed their tune pretty quickly once Mubarak was overthrown, but initially that was the argument from the US right as well. Turns out...there are no good guys in that part of the world. Secular, democracy blah blah blah. Those are empty words in this context. Saudi Arabia is a religious dictatorship...but hell, I like their government and trust their government a lot more than many others. The Shah was a dictator, and he was good too.

The problem is the people in all these ME countries. The people, whether they are religious fundamentalists, or secular modernists, are by and large pretty damn volatile, bipolar, and prone to fantasies. They can't be trusted very much with popular rule. Yes there are plenty of exceptions: in almost all those cases they are either cultural, ethnic or socio-economic minorities (like in Lebanon, where the "not so crazy" ones are both cultural minorities (the French-speakers), or religious minorities (Christians and Druze)). The reason why the...people...are a problem in most of the third world is because in the third world there is no such thing as a middle class. There's upper class elite, and those still living in the 18th century, with a small middle class of merchants. That's why there's always problems when they become more democratic: the mob is huge and very dumb, and almost instantly leads right back to dictatorships like Erdogan's

The question is: are they a reliable long-term partner of the West. The problem with Turkey is that it is not a reliable partner. It is a partner which threatens you at every turn and which hates your guts. It is a partner who's mouth is bigger than its brain.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 23:02
by spazsinbad
US official: If Turkey buys Russian systems, they can’t plug into NATO tech
16 Nov 2017 Valerie Insinna

"DUBAI, United Arab Emirates — If Turkey moves forward with its buy of a Russian air defense system, it will not be permitted to plug into NATO technology, and further action may be forthcoming that could affect the country’s acquisition or operation of the F-35, a top Air Force official said Wednesday....

...Heidi Grant, deputy undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs, was unable to say exactly what course of action the United States would pursue if Turkey purchases the S-400. “As a major NATO ally, we haven’t really looked into this yet,” she said in a Nov. 15 interview. “We’re going to have to start looking at, if they are going to go through with this, how we can be interoperable in the future. But right now, I can tell you our policies do not allow us to be interoperable with that system.”

Further complicating the issue is the planned delivery of Turkey’s first F-35s in 2018. Analysts worry that Turkey operating both the S-400 and F-35 together could compromise the jet’s security, as any data collected by the air defense system and obtained by Russia could help expose the joint strike fighter’s vulnerabilities. For a platform like the F-35, whose major strengths are its stealth and data fusion capabilities, that would be a disaster.

Grant agreed that a S-400 acquisition creates issues for Turkey’s use of the F-35. “It’s a significant concern, not only to the United States, because we need to protect this high end technology, fifth-generation technology” but for “all of our partners and allies that have already purchased the F-35,” she said. As far as potential actions the United States might take, Grant said the government will have to work through its options....

...What happens next?
Neither Grant nor Pavel have been willing to detail how the United States and NATO could respond to Turkey’s S-400 procurement, especially with regards to Turkey’s role in the F-35 program, and there’s no clear historical precedent.

Whenever the United States makes an agreement to export weapons to a foreign partner, that country is required to sign an agreement allowing the U.S. to do end-use monitoring to ensure it is not compromising sensitive technologies or information. That can include anything from a “check on how they are using the technology, who is on the same base with them [and] access that other countries may have to our high end technology,” noted Grant.

But the F-35 is not a typical program, being conceived of from the get-go as a partnership among countries that would pay to develop the jet, as well as reap the industrial benefits of building it.

Turkey is entrenched in the program on multiple levels — from the money it has spent to help design it, the more than 100 planes it plans to buy, to Turkish Aerospace Industries’ work on the center fuselage of every F-35, and the country’s role as a sustainment hub for the international joint strike fighter community. It’s not exactly clear what would happen if the United States rolls back its participation in the program.

Turkey’s industrial contributions to the F-35 are “easily replicable elsewhere” should the U.S. government decide to drop Turkey as an international partner on the program, Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst for the Teal Group, told Defense News in an interview ahead of Dubai Airshow.

“The real greater concern is just pushing a large emerging military and economic power out of NATO and into something different and not at all in Western interests,” he said. “It’s a very big deal. It’s so big that I don’t think anyone knows quite what to do with it.”

Individual members of Congress have raised concerns about the Turkish government’s recent shift from NATO, but so far have not sounded alarm bells about an S-400 acquisition. In the past, lawmakers have had difficulty implementing restrictions on the country’s acquisition of the F-35. For instance, Rep. David Cicilline, a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, tried to block sales of the F-35 to Turkey in July after Turkish security personnel attacked protesters in Washington earlier in 2017. However, the amendment ultimately died without ever getting a vote....

...“They are a sovereign nation, they can choose to go with other partners,” Grant said of the UAE’s work with Russian on a fifth-gen fighter. “But I have made it very clear that it makes it a little more difficult for our partnership as a coalition because we will not be interoperable. As of right now, our current policies are, we would not be interoperable with Russian equipment.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... nato-tech/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 03:18
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:...... further action may be forthcoming that could affect the country’s acquisition or operation of the F-35, a top Air Force official said Wednesday.......Heidi Grant, deputy undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs, was unable to say exactly what course of action the United States would pursue if Turkey purchases the S-400....


....talk is cheap, as always....but.... time is short!!

LRIP 10 is now building and delivers for "2018" (next year for you who can't count) and.....Turkey will receive 2 F-35A Block 3F before the end of the year. ...and ....and

LRIP 11 is around the corner with... 4 F-35A Block 3F followed by ....wait for it... the

MYP-1 with (yes, you guessed it) 24 more F-35A Block 3F for a grand total of 30 F-35A Block 3F by the end of 2022 (5 years)!!

The Luke AFB 63rd FS (01Aug16) will train F-35 Lightning II fighter pilots as a joint international effort between Turkey and the United States. Turkish and American pilots will fly both Turkish and American F-35s under the guidance of American instructor pilots.

....so the Turkish/ Lockheed association for the last 25ish yrs. of building and delivering 240ish F-16s (soon all to be block 50+) and SDD support for the F-35 program to the tune of $12 Billion dollars in opportunities as a 15yr. Level 3 partner is going to be more than "sorry, we aren't selling you the F-35.. nahny!..nahny!"

....regardless of personal opinion of politics, this program looks to be not only on schedule but on budget!
:)

IMHO the Turkish F-35As from LRIP11 and MYP-1 (28 a/c) will all deliver to Turkish squadrons at Turkish airbases (maybe in 3s or 4s like Norway); who and where is unknown at this time!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 14:22
by mk82
The problem goes both ways. I am sure NATO would love to take a Turkish S400 system apart.....bolt by bolt.....Mig 25 stylee. What an intelligence coup that will be! I have a funny feeling that Russia would sell Turkey a half arsed version of the S400......can’t show all your cards to your adversaries!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 16:52
by SpudmanWP
Except that while Russia sells "Monkey Models", we don't.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 03:11
by madrat
Interesting claim, but obviously untrue.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 05:00
by SpudmanWP
Which claim?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 05:06
by madrat
That the U.S. does not sell the 'monkey model' exports.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 05:45
by SpudmanWP
madrat wrote:That the U.S. does not sell the 'monkey model' exports.


Do I really have to dig up, again, multiple quotes that all F-35s are virtually identical and the only difference relates to IFF & Crypto?

Not to mention that current F-15/16 exports are better than the ones flying in the US.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 07:25
by Dragon029
While that's generally the case with aircraft, don't forget that there's things like M1A1 / M1A2s sold to partners with downgraded armour, etc.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 09:03
by SpudmanWP
The DU armor was an addon, not a downgrade.

I almost forgot, allies get AIM-120Ds, ESSMs, Mk-41s, B-61s, the Aegis system, etc.

If anything the US selling an MM would be an "exception" to the rule.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 12:17
by mas
The Turkey problem is basically Erdogan, an openly Islamic dictator with a sultan complex. The guy has no intelligence or sense worthy of the name. He tried to pick a fight with Russia using NATO as his backup but backed down once Russian sanctions started crucifying his economy. He regularly picks rude fights with the EU, Iraq, Syria, recently admonished Israel over Kurdistan, slated NATO and he's now cozying up to Iran. Basically whoever feeds his eqo is ok in his book and vice versa. He is a complete loose cannon and does the West really want to enable this loose cannon some more with some very hard to shoot down F-35s ?!

An intelligent strategic decision should be made about this especially when the majority of the Turkish population now sees the US as an enemy primarily over the support to Isis fighting Kurds.

http://m.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkish- ... ll-2659856

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 12:48
by optimist
mother hen doesn't like it, when a chick goes off and gets another worm. The shoot don't shoot software is strong in this one, usa sets the targets. as to the Russians and china crawling all over it. turkey will have to get behind Israel and japan.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 14:44
by mtrman
Well, there are some people (such as mas) in this thread who jumps to the opportunity of attacking Islam and Turks by using the Erdogan.

1) He is a politician who is elected democratically. If you really wonder why he was elected, then you should study a bit about modern Turkish history and how the muslims were suppressed for many years.

2) Before speaking about Erdogan's actions and preferrences, you should learn about the following items, which are the driving reasons of today's situation:
- Who is directly, mentally and pysically carried out the coup attempt last year? (Gulen organisation)
- Who is Gulen and when and how his enormiously big (economically and politically) structure established. (almost 40 years ago, directly established/supported by USA/CIA (search about Kasım Gülek and Fethullah Gülen))
- What is the purpose of this establishment? (a global and long term project of CIA which aim to gain political and military strength in muslim countries, and also to change islam religion for the benefit of the western world)
- How USA and Germany are still clearly protecting Gulen and his group.
- Who is pure marxist/communist/terrorist Abdullah Ocalan, PKK and PYD.
- Are USA and Germany clearly and shamelessly support PKK/PYD? (Unfortunately yes)
- Who is the gangster Daesh (ISIS)? Who established them? How the Daesh saved the Assad?
- How the anti-muslim, anti-arab, anti-turkish PKK/PYD state is being tried to be established in the northern Syria (and Iraq) by perfectly using Daesh?
- How and why the uprising in Syria started? How Assad/Iran/Russia killed 600-700 thousand people by dropping barrel bombs everyday for 6 years, how they managed to flee millions of people? How they succeeded to make Syria an Alawit/Shia country, which had 80% sunni muslims majority before the uprising?
- Why USA and many western countries did almost nothing militarily and economically for those millions of people, which Turkey now hosts 3 million of them???

I tried to provide some short answers to some of them. If you would like to argue about the above questions, I am ready to slam the rock solid facts to your face. I don't have so much time, but I can do. On the other hand I don't want to turn this very nice forum into a political arena because of some liers.

In very short summary, it is the western world who clearly betrayed Turkey in the last 6-7 years...

And what about S400? I actually don't understand why we purchase them. It gave the Turkey/Muslim haters the reason to politically attack. On the other hand, can one or two S400 batteries provide a strong air space protection? Of course no. So what is the reason? I really don't know...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 16:42
by mas
Turkey was doing a pretty good impersonation of covertly supporting Isis when it suited them i.e. when they were attacking Kurds and Assad.

https://www.rt.com/news/337079-turkey-i ... -evidence/
https://www.rt.com/news/340897-isis-oil ... ria-turkey
https://www.rt.com/news/330204-israel-turkey-isis-oil/
https://www.rt.com/news/327222-isis-fig ... -training/
https://www.rt.com/news/326728-iraq-rub ... -isis-oil/
https://www.rt.com/news/325044-isis-oil-turkey-iraq/

How do you solve your Kurdish problem, how about giving them the state they were promised in 1920. You will never end an indigenous people's desire for self-determination by oppression.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29702440

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 20:00
by optimist
It even makes it hard to believe in Santa Clause now. Fancy a state doing underhanded, corrupted things, that it feels is in someones best interest.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 20:05
by optimist
Dragon029 wrote:While that's generally the case with aircraft, don't forget that there's things like M1A1 / M1A2s sold to partners with downgraded armour, etc.

aus didn't want anything with depleted uranium, even the gun had to clean and never fired a DU round. the only thing I'm sure of is that in wartime, that political decision will be thrown out the window.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 20:56
by mas
The Sultan is still fuming, perhaps he might leave NATO of his own accord ...

https://www.rt.com/news/410283-nato-nor ... y-erdogan/

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has rebuffed a NATO apology for what he called “impudence” during the alliance’s drills in Norway, where he was depicted on an “enemies chart.” The scandal led to the withdrawal of Turkish troops from the exercise.

On Friday, Ankara ordered its troops to pull out of NATO military games in Norway after the incumbent Turkish leader and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of the modern Turkish state, appeared in an “enemy” list. Following the scandal, both NATO and Norway offered their apologies for the incident, saying that the message did not reflect their views.

“There can be no alliance like that," Erdogan said on Friday, adding that even the removal of those names would not change the decision. On Saturday, despite the officials’ apologies and affirmations, the insulted leader remained steadfast, saying that NATO cannot easily get away with the incident.

"Yesterday, you have witnessed the impudence at NATO exercises in Norway. There are some mistakes that cannot be committed by fools but only by vile people,” Erdogan said in a televised speech. He added that the incident shows “a reflection of a distorted point of view that we have observed in NATO for a while."

"This matter cannot be covered over with a simple apology," Erdogan added.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 21:39
by spazsinbad
'mas' likes to quote RT & APA - here is an alternate view of above RT story.
NATO apologizes after Turkey’s president shown as enemy during drill
17 Nov 2017 Suzan Fraser, The Associated Press

"...Details of the incident were sketchy. Erdogan said Ataturk’s picture and his own name were featured on an “enemy chart” during the drills. The individual who posted the material was described as a Norwegian civil contractor seconded by Norway, and not a NATO employee.

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg issued a statement saying: “I apologize for the offense caused.” He said the incident was the result of an “individual’s actions” and didn’t reflect the views of the alliance.

He added that the individual was removed from the exercise and an investigation was underway. “It will be for the Norwegian authorities to decide on any disciplinary action,” Stoltenberg added. “Turkey is a valued NATO ally, which makes important contributions to allied security.”

Norwegian Defence Minister Frank Bakke-Jensen apologized for the incident. “The message does not reflect Norway’s views or policies and I apologize for the content of the message,” Bakke-Jensen said in a statement. He added that “Turkey is an important ally in NATO, and we value our good cooperation.”

The Joint Warfare Centre is a multinational NATO unit based in Stavanger, 186 miles southwest of Oslo. It is currently led by Maj. Gen. Andrzej Reudowicz of Poland. According to its website, it has a staff of 250 made up of civilians from 11 NATO member states, including Turkey.

In March, the Norwegian government caused fury in Turkey by granting political asylum to five Turkish officers based in Norway who had refused to return home after the failed July 2016 coup attempt in Turkey. The five officers said that they feared being arrested and tortured in Turkey."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/training-si ... ing-drill/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 21:48
by mas
That's not an alternative, just the prelude to the response. Like I said, he's a loose cannon, probably the most unstable leader of any country and he's got some pretty stiff competition on that score at the moment :).

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 22:42
by spazsinbad
My concern was with NATO and the story/NATO apology details.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 23:04
by krorvik
Looks like a norwegian officer, with turkish background, is the offender on the military side. In addition, a civilian employee is said to have been a part.

Official apologies by norwegian defense secretary and NATO general secretary is likely to lay the official problem to rest - comms through regular channels does not seem to be affected.

Erdogan is sure to try milking it domestically though.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Nov 2017, 23:08
by optimist
Indonesia had a similar dummy spit with the Aussies, this year. It seems to be part of life, that they don't want to be red force and such. :devil:
http://www.smh.com.au/world/indonesia-a ... tltai.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 02:38
by nutshell
mas wrote:The Sultan is still fuming, perhaps he might leave NATO of his own accord ...

https://www.rt.com/news/410283-nato-nor ... y-erdogan/

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has rebuffed a NATO apology for what he called “impudence” during the alliance’s drills in Norway, where he was depicted on an “enemies chart.” The scandal led to the withdrawal of Turkish troops from the exercise.

On Friday, Ankara ordered its troops to pull out of NATO military games in Norway after the incumbent Turkish leader and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, founder of the modern Turkish state, appeared in an “enemy” list. Following the scandal, both NATO and Norway offered their apologies for the incident, saying that the message did not reflect their views.

“There can be no alliance like that," Erdogan said on Friday, adding that even the removal of those names would not change the decision. On Saturday, despite the officials’ apologies and affirmations, the insulted leader remained steadfast, saying that NATO cannot easily get away with the incident.

"Yesterday, you have witnessed the impudence at NATO exercises in Norway. There are some mistakes that cannot be committed by fools but only by vile people,” Erdogan said in a televised speech. He added that the incident shows “a reflection of a distorted point of view that we have observed in NATO for a while."

"This matter cannot be covered over with a simple apology," Erdogan added.


I'm afraid he won't gtfo any time soon :(

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 02:51
by popcorn
Erdogan has POTUS on speed dial so he'll get his F-35s in all likelihood.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 03:57
by rheonomic
popcorn wrote:Erdogan has POTUS on speed dial so he'll get his F-35s in all likelihood.


Let's just include some copies of Luttwak's Coup d'État: A Practical Handbook as a bonus so they get it right next time.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 16:21
by mas
Turkey, not just me, being targeted: Erdoğan

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... gan-122653

p.s. they sure are an excitable paranoid lot.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 21:14
by krorvik
It's important to note that the last article points to a domestic rally. The rhethoric internationally is much more subdued (although worded to match the stronger language used for his own people).

Also, note that this seems to be of use in gathering support from opposition. Cue conspiracy theories ;)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:02
by durahawk
krorvik wrote:It's important to note that the last article points to a domestic rally. The rhethoric internationally is much more subdued (although worded to match the stronger language used for his own people).

Also, note that this seems to be of use in gathering support from opposition. Cue conspiracy theories ;)


Clearly, the only logical explanation is that Gullen has now begun to seize control of NATO itself in attempt to overthrow the Turkish government... all from from his apartment command center in Pennsylvania!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:05
by tincansailor
Congress needs to get involved, and ban F-35 sales to Turkey, before it's too late. They are on their way out of NATO, and will be joining Russia in an alliance to dived the ME. They will pass on all F-35 technology, to Russia, and China. Trump might as well give an F-35 away to Putin, as a personal gift.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 22:51
by optimist
What makes you think he hasn't? Unless people have their head in a bucket of rightwing sand, This whole russia thing with the US stinks. The US was never noted for uncorrupted politicians, but it was domestic, corporate controlled. This takes the cake.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Nov 2017, 23:39
by white_lightning35
REEEEEEEEE!... The discussion of internal politics and Cheeto Benito! Reeeeeeee....

On a different note, all I say is that it would be wonderful if Erdogan went erdo-gone and replaced with a non islamic dictator, and the f-35 fiasco goes poof, and then the President pardons the Turkey for Thanksgiving. Something to be truly thankful for. If only the West could step up it's coup game.....

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 02:12
by spazsinbad
Turkey may remove US radar if F-35s not delivered on schedule
16 Nov 2017 Editor

"In a bid to dissuade Turkey from going forward with the purchase of the powerful S-400 missile defense system, the U.S. had warned that such a move “would jeopardize the sale of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey.”...

...In retaliation to the American blackmail, Ankara may take measures of its own in response, atop of which is the possible dismantling of the powerful Malatya- Kürecik AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012....

...As part of its agreements with NATO, Turkey has given permission for the deployment of the radar to its territory, much to the dismay of Russia and Iran, who expressed their sharp opposition to such a move....

...In case Turkey decides to dismantle the Kürecik radar in response to the ongoing attempts by the U.S. to use the F-35 jets to blackmail Turkey, Israel will lose its “early warning system” in case of a missile launch from eastern or northern Iran.

Despite the fact that the S-400 missile defense system will run independently from the NATO network, the F-35 jets deal is being used to blackmail Turkey, whose patience is thinning after multiple attempts to block the purchase of the advanced Russian system. By 2030, Turkey is scheduled to receive a total of 116 fifth generation F-35 fighter jets, parts of which are produced domestically by TAI-TUSAŞ."

Source: http://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkey ... le-2808663

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 02:31
by maus92
white_lightning35 wrote:REEEEEEEEE!... The discussion of internal politics and Cheeto Benito! Reeeeeeee....

On a different note, all I say is that it would be wonderful if Erdogan went erdo-gone and replaced with a non islamic dictator, and the f-35 fiasco goes poof, and then the President pardons the Turkey for Thanksgiving. Something to be truly thankful for. If only the West could step up it's coup game.....


They already tried the coup angle last July, with negative results. They aren't very good at it, not enough recent practice. Erdy is still pissed about the Kurds.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 07:20
by optimist
Jared is in charge of the ME, I'm sure he will sort it out tomorrow. At least he refused to be informed on the history of the ME as it was irreverent to day. So he won't be burdened with that and has a clean sheet. He has already sorted the Israeli/Palestine issue. It was so easy, as Trump said.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 07:34
by Corsair1963
I am sure cooler heads will prevail in Turkey. As much of their Defense Sector is dependent on the US and Europe...... :roll:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 10:40
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:
Turkey may remove US radar if F-35s not delivered on schedule
16 Nov 2017 Editor

"In a bid to dissuade Turkey from going forward with the purchase of the powerful S-400 missile defense system, the U.S. had warned that such a move “would jeopardize the sale of F-35 fighter jets to Turkey.”...

...In retaliation to the American blackmail, Ankara may take measures of its own in response, atop of which is the possible dismantling of the powerful Malatya- Kürecik AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012....

...As part of its agreements with NATO, Turkey has given permission for the deployment of the radar to its territory, much to the dismay of Russia and Iran, who expressed their sharp opposition to such a move....

...In case Turkey decides to dismantle the Kürecik radar in response to the ongoing attempts by the U.S. to use the F-35 jets to blackmail Turkey, Israel will lose its “early warning system” in case of a missile launch from eastern or northern Iran.

Despite the fact that the S-400 missile defense system will run independently from the NATO network, the F-35 jets deal is being used to blackmail Turkey, whose patience is thinning after multiple attempts to block the purchase of the advanced Russian system. By 2030, Turkey is scheduled to receive a total of 116 fifth generation F-35 fighter jets, parts of which are produced domestically by TAI-TUSAŞ."

Source: http://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkey ... le-2808663


....Erdogan is in the Catbirds seat, with both Russia/ Iran and NATO eating out of his hand. Three quarters of the Turks are Sunni, so who is going to attack Turkey, the Kurds? And that needs a S-400 and radar, not! Erdogan will get his F-35s as long as he stays in NATO, less they continue to do stupid Norway stuff. Syria is a perfect example, they allied with Russia/ Iran and lost three quarters of their country to the Sunnis and the Kurds. Turkey, today without NATO can stomp Iran into a grease spot with their other Sunni allies. He will bide his time and get his jets, along with his NATO allies.
...so what's new?
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 00:32
by tincansailor
....Erdogan is in the Catbirds seat, with both Russia/ Iran and NATO eating out of his hand. Three quarters of the Turks are Sunni, so who is going to attack Turkey, the Kurds? And that needs a S-400 and radar, not! Erdogan will get his F-35s as long as he stays in NATO, less they continue to do stupid Norway stuff. Syria is a perfect example, they allied with Russia/ Iran and lost three quarters of their country to the Sunnis and the Kurds. Turkey, today without NATO can stomp Iran into a grease spot with their other Sunni allies. He will bide his time and get his jets, along with his NATO allies.
...so what's new?
:)

[/quote]

Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 00:45
by steve2267
For argument's sake, let's say Turkey is denied the F-35. Aside from the potential impact to the F-35 program due to a loss of 100+ sales... would such a denial be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back and results in Turkey leaving NATO? After all, that would be a pretty major slap in Erdogan's face.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 03:01
by sunstersun
I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 03:36
by steve2267
sunstersun wrote:I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.


I understand what you are saying about "isn't good for future partners." The flipside to that coin, though, is that just because one has invested 12 years into a particular program as a "junior" partner, do not expect that one can force the other partners, including senior partners, into doing whatever one wants them to do. That is to say, actions have consequences.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 03:54
by Corsair1963
steve2267 wrote:For argument's sake, let's say Turkey is denied the F-35. Aside from the potential impact to the F-35 program due to a loss of 100+ sales... would such a denial be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back and results in Turkey leaving NATO? After all, that would be a pretty major slap in Erdogan's face.




Turkey's Future Defense Plans are based on a number of systems from the West. If, Erdogan tried to leave the Western Alliance and NATO. He maybe facing another attempted coup by the Military! :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 08:23
by mtrman
[/quote]

Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.[/quote]

Tincan, you are soo funny. Historical advantage of geolocation???

Our geolocation is one of the worst in the world in terms of POLITICS and MILITARY CONFLICTS... Right??? Are you so blind to see how the middle east is like for the last 40 years? All of these terrible wars in this region all terribly affect Turkey. What our government is trying to do is to minimize the consequences of those wars/conflicts on our country. And while doing this, we are back-stabbed by our STRATEGIC ALLIES (???) (USA, Germany -> PKK/PYD and Gulen)

And it is soo funny to see that some others are in so much hurry to see the Turkey out of NATO. Their ignorance of the realites are so obvious that, they don't dare to speak about why all of this nonsense actions are taking place, but shamelessly discuss when Turkey will exit NATO. Please let me to remind to those stupid people that, Turkey is a strong member of NATO from very beginning, and served to help to NATO in many crisis from Korea to Kosova and Afghanistan to Baltic, sometimes by the blood of her soldiers.

I am almost sure that our goverment will not take such nonsense decisions, but will definetly continue to struggle politically with some shameless people in some countries.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 09:51
by tincansailor
mtrman wrote:


Interesting analysis Neptune. Your right that Turkey has no need for S-400 systems, unless they are planning to integrate their air defense network with Russia. Turkey is using it's historical advantage of it's strategic geographical location, to play everyone against each other. But I think decision time is coming for the F-35. Again I think Congress will get involved in this. The Administration has no strategic sense, but Congress does, they just have to get their act in gear. The S-400 deal may bring this to a head. No F-35s should go to Turkey.[/quote]

Tincan, you are soo funny. Historical advantage of geolocation???

Our geolocation is one of the worst in the world in terms of POLITICS and MILITARY CONFLICTS... Right??? Are you so blind to see how the middle east is like for the last 40 years? All of these terrible wars in this region all terribly affect Turkey. What our government is trying to do is to minimize the consequences of those wars/conflicts on our country. And while doing this, we are back-stabbed by our STRATEGIC ALLIES (???) (USA, Germany -> PKK/PYD and Gulen)

And it is soo funny to see that some others are in so much hurry to see the Turkey out of NATO. Their ignorance of the realites are so obvious that, they don't dare to speak about why all of this nonsense actions are taking place, but shamelessly discuss when Turkey will exit NATO. Please let me to remind to those stupid people that, Turkey is a strong member of NATO from very beginning, and served to help to NATO in many crisis from Korea to Kosova and Afghanistan to Baltic, sometimes by the blood of her soldiers.

I am almost sure that our goverment will not take such nonsense decisions, but will definetly continue to struggle politically with some shameless people in some countries.

[/quote]

What is so funny? All nations have geo-strategic advantages they exploit. Turkey is at the crossroads of Europe, and Asia, and the Black Sea, and the Aegean. Turkey has gained very favorable treatment from the Western Powers because of it's strategic location, since 1922. Please don't try to play a martyr role, Turkey has always acted to advance it's own interests. Thanks for joining the war against Hitler on Feb 23, 1945. My condolences for your heavy losses.

When the Soviet Union threatened Turkey after 1945 it was in Turkey's interest to join NATO. In the Post Cold War Period that threat is gone, so Turkey plays this double game, of selling it's self to the highest bidder. Turkey is now becoming an authoritarian theocracy, incompatible with Western liberal democracy. Turkey can hardly claim to be the victim in the Syrian Civil War. ISIS could never have grown so strong without the open support of Turkey, allowing it's supply lines to run though it's territory. Turkey worked to destabilize the Assad regime, in the hopes of establishing an Islamist regime in Syria.

