Solomon makes a bigger fool of himself

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6019
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post20 May 2017, 05:19

rheonomic wrote:Image


Also this:

Image

Solomon is the guy who just spent years ranting about what a disaster the JSF is, and even called for disbandment of the entire USMC air wing, and he wasn't capable of rebutting an article from business insider. His skin is so thin, that this self proclaimed "Marine" banned anyone who disagreed with him.
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6019
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post20 May 2017, 05:29

pmi wrote:No, he was originally relatively pro F-35. He flip flopped 3-4 years ago.


I did mention "both sides" hes been ranting for 8 or so. Ironically for both LOL

I don't recall what the tipping point was, but that was also the same time he started becoming more argumentative & emotional.


He flipped sides when the EFV was canceled. In his brain if the F-35 was canceled the USMC would suddenly have money to buy it or a replacement.I pointed out on several occasions, (before I was banned) that Marine Aviation is paid for with BISOG, or Navy money. I even provided official documentation that proved as much. I was declared a high ranking DC insider working for HQ USMC before being banned. Which again just goes to show he was never A Marine. Me pointing out basic facts got me labeled a Colonel LOL :D I used the word "mate" in another post under a different name and he was then convinced I was Australian. I told him i wasnt but he daif using mate proved it, and he knew bikers in aus. that could come and get me and I'm not joking. I told him ok good luck. Being safe in TX, USA. Not DC or Aus.


I assume in Solomons world being able to operate a bolt action rifle would make me Carlos Hathcock, and operating an MP3 player a member of The Presidents Own. LOL

I wouldn't be surprised if he suddenly figured out that hyperbolic negativity generated more attention. All of the anti wackjobs appear to have set up shop there. I've seen posts from Carlton Meyer & even good 'ole Mike Sparks has made appearances.

Mike Mother Flippin Gavin Sparks


Its like a retard malcontent jamboree
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5444
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post29 May 2017, 18:52

Apparently the guy over at defense-aerospace is off his meds and has gone full retard:

"EDITOR’S NOTE: To balance what is stated above, it should be noted that the F-35 is also an attempt by the United States to destroy Europe’s combat aircraft industry.

It is also an attempt to control, thanks to the F-35’s Autonomic Logistic Information System (ALIS), the operations of allied F-35s, any of which can be grounded through ALIS.

Finally, it also impinges on the national sovereignty of F-35 operators, none of which – with the notable and unacceptable exception of Israel, which is not even a program partner – can access the F-35’s software source codes nor undertake major overhaul operations or modifications on their own."
"There I was. . ."
Offline
User avatar

geforcerfx

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 853
  • Joined: 10 Feb 2014, 02:46

Unread post29 May 2017, 19:29

Middle+eastern+does+not+mean+a+muslim+middle+_9a43302de5a6ab055bc3fd3a3a2323e8.jpg
Offline

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8396
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post30 May 2017, 19:45

DA's latest hit piece is predictably light on logic, and for that matter.. math. He included Long Lead, Development, IOT&E, Partner unique (ie paid for by partners and NOT the US), Support, O&M costs for every F-35 ever built (Concurrency & Block 3F updates), and even LL items for Lot 10 into his Lot 9 Procurement "calculations".

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 4206m.html
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23492
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post30 May 2017, 21:45

SpudmanWP wrote:DA's latest hit piece is predictably light on logic, and for that matter.. math. He included Long Lead, Development, IOT&E, Partner unique (ie paid for by partners and NOT the US), Support, O&M costs for every F-35 ever built (Concurrency & Block 3F updates), and even LL items for Lot 10 into his Lot 9 Procurement "calculations".

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... 4206m.html

'SWP' I have no doubt about your explanations over the years about this issue. Do you have links to 'official' explanations about how the advertised price is calculated please, rather than this bogus Briganti avalanche of contracts, which others find impressive. TIA.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

magitsu

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 432
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post30 May 2017, 22:00

This is a bit old, before Lot 10 finalized prices:

3,397,703,267 (USAF share) / 44 F-35A for USA = 77,220,529 apiece
http://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/C ... le/1012500

USAF's long lead costs for LRIP 10's 44 F-35A planes was 227,666,000. Or 5,174,227 each.
http://www.defense.gov/News/Contracts/C ... cle/606863

USAF paid 77,220,529 + 5,174,227. Total: 82,394,756 each.

