The Turkey problem

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
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mixelflick

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Unread post28 Nov 2019, 16:18

So they're not getting the F-35, and if the Aviationist article is accurate - they're only going to be ordering/building more S-400's. The S-400 ain't cheap, so I'm wondering if Turkey can afford both a state of the art air defense/air force filled with squadrons of modern fighters.

36 SU-35's is no small number, but it's quite a few less than what they have now which is what, 200+ F-16's?
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madrat

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Unread post28 Nov 2019, 21:39

Turkey 2019 is Iran 1979 all over again. So much for secular governments in that corner of the world.

I hope Turkey enjoys the other sanctions coming down the pipe.
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optimist

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Unread post29 Nov 2019, 01:21

notkent wrote:Turkey is testing their new S-440 using US made planes.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... ns-threats


Image

You may not be aware that Turkey doesn't have any F-35A there.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post29 Nov 2019, 06:09

lol.. that's the point :doh:
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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optimist

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Unread post29 Nov 2019, 13:00

SpudmanWP wrote:lol.. that's the point :doh:

It is still a pointless image. They don't need a physical F-35 there. They were a full partner and given the keys to the safe. Turkey has the full specs on the F-35, including all the pole RCS data, They have everything every other partner has, up to this point. They would have pallets of data. They also manufacture the composites and can set up RCS testing. They don't need a flying plane to physically test radar specs on it.
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ricnunes

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Unread post29 Nov 2019, 13:12

optimist wrote:It is still a pointless image. They don't need a physical F-35 there. They are a full partner and given the keys to the safe. Turkey has the full specs on the F-35, including all the pole RCS data, They have everything up to this point. They would have pallets of data. They also manufacture the composites and can set up RCS testing. They don't need a flying plane to test the radar specs on it.


Perhaps you could be right regarding the aircraft's (F-35) "pure" RCS values versus the detection range of the S-400.
Even we "mere mortal" with our computers can make some resonably good estimates regarding this, I guess.

However the F-35 also has other tricks "under the sleeve" in order to further hide from and/or disrupt the S-400, namely EW.
I strongly doubt that Turkey has any access to classified data regarding the F-35's Barracuda EW system (no way the US/UK would give this to an ally such as Turkey). So and with this in mind and IMO, the only way for Turkey (and indirectly Russia) to test the F-35's EW abilities against the S-400 would be to have a physical F-35 plane flying against a physical S-400 system (and against something that fully models a physical S-400 system).

My 2 cents, of course.
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mixelflick

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Unread post29 Nov 2019, 16:52

madrat wrote:Turkey 2019 is Iran 1979 all over again. So much for secular governments in that corner of the world.

I hope Turkey enjoys the other sanctions coming down the pipe.


Agree wholeheartedly..

Not selling them the F-35 is the right thing to do. Some then proposed selling a "downgraded" version, to appease Israel. That would be even worse IMO. All the program needs now is for a Turkish F-35 to get trounced by a lesser jet and boom - there go your foreign sales. I say all or nothing, and in this case nothing it shall be.

Ergodan will look back on this and realize it was a terribe mistake. Fielding enough S-400 batteries will leave little left over for SU-35's or other high end air superiority jets. To make matters even worse, those S-400 batteries have to contend with Israeli F-35's. Doing the math on that, I think his S-400's are going to get creamed. So now he'll have no meaningful number of fighters to deal with Israeli incursions, along with a swiss cheese air defense network that he paid dearly for. And I don't just mean in dollars.

As I've said before they've made their bed, now they're going to have to sleep in it...
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notkent

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Unread post30 Nov 2019, 13:47

optimist wrote:It is still a pointless image. They don't need a physical F-35 there. They were a full partner and given the keys to the safe. Turkey has the full specs on the F-35, including all the pole RCS data, They have everything every other partner has, up to this point. They would have pallets of data. They also manufacture the composites and can set up RCS testing. They don't need a flying plane to physically test radar specs on it.


If Turkey had both S-400, F-35s and Russian technicians/engineers they would be able to run series of tests under controlled conditions that Russian would not be able to do otherwise. The F-35 will be flying in the range of Russian SAMs but it is possible to not use certain counter measures, like cyber attacks until they are needed during actual combat missions.

It would also open up the possibility of getting IFF codes, mission data and examining all of the subsystems installed on the F-35 to look for limitations and ways to exploit them.

Today everything is networked so that sensors can hand off targets and information to each other. This is fine if they are all allied nations SAMs, sensors and planes. Having an incompatible system in the loop raises the possibility of friendly fire incidents
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