The Turkey problem

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airforces_freak

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Unread post13 Jan 2018, 03:36

Turkey is being misread by many in the Western world and this is the primary reason for the crisis of confidence between Turkey and Western Institutions.

First and foremost, Turkey is not BECOMING an Islamic Republic it ALWAYS was an Islamic Republic. An Islamic Republic which was Constitutionally Lacite/Secular but which also had Sunni Islam under Constitutional protection through the Diyanet/Presidency of Religious Affairs. The former is well known within Western circles but the later is always conveniently ignored.

Turkey's return to the Middle East is accordingly being misinterpreted by some within the West as a return to neo-Ottomanism. Yet modern Turkey has no imperial ambitions- imperial in the sense of regaining lost territories. Turkey is looking for spheres of influence and new markets. It no longer wants to rely on Western markets nor does it merely want to be blindly anchored to the West. As former PM Ahmet Davutoglu put it Turkey is seeking to create pax-Ottomana within former Ottoman territories. Just like the British have created the Commonwealth of Nations. A trading bloc that would increase trade amongst former Ottoman possessions.

The AKP is a Conservative Islamic Party ELECTED to office on numerous occasions by the Turkish people. It is akin to the Christian Democrats in Germany. It's primary objective during election campaigning was to improve Turkey's economy which it has already done and open up Turkey to the world through Turkey-centric foreign policy. Not be limited to Western markets. The Turkish people voted for this and the AKP is merely delivering.

The AKP's voter base was also fed up of being bullied around by the staunch leftists which banned the headscarf and curtailed the fundamental human rights of conservative Turks.

Now for those who think Turkey will become the new Iran. This is furthest from the truth and a narrative put forward by political opponents of the AKP to instil fear and mistrust.

Turkey is merely displaying a Turkey centric foreign policy. Its primary objective is Turkish interests and good relations with both East and West. US Policies in the Middle East has meant that Russia now rules this part of the world. Accordingly, Turkey is obliged to have some level of normality with Russia.

Now when we come to the JSF program I would like to draw your attention to a few points:

Turkey's S-400 acquisition is merely an excuse to exert pressure on Turkey and keep it anchored within the Western sphere. The US does not want Turkey to display a Turkey-centric foreign policy which has good relations with both East and West. Both NATO members Greece and Bulgaria have S-300's in their inventories. Although, they were not intentionally acquired (in Greece's case) and acquired prior to NATO membership in Bulgaria's case, 2 NATO members already operate Russia ABM systems.
Turkey is not a mere purchaser of the F-35 but a JSF consortium Member State whose industry has been heavily involved in all aspects of the program.
Turkey has already stated that it has many alternatives to the F-35 and that it will not acquire it at all costs: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/economy/tu ... ts-2818837
Turkey has also stated unequivocally that Turkey may remove US radars at Kurecik if its F-35s are not delivered on schedule. The US has an AN-TPY-2 radar that was set up by the U.S. in 2012 at Malatya- Kürecik, Turkey which keeps Iran and the region under a watchful eye: https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turke ... le-2808663

Thus, the F-35 acquisition by Turkey will also determine its future in NATO and the Western sphere. Should the F-35 not be sold to Turkey this would only crystallise Turkey's pivot to the East.

Through Foreign Military Sales the US has SOME level of control over the arms it sells. If Turkey is pushed into Russia's lap for 5th Generation aircraft it will only mean that the US has ZERO control over Turkish air assets and a more independent Turkey. Policy makers in Washington are well aware of this and hence why the threat to not sell Turkey the F-35 has been rebuffed by the State Department and White House.
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madrat

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Unread post13 Jan 2018, 04:22

Considering the Sino influences over Turkey, the pivot East is inevitably going to happen regardless of the F-35 ultimatum. Best cut losses up front.
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nutshell

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 01:46

It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.
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optimist

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 01:58

It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..oh and those people from sh*tholes who aren't white. Why are we even talking to germany and japan, let along letting them have guns, don't you remember ww2 [/sarc]

it's not rocket science why the turks has gone russian sams, US dictates how a weapon of theirs can be used. There is a neighbour with western tech and US support, that doesn't play nice with others. If it were new zealand, I'd want aussies to have russian sams too.
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steve2267

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 02:43

optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.
Take an F-16, add a dollop of A-7, a big gob of F-22, sprinkle on some AV-8B, stir well, then bake. What do you get? An F-35.
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neptune

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 02:45

nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.


....you may wish to add Israel, with their operating F-35s!
:)
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neptune

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 02:49

steve2267 wrote:
optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.


....all of us "others" are a distant #2 behind the Shias in Iran!
:)
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element1loop

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 02:58

airforces_freak wrote: ... US Policies in the Middle East has meant that Russia now rules this part of the world. ...


Much overstated.

The Russians are providing support to their ally in Damascus to protect the Russian interests within a fractionated part of one ME state, and as per usual, selling missiles and air platforms to ME states.
Last edited by element1loop on 16 Jan 2018, 03:16, edited 1 time in total.
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steve2267

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 03:00

neptune wrote:
steve2267 wrote:
optimist wrote:It started racist based and it's continuing along those lines. Well done guys, but lets not leave out the Hindu, Buddhists and other funny religions..


Umm, not to pour gasoline on a fire, but... of what nutshell writes is not racist based, it is religious-based. There is a difference, isn't there? Also, from my history, certainly recent history, I do not recall issues between Christianity / Hinduism / Buddhism / "other funny religions". But the Muslims do seem to have an issue with playing nice with the other children in the sandbox.


....all of us "others" are a distant #2 behind the Shias in Iran!
:)


I'm having trouble keeping it all straight anymore. I know the Shias and the Sunnis are seemingly always at each others throats, but which one, or is it both, that can't play nice with the other children in the sandbox?
Take an F-16, add a dollop of A-7, a big gob of F-22, sprinkle on some AV-8B, stir well, then bake. What do you get? An F-35.
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airforces_freak

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 04:48

nutshell wrote:It's not that hard to understand Turkey and the West are not meant to be together.

The F35 should not be sold to a country that has an agenda in complete opposition to the one of its allies.

Turkey is flirting with our "enemies", the dagger is ready to strike, it's undeniable.

Then let's be real: you cant mix muslims and christians
It just doesnt work.


Not quite.

No matter how much one wants to reduce the petro-wars to religion no one needs eyes to see that religion is the pretext under which one nation steals the natural resources of another nation.

Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.

Someone has been trying desperately to provoke a Christian vs Muslim war for quite sometime now and I am having trouble figuring out who it will benefit...the Jews, the Buddhists or some other group. Still cannot figure it out.
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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 04:57

A good read
Turkey Wants to Link Its F-35 Computer Brains to Networks That Will Include Russian Systems
Turkish and American authorities are both worried about military secrets leaking out, but for very different reasons.
BY JOSEPH TREVITHICKJANUARY 15, 2018
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... an-systems

The Turkish military says it wants to make sure there is a secure link between its future F-35 Joint Strike Fighters and the Turkish Air Force’s main computer networks that will prevent the inadvertent sharing of classified information. This comes as many of the countries involved in the international stealth fighter program increasingly worry about the security of the jet’s main data transfer setup and as the United States expresses concern about Turkey’s growing ties with Russia.

Earlier in January 2018, Turkey’s Undersecretariat for Defense Industries, the country’s top military procurement arm, also known by its Turkish acronym SSM, launched a competition to buy the necessary equipment and software to connect the F-35s to the rest of the Air Force’s systems, Defense News reported. SSM’s cybersecurity and electronic warfare division is in charge of the project and is asking for anyone interested in submitting a bid to do so by the end of February 2018.

“The program involves safe connection of information systems elements between the F-35 aircraft and the Air Forces’ information systems network as well as safe sharing of classified information between these systems,” SSM said, according to Defense News. “The political idea is to earn as much indigenous software space as possible while at the same time remaining within the [JSF] program,” an anonymous source also told the outlet.


Though it’s not entirely clear from the report, the goal of the Turkish effort seems to be gain more control over what information goes into and comes out of its F-35s, improving its ability to share information across the country's air force. This is particularly important given the Joint Strike Fighter's sensors' ability to vacuum up important information, especially about electronic emitters such as enemy radars.

Being able to rapidly move that data around a variety of networks would give pilots in aircraft with less capable radars and other sensors a significantly improved view of the battlefield during missions, as well as allowing commanders to better plan future missions. Finding ways to link the F-35, especially using its stealthy Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL), to fourth generation aircraft has been a major goal for the U.S. military services flying the jets, as well. Joint Strike Fighters have coordinated with older planes using the non-stealthy Link-16 data link during past exercises.