Turkey does what Turkey want's. It refused to open a land front in both Gulf Wars. It invaded, and still occupies a third of Cyprus. It suppresses it's own Kurds, and threatens Kurds in other countries. It bullies Iraq, and Syria. It flirts with Iran, and Russia, sides with Hamas, and bashes Israel. It intimidates Greece, and threatens the Cypriots. It's hostile to Armenia. So Turkey is just a poor victim of the West. To be treated so harshly, after all Turkey has done for them, out of the goodness of their hearts, is just sheer ingratitude.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 12:30
by mtrman
What is so funny? All nations have geo-strategic advantages they exploit. Turkey is at the crossroads of Europe, and Asia, and the Black Sea, and the Aegean. Turkey has gained very favorable treatment from the Western Powers because of it's strategic location, since 1922. Please don't try to play a martyr role, Turkey has always acted to advance it's own interests. Thanks for joining the war against Hitler on Feb 23, 1945. My condolences for your heavy losses.

Are you serious? You can't answer my previous claim, but continue talk about all-nations??? Even go back to the 2nd WW?? Are you critisizing Turkey for staying neutral (which was not strong and rich at that times to hold a war with Nazis)?

When the Soviet Union threatened Turkey after 1945 it was in Turkey's interest to join NATO. In the Post Cold War Period that threat is gone, so Turkey plays this double game, of selling it's self to the highest bidder. Turkey is now becoming an authoritarian theocracy, incompatible with Western liberal democracy. Turkey can hardly claim to be the victim in the Syrian Civil War. ISIS could never have grown so strong without the open support of Turkey, allowing it's supply lines to run though it's territory. Turkey worked to destabilize the Assad regime, in the hopes of establishing an Islamist regime in Syria.

Do not need to talk about your full ignorance about Turkey and NATO cooperation for the last 60 years. But;

- Becoming an authoratian theocracy??? How many times you have visited Turkey in your life? What do you know about what have changed since the Erdogan? Who was supressed in our country? Which rights of people who is non-religious were banned? Which alcohol was banned? Which type of dressing banned or not allowed both in the state rules, or practical life??? Only the most basic rights of the religious people were given back to them during this last 15 years. Even the girls who had a simple head scarf were not allowed to go to the university before. People who was just basically performing their simple religious duties was fired from Governmental bodies.

- Yes, Turkey supported the CIVIL UPRISING in Syria which was aiming the democratic rights of the 80% sunni majority in this country, like many western countries also did. What kind of islamist regime are you talking about???

- Did you mention Daesh (ISIS)? Turkey never supported them, we only supported the Free Syrian Army. In the first years, Daesh acted like regular opposition, but then their true face and agenda become appearent. Daesh hit Turkey many times (in İstanbul, Ankara, etc) and Turkey actively hit Daesh and also actively supported the operations against Daesh by opening her air space and air bases, for the last 3 years. And you can still talk like that?

Let's also talk about who actually created Daesh (ISIS). Let's only look the non-ignorable results of their existence in Syria:
- By fighting against FSA, they magically saved Assad.
- By their terrible criminal acts, they changed the attitude of the world against Syrian uprising, and also against Islam (eventhough their rotten/distorted sect doesn't even represent 1% of total Muslims in the world. And those majority of Muslims also fight against those bastards (hariji) throughout the history. But since those bastards wave a flag which Allah (c.c.) and His Massanger name on it, they are easily shown to the world as Muslims...)
- They first seized land from Arabs and Turkmens, horribly changed the demographics of this region, and then gave those lands to the pure marxist/communist/terroris PKK/PYD. What a success?????? I congratulate your brainmasters... Only a Satan/Evil would have execute such a succesful plan...
You hit not two, perhaps 4-5 birds by using one stone....


Turkey does what Turkey want's. It refused to open a land front in both Gulf Wars. It invaded, and still occupies a third of Cyprus. It suppresses it's own Kurds, and threatens Kurds in other countries. It bullies Iraq, and Syria. It flirts with Iran, and Russia, sides with Hamas, and bashes Israel. It intimidates Greece, and threatens the Cypriots. It's hostile to Armenia. So Turkey is just a poor victim of the West. To be treated so harshly, after all Turkey has done for them, out of the goodness of their hearts, is just sheer ingratitude.

- Cyprus??? Just make some simple search and learn what happened in the Cyprus...

- Are you talking about our Kurdish origin brothers? Even though the Turkish and Kurdish people are like brothers who shared the same history and territories for 1000 years, and have the very same Islam religion, the same deep-state in Turkey also supressed some of their rights for many years. But do you know what Erdogan done? He gave the many rights back to them. Do you need me to send you news, articles, documents about those facts? Sorry, even you can find them very easily by using Google.

Every time you try to distribute your false claims, I will try to inform the others about the facts.

Unfortunately, my country doesn't know anything about telling truth to the world. We don't succeed at establising channels like RT, CNN or PressTV. You succeed to distrupt the facts and show the black as white to the world. But my country does almost nothing to show white as white. So it is up to the individuals like me to spare time and effort to answer some ignorants like you...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 14:25
by sferrin
tincansailor wrote:Congress needs to get involved, and ban F-35 sales to Turkey, before it's too late. They are on their way out of NATO, and will be joining Russia in an alliance to dived the ME. They will pass on all F-35 technology, to Russia, and China. Trump might as well give an F-35 away to Putin, as a personal gift.


This times a hundred. Iran/F-14 all over again.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 14:26
by sferrin
optimist wrote:What makes you think he hasn't? Unless people have their head in a bucket of rightwing sand, This whole russia thing with the US stinks. The US was never noted for uncorrupted politicians, but it was domestic, corporate controlled. This takes the cake.


Wow. Damn son, you must buy your tinfoil by the acre.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 14:29
by sferrin
sunstersun wrote:I'd say it's 50/50 lean towards leave NATO if he is denied the F-35.

Beyond that, the optics of canceling something after like 12 years of investment from Turkey isn't good for future partners.


They're not so dumb as to not notice WHY they'd be denied to Turkey. All the "optics" show is that a member decided to change sides midway. Only a fool would follow through selling them their best technology.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 15:10
by steve2267
mtrman, can you answer a few questions?

1) Which is more important to Turkey? S-400 or F-35?

2) Why does Turkey announce intentions to purchase S-400? That is, why does Turkey want S-400?

3) Does Turkey understand that her purchase of S-400 is incompatible, from American point of view, with purchase of F-35?

4) If Turkey does purchase S-400, and is subsequently denied F-35, will Turkey remain a valuable NATO member?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 15:49
by durahawk
sferrin wrote:
tincansailor wrote:Congress needs to get involved, and ban F-35 sales to Turkey, before it's too late. They are on their way out of NATO, and will be joining Russia in an alliance to dived the ME. They will pass on all F-35 technology, to Russia, and China. Trump might as well give an F-35 away to Putin, as a personal gift.


This times a hundred. Iran/F-14 all over again.


As someone who has personally written multiple members of that dismally incompetent body of legislature over this very issue and have yet to see a single response, (not even the usual vague canned one) I have little hope of Congress actually getting involved here.

The Amendment proposed to the NDAA this summer apparently didn’t get a single vote
thehill.com/policy/defense/341047-lawmakers-propose-halting-f-35-sale-visas-after-turkish-embassy-fight

My best guess is that this sale has way too much momentum to stop it at this point, and the geopolitical fallout/defense lobbyists have made this issue a third rail to even discuss. Why should the defense industry care? You would think that any exploitation of F-35 technology would be untenable to LM/Pratt/Northrop as it could jeopardize some of those juicy FMS orders not yet on the books. On the other hand (cynicism on), maybe they want the sale to go through and, after all, they stand to gain more than they lose from exploited technology in the form of an insurance guarantee on 6th generation fighter sales. Rinse and repeat.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 19:47
by mtrman
steve2267 wrote:mtrman, can you answer a few questions?

1) Which is more important to Turkey? S-400 or F-35?

2) Why does Turkey announce intentions to purchase S-400? That is, why does Turkey want S-400?

3) Does Turkey understand that her purchase of S-400 is incompatible, from American point of view, with purchase of F-35?

4) If Turkey does purchase S-400, and is subsequently denied F-35, will Turkey remain a valuable NATO member?


Steve,
1) As somebody who is following military aviation and almost everything related with it since teenages, I would answer as F-35, without hesitation...

2) I really don't know and understand... May be to give the US a signal that we are really disappointed and upset because of their back-stabbing of us (PKK/YPG and Gulen). But in technical terms, this purchase give us almost nothing, but a lot of headache. Even if the Russians give fully-functional (not a downgraded one) batteries, we all know that this is not enough. Without any well designed umbrella of IADS, they will be just hard targets that can be taken out with a few well planned SEAD/DEAD missions.

3) We have an army who is almost fully integrated with NATO and western world from very beginning. So I assume at least they really know. But I suspect how well they succeed to show the complete big picture to the politicians.

4) Of course yes. But it would be a big suffer for Turkey to be denied from F-35 both in militarily and politically...

At the end of the day, what I can say is: Turkey should't take such meaningless moves like S-400 purchase, but Turkey should carry out more information campaigns to tell US and German people that how we are being physically and ideologically hurted by their governments actions (PKK/YPG and Gulen)...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 20:14
by tincansailor
Are you serious? You can't answer my previous claim, but continue talk about all-nations??? Even go back to the 2nd WW?? Are you critisizing Turkey for staying neutral (which was not strong and rich at that times to hold a war with Nazis)?

The above quote did address your previous claim. Being a bridge between continents, and controlling trade routes is an advantage. Yes there has been 70 years of wars in the region, and Turkey hasn't been involved in any of them, till the current conflict in Syria. Has Turkey accepted massive refuge populations from earlier wars? No.

As for WWII after the Germans invaded Russia, and certainly after Stalingrad, they were in no position to attack Turkey. All Turkey would have had to do was stop selling Chromite to Germany. If they had cut off Chromite sales in Jan 1943 German steel production would have ended in mid 1944. Instead Turkey sold to both sides. The allies were buying Turkish Chromite along with agricultural goods to keep it out of German hands. The trade only stopped when the Soviets occupied the Balkans, and cut the land route between Germany, and Turkey in the summer of 1944.

Turkey made a mint out of WWII getting arms, money, and economic assistance from both sides. They also had mutual defense pacts with both sides. If Turkey had joined the war say in late 1943, the Balkans Countries might have avoided 40 years of being trapped behind the Iron Curtain.

[
b]Do not need to talk about your full ignorance about Turkey and NATO cooperation for the last 60 years. But;


Yes Turkey was a good NATO ally for a lot of the Cold War. They fought in Korea, but nowhere else, and were a troublesome ally on many occasions. Post Cold War they have been a lot of trouble. Turkey is mad that NATO hasn't helped then kill Kurds, or intimidate Greeks. True a lot of the problems in Syria have been caused by Obama's inaction, but Turkey siring the ethnic pot isn't helping.

- They first seized land from Arabs and Turkmens, horribly changed the demographics of this region, and then gave those lands to the pure marxist/communist/terroris PKK/PYD. What a success?????? I congratulate your brainmasters... Only a Satan/Evil would have execute such a succesful plan...
You hit not two, perhaps 4-5 birds by using one stone....[/b]

Again what you complaining about is that the Kurds gained some land, and autonomy.


- Cyprus??? Just make some simple search and learn what happened in the Cyprus...

Turkey is the only country in the world that accepts it justification for what it did. Every other country on Earth regards what the Turks did as an act of unprovoked aggression.

- Are you talking about our Kurdish origin brothers? Even though the Turkish and Kurdish people are like brothers who shared the same history and territories for 1000 years, and have the very same Islam religion, the same deep-state in Turkey also supressed some of their rights for many years. But do you know what Erdogan done? He gave the many rights back to them. Do you need me to send you news, articles, documents about those facts? Sorry, even you can find them very easily by using Google.

The Kurds are indigenes to the region, for thousands of years. The Turks arrived in the area about a thousand years ago, coming from central Asia. They conquered the Kurds, Greeks, and other people living in the Anatolian region. They have a mixed record of relations with their neighbors. In the last 100 years they have expelled the Greeks, exterminated the Armenians, and oppressed the Kurds. Erdogan has made war on his Kurds, partly because he needs enemies to justify his oppression of the rest of his subjects. How can the Kurds have political rights when no one else in the country does?

[/quote][/quote]Every time you try to distribute your false claims, I will try to inform the others about the facts.

Unfortunately, my country doesn't know anything about telling truth to the world. We don't succeed at establising channels like RT, CNN or PressTV. You succeed to distrupt the facts and show the black as white to the world. But my country does almost nothing to show white as white. So it is up to the individuals like me to spare time and effort to answer some ignorants like you...[/quote]

Turkey's record is a hard sell. The Germans have repented for their sins of the Holocaust. Turkey can't even admit to carrying out the Armenian Genocide. It's better that they join with Russia, then NATO. Russia doesn't care about any moral considerations, the only thing that matters is raw naked power. You can be a dictatorship, attack your neighbors, lie about your past, or anything else you find convenient.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 12:22
by mas
https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2017/11/275815.htm

Okay, Ilhan. Go right ahead.

QUESTION: Thank you. On Turkey. There is a gold trader whose name is Reza Zarrab who has been arrested for 18 months, and his case – his trial is about to start next week. It’s a judicial process, but Turkish President Erdogan and many of leading figures from the governing party have been talking about it. And just today Turkish president said it is a plot against Turkey, and he said that this is something – this case – something cooked the same trick up in United States as it happened in Turkey. There’s a court action case. Are you trying to cook a plot against Turkey? What’s your response?

MS NAUERT: We’ve heard that story, that old same song and dance from Turkey before, and I would have to give you the same answer as last time they accused us of trying to foment some sort of a coup. And I would say that is ridiculous. We are not engaged in that. Anything related to that particular case, I’d just have to refer you to the Department of Justice.

QUESTION: On that --

MS NAUERT: Yeah.

QUESTION: Heather, can I have a follow-up with you?

MS NAUERT: Go ahead.

QUESTION: Turkey is a NATO ally. At what point do these sort of statements and this war of words – I mean, you yourself said this was ridiculous. At what point does that lead the U.S. to sort of reassess its relationship and its alliance with Turkey and set out some sort of change in that relationship?

MS NAUERT: Well, as we’ve seen this year, there are some countries where we have – our relationship with these countries can ebb and flow sometimes. You have – like a marriage. You have a good day and sometimes you have a bad day, right?

QUESTION: Okay. (Laughter.)

MS NAUERT: And so somebody may say something that later they regret saying. They are a NATO member. They are a valued ally of the United States. We have had a strong relationship with Turkey. But really, just making comments about the United States trying to foment a coup is just – is simply ridiculous. And I think they recognize – I think they recognize that as well.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 12:38
by nutshell
Turks that talks about "backstabbing" :lmao: :lmao:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 14:43
by jakobs
I don't really see Turkey leaving Nato or being kicked out, but I think they should not receive any F-35's if they go through with the purchase of the S-400. Such a big step away need to have consequences.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 15:54
by geokav
jakobs wrote:I don't really see Turkey leaving Nato or being kicked out, but I think they should not receive any F-35's if they go through with the purchase of the S-400. Such a big step away need to have consequences.


According to the Turkish defense minister Nurettin Canikli, first systems of S-400 to be delivered in turkey in 2019. Todays article...
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/first- ... ter-122855

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 20:35
by mas
According to the Sultan the West is actively trying to undermine Islamic nations and peoples. Is this the voice of an ally or a dangerous fruit and nutcase ?

https://www.rt.com/news/410669-erdogan- ... t-muslims/

p.s. this guy stole the last election he won to give him more executive powers with ballot box stuffing of unregistered votes.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 21:00
by durahawk
mas wrote:According to the Sultan the West is actively trying to undermine Islamic nations and peoples. Is this the voice of an ally or a dangerous fruit and nutcase ?

https://www.rt.com/news/410669-erdogan- ... t-muslims/

p.s. this guy stole the last election he won to give him more executive powers with ballot box stuffing of unregistered votes.


Russian RT propaganda at its finest... They want to drive a wedge between Turkey and the EU/US/NATO and are not even trying to hide it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 21:10
by mas
The original (needs translating) does not sound any different.

President Erdogan said, "A dirty scenario is being implemented to destroy the unity, coexistence, wealth, all-important future of the Islamic world."

http://aa.com.tr/tr/gunun-basliklari/cu ... yor/973820

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Nov 2017, 08:52
by Corsair1963
Turkey is up-set over a number of things.....Yet, that doesn't mean she wants to leave NATO or cut her ties with the WEST.
:doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Nov 2017, 14:27
by madrat
Tuurkey wants to rebuild the Ottoman Empire and the piss ant cannot be trusted. Turkey is the epicenter of the Sunni reawakening of the Caliphate. The 'kingdom' fully supports that idea. So do some of our other so called allies across the Muslim world, from private sponsorship of the movement to direct nation-state involvement. The West is hiding its head in the sand pretending its not true. Unfortunately, the reality is the actors in this drama are very public about it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2017, 21:12
by mas
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/ ... 4?lo=ap_b1

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Trump told Erdogan during Friday’s phone call that the United States will cease supplying arms to the Syrian Kurdish fighters, the AP reports. Turkey considers the Syrian Kurdish fighters to be terrorists.

"Mr. Trump clearly stated that he had given clear instructions and that the YPG won't be given arms and that this nonsense should have ended a long time ago,” Cavusoglu said at a news conference.

Earlier in the day, Trump tweeted that he’d be speaking with Erdogan on Friday to discuss “bringing peace to the mess I inherited in the Middle East.”

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 06:44
by durahawk
Looks like relations with Erdogan’s Turkey is about to get a lot worse... now testimony of Turkey assisting Iran in circumventing UN sanctions by laundering its oil money.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/201 ... pdate.html

Of course Erdogan and his trolls will deny, but the credibility of Turkey as a trustworthy NATO ally is certainly in question if the allegations here are indeed true.

This Turkish F-35 deal is looking more rotten by the minute.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 09:27
by mtrman
Guys, is here a forum to discuss about the politics?

I am not an expert about neither the politics nor international relations. I don't know the details of this specific court, it's international validity, nor the involvement of FETO/Gulen in this scenario. If you think here is the place to talk about it, then go on, no problem for me.

But please let me to repeat that, I will try to reply here some ignorants or liers, who try to serve any false propaganda among some truth, who try to lie about pure marxist/communist/terrorist PKK/YPG, 40 years of global CIA project FETO/Gulen and rotten, perverted gangster group of Daesh/ISIS...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 10:25
by nathan77
mtrman wrote:Guys, is here a forum to discuss about the politics?


There are plenty of other web-sites for politics and propaganda.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 15:54
by durahawk
mtrman wrote:Guys, is here a forum to discuss about the politics?

I am not an expert about neither the politics nor international relations. I don't know the details of this specific court, it's international validity, nor the involvement of FETO/Gulen in this scenario. If you think here is the place to talk about it, then go on, no problem for me.

But please let me to repeat that, I will try to reply here some ignorants or liers, who try to serve any false propaganda among some truth, who try to lie about pure marxist/communist/terrorist PKK/YPG, 40 years of global CIA project FETO/Gulen and rotten, perverted gangster group of Daesh/ISIS...


Umm yes, actually. The title of this board is "Program and Politics: Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation". But go ahead and try to convince me that Billion dollar fighter aircraft deals don't involve politics.

I'll wait.

I posted the news article above because it is very relevant to US-Turkish relations... damage will be done to some extent whether it's true or not. Those relations are hanging in the balance already and have implications on defense sales.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 16:02
by mtrman
@Durahawk,

I agree with you. That's the reason that I wrote the second paragraph.

But there are some others who I tried to describe in the third paragraph...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 18:10
by XanderCrews
madrat wrote:Tuurkey wants to rebuild the Ottoman Empire



You'd think they would find a better Empire to strive for

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 18:22
by rheonomic
XanderCrews wrote:You'd think they would find a better Empire to strive for


Image

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2017, 23:17
by mtrman
XanderCrews wrote:
madrat wrote:Tuurkey wants to rebuild the Ottoman Empire



You'd think they would find a better Empire to strive for


iimmm, Okay.

Iran demolishes Syria, almost destroys and severely suppress, kill and moves 80% majority. And Syria is not even neighbour to Iran. BUT NOBODY CALLS IRAN as rebuiilding Persian Empire.

Russia does the same thing. AND AGAIN NOBODY CALLS RUSSIA as rebuilding the Russian Empire.

US comes to middle east. Can't find any WMD. But shakes and mixes every inche in this region, tens of thousands of miles away. Directly and indirectly kills hundreds of thousands of people. BUT AGAIN NOBODY CALLS US as building any sh*t.

Turkey, which all those terrible invasions happen just next to it's borders, tries to defend herself. Hosts millions refugees from Iraq and Syria. All her enemies are directly supported by above. AND YOU CALL TURKEY as trying to rebuild the Empire ???

LOL

What is the reason for this claim then?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 01:00
by white_lightning35
REEEEEEE.... THE STUPID, IT BURNS!!!!!!!!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Dec 2017, 11:01
by mtrman
white_lightning35 wrote:REEEEEEE.... THE STUPID, IT BURNS!!!!!!!!


Is this the logical explanation and answer your brain can produce?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2017, 12:03
by tincansailor
mtrman wrote:
white_lightning35 wrote:REEEEEEE.... THE STUPID, IT BURNS!!!!!!!!


Is this the logical explanation and answer your brain can produce?



Everyone is trying to advance their interests, and no ones hands are entirely clean. Iran has been the biggest winner in the recent chaos. America wanted a stable representative Iraq that wouldn't be threat to it's neighbors, and wouldn't be a pawn of Iran. It looked like a reasonable successful effort in 2010. Then Obama said "This is just too hard. We have to get out of here, no matter what happens. Besides my voters never wanted us in Iraq anyway."

At the same time Obama pulled the plug in Iraq the Arab Spring began, and Syria revolted. ISIS grew in the vacuum of Eastern Syria, with the help of Turkey, Iraq almost collapsed, and Russia & Iran intervened to save Assad, and America sat there and watched. Now everyone, except America is trying to pick up the pieces. Trump is satisfied to see a Russian-Turkish-Iranian Alliance become the dominate power in the Middle East. The Saudis are on the defense seeking allies, while America provides no leadership.

Everything is shifting in the sand, because it's now everyman for himself, and it will stay that way until the United States gets back in the game. That just ain't gunna happen has long as Trump is in the White House.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2017, 19:36
by mtrman
@tincan

I agree with many points. But with a few exceptions:

- US intervention in Iraq since the gulf war is not such innocent;
- How a Kurdish de facto state establised after Gulf War? Who benefitted it? (Israel, US)
- Who benefitted the almost independent southern shia Iraq? (of course Iran)
- Who benefitted the systematic destruction of sunni majority of central Iraq? (Iran)
- Who handed over the central Iraq Government to Shia gangs? (Obama) Who benefitted? (Iran)

- Turkey, only helped FSA, not Daesh. I tried to explain what Daesh (ISIS) is and who entirely benefitted and who is being harmed by it's existence in my previous posts. I had put some very strong claims and questions about Daesh, PKK/YPG and US trio. But there is not anybody yet to give any solid answer...

- I am also quite surprised to see your comparison between Trump and Obama since I guess you are from US. When I examine the almost all of Obama's actions, he directly or indirectly harmed sunni muslims and countries, while doing anything, again anything against Russia and Shia Iran... Isn't it? And Trump, while seems to be like a crazy guy, is bolder and more determined against Russia and Iran. At least he dared to send a few cruise missiles after one of the uses of chemical weapons in Syria...

As an outsider, I am watching gaping, how the Trump, a democratically selected President, is being attacked by so many organisations...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 03 Dec 2017, 21:24
by nutshell
Section: "programs and politics"

Topic: "Turkey problem"

Expressing the opinion the Turkey should not receive the most advanced western platform and should not stay in Nato is very,very on topic.

Turkey and the west are too different and so they should go separate ways.

Moreover, not even turkish people want this alliance.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2017, 08:25
by tincansailor
mtrman wrote:@tincan

I agree with many points. But with a few exceptions:

- US intervention in Iraq since the gulf war is not such innocent;
- How a Kurdish de facto state establised after Gulf War? Who benefitted it? (Israel, US)
- Who benefitted the almost independent southern shia Iraq? (of course Iran)
- Who benefitted the systematic destruction of sunni majority of central Iraq? (Iran)
- Who handed over the central Iraq Government to Shia gangs? (Obama) Who benefitted? (Iran)

- Turkey, only helped FSA, not Daesh. I tried to explain what Daesh (ISIS) is and who entirely benefitted and who is being harmed by it's existence in my previous posts. I had put some very strong claims and questions about Daesh, PKK/YPG and US trio. But there is not anybody yet to give any solid answer...

- I am also quite surprised to see your comparison between Trump and Obama since I guess you are from US. When I examine the almost all of Obama's actions, he directly or indirectly harmed sunni muslims and countries, while doing anything, again anything against Russia and Shia Iran... Isn't it? And Trump, while seems to be like a crazy guy, is bolder and more determined against Russia and Iran. At least he dared to send a few cruise missiles after one of the uses of chemical weapons in Syria...

As an outsider, I am watching gaping, how the Trump, a democratically selected President, is being attacked by so many organisations...



I will try to answer some of your questions, or at least give you my opinion.

First when you say America wasn't innocent after the first Gulf War. I take it your a Turk. Turks have a fear of any Kurds having any sort of independent life, America isn't. The Kurds were enemies of Saddam, and worked with the U.S., and were friendly toward Israel. We didn't want Saddam to massacre them, so we protected them. The Kurds of Iraq have lived in a peaceful multi party democratic state, allied with America, that's fine to most of the world, not the Turks. The same is true for the Marsh Arabs. They were a threat to no one, and we didn't want Saddam to kill them.

We didn't destroy any Sunni majority in central Iraq. A unified Iraq is majority Shiite, If you have a national election a Shiite is gonna win. Bush used his influence on almost a daily basis to keep the government in Bagdad from hurting Sunni interests. Obama didn't want to make the effort. Iraq was not a puppet of Iran in 2010. The situation was being managed. Obama had a policy of accommodation at almost any price with Iran. His judgment sucked.

Turkey gave some support to the FSA. They allowed volunteer fighters, arms, and supplies to cross their territory to ISIS, and traded oil with them. Erdogan's family made money off it. Later ISIS attacked Turkey, and Turkey regretted what it did.

Yes I agree Trump is a crazy guy. He is against Iran, but not Russia. He has no coherent strategy. He cannot reconcile his anti Iran, and pro Russia positions, in the face of a Russian Iranian alliance. He fired 59 Tomahawks into Syria for emotional reasons. It upset him, and his daughter that Assad gassed children. The attack represented no change in policy. He has no objection to the Russian slaughtering children in Syria, as long as they don't use gas, and he doesn't see the pictures of the dead kids on his TV.

Trump likes the Turks because he makes money there, and the Saudis for the same reason, and because they hate Iran. He has no idea on a strategy on Sunni vs Shiite. That's why we almost stumbled into giving the ok for a war between the Saudis and Qatar. That would have been a disaster for or Middle East policy, and Iran would have been the big winner.

He's an emotional man, not a planner. All his ideas on foreign policy are unformed. He has prejudges, and stereotypes. His ideas change when he talks to someone new. That's why world leaders are able to manipulate him so easily. Before he was elected China was a currency manipulator that he would stop on his first day in office. Now the Chinese President is his best buddy, because if you like Trump, Trump likes you.