Dragon029 did the calculation for the engine by first comparing engine included price of Lot 8 and the price of airframe. Lot 8 engine 13.2 million.
http://aviationweek.com/defense/pentago ... rip-8-deal & http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /70392734/

2.6% reduction to CTOL engine Lot 9/10 from Lot 8. Engine cost 12.85 million.
http://breakingdefense.com/2016/07/when ... ines-plus/

Engine ~13 million since the calculation was slightly butchered

So this is how we ended up with ~$95 million some six months ago.
You can continue from here by adding e.g. concurrency costs if you deem it necessary.
Offline

bojack_horseman

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 211
  • Joined: 02 Jun 2016, 19:51
  • Location: Ireland

Unread post30 May 2017, 22:20

magitsu wrote:Engine ~13 million since the calculation was slightly butchered



Very close.

The long lead & main contract are on the DOD site, dates being: 30th April 2015 & 7th of July 2016

Prices were (for the 44 USAF units you mentioned)

Long lead: 64,015,312 for 44 units 1,454,893 each
Main contract: 558,411,024 for 44 units @ 12,691,159 each

total cost: $14,146,052
Offline

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8396
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post30 May 2017, 22:45

There are the basics that Long Lead items are included in the final contracted price. This is even shown in the annual budget breakdown. I'll try and find specific language to that affect, but that is the normal acquisition process and is backed up by SAR & budget numbers.

Looking at the listed contracts that he was posting and you can see that they cover a lot more than production. Here are some of the most egregious examples of his complete lack of logic/intellectual honesty:

$431,322,997 modification to the previously awarded Lot IX F-35 Lightening II advance acquisition contract () for the procurement of production non-recurring items. These items include special tooling and special test equipment items that are critical to meeting current and future production rates
Just as the recent production improvement contract shows, the JPO contracts with LM to improve production that will save money over the next 30+ years of production. It's not about Lot9 .

$430,878,490 cost-plus-incentive-fee, fixed-price-incentive-firm contract for non-air vehicle spares, support equipment, Autonomic Logistics Information System hardware and software upgrades, supply chain management, full mission simulators and non-recurring engineering services in support of low-rate initial production Lot 9
Again, more stuff that is either support or spares, ie non-flyaway items. Items like the simulators are bought in the beginning of the program but not the middle or end. Lot 10 has 2, 11 has 8, and 12 has none.

$120,555,991 modification to the previously awarded low-rate initial production Lot IX F-35 Lightning II advance acquisition contract () to procure the non-recurring engineering effort necessary to develop build-to-print packages by variant (, , ), to provide Group A and Group A enabler provisions to support future Band 2/5 capabilities of the.
Development

$64,500,000 modification to a previously awarded advanced acquisition contract (N00019-15-C-0003) for long lead materials and efforts associated with the production of the low-rate initial production 11 JapaneseF-35 air systems for the government of Japan under the Foreign Military Sales program.
This is Lot 11 LL Items FFS

$26,450,000 modification to firm-fixed-price delivery order 0031 against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020). This modification provides for low-rate initial production Lot 9 air vehicle initial spares to include F-35 aloft spares packages required to support the air vehicle delivery schedule for the Marine Corps.

$16,497,297 modification to delivery order 0031 previously placed against basic ordering agreement N00019-14-G-0020. This modification provides for deployable spares packages in support of the low-rate initial production Lot 9aircraft for the Marine Corps.
Initial & deployable Spares

$743,169,377 fixed-price-incentive, firm target and cost-plus-fixed-fee modification to the previously awarded low-rate initial production Lot 9 F-35 Lightening II advance acquisition contract (). This modification provides additional funding and will establish not-to-exceed (NTE) prices for diminishing manufacturing and material shortages redesign and development, estimated post production concurrency changes and country unique requirements. In addition, this modification will establish NTE prices for one F-35A aircraft and one F-35B aircraft for a non-U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) participant in the F-35 program.
non-recurring updates & redev.