There is also a concern that without a filter, the Joint Strike Fighter’s cloud-based computer brain, the Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), might automatically send sensitive data to the United States or other partners in the program, or to the manufacturer Lockheed Martin. ALIS’s main job is to collect data on the jets’ figurative health, but monitoring information from various sensors about parts that are in need of routine maintenance or may be likely to fail for some other reason. Ground crews download these details from the aircraft via a secure laptop and then upload them into a larger system that, at least in theory, is supposed to help streamline the maintenance process and identify points of concern in need of improvement or upgrades in the future.

On top of that, though, it’s how Lockheed Martin plans to release software patches for the jets. Most importantly, the system acts as the load point for mission data packages, containing route plans, locations of potential threats and hazards, and other similar information.

Many of the countries involved in the Joint Strike Fighter Program are increasingly fearful that ALIS might be scraping information from those packages during uploading or downloading of other data and that it might end up on the system’s main servers or just be worryingly vulnerable to cyber attacks. Italy and Norway now have a shared software laboratory at the U.S. Air Force’s Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, which is working on a secure filter to prevent any unauthorized transfers. Australia has also expressed interest in its own such firewall.

There is also the possibility the United States could use ALIS in the future as an unprecedented export control. It could allow Lockheed Martin, at the direction of the U.S. government, to disconnect a country’s F-35s from vital updates and potentially disrupting the jets’ operational capabilities remotely, if necessary. American authorities might also be able to use the network as a vector for a cyber attack to more completely disable to the aircraft.

For Turkey, as with the other countries pursuing national-level solutions to these data sharing and sovereignty issues, the main problem is that they will all still have to use ALIS in the day-to-day operation of their F-35s. So far, only Israel has managed secure the rights from Lockheed Martin to install its own software on the jets that would allow it to operate independently of the company’s cloud-based network.

Some Joint Strike Fighter program members may be able to negotiate their own country-specific arrangements with Lockheed Martin with the U.S. government’s blessing. It seems very unlikely that either the Maryland-headquartered defense contractor or U.S. authorities would be willing to extend the same privileges to Turkey, at least in the near term.

Relations between Washington and Ankara have steadily cooled since 2014 in light of the U.S. military’s increasing support for Kurdish groups in Iraq and Syria in the fight against ISIS. Turkish authorities see the Kurdish People's Protection Units in Syria, also known by the acronym YPG, in particular as indistinct from the Kurdish Workers’ Party, or PKK, in Turkey.

Both the United States and Turkey have designated the PKK as a terrorist group. However, the U.S. government vehemently disagrees that the YPG and PKK are inseparably linked and that the former has plans to seize Turkish territory. The YPG form the core of the Syrian Democratic Forces, the main U.S.-backed force in Syria, which has been instrumental in routing ISIS.

Ties between the two countries only deteriorated more in 2016, when Air Force officers attempted to overthrow Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in a coup. Erdoğan and his political allies promptly launched a massive crackdown, arresting tens of thousands of people, and accused the United States of sheltering the man they allege to have been behind the putsch, Fethullah Gülen. It's worth noting that the U.S. military still keeps a stockpile of approximately 50 B61 nuclear gravity bombs at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, which has increasingly become a separate security issue.

But the series of events also led to warming ties between Turkey and Russia, though. In July 2017, Erdoğan confirmed his country would buy the Russian S-400 air defense system, prompting statements of concern both from the United States and the country’s other NATO allies.

With regards to the F-35, there is a distinct concern that Kremlin may be able to exploit the deal, which will reportedly involve some level of technical cooperation with Turkey’s defense industry, to see how its anti-aircraft system fares against the fifth generation fighter. Russia could then use that information to refine and expand its existing anti-stealth research and development work. There have been similar concerns about plans to add the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia to the Joint Strike Fighter program.

“We’re going to have to start looking at, if they are going to go through with this [S-400 purchase], how we can be interoperable in the future,” Heidi Grant, Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force for International Affairs, told Defense News in November 2017. “But right now, I can tell you our policies do not allow us to be interoperable with that system.”

“It’s a significant concern, not only to the United States, because we need to protect this high end technology, fifth-generation technology … [but for] all of our partners and allies that have already purchased the F-35,” she added. Turkish officials have repeatedly said they have no plans to back out of the deal, unlike in 2015 when they cancelled a similar plan to buy Chinese FD-2000 air defense systems in the face of pressure from the United States and NATO.

There had already been some calls to block sales of the F-35 to Turkey in 2017 following a incident outside the Turkish embassy in Washington, in which Erdoğan’s personal security detail attacked Kurdish activists peacefully protesting, triggering a brawl and censure from city and U.S. federal authorities.

In July 2017, David Cicilline, a Democrat Representative from Rhode Island and a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, proposed an amendment in the Fiscal Year 2018 defense budget that would have halted the sale of Joint Strike Fighters to Turkey. This did not make it into the final version of the law.

Limiting Turkey’s access to the F-35 program may not be an easy prospect in the future, either, as a result of efforts to incentivize partners to join in the first place. Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is responsible for the construction of portions of the jet’s center fuselage and could service the aircraft’s Pratt and Whitney F135 engine for other NATO operators in the future. In total, 10 different Turkish firms have contributed in some fashion to the project.

Any restrictions of Turkish involvement in the program could therefore negatively affect both the construction of jets now and the ability for NATO allies to sustain their own F-35 fleets. At the same time, Turkey has been pursuing an indigenous fifth generation fighter jet, the TFX, in cooperation with BAE Systems in the United Kingdom.


As such, the Turkish government could conceivably threaten to back out of the Joint Strike Fighter program entirely, and focus on the TFX instead. Of course, this would significantly delay when Turkey’s Air Force would get its first fifth generation fighter jets, given the protracted and expensive development cycles for such aircraft. At present, TAI doesn’t expect to have a flyable prototype until at least 2023 and the quality and capabilities of that aircraft are still very much up in the air. It is doubtful that it will feature as advanced a capability set as the F-35 offers.

It would also squander significant existing Turkish investment in the program, including plans to buy at least 100 F-35As. There are also reports that the country’s military might be interested in purchasing a number of short and vertical take-off and landing capable B models. Lockheed Martin says Turkish defense contractors could expect to see a windfall of up to $12 billion from supporting the Joint Strike Fighter project, as well.

Though 2017, the U.S. military’s main F-35 Joint Program Office said it had no immediate plans to change its cooperation with Turkey, though they did say there were reviewing the issues at play. With the S-400 deal moving ahead and Turkey now pushing for greater control over how the jets will interact with its other information networks, there may be a greater impetus to study the implications of Turkish policies on the rest of the Joint Strike Fighter program.

How the situation plays out could be an important test case for how the F-35 project manages increasing concerns from partner nations about the heavily intertwined nature of both its computer networks and its physical industrial base.

Contact the author: jtrevithickpr@gmail.com
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white_lightning35

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 05:16

airforces_freak wrote:
Not quite.

No matter how much one wants to reduce the petro-wars to religion no one needs eyes to see that religion is the pretext under which one nation steals the natural resources of another nation.

Can you please tell me when an Islamic Republic invaded the US? Whereas the US has been in the Middle East for the past 100 years.

Someone has been trying desperately to provoke a Christian vs Muslim war for quite sometime now and I am having trouble figuring out who it will benefit...the Jews, the Buddhists or some other group. Still cannot figure it out.


Hmm yes. Religion, which has been around far longer than the concept of a nation-state, is just used to steal things from other countries. I see.

"When has an Islamic republic invaded the US"?

When has an Islamic republic been capable of invading the U.S.? Hint: never. I'm sure an ant would eat me if it could, but they can't, so I point them out to my dog and he eats them as a protein supplement. Such is life.

I am so annoyed by those who think that those without the capability to influence things are somehow innocent and without fault. Is suriname truly full of amazingly wonderful people, or are they just not able to do something very important and bad?

"Some one has been desperately trying to provoke a Muslim vs Christian war"

Read the Quran and you might understand why there might be conflicts.

I personally don't believe Jews should be killed on sight, so I guess that makes me an enemy of Muhammad.

Perhaps we need to invent a better ant spray.
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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 05:31

There are some nutter Muslims. The US has more trouble with nutter Christians at home. But remind me again who had a 500 year party in the ME? Some need to read the bible more, it's pretty vicious, Some may even think of the spanish for an example.
Last edited by optimist on 16 Jan 2018, 05:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 05:41

"party"?
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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optimist

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Unread post16 Jan 2018, 05:51

Would "adventure and debauchery by fanatic Christians" be more appropriate?
http://www.ftarchives.net/foote/crimes/c9.htm
Last edited by optimist on 16 Jan 2018, 06:00, edited 1 time in total.
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