America is a free country, unlike Turkey. People and organizations are free to disagree with a president. Trump was duly elected, but by a minority popular vote. He is the most unpopular president in modern times. Every president in modern times has his popularity go up after their election. People who voted against them, or didn't even vote give him their support because they hope for the good of the country, and they want to give him a chance. Trump acted in the most obnoxious manner, offending most of those not on his side, starting immediately after his election, and just offended the majority of the country, and lowered his numbers to all-time lows.

He has offended his own party in congress, his own intelligence services, the very idea of free press, the courts, minorities, women, academia, and the general sense of decency of most people. About 60% of Americans think he is unfit for office, and many doubt his mental stability. In general he has treated the institutions of this country with contempt. He treats everyone who publicly disagrees with him with contempt, and childish name calling. He has confused, frightened, and insulted many of our allies. No other president has acted in this manor, or to this degree. All these behaviors can't help but provoke public attacks. For most Americans, even his supporters he is an embarrassment.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2017, 10:32
by laos
tincansailor wrote:Yes I agree Trump is a crazy guy. He is against Iran, but not Russia. He has no coherent strategy. He cannot reconcile his anti Iran, and pro Russia positions, in the face of a Russian Iranian alliance.
Trump likes the Turks because he makes money there, and the Saudis for the same reason, and because they hate Iran.


Let me give you some European perspective. Russia is a bigger threat to Central Europe than to US.
There was no more anti-Russian US president since Ronald Reagan. Trump presents the most coordinated policy of harming Russia in the economic and military fields since Ronald Reagan. You are probably a victim of stupidity in CNN.

Facts:
It was the government of President Trump who threatened sanctions against any European company that will engage in the construction of the Russian North Stream 2 gas pipeline that Russia, Germany and France want to build in order for Russia to be able to cut Central Europe for gas supply or use the thread in its foreign policy. He is ready to harm relations with Germany and France in order to hit Russia in the most sensitive point of their economy. It was for President Trump that the United States became very involved in the defense for Poland and the Baltic States against Russia. When there were Russian military exercises Zapad 2017 in fall of 2017, there were almost 2 ABCT + paratroopers, cavalry and many other units in Poland and Baltic States. For the first time since the end of cold war. Almost every day, American electronic intelligence planes fly along Kaliningrad and Belorussian border in Poland. It was President Trump who began building strategic warehouses in Poland for the needs of quickly deployed troops from the USA. Obama was a pussy for Russians and he even admitted it himself in famous recording when he spoke with Mr. Miedwiediew. Obama said that any his anty russian statement are only for election show and after the elections he will be very elastic for them.
In my opinion Trump pursues a policy based on US interests, not based on ideas like democracy, political correctness.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 Dec 2017, 19:51
by tincansailor
Let me give you some European perspective. Russia is a bigger threat to Central Europe than to US.
There was no more anti-Russian US president since Ronald Reagan. Trump presents the most coordinated policy of harming Russia in the economic and military fields since Ronald Reagan. You are probably a victim of stupidity in CNN.

Facts:
It was the government of President Trump who threatened sanctions against any European company that will engage in the construction of the Russian North Stream 2 gas pipeline that Russia, Germany and France want to build in order for Russia to be able to cut Central Europe for gas supply or use the thread in its foreign policy. He is ready to harm relations with Germany and France in order to hit Russia in the most sensitive point of their economy. It was for President Trump that the United States became very involved in the defense for Poland and the Baltic States against Russia. When there were Russian military exercises Zapad 2017 in fall of 2017, there were almost 2 ABCT + paratroopers, cavalry and many other units in Poland and Baltic States. For the first time since the end of cold war. Almost every day, American electronic intelligence planes fly along Kaliningrad and Belorussian border in Poland. It was President Trump who began building strategic warehouses in Poland for the needs of quickly deployed troops from the USA. Obama was a pussy for Russians and he even admitted it himself in famous recording when he spoke with Mr. Miedwiediew. Obama said that any his anty russian statement are only for election show and after the elections he will be very elastic for them.
In my opinion Trump pursues a policy based on US interests, not based on ideas like democracy, political correctness.

[/quote]

Thank you for your prospective. Yes what you say is true. Trump has done all those things. The question is why? Many of the defensive measures you talk about were begun by Obama. After pulling all heavy units out of Europe we had to go back, when the Russia threat got hotter after the attack on Ukraine. The first deployments and stockpiling of arms to Eastern Europe were also begun under Obama. You have no idea how it hurts me to say anything nice about Obama, his policies were terrible.

The natural gas policy change was for domestic reasons. Trump wants to sell gas because it's in American interests to make money for the American energy sector, not to hurt Russia. Trump has failed to implement the sanctions that Congress imposed on Russia this August. He had a deadline of Oct 1. He is under intense scrutiny on any concessions to Russia. Those military activities your talking about are being implemented by the national security establishment, or has Trump, and the Russians would call it the "Deep State". If he had stopped them it would have caused an uproar in America.

Trump has publicly questioned if our NATO commitments to any member state are valid if their not paying their 2%. He has questioned if America would really go to war for Estonia? He said it in mocking tones, implying that little Estonia just isn't worth it. Many of his supporters repeated that suggestion, in the same mocking tones.

There was a fundamental change for many on the Right in American after the Cold War. The Cold War was a struggle with Communism, so the Right was all in in the ideological battle. When Russia became a White Nationalist State many on the Right lost interest in our commitment to a free Europe. They reverted to a pre WWII mindset of America First. Support for national interests, retreat from global commitments, and institutions. He said the people of Crimea wanted to part of Russia.

You mentioned not basing American policy on advancing democracy. Your correct. Support for democracy has all but disappeared from our agenda. The State Department has been dismantled. 1/3 of it's budget cut, it's top positions unfilled, ambassadors un-appointed, pro democracy programs defunded. When Trump visited your President this summer he stood with him and publicly mocked the press. This with a leader who has attempted to muzzle the press in Poland, and put it under state control.

No president before Trump would have done that. It is a betrayal of what America has stood for in the world, Freedom. You can't have freedom without free media. Our founders understood that, and enshrined it in our First Amendment to the Constitution. Advancing freedom in the world has been a pillar of American foreign policy since Wilson. I seem to recall he returned the favor from Kosciuszko and helped Poland be reborn.

Trump embraced the ideas of general Flynn, not our traditional policy. Flynn saw a world were our main threat was from the Muslim World, not Russia. Russia was seen as a powerful ally in that struggle against a mutual enemy. In that world view Russia is worth a hell of a lot more then our commitment to Poland. If you think Donald Trump has a warm place in his heart for Poland, it seems he has an even warmer place for Russia.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 10:53
by laos
Dear Tincansailor

Thank you for your opinions and interesting information that I was not aware off.
Poles are very thankful to president Wilson for his 13th point of his Fourteen Points and decision to support Poland in its struggle against Germany and Soviet Union in the end of I WW. In 1926 5,5 mln Poles sign a thank you letter to citizens of USA. The letter is in the library of US Congress.

I am trying to observe results without looking into the political statements that quit often do not bring results or that change frequently. Especially frequently in the present administration. Statements from the elections shouldn’t be taken seriously because in resent times they are only aimed on particular group of listeners. When you speak to farmers you say what farmers want to hear. When you speak to students you speak what students want to hear even though it might contradict what you spoke to farmers.
In the last days of Obama 8 year term and only after Warsaw NATO summit that force the commitment, Obama administration made decision that in the January 2017 the deployment of circa 1 ABCT commence. The traffic in the fall of 2017 of US unites that can be seen in Central Europe in much more then that. Off course is very likely that guys that stand behind that decision are Mattis, Scaparrotti and others. Still, the president have a right to veto it. From the public statements I guess gen. Breedlove ask Obama for it and it was vetoed by democratic administration.

Not building North Stream 2 does not directly lead to purchase of US gas. All the present demand can be met through present day pipes. Poland have a long term contract with Katar for natural gas along the natural gas contract with Russia. The sell of US gas on European market is win-win solution. It’s good for US companies because it’s open new market for them, it’s good for European countries because it brinks competition to the market and it’s good for NATO because if Russia is denied ability to sell it’s gas on European market it will not have money that can be use to modernize it armed forces. Still, it is happening now. Somehow it didn’t happened 8 years ago. Maybe someone was afraid to tread on Russian snake for last 8 years?

Trump commend that US may not defend countries that do not pay 2% for defense, even being ridiculous, was very good. Rich west European countries try to ride on poor European countries back for common defense. During cold war they spent a lot for common defense and now when they do not feel endangered by Russia, want that defense of NATO against Russia is provided by poor central European countries and USA. Poland GDP is circa 7,5 smaller than Germany GDP. It’s not right and I think it’s good the Trump said that. My perception of Trump is that he is a “player”. He say things to achieve his goals, not that he mean what he says.

But the topic is Turkey.
In view of thousands of pro European Turkish military and diplomatic personnel asking for political asylum in Europe, the perception is that the only military personnel left not in prison in Turkey, is pro Islamist and anti European. If Erdogan and it’s supporters in Turkey military, view Russia as a better partner to achieve Turkish government goals, how NATO may believe that turkey will not leak NATO secrets to Russia ?
The people of Turkey have a right to democratically choose the way majority want to live. If they want to live in caliphate, it’s their right to choose it. But NATO should consider whether Turkey, as we know it today, is Turkey that was allowed to join NATO many years ago. Would we accept Turkey to NATO now, a country with 100.000 political prisoners ?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 12:00
by madrat
Europe has gone out of its way to integrate Turkey. The experiment failed. Turkey has been the stepping stone to the fanatical religious zealot invasion of Europe for centuries and a few decades of making love was to forget that? Not hardly. Gee, I wonder if Turkey had any involvement in previous wars that engulfed the whole of Europe?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Dec 2017, 14:19
by tincansailor
laos wrote:Dear Tincansailor

Thank you for your opinions and interesting information that I was not aware off.
Poles are very thankful to president Wilson for his 13th point of his Fourteen Points and decision to support Poland in its struggle against Germany and Soviet Union in the end of I WW. In 1926 5,5 mln Poles sign a thank you letter to citizens of USA. The letter is in the library of US Congress.

But the topic is Turkey.
In view of thousands of pro European Turkish military and diplomatic personnel asking for political asylum in Europe, the perception is that the only military personnel left not in prison in Turkey is pro Islamist and anti European. If Erdogan and it’s supporters in Turkey military view Russia as a better partner to achieve Turkish government goals, how NATO may believe that turkey will not leak NATO secrets to Russia ?
The people of Turkey have a right to democratically choose the way majority want to live. If they want to live in caliphate, it’s their right to chose it. But NATO should consider whether Turkey as we know it today is Turkey that was allowed to join NATO many years ago. Would we accept now to NATO a country with 100.000 political prisoners ?



Your very welcome laos. Your prospective as an Eastern European is very interesting, and appreciated. Your so right about politicians adjusting their pitch for the audience. In the case of Trump it's always hard to say what he really means. He has taken every position on almost all issues at one time or another. The only steady position he seems to have taken is a desire to cultivate friendship with Russia. There's not really a constituency in America to say "Ukraine, is that even a country? I thought it was part of Russia."

The issue is always trust, and confidence. Trump is a highly unstable person, steeped in corruption, and heavily dependent on Russian dirty money. He's record is of a dishonest businessman, who cheats everyone around him. He lies pathologically. He's driven by ego. It's difficult to have confidence in a man like that.

Yes Turkey is a major problem. It has become an authoritarian state, with a theocratic tinge. It has it's feet in several camps. It's a NATO member in military cooperation with Russia. It's a Sunni State with ties to the Saudi led Sunni Block that opposes Iran. At the same time it's cooperating with Iran to control the Kurds, and upholds a common front in Syria with both Iran, and Russia. It has aspirations of being a major regional power in both the Middle East, and the Mediterranean. They may sometimes look west, but their heart is in the east. This is about the last country that should have the F-35.

The problem may be that Trump has financial interests in Turkey. He has said that he can't do much with Erdogan, because he has two towers in Turkey. Trump is so compromised it's a danger to national security. Everything is kind of up in the air. America is essentially leaderless. As you say men like Mattis, Kelly, and McMasters are trying to hold everything together, not let a war breakout in Korea, or give the store away to Russia. It's hard to manage a 71 year old child.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 03:36
by rheonomic
laos wrote:Poles are very thankful to president Wilson for his 13th point of his Fourteen Points and decision to support Poland in its struggle against Germany and Soviet Union in the end of I WW. In 1926 5,5 mln Poles sign a thank you letter to citizens of USA. The letter is in the library of US Congress.


Sorry about 1939...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Dec 2017, 06:10
by tincansailor
rheonomic wrote:
laos wrote:Poles are very thankful to president Wilson for his 13th point of his Fourteen Points and decision to support Poland in its struggle against Germany and Soviet Union in the end of I WW. In 1926 5,5 mln Poles sign a thank you letter to citizens of USA. The letter is in the library of US Congress.


Sorry about 1939...



What do you think America could do about it in 1939? Things should have been done before that. The real tragedy was 1945, and I don't know what we could have done then, short of WWIII.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:03
by mas
That great NATO ally is at it again getting all religiously fundamental again ...

https://www.rt.com/news/412892-turkey-j ... -reaction/

Turkey’s Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu has criticized the Muslim countries which failed to show a strong response to Washington’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, accusing them of being afraid of the US.

“There was a lot of strong reaction, reaction from the highest level. Some countries, however, have shown a very weak response. It seems that some countries are very timid, since the decision came from that country [the US],” the Minister told NTV broadcaster on Tuesday, adding that such countries were afraid of challenging the US and its “superpower mentality.”

“Some countries in the Islamic world are in a state of fear. Who or what are you afraid of? If we do not protect Jerusalem today, when will we protect it? If we cannot defend Jerusalem, one of Islam’s three holy cities, what can we defend?” Cavusoglu stated.

On Sunday, Turkey’s President Recep Tayyip Erdogan harshly criticized Israel, branding it a “terrorist state” while describing the Palestinians as its “victims.” Erdogan vowed to fight Trump’s decision and not “abandon” Jerusalem at the hands of a state which “kills children.”


Is the US seriously going to sell F-35s to these nutters ?! Just say it's incompatible with S-400 and be done with it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:11
by weasel1962
Its not a Turkey problem. Its really a muslim one. Moderate Malaysia stands willing to send troops to Jerusalem? It doesnt take a genius to guess what the populations in more extreme muslim countries have in terms of reactions.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:23
by mas
Turkey used to be a moderate secular state, whatever happened to that ? You can't seriously give F-35s to a state that wants to have punch-ups with Israel and a few European states now.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 01:34
by weasel1962
One needs to distinguish between managing local populations which tend to be influenced by mass events vs the people in control. The messages that countries like Turkey and Malaysia issues could be for local consumption rather than real actions because if they don't address the local populations, the population will change the Government to someone who does listen.

That's generally the job of the state department to find out. Might be a bit more difficult for the US nowadays with the issues at state. There have been some spectacular screw ups. Not many here will now remember F-14s to Iran before 1979.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 02:32
by white_lightning35
One must consider the wider implications of Turkey getting kicked out of the West, so to speak. They have an Islamic dictator, and it appears many support him, but things can change. People can be led astray under powerful influences. I don't know if Turkey is too far gone, but hopefully that is not the case.

That being said, I support the move of the US embassy. It is an important statement, not an important action. The people who claim moral equivalency between Israel and Palestine are delusional. Israel is the good side in this conflict. They have screwed up a a lot in the past, but they are the who should be supported. The various Muslim groups really wanted to wipe Israel out, and they still do, but they failed. Maybe some choice countries should stand up, and show them where the real power lays, if they want destruction so bad.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 02:51
by weasel1962
The message from the diplomats I do speak to was:

If the Flynn story didn't happen, with Trump being a master of distraction, would Trump still have declared Jerusalem at this specific time, the only news story that could have turned all other stories into a side show?

We may never know....but in that perspective, very legitimate case to blame Mueller and the Dems for this mess.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 03:52
by madrat
Turkey has twisted Europeans against themselves with their treacherous secret treatises. How do the same people basically throw a continent into civil wars time and time again without being called out on it? It's only been two decades since they unsettled Yugoslavia.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Dec 2017, 04:08
by weasel1962
madrat wrote:Turkey has twisted Europeans against themselves with their treacherous secret treatises. How do the same people basically throw a continent into civil wars time and time again without being called out on it? It's only been two decades since they unsettled Yugoslavia.


Oh so now we blame Turkey for balkanization. Strange, someone forgot to tell the State department that because I don't see any mention of Turkey anywhere....

https://history.state.gov/milestones/19 ... yugoslavia

Might as well blame Turkey for Jerusalem because if they had kept the Ottoman empire intact, none of this mess Israel is in today would have happened.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:17
by spazsinbad
Turkey wants to link F-35 jets to its Air Force network
09 Jan 2018 Burak Ege Bekdil

"ANKARA, Turkey —Turkey’s defense procurement agency has officially launched a competition to combine all information systems on the country’s planned F-35 Lightning II fifth-generation multirole fighter jets to the Turkish Air Forces’ system network. The Undersecretariat for Defence Industries (SSM in its Turkish acronym) dubs the program F-35/Air Force Information System Integration Project.

Under the program, the successful contender will connect the information systems installed on the F-35 fighter aircraft with the Air Forces’ information systems network, otherwise known as HvBS. “The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Forces’ information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” SSM said.

SSM has asked bidders to suggest solutions by Feb. 28. SSM’s department for cybersecurity and electronic warfare systems will be in charge of the program.

Turkey is a partner in the U.S.-led, multinational Joint Strike Fighter program. Under the JSF program, Turkey has committed to procure a total of 116 aircraft. Turkey placed its first JSF order in 2014 under its low-rate initial production 10 program, and its second order in October 2016...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/01 ... e-network/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:32
by SpudmanWP
Northrop should just sell them Freedom550 terminals and then let them build the rest of the network.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... rminal.pdf

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:32
by steve2267
How does this work if Turkey is procuring the Russian S-400 SAM system?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:36
by SpudmanWP
steve2267 wrote:How does this work if Turkey is procuring the Russian S-400 SAM system?


Something has to act as a central data fusion engine, even if the F-35 is not part of it. That engine will gather data from all over the existing battlefield and add new systems like S-400/F-35. Each system will then in turn be able to talk to the engine to get an updated picture if the battlefield in it's area.

Since there is a central engine, the systems do not talk to each other, the S-400 will not be communicating with the F-35 and vice versa.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:38
by loke
weasel1962 wrote:We may never know....but in that perspective, very legitimate case to blame Mueller and the Dems for this mess.

What!?

Flynn and several others screw up and you blame Mueller and the Democrats? I hope you are joking...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:43
by loke
SpudmanWP wrote:
steve2267 wrote:How does this work if Turkey is procuring the Russian S-400 SAM system?


Something has to act as a central data fusion engine, even if the F-35 is not part of it. That engine will gather data from all over the existing battlefield and add new systems like S-400/F-35. Each system will then in turn be able to talk to the engine to get an updated picture if the battlefield in it's area.

Since there is a central engine, the systems do not talk to each other, the S-400 will not be communicating with the F-35 and vice versa.

NATO has already made it clear that the S-400 systems will not be integrated, and this is not limited to the F-35.

Perhaps this is why Turkey is building SAM systems with France and Italy?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-turk ... SKBN1D829I

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2018 ... nt-project

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:46
by SpudmanWP
I think that is talking about direct integration, like putting Link-16 on the S-400 system.

A fusion engine solves a lot of the problem because the kind of data that flows from the engine to the S-400 system can be regulated.

Btw, The quote I found said "could not be integrated" rather than "will not be". It's more of a technical issue rather than a political one.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:51
by steve2267
SpudmanWP wrote:Something has to act as a central data fusion engine, even if the F-35 is not part of it. That engine will gather data from all over the existing battlefield and add new systems like S-400/F-35. Each system will then in turn be able to talk to the engine to get an updated picture if the battlefield in it's area.

Since there is a central engine, the systems do not talk to each other, the S-400 will not be communicating with the F-35 and vice versa.


OK, but given how the US (NSA / CIA / Israeli Unit 8200) allegedly orchestrated the Stuxnet attack on the Iranian Natanz facility... do you really want to give the Russians such a direct attack vector from S-400 systems into the central nervous system of a Nato ally? Or does Nato just accept the assurances of Putin that he would never authorize such a thing?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2018, 22:55
by SpudmanWP
Data fusion engine or not, the S-400 system will be plugged into the Turkish defense network at some level, that ship has sailed.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 02:07
by sunstersun
has turkey really committed to 116 F-35s?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 02:36
by spazsinbad
LM Fast Facts & Program of Record: https://www.f35.com/global/participation/turkey say 100 is the official number - however politicians can say a lot of things that are not set in stone eh. Just ask Canadafukians - how are YOU doin'? Eh.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 03:35
by sunstersun
guess they are already factoring in the 16 F-35B's :P
:doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 06:33
by tincansailor
Kill the F-35 sale to Turkey before the situation gets more out of control. This will damage NATO, and other allied countries national security on so many levels. Losing 116 F-35 sales is of no consequence, the market will only grow, and more then make up for the difference. Someone in charge has to start using some brains, and get a strategic sense. Can McMasters kill this deal on his way out of the White House?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 15:30
by mtrman
tincansailor wrote:Kill the F-35 sale to Turkey before the situation gets more out of control. This will damage NATO, and other allied countries national security on so many levels. Losing 116 F-35 sales is of no consequence, the market will only grow, and more then make up for the difference. Someone in charge has to start using some brains, and get a strategic sense. Can McMasters kill this deal on his way out of the White House?


@tincansailor;
You are going full speed on your very subjective and Turkish/Muslim hatred comments. I say this, because in this thread, you had already posted a lot of BS even about long past history with a lot of lies. I hope I was/will able to expose your those hatred lies.

It is unbelievable that you can mention such nonsense that Turkey will buy the F-35s and sell critical info to the Russians, etc. Are you a child? Yes, U.S. deep state is openly and blatantly betraying Turkey by openly and blatantly supporting a pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist group (YPG/PKK) which has been harming Turkey for more than 30 years. But even under this terrible circumstance, any of ranked officials or politicians in Turkey would do such a childish thing.

1- Turkey is still a strong NATO ally,
2- Nothing has changed in her foundations.

Purchasing a Russian missile defense system to meet her needs does not mean that above two bullets have changed. If Turkey buys F-35 then it means all the necessary sensitivity will be kept.

For the technical part, I think Spudman has nailed it;

SpudmanWP wrote:
steve2267 wrote:How does this work if Turkey is procuring the Russian S-400 SAM system?


Something has to act as a central data fusion engine, even if the F-35 is not part of it. That engine will gather data from all over the existing battlefield and add new systems like S-400/F-35. Each system will then in turn be able to talk to the engine to get an updated picture if the battlefield in it's area.

Since there is a central engine, the systems do not talk to each other, the S-400 will not be communicating with the F-35 and vice versa.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 06:52
by element1loop
tincansailor wrote:Kill the F-35 sale to Turkey before the situation gets more out of control. This will damage NATO, and other allied countries national security on so many levels. Losing 116 F-35 sales is of no consequence, ... <snipped>


I largely agree. The many equivocating and condemnatory comments plus propaganda coming directly from the mouth(s) of the leadership of Turkey over the past 3-years (since the immediate aftermath of Charlie Hebdo attack in Paris, actually, Jan 2015) renders the following two claims absurd.


1- Turkey is still a strong NATO ally,
2- Nothing has changed in her foundations.



"Nothing has changed in her foundations"?

Not even a national constitution, imprisonment of a lawful democratic opposition, and bridling of free speech, and a free press, ... etc. ... etc.?

This can not be taken seriously as a reply, nor a serious basis for arguing for status-quo to remain in place. There have been dozens of statements made by Turkey's leadership that seriously calls those claims into doubt. (the further assertion that "hate" is at the heart of this, also can not be taken seriously).

Turkey's allegiance to NATO state defence could not be more unclear. It's already become too high a risk to permit tech/info/software/data transfers to proceed further. Without profound changes in the leadership cohort, and its attitudes, and a formal recant of its positions on several topics, it's hard to foresee a future where it would be acceptable.

The stakes are too high, and this is a matter of Turkey's own generation, excessive reaction-ism and avid domestic public and international exacerbation.

Bottom-line is, this is a risk that does not have to be taken. The F-35 is not actually essential to Turkey's defence nor to deterrance of aggression against Turkey, within the NATO alliance. Turkey can be effectively defended via its own airforce, plus the armed support of its NATO allies (i.e. just like a dozen other NATO states, sans F-35s in their respective airforces).

Not delivering F-35s to Turkey may be the diplomatic shunt it needs to actually reform and rationalise the nonsense that's been going on there thus ending up with a reformed and reliable ally, much sooner.

If not so be it ... we'll just adjust .. and already are.

Turkey's clearly hedging internationally, on many levels, and that's a warning signal. And the alliance(s) should be hedging accordingly, as that's the proper and valid response, and should not be inhibited from operating from here.

Let Turkey take on the resulting risks and feel the costs of dodgy comments, claims, actions and attitudes ... not the rest of us.

"You can go your own way" - Fleetwood Mac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ul-cZyuYq4

Maybe they'll snap out of it in a decade ... maybe not ... if not it's far better to safeguard, where the risk is real, but non-essential to take, let alone necessary to accept.

They'll have to re 'prove' themselves, first, and we have to fundamentally review what's gained via continuing and why that's being done, besides inertia, if the risk:reward ratio is not worth the downside, if solidified. They need the Alliance(s) much more than it needs them. And if they access they don't need it, and it also doesn't need them, at least not in formal alliance, maybe ad-hoc coalitions (precisely as per Saudi levels of ad-hoc coalitions and transient combat integration, rather than a specific formal alliance membership), then why continue with the arrangement as it is expressed today?

Of course that has to be a rational decision based around the balance of projected battle, deterrence and diplomatic leverage and outcomes within the various forms of regional conflict, if a transient or rolling change is to be made to the status.

What we have now in my honest (mere) opinion, is not that rational and isn't transparent, seems adrift in the inertia of (a now changed) old past arrangements.

Do you just pull the band-aid off fast or draw it out slowly - as at present? And will drawing it out slowly produce a reformed genuine 'ally', that you actually trust, and who's interests are best served via close and unwavering loyal alliances within NATO? Or will pulling the band-aid off fast, leaving them exposed, at risk, and at high cost, inducing many domestic defence and other issues for them do that better, and faster (if at all ... in either case)?

The questions for me are; is Turkey's having the F-35 worth the risk to the Alliance(s), their effectiveness and security and justifying continuing with status-quo?

If conditions change, do not and should not the plans change too?

At what point would it rationally be not worth the risk to continue with the enduring status-quo plans?

And Is it likewise rational to be considering a change, given the above and else since about Jan 2015?

If not, why? What conditions would trigger that change?

The fact it's being discussed so openly makes clear there's a serious problem here, contrary to the, "Nothing has changed in her foundations" type view.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 07:35
by mtrman
What kind of ignorant are you???

You write all your comments and lies WITHOUT TOUCHING THE TRIGGERING ISSUE:

mtrman wrote:...
It is unbelievable that you can mention such nonsense that Turkey will buy the F-35s and sell critical info to the Russians, etc. Are you a child? Yes, U.S. deep state is openly and blatantly betraying Turkey by openly and blatantly supporting a pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist group (YPG/PKK) which has been harming Turkey for more than 30 years. But even under this terrible circumstance, any of ranked officials or politicians in Turkey would do such a childish thing.
...


What kind of shameless are you who can still blame Turkey without TALKING ABOUT ABOVE MOST TRAGIC FACT???