$9,533,512 not-to-exceed, undefinitized modification to a previously awarded low-rate initial production Lot 9 F-35Lightening II advanced acquisition contract (). This modification provides for the delivery of hardware and engineering services for the government of Japan.
$9 million for Japan for setting up their FACO.

$137,834,819 modification to a previously awarded cost-plus-incentive-fee contract () to provide additional funding for affordability-based cost reduction initiatives in support of low-rate initial production Lot 9Lightening II .
More cost reduction initiatives that will benefit the program for 30+ years.

$110,515,999 cost-plus-fixed-fee delivery order against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020) for the procurement and installation of 281 retrofit modification kits to incorporate into designated aircraft and supporting subsystems that are critical to meeting F-35 requirements.

$28,842,000 not-to-exceed, cost-plus-fixed-fee delivery order against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020). This delivery order provides for air vehicle retrofit modifications associated with the F-35 fuel tank overpressure engineering change proposal in support of the Air Force, and the governments of Australia, Italy, the Netherlands, and Norway.
Here's a big one. He included concurrency costs that cover the first 281and applied all that cost to just the Lot9 . Note that Concurrency costs are covered under O&M, not procurement.

$311,399,980 contract for undefinitized delivery order 5503 against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020) for the F-35Lighting II Block 3F upgrade for the Air Force, Marine Corps, Navy, and the government of the United Kingdom.

$17,599,996 not-to-exceed delivery order (550302) against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020). This order provides for the procurement of retrofit modification kits and associated engineering installation services in support of the Block 3F upgrade of two F-35 aircraft for non-Department of Defense (DoD) participants.

$47,000,000 for undefinitized delivery order 0026 against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020). This order provides for non-recurring effort and integration tasks required to operate a hardware-in-the-loop laboratory used to build, modify, verify and validate, and distribute mission data file sets for the .
Block upgrades are O&M, not procurement.

$101,970,569 for cost-plus-incentive-fee delivery order 0026 against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020). This order definitizes a previously awarded undefinitized contract action and provides for additional non-recurring effort and integration efforts required in support of the F-35 Reprogramming Center West. Efforts will include the production of software data loads for laboratory testing, planning for verification and validation (V&V) test, conduct technical support of the test, design, build, and delivery of V&V modification kits and mission data file generation tools for the Foreign Military Sales customers.
This is the reprogramming center, not the F-35 itself.

$136,588,895 for firm-fixed-price delivery order 0001 against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020). This modification provides for low-rate initial production Lot 10 air vehicle initial spares to include F-35 common spares; ,and F-35 unique spares; and aloft spares packages/deployment spares
Really, Lot 10 spares???

$64,686,522 for firm-fixed-priced delivery order N0001917F0108 against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020). This order procures work on the integrated core processor in order to alleviate diminishing manufacturing sources constraints projected underproduction Lot 15 for the Air Force
FFS, Lot 15!!!

$581,798,359 firm-fixed-price delivery order (0132) against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-14-G-0020). This modification provides for air vehicle initial spares to include F-35 common spares; ,and F-35 unique spares,
More spares.. At least he got the Lot right.

$109,563,735 modification to cost-plus-fixed-fee delivery order 5503 issued previously against basic ordering agreement N00019-14-G-0020. This modification provides for the procurement of 567 modification kits for offboard system hardware and turnaround assets, and also recurring labor for the completion of hardware and software upgrades in support of the F-35 Lighting III Block 3F upgrade
Last but not least... More Block upgrades which are O&M related, not procurement.