And I am not even talking about FETO group, which openly tried a military coup, costed 250 lives and caused billions of dollars of economic loss just two years ago.

Any friend who wonders what YPG/PKK and FETO are can do a fast google search, or look at my previous posts in this thread...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 08:21
by nutshell
The only tragic fact the west wasting time with Turkey in 2018. <-

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 19:24
by bring_it_on
tincansailor wrote:Kill the F-35 sale to Turkey before the situation gets more out of control. This will damage NATO, and other allied countries national security on so many levels. Losing 116 F-35 sales is of no consequence, the market will only grow, and more then make up for the difference. Someone in charge has to start using some brains, and get a strategic sense. Can McMasters kill this deal on his way out of the White House?


Agreed! If a NATO member nation wants to, at this time of heightened security posture by the alliance, buy military equipment from a major NATO adversary that too via using state finance then they damn well should not be treated as a NATO ally. Turkey can go ahead and buy whatever they want from wherever they want, but it is high time the US and the west stops to pretend that Turkey is behaving like a NATO member. Kick them out of the JSF, let them sue and try to recover whatever money has been invested and let them park that money with Russia and become its client state. High time Turkey itself reconsiders its presence in NATO..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 19:45
by neptune
[quote="mtrman]

U.S. deep state is openly and blatantly betraying Turkey by openly and blatantly supporting a pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist group (YPG/PKK) which has been harming Turkey for more than 30 years.
[/quote]

.....@mtrman, you seem interested in Turkey, perhaps you can enlighten me with up to date Turkish NATO support activities and even their participation in the F-35 program, please.
Thanks in advance!
Neptune
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 21:05
by durahawk
mtrman wrote:What kind of ignorant are you???

You write all your comments and lies WITHOUT TOUCHING THE TRIGGERING ISSUE:

mtrman wrote:...
It is unbelievable that you can mention such nonsense that Turkey will buy the F-35s and sell critical info to the Russians, etc. Are you a child? Yes, U.S. deep state is openly and blatantly betraying Turkey by openly and blatantly supporting a pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist group (YPG/PKK) which has been harming Turkey for more than 30 years. But even under this terrible circumstance, any of ranked officials or politicians in Turkey would do such a childish thing.
...


What kind of shameless are you who can still blame Turkey without TALKING ABOUT ABOVE MOST TRAGIC FACT???

And I am not even talking about FETO group, which openly tried a military coup, costed 250 lives and caused billions of dollars of economic loss just two years ago.

Any friend who wonders what YPG/PKK and FETO are can do a fast google search, or look at my previous posts in this thread...

Triggered, indeed...

Look, I'm not interested in getting into the YPG/PKK can of worms with you (again), but suffice it to say it's a moot point since your own government acknowledges the Trump Administration has stopped arming the YPG:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42118567

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 22:56
by mtrman
@durehawk
That's why I try to select my words carefully. If you notice, I used the phrase of "US deep state". Why? Let me to tell you please:

As you gave the link, those news had spread fast. After giving THOUSANDS of TRUCKS of MODERN WEAPONARY to pure Marxist/Communist/Terrorist YPG/PYD/PKK, U.S. now seems to slow down the flow.

But in the last week, guess what happened, please. After completing the equipping phase, now an intense training phase begins by our ally (confirmed by CIA):
https://www.dailysabah.com/war-on-terro ... gular-army
http://www.arabnews.com/node/1223756/middle-east

I hope I could be able to tell you what kind of danger Turkey is facing and what we feel. Even the U.S. President can't stop this terrible tendency of directly harming and betraying Turkey...

@Neptune, I would be more than happy to give you any info as long as I have it (though I am not expert about politics nor history). But I think you can find much more info on google about the topics you have mentioned. Anyway, feel free to ask for anything, please, if you think I could help.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Jan 2018, 23:44
by nutshell
Dude i'm not even american.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 00:03
by mtrman
Okay Dude, does it matter?
In this thread the topic is F-35 and Turkey.

Some people (including you) "try to show" or "think" the source of problems in recent US-Turkey relations as Turkey. And I am trying to proof that it is not...

Among this people, I think there might be two groups:
- Objective people who are the victims of mass media like Fox, CNN, RT, etc.
- Shameless, ignorant ones who try to show white as black, because of their Turkish and/or Muslim hate.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 01:28
by blindpilot
mtrman wrote:...
Some people (including you) "try to show" or "think" the source of problems in recent US-Turkey relations as Turkey. And I am trying to proof that it is not...
...


1. I have no opinion as to whether we should or should not try and cancel the F-35 sales.
2. I am not presuming any political wisdom on what has happened or should happen historically or politically.
3. While I am familiar with people (US and Turk) who live in Turkey as a part of the bases and NATO activity there, my comments are not related in any way to that feedback.

mtrman you are full of sh##. I don't know whether it's an agenda or benign ignorance, but you are full of it.

I have friends who have lived in Turkey for over a decade. Civilian lives on regular streets. Some (American) have had to leave and return to the States, because spirits and tensions there make it unsafe for their children. For those who remain, I can't even tell you who they are because they risk arrest, imprisonment, or worse just if they are identified as friendly with some Americans.

No this is not about American presidents or Kurds in Syria. This is the culture that brought the current leadership to power in Turkey. There is an emerging Islamic/Caliphate type spirit that is eating away at Atatürk's secular constitution based Turkey. And that ... not the Kurds, not the US, not secret coup plotters, that scares the sh** out of plain old Turks in the street, who I know.

Scream your little narrative all you want, but it will not change the reports from those afraid to even identify themselves in a forum like this. Turkey is not a safe place these days for many there to live on the streets, without considerable caution.

That's the problem! Fact! The S-400 purchase is a symptom, not the disease.

FWIW
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 03:47
by madrat
@mtrman-
Wow, hurting Turkey for 30 years. Let's look at Turkey and it's past 600 years. But woah it's been counter-cultured for 30 years, which consequently is pure rubbish. Turkey today is the conduit of the Muslim invasion of Europe, a role unchanged for over six centuries. And the democratically elected government of Turkey is blatantly preaching intolerance of European Christian culture. So wipe away your crocodile tears and buzz off.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Jan 2018, 10:07
by loke
blindpilot wrote:

1. I have no opinion as to whether we should or should not try and cancel the F-35 sales.
2. I am not presuming any political wisdom on what has happened or should happen historically or politically.
3. While I am familiar with people (US and Turk) who live in Turkey as a part of the bases and NATO activity there, my comments are not related in any way to that feedback.

mtrman you are full of sh##. I don't know whether it's an agenda or benign ignorance, but you are full of it.

I have friends who have lived in Turkey for over a decade. Civilian lives on regular streets. Some (American) have had to leave and return to the States, because spirits and tensions there make it unsafe for their children. For those who remain, I can't even tell you who they are because they risk arrest, imprisonment, or worse just if they are identified as friendly with some Americans.

No this is not about American presidents or Kurds in Syria. This is the culture that brought the current leadership to power in Turkey. There is an emerging Islamic/Caliphate type spirit that is eating away at Atatürk's secular constitution based Turkey. And that ... not the Kurds, not the US, not secret coup plotters, that scares the sh** out of plain old Turks in the street, who I know.

Scream your little narrative all you want, but it will not change the reports from those afraid to even identify themselves in a forum like this. Turkey is not a safe place these days for many there to live on the streets, without considerable caution.

That's the problem! Fact! The S-400 purchase is a symptom, not the disease.

FWIW
BP

Excellent post!

I would like to add though that Turkey seems very polarized at the moment, there are many Turks who are still pro-west, and pro-NATO.

IF Turkey drops out of NATO and becomes a close ally with either Russia or China then I think that would be a very negative development for Europe, the US, but also for most people in Turkey, and the ME.

Until we reach a point of no return I suggest we should support the Turkish voices of reason as much as we can. They are struggling against dark forces in their country, and although they currently look weak I think there are quite still many of them. If they lose the fight against darkness then not just Turkey but also we in the West will suffer the consequenses.

I hope and pray it will never get to that point.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 03:36
by airforces_freak
Turkey is being misread by many in the Western world and this is the primary reason for the crisis of confidence between Turkey and Western Institutions.

First and foremost, Turkey is not BECOMING an Islamic Republic it ALWAYS was an Islamic Republic. An Islamic Republic which was Constitutionally Lacite/Secular but which also had Sunni Islam under Constitutional protection through the Diyanet/Presidency of Religious Affairs. The former is well known within Western circles but the later is always conveniently ignored.

Turkey's return to the Middle East is accordingly being misinterpreted by some within the West as a return to neo-Ottomanism. Yet modern Turkey has no imperial ambitions- imperial in the sense of regaining lost territories. Turkey is looking for spheres of influence and new markets. It no longer wants to rely on Western markets nor does it merely want to be blindly anchored to the West. As former PM Ahmet Davutoglu put it Turkey is seeking to create pax-Ottomana within former Ottoman territories. Just like the British have created the Commonwealth of Nations. A trading bloc that would increase trade amongst former Ottoman possessions.

The AKP is a Conservative Islamic Party ELECTED to office on numerous occasions by the Turkish people. It is akin to the Christian Democrats in Germany. It's primary objective during election campaigning was to improve Turkey's economy which it has already done and open up Turkey to the world through Turkey-centric foreign policy. Not be limited to Western markets. The Turkish people voted for this and the AKP is merely delivering.

The AKP's voter base was also fed up of being bullied around by the staunch leftists which banned the headscarf and curtailed the fundamental human rights of conservative Turks.

Now for those who think Turkey will become the new Iran. This is furthest from the truth and a narrative put forward by political opponents of the AKP to instil fear and mistrust.

Turkey is merely displaying a Turkey centric foreign policy. Its primary objective is Turkish interests and good relations with both East and West. US Policies in the Middle East has meant that Russia now rules this part of the world. Accordingly, Turkey is obliged to have some level of normality with Russia.

Now when we come to the JSF program I would like to draw your attention to a few points:

Turkey's S-400 acquisition is merely an excuse to exert pressure on Turkey and keep it anchored within the Western sphere. The US does not want Turkey to display a Turkey-centric foreign policy which has good relations with both East and West. Both NATO members Greece and Bulgaria have S-300's in their inventories. Although, they were not intentionally acquired (in Greece's case) and acquired prior to NATO membership in Bulgaria's case, 2 NATO members already operate Russia ABM systems.
Turkey is not a mere purchaser of the F-35 but a JSF consortium Member State whose industry has been heavily involved in all aspects of the program.
Turkey has already stated that it has many alternatives to the F-35 and that it will not acquire it at all costs: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/economy/tu ... ts-2818837
Turkey has also stated unequivocally that Turkey may remove US radars at Kurecik if its F-35s are not delivered on schedule. The US has an AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012 at Malatya- Kürecik, Turkey which keeps Iran and the region under a watchful eye: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turke ... le-2808663

Thus, the F-35 acquisition by Turkey will also determine its future in NATO and the Western sphere. Should the F-35 not be sold to Turkey this would only crystallise Turkey's pivot to the East.

Through Foreign Military Sales the US has SOME level of control over the arms it sells. If Turkey is pushed into Russia's lap for 5th Generation aircraft it will only mean that the US has ZERO control over Turkish air assets and a more independent Turkey. Policy makers in Washington are well aware of this and hence why the threat to not sell Turkey the F-35 has been rebuffed by the State Department and White House.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 Jan 2018, 04:22
by madrat
Considering the Sino influences over Turkey, the pivot East is inevitably going to happen regardless of the F-35 ultimatum. Best cut losses up front.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 01:46
by nutshell
It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 01:58
by optimist
It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..oh and those people from sh*tholes who aren't white. Why are we even talking to germany and japan, let along letting them have guns, don't you remember ww2 [/sarc]

it's not rocket science why the turks has gone russian sams, US dictates how a weapon of theirs can be used. There is a neighbour with western tech and US support, that doesn't play nice with others. If it were new zealand, I'd want aussies to have russian sams too.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 02:43
by steve2267
optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 02:45
by neptune
nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.


....you may wish to add Israel, with their operating F-35s!
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 02:49
by neptune
steve2267 wrote:
optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.


....all of us "others" are a distant #2 behind the Shias in Iran!
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 02:58
by element1loop
airforces_freak wrote: ... US Policies in the Middle East has meant that Russia now rules this part of the world. ...


Much overstated.

The Russians are providing support to their ally in Damascus to protect the Russian interests within a fractionated part of one ME state, and as per usual, selling missiles and air platforms to ME states.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 03:00
by steve2267
neptune wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.


....all of us "others" are a distant #2 behind the Shias in Iran!
:)


I'm having trouble keeping it all straight anymore. I know the Shias and the Sunnis are seemingly always at each others throats, but which one, or is it both, that can't play nice with the other children in the sandbox?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 04:48
by airforces_freak
nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.


Not quite.

No matter how much one wants to reduce the petro-wars to religion no one needs eyes to see that religion is the pretext under which one nation steals the natural resources of another nation.

Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.

Someone has been trying desperately to provoke a Christian vs Muslim war for quite sometime now and I am having trouble figuring out who it will benefit...the Jews, the Buddhists or some other group. Still cannot figure it out.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 04:57
by airforces_freak
A good read
Turkey Wants to Link Its F-35 Computer Brains to Networks That Will Include Russian Systems
Turkish and American authorities are both worried about military secrets leaking out, but for very different reasons.
BY JOSEPH TREVITHICKJANUARY 15, 2018
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... an-systems

The Turkish military says it wants to make sure there is a secure link between its future F-35 Joint Strike Fighters and the Turkish Air Force’s main computer networks that will prevent the inadvertent sharing of classified information. This comes as many of the countries involved in the international stealth fighter program increasingly worry about the security of the jet’s main data transfer setup and as the United States expresses concern about Turkey’s growing ties with Russia.

Earlier in January 2018, Turkey’s Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, the country’s top military procurement arm, also known by its Turkish acronym SSM, launched a competition to buy the necessary equipment and software to connect the F-35s to the rest of the Air Force’s systems, Defense News reported. SSM’s cybersecurity and electronic warfare division is in charge of the project and is asking for anyone interested in submitting a bid to do so by the end of February 2018.

“The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Forces’ information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” SSM said, according to Defense News. “The political idea is to earn as much indigenous software space as possible while at the same time remaining within the [JSF] program,” an anonymous source also told the outlet.


Though it’s not entirely clear from the report, the goal of the Turkish effort seems to be gain more control over what information goes into and comes out of its F-35s, improving its ability to share information across the country's air force. This is particularly important given the Joint Strike Fighter's sensors' ability to vacuum up important information, especially about electronic emitters such as enemy radars.

Being able to rapidly move that data around a variety of networks would give pilots in aircraft with less capable radars and other sensors a significantly improved view of the battlefield during missions, as well as allowing commanders to better plan future missions. Finding ways to link the F-35, especially using its stealthy Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL), to fourth generation aircraft has been a major goal for the U.S. military services flying the jets, as well. Joint Strike Fighters have coordinated with older planes using the non-stealthy Link-16 data link during past exercises.

There is also a concern that without a filter, the Joint Strike Fighter’s cloud-based computer brain, the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), might automatically send sensitive data to the United States or other partners in the program, or to the manufacturer Lockheed Martin. ALIS’s main job is to collect data on the jets’ figurative health, but monitoring information from various sensors about parts that are in need of routine maintenance or may be likely to fail for some other reason. Ground crews download these details from the aircraft via a secure laptop and then upload them into a larger system that, at least in theory, is supposed to help streamline the maintenance process and identify points of concern in need of improvement or upgrades in the future.

On top of that, though, it’s how Lockheed Martin plans to release software patches for the jets. Most importantly, the system acts as the load point for mission data packages, containing route plans, locations of potential threats and hazards, and other similar information.

Many of the countries involved in the Joint Strike Fighter Program are increasingly fearful that ALIS might be scraping information from those packages during uploading or downloading of other data and that it might end up on the system’s main servers or just be worryingly vulnerable to cyber attacks. Italy and Norway now have a shared software laboratory at the U.S. Air Force’s Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, which is working on a secure filter to prevent any unauthorized transfers. Australia has also expressed interest in its own such firewall.

There is also the possibility the United States could use ALIS in the future as an unprecedented export control. It could allow Lockheed Martin, at the direction of the U.S. government, to disconnect a country’s F-35s from vital updates and potentially disrupting the jets’ operational capabilities remotely, if necessary. American authorities might also be able to use the network as a vector for a cyber attack to more completely disable to the aircraft.

For Turkey, as with the other countries pursuing national-level solutions to these data sharing and sovereignty issues, the main problem is that they will all still have to use ALIS in the day-to-day operation of their F-35s. So far, only Israel has managed secure the rights from Lockheed Martin to install its own software on the jets that would allow it to operate independently of the company’s cloud-based network.

Some Joint Strike Fighter program members may be able to negotiate their own country-specific arrangements with Lockheed Martin with the U.S. government’s blessing. It seems very unlikely that either the Maryland-headquartered defense contractor or U.S. authorities would be willing to extend the same privileges to Turkey, at least in the near term.

Relations between Washington and Ankara have steadily cooled since 2014 in light of the U.S. military’s increasing support for Kurdish groups in Iraq and Syria in the fight against ISIS. Turkish authorities see the Kurdish People's Protection Units in Syria, also known by the acronym YPG, in particular as indistinct from the Kurdish Workers’ Party, or PKK, in Turkey.

Both the United States and Turkey have designated the PKK as a terrorist group. However, the U.S. government vehemently disagrees that the YPG and PKK are inseparably linked and that the former has plans to seize Turkish territory. The YPG form the core of the Syrian Democratic Forces, the main U.S.-backed force in Syria, which has been instrumental in routing ISIS.

Ties between the two countries only deteriorated more in 2016, when Air Force officers attempted to overthrow Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in a coup. Erdoğan and his political allies promptly launched a massive crackdown, arresting tens of thousands of people, and accused the United States of sheltering the man they allege to have been behind the putsch, Fethullah Gülen. It's worth noting that the U.S. military still keeps a stockpile of approximately 50 B61 nuclear gravity bombs at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, which has increasingly become a separate security issue.

But the series of events also led to warming ties between Turkey and Russia, though. In July 2017, Erdoğan confirmed his country would buy the Russian S-400 air defense system, prompting statements of concern both from the United States and the country’s other NATO allies.

With regards to the F-35, there is a distinct concern that Kremlin may be able to exploit the deal, which will reportedly involve some level of technical cooperation with Turkey’s defense industry, to see how its anti-aircraft system fares against the fifth generation fighter. Russia could then use that information to refine and expand its existing anti-stealth research and development work. There have been similar concerns about plans to add the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia to the Joint Strike Fighter program.

“We’re going to have to start looking at, if they are going to go through with this [S-400 purchase], how we can be interoperable in the future,” Heidi Grant, Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for International Affairs, told Defense News in November 2017. “But right now, I can tell you our policies do not allow us to be interoperable with that system.”

“It’s a significant concern, not only to the United States, because we need to protect this high end technology, fifth-generation technology … [but for] all of our partners and allies that have already purchased the F-35,” she added. Turkish officials have repeatedly said they have no plans to back out of the deal, unlike in 2015 when they cancelled a similar plan to buy Chinese FD-2000 air defense systems in the face of pressure from the United States and NATO.

There had already been some calls to block sales of the F-35 to Turkey in 2017 following a incident outside the Turkish embassy in Washington, in which Erdoğan’s personal security detail attacked Kurdish activists peacefully protesting, triggering a brawl and censure from city and U.S. federal authorities.

In July 2017, David Cicilline, a Democrat Representative from Rhode Island and a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, proposed an amendment in the Fiscal Year 2018 defense budget that would have halted the sale of Joint Strike Fighters to Turkey. This did not make it into the final version of the law.

Limiting Turkey’s access to the F-35 program may not be an easy prospect in the future, either, as a result of efforts to incentivize partners to join in the first place. Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is responsible for the construction of portions of the jet’s center fuselage and could service the aircraft’s Pratt and Whitney F135 engine for other NATO operators in the future. In total, 10 different Turkish firms have contributed in some fashion to the project.

Any restrictions of Turkish involvement in the program could therefore negatively affect both the construction of jets now and the ability for NATO allies to sustain their own F-35 fleets. At the same time, Turkey has been pursuing an indigenous fifth generation fighter jet, the TFX, in cooperation with BAE Systems in the United Kingdom.


As such, the Turkish government could conceivably threaten to back out of the Joint Strike Fighter program entirely, and focus on the TFX instead. Of course, this would significantly delay when Turkey’s Air Force would get its first fifth generation fighter jets, given the protracted and expensive development cycles for such aircraft. At present, TAI doesn’t expect to have a flyable prototype until at least 2023 and the quality and capabilities of that aircraft are still very much up in the air. It is doubtful that it will feature as advanced a capability set as the F-35 offers.

It would also squander significant existing Turkish investment in the program, including plans to buy at least 100 F-35As. There are also reports that the country’s military might be interested in purchasing a number of short and vertical take-off and landing capable B models. Lockheed Martin says Turkish defense contractors could expect to see a windfall of up to $12 billion from supporting the Joint Strike Fighter project, as well.

Though 2017, the U.S. military’s main F-35 Joint Program Office said it had no immediate plans to change its cooperation with Turkey, though they did say there were reviewing the issues at play. With the S-400 deal moving ahead and Turkey now pushing for greater control over how the jets will interact with its other information networks, there may be a greater impetus to study the implications of Turkish policies on the rest of the Joint Strike Fighter program.

How the situation plays out could be an important test case for how the F-35 project manages increasing concerns from partner nations about the heavily intertwined nature of both its computer networks and its physical industrial base.

Contact the author: jtrevithickpr@gmail.com

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:16
by white_lightning35
airforces_freak wrote:
Not quite.

No matter how much one wants to reduce the petro-wars to religion no one needs eyes to see that religion is the pretext under which one nation steals the natural resources of another nation.

Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.

Someone has been trying desperately to provoke a Christian vs Muslim war for quite sometime now and I am having trouble figuring out who it will benefit...the Jews, the Buddhists or some other group. Still cannot figure it out.


Hmm yes. Religion, which has been around far longer than the concept of a nation-state, is just used to steal things from other countries. I see.

"When has an Islamic republic invaded the US"?

When has an Islamic republic been capable of invading the U.S.? Hint: never. I'm sure an ant would eat me if it could, but they can't, so I point them out to my dog and he eats them as a protein supplement. Such is life.

I am so annoyed by those who think that those without the capability to influence things are somehow innocent and without fault. Is suriname truly full of amazingly wonderful people, or are they just not able to do something very important and bad?

"Some one has been desperately trying to provoke a Muslim vs Christian war"

Read the Quran and you might understand why there might be conflicts.

I personally don't believe Jews should be killed on sight, so I guess that makes me an enemy of Muhammad.

Perhaps we need to invent a better ant spray.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:31
by optimist
There are some nutter Muslims. The US has more trouble with nutter Christians at home. But remind me again who had a 500 year party in the ME? Some need to read the bible more, it's pretty vicious, Some may even think of the spanish for an example.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:41
by SpudmanWP
"party"?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:51
by optimist
Would "adventure and debauchery by fanatic Christians" be more appropriate?
http://www.ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c9.htm

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 05:56
by SpudmanWP
Ah, the Crusades... revenge is a bitch ain't it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 06:02
by optimist
so the muslims and christians had a squabble for a while about Jerusalem and now the jews have claimed it. revenge is a bitch ain't it

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 06:12
by SpudmanWP
Yup, Jews had it first :)

btw, the "Crusades" involved the entire med, France, Spain, Italy, etc. It was not just about the ME.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 07:18
by madrat
Let's not squabble over four crusades by Christians or 700+ Muslim invasions of Europe.

The thread is about behavior by Turkey's civil leaders today.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 07:34
by steve2267
airforces_freak wrote:
Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.



9/11/2001

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 07:37
by steve2267
airforces_freak wrote:A good read
Turkey Wants to Link Its F-35 Computer Brains to Networks That Will Include Russian Systems
Turkish and American authorities are both worried about military secrets leaking out, but for very different reasons.
BY JOSEPH TREVITHICKJANUARY 15, 2018
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... an-systems

... <snip> ...



Saw the article the other day. Rogoway has done so much damage to the brand of www.thedrive.com that I have really no idea if that article is any good or not. And frankly, because of him, I do not really care to spend the time to read it and decide for myself if the article is any good.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 11:05
by neptune
airforces_freak wrote:....(Israel) Wants to Link Its F-35 Computer Brains to Networks ...The ..(Israel) military says it wants to make sure there is a secure link between its future F-35 Joint Strike Fighters and the ..(Israel) Air Force’s main computer networks that will prevent the inadvertent sharing of classified information. ..

Earlier in January 2018, ..(Israel)... top military procurement arm, .., launched a competition to buy the necessary equipment and software to connect the F-35s to the rest of the Air Force’s systems, Defense News reported. ...(Israel) cybersecurity and electronic warfare division is in charge of the project and is asking for anyone interested in submitting a bid to do so by the end of February 2018.

“The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Forces’ information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” ..(Israel) said, according to Defense News. “The political idea is to earn as much indigenous software space as possible while at the same time remaining within the [JSF] program,” an anonymous source also told the outlet.....


"NOT FAKE NEWS"; simply making a point, that this issue has been dealt with by Israel (the possessor of operating F-35s) with much complaint by others and "APPEARS" to be resolved (by Washington's endorsment).

The genie is out of the bottle; the concept of the F-35 is now much discussed in public and the "magic juice" of how it is done is only the "current" way the technology is applied. Others will use their imagination to develop similar technology, now that it is shown "as possible".

However, Turkey (NATO) is not the only country that is interested in the purchase of the F-35; India also is pursuing?? the 5th Gen genie with Russia and with less success, it will eventually come calling on Washington to allow them to "offset" China with a similar program. Also, with the same issues; less these religious overtones.
:)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 11:12
by spazsinbad
'neptune' can you please explain: "...IMHO (I'm still not comfortable with the "one way" information exchange with Israel) this matter is settled by the fact of the Israeli program." What is this 'one way'? Can you describe it more please? Thanks.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 12:03
by neptune
spazsinbad wrote:'neptune' can you please explain: "...IMHO (I'm still not comfortable with the "one way" information exchange with Israel) this matter is settled by the fact of the Israeli program." What is this 'one way'? Can you describe it more please? Thanks.

....after reading my response for you, I didn't like the conjecture and concede this point and will edit that "out" of the reply. Thanks for the question!
:(

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 12:29
by airforces_freak
white_lightning35 wrote:
airforces_freak wrote:
Not quite.

No matter how much one wants to reduce the petro-wars to religion no one needs eyes to see that religion is the pretext under which one nation steals the natural resources of another nation.

Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.

Someone has been trying desperately to provoke a Christian vs Muslim war for quite sometime now and I am having trouble figuring out who it will benefit...the Jews, the Buddhists or some other group. Still cannot figure it out.


Hmm yes. Religion, which has been around far longer than the concept of a nation-state, is just used to steal things from other countries. I see.

"When has an Islamic republic invaded the US"?

When has an Islamic republic been capable of invading the U.S.? Hint: never. I'm sure an ant would eat me if it could, but they can't, so I point them out to my dog and he eats them as a protein supplement. Such is life.

I am so annoyed by those who think that those without the capability to influence things are somehow innocent and without fault. Is suriname truly full of amazingly wonderful people, or are they just not able to do something very important and bad?

"Some one has been desperately trying to provoke a Muslim vs Christian war"

Read the Quran and you might understand why there might be conflicts.

I personally don't believe Jews should be killed on sight, so I guess that makes me an enemy of Muhammad.

Perhaps we need to invent a better ant spray.


I have read the Koran and the Talmud and the Old Testament. It is however evident that you have not since you attributed to the Koran a verse which apparently mandates the killing of all Jews on sight. Perhaps you can cite the exact verse which you are alluding to. Because the last I checked Jews were "people of the book".

The Qur’an highlights the community of faith between followers of monotheistic religions (Jews, Christians and Muslims), and pays tribute to religious and moral virtues of communities that have received earlier revelations.

"There are indeed among the people of the Book some who believe in God and in what has been bestowed from on high upon you and in what has been bestowed upon them, humbling themselves before God. They do not barter away God’s revelations for a trifling price"- Aal-`Imran 3: 199. See other verses commending People of the Book in Al-Ma’idah 5: 82, 182.

Freedom of belief is also a basic Islamic principle in Islam: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith. The right way is henceforth distinct from error"- Al-Baqarah 2: 256

What SOME Muslims do and what Islam is are two different things.

There are also some horrific verses in the Talmud and Bible. Do we use a broad brush to label them?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 15:05
by botsing
Are you seriously quoting religious scripture in an attempt to defend the current affairs in Turkey?

Talk about shooting yourself in your foot, or actually in this case blowing your whole leg off.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 15:48
by white_lightning35
airforces_freak wrote:
I have read the Koran and the Talmud and the Old Testament. It is however evident that you have not since you attributed to the Koran a verse which apparently mandates the killing of all Jews on sight. Perhaps you can cite the exact verse which you are alluding to. Because the last I checked Jews were "people of the book".

The Qur’an highlights the community of faith between followers of monotheistic religions (Jews, Christians and Muslims), and pays tribute to religious and moral virtues of communities that have received earlier revelations.

"There are indeed among the people of the Book some who believe in God and in what has been bestowed from on high upon you and in what has been bestowed upon them, humbling themselves before God. They do not barter away God’s revelations for a trifling price"- Aal-`Imran 3: 199. See other verses commending People of the Book in Al-Ma’idah 5: 82, 182.

Freedom of belief is also a basic Islamic principle in Islam: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith. The right way is henceforth distinct from error"- Al-Baqarah 2: 256

What SOME Muslims do and what Islam is are two different things.

There are also some horrific verses in the Talmud and Bible. Do we use a broad brush to label them?


From Wikipedia:

The following hadith which forms a part of these Sahih Muslim hadiths has been quoted many times, and it became a part of the charter of Hamas.[79]


The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (the Boxthorn tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews. (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).Sahih Muslim, 41:6985, see also Sahih Muslim, 41:6981, Sahih Muslim, 41:6982, Sahih Muslim, 41:6983, Sahih Muslim, 41:6984, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:56:791,(Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:177)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 22:41
by USMilFan
There is also the possibility the United States could use ALIS in the future as an unprecedented export control. It could allow Lockheed Martin, at the direction of the U.S. government, to disconnect a country’s F-35s from vital updates and potentially disrupting the jets’ operational capabilities remotely, if necessary. American authorities might also be able to use the network as a vector for a cyber attack to more completely disable to the aircraft.

This part of the article is utter nonsense. The US is accused of much insanity and evil on an hourly basis around the world, but this one takes the cake. The US does not commit acts of war against countries interested in operating American-made weapons systems. I know this may be hard to believe in some places, but deliberately sabotaging our friends is contrary and self-defeating to our self-interests as well as those of our allies and partner countries. The US is not interested committing national suicide as the author of this article imagines. Such transparent anti-American propaganda is tiresome and just silly.

Let's take a break from such utter nonsense.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 22:44
by spazsinbad
Agree. There are several articles (probably in ALIS) in this forum that explain this stuff, but negative propaganda is fun.
:shock: :devil: WHERE IS THE F-35 REMOTE 'KILL SWITCH'!? :doh: :drool:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 09:24
by nutshell
I dont understand airforce dude.

I mean, why does it have to be a religion issue?
Why are you always trying to be the victim?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 10:23
by optimist
nutshell wrote:I dont understand airforce dude.

I mean, why does it have to be a religion issue?
Why are you always trying to be the victim?

Lets not bait and switch, it's unbecoming. Just remember what post started this off.

nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.
The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.
Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.
Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 11:51
by laos
There is a quote from famous XX century figure comrade Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov better known by the alias Lenin that describe the the sell of F-35 do Turkey -
„The capitalists will sell us the rope on which we will hang them”.

:D

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jan 2018, 19:37
by nutshell
optimist wrote:
nutshell wrote:I dont understand airforce dude.

I mean, why does it have to be a religion issue?
Why are you always trying to be the victim?

Lets not bait and switch, it's unbecoming. Just remember what post started this off.

nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.
The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.
Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.
Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.


Simple concept: West + Turkey = bad couple.

You dont f* play the victim card here. Not after tons of reply of various threats and retaliations against the west.

Easy, isnt it?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2018, 01:29
by element1loop
Maybe I should have emphasised more the need for any changes to be exclusively rationally examined, per the military alliance implications and ramifications?

Perhaps too hopey.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jan 2018, 23:27
by spazsinbad
4 Turkish firms bid for F-35, Air Force network-linking contract
23 Jan 2018 Burak Ege Bekdil

"ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey’s defense procurement agency has named four local bidders for a critical contract that aims to combine all information systems on the country’s planned F-35 Lightning II jets to the Turkish Air Force’s system network....

...Under the program, the successful contender will connect the information systems installed on the F-35 fighter aircraft with the Air Force’s information systems network, otherwise known as HvBS.

“The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Force’s information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” SSM said.

SSM’s department for cybersecurity and electronic warfare systems will be in charge of the program....

...Industry sources said the program to build critical links between the F-35 aircraft and Turkey’s combined Air Force command network probably won’t cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but it was tagged as “strategic” by the procurement authority.

But some foreign observers remain cautious. “Naturally there will be limits to the Turkish work as part of this program,” according to a London-based aerospace specialist. “The Turks may not be able to go as far as they wish to.”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... -contract/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 05:18
by spazsinbad
US diplomat threatens Turkey's F-35 role in S-400 spat
19 Apr 2018 Stephen Trimble

"A senior US diplomat has threatened to use the Lockheed Martin F-35 programme as a retaliatory tool against Turkey for acquiring a sophisticated air defence system from Russia. Assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs Wess Mitchell’s remarks during 18 April hearing in Congress escalated a simmering confrontation with a NATO ally and combat partner against ISIS, which agreed to acquire the Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf system even as it plans to take delivery of its first F-35A later this year.

Breaking from a string of ambiguous statements by the Trump Administration, Mitchell’s testimony made specific threats of potential retaliation if the Turkish government follows through on the acquisition of the S-400 system. “Ankara claims to have agreed to purchase the Russian S-400 missile system, which could potentially lead to sanctions under section 231 of [countering America’s adversaries through sanctions act] and adversely impact Turkey’s participation in the F-35 programme,” Mitchell says.

The S-400 is Russia's most advanced surface-to-air missile system on the export market. It's advertised with an "anti-stealth range" up to 81nm (150km).

In the past, US officials have complained that Turkey's S-400 systems would not be interoperable with NATO's networks. But the acquisition also raised concerns that Turkey's possession of the S-400 and the F-35 could be used to compromise the latter, with Russia and its allies gaining invaluable intelligence.

It was not clear specifically how Turkey’s role in the F-35 programme could be affected, but the Trump Administration has several tools at its disposal...." [not described]

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... sp-447859/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2018, 13:56
by mixelflick
We would be crazy to sell the F-35 to the Turks. Sorry, but that's just how it is...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 08:07
by old_rn
Why are not the Russians worrying about the west (via a NATO member, Turkey) gaining intel on their much vaunted S400?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 08:33
by spazsinbad
I give in. What goes on in Russia - in English - that we can know about? The PAK-FA is crap? DUH. Russia STRONK is all.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 17:04
by sferrin
old_rn wrote:Why are not the Russians worrying about the west (via a NATO member, Turkey) gaining intel on their much vaunted S400?



Who knows? Who cares?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2018, 21:52
by durahawk
old_rn wrote:Why are not the Russians worrying about the west (via a NATO member, Turkey) gaining intel on their much vaunted S400?


I think it's a safe assumption that the export version of the SA-21 is not identical in its full capabilities to its Russian domestic counterpart.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2018, 04:22
by popcorn
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1HX3NO

Three U.S. senators move to block F-35 transfers to Turkey

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Three U.S. senators introduced a measure on Thursday aimed at blocking the transfer of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to Turkey, a NATO ally and one of nine partner nations involved in producing the high-tech, radar-evading aircraft.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 04:35
by spazsinbad
US senators introduce bill to block F-35 delivery to Turkey
26 Apr 2018 Garrett Reim

"A bi-partisan group of US senators introduced a bill on 26 April to prevent the transfer of the Lockheed Martin F-35A to Turkey. The bill would also block Turkey’s role as a maintenance depot for the aircraft, according to a press release issued by the senators....

...Turkey, a NATO ally and partner in fighting ISIS, has ordered a total of 100 conventional take-off and landing F-35As. The first batch of 14 are already purchased, with deliveries scheduled to begin later this year. A total of 30 F-35As are scheduled for delivery to the Turkish Air Force by the end of 2022....

...The move by the senators comes one week after a senior US diplomat threatened to use the Lockheed Martin F-35 programme as a retaliatory tool against Turkey for acquiring a sophisticated air defence system from Russia, the Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf system. The S-400 is Russia's most advanced surface-to-air missile system on the export market. It's advertised with an "anti-stealth range" up to 81nm (150km)....

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-448084/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 Apr 2018, 10:01
by spazsinbad
One door doesn't close and another door does open - who'da thunk?
Mattis Seeks Waivers for US Allies, Partners to Buy Russian Arms
27 Apr 2018 Richard Sisk

"Defense Secretary Jim Mattis is arguing for waivers to let U.S. allies and partners avoid sanctions for buying Russian arms. The move could include giving Turkey and India a pass on the purchase of advanced S-400 anti-air defense systems.

At a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing Thursday, Mattis said "national security exceptions" must be made to the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) in the long-term interests of the U.S. "There are nations in the world who are trying to turn away from formerly Russian-sourced weapons and systems," he said.

Those same nations, he said, currently need to keep the Moscow supply line open to replenish their legacy systems. "We only need to look at India, Vietnam and some others to recognize that eventually we're going to penalize ourselves" in the future by strict adherence to CAATSA, Mattis said. He pointed to Indonesia, which has become increasingly vital to the Trump administration's overall South Asia strategy....

...Mattis called on Congress to include "national security exceptions" in the National Defense Authorization Act for fiscal 2019 but acknowledged that Russia's sale of the S-400 systems is "causing a lot of concern." Russian President Vladimir Putin was in Ankara earlier this month to firm up the proposed $3 billion sale of the S-400 systems, billed as "F-35 killers," to NATO ally Turkey.

The U.S. and NATO allies have warned Turkey that the S-400s are not compatible with other NATO systems, but Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has pressed on with the deal. Last week, State Department Assistant Secretary Wess Mitchell told the House Foreign Affairs Committee that Turkey is risking sanctions under CAATSA, adding that it could also be cut off from buying the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter...."

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... -arms.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 04 May 2018, 14:52
by markithere
Onenewsnow posted an article that shares information which should concern US interests.

https://onenewsnow.com/persecution/2018 ... -criminals

Article starts with:

After calling the European Union (EU) to prosecute critics of Islam as criminals, Turkey is no longer considered a moderate Muslim nation that embraces Western influences, but one that now wants Western nations to enforce its harsh Islamic law against “infidels.”

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 12:25
by loke
The legislation would also ask the Defense Department to provide Congress with a report on the relationship between the United States and Turkey, and would block the sale of major defense equipment until the report was complete.

Although Turkey is a NATO ally, relations between Ankara and Washington recently have deteriorated. Turkey supported the U.S. fight against Islamic State, but has become increasingly worried about U.S. backing for Kurdish fighters in Syria.

The NDAA is several steps from becoming law. The final version of the legislation will be a compromise reached later this year by House and Senate negotiators between separate versions of the bill approved in the two chambers.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1I52KW

What are the odds that "sale of major defense equipment" to Turkey will be blocked until the report is completed? Does this have to be turned into law first?

In any case Turkey has already responded:

Ankara: Turkey will retaliate if the US enacts a proposed law that would halt weapons sales to the country, foreign minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said on Sunday.

Lawmakers in the US House of Representatives released details on Friday of a $717 billion annual defence policy bill, including a measure to temporarily halt weapons sales to Turkey.

In an interview with broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said the measures in the bill were wrong, illogical and not fitting between the NATO allies.

“If the US imposes sanctions on us or takes such a step, Turkey will absolutely retaliate,” Cavusoglu said. “What needs to be done is the US needs to let go of this.”


https://thewire.in/world/turkey-says-it ... apon-sales

This does not look very promising to me.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 13:17
by loke
The 62-page indictment of U.S. pastor Andrew Brunson, who faces a possible life sentence in Turkey on charges of membership of banned terrorist organisations, such as the Gülen movement, accused of plotting the July 2016 coup - cites a video of a Middle Eastern dish which is popular among members of the movement, citizen times website reports.

‘’Maklube "is a dish cooked by members of the organization at meetings and religious gatherings at the FETÖ/PDY armed terrorist organization's cell houses," the article quotes the indictment as saying, while highlighting that a video on the rice and meat dish sent by Brunson’s daughter to him is actual evidence in Brunson’s indictment.

The same indictment also says all Christian churches in the U.S. are directed by an organization called CAMA, which includes the FBI and CIA as members, that Mormons make up nearly 40 percent of members of the United States' armed forces serving overseas, and that information someone gathered about gas stations in Turkey shows Brunson was involved in an effort to overthrow the Turkish government, according to the article.


https://ahvalnews.com/andrew-brunson/ev ... o-analysis

We live in interesting times.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 15:36
by white_lightning35
How long is it until erdogan gets the s#it bombed out of him? Goodness I hate the realities of geopolitics that will stop that from happening. Maybe he should receive the bin Laden drink: two shots and a splash of water.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 15:47
by steve2267
What happens if this whole geopolitical shotgun wedding goes sideways? Would the US be able to quickly, quietly, and safley remove all B61's and any other nukes? What if Erdogan says, no, you may NOT remove those from Turkey? Can they be destroyed in place? Is the B61 design robust enough that if they were to fall into enema (or unfriendly) hands, it could not be reverse engineered, or circumvented?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 May 2018, 21:40
by wrightwing
steve2267 wrote:What happens if this whole geopolitical shotgun wedding goes sideways? Would the US be able to quickly, quietly, and safley remove all B61's and any other nukes? What if Erdogan says, no, you may NOT remove those from Turkey? Can they be destroyed in place? Is the B61 design robust enough that if they were to fall into enema (or unfriendly) hands, it could not be reverse engineered, or circumvented?

I'm guessing they could be quietly loaded aboard aircraft, and flown somewhere else.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 May 2018, 17:27
by spazsinbad
Turkish F-35 sale could hit congressional roadblock
07 May 2018 Jeff Martin

VIDEO: https://dq0mmww6n9gqf.cloudfront.net/mc ... 0_1200.mp4 (6.25Mb)

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/video/defen ... roadblock/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 05:25
by spazsinbad
More 'tit for tat' yadda yadda yadda.... Shape Up or Ship Out from both sides. Who knew? Whats new? NADA - no change.
Turkey threatens US over bill seeking to halt weapons sales
09 May 2018 Burak Ege Bekdil

"...If passed as part of the National Defense Authorization Act, the U.S. Defense Department would have to provide Congress with a report on the relationship between the NATO allies. Sales of major defense equipment would be blocked until the report is completed.

One immediate casualty could be the U.S.-led, multinational Joint Strike Fighter program in which Turkey is a partner. Turkey has committed to acquire a batch of more than 100 F-35 fighter aircraft....

...“If passed the U.S. bill has the potential to altogether alter Turkey’s Western paradigm,” according to a presidential aide in Ankara. A senior procurement official said the bill would “kill all U.S.-Turkish procurement business in the several years ahead.” “The U.S. is no longer a sole-source supplier of the kind of equipment we buy from foreign suppliers. [buy crap then - wot me worry?] It won’t have the leverage our American friends hope it will,” the official said.

A senior Turkish diplomat said the bill would push Turkey further into the Russian orbit. “There is a lot we could jointly do with the Russians … from engine technologies to satellites,” he said...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... ons-sales/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 05:35
by spazsinbad
This all reminds me of the song 'I'm on a Mexican Radio' (what did he say?) "No comprende - its a riddle..." Wall of Voodoo.
Turkey to receive first F-35 fighter from US next month
09 May 2018 Uğur Ergan

"The United States will deliver the first F-35 joint strike fighter to Turkey on June 21 as part of a longstanding partnership between the two allies, despite attempts by the U.S. Congress to block the procurement of such weaponry to the Turkish government. According to defense industry authorities, the delivery of the first of the 30 F-35 fighters will be made on June 21 in a ceremony that will be held in the U.S....

...Pilots from the TSK [tsk tsk?] will receive intense training at the headquarters of the main producer of the F-35, Lockheed Martin, before the fighters will be transported to Turkey later this year, sources have said. Sources have also informed that arrangements are underway on military bases in Turkey where the F-35s will be deployed....

...Turkey has strongly criticized the U.S. Congress’ move and vowed to retaliate. “If they take such a step at a moment when we are trying to mend our bilateral ties, they will definitely get a response from Turkey. There is no longer the old Turkey,” Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu told private broadcaster CNN Türk in an interview on May 6."

Source: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... nth-131537


Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 06:45
by marauder2048
Hard to keep track of the various markups but:

F-35 sales to Turkey would not be through FMS. And the other
bill that I read only blocks the use of US funds to facilitate delivery
but very little in the way of US funds would be used anyway.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 22:54
by talkitron
The first Turkish F-35A is flying. See photos at the link below:

http://airwingspotter.com/1st-turkish-air-force-f-35a/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 02:19
by spazsinbad
First F-35 jet delivery to Turkey slated for June 21
11 May 2018 Sarp Ozer & Ahmet Sertan Usul

"Turkey will take its first delivery of U.S.-made F-35 warplanes on June 21, according to defense sources.

Two fighter pilots from the Turkish Air Forces are getting special training in the U.S., where the delivery of the first plane to Turkey is planned to be done with a ceremony, said the sources, who asked not to be named due to restrictions on speaking to the media. After the training is completed, and another warplane is delivered, the F-35 jets are planned to be brought to Turkey in September of 2019. The trained pilots will fly the two F-35s from the U.S., accompanied by a refueling plane.

In 2014 Turkey placed an order for the first two F-35 jets for the projected fleet of 100 F-35A aircraft and plans to deploy the aircraft by 2019. The F-35 jets are planned to be deployed at the 7th Main Jet Base Command in Turkey’s eastern Malatya province, where preparations have already begun to replace F-4 aircraft...."

Source: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/todays-headlin ... 21/1142561

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 15:43
by white_lightning35
Not to sound dramatic, but I don't think a lot of people realize how and this is and how bad it could be. I don't see why they would not save the Russians the trouble and just give them an f-35 directly.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 16:36
by sferrin
white_lightning35 wrote:Not to sound dramatic, but I don't think a lot of people realize how and this is and how bad it could be. I don't see why they would not save the Russians the trouble and just give them an f-35 directly.


No kidding. We already saw this play out with Iran and the F-14. Just how stupid are we? :doh: :doh: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 17:59
by durahawk
sferrin wrote:No kidding. We already saw this play out with Iran and the F-14. Just how stupid are we? :doh: :doh: :bang: :bang: :bang:


The Shah actually liked the United States when they received their first Tomcat. They same could not be said of Erdoğan.

This is even worse.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 03:37
by jakobs
tcu wrote:Dear Gentlemen, can't really believe those posts. How you easily become victims of CNN, Fox, etc...

Turkey is one of the first partners of the program, a long long years member of NATO, was ally of west against Soviet Communism, and many more.

Even though Turkey has been indirectly attacked and betrayed by US and European politicians for the last few years (via YPG/PKK and FETO), it has nothing to do with some childish scenarios such as we will handle F-35 to China, etc... I can't find a word to describe those Turkish/Muslim haters who can argue such nonsense as a black propaganda...

If you wonder the source of the problems in the recent years between Turkey and US, it is another topic, I can tell you much more than you really want. For example, you can start by asking your politicians why US had been rejecting selling Turkey the Patriot ADS a few years ago. But now, they are coming Ankara to offer Patriot just to cancel S400 deal. How funny that many people are talking about Turkey's defensive measures, but not talking what are causing them...

As I said, the problems and their sources is a different story. But you know very well that the above scenarios are just childish and baseless...


Never go full retard!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 04:08
by Corsair1963
Turkey keeps escalating the rhetoric by the day. Yet, her logic in doing so escapes me??? :?



Hell, this could be easily defused by Turkey with a few choice words. Yet, instead she keep fueling the flames! :bang:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 09:27
by Corsair1963
tcu wrote:
jakobs wrote:
tcu wrote:Dear Gentlemen, can't really believe those posts. How you easily become victims of CNN, Fox, etc...

Turkey is one of the first partners of the program, a long long years member of NATO, was ally of west against Soviet Communism, and many more.

Even though Turkey has been indirectly attacked and betrayed by US and European politicians for the last few years (via YPG/PKK and FETO), it has nothing to do with some childish scenarios such as we will handle F-35 to China, etc... I can't find a word to describe those Turkish/Muslim haters who can argue such nonsense as a black propaganda...

If you wonder the source of the problems in the recent years between Turkey and US, it is another topic, I can tell you much more than you really want. For example, you can start by asking your politicians why US had been rejecting selling Turkey the Patriot ADS a few years ago. But now, they are coming Ankara to offer Patriot just to cancel S400 deal. How funny that many people are talking about Turkey's defensive measures, but not talking what are causing them...

As I said, the problems and their sources is a different story. But you know very well that the above scenarios are just childish and baseless...


Never go full retard!


Man, is this a logical answer to this post? Don't talk about YPG/PKK, don't talk about FETO, don't talk about refused sell of Patriot, but, talk about blaming Turkey for high tensions and Turkey's defensive measures. Good good...

No problem about Turkey, or delivery of her F-35s. The problem is about US politicians' attitude against her ally...



Sorry, NATO was formed to counter Russia (i.e. former Soviet Union) not buy Weapons from them. In addition to add insult to injury Russia has been acting very badly over the last few years. Like invading Georgia and Ukraine and stirring up trouble in Syria! Honestly, I was very supportive of Turkey getting the F-35. As I was sure this was just one big misunderstanding. Yet, like many in the "West" I am getting very very tired of the threats!

Turkey would be making a colossal mistake! If, she forces a break with Europe and the US. Yet, the reverse can't be said....So, go ahead she can shoot herself in the foot. Yet, she shouldn't complain when she has to have her foot amputated!

Her whole Military is built on Western Weapons Systems. What is she going to turn to Russia for help when this all blows up in her face???

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 13:14
by loke
Turkey indirectly contributed to the growth of IS and other extremist organizations for a long time -- focusing only on the Kurds and getting rid of Assad.

Big mistake.

The US had no alternative but working with YPG to handle IS. Turkey carry part of the blame for that.

Did the US really stop sales of Patriot in the past? I strongly doubt that! AFAIK it was Turkey who decided not to buy Patriot and very provocatively decided for S-400 instead.

Turkey currently hold US citizens as hostages. This is unprecedented and a very hostile action against a key NATO ally.

They previously held also Germans as hostages but I believe those have all been released now? What about France, are there currently any French hostages in Turkish prisons?

Turkey is also ignoring basic rights like freedom of expression, democratic rights, etc. Important values that NATO members are expected to share.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 15:29
by botsing
tcu is probably a new account of banned user mtrmen. This user was spamming the same polarized messages over and over again, just like tcu is doing now:

mtrmen wrote:Here we go again...

1) It is so childish to claim such nonsense theories. And yes, your puppet FETO false soldiers would do such treachery when ordered just to harm Turkey. But sorry, they are kicked out from the army and can't help you...

2) Perhaps the U.S. should be booted out of the F-35 program for openly supporting and arming FULL MARXIST/COMMUNIST/TERRORIST group of PKK/YPG which has been harming Turkey for 30 years. But, sorry. I forgot that U.S. is the super power and so strong that your some Muslim/Turkish hatred generals and politicians CAN DO ANY STUPID THING they want, but can not be criticised...


The moderators have been informed.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 10:51
by marsavian
By the creation and employment of this terrible terror gang, Marxist YPG/PKK, Shia Iran, Assad, Russia and US benefitted... Turkey and sunni muslims suffered


No, Turkey benefited in its long term trans-national persecution of Kurds. If stood by on the border smiling and stationary as Isis butchered northern Kurdish towns. It also bought Isis oil and let Isis foreign fighters enter through Turkey. The recent military incursion into north Syria under the false pretext of anti-terrorism was just an excuse for a land grab for its ethnic Syrian Turkmen to displace Kurds. Notice it has not handed the land back to the government of Syria. It is now a Turkish protectorate in all but name.

Turkey should be removed from NATO and treated as a hostile Islamic nationalist state like Iran because it has no place in modern Europe under militant Sultan Erdogan. The days of a modern looking secular Turkish state as created by Attaturk are over replaced by an aggressive Ottoman Sultanate part 2.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 12:56
by madrat
It's almost like bigotry has been adopted to deal with Erdogan's opponents...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2018, 15:33
by spazsinbad
Should U.S. Block F-35 Deliveries To Turkey?
15 May 2018 Lara Seligman & Jen DiMascio

"In 2019, [at least one F-35A is being handed over SOON] Turkey is scheduled to receive two major new pieces of military equipment: the U.S.-made F-35 stealthy fifth-generation fighter and the Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile system....

...One bipartisan group of senators is moving to block the transfer of Lockheed Martin F-35s to Turkey, even as Lockheed prepares to deliver the first Turkish aircraft to Luke AFB, Arizona. [Stairway to Heaven: "sometimes words have two meanings"] And a contingent of House lawmakers is considering a provision in a fiscal 2019 defense policy bill that would stop short of restricting F-35 deliveries but could impede shipments of other U.S. exports there....

...The U.S. has long tried to sell Turkey air and missile defense systems such as Raytheon’s Patriot. But Ankara ultimately opted for the Almaz Central Design Bureau’s S-400 in a $2.5 billion deal. The systems were originally scheduled for delivery in 2020, but that date has since been accelerated....

...Because the sale is not by the U.S. government but by the international F-35 consortium, Congress does not have the legal authority to block it. Ankara is a development partner on the program and plans to purchase 100 F-35As in total, the first of which will soon be delivered to Luke AFB. Given the limitations, lawmakers appear to have realized the best approach to preventing Ankara from receiving the Joint Strike Fighter is to eliminate funds for the planned transfer of the jets from Luke to Turkey in 2019...." [then there is a lot of laDeDah so go read it yourselves - I'm too tired at 0030]

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/should- ... ies-turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2018, 14:19
by mixelflick
I would never sell the F-35 to a country that had a coup attempt in its recent past.

The whole situation just feels like its 1979's Iran again. The Tomcats secrets were stolen, and I don't care what anyone says - they showed up in the form of the Mig-31's AA-9 Amos...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 01:40
by nutshell
So we've a muslim country ,in its way to became a caliphate of some sort, that is blatantly anti-west (they have their reasons, yet idc and idgaf) in line to join the EU, stay in NATO and get the best fighter out there.

I wonder, what could possibly go wrong, right?

The day Erdogan backstabs the west by attacking the Greece (our us, who knows), i hope all the JSF companies CEOs will be there, fighting in the ground, repelling the attacks. Together with all their family members.

Hope Karma do its bitchy things and strike those greedy SoBs hard in their wallets.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 02:00
by steve2267
nutshell wrote:Hope Karma do its bitchy things and strike those greedy SoBs hard in their wallets.


I think that is a little harsh. Yeah, they want to sell planes and make $$. That is the way of capitalism, and what made the West so strong economically (as well as in other areas). But they have a business obligation -- contracts have been signed. IMO, the responsibility goes as much, if not more so, to the F-35 JPO, than to the commercial companies producing the F-35.

Ten, twenty years ago... who would foresee Turkey swing so hard towards Islamic fundamentalism and everything that entails?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 04:15
by madrat
Turkey has always been swung that way. Hello Ottoman Empire.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 06:40
by Corsair1963
Honestly, this deal with Turkey is blown well out of proportion.....Mark my words it will all settle down and she will get the F-35. (and everything else)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 07:53
by loke
I think the West should draw some very red lines for Turkey and make it clear that those must not be crossed.

Many people would argue red lines have been crossed already.

Keeping US, German, Greek citizens as hostages. check.
Supporting islamists in Syria, Egypt, and terrorists on the Gaza strip and elsewhere. check.
Order S-400 from Russia. Check.
Suppress freedom of speech. Check.
Limit democracy in Turkey. Check.
Discriminate Christianity and other non-muslim religions in Turkey. Check.

Erdogan and his cronies are hypocrites: They blame the US and Israel for "terrorism" and "supporting terrorists" whereas, at least in my opinion, what they are doing themselves is much worse. They blame the West for discriminating against muslims, whereas in reality muslims are pretty well protected in both the US and EU. At the same time this is what happens to Christians in Turkey:

In its 2017 report on human rights violations, Turkey's Association of Protestant Churches details Turkey's systematic discrimination against its Protestant community, listing the hate crimes as well as verbal and physical attacks against Protestant Christians.

The Turkish government doesn't even recognize the Protestant community as a "legal entity," denying them the right to freely establish and maintain places of worship. Since their meeting places are not officially recognized as places of worship, they are often targeted and closed.

On September 5, for example, the Izmir Cigli Church was closed and sealed in response to negative press coverage concerning the church. Its sign, deemed offensive because it contained the word "church," was removed.

Turkey's Protestant community also faces discrimination in the training of their religious leaders. Current law prohibits the opening of religious training schools. Hence, the Protestant community relies on support of foreign church leaders.
However, the report notes that several foreign religious workers and church members were deported, denied entry into Turkey, refused residence permits, or denied entry visas last year.

Another serious problem is workplace discrimination. "Some Protestant community members who work as public officials in Izmir, Istanbul and Diyarbakir were told that because they were Christians and missionaries, their work contracts would not be renewed."

On 18 April 2007, three Christian employees of the Zirve Bible Publishing House in Malatya were tortured and murdered by five Muslim assailants – a horrific crime which still haunts many Christians in Turkey. Some local media outlets had targeted Christians before the massacre. And it appears that many outlets in Turkey are still complicit in attacks against churches and churchgoers.

There has been a spike in negative local press coverage against churches and their members, similar to the news reports preceding the 2007 Zirve Publishing House massacre. "These new publications have created serious concern and apprehension among the churches," according to the report.

Ironically, "Turkey used to be called Anatolia or Asia Minor and was a Christian civilization," writes Dr. Bill Warner. "Today Turkey is over 95% Muslim. North Africa, Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon used to be Christian. Afghanistan was Buddhist; Pakistan and Malaysia used to be Hindu. Today they are more than 95% Muslim. Islam does not reach a balance point with the native civilization; it dominates and annihilates the indigenous culture over time."


https://www.christianpost.com/voice/tur ... unity.html

Turkish hostage-taking has become one of the most pressing problems in relations between Ankara and its Western allies. It is something that everyone knows is happening, but political leaders and diplomats are reluctant to call it by its name.
The most recent case concerns German-Turkish journalist Deniz Yucel, who was arrested in Turkey in February 2017 on accusations of propaganda for a terrorist organization. Yucel, a correspondent for Die Welt known for his journalism about Turkey’s crackdown, had written articles based on the hacked emails of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s son-in-law, Energy Minister Berat Albayrak.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/02/tur ... ge-taking/

Perhaps the F-35 deal and other deals should be put on hold until it becomes more clear exactly where Turkey is heading, and what their intentions are. From where I am standing it does not look very good right now.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2018, 06:11
by blindpilot
Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, this deal with Turkey is blown well out of proportion.....Mark my words it will all settle down and she will get the F-35. (and everything else)


Well. Watching the Turkish economy and balloon about to burst...
Assuming he can get reelected, he may have to cut back how many F-35s he buys anyway. And about all those ships ...

https://www.independentrecorder.com/tur ... 05207.html

At 500M lira(T) that's a 25% increase in price, over just the last year or so, and it's getting worse. Down to 80 aircraft instead of 100 and falling fast ... Wonder what the inflation is doing for the voter on the street buying bread ... He should have moved the election up sooner ... not going to dodge the bullet ...

FWIW,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2018, 15:17
by marsavian
Secretary of State Pompeo said at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee "IT IS STILL VERY MUCH A LIVE ISSUE, THE TURKS CAPACITY TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE F-35."

01:17:10
https://www.c-span.org/video/?445766-1/ ... start=4626

The Turks seem to think he can't unilaterally stop deliveries now.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2018 ... -to-turkey

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2018, 22:07
by archeman
blindpilot wrote:
Well. Watching the Turkish economy and balloon about to burst...
Assuming he can get reelected, he may have to cut back how many F-35s he buys anyway. And about all those ships ...

https://www.independentrecorder.com/tur ... 05207.html

At 500M lira(T) that's a 25% increase in price, over just the last year or so, and it's getting worse. Down to 80 aircraft instead of 100 and falling fast ... Wonder what the inflation is doing for the voter on the street buying bread ... He should have moved the election up sooner ... not going to dodge the bullet ...

FWIW,
BP


Well.... 80 is less than 100, but ---> They only need ONE to get to the secret sauce.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2018, 22:49
by bigjku
marsavian wrote:Secretary of State Pompeo said at the Senate Foreign Relations Committee "IT IS STILL VERY MUCH A LIVE ISSUE, THE TURKS CAPACITY TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE F-35."

01:17:10
https://www.c-span.org/video/?445766-1/ ... start=4626

The Turks seem to think he can't unilaterally stop deliveries now.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2018 ... -to-turkey


The US is paying for the vast majority of it. Whatever the contract says the US can effectively do whatever the hell it wants with the plane. Turkey can complain or sue I suppose.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 May 2018, 23:23
by marsavian
LMT will follow whatever the US government decide. It's a big step to deny Turkey the F-35 but unfortunately their very rude insulting grandstanding has left them in this precarious situation. Only the fact that they are a member of NATO saved them from a severe military response when they shot down that Russian Su-24 Fencer. Even then the severe economic response from Russia cured them of their bad manners towards them. Now they are carrying on this rudeness with all their NATO allies just because we don't quite agree with their military postures to their Kurdish neighbors in other countries and Greece and Cyprus nevermind this new form of autocratic Islamic leadership they now have that squashes political dissent.They look more like Iran every day unfortunately.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2018, 05:49
by spazsinbad
Turkey threatens retaliation if new bill stops F-35 sale [BEST READ ALL at SOURCE]
25 May 2018 Joe Gould

"WASHINGTON — The Turkish government has vowed reprisals if the U.S. Congress passes a defense policy bill that prevents the sale of Lockheed Martin-made F-35 fighter jets to Ankara. The Senate Armed Services Committee on Thursday passed its version of the $716 billion National Defense Authorization Act with language that directs the Pentagon to submit a plan to Congress to remove the NATO ally from participation in the F-35 program.

“According to agreement, everybody has a mission and we expect everyone to fulfill these missions,” said Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman Hami Aksoy, Ahval reports. “Such steps are breach of the spirit of our alliance with the U.S. As our minister stated, if such steps are taken, we will have no other choice but to respond accordingly.”

Turkish Foreign Affairs Minister Mevlüt Cavuşoğlu said earlier this month the country would retaliate, after the House version of the NDAA was unveiled. That bill contains a broader prohibition on any foreign military sales to Turkey until the Pentagon reports to Congress on the impact of U.S.-Turkey tensions....

...“There is tremendous hesitancy [about] transferring sensitive F-35 planes and technology to a nation who has purchased a Russian air defense system designed to shoot these very planes down,” Shaheen [Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, D-N.H.] said in a statement. “This amendment is meant to give the Departments of State and Defense the guidance and congressional support they need to ensure that this does not happen at this time.”...

...Secretary of State Mike Pompeo testified Thursday on Capitol Hill that he had spoken with Cavuşoğlu in recent days to push for Brunson’s return and implore Ankara not to buy the S-400. Turkey’s capacity to access the F-35, he said, “is still very much a live issue.”

U.S. Ambassador to NATO Kay Bailey Hutchison called the purchase “very serious” at a public forum on Wednesday. “They’re a very important partner,” she said of Turkey. “But no partner in NATO has ever purchased a Russian system that is not capable of being interoperable with our NATO systems.”"

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... f-35-sale/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 00:12
by zerion
Israel Concerned About F-35 Sale to Turkey, Expects U.S. to Withhold 'Upgrades

Israeli officials are concerned about a deal to provide F-35 stealth fighter jets to Turkey, and the issue is currently being discussed with the United States. A senior Israeli defense official says Israel would like to remain the only country in the Middle East with the F-35 in order to keep its military qualitative edge and out of fear that details about its capabilities would leak to neighboring countries...

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.6119034

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 08:59
by spazsinbad
Who is going to take this seriously - war/conflict with words only always fun. Operative word MAY yep merry month of.
:devil: BEWARE THE IDEAS of MAY! :doh:
Yeni Safak: Turkey may switch to Su-57
28 May 2018 Alert5

"Turkish newspaper Yeni Safak says Ankara may switch to buying the Russian Su-57 if Washington decides to suspend the delivery of F-35."

I'll only post Alert5 English and let someone else translate the Turkish link:
https://www.yenisafak.com/gundem/s-400d ... ri-3344132

Source: http://alert5.com/2018/05/28/yeni-safak ... -to-su-57/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 10:41
by loke
IF sales of F-35 to Turkey is stopped, then I would actually not be surprised to see Turkey purchasing a few Su-57... After all they are in the process of buying S-400 SAMs from Russia, in spite of several warnings from the US and other allies.

However some positive things have happened recently, seems they reached agreement on Manbij:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-tur ... map-132415

If Turkey could also free Mr. Brunson, and cancel the S-400 purchase then we would definitely be back on track!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 11:00
by loke
Although the Manbij deal is positive, there are other signs of tensions between Turkey and the US: Iran!

Turkey is an unlikely regional partner for the United States as it bids to contain Iran, experts and observers told Ahval, as the latest policy shift under the Trump administration drops the Iran nuclear deal and adopts a more anti-Iranian policy.

Turkish officials and businessmen have been involved in sanction-breaking deals with Iran in the recent past. Turkey has also moved close to Iran as the two countries, along with Russia, co-operate in efforts to solve the ongoing Syrian conflict, holding peace talks in Astana that undermine Western-backed peace talks in Geneva.

On the other hand, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, announcing his new Iran strategy on 21 May said, “We will track down Iranian operatives and their Hizballah proxies operating around the world and we will crush them. Iran will never again have carte blanche to dominate the Middle East.”

The Trump administration, known as one of the most anti-Iran administrations in recent decades, is now joined by Mike Pompeo, who has already threatened Iranian proxies in the region. His approach to Turkish affairs, remains unclear, though when it became clear Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan had overcame the coup attempt of July 2016, Pompeo took to twitter accusing Erdoğan of turning Turkey into an Islamist dictatorship.

“I don’t believe that Pompeo has any illusions about Erdogan,” Jonathan Schanzer, Vice President of research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a Washington think tank, told Ahval.

“I have yet to see a statement from the new Secretary of State about Turkey and its foreign policy,” Schanzer continued. “My hope is that he takes a tougher stance, and makes demands of Ankara to return to the NATO fold. Without a clear message along these lines, we are almost certain to see Turkey drift further from Washington and the rest of the West."

https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/turkey- ... n-strategy

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 May 2018, 17:07
by blindpilot
loke wrote:...
“I don’t believe that Pompeo has any illusions about Erdogan,” Jonathan Schanzer, Vice President of research at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a Washington think tank, told Ahval.

“I have yet to see a statement from the new Secretary of State about Turkey and its foreign policy,” Schanzer continued. “My hope is that he takes a tougher stance, and makes demands of Ankara to return to the NATO fold. Without a clear message along these lines, we are almost certain to see Turkey drift further from Washington and the rest of the West."



Sometimes it's not inspired diplomatic maneuvering to some desired result. Rather it is aligning diplomatic policy with reality, such that the best result based in that reality is achieved.

In this case, if the controlling forces/people of Turkey want to return to Ataturk's vision, then the US/NATO needs to encourage/enable that to unfold. If they desire to return to Ottoman Glory, then once again history will repeat itself, and Russia will chew them up and spit them out, enslave the deluded Ottoman's.

Until the answer to "what is real," is known I'd be cautious what we sell them. If they want Russian slavery, it may just be better to cut bait now, feed them to the Russians, and let both countries wrestle in the swamp and mud of that reality.

If that is what is "real" then it would probably be best they didn't have latest block squadrons of F-35 ... at least not without an ALIS off switch. I'd probably start a rumor that there was such a switch, and/or that there was a "specific frequency radar echo strip, designed by Israeli Mossad" embedded in the wings of Turkey's air frames, just to put a nagging doubt in their minds, and trigger them to cancel the orders. Doesn't matter whether it was true in that case. It would remind them, who built the design... wrote the software ... and it wasn't them... Time to kick the little tin horn "Sultan's" backside. There are still Turks who long for Ataturk's noble vision. I hope we begin to see them emerge in the next election .. but honestly, my friends who left Turkey recently, are not encouraged.

MHO anyway,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2018, 13:01
by mixelflick
If Israel wants Turkey's F-35's blocked, it WILL happen.

And sure, let them have the SU-57. They'll probably get a dozen.... in 2025. Here's an idea: Do they have the kind of $ needed to partner with Russia in developing it? If so, they'll probably find out what the Indians did. Or, in another 10 years it'll be a lot better. It's a safe bet though that in 10 years it'll be a lot more expensive too..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 May 2018, 13:57
by vilters
As long as Turkey stays under Islamic dictatorship, there won't be any F-35.

Simple
Effective
Everybody happy

They might buy F-57?
Great what does scrap aluminium cost these days?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 11:28
by spazsinbad
US in Talks with Turkey on Purchase of Russian S-400, Wilson Says
29 May 2018 STEVE HIRSCH​

"​The Trump Administration is negotiating with Turkey over the plan by that country, a NATO member, to buy the S-400 missile system from Russia, Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said Tuesday.

Army Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti, head of US European Command and Supreme Allied Commander Europe, told members of the Senate Armed Services Committee in March that while Turkey had announced plans to buy the system, there was still time to convince Turkish leaders a better system was available.

Taking questions during a presentation at the Atlantic Council in Washington, D.C., Wilson did not provide details of current bilateral talks led by Defense and State Department officials on the issue, but said the move “does present some operational problems that we’re discussing with Turkey … particularly as it relates to the location of advanced aircraft in Turkey,” including US-made aircraft such as the F-35.

“We would not want to have that aircraft close to the S-400,” she said. “Those discussions are going on with Turkey, and I think that we are hopeful that that can be resolved before they would take delivery of that aircraft into Turkey itself,” she said...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... -Says.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 12:35
by loke
loke wrote:However some positive things have happened recently, seems they reached agreement on Manbij:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-tur ... map-132415


Interestingly, the US denies that an agreement has been reached on Manbij:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/us-say ... yet-132564

Turchia quo vadis?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 16:42
by durahawk
mixelflick wrote:If Israel wants Turkey's F-35's blocked, it WILL happen.


... under what precedent exactly? Isreal did not want the Saudis to get the Eagle either. Didn't stop the show there.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 16:52
by geokav

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 19:26
by tsl256
geokav wrote:MiG-35 maybe...?


<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1000984876059906048</span>


If the SU-57 is denied to Turkey, then they will most likely go for the J-31, which will likely be combat ready before the SU-57.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 May 2018, 19:41
by durahawk
tsl256 wrote:
geokav wrote:MiG-35 maybe...?


<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1000984876059906048</span>


If the SU-57 is denied to Turkey, then they will most likely go for the J-31, which will likely be combat ready before the SU-57.


All the Erdoganistas on this forum keep touting the EJ200 powered TFX as an F-35 slayer anyhow. Why not just let them pursue that.

Not to worry though,Turkey will get the F-35... If there is one thing US Congress has a firm crasp on, it's incompetence.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 13:46
by mixelflick
durahawk wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If Israel wants Turkey's F-35's blocked, it WILL happen.


... under what precedent exactly? Israel did not want the Saudis to get the Eagle either. Didn't stop the show there.


The pro-Israel lobby in the US isn't exactly a secret. Big money and big politics will block that sale. RSAF F-15's are going to show up on Israeli radar like flying CVN's. 100 F-35's pointed their way is quite another matter. Forget 100, if only 1 F-35 falls into the wrong hands, it threatens to undermine their entire fleet.

The decade long qualitative edge they maintain will be erased - instantly.

They will not stand for it..

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 17:24
by blindpilot
mixelflick wrote:...
The decade long qualitative edge they maintain will be erased - instantly.

They will not stand for it..

It's a little more complex than that.

First, when Iran ended up with the F-14 (which btw I dragged over there), it was a problem for us that a hostile regime had the tech. That's true. But the effectiveness of the fleet was hampered by killing the support (maintenance etc.) chain. This despite some creative back channel smuggling and Iran/Contra et al. They have/had F-14 'minus' versions, and had to use them very carefully, even in the Iraq war. With a complex aircraft like the F-35 this is even more of a problem.

Second, the advantages of the F-35 are more fragile than flying A-37's out of S. Vietnam. The manufacturing tolerances, materials, supplies, stealth testing, etc. cannot be "stolen." The infrastructure and environment have to be created. Ask the Japanese, that's easier said than done, and they (the Japanese) could do it. The Turks/Russians, if managed, would struggle to even keep the stealth repair/maintenance up or the software environment. Without these the F-35 ends up being a good F-16V/F-18E in quick order.

Third, those things said, Turkey is two communities tearing itself apart. The Ataturk community is quite talented with world class capabilities, but will they be available for the Islamic Sultanate to use? Turkey has a problem today because they don't have near enough fighter pilots available. All of them are in prison. This reality could ground the entire Turkish Air Force if things turn sour. Islamic fanatics make lousy pilots. "Allah Akbar!" doesn't fly fighter jets. I know. I saw Iranian/Arabian students crashing T-38's that "Allah was flying." But if they let pilots out of prison, a whole new sticky wicket of coup paranoia emerges again.

Things are much messier than qualitative edges" instantly being anything. Is Israel watching closely? No doubt, but let's not overstate what happens instantly.

MHO,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 May 2018, 18:36
by sferrin
Turkey using the jet in ways we wouldn't want is but a microscopic part of the issue. The MUCH larger issue is all of it's technology and specifics flowing directly to Russia and China, helping them both defend against US stealth and improving their own stealth.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 08:28
by loke
The Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), a Washington think tank, has issued a new report on Western nationals' long months of imprisonment in Turkish jails entitled 'Erdoğan's Hostage Diplomacy. Western Nationals in Turkish Prisons."
Dr. Aykan Erdemir, a senior fellow at the FDD authored the report with the former United States Ambassador to Turkey, Eric Edelman, a senior adviser at the same think tank.

The report lists 40 individuals affected by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's "hostage diplomacy," a term used to describe the arrest of foreign nationals in Turkey, allegedly to extract concessions from their home countries.

40 hostages!? I did not know it was that many.

The paper concludes that "Ultimately, only a strong, coordinated, and unwavering response can deter the Turkish president from further using Western nationals as pawns to advance his political agenda." Sanctioning Turkey, a very popular topic in Washington recently, is one of the paper's "must-do" policy tools when dealing with Erdogan.

Both chambers of Congress have prepared similar bills to target Turkey through sanctions and other means in recent weeks. The sale of weapons to Turkey is also expected to be halted fully until the U.S. administration's interagency groups prepare and deliver a report within 60 days of the bill being passed, focusing on the problems that the both countries have been grappling with.


https://ahvalnews.com/us-turkey/do-not- ... think-tank

I could not agree more. This Turkisk behavior is completely unacceptable. EU and NATO should both send a very clear, strong, and coordinated message to Turkey that this behavior must change and all hostages must be released. Not that I think it will happen, in particular not with the current US president...

The last sentence in bold above is interesting -- is this really the case now?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 16:04
by blindpilot
sferrin wrote:Turkey using the jet in ways we wouldn't want is but a microscopic part of the issue. The MUCH larger issue is all of it's technology and specifics flowing directly to Russia and China, helping them both defend against US stealth and improving their own stealth.


Two points there.
First as to tech going to Russia/China to improve their stealth. The tech is different than before. The Russians/Chinese have already spied/stolen the theory/product info. They pretty much know what we've done. The problem is the production, material science behind the doing is not something easily managed. That's at the "doing it" level. Knowing the angles or elements in the component doesn't make them at the tolerances needed. That's why I say the Japanese could do it, having more info than the Russian/Chinese, and they have stepped back, saying this is too high a mountain for us to climb. This is mostly not the tech of old, that we are used to having stolen. Look at the Chinese struggling to make a jet engine. They have the info. They just can't do it. Stealth is hard.
Secondly, to gaining advantages in their counter stealth systems. I agree there is some risk of setback in this. They might find what RF frequency at what angles are optimum for counter tech. But they already know the general parameters, and getting the exact data is really only a marginal step forward. The hard science is what it is, and works against what can be used. But I'd rather they not have a sample to fine tune such things. I agree with you here, but it's not an instantaneous negating of the advantages. Even more so with most of the functions being software driven. There is no "radio" to examine, beyond what already is known from electronic snooping, and the "radio" can be changed whimsically in software.

Not good for them to have a sample? Yes that's true. But an instantaneous collapse of effectiveness. No that is not true.

loke wrote:
...
The report lists 40 individuals affected by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's "hostage diplomacy," a term used to describe the arrest of foreign nationals in Turkey, allegedly to extract concessions from their home countries.

40 hostages!? I did not know it was that many.
...


Seriously, this is on the level of a massive purge. When my friends took their families and left months ago, they were genuinely afraid for their safety, and they were apolitical, and no threat to the "regime," at all. They "fled." They didn't simply leave. We need to stop the F-35(and use other sanctions) for that reason, and not the ones above.

MHO
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2018, 16:35
by KamenRiderBlade
Either way, the sale of F-35's to Turkey needs to be halted until the Democratic Government comes back into power.

As long as their is a Islamic Authoritarian regime, all sales should be frozen until the Democratic Government returns.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2018, 22:19
by weasel1962
Regardless of whether the next government is democratically elected, the political reality in Turkey is its going to be islamist. Just a question of degree. The likelihood for that part of the world is the more populist, the more Islamist.

Turkey as a program partner has substantial access to the F-35 program. If sales are halted and Turkey chooses to go another route, it should not be surprising that they monetise what they know i.e. sell F-35 knowledge and tech to the highest bidder(s). That includes production plans and data. Hacking may already have given some countries a lot of information but that's nothing compared to what a program partner can provide.

Considering that wider ramifications and benefits that Turkey provides particularly as a continuing bulwark against wider Russian influence in the region + 70 years of carefully cultivated efforts to move Turkey west-wards, I'm not sure if that's worth risking for the F-35 delivery stoppage.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 02:50
by weasel1962
Couldn't find this on hurriyet but article citing hurriyet claiming the invite for the delivery ceremony has been received from LM.

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/2018 ... 5-delivery

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 03:20
by Corsair1963
Turkey to take delivery of first F-35 on Jun. 21


https://youtu.be/YDq7Ewkf6R4

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 04:48
by Corsair1963
WASHINGTON — U.S.-backed Kurdish fighters will withdraw from the key Syrian town of Manbij under a deal reached with the Trump administration, Turkish officials said Monday, potentially easing a serious rift between the U.S. and Turkey.



If successful, a deal to resolve the future of Manbij, a strategic town in north Syria, could avert a tense standoff in northern Syria between Kurdish-led militias and Turkish-backed Syrian fighters. The spat with Turkey, which considers the Kurdish fighters to be terrorists who threaten Turkish sovereignty, has become a major sore point between NATO allies and a distraction for the U.S.-led coalition seeking to defeat the Islamic State group in Syria.

The agreement to resolve the future of Manbij came in a meeting in Washington between Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and visiting Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu. In a joint statement after the meeting, the U.S. and Turkey said the diplomats had “endorsed a roadmap” that aims to “ensure the security and stability in Manbij,” but offered no details.




https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoin ... witter.com

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 05 Jun 2018, 08:47
by loke
I hope this time the roadmap is followed. Turkey has long been offering every kind of support to her ally to fight against Daesh together.

Not entirely true, this was written in 2014:

Mr. Erdogan’s behavior is hardly worthy of a NATO ally. He was so eager to oust Mr. Assad that he enabled ISIS and other militants by allowing fighters, weapons and revenues to flow through Turkey. If Mr. Erdogan refuses to defend Kobani and seriously join the fight against the Islamic State, he will further enable a savage terrorist group and ensure a poisonous long-term instability on his border.


https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/opin ... kurds.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 03:27
by spazsinbad
State Dept. Official: Turkey’s Interest in Russian Air Defense System Could Hurt Projects Like F-35
05 Jun 2018 John Grady

"Several U.S. military-industrial projects in cooperation Turkey are in question – including the production of the F-35 – if Ankara goes through with the acquisition of a Russian S-4000 air defense system, a senior State Department official said on Tuesday. The potential consequences of the Turkish decision will have a “ripple effect” on other joint production projects, A. Wess Mitchell, assistant secretary of state for Europe and Eurasian affairs, said at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, D.C....

...NATO needs to “keep Turkey pointed to the West for its future politically and strategically.”

He ticked off the reasons why Ankara remains “a critical partner” in NATO that includes the effort to defeat the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, continuing counter-terrorism work throughout the Middle East with the alliance and hosting the air base at Incirlik, key for U.S. military operations in the region and a defense against Russian air intrusions....

…[then lots of stuff best read at source] He expects at the alliance’s summit in Brussels next month that an agreement will be reached to “turn NATO’s attention to a southern vector” to address those challenges and the Kremlin’s stepped-up disinformation and political meddling campaigns."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/06/05/state- ... -like-f-35

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 07:52
by loke
I hope Turkey can be saved -- that would be a win-win, both for Turkey and for NATO/EU.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 15:21
by markithere
If Turkey holds another NATO country men hostage to extract something from that NATO country they are in active violation of Article 1, 2, 4, and 7.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Jun 2018, 16:05
by durahawk
Corsair1963 wrote:Turkey to take delivery of first F-35 on Jun. 21


https://youtu.be/YDq7Ewkf6R4


Like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 02:05
by madrat
Face it, if the coup happened when F-35 was there Erdogan's escort goes down about the same instant his presidential place does. Does anyone really think Erdogan won't use the F-35 as insurance against F-16 operators getting out of line?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2018, 20:30
by geokav
SEC. 1269. REMOVAL OF TURKEY FROM THE F–35 PROGRAM.

Pages 680 - 681.
If this passes from Trump, Turkey will have an enormous problem. But after Tsavousoglou's trip to the US, Turkey announced a delay of 10 months regarding S-400 acceptance, with an excuse of "not enough training for Turkish operators..."


https://www.armed-services.senate.gov/i ... 987pcs.pdf

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 09:57
by spazsinbad
Despite some opposition, US on course to deliver F-35s to Turkey on June 21
13 Jun 2018 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The U.S. government is proceeding with plans to deliver the first F-35 to Turkey, with the country set to accept its first jet on June 21 despite opposition from some in Congress....

...“The aircraft will then ferry to Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, where Turkish pilots will join the F-35A training pool.”

The Senate is set to vote this week on the annual defense policy bill, which includes language that would prohibit the U.S. government from “transfer of title” to Turkey until the time that the Defense Department submits a report to Congress on removal of Turkey from the F-35 program....

...for now, it appears that the Defense Department has no plans to keep Turkey from getting its first F-35 or to put restrictions on its use at Luke AFB....

...After a meeting in Washington with U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo earlier this month, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu expressed confidence that the United States would not only deliver the first F-35 to Turkey as planned, but that it would ultimately decide to continue F-35 sales to Turkey.

“Turkey rejects threatening language from the U.S. on the issue, it is not constructive,” Çavuşoğlu said on June 4, according to a report from the Turkish newsgroup Anadolu Agency....

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-pr ... n-june-21/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 12:20
by mgelevli
As a Turkish citizen, I find it quite a big mistake to purchase Russian systems. It is a big waste of money. I would prefer those funds to be directed for domestic and cooperative defense projects, that would enhance our national defense capabilities, keeping up with the NATO standarts, which I consider has given the qualitative edge to our armed forces for many years.
Turkish Air Defenses have relied on fighter aircraft for many years. It is no doubt we need a layered, network centric integrated air defense system. S-400 will not give us a networked defense capability as we may not be able to use them within our air defense structure. They will be stand alone systems, which will make them vulnerable to SEAD/DEAD attacks. I would prefer a stop gap system procurement such as Patriot or EuroSAM and keep up the domestic R&D work for a long range air defense missile system just as we have done in low and medium altitude air defense missile systems ( HISAR-A and HISAR-O). In the long run, we would have domestic, indigenous missile systems that would be acceptable within the NATO defense structure and would not upset any of our allies.
In recent weeks there have been rumors of Su-57 fighters for the Turkish Air Force. This would be even a much worse situation for us. Of course, if US does indeed stop our participation in the F-35 program, and block the transfer of our F-35 jets, there may not be so much of an option for us. Never the less, the alternative of the F-35 should not be a Russian fighter. I would consider Eurofighter procurement, as this would be less traumatic for us, at least that it would not necessitate the procurement of a new set of ammunitions and may easily be integrated into our air defense network.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 15:13
by gideonic
Well Erdogan has stepped up the rethoric:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... les-133279

Besides [the S-400s], I have made a proposal to Russia for the joint production of the S-500s,” Erdoğan said in a televised interview late June 13.
...
“Also, we will undertake in the joint production in the second and third stages [of the S-400s],” he added.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2018, 15:36
by loke
But President Tayyip Erdoğan has repeatedly said Turkey has been forced to buy Russian systems because the Americans have been declining to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/opinio ... ift-133252

What I quite don't understand is that Turkey claim that the US refused to sell Patriot to Turkey, and this forced Turkey to buy Russian SAMs.

However apart from Turkish claims I have not seen any statements from the US that they have blocked sales of Patriot to Turkey. Also it seems surprising that the US would refuse to sell Patrio to a NATO ally.

Perhaps Turkey has demanded ToT on Patriot, and perhaps this is what the US could not agree to? If this is the case, then IMHO Turkey has misrepresented the situation.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 01:16
by weasel1962
It was more Raytheon was restricted from providing the Patriot technology (aka black box) transfers that Turkey wanted. Standard tech transfer concerns.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 02:10
by madrat
Greece and Syria must have world class air force threats for Turkey to need S-400.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 03:18
by weasel1962
What Turkey is gunning for is not air defense per se but the long range missile technology. They tried early to burrow their way into the Arrow program but US blocked the access using MTCR as an excuse,

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2018, 03:35
by kostas29
madrat wrote:Greece and Syria must have world class air force threats for Turkey to need S-400.


Greece as a matter fact does have.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2018, 11:21
by geokav
15th of June 2018
A letter of 44 members of the Congress to secretary of defense James Mattis for Turkish F-35s....


https://sarbanes.house.gov/sites/sarban ... SIGNED.pdf

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 03:27
by spazsinbad
Trump Administration Warns Friends Against Russia Arms Deals
18 Jun 2018 Paul McLeary

"As some Gulf and Asian allies consider big purchases of Russia arms, the Senate is set to uphold a law signed by Trump that would slap sanctions on them for cozying up with Moscow....

...Schenker’s [Trump administration nominee] comments came just days before Turkey is slated to receive its first F-35 aircraft in a ceremony at a Lockheed Martin facility in Texas, a deal which has been put in some jeopardy by the looming S-400 purchase. Both U.S. and NATO officials have criticized the move, saying that placing a Russian air defense system in a NATO country would not only give the Russian military a foothold inside NATO, but complicate the alliance’s larger air defense architecture.

Another provision in the 2016 NDAA being voted on Monday would ban the sale of the 100 F-35’s that Ankara is planning to purchase, citing the S-400 purchase.

Earlier this year, Gen. Petr Pavel, chairman of the NATO Military Committee, told me that the system itself is less an issue than is its database. “The database will be collected on the territory of a NATO ally, with all allied assets present in Turkey” being mapped and logged into Russian systems, he said. Russian personnel will be on the ground to instruct the Turkish military how to operate the complicated radars and fire control systems, handing Moscow critical intelligence on what NATO assets are in the country, where they are, and what kind of capabilities they may have.

Rarely one to back down, Turkey’s increasingly authoritarian President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has suggested in recent days he might be interested in buying the Russian’s even more advanced S-500 system."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/06/tru ... rms-deals/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 13:30
by vilters
I live in Belgium-Europe and UNFORTUNATELY we have the Turkish National TV on our TV Cable network. A disgrace to all.

I write "Unfortunately", because you can turn the TV on at ANY time of the day, it is Erdolan again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

They have only a single artist, a single reporter, a single singer, a single show :
The ERDOLAN Show, form morning, till evening, and if you missed something, look at night.

The state controlled Turk National TV is a MASTER in the game of brain washing its population.

Come to think of it. He must be close friends with that other dictator wannabe clown from North Korea.
They also SHOUT the news to their listeners over there. LOL.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 14:12
by sferrin
Turkish PM Says US Bill Blocking F-35 Sales ‘Unfortunate’

"The U.S. Senate's decision to pass a bill prohibiting the sale of Lockheed Martin's F-35 jets to Turkey is unfortunate and against the spirit of strategic partnership, Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yıldırım said on Tuesday.

“The decision is unfortunate, but Turkey is not without alternatives. It is regrettable that the U.S. Senate has made such a move, which is against the spirit of strategic partnership,” he said.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said on Tuesday that the first F-35 jet would be delivered to Turkey on Thursday. “The rollout ceremony for Turkey’s first F-35 aircraft will be held on June 21,” Çavuşoğlu said. "

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... f_35s.html

They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 15:30
by geforcerfx
sferrin wrote: They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.


Why? It's a training jet at Luke isn't it? doesn't go anywhere doesn't fly unless we let it.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 22:33
by marsavian
The Turkish F-35s were not meant to fly to Turkey for another two years anyway, enough time to resolve this matter one way or the other. 85 Senators is a veto proof majority and I can't see Trump going to bat for Erdogan over this. This is really a done deal unless President Ottoman Slap changes course and drops the aggressive rhetoric as well as the S-400s. At this rate I can't see even an AESA upgrade for their F-16s being sanctioned. The Sultan will drop the S-400 within those two years as he will appreciate the offense that F-35 gives him more than the defense that S-400 will. The rest is just bluster before this eventuality.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/opinio ... key-133017

The Turkish government has not decided the level of representation in that ceremony. Ankara is probably waiting to see who will be present from the U.S. side. When their first F-35 was delivered two months ago the defense minister of South Korea was there, as well as one senator and one congressman from Texas. It is not difficult to imagine that Turkey’s ceremony at Fort Worth will not be a real party like the Koreans had. There will certainly be representatives from the Pentagon and the U.S. Air Force. But the idea that some members of the U.S. Congress will happily pose with Turkish officials in front of that F-35 seems like a pipe dream.

It seems that the F-35 will be delivered to the Turkish side but it will not fly to Turkey for almost two years, while Turkish pilots are trained with it on American soil. The Trump administration will use this to defend itself against Congress, arguing that the F-35 project will not be compromised until that plane lands in Turkey while hoping in the meantime that Ankara will drop its commitment about the purchase of S-400s from Russia.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 23:10
by sferrin
geforcerfx wrote:
sferrin wrote: They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.


Why? It's a training jet at Luke isn't it? doesn't go anywhere doesn't fly unless we let it.


Did not know that. Good to hear.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2018, 22:40
by geokav
vilters wrote:I live in Belgium-Europe and UNFORTUNATELY we have the Turkish National TV on our TV Cable network. A disgrace to all.

I write "Unfortunately", because you can turn the TV on at ANY time of the day, it is Erdolan again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

They have only a single artist, a single reporter, a single singer, a single show :
The ERDOLAN Show, form morning, till evening, and if you missed something, look at night.

The state controlled Turk National TV is a MASTER in the game of brain washing its population.

Come to think of it. He must be close friends with that other dictator wannabe clown from North Korea.
They also SHOUT the news to their listeners over there. LOL.


That is "democracy" by Erdoğan point of view. You can't see anyone else because they are in prison …. :lmao:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2018, 21:52
by spazsinbad
Turkey gets first F-35, but faces halt on future deliveries if Congress gets its way
21 Jun 2018 Valerie Insinna

"...After the delivery, Turkey’s first F-35 is set to move to Luke Air Force Base, Ariz., where the Turkish pilots will be embedded inside a U.S. Air Force training squadron and learn to operate the F-35 alongside American pilots.

Turkish maintainers have already started their training at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, Ufuk Er [Turkish Maj. Gen. Reha Ufuk Er] said."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nato-pr ... eliveries/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2018, 23:25
by spazsinbad
Turkey Receives First F-35 Despite Political Row
22 Jun 2018 Chris Pocock

"...Turkey has been a level-two partner in the F-35 program since 2002, when it joined early in the System Design and Development (SDD) phase. It has stated a requirement for 100 aircraft, and the Turkish aerospace industry is providing parts and software for the entire program. In late 2014, the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO) chose Turkey as the location for overhauls of the jet’s F135 engine. Pratt & Whitney created a joint venture in Izmir with Kale Aero in 2010, to manufacture parts for the F135.

Turkey’s first F-35 was shown at the ceremony with a SOM-J cruise missile developed by Roketsan and Tubitak-SAGE, and a 500-pound bomb equipped with the HGK GPS/INS guidance kit developed by the latter company. Turkish air force Maj. Gen. Rehar Ufuker said that both these Turkish weapons would be integrated with the F-35 “in the near future.” Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control has partnered with Roketsan to jointly develop and market the SOM-J.

Lockheed Martin leadership made no reference to the Senate action at the ceremony. However, chairman, president and CEO Marillyn Hewson said that the F-35 is “a decisive strategic tool [in cementing] strong and effective alliances.” Ufuker echoed the sentiment, saying that Turkey’s F-35s would “contribute greatly to the NATO alliance and regional security.” The country is offering to provide aircrew and maintenance training for other NATO allies that are buying F-35s, he added."

Photo: "At the delivery ceremony for Turkey’s first F-35, two indigenous weapons were shown. (Photo: Lockheed Martin)" https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default ... emony-.jpg


Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... itical-row

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2018, 04:10
by southernphantom
Like delivering F-14s to the IIAF in 1976...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2018, 19:49
by outlaw162
the general has an interesting name

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Jun 2018, 21:19
by spazsinbad

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 17:57
by f4u7_corsair
sferrin wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:
sferrin wrote: They better hope they stop that first jet or the whole effort is pointless.


Why? It's a training jet at Luke isn't it? doesn't go anywhere doesn't fly unless we let it.


Did not know that. Good to hear.


Is this really how LM and Americans hope to sell the F-35 to Finland, who focuses great attention on self-reliance (logistical and operational)? :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 18:09
by spazsinbad
Why does FINLAND feature in a TURKEY thread? Is Finland part of NATO? Is Finland buying Russian/Chinese equipment? NO.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 18:27
by kimjongnumbaun
f4u7_corsair wrote:
Is this really how LM and Americans hope to sell the F-35 to Finland, who focuses great attention on self-reliance (logistical and operational)? :doh:


That's pretty normal unless you think countries automatically have bases setup to handle the F-35 with pre trained crews and pilots.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jun 2018, 22:19
by geforcerfx
f4u7_corsair wrote:
Is this really how LM and Americans hope to sell the F-35 to Finland, who focuses great attention on self-reliance (logistical and operational)? :doh:


That's how the Finn's would train with there first few jets and crews, then take the jets and trained experienced personel back to Finland where there home training base awaits. Those first pilots and maintainers are trained on the jet and trained how to train future pilots and crews, after this is done they have the knowledge and experience to train in there home country like most F-35 operators are.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 28 Jun 2018, 23:36
by marsavian
US Likely to Block F-35 Sale if Turkey Buys Russian Missile: Official

https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... icial.html

The United States could still block the delivery of F-35 stealth jets to Turkey if Ankara buys Russia's S-400 air defense system, a senior official said Wednesday.

U.S. defense giant Lockheed Martin delivered an F-35 to Turkish officials in Texas last week, but Assistant Secretary of State Wess Mitchell warned the program could still be halted.

The advanced jets will remain on U.S. soil in Arizona while their Turkish pilots are trained, giving the State Department time to intervene, the top official told a Senate hearing.

"In this program the U.S. maintains custody of aircraft until they are transferred. That normally occurs after a lengthy training process," Mitchell told the Senate Foreign Relations committee.

"We believe that we have existing legal authorities that would allow us to withhold transfer under certain circumstances, including national security concerns," he said.

"Given that, we believe that we continue to have time and ability to assure that Turkey does not move forward on S-400 before having to take a decision on F-35," he explained.

Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was re-elected at the weekend with increased presidential powers.

His administration is in dispute with its NATO ally Washington on a number of points, including its repeatedly stated intent to deploy Russia's S-400 anti-aircraft missile system.

This would mean Turkey's defenses are not compatible with those of its Western allies and put it in breach of U.S. sanctions aimed at hobbling Russia's defense export sector.

U.S. lawmakers are working on ways to punish Turkey if it buys the S-400 or if it continues to imprison two dozen US citizens on "unjust" charges under Erdogan's state of emergency.

But Mitchell said President Donald Trump's administration already has the powers its needs under existing sanctions laws.

He said the U.S. had been clear that "an acquisition of S-400 will inevitably affect the prospects for Turkish military-industrial cooperation with the United States, including F-35s."

"We can't be any clearer in saying, both privately and publicly: a decision on S-400s will qualitatively change the US-Turkish relationship in a way that would be very difficult to repair."

Turkey has said the agreement on the S-400 system had already been reached, but Mitchell told lawmakers that Washington would judge this "when there's actual delivery of the technology."

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 03:15
by durahawk
Not that I think Turkey should get the F-35, but did the US Government have any beefs when Greece acquired the S-300PMU's? Understand the HAF acquired them in a round about way from Cyprus.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 10:20
by vilters
Erdolan does not care any more.
He won the elections and is now God himself. (Or allah)
He could rewrite the Koran into "The battle of 2020" and his people would still support him.

Blocking the F-35 is the only sane thing to do.

Remember the F-14 , the F-4 and F-5 sales to Iran?

History has the nasty habit of repeating itself.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 13:26
by sferrin
durahawk wrote:Not that I think Turkey should get the F-35, but did the US Government have any beefs when Greece acquired the S-300PMU's? Understand the HAF acquired them in a round about way from Cyprus.


Greece wasn't buying F-35s. It's F-16s, good as they are, were already a well known quantity, so it was less of an issue.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 29 Jun 2018, 15:11
by jakobs
durahawk wrote:Not that I think Turkey should get the F-35, but did the US Government have any beefs when Greece acquired the S-300PMU's? Understand the HAF acquired them in a round about way from Cyprus.


That was also more of a political solution to keep peace between two Nato allies. I would guess US Government gave strong support for the deal. Also Greece haven't been using them, just keeping them in storage on Crete.

First test shots was not fired until only a couple of years ago.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 03:43
by spazsinbad
A bit of lite relief for those 'TURKEY PUNCHERS':

https://youtu.be/3e5nkZrBv7M?t=48

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 14:47
by spazsinbad
Turkey Received Delivery Of Its First F-35 Aircraft
30 Jun 2018 Turkey Undersecretariat for Defence Industries

"Turkey, being a program partner under the F-35 project since its inception in 1999, received delivery of its first aircraft in a ceremony held in Fort Worth, USA. The F-35 aircraft, which the Turkish defense industry sector is actively involved in production, will remain in the USA for a while for the training of our pilots, and will start to arrive to the duty posts in our country starting from November 2019….

...The first received F-35 aircraft with tail number 18-0001 will be assigned to Luke Air Base in Arizona for use in pilot training. Activation work is already continuing at the Malatya 7th Main Jet Base Command which will be the first base where the F-35 aircraft will be deployed in Turkey and which also will host the Integrated Training Center where the pilot and maintenance training will be provided. Training activities will begin in country in 2020 following the arrival of the first aircraft in Turkey in November 2019."

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/turkey- ... 5-aircraft

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 01 Jul 2018, 14:53
by spazsinbad
Trump guarantees F-35 deliveries to Ankara, says Turkish minister
29 Jun 2019 Garrett Reim

"Turkey’s foreign minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu says in a TV interview that US president Donald Trump personally promised to ensure the delivery of the Lockheed Martin F-35A to his country....

...Trump told Turkey’s government that he would take the steps necessary to make sure the NATO ally received the aircraft it ordered from Lockheed Martin, according to the country’s foreign minister in an interview with Turkish television station NTV on 29 June.

The National Security Council confirmed that the US president spoke with Erdoğan, but declined to confirm or deny that the F-35 was part of the conversation...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ur-449849/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 09:00
by barrelnut
It would be kinda difficult to block Turkey getting their F-35's. Turkey is a partner nation to the program and has thus paid development costs, and is a NATO ally after all.

If Turkey cannot be trusted for having too close connections with Russia, they should be kicked out of NATO first IMHO.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 09:33
by Corsair1963
Turkey has a lot to loose in any split with the West. So, my guess they would back down. If, push comes to shove.. :wink:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 03:51
by spazsinbad
Two Page PDF of article attached.
Lightning storm
10-16 Jul 2018 GARRETT REIM

"Turkey’s acquisition of a Russian anti-aircraft system has led US opponents to seek a block on F-35 sales to the country,
bringing its participation in the programme into question...""

Source: Flight International | 10-16 July 2018 Magazine

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 10:20
by spazsinbad
:doh: :devil: Turkey Turkey Turkey - Gobble Gobble Gobble this offer up - PUHLEEZ. :doh: :mrgreen:

Another kerfuffle here: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... of-450319/
US Still Hopes to Sway Turkey to Buy Patriot Missiles over S-400
16 Jul 2018 Oriana Pawlyk

"FARNBOROUGH, England -- While there is no formal deal in place, U.S. officials are still hoping to convince Turkey to buy the Patriot missile system. The catch? Turkey would need to dump its newly inked deal with Russia to procure the S-400 surface-to-air missile system.

"Ultimately, we are concerned that by purchasing these systems from the Russians, it will be supportive of some of the least good behavior that we have seen from them in various places, including in Europe but also elsewhere," said Tina Kaidanow, acting assistant secretary for the Bureau of Political Military Affairs at the State Department....

...It is unclear which versions are being pitched to Turkey; however, Raytheon earlier this year hinted there is another country interested in buying the PAC-3 MSE advanced system, according to a report from Defense News last week....

...Kaidanow said customers should consider future transactions when dealing with adversary systems. "That's true of a number of our partners. It's not just ... the Turks, as I said," she said.

According to the Daily Sabah Diplomacy, a Turkish news site, Turkey has not ruled out purchase of the Patriot system. Unidentified officials who spoke to the paper said that while no deal is in place, conversations have been had about the system before. But the Patriot isn't a suitable alternative to the S-400, the officials told Daily Sabah.

In March, Aksam, a Turkish newspaper, reported that conversations were expected to continue on a potential Patriot buy."

Source: https://www.military.com/defensetech/20 ... s-400.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 14:57
by spazsinbad
MOre YadaYadaYada:

Raytheon missile defense chief: Turkey Patriot decision ‘is all political’ Jill Aitoro 16 Jul 2018

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... political/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 17 Jul 2018, 15:28
by spazsinbad
Perhaps the turkeymens are holding out for da GaN? No NOT AFgannyStan.

GaN Radar To Enhance Patriot Air Defense System 17 Jul 2018 David Donald
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... nse-system

Photo: "Raytheon has amassed around 3,000 hours run-time on the prototype GaN radar for Patriot." https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default ... an-pic.gif

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 23:05
by spazsinbad
DOD opposes removing Turkey from F-35 programme, citing supply chain disruption
20 Jul 2018 Garrett Reim

"In a letter sent to US Representative Mac Thornberry, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, US Secretary of Defense James Mattis acknowledged concerns about the Turkish government, while opposing US lawmakers’ efforts to remove the country from the F-35 Lightning II programme, saying the loss of the nation from the supply chain would delay delivery of some aircraft for up to two years....

...Until now, the Defense Department has been silent on lawmaker opposition to Turkey’s involvement in the F-35 programme. “Removing Turkey could trigger a supply chain disruption for the US military and our partners, as well as increase other program costs,” Mattis says in his letter to the House Armed Services Committee Chairman on 7 July. “If the Turkish supply chain was disrupted today, it would result in an aircraft production break delaying delivery of 50-75 F-35s, and would take approximately 18-24 months to re-source parts and recover.”

In co-ordination with Northrop Grumman, the main fuselage manufacturer for the F-35, Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactures and assembles centre fuselages, produces composite skins and weapon bay doors, and fibre placement composite air inlet ducts. In total, ten different Turkish firms make parts for every F-35 manufactured....

...The House Armed Services Committee decline to comment on the letter from Mattis."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... it-450558/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 22 Jul 2018, 14:15
by madrat
A general more concerned with the supply chain than security implications?

Doesn't sound right at all.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 01:38
by spazsinbad
Congress Halts F-35 Turkey Transfers, Punts On Space Force
23 Jul 2018 Colin Clark

"CAPITOL HILL The Senate and House have come together on a $716 billion defense spending report that would prohibit the transfer of F-35 jets to Turkey, expand American aid to Asian allies to counter China and add ships and other technology funding lines above the White House request....

...The language on Turkey will likely anger Ankara, which plans to buy the Russian-made S-400 air defense system despite loud objections from fellow NATO members who say that the system will compromise the alliance’s security. The purchase from Russia is also putting Turkish participation in the F-35 program in jeopardy, as Congress is ready to stop all deliveries of the plane to Turkey.

“We’re trying to make a point that is broader than just the F-35,” said one aide, adding that the report is “taking a look at all of the major FMS sales pending with Turkey, and requires an assessment of the overall U.S. strategic relation with Turkey.”

The two houses of Congress have also come to an agreement that countries must show a path toward breaking their military relationship with Moscow before being granted a waiver, while continuing the ban on any military-to-military interactions between the United States and Russia. That one seems aimed straight at Turkey and at India, which continues to buy considerable amounts of Russian hardware....

...A helpful footnote: although the Pentagon almost always respects language in the NDAA report, it does have not the force of law, as does the National Defense Authorization Act." [once again bullshite baffles brains]

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2018/07/con ... ace-force/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 19:44
by sunstersun
**** a space force, give me a cyber force with laxed recruitment laws.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 20:08
by kimjongnumbaun
sunstersun wrote:**** a space force, give me a cyber force with laxed recruitment laws.


Space and cyber are considered the same realm for the military.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:37
by spazsinbad
Lockheed Martin: F-35 Production on Track Even as Congress Mulls Barring Turkey’s Participation
24 Jul 2018 Ben Werner

"...analysts wanted Lockheed Martin officials to explain how potential Congressional action blocking Turkey from taking ownership of their F-35 aircraft could hurt the overall financial performance of the company’s largest program.

Congressional leaders, Pentagon officials and Lockheed Martin executives have all spoken frequently about the need to bring the overall program cost down to below $100 million per fighter if the program is going to be sustainable, but any cost savings plans discussed include Turkey’s planned purchase 100 F-35 aircraft. Turkey has been a member of the F-35 program since its 1999 inception.

However, Congress is threatening to block NATO-member Turkey from taking ownership of its aircraft because of concerns the nation is considering purchasing the Russian-made S-400 air and missile defense system.

The FY 2019 National Defense Authorization Act, which emerged from a conference committee Monday evening, specifically asks for Secretary of Defense James Mattis to provide Congress with an update on Turkey’s military relationship with the U.S. military. Turkey’s proposed purchase of the S-400 system concerns Congressional leaders, according to the NDAA language, because its deployment poses “operational and counterintelligence risks” to the U.S. operation of F-35 aircraft.

Coincidentally, last month Lockheed Martin held a roll-out ceremony for Turkey’s first two F-35 aircraft. Turkey’s F-35 acquisition is part the U.S. Department of State-administered Foreign Military Sales program, which allows foreign governments to purchase military equipment from the U.S. government. Purchases made through this program require Congressional approval.

“This is under the FMS, the foreign military sales arrangement,” Tanner said. “This is a contract between Lockheed and the US Government, as opposed to direct commercial sales, so we’ll continue to deliver aircraft until the U.S. government says don’t deliver those aircraft, which we’re not expecting.”

For now, Tanner said Lockheed Martin is delivering Turkish aircraft on schedule. For the time being, as is with the case with any international sale, Tanner said the Turkish aircraft remain in the U.S. as Turkey’s pilots train with their aircraft.

“We have some time before those aircraft would leave the U.S.,” Tanner said...."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/07/24/35291

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 21:41
by spazsinbad
Congress Moves Closer to Suspending Sales of F-35 to Turkey
24 Jul 2018 Oriana Pawlyk

"The suspension of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter sales to Turkey has become more likely after both the House and Senate opposed the deal in their versions of the 2019 National Defense Authorization Act.

The Defense Department has 90 days from the bill's final passage to submit a report to lawmakers explaining the strategic value of selling the jet to Turkey, a member of NATO. Until that time, deliveries of the fifth-generation fighter to Turkey will be on hold, House aides told reporters Monday, The Hill reported....

...The House is expected to vote on the conference version of the NDAA this week; the Senate should vote on the bill in August."

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... urkey.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2018, 06:13
by Corsair1963
Lockheed Martin: F-35 Production on Track Even as Congress Mulls Barring Turkey’s Participation

By: Ben Werner

July 24, 2018 3:20 PM

The stealthy F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter won’t be overly exposed to cost pressures if international customer Turkey is barred by Congress from taking ownership of its aircraft, Lockheed Martin’s senior leadership said while discussing second quarter financial results with Wall Street analysts during a Tuesday conference call..........

https://news.usni.org/2018/07/24/35291#more-35291

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 31 Jul 2018, 22:48
by spazsinbad
A long comprehensive article covering details well known here in earlier posts so only first/last few paragraphs below.
Aperture
September John A. Tirpak

"TRIUMF OF THE WON'T
Perhaps the most serious rift in years between NATO allies and among development partners on the F-35 strike fighter has been playing out over the last few months. It’s all about Turkey’s decision to buy Russia’s advanced Almaz-Antey S-400 “Triumf” air defense system.

In June, US senators inserted language into the 2019 National Defense Appropriations bill to block Turkey from fielding the F-35s that country has already purchased. The senators said they’re immediately concerned about the F-35’s stealth secrets leaking to Russia if the jet is flown in close proximity to the S-400....

...The bill would keep Turkey from receiving the technical information or support necessary to maintain and operate the F-35s. The already-passed House version of the Fiscal 2019 NDAA would stop all weapon sales to Turkey pending a Pentagon review of the tensions between the two countries....

...The S-400, as an adversary, “limits the range, particularly, of your legacy aircraft ... you have to work farther away” to be safe from the system’s missiles, Holmes said. “It means you have to go farther off the tankers, so you have less time when you’re forward.” Holmes said he would prefer not to fly the F-35 in close proximity to the S-400. The “how and when” is a “policy issue” on which he would not comment. “We take steps—whenever we fly the airplane—to do the gain and loss analysis of ‘where do we want to fly it, what do we want to do, who do we want to fly it with,’ and we’ll continue to work through those processes and make recommendations up the chain” of command, Holmes said.

A balance has to be struck, he said, “between demonstrating commitment and assuring your allies” and “preserving your state secrets.” It may be “hard to avoid” exposing the F-35 to adversary radars in the long term, though, Holmes said. “The airplane’s out there. We’ve accepted 300 of them” in the US services, and they will soon be based overseas by the US armed forces, “Alaska next, and to the United Kingdom after that,” Holmes pointed out. Some European partners are already fielding their F-35s, he said. “So, I think the question ... is not so much about ‘will you,’ it’s about ‘how will’ you do it” and still strike the balance of power projection and secrecy.

Although the Turkish government says that only Turkish troops will crew the S-400 system—a series of vehicles involving both radars and missiles—it is likely that Russian advisors will teach the crews how to operate the system against a variety of threats. Not widely known is that the S-400 is not just an air defense system. It can be employed as a ballistic missile system, striking at ground targets with high precision. Turkey has said it needs the system to defend against ISIS and the Kurds—neither of which have an air force—and also against Iran, which does....

...The Pentagon is loathe to alienate a long-term stalwart ally with a large military. Several Defense officials said that making the S-400 a loyalty test will only antagonize Turkey and, as one said, “drive them into the arms of Putin.” However, a Senate staffer said things may already have gone too far in that direction, and the legislation should be a wake-up call to Turkey to turn things around or face the unappealing outcome of becoming a Russian client state. “We don’t have to stay to the end to know how this movie turns out,” he said.""

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... rture.aspx

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 02 Aug 2018, 15:16
by mixelflick
Let Turkey go, the F-35 is too big a security risk.

I mean seriously, our entire air to air/ground game plan (and most of our allies) is predicated on the F-35 and its secrets. Let Turkey order up as much Russian equipment as it likes, they'll learn the hard way the brochure specs don't add up in the real world. And they'll get their SU-57's, some day LOL

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 03:38
by durahawk
This sale is looking better and better all the time :bang:

It's almost like they are trying to get kicked out of the program to make mockery of the fact the US Government is too inept to stop the sale. I can't for the life of me figure out why DoD (or Lockheed for that matter, they might be greedy, but not stupid) still wants this to go through.

Turkish lawyers want to raid İncirlik Air Base and arrest U.S. Air Force officers
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... -officers/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 03:50
by talkitron
Turkey’s currency just set a record low versus the dollar. Erdogan is too proud to release the detained American pastor.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 17:55
by steve2267
If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 19:25
by XanderCrews
steve2267 wrote:If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...



Or that Su-57 Ive heard is the clear alternative :doh:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Aug 2018, 21:25
by marsavian
Trump is sticking the boot in by doubling steel/aluminium tariffs on Turkey. I think the F-35 is the least of their problems now in trying to rescue this relationship. As the old song goes ... freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose ! So Erdogan, how's that Ottoman Empire 2.0 working out for you ? ;)






https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45123607

http://thehill.com/policy/international ... -on-turkey

http://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/stat ... 6586109955

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
I have just authorized a doubling of Tariffs on Steel and Aluminum with respect to Turkey as their currency, the Turkish Lira, slides rapidly downward against our very strong Dollar! Aluminum will now be 20% and Steel 50%. Our relations with Turkey are not good at this time!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 00:03
by popcorn
XanderCrews wrote:
steve2267 wrote:If Turkey's currency crashes... might be a wee bit difficult to purchase F-35s...



Or that Su-57 Ive heard is the clear alternative :doh:


There's always this, unbeatable CPFH... uses tokens :mrgreen:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 01:11
by spazsinbad
Reminds me of this BIRDIE story:
Chief Petty Officer Saves Air Force Pilot in Horse-Back Riding Mishap
01 Mar 2012 UNK page 12

“A Royal Australian Air Force Pilot serving in the Defence Department narrowly escaped serious injury recently when he attempted horseback riding with no prior experience. After mounting his horse unassisted, the horse immediately began moving. As it galloped along at a steady and rhythmic pace, the pilot, who has not been named, began to slip sideways from the saddle. Although attempting to grab for the horse's mane the pilot could not get a firm grip. He then threw his arms around the horse's neck but continued to slide down the side of the horse. The horse galloped along, seemingly oblivious to its slipping rider. Finally, losing his grip, the rider attempted to leap away from the horse & throw himself to safety.

However, his foot became entangled in the stirrup, leaving him at the mercy of the horse's pounding hooves as his head and upper body repeatedly struck the ground. Moments away from unconsciousness and possible death, to his great fortune an RAN Chief Petty Officer, shopping at K-Mart, saw him and quickly un-plugged the horse!”

Source: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/upl ... -Mar12.pdf (4.6Mb)

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 02:19
by popcorn
BWAHAHAHA!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Aug 2018, 04:45
by element1loop
ROFLMAO!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 00:17
by quicksilver
Well played Spaz. Blew a few suds through my nose on that one... :applause:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 09:56
by spazsinbad
OOPS NGJ video in rong thred.... :doh: GO HERE FOR NGJ Video from Raytheon:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=52254&p=399534&hilit=thread#p399534

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 11:02
by element1loop
"Would you like fries with that, sir?"

#You don't always get what you want.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 06:03
by beepa
Well looks like Trump has done the Turkey dump. Not going to be very many happy Turks around. Who knows what comes next. https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/08/13/tr ... -rift-f35/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 07:34
by Corsair1963
My guess is production will continue and Turkish F-35's will go straight to storage. If, this issue is resolved Turkey can still get her F-35's. If, not the US can keep the F-35's or put them up for sale (export)....



Also, this keep production of the F-35 going on both sides of the Atlantic. It's also worth noting much of what Turkey produces for the F-35 is already made by other suppliers. Including the center fuselage/intakes. Which, is produced by both Northrup Grumman (US) and TAI (Turkey).....I doubt Trump would cry over giving more work to US Suppliers.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 07:42
by Corsair1963
Honestly, Turkey is in a very poor position and both sides know it. Hell, just about every major Weapons Program in Turkey has a large portion of Western Components. So, a break between Turkey and the West. (i.e. Europe & US) Would be nothing short of "CRUSHING" to the Turkish Defense Sector and Military!


If, Erdoğan is truly afraid of another coup attempt. This is not the way to avoiding one! :shock:

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 15:52
by talkitron
I would like to see a detailed analysis of the role of Turkish firms as subcontractors in the F-35 program. I hope some journalists will be working on this article. While we are at it, we might cut Canada’s share of the program for not buying any planes yet.

It is possible Erdogan and and Trump will make up, but it is difficult as there is no sign Gulen will be extradited and otherwise there is not much face-saving stuff the US can offer Turkey if Trump demands both the pastor and the cancellation of the S-400 deal with Russia (to please Congress more than himself). Erdogan is just as prideful as Trump.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 15:58
by steve2267
talkitron wrote:I would like to see a detailed analysis of the role of Turkish firms as subcontractors in the F-35 program. I hope some journalists will be working on this article. While we are at it, we might cut Canada’s share of the program for not buying any planes yet.


While I share your sentiments with regards to Canada, the Canucks have been paying the funds required to remain a partner nation. I seem to recall a news story about the Canadians paying hundreds of millions of dollars as a partner nation. Kind of odd that they pay to remain a partner, yet haven't ordered any yet, and the press seems to NOT raise a ruckus over these payments.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 16:12
by bojack_horseman
Ridiculous decision IMO.

Throwing a spanner into the very delicately distributed global supply chain.

So, when the Tukish components halt.... assembly halts?

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 16:32
by marsavian
The Turks will back down having had a small taste of how cold the wind can blow outside of a friendly Western ecosystem. The reality that has to dawn on Erdogan is that everyone in that ecosystem has to play nice with the big dog, USA, in that system or face the consequences. It's nothing personal as many countries are finding with the economic nationalist Trump at the helm. Give it a few months and the Pastor will be freed by their 'independent' judiciary and S-400 will be cancelled for Patriots and F-35 will then be released because ultimately F-35 is too important for the aggressive foreign policy Erdogan is very fond of. Otherwise it's best we find out now before F-35 is released to them if the Turks want to have a maverick foreign policy which has no care for traditional alliances. Time to choose Sultan baby !

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 17:48
by sferrin
bojack_horseman wrote:Ridiculous decision IMO.

Throwing a spanner into the very delicately distributed global supply chain.

So, when the Tukish components halt.... assembly halts?


Other companies will be more than happy to pick up that work.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 18:43
by bojack_horseman
sferrin wrote:Other companies will be more than happy to pick up that work.


When?

Today?
Tomorrow?

These things don't happen quickly..

This could well grind production to a halt while alternate suppliers are tendered, contracts awarded, components made & tested etc etc.

Right when production was gaining major traction.

All over some stupid political stunt

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 19:05
by talkitron
steve2267 wrote:While I share your sentiments with regards to Canada, the Canucks have been paying the funds required to remain a partner nation. I seem to recall a news story about the Canadians paying hundreds of millions of dollars as a partner nation. Kind of odd that they pay to remain a partner, yet haven't ordered any yet, and the press seems to NOT raise a ruckus over these payments.


That might seem like a lot of money in Canada, but it is not in the US. :D

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 19:52
by durahawk
bojack_horseman wrote: All over some stupid political stunt


Potential exploitation of some of our most advanced military technology is not a political stunt. Turkey operating the S-400 and F-35, no doubt with Russian advisors, will not produce positive outcomes for either the US or other program partners.

Lockheed has seen this coming for months. I'd be willing to bet they have contingency plans for the loss of the Turkish subcontractors by now.

Will this cause a disruption? Absolutely... but I would not cripple the program, there is far too much money yet to be made.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 22:24
by marsavian
bojack_horseman wrote:
sferrin wrote:Other companies will be more than happy to pick up that work.


When?

Today?
Tomorrow?

These things don't happen quickly..

This could well grind production to a halt while alternate suppliers are tendered, contracts awarded, components made & tested etc etc.

Right when production was gaining major traction.

All over some stupid political stunt


It's not a stunt, Turkey has to make a strategic choice now and decide its future allegiances. Is it with the West as it has been for 66 years when it was previously bullied by Russia and joined NATO as a result or is it as a fully independent Middle East Muslim state with very close ties to Russia with generally antagonistic feelings to the West and Israel. It has about a year to decide. Choose wisely.

The delay was quantified earlier in the thread by Mattis ...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... it-450558/

“Removing Turkey could trigger a supply chain disruption for the US military and our partners, as well as increase other program costs,” Mattis says in his letter to the House Armed Services Committee Chairman on 7 July. “If the Turkish supply chain was disrupted today, it would result in an aircraft production break delaying delivery of 50-75 F-35s, and would take approximately 18-24 months to re-source parts and recover.”

In co-ordination with Northrop Grumman, the main fuselage manufacturer for the F-35, Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactures and assembles centre fuselages, produces composite skins and weapon bay doors, and fibre placement composite air inlet ducts. In total, ten different Turkish firms make parts for every F-35 manufactured.

Turkey plans to purchase 100 F-35As, with its first batch of 14 already contracted. A total of 30 are scheduled for delivery by the end of 2022.


I don't think it will go that far but if Turkey wants to become Iran Mk 2 best it does it now and we know where we stand before handing over our best military technology.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 06:35
by element1loop
The bottom line is the Lira has been on a slow downwards trend (i.e. losing buying power, increasing the price of all imports, fanning domestic inflation) since Erdogan gained national power from mid last decade. All that has occurred is that as Erdogan has become more and more antagonistic, and garnered more and more state power, the Lira's decline has accellerated.

This is a long-term ('secular' ... hmm) trend, and as long as Turkey remains aligned with the "Erdogan & Sons™" company trajectory, the Lira and domestic economy, and crash 'n burn domestic stock market, is not coming back up again by much.

In other words, a sustained and now rapid collapse of the Lira means Erdogan will increasingly struggle to afford ANY imported goods, especially heavy SAMS or new foreign aircraft, from ANY source.

If he gets any of these they will have to be a 'gift', not a purchase, nor a foreign loan--Turkey can't realistically do either, until the Lira reverts to a longer-term average with respect to the USD.

So it is no longer just a matter of resolving a rift between Turkey, NATO and Washington. They could resolve that and still Turkey's Turkey has priced himself out of obtaining significant F-35s, while the compounding affect on the Lira's decline lingers (and many other econmic factors are consequently played out).

Which trashes the national reserves, shrinks state revenue, strongly amps inflation, continues the protracted economic downturn, deepens the already deep stock market collapse, unhinges banks, shrinks asset prices, disrupts industry and production, freezes credit, devastates business and employment, undermines national security--and these are just the foreseeables and actuals.

In other words, the rift with Washington (and the silly claims of "economic warfare") are just another symptom--as this is not the cause, and nor is its resolution a cure-all for what is dragging Turkey and its currency down.

It's not really about S400s, F-35s, Gulen (an excuse) or a Pastor. Those are just pointy-out topical bits snagging and characterising the underlaying secular decline (pun intended) in Turkish leadership quality and its gyrating relationships. Which has simply become more acute, as Erdogan, family and sychophants, took on more and more power, especially of late. Money has voted with its feet about these developments because investor Sovereign Risk had exploded as a steady cumulative result of it all. And the Consitutional changes that have now embedded 'Erdogan & Sons™' has baked this process in, so 12 more months will not be enough to unwind the snake that's choaking Turkey, which is a domestic snake not a foreign snake. The external actions are a belated response, not a cause. He was given plenty of slack for years prior.

IMHO, the F-35 is not going to Turkey until that factor is fully sorted out, by the Turks themselves, so plan accordingly.

[PS: I hope all of the people wrongfully imprisoned get out, soon, and frankly that's a bigger factor in this mess, and a much better and less selfish reason (and lever) to take Erdogan to the woodshed than the other good reasons of an imprisoned Pastor and S400 buy, etc. Probably said too much here, sorry if I did, but that's MHO of where the F-35 issue fits in to it. i.e Erdogan will not be able to afford them, so they are off the table--move on.]

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 06:44
by Corsair1963
I also see little reason for the US to provide New F-35's to Turkey. Before they sort out this mess. As we can easily absorb the additional F-35's. While, giving the work to other partners. In short we have little to no reason to bow to Turkey and every reason not too!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 06:50
by XanderCrews
element1loop wrote:The bottom line is the Lira has been on a slow downwards trend (i.e. losing buying power, increasing the price of all imports, fanning domestic inflation) since Erdogan gained national power from mid last decade. All that has occurred is that as Erdogan has become more and more antagonistic, and garnered more andnmore state power, the Lira's decline has accellerated.

This is a long-term ('secular' ...lol) trend, and as long as Turkey remains aligned with the "Erdogan & Sons" company trajectory, the Lira and domestic economy and crash 'n burn domestic stock market is not coming back up.

In other words, a sustained and now rapid collapse of the Lira means Erdogan will increasingly struggle to afford ANY imported goods, especially heavy SAMS or new foreign aircraft, from ANY source.

If he gets any of them, they will have to be a 'gift', not a purchase, or a foreign loan--Turkey can't realistically do either until the Lira reverts to a longer term average with respect to the USD.

So it is no longer just a matter of resolving a rift between Turkey, NATO and Washington. They could resolve that and still Turkey's Turkey has priced himself out of obtaining significant F-35s while the compounding affect on the Lira's decline lingers (and many other econmic factors play out).

Which trashes national reserves, shrinks state revenue, strongly amps inflation, continues protracted economic downturn, deepens the already deep stock market collapse, unhinges banks, shrinks asset prices, disrupts industry and production, freezes credit, devastates business and employment, undermines national security--those are just to foreseeables.

In other words, the rift with Washington (and the silly claims of economic warfare) are just another symptom--this is not the cause, nor is its resolution the cure-all for what is dragging Turkey and its currency down.

It's not about really about S400s, F-35s, Gulen (the excuse) or a Pastor, those are just pointy-out topical bits snagging and characterising the underlaying secular decline (pun intended) in Turkish leadership quality. Which has simply become more acute as Erdogan, family and sychophants took on more and more power.

Money has voted with its feet about those developments, because investor Sovereign Risk exploded as a result of it. And the Consitutional changes that embedded 'Erdogan & Sons™' has baked it in, so 12 more months will not be enough to unwind the snake that's choaking Turkey, which is a domestic snake not a foreign one.

IMHO, the F-35 is not going to Turkey until that is fully sorted out by the Turks themselves, so plan accordingly.

[PS: I hope all of the people wrongfully imprisoned get out soon, and frankly that's a bigger factor in this mess, and a much better and less selfish reason (and lever) to take Erdogan to the woodshed, than the good reasons of an imprisoned Pastor and S400 buy. Probably said too much, sorry if I did, but that's MHO of where the F-35 issue fits into this.]


I knew a Sgt, USAF who was stationed in Turkey for 4 years. I expected to hear dazzling stories of where east meets west, and exotic locations. He basically knocked all the romanticism out of me when he said "Its just like Mexico" Looks like its trending that way even more now. Oh well. The world needs more crapholes I guess.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 06:55
by Corsair1963
All the more reason not to provide them with F-35's!

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 11:58
by popcorn

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 23 Aug 2018, 14:12
by spazsinbad
This would be the ASPI Turkey Marcus Hellyer article referred to in the article immediately above:
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/talki ... -the-f-35/

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 18:55
by basher54321
645x450-turkish-fighter-pilot-carries-out-first-flight-in-us-with-f-35-jet-1535483091630.jpg
Turkish pilot first F-35 Flight



Maj. Halit Oktay became the first pilot from Turkey to fly on the F-35A on Aug. 29


Turkish fighter pilot carried out the first flight in the United States with one of Turkey's new F-35 jets on August 28, Turkish Armed Forces said in a statement released late Tuesday.

Early July, the Pentagon said Turkish pilots and maintenance personnel were being trained on the F-35 fighter jet in the state of Arizona.

Late June, Turkey took delivery of its first F-35 fighter jet at a ceremony in Forth Worth, Texas.

Turkey and the U.S. have recently been at loggerheads over the former's purchase of Russian S-400 missile systems and the arrest of terror-linked American pastor Andrew Brunson.

The Trump administration had decided to delay the delivery of the warplane to Turkey, citing the pastor's case and later its purchase from the Russians.

In early August, U.S. President Donald Trump approved a defense budget law delaying delivery of F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jets to Turkey. An amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), quickly approved by Congress, prohibits F-35 sales to Turkey until the Pentagon issues a report on Turkish-American relations in 90 days.

Still, the F-35 Joint Program Office announced on Aug. 16 that it would continue to execute current program plans with all partners, including Turkey, and to abide by any future policy guidelines.

Turkey has been in the F-35 program since 1999, and the Turkish defense industry has taken an active role in the production of aircraft and invested $1.25 billion in the aircraft's development. Alp Aviation, AYESAŞ, Kale Aviation, Kale Pratt & Whitney and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) have been producing parts for the first F-35 fighter jet. AYESAŞ is also the sole provider of two key components of the plane.

Turkey plans to purchase 100 F-35 fighter jets in the coming years. Out of 100 aircraft, 30 have been approved. The country took delivery of its first F-35 fighter jet at a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas, on June 21. The first F-35 aircraft delivered is also the first fifth-generation fighter jet to enter the Turkish Air Force Command inventory.

https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/201 ... h-f-35-jet

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 30 Aug 2018, 23:18
by spazsinbad
Navy Builds Up to F-35C IOT&E; First Turkish F-35 Pilot Flies
30 Aug 2018 David Donald

"...Meanwhile, despite the temporary block on deliveries of F-35As to the Turkish air force that the U.S. government implemented earlier in the month, and despite erroneous reports that Turkish pilot training had been suspended, on August 28 the country’s first pilot to fly the F-35 took to the skies at Luke AFB, Arizona. Turkish ground technicians are also receiving training on maintenance and servicing. The initial pair of F-35As that was handed over to the Turkish air force in June was delivered to Luke AFB for training. Under pre-embargo plans, the third and fourth aircraft were also to be retained in the United States."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ilot-flies

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 26 Sep 2018, 16:52
by spazsinbad
No Change Expected in Turkey's F-35 Program Until Mattis Submits Report
26 Sep 2018 Oriana Pawlyk

"Two F-35A Joint Strike Fighters are still slated to be delivered to Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, for the Turkish pilot training program unless new direction from the Defense Department, expected in November, prohibits the move, Military.com has learned. Luke is expected to receive two more of the fifth-generation fighters for the program in early 2019, according to an industry source familiar with the matter. The base already has two jets for the training program.

Furthermore, the first two fifth-generation fighters are still on track to fly to Turkey sometime between July and September next year, barring any new evidence from Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo that the transfer must be indefinitely blocked per the 2019 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), the source said.

For now, "there has been no change to our contract or our relationship with Turkey as a partner, with Turkey as a supplier. Nothing's changed," said Greg Ulmer, vice president and general manager of the F-35 program at Lockheed Martin Corp....

..."The decision relative to the NDAA language is really government-to-government. They have to decide," Ulmer said. "Business is normal; [we're] still supporting the program."...

...Luke personnel also emphasized that the training course has not shifted or changed. "There has been no change to training or aircraft delivery at Luke Air Force Base," said 56th Fighter Wing spokeswoman Maj. Rebecca Heyse during a phone call. "Pending official guidance from [the Office of the Secretary of Defense], there has been no change to the Turkish pilot training or aircraft delivery."...

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2018/0 ... eport.html

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2018, 03:28
by popcorn
F-35 production could be set back 18-24 months should Turkey retaliate against a F-35 embargo and withhold needed components for the jet.

https://www-dailysabah-com.cdn.ampproje ... eport-says

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 07:04
by KamenRiderBlade
Maybe we should create a parallel supply chain ready for the parts that Turkey is creating in secret.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 09:58
by marsavian
Probably being already done. It was hinted at by a LMT exec in a video interview saying something about having to be ready for situations and contingencies.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 10:18
by spazsinbad
KamenRiderBlade wrote:Maybe we should create a parallel supply chain ready for the parts that Turkey is creating in secret.

I'm guessing you mean "a parallel supply chain in secret"? Turkey otherwise makes F-35 parts in public.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 10:51
by weasel1962
I think its more LM setting up a parallel supply chain in case Turkey can't (or don't want to) supply their parts... or at least that's my reading. Don't think its that simple.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2018, 18:12
by blindpilot
weasel1962 wrote:I think its more LM setting up... Don't think its that simple.


Agree it's not that simple.

If I am not mistaken, Lockheed already controls/orders the raw material parts of the entire supply chain. (for a display, the glass etc.) They do that to maximize bulk pricing. All suppliers to some extent are more assembly plants than vertical manufacturing (like the railroad-steel monopolies of old, which even owned the coal mines). While that's not 100% true it does give an insight into the supply chain process. So Lockheed can cut off/renegotiate/redirect (contract issues aside for the moment) the raw materials to any parts manufacturer. They manage all of that.

So even sole sources are integrated into the supply chain in ways we don't always see. It's a bit messy to sort this out in real production. A problem with bulk titanium or chip supplies from one place can impact a "part production" order on another continent.

As I understand it, Lockheed actually buys(contracts and pays for) these raw material level products, delivered to a "parts manufacturer." Thus the "parts" for the "parts" are already in complete Lockheed control. (It's the only reason a supplier can make the part at a given price point) Those raw material suppliers ship where Lockheed tells them to ship, or they don't get paid. Lockheed also controls via quality control systems much of the machinery (robots etc.) used to make systems. They often even buy and supervise installation of the tools. The economic benefit to a supplier is often little more than the labor and infrastructure costs/margins.

All of this is to say that much preparatory planning can be done behind the scenes without impacting or even visibility to the existing supply chain. But if Mattis says 18-24 months, that is probably a real estimate. The best they could do is to try and do some of those months of work ahead of a base schedule. Lockheed could do much of that unseen. That means if an aircraft is scheduled to ship to Turkey in 12 months, there is ... at best .. still a potential 6 month impact to the delivery schedule.

Yeah it's not that simple, but Lockheed still controls a lot of the issues/complications.

FWIW,
BP

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 05:28
by element1loop
blindpilot wrote:All of this is to say that much preparatory planning can be done behind the scenes without impacting or even visibility to the existing supply chain. But if Mattis says 18-24 months, that is probably a real estimate. The best they could do is to try and do some of those months of work ahead of a base schedule. Lockheed could do much of that unseen. That means if an aircraft is scheduled to ship to Turkey in 12 months, there is ... at best .. still a potential 6 month impact to the delivery schedule.

Yeah it's not that simple, but Lockheed still controls a lot of the issues/complications.

FWIW,
BP


Disruptive, but if all the existing airframes are bought to 3F in that time-frame that will help to hedge a delay and still deliver rising F-35 fleet combat airframes and deliverable capability.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 05:37
by marsavian
I suspect the Turks will still produce the parts even after being denied the F-35 just for economic reasons. The transition away from Turkish involvement may in the end be quite smooth because after all they are still technically a NATO ally even if they want to be more independent and free thinking in their actions.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 10 Oct 2018, 17:53
by steve2267
When I worked in the launch vehicle biz, we were always cognizant of single-points-of-failure and did our best to avoid them if at all possible. One of the reasons for the creation of United Launch Alliance was to avoid a single-point-of-failure in the US Government launch capability -- if Delta IV had an uh-oh, Atlas V could still launch payloads whilst an investigation discovered and corrected whatever went wrong on the other vehicle.

I would like to think the LM executives, being smart folks (generally) and being paid to think about these sorts of things, have some contingency plans figured out for replacing any single supplier for all the bits on F-35 if something goes hiccup. IMO, 18-24 interruption in production if the Turks have to be cut out is unacceptable, especially since this problem has been percolating -- in public -- for the past 12+ months. To me, if that is the case, some executive(s) have not been doing their job. But what do I know... I just crunched numbers.

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 11 Oct 2018, 21:46
by marsavian
Pastor being freed for economic relief.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... -us-pastor

Re: The Turkey problem

Unread postPosted: 12 Oct 2018, 00:10
by lamoey
steve2267 wrote:When I worked in the launch vehicle biz, we were always cognizant of single-points-of-failure and did our best to avoid them if at all possible. One of the reasons for the creation of United Launch Alliance was to avoid a single-point-of-failure in the US Government launch capability -- if Delta IV had an uh-oh, Atlas V could still launch payloads whilst an investigation discovered and corrected whatever went wrong on the other vehicle.

I would like to think the LM executives, being smart folks (generally) and being paid to think about these sorts of things, have some contingency plans figured out for replacing any single supplier for all the bits on F-35 if something goes hiccup. IMO, 18-24 interruption in production if the Turks have to be cut out is unacceptable, especially since this problem has been percolating -- in public -- for the past 12+ months. To me, if that is the case, some executive(s) have not been doing their job. But what do I know... I just crunched numbers.


Normal monetary thinking does not apply to would be dictators, as the Turkish economy and currency is a living proof of these days. They may just as well stopp delivering parts to blackmail the rest of us.