My point is that the JPO has always appropriately used Flyway cost when comparing manufacturing efficiency. DA knows this but chooses to purposefully lie about the annual F-35 cost. I am beginning to seriously think this guy works for Airbus or Boeing. Either that or has too much homework from his Kindergarten class to do any proper research.
Last edited by SpudmanWP on 30 May 2017, 23:23, edited 4 times in total.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8396
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post30 May 2017, 22:46

bojack_horseman wrote:total cost: $14,146,052


That's not how contracting works. Long lead costs are included in the final contract, not in addition to.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23492
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post30 May 2017, 23:12

'SWP' and others - thanks for explanations. It is sad that some believe Briganti about the price add up; and it is difficult to believe that they think that the JPO and governments buying the F-35 have been lying about the price all these years.

It is also outrageous that after all these years the US grubbymint cannot spell lighting/lightening LIGHTNING for gorsake.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

nutshell

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 458
  • Joined: 04 May 2016, 13:37

Unread post31 May 2017, 00:04

sferrin wrote:Apparently the guy over at defense-aerospace is off his meds and has gone full retard:

"EDITOR’S NOTE: To balance what is stated above, it should be noted that the F-35 is also an attempt by the United States to destroy Europe’s combat aircraft industry.

It is also an attempt to control, thanks to the F-35’s Autonomic Logistic Information System (ALIS), the operations of allied F-35s, any of which can be grounded through ALIS.

Finally, it also impinges on the national sovereignty of F-35 operators, none of which – with the notable and unacceptable exception of Israel, which is not even a program partner – can access the F-35’s software source codes nor undertake major overhaul operations or modifications on their own."


My eyes are bleeding. Holy sh*t.

Btw, what about all of the current F35 flying without the fully operative ALIS cockblocking them in the ground because of nazi-merica?
Sorcery? Witchcraft? An illusion, F35 can't fly? What's the deal?

Why these son of bitches never ever mention all the sweeping successes the F35 got just in the 2017? Why don't they ever mention the fact this aircraft is flying nonstop with a reliability we've never seen before?
Offline

operaaperta

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2017, 21:42

Unread post31 May 2017, 09:25

A quick question on the concurrency mods list in the FY18 budget.

When a defect is discovered and it is found to be a design flaw, who picks up the tab for the fix?
Would industry subsidise the rollout of the fix to the fleet or is that on the end user to pay for.

I have heard Brogdan say that industry will pay for the Ejection seat mods, does he mean to the whole fleet or just the cost of engineering the fix.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23492
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post31 May 2017, 09:31

'operaaperta' asked: "...I have heard Brogdan [Bogdan] say that industry will pay for the Ejection seat mods, does he mean to the whole fleet or just the cost of engineering the fix."

Searching this forum with key words can pay dividends - pay* for example because parameters require FOUR letters - so:

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=27447&p=306710&hilit=pay%2A#p306710 The F-35’s Martin-Baker Ejection Seat thread in F-35 Design & Construction sub forum of F-35 forum of F-16.net

Bogdan: Martin-Baker will cover cost of F-35 ejection seat fix
22 Oct 2015 James Drew

"The F-35 joint programme office expects British firm Martin-Baker to cover the cost modifying the US16E Lightning II ejection seat after it was deemed too dangerous for lightweight pilots.

The seat is meant to safely accommodate pilots weighing 46.7kg (103lbs) to 111.1kg (245lbs), but flying has been restricted to F-35 pilots weighing more than 61.7kg (136lbs) as a stopgap safety measure.

Lt Gen Christopher Bogdan, who heads the F-35 JPO, says two seat-related fixes are being pursued and the government “is not paying a penny for the engineering and implementation of these fixes”.

“The supply chain from Lockheed through BAE Systems through Martin-Baker will bear the cost of fixing this, as they should,” he told reporters after a 21 October congressional heading...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... io-418063/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

tincansailor

Banned

  • Posts: 711
  • Joined: 05 Jul 2015, 20:06

Unread post31 May 2017, 12:16

rheonomic wrote:Image


Brilliant, this explains the whole Trump phenomenon. Everything was going to be so simple, and easy to solve. Everyone who had been running the government for the last 50 years was just stupid. Now after only 4 months he's done what Russia hasn't been able to do in 70 years, drive a wedge between the United States and Europe. Just brilliant.
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests