Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2017, 23:47
by steve2267
Since Switzerland had re-started their Hornet / Tiger II replacement decision-making process, does anyone think the Swiss might opt for the F-35?

Within a year or two, if not already, the F-35A will likely be the least expensive western fighter aircraft available, 4th OR 5th gen. I wouldn't think Washington would object to the Swiss purchasing / operating F-35s.

A little more expensive than the F-35A, the F-35B would seem to make an excellent choice for Switzerland if they want to be able to disperse and operate from roads. Given its geographical size, the Killer Bee should have more than enough range / endurance for the defense of Switzerland.

If they just want to keep things cheap, I'd say look for used Gripens or used F-16s with decent airframe life left to act as an air policing arm, within normal operating hours, 9am-5pm, of course! :poke:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2017, 00:27
by popcorn
Would love to see them get some B-jets.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2017, 01:47
by arian
steve2267 wrote:Within a year or two, if not already, the F-35A will likely be the least expensive western fighter aircraft available, 4th OR 5th gen.


I have it on good account that the Gripen is the cheapest plane in the world. Also best plane in the world.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2017, 01:55
by steve2267
arian wrote:
I have it on good account that the Gripen is the cheapest plane in the world. Also best plane in the world.


For an air force that flies on banker hours, if they are looking to save money, some good used JAS-39C's with decent amount of airframe life left, would probably fill the air policing role well. And, as you say, it's the "best plane in the world."

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2017, 11:05
by juretrn
Are we poking fun at the genius that would have the entire USAF be replaced by Gripens? (name eludes me) :doh:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2017, 15:38
by steve2267
juretrn wrote:Are we poking fun at the genius that would have the entire USAF be replaced by Gripens? (name eludes me) :doh:


I am not. I am mildly poking fun @ the Swiss for having picked a replacement for their F-18s and then cancelling the contract in a fit of pique @ the polls and also for an air force that apparently has bankers hours.

If the Swiss wish a serious defense, then they need to make a serious choice. At this point, not only is the F-35 a serious choice, but may be the cheapest as well for new aircraft.

If all the Swiss wish is to have an air police force, then used Gripen C models with airframe life left may be an economical choice. Used F-16s may work as well.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2017, 23:28
by arian
juretrn wrote:Are we poking fun at the genius that would have the entire USAF be replaced by Gripens? (name eludes me) :doh:


I'm poking fun at all Gripen fanboys.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2017, 00:37
by juretrn
arian wrote:I'm poking fun at all Gripen fanboys.

Well to be fair, the Gripen is a "good enough" option for a small airforce.
But yeah, they're really serious about defending their country, and good enough might not do, so I think steve2267 is on point.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2017, 15:59
by mixelflick
When the F-35 becomes the cheapest of all the options (Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen, SH, Mig-35, SU-35 etc) it's going to be tough to justify passing it over.

Unless you're Canada and demand 2 engines. Which is pretty rich, considering the US Navy's OK with it.. :D

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2017, 19:52
by barrelnut
steve2267 wrote:I am not. I am mildly poking fun @ the Swiss for having picked a replacement for their F-18s and then cancelling the contract in a fit of pique @ the polls and also for an air force that apparently has bankers hours.


Well, they didn't. They picked a replacement for their F-5 fleet, not Hornets. Hornets will be replaced with much more capable jets, F-35's most likely.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2017, 20:39
by steve2267
barrelnut wrote:
steve2267 wrote:I am not. I am mildly poking fun @ the Swiss for having picked a replacement for their F-18s and then cancelling the contract in a fit of pique @ the polls and also for an air force that apparently has bankers hours.


Well, they didn't. They picked a replacement for their F-5 fleet, not Hornets. Hornets will be replaced with much more capable jets, F-35's most likely.


I did not know this. I thought the Gripen was a replace everything (F-5 + F-18) deal. Had they replaced their F-5s with Gripens, and then their F-18's with F-35's... they would have had a very potent Hi-Lo force.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2017, 21:25
by spazsinbad
Switzerland adds Hornets to fighter replacement plans
25 Feb 2016 Gareth Jennings

"Switzerland is to add a requirement to replace its Boeing F/A-18 Hornet combat aircraft when it relaunches its aborted attempt to replace its ageing Northrop F-5 Tiger II fleet in the coming months.

The Federal Department of Defence, Civil Protection, and Sport (VBS [previously DDPS]) issued a document on 24 February saying that its chief, Guy Parmelin, had informed the Federal Council that the 31 F/A-18 Hornet fighters operated by the Swiss Air Force are to be included in an effort to replace the service's 54 F-5 Tigers that is set to be relaunched later this year....

...While no manufacturers have yet publicly declared their interest in a relaunched Swiss fighter procurement programme, the government has previously stated that the new process should include two of the three shortlisted candidates from the previous effort: the Gripen E and the Dassault Rafale (the Eurofighter Typhoon is no longer considered a "favourite", according to national broadcater RTS)."

Source: http://www.janes.com/article/58331/swit ... ment-plans

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2017, 07:45
by hornetfinn
Going to single type would be smart move from the Swiss IMO. F-5 and F/A-18 was hi-lo mix with F-5 being flown mostly by reservists (mostly airline and freightline pilots) and F/A-18 by full time professional military pilots. Today such a hi-lo mix is not really possible as all types are pretty expensive and have pretty big logistical and training requirements. For such a small airforce one type is much more economical and efficient than two distinct types.

There is talk about buying two different fighter types also in Finland. Most think this would mean Gripen for "cheap" fighter and either Super Hornet or F-35 as "expensive" fighter. I think history might repeat itself in both Switzerland and Finland and US fighter will be bought with clearly better performance and equal or lower costs than competitors. I think Switzerland and Finland should team up in the effort to replace their fighters as both have very similar replacement schedule and overall situation. I'm sure air forces of both countries would very much like F-35, but politicians can be very unpredictable.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Feb 2017, 13:42
by noth
Any Swiiss buy will have to manage to get through a referendum (they're automatic on any purchase over 1 billion CHF). This may be quite difficult if the Left have another campaign like they did on the Gripen... Also the number of jets the Airforce can afford is rather crucial, they'll want as many as possible but probably can't afford more than 30ish of any model.

As for banker hours, that is changing, they'll be doing 24 hour QRA by end of 2017 I believe.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2017, 02:13
by jakobs
How about holding the referendum before starting the process this time around.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2017, 19:27
by noth
Not a bad idea.

However at today's press conference, Swiss Federal Councillor for Defence Guy Parmelin announced that the F/A-18s will have their life prolonged to serve till 2030, including a buy of "radar missiles", aka AIM-120s, and various upgrades to keep them uptodate. The decision to arm them with AGMs / bombs has been pushed back to a later date, as this was rather controversial (makes the Left think they might be used to bomb abroad, in violation of neutrality).

This means the next acquisition won't be entering service till midway in the next decade... We'll see what's still available by then. I bet they'd like Lightnings. Probably not B models, the Swiss like to be able to use a tailhook for some of their more secret landing locations. Bs would mean a change in doctrine (remember they've had the option to buy Harriers since the 60s, and never did).

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2017, 23:54
by madrat
The B would be more flexible, not less flexible, when it comes to operational issues. The B has a way to get down in a much shorter distance.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 24 Feb 2017, 02:38
by jakobs
They still keep using the F-5's more than one would think, so I would guess the Air Force will have a rather high ambition when it comes to the number of airframes it would like. Let's see what they can make possible with budget constraints etc.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 04:56
by spazsinbad
Swiss fighter buy to hinge on 2020 referendum
22 Mar 2018 Craig Hoyle

"Fighter manufacturers are eyeing an opportunity to replace the Swiss air force's entire fighter fleet, although the requirement will be the subject of a public vote planned for early 2020....

...Last November Bern then outlined an ambitious "Air 2030" programme to replace its F-5s, Boeing F/A-18C/Ds and ground-based air-defence systems during the next decade, with the activity valued at Swfr8 billion ($8.4 billion). Proceeding with such a sweeping modernisation activity would require approvals to increase its current defence spending levels by 1.4% per year.

Outlining its latest programme schedule, the nation's government says parliamentary debate will occur in 2019, before a public referendum to be conducted no later than "spring 2020". Selection of a new fighter is likely to occur by the end of the same year, it adds, with a contract signature likely in 2022 and deliveries anticipated between 2025 and 2030....

...Among the terms of its procurement plan, the Swiss government will seek an offset package worth at least 100% of the purchase price...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... um-446986/

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 07:39
by weasel1962
Luckily the Swiss aren't that European. Look what happened to the now "former" German chief of airforce after he suggested the F-35.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 20:12
by botsing
weasel1962 wrote:Luckily the Swiss aren't that European. Look what happened to the now "former" German chief of airforce after he suggested the F-35.

Netherlands, Norway, Italy, Danmark and UK have all opted for the F-35.

Polarizing German internal politics as "European" is kinda odd.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2018, 21:32
by swiss
botsing wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Luckily the Swiss aren't that European. Look what happened to the now "former" German chief of airforce after he suggested the F-35.

Netherlands, Norway, Italy, Danmark and UK have all opted for the F-35.

Polarizing German internal politics as "European" is kinda odd.


Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 01:12
by hythelday
swiss wrote:
botsing wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Luckily the Swiss aren't that European. Look what happened to the now "former" German chief of airforce after he suggested the F-35.

Netherlands, Norway, Italy, Danmark and UK have all opted for the F-35.

Polarizing German internal politics as "European" is kinda odd.


Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


That seems like OK sum of money, 40 F-35s @ 90M dollars leaves about 4,9 billion for weapons, suppot, weapons, training etc... ample money. Unless the SAMs are in the same budget?


Only after the vote does the Federal Council decide which aircraft should be purchased. This is to avoid a public debate about possible shortcomings of the jet fighter - as four years ago when Gripen


Ouch.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 07:12
by h-bomb
swiss wrote:Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


I love this article, apparently the Gripen E has 3 to 4 times the range of the rest of the competitors!

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 13:02
by loke
hythelday wrote:
swiss wrote:
botsing wrote:
Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


That seems like OK sum of money, 40 F-35s @ 90M dollars leaves about 4,9 billion for weapons, suppot, weapons, training etc... ample money. Unless the SAMs are in the same budget?

AFAIK the SAMs are included in the 8 billion Swiss Franc budget.

My guess would be that cost will be a main driver for the selection, as it was in the previous round. This will most likely mean that Rafale and Typhoon will not win this. Probably the F-35 will win, however the Gripen E should not be discounted completely.

It may seem improbable that Gripen E could win, however it did win the previous round. Perhaps the requirements will be different this time around, on the other hand, I think it was clear during the last round that Switzerland in the future will not operate two types of fighter jets -- thus, even if the previous deal was a replacement of F-5s only, ultimately Switzerland would have ended up replacing also the F-18 with Gripen E. Thus presumably the requirements for the previous round took this into account.

For sure the Swiss Army would prefer the F-35 (or Rafale) to the Gripen so perhaps they will try to make the requirements more stringent to reach this target.

Of course if the F-35 turns out to be as cheap as Gripen (not just to purchase, but also to operate) then it becomes a no-brainer. The costs of offsets and ToT will also influence the price. 100% offsets is a requirement.

More info here: https://www.newsd.admin.ch/newsd/messag ... /51786.pdf

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 24 Mar 2018, 14:43
by loke
h-bomb wrote:
swiss wrote:Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


I love this article, apparently the Gripen E has 3 to 4 times the range of the rest of the competitors!

They qouted ferry range for Gripen E and the Rafale (3,700 km) but not for the others it seems.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 12:26
by swiss


Thanks for the link loke.

loke wrote:
My guess would be that cost will be a main driver for the selection, as it was in the previous round. This will most likely mean that Rafale and Typhoon will not win this. Probably the F-35 will win, however the Gripen E should not be discounted completely.


Well it would be a effrontery after the result from the last evaluation and the referendum to choose the Gripen again. There is no doubt, in terms of skills, the F-35 is the only correct decision Period.

I watched the press conference about the Requirement for the new Fighters and SAM. ( Sadly only in german and a bit francais.)



Some interesting points i think:

-Its defenetly the F-35 A that the Swiss AF will invite to the evaluation.

-Its not absolutely necessary that swiss pilots fly the Jets through the evaluation. It could be also test pilots of the manufacturer. Because the simulators are so advanced, that the swiss pilots can comprehend every mission that is flown by the test pilotes. And for every Fighter they will spend 14 "test" days in the simulator.

-They will buy 30-40 Fighters. Depends how good end expensive the SAM is.

- A journalist ask why Switzerland don't try to buy a S400 like Turkey who is a Nato member. Every where the S400 stands the enemy has "the naked horror" from this system. Answer: It speaks not the same "Languages" then the Radars, guiding system and Fighters Switzerland has or will have. So the costs would be very expensive, to integrate the system. And even then its not sure if it will work 100%. And it would be curious, after decades of buying western systems, just know to buy a Russian system.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 14:18
by magitsu
swiss wrote:- A journalist ask why Switzerland don't try to buy a S400 like Turkey who is a Nato member. Every where the S400 stands the enemy has "the naked horror" from this system. Answer: It speaks not the same "Languages" then the Radars, guiding system and Fighters Switzerland has or will have. So the costs would be very expensive, to integrate the system. And even then its not sure if it will work 100%. And it would be curious, after decades of buying western systems, just know to buy a Russian system.

The S-400 threat is built up to sell stuff. Either the clicks for the media or to secure more money for own equipment.
But yes, you are right. It makes no sense to even consider buying mixed strategic systems, for which a lot of the benefits come from networking them to the whole defense system.

The Patriot system's exorbitant cost does make it necessary to have other options, at least rhetorical ones.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 19:13
by playloud
loke wrote:
h-bomb wrote:
swiss wrote:Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


I love this article, apparently the Gripen E has 3 to 4 times the range of the rest of the competitors!

They qouted ferry range for Gripen E and the Rafale (3,700 km) but not for the others it seems.

Wow! You're right.

The Gripen is has the published ferry range of 4,000 km.
The Rafale is listed at 3,700 km, which on wikipedia is the "range" (not ferry) listed with 3 drop tanks (no CFTs).
The Typhoon is the same as the Rafale, in that they took the "range" stat (2,900 km).
The Super Hornet stat is the "range" stat for "clean plus two AIM-9s".
The F-35 is the worst of the bunch. 1,092 km (590 nmi) is the threshold combat RADIUS (which the jet now exceeds)

So, the two extremes here are the Gripen an F-35.
Gripen is getting the published ferry range with 3 external tanks, while the F-35 is getting the minimum requirement threshold RADIUS while carrying 2x 2k JDAMs on an actual mission.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 19:31
by SpudmanWP
Why list the "combat radius" of the F-35 but the "ferry range" of everything else?

Taking the longest published combat radius of the F-35 in A2A mode (760nm), that gives us over 2800kn ferry range. Take the AAMs out (600+ kg) and it should beg above 3000km.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 20:47
by usnvo
SpudmanWP wrote:Why list the "combat radius" of the F-35 but the "ferry range" of everything else?

Taking the longest published combat radius of the F-35 in A2A mode (760nm), that gives us over 2800kn ferry range. Take the AAMs out (600+ kg) and it should beg above 3000km.


Why not? Jerry Hendrix has been quoting the combat radius of the F-35C versus the combat range of everything else for years. Even then, the typical Swiss mission doesn't even need drop tanks on an F-18.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 20:59
by SpudmanWP
usnvo wrote:Why not?
Because to make an intellectually honest comparison, you need to use the same metrics.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 14:53
by swiss
Don't take this graphics to serious. They copy paste them on every article about the new evaluation. :wink:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 16:46
by noth
The Swiss mission is mainly air defence and especially sky police. They currently are gearing up to have 24/7 policing of the skies with the F-18C, but it's taking time to train up everyone, including ATC personnel. So ferry range isn't much of a concern. the English Electric Lightning would have enough range!

I wonder if they'll bother evaluating air to ground at all as that's not a current mission and the Parliamentary Left keep blocking any attempts to buy A2G weapons of any kind. The referendum will happen but at this stage I have no idea if they'll manage to sell this acquisition to a population that seems to think neutrality doesn't require weapons.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 00:49
by usnvo
SpudmanWP wrote:
usnvo wrote:Why not?
Because to make an intellectually honest comparison, you need to use the same metrics.


I agree, but I don't think the article has anything to do with the actual evaluation, just someone, poorly, filling in what they think are the answers.

As for ferry range, I doubt it will be used at all in the comparison as the Swiss are not going anywhere. My guess is the actual evaluation range will be with a very specific set of criteria that the Swiss want and will not match any of the stated conditions for any of the aircraft being evaluated.

Finally, why do you assume that the intent of the magazine was to conduct an intellectually honest comparison? Is that ever the case?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 02:40
by SpudmanWP
lol. I did not realize that the magazine was the one to make that mistake.

What passes for journalism these days really sux.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 16:38
by noth
The only time the Swiss Air Force ferry flights somewhere is to Norway to practice night flying and tanking. But that's not exactly a massive distance...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 16:57
by vanshilar
noth wrote:The Swiss mission is mainly air defence and especially sky police. They currently are gearing up to have 24/7 policing of the skies with the F-18C, but it's taking time to train up everyone, including ATC personnel. So ferry range isn't much of a concern. the English Electric Lightning would have enough range!


I wonder if loiter time then becomes a better proxy for range? I mean if you're using planes for sky policing then being able to stay in the air longer before coming down for a landing would be an asset, right? So that you don't need as many planes in the rotation.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 20:04
by spazsinbad
The name of the department is hilarious but a small thing in the scheme of fings - GO Switzerland.
Switzerland Outlines New Air Defense Requirements
27 Mar 2018 David Donald

"On March 23 the Swiss Federal Department of Defence, Civil Protection, and Sports (DDPS) published a document setting out its basic requirements for both a new fighter (“NKF”—Neues Kampfflugzeug) and a ground-based air defense system (“Bodluv”—Bodengestützte-Luft-Verteidigung). The document names potential suppliers and establishes offset requirements....

...The fighter must be interoperable with those employed by neighboring states and NATO Partnership for Peace nations, particularly in terms of communications, IFF, and tactical datalinks. An off-the-shelf product is sought, with no “Helvetization” required beyond “minimal adjustments” such as may be necessary to integrate into the Swiss command and control network. Final assembly of the aircraft in Switzerland is “not a requirement, but is not ruled out.”

No fleet size is specified, but it must be able to maintain four aircraft on patrol during times of tension for at least four weeks, and the logistics network must be able to maintain operations for six months without any assured spares support from outside Switzerland. Ruag is named from the outset as the center for maintenance, repair, and overhaul. Another requirement is that at least part of the evaluation be conducted in Switzerland by Swiss pilots. The evaluation will consider costs based on procurement and operation of the equipment for 30 years....

...Offsets for both requirements are at least 100 percent, divided among direct offsets associated with the purchase (20 percent), indirect offsets for Switzerland’s defense/security industry (40 percent), and the remaining 40 percent for other industries. Moreover, the offsets must be distributed across Swiss regions along the lines of 65 percent for German-speaking regions, 30 percent for French speakers and 5 percent for the Italian area."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... quirements

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 22:49
by noth
spazsinbad wrote:The name of the department is hilarious but a small thing in the scheme of fings - GO Switzerland.


Well at least they're honest about it. "Youth & Sports" is a school program to ensure a minimum level of fitness (and preferably better) for future soldiers. Switzerland still has conscription (but you can opt for civil service instead).

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 10:27
by alex_f
One of the previous minister of defence (Adolf Ogi) was also very involved in several sport organizations, so apparently, they changed the name from "federal military department" (EMD) into VBS to please him. He always said it wasn't the case, but it looks pretty obvious.

Alex

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 22:12
by spazsinbad
Swiss call for bids over fighter jets
06 Jul 2018 Reuters/SDA-ATS/swissinfo.ch/ilj

"...Under its Air2030 programme, Switzerland is aiming to procure new combat aircraft and ground-based defences in a programme valued at CHF8 billion ($8.1 billion). It is the biggest arms procurement programme in modern Swiss history....

...Armasuisse, the Federal Office for Defence Procurement, said it was asking the firms to submit pricing for 30 or 40 planes, including logistics and guided missiles, as well as an assessment of the number of aircraft necessary to fulfil the Swiss Air Force's needs. The manufacturers have until January 2019 to submit an offer, after which the planes will undergo tests and a second tender round will be opened, with the plan to finish the assessment by the end of 2020....

Vote
In March the government said that Swiss voters would have a say on whether to buy new fighter jets – but not on the type of jet...."

Source: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/next-step_ ... s/44241880

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 23:47
by SpudmanWP
Save me some seats & I'll bring the popcorn. :roll:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2018, 00:10
by rheonomic
I'm sure it will work better than last time...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 18:49
by noth
I think you're all going to love this, fellow forum dwellers:

The Swiss Socialist Party has a new, cheaper plan for the next aircraft and surface to air defence. They're advocating for advanced jet trainers (M-346, L-159 or KAI T-50) to replace the F/A-18s and F-5s! They want to buy a dozen till the F/A-18s retire at the end of the next decade, at the tune of 10 to 20 millions CHF (basically the same in USD) a piece. Massive savings, but as we know, totally unable to do even Air Policing properly. They want to wait till the SCAF and/or BAE Tempest come to fruition before supposedly buying either of those.

Once again the SP demonstrate their willingness to disarm the Air Force using the salami tactic of denying them all and any improvement in equipment and numbers. Always pushing for an an alternative acqusition instead of approving the current proposal from the Defence Ministry. They've even suggested buying a transport plane such as a C-295 instead of buying new fighter aircraft "because that's more urgent to assist the Swisscoy (Swiss troops assisting in Kosovo) and delivering international aid or disaster relief".

Except that 20 years ago they voted against that proposal, calling it unnecessary expenditure.

All the beef here (in French, I'm afraid): http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... 66748.html

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 20:44
by viper12
That's truly some next-level comedy gold !

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 20:56
by ricnunes
viper12 wrote:That's truly some next-level comedy gold !


LoL! It almost makes Canada look good :mrgreen:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 16:05
by alex_f
noth wrote:They've even suggested buying a transport plane such as a C-295 instead of buying new fighter aircraft "because that's more urgent to assist the Swisscoy (Swiss troops assisting in Kosovo) and delivering international aid or disaster relief".

Except that 20 years ago they voted against that proposal, calling it unnecessary expenditure.


well, to be fair, we still haven't got a transport plane, and if something happenes in the world, we have to politely ask our neighbours, if we kindly may use their transport capacities... even Austria has some C-130, which we already used. Even to supply our own troups we have to charter commercial planes. A bit embarrassing, IMHO.

and they (SP) voted against the budget, not because of the transport plane, but for other reasons. The SVP (right wing, which is always against anything which sonds "international") voted against the budget too, exactly because of the transport plane, and combining the two nays on the left and right hand side, but for different reasons, the budget got slammed. So, no transport plane. But not because of the SP, which would have been outvoted anyway, if they were the only party against it.

Some background about that voting (sorry, german only): https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/parlament- ... mm/4416020

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 10 Jan 2019, 19:32
by ricnunes
Thanks for the heads up alex_f :thumb:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 00:13
by hythelday
Maybe it has gone a bit under the radar, but New Swiss Fighter Aircraft is moving along:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 73762.html
(original in german only: https://www.vbs.admin.ch/content/vbs-in ... 73762.html)

Usual suspect have so far showed up: Eurofighter, F/A-18 Super Hornet, Rafale, F-35A, Gripen E.

The layout of the evaluation is as follows:
February - March 2019
- Specialists from Armasuisse (gov procurement agency) and Swiss Air Force test the aircraft in the simulators
- Product support audits, where "air forces of the producing countries show how the aircraft are operated, maintained; how the training takes place" (Eurofighter is trouble here because the Swiss list Germans as producers, which means Luftwaffe get to show off how they maintain those 4 Typhoons out a hundred :devil: )
April - July 2019
- Combat aircraft will be subjected to flight and ground testing in Payerne (air base). (Gripen E is in trouble here because how many operationally equipped Es will be available within the next three months?)
Second half of 2020
- Findings from the analysis and testing phase will be summarized separately for Armasuisse in collaboration with the Army Staff, Air Force, Army Logistics Base and Leadership Support Base(Führungsunterstützungsbasis?) in expert reports
- The technical reports also serve to determine the required fleet size for each type of aircraft (Which means the number of fighters purchased will depend not only on the price but also capability, just to forestall any 4,000$/hr posts)

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2019, 20:06
by noth
Swiss MoD held a press conference today to announce that they're kicking off the ground and flight evaluations this week. Schedule is as follows:

Airbus, Germany, Eurofighter: Weeks 15 & 16
Boeing, United States, F/A-18 Super Hornet: Weeks 17 & 18
Dassault, France, Rafale: Weeks 20 & 21
Lockheed Martin, United States, F-35A: Weeks 23 & 24
Saab, Sweden, Gripen E: Weeks 25 & 26

They're being very strict on how the evaluations are held and separate teams will evaluate each aircraft and will not be allowed to communicate with other teams till the process is over. Companies are forbidden from nearly all forms of lobbying apart from presentations at air shows, and if found trying to badmouth opponents, they risk being ejected from the competition.

As to whether this will end up any differently than from 2012, I have no idea, although the fact that Typhoon & Rafale are known to be up for replacement in the post 2030 window, as is the F-18E, is playing quite a part in all this.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Apr 2019, 22:10
by f4u7_corsair
noth wrote:As to whether this will end up any differently than from 2012, I have no idea, although the fact that Typhoon & Rafale are known to be up for replacement in the post 2030 window, as is the F-18E, is playing quite a part in all this.

Post mid-40s at least for Rafale.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Apr 2019, 11:48
by spazsinbad
Flight Evaluations Begin For Swiss Fighter Contest
08 Apr 2019 Tony Osborne

"LONDON—Switzerland has begun flight evaluations of the combat aircraft bidding to be the country’s next fighter. Two Eurofighter Typhoons will touch down at Payerne airbase this week for the first of five two-week evaluations which are being conducted alphabetically by manufacturer name....

...Swiss officials say eight missions will be flown as part of the two-week evaluation, each with one or two aircraft. The tests will confirm the capabilities and performance of the aircraft against details of the offers submitted by the governments and the manufacturers. At least one of the missions will be flown at night.

Prior to the flight-test program in Switzerland, Swiss test pilots undertake simulator training work in the country of manufacture. “This is the only way to ensure that all candidates have the same test conditions,” says Bernhard Berset, project manager for the flight-testing program in Switzerland, in an interview published on the Swiss Federal Department of Defense, Civil Protection and Sports’ website.

He notes that flying in-country allows aircraft sensors to be tested against the same targets in the same environment and it also “ensures that the new systems will work in harmony with existing systems and infrastructures,” he said. It is unclear whether this also includes the ability to use the mountain cavern hangars at airfields like Meiringen in the Alps....

...Under current plans, the next aircraft to be evaluated will be the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, with the aircraft due to arrive in late April. These will be followed by the Dassault Rafale and the Lockheed Martin F-35 in May and Saab’s JAS-39E Gripen in early June. The deployment of the Gripen E will represent the first hops outside Sweden for the new Gripen variant."

Source: https://aviationweek.com/defense/flight ... er-contest

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 13:18
by spazsinbad
The F-35 and other warplanes descend on Switzerland this spring
11 Apr 2019 Sebastian Sprenger

"COLOGNE, Germany – The Swiss have kicked off flying season for the five types of combat aircraft under consideration to replace the country's aging fleet, with several demonstrations scheduled between now and early July.

The probes are part of the Swiss “Air 2030” program, an $8.2 billion project to buy new aircraft and ground-based equipment for policing the country's airspace. The evaluation phase began in earnest earlier this year, as Swiss officials took the contender aircraft for a spin in the simulators of their respective home countries. Now they want to see how the planes fare in the famously neutral nation, whose alpine terrain makes engine thrust and maneuverability handy attributes.

Bringing the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Boeing F-18 Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the Lockheed Martin F-35A and the Saab Gripen E to the Payerne air base near Bern is a “significant effort” for the vendors and governments involved, said an industry official from one of the competing teams. But the payoff – an estimated $6 billion of the total Air 2030 budget – is winning “one of the big, promising campaigns out there,” that official said.

All contenders must complete eight test flights each, including one at night. The mission profiles are the same for all parties to ensure equal treatment, according to the Swiss defense ministry.

Lockheed Martin expects to bring four of its fifth-generation, stealthy jets to Switzerland for demonstrations beginning in early June. The jets will be from Hill Air Force Base in Utah, making stops on the U.S. East Coast and Ramstein Air Base, Germany, before getting to Switzerland, the company said. The aircraft will be parked at Payerne during the duration of the tests for more than two weeks, up to June 17, a company spokesman told Defense News.

Notably, the Swiss requirement is only to bring one or two aircraft specimens, a spokesman for Armasuisse, the defense ministry's acquisition arm, said.... [???]

...The Swiss government decided to move ahead with flight demonstrations despite an ongoing effort to re-evaluate the Air 2030 program. The country’s new defense chief, Viola Amherd, tasked a former Swiss astronaut with critiquing its underlying premises earlier this year. Claude Nicollier, an astrophysicist and former military pilot, has until the end of April to review a 2017 expert report on which the program was built.

That analysis prescribes that Switzerland needs a fleet of 30 or 40 aircraft to intercept aerial targets that fall outside the range of ground-based defenses. Officials want enough capacity to have four planes in the air at any given time during crises."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... is-spring/

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 16:47
by steve2267
Have Swiss pilots been trained @ Luke, and will they fly the Lightnings in Switzerland?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 21:08
by swiss
steve2267 wrote:Have Swiss pilots been trained @ Luke, and will they fly the Lightnings in Switzerland?


The F-35 will be tested in Switzerland. But with pilots from LM.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Apr 2019, 23:32
by magitsu
Gripen Demonstrator or actually one of the precious 3-4 E test planes?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 12 Apr 2019, 09:04
by hornetfinn
magitsu wrote:Gripen Demonstrator or actually one of the precious 3-4 E test planes?


Saab was in the exact same situation when Finland last selected a fighter jet in early 1990s. Finnish pilots flew Gripen prototypes in Sweden when they had 5 of them IIRC. Then they did similar testing in Finland where Swedish test pilot flew the test missions with the last prototype Gripen (with pretty much production avionics). I think they will do the same again.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 07:00
by swiss
An interview of Bernhard Berset. Project Manager of testing NKF ( new fighter plane). He explains how the evaluation gehts done


https://translate.google.ch/translate?h ... 90408.html

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 14 Apr 2019, 21:44
by spazsinbad
Switzerland Starts New Round of Fighter Trials
13 Apr 2019 David Donald

"...Although armasuisse personnel have been undertaking evaluations of the proposals at the OEMs’ own facilities, including the use of simulators, an important element is the evaluation of each aircraft in Switzerland. Each competitor is being evaluated in eight planned sorties, including one at night, over a two-week period. The mission scenarios and parameters will be the same for each competitor.

“This is the only way to ensure that all candidates have the same test conditions,” commented Berhnard Berset, armasuisse’s sub-project leader for NKF testing, in an interview published on the website of the DDPS (Federal Department of Defence, Civil Protection and Sport). “For example, this allows for the same target presentation or use of the sensors in the same environment. It also ensures that the new systems will work in harmony with existing systems and infrastructures. All candidates must complete the same test program.”

This phase of the evaluation will conclude at the end of June. Candidates are being tested in alphabetical sequence, with Airbus assigned the weeks April 8-21, followed by Boeing (April 22 to May 5), Dassault (May 13-26), Lockheed Martin (June 3-16) and Saab (June 17-30). Swiss pilots will take part in sorties where a two-seater is available. “For the candidates with two-seat fighter jets, it is planned that two test pilots of the [Swiss] Air Force and two test pilots of the armasuisse fly with a test pilot of the manufacturer," explained Berset. “For manufacturers with single-seat fighters, this task is taken over by the manufacturer's pilots.”

As the first to deploy for the trials, Airbus is using two Typhoons—one single-seater and a two-seater—from the RAF’s No. 41 Test and Evaluation Squadron for the evaluation, as they represent arguably the most capable configuration currently available. Ground support equipment was delivered to Payerne by an Airbus A400M of the German air force.

Lockheed Martin is expected to use F-35As from the 388th Fighter Wing at Hill AFB, Utah, and may send as many as four to Europe. Participation in the trials is likely to be the first international foray for Saab’s single-seat Gripen E. Swiss pilots flew the two-seat Gripen Demo forerunner in Sweden during the earlier fighter competition."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ter-trials

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 22 Apr 2019, 16:26
by swiss
Interview with Mike Kelley, Managing Director of Lockheed Martin Switzerland. In a swiss (boulevard) newspaper.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?h ... 81318.html

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2019, 15:21
by swiss

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 19:58
by loke
ZURICH (Reuters) - The Swiss government will split off its purchase of new fighter jets from its order of new surface-to-air defenses, it said on Thursday, setting a budget of 6 billion Swiss francs ($5.96 billion) for the jets alone.


https://news.yahoo.com/swiss-carve-figh ... nance.html

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 17:34
by spazsinbad
Switzerland earmarks Swfr6 billion for fighter replacement
17 May 2019 Michael Gubisch

"Switzerland's government has allocated Swfr6 billion ($5.85 billion) to replace by 2030 the nation's ageing Boeing F/A-18 and Northrop F-5 fighters as part of a wider overhaul of its air defences. The government states that the federal defence department has been tasked to draft by early September a procurement proposal, which has then to be approved first by the country's parliament and then voters via a referendum. However, that public vote will only cover the programme's budget – not the type and number of aircraft to be procured....

...The F/A-18s will reach the end of their service life by 2030, while the F-5s can only be operated for air policing operations in daylight and good visibility, the government says. It argues that the F-5s would "not stand a chance against a modern opponent".…"

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... la-458236/

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 May 2019, 19:20
by noth
This split of the surface to air & fighter acquisition will unfortunately probably doom the buy when the referendum rolls around. The entire Left are against spending on fighter aircraft and that may be enough, with a low voter turnout, to make the governement lose. I'm really not confident on how this is going to end up.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 19 May 2019, 20:48
by swiss

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 12:07
by swiss

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 13:47
by ricnunes
That last photo of the F-35 is awesome indeed. I specially like the coloring of the sun reflecting on the F-35 (during sunset or sunrise?).

Swiss, do you happen to have a higher resolution version of that photo (or a link for that) ?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 15:03
by swiss
ricnunes wrote:That last photo of the F-35 is awesome indeed. I specially like the coloring of the sun reflecting on the F-35 (during sunset or sunrise?).

Swiss, do you happen to have a higher resolution version of that photo (or a link for that) ?


Sadly not Ric. Its from a private FB page.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2019, 15:45
by ricnunes
swiss wrote:Sadly not Ric. Its from a private FB page.


Roger that Swiss.

After downloading the photo, I noticed that its resolution is not bad afterall (it's 1680x1120). Thanks for sharing it :thumb:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 06:23
by swiss
ricnunes wrote:
swiss wrote:Sadly not Ric. Its from a private FB page.


Roger that Swiss.

After downloading the photo, I noticed that its resolution is not bad afterall (it's 1680x1120). Thanks for sharing it :thumb:


Your welcome Ric. :)

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 08:45
by spazsinbad
Air2030: Flug- und Bodenerprobung neues Kampfflugzeug (April bis Juni 2019): F-35A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72nPZYJkk7I [a female F-35A pilot seen in video]
Air2030: Flight and ground testing of new fighter aircraft (April to June 2019): F-35A


Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2019, 13:15
by mixelflick
And of the four, they had to highlight the woman pilot. Not so subtle PC bullsh!t, nobody's fooled. She's there to fill a quota.

In other news, it's all over for the competition. None of the other aircraft under consideration will stand a chance, especially as the CPFH of the F-35 continues to trend downward.

All of Europe is going to be buying this thing, and with good reason: It simply outperforms everything else (except the F-22), by a country mile..

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 00:03
by noth
@mixelflick: never underestimate the power of a referendum in Switzerland on acquisition of these aircraft. That's the only thing that matters, at a time of rising environmentalist sentiment that is as Luddite as it comes. Switzerland is one of the few countries to have a lobby called "For Switzerland without Armed Forces". Aircraft choice won't matter if they have their game running to a tick, as I currently fear.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 06:16
by boilermaker
spazsinbad wrote:
Flight Evaluations Begin For Swiss Fighter Contest
08 Apr 2019 Tony Osborne

"LONDON—Switzerland has begun flight evaluations of the combat aircraft bidding to be the country’s next fighter. Two Eurofighter Typhoons will touch down at Payerne airbase this week for the first of five two-week evaluations which are being conducted alphabetically by manufacturer name....

...Swiss officials say eight missions will be flown as part of the two-week evaluation, each with one or two aircraft. The tests will confirm the capabilities and performance of the aircraft against details of the offers submitted by the governments and the manufacturers. At least one of the missions will be flown at night.

Prior to the flight-test program in Switzerland, Swiss test pilots undertake simulator training work in the country of manufacture. “This is the only way to ensure that all candidates have the same test conditions,” says Bernhard Berset, project manager for the flight-testing program in Switzerland, in an interview published on the Swiss Federal Department of Defense, Civil Protection and Sports’ website.

He notes that flying in-country allows aircraft sensors to be tested against the same targets in the same environment and it also “ensures that the new systems will work in harmony with existing systems and infrastructures,” he said. It is unclear whether this also includes the ability to use the mountain cavern hangars at airfields like Meiringen in the Alps....

...Under current plans, the next aircraft to be evaluated will be the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, with the aircraft due to arrive in late April. These will be followed by the Dassault Rafale and the Lockheed Martin F-35 in May and Saab’s JAS-39E Gripen in early June. The deployment of the Gripen E will represent the first hops outside Sweden for the new Gripen variant."

Source: https://aviationweek.com/defense/flight ... er-contest


With the short runways of the Swiss, there is no way the typhoon and its canards in front would make it , imo.

Rafale is a bit under powered, but then so is the Gripen and F35 while the super hornet is getting heavier by the day.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 06:25
by spazsinbad
boilermaker wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:
Flight Evaluations Begin For Swiss Fighter Contest
yadayadayada

With the short runways of the Swiss, there is no way the typhoon and its canards in front would make it , imo.
Rafale is a bit under powered, but then so is the Gripen and F35 while the super hornet is getting heavier by the day.

Well Well. The F-35B answers that problem "short runnies, & underpowers" eh. But you'll think of something else also. :doh:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 06:30
by boilermaker
hornetfinn wrote:
magitsu wrote:Gripen Demonstrator or actually one of the precious 3-4 E test planes?


Saab was in the exact same situation when Finland last selected a fighter jet in early 1990s. Finnish pilots flew Gripen prototypes in Sweden when they had 5 of them IIRC. Then they did similar testing in Finland where Swedish test pilot flew the test missions with the last prototype Gripen (with pretty much production avionics). I think they will do the same again.

The swiss should make a group buy with the Finns and take whatever the Finns are going to take. Given the French Air Force is already patroling for the Swiss...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Jun 2019, 17:36
by magitsu
Tough for the Swiss to commit to any group buy when they have that referendum hurdle which they already once failed to clear.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 19:38
by loke
In all the sound studies of decibel levels, they have never taken into account the added noise of almost 3 dB when two planes are flying in formation. They always fly in tandem, and it nearly doubles the sound levels. Also, according to NAVAIR, the 150 dB generated during takeoff on an aircraft carrier is louder than any ear protection currently available for naval personnel. “We are creating a hearing loss certainty, not just a risk.”
The NAVAIR study differs from the Air Force study in one very important matrix. The noise measured is not just in decibel units (dBs) but also in watts-per-square-meter. “The F-35A watts-per-square-meter is two times greater than those generated by the F/A-18 E/F (Super Hornet). You can’t use a single dB number to measure noise to fully quantify the acoustic pressure levels generated by an engine, or to compare one engine to another.”
This fact was graphically demonstrated to us on the morning of May 31, when the F35s took off from our airport. In addition to the increased dB levels, there was also a much louder low-frequency rumbling. So the noise has expanded from the normal jet frequencies of the F-16 to much lower cycles-per-second that will penetrate even a closed environment such as the inside of our homes. New windows or doors will not protect us from these frequencies.
Again, according to the NAVAIR study: “Noise levels below 500 Hz are normally not recorded by either dosimeters or medical audiograms. (Low frequency noise was not part of the Air Force study.) Those who have stood near an F-22 or F-35 at high power levels report uncomfortable sensations and believe their internal organs are moving.”
The NAVAIR study continues: “Critical organs of the body have harmonic resonances ranging from a few Hz to 400Hz. For these reasons, greater bio-medical research into the adverse effects of low frequency, air-propagated sound is needed.”

https://vtdigger.org/2019/06/05/joe-ran ... ought/amp/
As mentioned previously the sound level could become the achilles heel of the F-35 in the very sensitive Swiss population.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 19:46
by spazsinbad
'loke' The rong HILL URL has been posted. Care to give the correct one please? Save a lot of messing about. Thanks.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 20:08
by loke
spazsinbad wrote:'loke' The rong HILL URL has been posted. Care to give the correct one please? Save a lot of messing about. Thanks.

Ooooops, I am so sorry :oops:

Thanks for letting me know! Corrected now...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 20:42
by f119doctor
Fighter noise is primarily a takeoff issue. While the F-22 is very loud on a Max AB takeoff, operationally most takeoffs are
made at Mil power, due to high excess thrust, especially on a hot day. This makes the F-22 significantly quieter than F-15s and F-16s, which are making Max AB takeoffs most of the time.

I’m not sure the mix of Mil vs Max AB takeoffs with the F-35. At Nellis, I saw quite a few F-35s accelerate down the runway at Max AB, but then retard to Mil shortly after lifting off. These were certainly louder than the Mil power F-22 takeoffs in the immediate area of the base, but were probably not significantly louder in the populated areas around the base.

Where I live about 10 miles west of Nellis, the loudest aircraft passing overhead are the F-15E, still in AB and not as
high as some other aircraft, not counting the B-1s which are the loudest on base and when climbing out.

None of which bothers us: The Sound of Freedom !

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jun 2019, 20:49
by loke
f119doctor wrote:None of which bothers us: The Sound of Freedom !


I could not agree more!

However here we are talking about the Swiss...

I still believe the most likely outcome is that they will go for the F-35, in terms of capabilities it is far above and beyond the other (4.5 gen) fighters that to any air force, anywhere, it is a no-brainer. Only politics can change the outcome. Anyway let's wait and see.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 01:52
by spazsinbad
The 'loke' noise article has excerpts from an unnamed source (just NAVAIR). Noise was discussed in detail in several places on this forum a few years ago. Without searching for the posts I will say that the noise the USN refers is that experienced/ heard around the catapult. I'm hoping the good citiZENS of burleytown are not living at the threshold of their runways.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 15:45
by jetblast16
None of which bothers us: The Sound of Freedom !


Amen brother. Nothing beats jet blast!

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 17:14
by quicksilver
You can almost bank on the VT opposition crowd to misrepresent either fact and/or context.

To refresh everyone’s memory —

http://www.jsf.mil/news/docs/20141031_F ... ummary.pdf

I would also point out that NAE bureaucrats were the source of much of the doom and gloom about melting flight decks and blowing people off of flight decks — complete with supporting data. Conspicuously, noise and sound suppression around the catapults had been an issue long before F-35 ever showed up on a flight deck.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 18:15
by madrat
Does F-35A really take off shorter than non-M variants of Rafale?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jun 2019, 23:10
by SpudmanWP
I would not put anything past them as they think that just because the F-35 is a DCA aircraft that nuke will be stored in VT and that the airport there will be a special target in the event of nuclear warfare.

What's really funny is that they have no problems with the nukes in general, just not in VT, like that will save them in the event of an all-out nuclear war.

Almost forgot, their existing F-16s are DCA too but that apparently never bothered them.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 07:48
by optimist
Here is one for spaz. the Aussie's did an airfield noise study on the f-35.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... RWS30m_gAj

http://www.defence.gov.au/AirCraftNoise ... Report.asp

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 08:39
by spazsinbad
Thanks. For interest: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=414149&hilit=noise#p414149
05 Mar 2019 "...The fighter has also turned out to be a little less noisy than predicted. Residents near Williamtown have complained about F-35 noise; however, they do so even on days when neither of the two aircraft have been flown...."

& viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=363595&hilit=noise#p363595
28 Feb 2017 "...The previous issue of noise associated with the introduction of the JSF at RAAF Base Williamtown is no longer assessed as a major issue or major risk, as the Minister for the Environment has approved the operation of the F-35A, and Defence intends to comply with the conditions for operation that the Minister for the Environment included with the approval on 17 July 2015...."

&& viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=295754&hilit=noise#p295754
17 Jul 2015 "...The Final EIS was approved with four core conditions. They include requirements to implement aircraft noise management plans in accordance with the RAAF Aircraft Noise Management Strategy as well as ongoing monitoring and public reporting of aircraft noise measurements around F-35A operating bases."

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 10:50
by vilters
Higher Trust = Higher fuel consumption = More sound.
More trust is more sound.

What's so complicated about that?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 15:58
by botsing
vilters wrote:What's so complicated about that?

Noise profile.

Not what you hear but how you hear it and for how long.

The human hearing is adapted to certain sounds, which means that certain sounds frequencies are felt differently subjectively than what they are measured with equipment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

Also the duration of that subjective noise profile is important to see how much stress it brings to the individual. For example: many might prefer a louder short grumble over a long whiny takeoff.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 17:14
by spazsinbad
The USN is concerned about noise at the catapult, measures have been taken and 'will be taken' to reduce aircraft engine noise. I'll bet the 'noise' heard in SWISS valley runways is quite different to runways in flat fields in the USA for example.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jun 2019, 21:45
by SpudmanWP
vilters wrote:Higher Trust = Higher fuel consumption = More sound.
More trust is more sound.

What's so complicated about that?


One other thing to consider is if one engine can produce the same thrust as another while at the same time being at mil power while the other requires AB, the mil power jet will be significantly quieter.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2019, 00:51
by jetblast16
Higher Trust = Higher fuel consumption = More sound


Which do you think would be louder? A Pratt & Whitney F135 in Max AB or a General Electric GE90-115B?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 10:24
by noth
Two problems for the Swiss Air Force, noise related:

1) They take off AB on with the F/A-18s, as a safety measure. This generates a lot more noise than when they previously took off at 90% power, and generated a ton more complaints. Noise pollution in a space constricted country is a serious issue.

2) There was actually a referendum in the last decade launched by the mad green lobby to restrict military airflight of "tourist areas" (aka just about everywhere), because of noise pollution. Luckily it was voted down but it shows just how far the Left here will go to restrict anything military.

The F-35A if operated by the Swiss would no doubt take off on AB... No echoes yet from Payerne on how loud the locals are finding this but there's parliamentary pressure to take noise into account when selecting the future aircraft I'm afraid.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 11:57
by gideonic
noth wrote:Two problems for the Swiss Air Force, noise related:
The F-35A if operated by the Swiss would no doubt take off on AB...

Why is that a must? Considering it won't have any external loads and has a lot of power to bear compared to legacy aircraft. Pilots even mentioning they had to resort to afterburner on chase F-16's just to keep up with a F-35 (not using afterburner) on test flights.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 12:48
by optimist
why guess? there was a link to the Australian study, with all the facts on the last page.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 08:38
by Dragon029
https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... ght-tests/

SAAB is still offering the Gripen E, but has been asked by Sweden not to participate in the flight trials as they only want jets already operationally ready to participate. SAAB offered to fly Gripen Cs alongside Gripen Es, but that's been declined as well.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 11:45
by magitsu
Official communication by the ministry overseeing the matter.
https://www.vtg.admin.ch/content/vtg-in ... 75390.html
(edit: ty Dragon029)

Tidbits:
With the non-participation in the flight and ground testing Gripen E leaves the evaluation process. Retrofitting the flight and ground testing at a later stage would contradict equal treatment of all candidates and is not an option.

Based on current information and analyzes on the degree of maturity and the integration of the subsystems, specialists from armasuisse and the Swiss Air Force came to the conclusion that several of the planned missions could not be carried out in a purposeful matter. For this reason, armasuisse Saab has recommended that it withdraw from the evaluation. Apparently, Saab also came to the conclusion in a separate estimate not to participate in the flight and ground trials.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 11:56
by Dragon029
Link doesn't work without another ".html" on the end:

https://www.vtg.admin.ch/content/vtg-in ... 75390.html

It's confirmed then; the Gripen E will not longer be part of the competition.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 12:28
by krieger22
On Thursday, June 13, 2019, the Swedish manufacturer Saab armasuisse announced that Saab would not participate in the flight and ground trials for a new fighter plane for the Swiss Army in Payerne with the Gripen E. The trial for the Gripen E was scheduled from 24 to 28 June 2019. With the non-participation in the flight and soil testing Gripen E leaves the evaluation process. Retrofitting the flight and ground testing at a later stage would contradict equal treatment of all candidates and is not an option.


Image

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 13:26
by optimist
who's going to be brave enough to tell the gripen fanboys about this politically motivated injustice. That excluded the best fighter. So far ahead of the others. It's not even built yet.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 17:04
by ricnunes
optimist wrote:who's going to be brave enough to tell the gripen fanboys about this politically motivated injustice. That excluded the best fighter. So far ahead of the others. It's not even built yet.


Expect mass suicides during the next few day in BF4C :mrgreen:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 17:56
by doge
Stunning views... 8)

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jun 2019, 19:29
by playloud
doge wrote:Stunning views... 8)

Are those the tears of Gripen fanboys?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 14:13
by mixelflick
How does a small, relatively incapable fighter wind up with so many fan(boys)? And how does the F-35 wind up with so many detractors, especially at the stage its at??

Is SAAB's PR dept that good?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 14:19
by marsavian
Maybe it's the David vs Goliath syndrome where people are rooting for the underdog. I like both fighters so I don't get involved in the back and forth unless discussing interesting technical issues.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 16:41
by playloud
marsavian wrote:Maybe it's the David vs Goliath syndrome where people are rooting for the underdog. I like both fighters so I don't get involved in the back and forth unless discussing interesting technical issues.

I definitely think this is the case. Following BF4C for quite some time now, it is quite amusing.

Some of the claims I have seen made... wow.

- The Gripen C (small legacy radar) can see farther than an E-3 Sentry.
- The Gripen C (small legacy radar, not stealth) vs F-35 (larger AESA radar, stealth). If they were pointed at each other, the Gripen would see the F-35 on radar before the F-35 would see the Gripen.
- When LM/USAF/Pilot makes a claim about the F-35, they're lying! When Saab/SwAF/Pilot makes a claim about the Gripen, it's either gospel, or they are actually understating how awesome it is!

A few years ago (when I first found the group), a common argument was the F-35 isn't ready, so it should be disqualified as a choice. But then when you ask them which platform they prefer, it's the Gripen E! YEARS BEFORE ITS FIRST FLIGHT. I had to remind them why they thought the F-35 shouldn't be considered.

Some of them seem to think the Gripen E is going to be supercruising around with a 900 nmi combat radius. Try to explain that the jet can't supercruise with external tanks, and that it's supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 is a terrible place to be for gas mileage. It usually falls of deaf ears.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 16:45
by ricnunes
playloud wrote:
doge wrote:Stunning views... 8)

Are those the tears of Gripen fanboys?


LOL, good one! :mrgreen:

marsavian wrote:Maybe it's the David vs Goliath syndrome where people are rooting for the underdog.


Yeah, it's probably like those Hollywood action movies where the "good guy" only armed with a pistol faces a bunch of "bad guys" all armed with assault rifles. :roll:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 14 Jun 2019, 20:02
by SpudmanWP
mixelflick wrote:Is SAAB's PR dept that good?
Underdog syndrome combined with ABJ.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2019, 03:48
by alex_f
playloud wrote:A few years ago (when I first found the group), a common argument was the F-35 isn't ready, so it should be disqualified as a choice. But then when you ask them which platform they prefer, it's the Gripen E! YEARS BEFORE ITS FIRST FLIGHT. I had to remind them why they thought the F-35 shouldn't be considered.


Most interesting, as a journo stated today is the following fact: When we voted about the Gripen, they said the aircraft would have been in use by 2018 (!). Now, it's already one year after that promised first into-service-date, and the aircraft is still not ready yet. Maybe the decision not to buy the Gripen was correct, in hindsight.

Now that the French Air Force bought some PC-21, the probabilty of the Rafale is a bit better. After all, it won the first evaluation. A bit embarassing the whole procedure... :doh:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2019, 15:22
by XanderCrews
playloud wrote:
marsavian wrote:Maybe it's the David vs Goliath syndrome where people are rooting for the underdog. I like both fighters so I don't get involved in the back and forth unless discussing interesting technical issues.

I definitely think this is the case. Following BF4C for quite some time now, it is quite amusing.

Some of the claims I have seen made... wow.

- The Gripen C (small legacy radar) can see farther than an E-3 Sentry.
- The Gripen C (small legacy radar, not stealth) vs F-35 (larger AESA radar, stealth). If they were pointed at each other, the Gripen would see the F-35 on radar before the F-35 would see the Gripen.
- When LM/USAF/Pilot makes a claim about the F-35, they're lying! When Saab/SwAF/Pilot makes a claim about the Gripen, it's either gospel, or they are actually understating how awesome it is!

A few years ago (when I first found the group), a common argument was the F-35 isn't ready, so it should be disqualified as a choice. But then when you ask them which platform they prefer, it's the Gripen E! YEARS BEFORE ITS FIRST FLIGHT. I had to remind them why they thought the F-35 shouldn't be considered.

Some of them seem to think the Gripen E is going to be supercruising around with a 900 nmi combat radius. Try to explain that the jet can't supercruise with external tanks, and that it's supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 is a terrible place to be for gas mileage. It usually falls of deaf ears.



Image

I guess I need to make my way back over to BF4C....

Image

just gotta get dressed

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2019, 15:35
by ricnunes
alex_f wrote:Most interesting, as a journo stated today is the following fact: When we voted about the Gripen, they said the aircraft would have been in use by 2018 (!). Now, it's already one year after that promised first into-service-date, and the aircraft is still not ready yet. Maybe the decision not to buy the Gripen was correct, in hindsight.


I'm glad that you mentioned the above.
In another thread in same this forum I stated exactly that - that the Gripen E was supposed to be in service by 2019 - but someone with a name started by "lo" and ended by "ke" told me I was wrong and that the Gripen E was supposed to be in service by 2025 but this data was actually anticipated to 2023, LoL!

Anyway, I'm happy because either:
- I'm definitely not wrong
or,
- in the case I'm wrong (which is extremely doubtful) then I'm not the only one (which by its turn makes the chances of being wrong much slimmer) :wink:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2019, 21:40
by mikc
ricnunes wrote:
alex_f wrote:Most interesting, as a journo stated today is the following fact: When we voted about the Gripen, they said the aircraft would have been in use by 2018 (!). Now, it's already one year after that promised first into-service-date, and the aircraft is still not ready yet. Maybe the decision not to buy the Gripen was correct, in hindsight.


I'm glad that you mentioned the above.
In another thread in same this forum I stated exactly that - that the Gripen E was supposed to be in service by 2019 - but someone with a name started by "lo" and ended by "ke" told me I was wrong and that the Gripen E was supposed to be in service by 2025 but this data was actually anticipated to 2023, LoL!

Anyway, I'm happy because either:
- I'm definitely not wrong
or,
- in the case I'm wrong (which is extremely doubtful) then I'm not the only one (which by its turn makes the chances of being wrong much slimmer) :wink:


Let's keep our facts straight, can we. It's just a google away, so I guess it's the second alternative.

https://www.fmv.se/en/News-and-media/Ne ... of-Gripen/

"FMV has signed an agreement with Saab to develop and modify 60 JAS 39 Gripen E for the Swedish Armed Forces. The agreement also includes provisions for new production of the JAS 39 Gripen E to Switzerland, provided that Switzerland decides to acquire the Gripen. Deliveries will start in 2018 and are scheduled to continue until 2026."

Delivery, not in service and yes according to that schedule it's a year late by now but the February 2013 contract between SAAB and FMV stipulated that 60 Gripen C´s would be modified with the first delivery being in the last quarter of 2018, that contract was modified several times on the initiativ of FMV and ended up being for the delivery of 60 entirely new builds, the first delivery being in the third quarter of 2019.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2019, 01:10
by jetblast16

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2019, 14:17
by ricnunes
mikc wrote:Let's keep our facts straight, can we. It's just a google away, so I guess it's the second alternative.

https://www.fmv.se/en/News-and-media/Ne ... of-Gripen/

"FMV has signed an agreement with Saab to develop and modify 60 JAS 39 Gripen E for the Swedish Armed Forces. The agreement also includes provisions for new production of the JAS 39 Gripen E to Switzerland, provided that Switzerland decides to acquire the Gripen. Deliveries will start in 2018 and are scheduled to continue until 2026."

Delivery, not in service and yes according to that schedule it's a year late by now but the February 2013 contract between SAAB and FMV stipulated that 60 Gripen C´s would be modified with the first delivery being in the last quarter of 2018, that contract was modified several times on the initiativ of FMV and ended up being for the delivery of 60 entirely new builds, the first delivery being in the third quarter of 2019.


And could we stop playing with "semantics", can we?

Yes, "semantically" you may be correct that first deliveries may not directly correspond to initial in service date (or an IOC) however deliveries mean production aircraft and NOT prototypes (which is the only thing that exists regarding the Gripen E and only two of them exist).
So there's still no production Gripen E in existence which means that the program is at least 1 year delayed as you even admitted it - and I seriously bet that it will be more than this or the delay will be quite more than a single year.
But even thou, in programs that don't run on concurrency (like supposedly the Gripen E) the first deliveries aren't usually much/that earlier from an IOC (or something that resembles it).

The end result is that now in 2019, the Gripen E program is delayed and due to this Saab doesn't have any Gripen E to show/demonstrate to the Swiss and hence why it's now out from the Swiss competition, period.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 16 Jun 2019, 16:42
by gc
Not exactly a respectable source seeing how they sensationalise known F-35 issues recently. But it provides a glimpse of the swiss perspective. Seems like SAAB is spinning it their way on the removal of the Gripen from the competition.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... raft-race/

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 06:00
by Corsair1963
Why isn't the F-15EX not in the Swiss Fighter Contest? If, it is sooo capable as it's supporters claim! :|

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 06:25
by spazsinbad
Corsair1963 wrote:Why isn't the F-15EX not in the Swiss Fighter Contest? If, it is sooo capable as it's supporters claim! :|

For same reason the GRIPPING is NOT in the competition? Paper Planes NOT allowed in the Swiss Chocolate Factory. :roll:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 06:30
by XanderCrews
gc wrote:Not exactly a respectable source seeing how they sensationalise known F-35 issues recently. But it provides a glimpse of the swiss perspective. Seems like SAAB is spinning it their way on the removal of the Gripen from the competition.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... raft-race/



Swiss just trying to save them further embarrassment.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 13:23
by mixelflick
To me, this sets the tone for every "competition" the Gripen will enter.

If it can't win in a country known to be looking (only) at light fighters, what kind of competition can it win?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 13:34
by loke
mixelflick wrote:To me, this sets the tone for every "competition" the Gripen will enter.

If it can't win in a country known to be looking (only) at light fighters, what kind of competition can it win?

You are wrong. The Swiss air force is clearly preferring a larger fighter.

AFAIK one of the main reason Gripen was declared "winner" in the first round was becausel it could fit within the budget, whereas Rafale and Typhoon did not. IF they had been cheaper at the time then most likely they would have won the previous round. If you had read the leaks you would have seen that Rafale/Typhoon were clearly preferred based on technical eval alone. However when other factors were added like costs (and industrial offsets?) then Gripen became the winner. So it won the previous round not because it was a light fighter but in spite of being a light fighter. I hope you see the difference ;)

This time around both F-35 and SH participate. Both will be cheaper than Rafale/Typhoon. F-35 will also be much more capable than any of the others. F-35 will win, SH will be second, and will only win if some weird political aspect should pop up and kill the F-35 (like happened previously in Canada).

Rafale will be third and will only win if some weird politics should kill both F-35 and SH...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 16:30
by XanderCrews
loke wrote:
mixelflick wrote:To me, this sets the tone for every "competition" the Gripen will enter.

If it can't win in a country known to be looking (only) at light fighters, what kind of competition can it win?

You are wrong. The Swiss air force is clearly preferring a larger fighter.

AFAIK one of the main reason Gripen was declared "winner" in the first round was becausel it could fit within the budget, whereas Rafale and Typhoon did not. IF they had been cheaper at the time then most likely they would have won the previous round. If you had read the leaks you would have seen that Rafale/Typhoon were clearly preferred based on technical eval alone. However when other factors were added like costs (and industrial offsets?) then Gripen became the winner. So it won the previous round not because it was a light fighter but in spite of being a light fighter. I hope you see the difference ;)

This time around both F-35 and SH participate. Both will be cheaper than Rafale/Typhoon. F-35 will also be much more capable than any of the others. F-35 will win, SH will be second, and will only win if some weird political aspect should pop up and kill the F-35 (like happened previously in Canada).

Rafale will be third and will only win if some weird politics should kill both F-35 and SH...


its good feel vindicated after all the Gripen fans who assured me for years that it was picked in Switzerland based purely on performance and technical merit, and lost their minds when I said it was simply picked based on budget and the Swiss preferred other options, while the F-35 won only on politics everywhere it went of course.


8)

Nice to see the Narrative finally bend toward what I was saying all along, and no one wanted to hear.

Image

Welcome to phase 3, Gripen Fandom

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 17:00
by fbw
@Loke- I seriously doubt the F-35 will be chosen by the Swiss. EU is in full court press for partners choosing European defense solutions. This time I also doubt we will be privy to the scores on the evaluation. Hopefully, some synopsis will be released prior to decision being announced, but I am sceptical. I’ve long thought Rafale is/was preferred choice before competition was even launched.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 17:42
by loke
fbw wrote:@Loke- I seriously doubt the F-35 will be chosen by the Swiss. EU is in full court press for partners choosing European defense solutions. This time I also doubt we will be privy to the scores on the evaluation. Hopefully, some synopsis will be released prior to decision being announced, but I am sceptical. I’ve long thought Rafale is/was preferred choice before competition was even launched.

Switzerland is not part of EU...

I may be wrong but I think cost will play a very important role (together with capabilities). This points in the direction of F-35, or, as stated previously, if F-35 must be excluded due to politics, the SH. However if politics dictates that European solution must be selected then yes of course Rafale will be the obvious choice.

Anyway, Belgium recently picked the F-35... Unlike the Netherlands, Belgium was not an F-35 partner -- and in addition the "capital" of EU is located in Belgium! In spite of all of this, neither France nor the Eurofighter partners managed to convince Belgium. I am not sure why Switzerland would be easier to influence than Belgium?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 17:45
by loke
XanderCrews wrote:its good feel vindicated after all the Gripen fans who assured me for years that it was picked in Switzerland based purely on performance and technical merit, and lost their minds when I said it was simply picked based on budget and the Swiss preferred other options, while the F-35 won only on politics everywhere it went of course.


8)

Nice to see the Narrative finally bend toward what I was saying all along, and no one wanted to hear.

Not sure who you are talking about -- I have been clear on this for many years now that Gripen won the "first round" in Switzerland not on capabilities but on costs (and perhaps also industrial offsets.) That should be clear to anybody who has seen the leaked evaluations, and they have been around for quite some time.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 18:37
by ricnunes
loke wrote:
fbw wrote:@Loke- I seriously doubt the F-35 will be chosen by the Swiss. EU is in full court press for partners choosing European defense solutions. This time I also doubt we will be privy to the scores on the evaluation. Hopefully, some synopsis will be released prior to decision being announced, but I am sceptical. I’ve long thought Rafale is/was preferred choice before competition was even launched.

Switzerland is not part of EU...

I may be wrong but I think cost will play a very important role (together with capabilities). This points in the direction of F-35, or, as stated previously, if F-35 must be excluded due to politics, the SH. However if politics dictates that European solution must be selected then yes of course Rafale will be the obvious choice.

Anyway, Belgium recently picked the F-35... Unlike the Netherlands, Belgium was not an F-35 partner -- and in addition the "capital" of EU is located in Belgium! In spite of all of this, neither France nor the Eurofighter partners managed to convince Belgium. I am not sure why Switzerland would be easier to influence than Belgium?


I agree with what loke said above.
Moreover if Switzerland chooses the F-35 then it wouldn't be the first time that it chooses a top US-Fighter (F/A-18) instead of an European fighter aircraft.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 19:45
by fbw
loke wrote:
fbw wrote:@Loke- I seriously doubt the F-35 will be chosen by the Swiss. EU is in full court press for partners choosing European defense solutions. This time I also doubt we will be privy to the scores on the evaluation. Hopefully, some synopsis will be released prior to decision being announced, but I am sceptical. I’ve long thought Rafale is/was preferred choice before competition was even launched.

Switzerland is not part of EU...

I may be wrong but I think cost will play a very important role (together with capabilities). This points in the direction of F-35, or, as stated previously, if F-35 must be excluded due to politics, the SH. However if politics dictates that European solution must be selected then yes of course Rafale will be the obvious choice.

Anyway, Belgium recently picked the F-35... Unlike the Netherlands, Belgium was not an F-35 partner -- and in addition the "capital" of EU is located in Belgium! In spite of all of this, neither France nor the Eurofighter partners managed to convince Belgium. I am not sure why Switzerland would be easier to influence than Belgium?


True Switzerland is not part of the EU, they have bilateral agreements that allow them access without having to follow EU regulations on things such as taxes (while also contributing funds for EU projects, agreeing to EU free movement agenda up until the 2014 referendum, etc.) The possible termination of these agreements is in the news right now. But I do think the EU push for European defense initiatives will weigh on the Swiss decision, and suspect there will be back channel pressure to this effect “you want continued access to the EU common marketplace, and we are your biggest trade partners”.
Edit- The current German government’s rejection of the F-35 and cashiering of outspoken General, as well as (admittedly lukewarm) support for European defense fund is problematic, and while Typhoon would seem to be a bit of a long shot for air2030... there are two entries supplied by European defense corporations.

Belgium is at least a NATO member so the choice of the F-35 makes sense politically, and in regards to their defense posture. Not to mention, Belgium chose the F-35 before Germany and France started squawking “buy European”.

Anyway, just my gut feeling.... they will choose a Rafale.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 21:11
by XanderCrews
loke wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:its good feel vindicated after all the Gripen fans who assured me for years that it was picked in Switzerland based purely on performance and technical merit, and lost their minds when I said it was simply picked based on budget and the Swiss preferred other options, while the F-35 won only on politics everywhere it went of course.


8)

Nice to see the Narrative finally bend toward what I was saying all along, and no one wanted to hear.

Not sure who you are talking about -- I have been clear on this for many years now that Gripen won the "first round" in Switzerland not on capabilities but on costs (and perhaps also industrial offsets.) That should be clear to anybody who has seen the leaked evaluations, and they have been around for quite some time.


Youre not sure who? have you never actually encountered other Gripen fans on the internet? Go hand out around Best Fighter for Canada. Correct them as much as possible, no one else can

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 11:47
by ricnunes
fbw wrote:Not to mention, Belgium chose the F-35 before Germany and France started squawking “buy European”.


Well the "buy European" squawking/pressure was certainly present and targeted at Belgium well before it decided to buy the F-35, namely by the French. If you recall, there was a very strong pressure by the French towards Belgium to buy the Rafale - They even got to the point of by-passing Belgium's competition and directly offer the Rafale with a bunch of supposed industrial offsets.
I would say that so far Belgium was probably the country in the west that suffered more pressures from an external country (France in this case) to buy a certain fighter aircraft.

fbw wrote:Anyway, just my gut feeling.... they will choose a Rafale.


I don't know and I kind doubt it. If look at the previous Swiss competition (the one that the Gripen NG "won") the Rafale was rejected because of cost/pricetag. And since then the Rafale didn't get any cheaper.
And since it's known that the F-35 is cheaper (not to mention far more capable) than the Rafale...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 11:51
by hythelday
The problem with this "EU pressure" idea is that Eurofighter is also in the competition. First, I do not believe "EU pressure" exists to any meaningful extent in the first place, second even if it does - which plane is preferred by "EU pressure"?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 16:14
by loke
I think Switzerland would react quite negatively to any "EU pressure". The only thing Dassault/Eurofighter can do, is to put together a package that is very attractive in terms of ToT and massive industrial offsets; common training, perhaps common maintanence, etc.

Still I think cost will be very important and therefore I believe F-35 will be the most likely winner, with SH the runner-up. One challenge for the F-35 on the cost side is that operational costs are still quite high, and this could potentially kill the F-35. OTOH it is much more capable so probably fewer F-35 will be needed compared to SH or Rafale. Typhoon I think will be out...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 03:18
by XanderCrews
loke wrote:I think Switzerland would react quite negatively to any "EU pressure". The only thing Dassault/Eurofighter can do, is to put together a package that is very attractive in terms of ToT and massive industrial offsets; common training, perhaps common maintanence, etc.

Still I think cost will be very important and therefore I believe F-35 will be the most likely winner, with SH the runner-up. One challenge for the F-35 on the cost side is that operational costs are still quite high, and this could potentially kill the F-35. OTOH it is much more capable so probably fewer F-35 will be needed compared to SH or Rafale. Typhoon I think will be out...



SH got discluded on the first round because it woudn't fit into their mountainside hangars.

F-35s are compact:

Image

not saying anything either way, just saying

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 03:50
by rheonomic
What are the odds the procurement goes through this time instead of getting cancelled in a referendum?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 10:07
by Tiger05
rheonomic wrote:What are the odds the procurement goes through this time instead of getting cancelled in a referendum?


I am wondering too... I have the feeling that this new competition might just be a fool's errand. Given the strength of the anti-military lobby in Switzerland and the general disinterest in defense matters from the Swiss population, they might be crazy enough to reject this procurement of new jets. If that were to be the case, this would not bode well for the future of the Swiss AF's fighter component. :|

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 13:56
by XanderCrews
rheonomic wrote:What are the odds the procurement goes through this time instead of getting cancelled in a referendum?


If your'e gonna win the lottery you gotta buy a ticket

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 16:15
by loke
XanderCrews wrote:
SH got discluded on the first round because it woudn't fit into their mountainside hangars.

Any sources for that claim?

AFAIK SH was invited but they choose to withdraw:
“After a thorough review of Switzerland’s requirements for partial replacement of its Tiger fighter aircraft, Boeing has decided not to enter the competition due to the disparity between the requirements for an F-5 replacement aircraft and the next-generation capabilities of the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ce-223401/

"too big" and "next-generatoin capabilities" don't sound like the same thing to me...


I suspect the real reason SH dropped out from the first round was that they believed the SH would not fit into the budget...? and/or could not meet requirements in terms of ToT and/or industrial offsets -- but I would guess mainly the budget -- and history proved them to be right for the first round.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 17:07
by XanderCrews
loke wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
SH got discluded on the first round because it woudn't fit into their mountainside hangars.

Any sources for that claim?

AFAIK SH was invited but they choose to withdraw:
“After a thorough review of Switzerland’s requirements for partial replacement of its Tiger fighter aircraft, Boeing has decided not to enter the competition due to the disparity between the requirements for an F-5 replacement aircraft and the next-generation capabilities of the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ce-223401/

"too big" and "next-generatoin capabilities" don't sound like the same thing to me...


I suspect the real reason SH dropped out from the first round was that they believed the SH would not fit into the budget...? and/or could not meet requirements in terms of ToT and/or industrial offsets -- but I would guess mainly the budget -- and history proved them to be right for the first round.




Hornet vs. Super Hornet
(click to view full)
Boeing’s F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet offered the advantage of some commonalities with Switzerland’s existing F/A-18C/D Hornet fleet, even if the actual commonality rating is under 30%. It’s also a mid-tier aircraft, with likely flyaway costs of $60-75 million for a new customer. It was difficult to imagine a scenario in which the original Swiss budget yielded enough Super Hornet aircraft, and as is often the case in Europe, opposition to sales from American firms was expected to be a factor.

"Concerns were also expressed about the ability to fit these aircraft into the Swiss aircraft shelters, many of which are carved into mountainsides; indeed, there had been rumors that the Super Hornet would be excluded from the competition on those grounds alone.

The Super Hornet offered solid performance, and was a legitimate competitor, with pricing that could match or beat competitors like the Rafale and Eurofighter – but it was flying into strong headwinds. In the end, the questions became moot. Boeing looked at the RFP requirements, and bowed out."

source Defense industry daily aggreagator site

And isn't boeing offering BLOCK III now? So they somehow found a way to "forgive" themselves for the "disparity"
of having to replace the lowly F-5 :roll:

I'd believe that the hangar space issue was more real than Boeing just not having the heart to sell airplanes :roll:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Jul 2019, 17:29
by krieger22
Lockheed Martin posted a "highlight reel" of the F-35 over Switzerland

https://twitter.com/thef35/status/11544 ... 92832?s=20

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 29 Aug 2019, 05:07
by Corsair1963
Making the case for the F-35???

Swiss seek package deal of ground-based weapons, combat aircraft
By: Sebastian Sprenger


COLOGNE, Germany — The Swiss government plans to make the integration of combat aircraft and ground-based air defense assets a key benchmark in its planned $8 billion Air 2030 program, according to officials.


Program leaders disclosed the desire for a high degree of interplay between the two competing missile-defense offers and four possible aircraft types during a news conference in the capital Bern earlier this month. The comments reveal a new front in the selection criteria for one of Europe’s most prized defense acquisitions, where the air and ground portions had always existed as separate tracks.


Fear of fratricide in Switzerland’s small and crowded airspace is one of two key factors driving the need for close integration between ground and aerial assets, said Swiss Air Force Col. Marco Forrer. Given the country’s alpine terrain and the requirement to hit targets more than 50 kilometers away and over 12 kilometers high, official are concerned about erroneously downing civilian planes, he said.


“That’s why BodLuv has to be integrated into the Air Force operational picture and command-and-control network,” Forrer said, referring to the German-language acronym for the ground-based program Bodengestützte Luftverteidigung.

Forrer added that a high level of integration also is crucial to keeping costs down, enabling air defenders to engage targets with greater precision and — hopefully — fewer misses.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -aircraft/

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 16 Sep 2019, 17:51
by doge
I found an Italian's article about Switzerland F-35. The language is Italian. (I used Google Translate.)
https://www.aresdifesa.it/2019/06/13/pr ... -svizzera/
This new article adds Rafale, Typhoon, F/A-18EF. https://www.aviation-report.com/svizzer ... et-legacy/
The underline is my favorite part. 8)
The article says that the Range or Radius of the F-35 is longer than the competitors. :shock: (!?)
How much is the range for Rafale, Typhoon, F/A-18EF, (Gripen E?)? :devil:
Official presentation of the F-35 to Switzerland
June 13, 2019 Gianluca Conversi
“In the short term, the stealth technology of our fifth-generation platforms, F-22 and F-35, is the price of combat admission. The lethality of advanced air defense systems continues to grow against fourth-generation aircraft ". General Mark Welsh, former Chief of Staff, US Air Force
The Swiss Army "defends the country and protects its population".
In order to continue to fulfill this constitutional mandate, the Air Force must renew almost all of their resources for the protection of Switzerland from air threats. The F / A-18 Hornet fighter planes will reach the end of their lives in 2030, while, now, the remaining F-5 Tigers can be used for the air police service only during the day and in good visibility conditions, not having anyway no chance of success against an opponent with even slightly more modern aircraft. For this reason, the Swiss Federal Council has authorized the Federal Department of Defense, Civil Protection and Sport (DDPS) to plan the renewal of all the vehicles currently in service or missing (such as medium-long range air defense) for a maximum amount of CHF 8 billion.

As for the replacement of the two combat aircraft, the few and older light fighters Northrop F-5E Tiger II in service since 1978 and the more modern McDonnell-Douglas (now Boeing) F / A-18C / D Hornet bi-reactor, the DDPS has pre-selected 5 aircraft manufacturers to present an offer that includes 100% industrial offsets for Swiss industries, logistics support, training and of course the purchase of "up to" 40 aircraft. The evaluation coordinated by Armasuisse, called Air2030, involved the analysis of the bids received, the ground and flight tests from the Payerne base of the aircraft offered with Swiss personnel (still in progress), the compatibility check of tracks, junctions, hangars, shelters (including the famous Meiringen caves), analysis of the data collected and the subsequent presentation to the Federal Council by September 2019 to arrive at the conclusion of the final contract by mid-2020.

The planes will have to enter quickly, hopefully starting from 2025, the year in which the " phase-out " of the surviving Hornets will begin. Eurofighter (via Airbus), Boeing, Dassault, Lockheed Martin and Saab are the manufacturers involved in the Swiss requirement with their EF-2000 Typhoon jets, F / A-18E / F Super Hornet, Rafale, F-35A and Jas-39E Gripen NG. Lockheed Martin's other best-selling plane was not selected, the F-16 in its most recent and “gadget” version V. The official press conference on the sidelines of the Axalp 2018 aviation shots held by the new Swiss "Divisional" Air Force Commander Bernhard "Beni" Müller has well described the international political-military framework with the return of power politics and the way to go to get to the renewal of the combat aircraft fleet.

Müller's intervention continued, recalling that fighter planes remain in service for at least thirty years and that it is not possible to predict today, in such a broad temporal mirror, what the world situation could be when entering service of new means and in which technological scenario would also be called upon to work, consequently which security policy can be implemented now and which airplanes will be suitable for tomorrow's challenges, ie after 2030. All this introduces the presentation of the fourth candidate whose evaluation is in the final phase, that is the only true fifth generation aircraft currently in service in the world and able to carry out the tasks of the "after 2030": the Lockheed Martin F-35. Last June 7th we attended the day that Lockheed Martin, Armasuisse (the body that coordinates purchases of defense equipment) and Schweizer Armee dedicated to Media and Aviation Enthusiasts (official Media Day in the morning and Spotters Day in the afternoon).

Information of respect for the public and the media is held in high regard at every level; both the Armed Forces and Armasuisse produce regular reports and the selection of candidates for the new combat aircraft has been widely publicized; participation in events, public, was addressed in a structured, professional, transparent manner and shared with the media well in advance. With the exclusion of the public media, it was possible to register through dedicated websites for Media Day and Spotters Day of each demonstration until reaching the maximum number of candidates envisaged by Armasuisse; registrations took place within a specific time frame and no waivers or favors were granted to anyone. A confirmation e-mail with the instructions, once the ritual checks have been completed, has arrived to the registered guests. Certainly, as far as public relations are concerned, Switzerland has adopted an admirable policy that deserves to be replicated.

In Switzerland, the sharing (always within certain limits) of sensitive decisions that touch on the one hand national security, industry and employment - not to forget the impact on tax payers - takes place with the appropriate emphasis and sharing with the citizens of the Confederation who in many situations are called to the polls to choose or reject the choices of the Federal Council by referendum, also to validate or reject the purchase of combat aircraft. In 1993, 57.2% of Swiss voters voted in favor of buying 34 F / A-18 Hornets (4 two-seaters) but, called to the polls in May 2014, the purchase of 22 Saab Jas-39C / D fighters Gripen was rejected by 53.4% ​​of voters. The hot controversies surrounding the Joint Strike Fighter were of that time and analysts at the time believed that the scenario in which the vote was organized influenced the outcome of the vote. Five years later, the Gripen E is still a prototype, the Eurofighter Tranche 4 (advocated by Airbus for the German Luftwaffe) does not fly at all.

The Super Hornet in the Block III version is being industrialized and can guarantee 60% compatibility with the current structures that support the current legacy Hornet fleet, while the Dassault Rafale (F4 version) is driven by government pressure very strong and from the recent purchase of 19 Pilatus PC-21 trainers by the Armée de l'Air which could (around 2030 ... coincidence?) replace the obsolete Alpha Jet E of the Patrouille de France with the Swiss turboprops. The ones listed above, no matter what the builders say, are fourth-generation planes or, as it is usually called, of fourth plus (4+).


The F-35 for Switzerland
Unlike previous builders who sent a pair of aircraft including two-seater aircraft, Lockheed Martin and USAF brought 4 F-35A Lightning II from 34th Fighter Squadron "Raw Rams" to Hill AFB, Utah, to Switzerland. preceded by a Boeing C-17A "Globemaster III" cargo of the 437Th AW / 315Th "Charleston" of the "Air Mobility Command" which dumped men and materials.

The 4 F-35As arrived in Payerne on the evening of May 31 last came from the Aviano base where they arrived along with 8 other aircraft.

The press conference for the presentation of the F-35 SI aircraft was carried out surrounded by a massive multi-level marketing effort (information brochures, aircraft models, flight simulators, helmets and ALIS, various gadgets, leaflets but also accompanied by a sumptuous catering service not only for media and authorities but also… hear hears… for spotters and simple citizens who have approached the Payerne base networks.

A scenario of this type very difficult to see in our latitudes.

According to many, Lockheed Martin has largely outclassed, at least at the commercial level, the presentations of Airbus, Boeing and Dassault and we will see what Saab will do as the last contender to present its own aircraft.

The press conference was attended by Steve Callaghan of Lockheed Martin, Program Director F-35 & Navy, of the USAF military Colonel David Buchanan (USAF) of the Joint Program Office (JPO), Colonel Drew “Growler” Allen of the USA Integration Office , Colonel Michael Miles of the 388th Maintenance Group commander, Hill AFB and John "Bama" Montgomery of Northrop-Grumman Airborne C4ISR Systems.

Other executives from Pratt & Whitney (engine supplier) and Lockheed contributed to the Media Day.

Lockheed Martin speakers understood the Swiss requirement and reaffirmed how important it is for Switzerland to maintain political and military neutrality, but in an increasingly turbulent world that is continually evolving, the F-35 is the best platform that is offered to Swiss armed forces to adapt and better face these threats now as in the decades to come. Peace and stability are too important not to be guaranteed and the F-35, with its revolutionary technology, allows nations that are endowed, small or large, to maintain Peace through this strength which is the 5th generation aircraft offered.

Selecting the JSF, Switzerland would obviously enter the group of 13 nations that currently have ordered it and in a world where threats are increasingly sophisticated, the F-35 offers the air-policing mission (primary for the Schweizer Luftwaffe) just as sophisticated responsiveness.

The pilot's intervention by Colonel Drew "Growler" Allen, focused on the technical capabilities of the aircraft and its peculiar characteristics that allow a rapid take-off and the achievement of the cruising altitude in a very short time thanks to the most powerful engine ever mounted on a fighter plane that within a few years should exceed 41,000 pounds of thrust thanks to new investments and improvement projects for this already efficient and reliable product by Pratt & Whitney.

The other aspect emphasized, is the ability of the F-35 to remain in flight longer than all the other contenders, reducing the number of daily sorties; in fact, none of the contenders can go further and stay in the air more than what can be obtained from the F-35.

Switzerland does not have a supply company, so the autonomy of the new fighter can be crucial.

Colonel David Buchanan, in addition to illustrating the "state of the art" of the Joint Strike Fighter Program, stressed that the $ 80 million unit cost is competitive with 4th generation legacy aircraft.

More than 400 aircraft delivered, will be 868 in 2022 and over 500 in Europe by 2030; over 200,000 hours flown, 850 pilots and 7500 trained airmen located on 17 bases that will become 30 in 2022 make it already a best-seller.

With regard to industrial opportunities, it has been specified that 25% of each aircraft flying in the world mounts components manufactured in Europe and even Swiss aircraft will surely have “Made In Switzerland” parts on board.

This is certainly the weak link in Lockheed Martin's proposal, so 100% offset will have to be achieved through other programs.

In the short Question Time that closed the official part and preceded the visit to the track to photograph one of the 4 planes present in the base and attend the take-offs and landings of the second morning mission (each test mission includes 4 F / A-18 Hornet side by side 2 aircraft under evaluation), we asked the JPO about the future of Cameri, home to one of the 3 plants able to produce complete airplanes under the JSF program.

Officially, all sites produce important parts of the F-35, results of very complex agreements. The production of aircraft outside the Fort Worth, TX line is essentially the result of agreements between governments and at the moment, in addition to Italian aircraft (28 products between 2022 and in production) for the Novara plant, only 29 F are certain -35A in production for the Royal Netherlands Air Force, while the "long lead materials" intended for the manufacture of post-2022 Italian aircraft are not yet ordered.

So under-employed, with a handful of planes a year (FACO could, at full capacity, produce between 15 and 24 per year) the use of the sophisticated Cameri plant co-managed by Leonardo and Lockheed Martin on behalf of Italian Defense would seem, if not adequately sponsored, a great opportunity for now wasted at the expense of employment, induced and country-system country credibility, forcing AM and MM to receive very slowly the planes they would need.

The press conference ended with the "recap" of the points in favor of the F-35 that Armasuisse and legislators should consider as key points in the final choice:
    ・F-35 to support Swiss air defense for the next 40 years with spiral development aimed at keeping them constantly up-to-date.
    ・The most performing aircraft for Swiss Air Policing missions.
    ・Planned modernization and logistic support.
    ・Economics of scale and sustainability.
    ・Industrial participation in support of Swiss neutrality.
    ・Opportunities for integration and cooperation with US and regional operators equipped with the same aircraft.
During the missions we were able to attend, we found no problems with the airplanes presented in flight, just as the exit and return to the hangars occurred without any particular problems; after all, the F-35A is much more contained in terms of maximum dimensions compared to the current legacy Hornets which, like the "big brother" Super Hornet, have the possibility to fold their wings to reduce the overall dimensions:
    F-35A L: 15.67m W: 10.70m H: 4.33m
    F/A-18C / D L: 17.07m W: 11.43m H: 4.66m
    The other contenders:
    Rafale L: 15.27m W: 10.86m H: 5.34m
    Typhoon L: 15.96m W: 10.95m H: 5.28m
    F/A-18E / F L: 18.31m W: 13.62m H: 4.88m
    Gripen E L: 15.2m W: 8.6m H: 4.5m
The tests continued with some missions on the Alpine base of Meiringen where the narrowest spaces and the shelter in the caves can become elements of a certain relevance when all the data collected during the selection process will be compared.

The F-35 closed the demonstration phases on the ground and in the air, because Armasuisse, in a note dated June 13, invited Saab not to participate in the Gripen E evaluation which is not yet operational and is still subjected to tests by Saab; as is known, among the requirements of Air2030 there is the condition that the aircraft admitted to the ground and in-flight assessment sessions are operational during 2019, and the Gripen E is not.

As reported by the prestigious newspaper Tages Anzaiger , which came into possession of a letter from Armasuisse sent to the 5 builders last January and signed by the director of the Darko Savic organization, the Swiss armaments management would have strongly warned the participants not to send non-aircraft able to satisfy the tests required in the requirements.

Savic would also have explained that neither his management nor the Swiss people would have accepted justifications for the inadequacy of certain apparatuses provided on the plane and still not ready or being defined.

If one of the requirements was to test real aircraft, in flight and not prototypes not yet certified, it would mean for Armasuisse that they are not mature and reliable aircraft to perform the tasks required of them when they enter service. The exclusion from the tender, is specified by Tages Anzeiger, could also have been taken to flight tests in progress.

The consequences of this resounding breakthrough could mean that Saab is out of Air2030 and certainly represents a heavy setback for the Swedish manufacturer in terms of image and marketing of Gripen E.

In a communiqué issued immediately after the exclusion from flight testing, Saab states that "Gripen E is the best choice for Switzerland and the offer presented in January is still valid. Saab is ready to deliver at least 40 fighter planes on time in compliance with the requirements and with all the equipment indicated in the offer ”.

Except for sensational developments, the Gripen E is today excluded from Air2030 which, according to a survey commissioned by the same newspaper, would see the F-35 winner today followed by Super Hornet and Rafale.

Other Swiss articles and F-35.com's Swiss page have something similar as well.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/f-35-li ... -air-base/
https://www.f35.com/global/participation/switzerland
The aircraft can be dispatched rapidly and climbs quickly. “With a high thrust engine and internal weapons, the F-35 is able to remain airborne longer than any of its competitors,” Alan Norman, Lockheed Martin F-35 Chief Test Pilot, explained to The Aviation Geek Club.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 13:09
by hythelday
Swiss parliament approves Air 2030 fighter, GBAD procurement
https://www.janes.com/article/93434/swi ... rocurement

The Swiss parliament on 20 December approved the government and Federal Department of Defence, Civil Protection and Sport's (VBS's) Air 2030 proposal to invest up to CHF6 billion (USD6.2 billion) to replace the Swiss Air Force's F/A-18C/D and F-5E fighters starting in 2025 and CHF2 billion in ground-based air defence (GBAD).


And fresh news from two weeks ago:

Air2030: Second request for proposals has been issued to the government authorities of the manufacturers of fighter aircraft and extended-range ground-based air defence systems
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/docum ... 77740.html

On 10 January 2020, armasuisse has issued the second request for proposal for new fighter aircraft to the government authorities where the four potential suppliers are located: Germany (Airbus Eurofighter), France (Dassault Rafale) and the USA (Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Lockheed-Martin F-35A). The second request for proposal is based on the analysis of the first proposal and on findings from flight, simulator and ground tests as well as audits with armed forces operating the evaluated fighter aircraft. In the second request for proposal, the companies contacted via the government authorities are requested to submit the most advantageous offer for Switzerland.

The proposal should include the following elements:

- prices for 36 and 40 aircraft, including defined logistics and weapons, as a binding starting point for the detailed negotiations with the selected candidate after the type selection
- offers for cooperation between the armed forces and the procurement authorities of Switzerland and those of the supplier country
- envisaged or already initiated offset projects

The starting point for determining the number of fighter aircraft are the requirements to cope with a situation of increased tension. In such a situation, the Swiss Air Force must be able to permanently conduct air patrols with at least four aircraft for at least four weeks in order to preserve air sovereignty, prevent unauthorised use and violations of Swiss air space and thus contribute to keep Switzerland out of armed conflict. In addition, the Swiss Air Force will use the new fighter aircraft for air policing around the clock, and, in case of armed attack, defend the air space for a limited period of time and support the ground forces.

New extended-range ground-based air defence system

On 10 January 2020, armasuisse has also issued the second request for proposal to the government authorities where the two potential suppliers of new extended-range ground-based air defence systems are located: France (Eurosam SAMP/T) and the United States of America (Raytheon Patriot). As with the fighter aircraft, the second request for proposal is based on the analysis of the first proposal, on the findings of sensor tests in Switzerland and audits of armed forces operating the evaluated systems. In the second request for proposal, the manufacturers contacted via the government authorities are requested to submit the most advantageous proposal for Switzerland.

The proposal should include the following elements:

- price for extended-range ground-based defence systems capable of covering at least 15,000 km2, including defined logistics and weapons, as a binding starting point for the detailed negotiations with the selected candidate after the type selection
- offers for cooperation between the armed forces and the procurement authorities of Switzerland and those of the supplier country
- envisaged or already initiated offset projects

Next steps in the Air2030 programme

The document "Requirements for the procurement of a new combat aircraft and a new extended-range ground-based air defence system" of 23 March 2018 has been updated. The adjustments concern mainly the offset obligations and the allocation of the financial volume. Concerning Bodluv GR, RUAG MRO Switzerland is designated as the centre for maintenance, overhaul and repair; and the candidates' capabilities to counter ballistic missiles are to be clarified.

The overall utility of each system will be determined using the information from the second proposal and the findings from the various testing activities. A comparison of overall utility with the costs and the risks will take place only after an expected referendum has taken place. The results, together with a comprehensive risk analysis, will feed into the evaluation report, where the overall utility of the new fighter aircraft and the new extended-range ground-based air defence system will be set against the costs of procurement and 30 years of operation. Based on the evaluation report, the Head of the DDPS (the Swiss Minister of Defence) will be presented with a recommendation for the most suitable fighter aircraft and extended-range ground-based air defence system for Switzerland. The final type selection will be taken by the Federal Council.


Meanwhile, I found this piece of information interesting:

Swiss TIGERs for the US Navy
https://euro-sd.com/2019/06/articles/13 ... d-attempt/

For the next couple of years, the Swiss Air Force will fly a total of 22 F-5E and four F-5F two-seaters, down from a peak of 98 and 12 in 1981. Almost all of them have become the target of a unique item in the US DoD’s FY2020 budget as the US Navy wants to acquire another 22 F-5E/Fs from Switzerland to fulfil so-called ‘fleet adversary support duties.’ The 44 F-5N/Fs that are currently flying as ‘aggressors’ with two US Navy and one Marine adversary squadrons are also from surplus Swiss Air Force stocks. However, delivery and refurbishment of those jets took place between May 2003 and November 2007 and with the fleet continuing to age, demand for its services continues to rise. Although some of this demand is being offset by employing private ‘Red Air’ contractors like ATAC or ‘Draken Intl.’ for adversary support duties, the Navy will still have to shore up its F-5 force unless it plans to retire the type entirely. Currently, the F-5 – and in particular the Swiss ones because they are very well maintained – still are a sounding economic solution for a range of threat presentations. However, theUS Navy will still have to wait a little until the Swiss have procured new aircraft.


And also a promo vid of SAMP/T deploying from France to Switzerland:


Swiss tender is interesting because they are choosing a package of fighters and GBAD (apparently David's Sling was a third option for GBAD but was eliminated). Because of Finnish tender we know that 6 billion for 40 aircraft is well within the F-35A price range, meaning they can also cram the desired logistics and support into that number. It seems LM is also in a better position because they make a significant contribution to Patriot system (unlike Dassault in SAMP/T), which is also a stronger candidate because of proven (unlike promised for Aster) HTK capability and real-world engagement data. Still i think Rafale is the other runner up, Super-Duper and Typhoon will, IMO, score lower on the cards. I also found it interesting that USN may be interested in buying even more Swiss F-5s, which ticks the box for cooperation and "envisaged or already initiated offset projects". Just imagine exchanging your old Tigers for Panthers with a slight chance of monetary gain :)

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 14:49
by hornetfinn
Interesting how Finnish and Swiss acquisition plans are so similar. Finland is also going to procure long range/high altitude GBAD system to be choses within about two years. In Finland it's separate from our HX program for new fighter aircraft though. Of course we currently have NASAMS 2 which could be given some high altitude coverage with ESSM or AMRAAM-ER missiles. That'd be cheapest option, but likely also the least capable. Swiss idea of combining the GBAD and fighter acquisitions is definitely interesting one.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 17:05
by ricnunes
hythelday wrote:Swiss TIGERs for the US Navy
https://euro-sd.com/2019/06/articles/13 ... d-attempt/

For the next couple of years, the Swiss Air Force will fly a total of 22 F-5E and four F-5F two-seaters, down from a peak of 98 and 12 in 1981. Almost all of them have become the target of a unique item in the US DoD’s FY2020 budget as the US Navy wants to acquire another 22 F-5E/Fs from Switzerland to fulfil so-called ‘fleet adversary support duties.’ The 44 F-5N/Fs that are currently flying as ‘aggressors’ with two US Navy and one Marine adversary squadrons are also from surplus Swiss Air Force stocks.



Well, they actually want Mig-28's :mrgreen:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 17:40
by hythelday
hornetfinn wrote:Interesting how Finnish and Swiss acquisition plans are so similar. Finland is also going to procure long range/high altitude GBAD system to be choses within about two years. In Finland it's separate from our HX program for new fighter aircraft though. Of course we currently have NASAMS 2 which could be given some high altitude coverage with ESSM or AMRAAM-ER missiles. That'd be cheapest option, but likely also the least capable. Swiss idea of combining the GBAD and fighter acquisitions is definitely interesting one.


Instead of long range GBAD you should get an inventory of SM-6 for your new ships. Cheaper than introducing entirely new system, can be data-linked to F-35s, ready to fire even on the move and much more easy to protect if the ship is cruising somewhere in Botnia with its own point defense and EW ready.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 17:47
by mixelflick
There is just no beating the F-35 now in any fair competition. It meets all the requirements of most nations (and then some), with the possible exception of technology transfer. Although, that depends how you define it. The F-35's unit cost is cheaper, it's lifetime costs will be less (due to being so far ahead of the tech curve), the worldwide sustainment platform is only going to get better and the cost per flight hour is only coming down.

Throw in Patriot and Lockheed Martin is going to clean up in the Swiss competition - and elsewhere. Unless and until the Chinse get the J-31 rolling, it'll be the only game in town insofar as a truly stealthy, affordable and effective strike fighter is concerned.

It is increasingly clear: LM has built a better mousetrap...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2020, 10:23
by magitsu
hythelday wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Interesting how Finnish and Swiss acquisition plans are so similar. Finland is also going to procure long range/high altitude GBAD system to be choses within about two years. In Finland it's separate from our HX program for new fighter aircraft though. Of course we currently have NASAMS 2 which could be given some high altitude coverage with ESSM or AMRAAM-ER missiles. That'd be cheapest option, but likely also the least capable. Swiss idea of combining the GBAD and fighter acquisitions is definitely interesting one.

Instead of long range GBAD you should get an inventory of SM-6 for your new ships. Cheaper than introducing entirely new system, can be data-linked to F-35s, ready to fire even on the move and much more easy to protect if the ship is cruising somewhere in Botnia with its own point defense and EW ready.

There's quite a bit of inland to cover instead of just the coastline. Also Lapland is basically more important to Russia than for us, because of potential threat to the Northern Fleet in Murmansk.

It doesn't really make sense to try to cover the coastline cities, the few AA assets available are mostly required for protecting the fight of the army.

It's enticing nevertheless, but also in a way would increase the risk involved when pooling so many of the available capabilities to just 4 naval units. Their outlook is already to be very overworked.

Both competitions clearly have the big picture in mind. But since they are not bundled but separate in Finland, Patriot etc. didn't find their way in unlike Growler/GlobalEye. Which implies that at least Finland won't be acquiring something as costly as Patriot. The smallest improvement would be very small indeed: AMRAAM-ER or ESSM blk 2 + new targeting radar to NASAMS. Since the corvettes already went for ESSM, either of these could provide synergies.

With the Swiss competition in mind, Finland went with "5 Volvo's instead of 2 Cadillacs" as one eccentric general described it when it took NASAMS instead of SAMP/T. But the loss of medium distance/higher ceiling ability compared to retired Buk-M1 has been a source of longing ever since. Now that will be settled in one way or another.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2020, 20:44
by lukfi
hythelday wrote:I also found it interesting that USN may be interested in buying even more Swiss F-5s, which ticks the box for cooperation and "envisaged or already initiated offset projects".

Would this actually count among offsets? The Swiss are probably going to sell the F-5s regardless of which aircraft wins the competition.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Feb 2020, 04:27
by noth
The referendum on acquisition of warplanes seems set for September 2020 (usually the last Sunday of September). Nothing will be announced on aircraft selection till 2021, same for the air defence package.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2020, 06:11
by hythelday
More recent news:

Swiss set date for fighter referendum
By Gareth Jennings, 26 June 2020
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... referendum

Switzerland is to hold a national referendum on its Air2030 requirement to procure new combat aircraft on 27 September.

The date, announced by the government on 26 June, will see the population decide on whether or not to proceed with a planned procurement of a new aircraft type to replace the Swiss Air Force’s ageing Northrop F-5E/F Tiger II and Boeing F/A-18 Hornet fleets. As previously reported though, the type selection itself will not be subject to a vote.

Under a previously released timeline Switzerland had planned to select a new fighter type in 2020, though this will now likely take place in 2021. Parliamentary approval and the award of funding is due in 2022, with deliveries to follow from 2025.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2020, 07:41
by Corsair1963
Does anybody want to speculate on the odds of the F-35 winning the Swiss Fighter Contest. Assuming the referendum passes.........

:|

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2020, 02:13
by noth
hythelday wrote:More recent news:

Swiss set date for fighter referendum
By Gareth Jennings, 26 June 2020
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... referendum

Switzerland is to hold a national referendum on its Air2030 requirement to procure new combat aircraft on 27 September.

The date, announced by the government on 26 June, will see the population decide on whether or not to proceed with a planned procurement of a new aircraft type to replace the Swiss Air Force’s ageing Northrop F-5E/F Tiger II and Boeing F/A-18 Hornet fleets. As previously reported though, the type selection itself will not be subject to a vote.

Under a previously released timeline Switzerland had planned to select a new fighter type in 2020, though this will now likely take place in 2021. Parliamentary approval and the award of funding is due in 2022, with deliveries to follow from 2025.


The turnout on this referendum should be higher than usual (which is usually a good thing) because one of the other referendums/ballot initiatives is on limiting immigration by leaving Schengen. I'm expecting a near 50% turnout because of this, with many more people in favour of the armed forces voting instead of abstaining as they usually do (voter fatigue because of voting on referendums 4x a year takes it's toll, only activists and the politically aware tend to vote, giving a 35% turnout on average for referendums).

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 11 Jul 2020, 18:40
by XanderCrews
excellent update. Thank you

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 12 Jul 2020, 16:41
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:Does anybody want to speculate on the odds of the F-35 winning the Swiss Fighter Contest. Assuming the referendum passes.........

:|


Without knowing all the particulars (I'm assuming the usual suspects are involved), I'd say its better than 50-50. Tough to say how much Boeing could sweeten their deal with the SH, and they'll undboutedly argue the Hornet infrastructure (engines, pilot training) is already there.

I don't see them buying a Eurocanard, especially given how long they've dealt with/flown American aircraft. And if anyone in the Swiss Air Force has been paying attention/participating in Red Flag, the choice should be obvious..

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2020, 03:14
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Does anybody want to speculate on the odds of the F-35 winning the Swiss Fighter Contest. Assuming the referendum passes.........

:|


Without knowing all the particulars (I'm assuming the usual suspects are involved), I'd say its better than 50-50. Tough to say how much Boeing could sweeten their deal with the SH, and they'll undboutedly argue the Hornet infrastructure (engines, pilot training) is already there.

I don't see them buying a Eurocanard, especially given how long they've dealt with/flown American aircraft. And if anyone in the Swiss Air Force has been paying attention/participating in Red Flag, the choice should be obvious..



I see the odds being very good for the F-35 to win in Finland. Yet, cost is a very big factor for the Swiss. At least from the point of view of the general public. Yet, I hope your right...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2020, 14:52
by ricnunes
Corsair1963 wrote:I see the odds being very good for the F-35 to win in Finland. Yet, cost is a very big factor for the Swiss. At least from the point of view of the general public. Yet, I hope your right...


On the other hand if money (or being cheaper) was the most important factor for the Swiss then they would have chosen the F-16 instead of the F/A-18 back in 1990's.

If we look at the previous Swiss competition where the Gripen E 'won' due to being cheaper for some comparison then we'll have to remember that this competition was set to replace the F-5 and not the F/A-18. And since it was intended to replace solely the F-5 then it made sense back then that the smallest and cheapest was to be selected. But this competition that we're talking about is to replace the F/A-18 so I imagine that different 'metrics' will be taken into account.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Jul 2020, 16:40
by magitsu
The Swiss ended up buying the most gold plated F/A-18 available. None of the others ordered titanium center barrels.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2020, 05:49
by Corsair1963
ricnunes wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I see the odds being very good for the F-35 to win in Finland. Yet, cost is a very big factor for the Swiss. At least from the point of view of the general public. Yet, I hope your right...


On the other hand if money (or being cheaper) was the most important factor for the Swiss then they would have chosen the F-16 instead of the F/A-18 back in 1990's.

If we look at the previous Swiss competition where the Gripen E 'won' due to being cheaper for some comparison then we'll have to remember that this competition was set to replace the F-5 and not the F/A-18. And since it was intended to replace solely the F-5 then it made sense back then that the smallest and cheapest was to be selected. But this competition that we're talking about is to replace the F/A-18 so I imagine that different 'metrics' will be taken into account.


My point was the Swiss Public doesn't sound to thrilled about the idea of buying a fighter in the first place. So, cost would clearly be a big factor to consider....

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 15 Jul 2020, 21:42
by ricnunes
Corsair1963 wrote:My point was the Swiss Public doesn't sound to thrilled about the idea of buying a fighter in the first place. So, cost would clearly be a big factor to consider....


Or, on the other hand and even if the Swiss Public isn't thrilled about the idea of buying a fighter then I believe that it's possible that if the decision to buy a new fighter aircraft is to go ahead (which it needs since even their Hornet fleet is aging) that it is perceived that it's better to purchase a good or even the best fighter instead of buying some 'cheaper patchwork'.

Note that it was the same the Swiss Public that voted in a referendum against purchasing the Gripen E, the aircraft which was the cheaper of that competition.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2020, 01:30
by madrat
The Swiss would probably be happy with a T-50 trainer offshoot if it comes down to raw cost.

For hardly any more budget they could get F-16's with some street cred.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 16 Jul 2020, 07:10
by Corsair1963
In short nobody has any idea who will win........ :?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 20 Aug 2020, 18:01
by swiss
First poll is out.

It looks good for the new Fighter. 58 % yes vs 39 % no. And normally the yes share increases in a referendum until the vote.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... flugzeugen

At the moment, voters want to vote with a majority of 58 percent, or rather in favor of the purchase of new combat aircraft worth 6 billion francs. This is shown by the trend survey by gfs.bern on behalf of SRG SSR. The vote will take place on September 27th.

39 percent of the voters are certain or rather against the purchase of new combat aircraft. Only three percent of those questioned are still undecided. According to the research institute gfs.bern, which carried out the survey, this speaks in favor of “medium to highly advanced opinion-forming”.


Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 17:46
by eagle3000
58% Yes? Not so much.
50.1% of voters say yes to new fighter jets. 8670 votes make the difference.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?h ... -kampfjets

With that in mind, I would say the cheapest options still in the race have the best chances now.
Cheapest in perception that is.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 19:09
by noth
eagle3000 wrote:58% Yes? Not so much.
50.1% of voters say yes to new fighter jets. 8670 votes make the difference.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?h ... -kampfjets

With that in mind, I would say the cheapest options still in the race have the best chances now.
Cheapest in perception that is.


Turnout was remarkably high considering the Covid19 crisis. 59.3% nationaly is the highest I've seen it in decades for referendums. At least we can move forward now, and hopefully choose the best, but I doubt it'll be what fans here would like.

The chosen aircraft and SAM system will be announced in June 2021. There may yet be ANOTHER referendum on the chosen plane, I do hope not though.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 19:40
by magitsu
Early predictions of convincing yes turned out to be optimistic. Ended up being a nail-biter but the right result that doesn't make them a fighter acquisition pariah.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 20:30
by talkitron
Sounds like politicians will decide whether to respond to the results. Buying the Gripen or F-16V could be a good response.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 20:32
by magitsu
Victory this small is quite embarrassing, given it was the 2nd time around to make a convincing effort. So it's indeed interesting to see how it will be interpreted in the final decision.

Gripen or F-16 aren't in the Air 2030 competition. Eurofighter, Rafale, Super Hornet or F-35 for $6.5 billion, 30-40 units. Certainly they can do something a bit unexpected seeing as Gripen pick in 2014 was politicians doing too.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 20:40
by ricnunes
magitsu wrote:Victory this small is quite embarrassing, given it was the 2nd time around to make a convincing effort. So it's indeed interesting to see how it will be interpreted in the final decision.

Gripen or F-16 aren't in the competition.


Precisely.
The aircraft in the Swiss competition are: Super Hornet, F-35, Rafale and Typhoon.

If cost is a major factor specially by looking at the referendum result (which I trend to agree) then I would say that the F-35 has a very good chance of winning. It's much cheaper in terms of acquisition than the Rafale and Typhoon and in this metric its probably slightly cheaper than the Super Hornet. In terms of sustainment cost the F-35 cost is driving down while the Super Hornet, Rafale and Typhoon production lines will eventually close (and being replaced by more advanced aircraft) which means that the sustainment costs for these aircraft are likely to go up.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Sep 2020, 20:47
by magitsu
Some comments/analysis:

Lukas Golder of the GfS Bern research institute said on Sunday that the high turnout of urban voters, who are generally more critical of the army, may have driven the close result. The cost of the plan and the current “pandemic effect” were also decisive, he said.

Defence Minister Viola Amherd welcomed the victory and said the government would now proceed with the evaluation of four fighter models bidding for the contract: the Lockheed-Martin F-35, Boeing’s Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, and Airbus’s Eurofighter Typhoon.

In principle, voters will have no further say on the type of new fighters to be purchased. However, the Group for a Switzerland without an Army (GSoA), which led the opposition campaign, has already said it will launch a people’s initiative to challenge the government’s choice. Amherd said this will not derail her plans to finalise the contract by 2021.

Other opposition figures were both enthused and disappointed by the nearness of the loss on Sunday, which Green Party president Regula Rytz said was a “sensational” victory in itself.

Roger Nordmann, vice-president of the leftwing Social Democrats, said the tiny margin of victory showed that the army suffers from a “credibility problem”. However, he praised Amherd for the manner of the campaign.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-set- ... e/46057020

So they achieved the main objective, but emboldened the opposition. Scary result, but good enough for now. Imagine if other countries had basically their Air Force's existence on the line in this way.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2020, 15:09
by krieger22
I'm inclined to agree with Golder's assessment. Coronatime is a pretty weird time to vote on whether you want to get a new fighter aircraft type, since someone will inevitably spin that you can't bomb a pandemic out of existence. And they did do just that.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 01:03
by weasel1962
For the record. DSCA swiss F-35A & F-18E/F notices.

https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/switz ... nd-weapons
WASHINGTON, September 30, 2020 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Switzerland of forty (40) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft and related equipment for an estimated cost of $6.58 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of Switzerland requested to buy up to forty (40) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft; forty-six (46) Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines; forty (40) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II+ (Plus) Tactical Missiles; fifty (50) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs); six (6) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II Special Air Training Missiles (NATMS); four (4) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II Tactical Guidance Units; ten (10) Sidewinder AIM-9X Block II CATM Guidance Units; eighteen (18) KMU-572 JDAM Guidance Kits for GBU-54; twelve (12) Bomb MK-82 500LB, General Purpose; twelve (12) Bomb MK-82, Inert; twelve (12) GBU-53/B Small Diameter Bomb II (SDB II) All-Up Round (AUR); and eight (8) GBU-53/B SDB II Guided Test Vehicle (GTV). Also included are Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communications, Computer and Intelligence/Communications, Navigational, and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F‑35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center access; F-35 Performance Based Logistics; software development/integration; flight test instrumentation; aircraft ferry and tanker support; Detector Laser DSU-38A/B, Detector Laser DSU-38A(D-2)/B, FMU-139D/B Fuze, KMU-572(D-2)/B Trainer (JDAM), 40 inch Wing Release Lanyard; GBU-53/B SDB II Weapon Load Crew Trainers (WLCT); Cartridge, 25 mm PGU-23/U; weapons containers; aircraft and munitions support and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; repair and return support; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated cost is $6.58 billion.


https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/switz ... nd-weapons
WASHINGTON, September 30, 2020 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Switzerland of forty (40) F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft and related equipment for an estimated cost of $7.452 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of Switzerland has requested to buy up to thirty-six (36) F/A-18E Super Hornet aircraft; seventy-two (72) F414-GE-400 engines (installed); four (4) F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft; eight (8) F414-GE-400 engines (installed); sixteen (16) F414-GE-400 engines (spares); forty-four (44) M61A2 20MM gun systems; twenty-five (25) Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared (ATFLIR)/other targeting pod; fifty-five (55) AN/ALR-67(V)3 Electric Warfare Countermeasures Receiving sets; fifty-five (55) AN/ALQ-214 Integrated Countermeasures systems; forty-eight (48) Multifunctional Information Distribution Systems – Joint Tactical Radio Systems (MIDS-JTRS); forty-eight (48) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS); two hundred sixty-four (264) LAU-127E/A guided missile launchers; forty-eight (48) AN/AYK-29 Distributed Targeting Processor – Networked (DTP-N); twenty-seven (27) Infrared Search and Track (IRST) systems; forty (40) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder tactical missiles; fifty (50) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs); six (6) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder Special Air Training Missiles (NATMs); four (4) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder tactical guidance units; ten (10) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder CATM guidance units; eighteen (18) KMU-572 JDAM Guidance Kits for GBU-54; twelve (12) Bomb MK-82 500LB, General Purpose; twelve (12) Bomb MK-82, Inert; twelve (12) GBU-53/B Small Diameter Bomb II (SDB II) All-Up Round (AUR); and eight (8) GBU-53/B SDB II Guided Test Vehicle (GTV). Also included are AN/APG-79 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars; High Speed Video Network (HSVN) Digital Video Recorder (HDVR); AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Goggles (NVG); AN/AVS-11 Night Vision Cueing Device (NVCD); AN/ALE-47 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Systems; AN/ARC-210 Communication System; AN/APX-111 Combined Interrogator Transponder; AN/ALE-55 Towed Decoys; launchers (LAU-115D/A, LAU-116B/A, LAU118A); Training Aids, Devices and Spares; Technical Data Engineering Change Proposals; Avionics Software Support; Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); Data Transfer Unit (DTU); Accurate Navigation (ANAV) Global Positioning System (GPS) Navigation; KIV-78 Dual Channel Encryptor, Identification Friend or Foe (IFF); Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CADs/PADs); Technical Publications; AN/PYQ-10C Simple Key Loader (SKL); Aircraft Spares; other support equipment; Aircraft Armament Equipment (AAE); aircraft ferry; transportation costs; other technical assistance; engineering technical assistance; contractor engineering technical support; logistics technical assistance; Repair of Repairables (RoR); aircrew and maintenance training; contractor logistics support; flight test services; Foreign Liaison Officer (FLO) support; auxiliary fuel tanks, system integration and testing; software development/integration; and other related elements of logistics and program support. For AIM-9X: containers; missile support and test equipment; provisioning; spare and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical data; and U.S. Government and contractor technical assistance and other related logistics support. For GBU-53/B SDB II and GBU-54: Detector Laser DSU-38A/B, Detector Laser DSU-38A(D-2)/B, FMU-139D/B Fuze, KMU-572(D-2)/B Trainer (JDAM), 40-inch Wing Release Lanyard; GBU-53/B SDB II Weapon Load Crew Trainers (WLCT); weapons containers; munitions support and test equipment; spares and repair parts; repair and return support; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical, and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated cost is $7.452 billion.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 01:21
by spazsinbad
:applause: Nice find thanks 'veasali' (schwyzer-deutsch methinks) for 'little weasel'. :D 1 BILLION difference. COOL. Cheap F-35s.

Another story 'bout'it:
"...the potential packages are not a sign that Switzerland has decided the Lockheed Martin F-35 or Boeing produced F/A-18 are their fighter of the future. Rather, the announcement is a bureaucratic move by State and DSCA to make sure that, should the jets be selected, there will not be delays in getting the stealth fighter cleared. The DSCA has previously done so with F-35 requests from Belgium and Canada.

The F-35 package comes with an estimated price tag of $6.58 billion, while the F/A-18 package with a price tag of $7.452 billion. Both those totals, if they represent final figures — and DSCA notifications often do not — would exceed the approved $6.5 billion budget for the program...." https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -billions/

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 06:42
by hornetfinn
spazsinbad wrote::applause: Nice find thanks 'veasali' (schwyzer-deutsch methinks) for 'little weasel'. :D 1 BILLION difference. COOL. Cheap F-35s.


Yeah, that definitely looks cheap. Especially considering that with F-35 they'd get more IRST/FLIR/targeting pods (40 vs 25). Not to mention better performance all around. With that 900 million USD difference, the Swiss could buy a lot of weapons for F-35s. Only way Super Hornet is competitive here is if it has really significantly lower operating costs and I seriously doubt that.

Of course these are not the final costs, but I'd think the relative price difference will remain as the costs should be quite easy to calculate.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 08:27
by noth
hornetfinn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote::applause: Nice find thanks 'veasali' (schwyzer-deutsch methinks) for 'little weasel'. :D 1 BILLION difference. COOL. Cheap F-35s.


Yeah, that definitely looks cheap. Especially considering that with F-35 they'd get more IRST/FLIR/targeting pods (40 vs 25). Not to mention better performance all around. With that 900 million USD difference, the Swiss could buy a lot of weapons for F-35s. Only way Super Hornet is competitive here is if it has really significantly lower operating costs and I seriously doubt that.

Of course these are not the final costs, but I'd think the relative price difference will remain as the costs should be quite easy to calculate.


They're not interested in buying a lot of weapons, especially air to ground ones. The mission is really limited, which is why F-35 is looking overkill to many a politician out there. Air to ground has basically been abandonned or will be doled out to UAVs.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 09:13
by hornetfinn
noth wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote::applause: Nice find thanks 'veasali' (schwyzer-deutsch methinks) for 'little weasel'. :D 1 BILLION difference. COOL. Cheap F-35s.


Yeah, that definitely looks cheap. Especially considering that with F-35 they'd get more IRST/FLIR/targeting pods (40 vs 25). Not to mention better performance all around. With that 900 million USD difference, the Swiss could buy a lot of weapons for F-35s. Only way Super Hornet is competitive here is if it has really significantly lower operating costs and I seriously doubt that.

Of course these are not the final costs, but I'd think the relative price difference will remain as the costs should be quite easy to calculate.


They're not interested in buying a lot of weapons, especially air to ground ones. The mission is really limited, which is why F-35 is looking overkill to many a politician out there. Air to ground has basically been abandonned or will be doled out to UAVs.


No, but they definitely seem intrested in getting some air-to-ground capability as these DSCA notices have small amount of JDAMs and SDB IIs. They will also need new MRAAMs at some point, although they now have almost new AIM-120C-7s which they can use for both aircraft. But they have about 150 of those which means they have less than 4 missiles for each aircraft. Of course that's enough for anything less than actual war, which is very unlikely for Switzerland. But my point was that with the same money, they would get far superior capabilties with F-35 than with Super Hornet. Or they can save money in doing so.

F-35 might seem like overkill in capabilities, but it also seems that only Gripen E has any hope of being cheaper option in their competition. Besides, all other competitors also emphasize their air-to-ground and multirole capabilties.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 10:41
by weasel1962
agree with hornetfinn. Munitions in Swiss F-18s/F-5s can be used for the F-18E/F or F-35s. There is no need for substantial increases in munition stocks. What may happened as older munitions hit shelf life would then be better replacements. The 150 120C-7s replaced approx same numbers of 120As bought in the 90s. They also have 100+ AIM-9Xs. Its enough for peacetime.

The Swiss air force also operate a few hundred AGM-65s. SDB IIs/LJDAM capability will supplement/replace that capability. Again, the purchase is more to validate the capability.

A C-17 can deliver ~300 AIM-120s per sortie. It wouldn't take long to stock up in an emergency.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 11:15
by Tiger05
Mavericks are no longer in the Swiss AF inventory and havent been for a long time. The Swiss AF lost its air-to-ground capability when its Hawker Hunters were retired in 1994. Swiss AF fighters have been limited to air-to-air for the last 25+ years. They could have just dropped the "A" in the F/A-18 designation and simply call them F-18C/D. Thats what the Finns did. :)

Now it seems that the Swiss are taking baby steps towards restoring that lost capability. Thats interesting...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 20:27
by marauder2048
Tiger05 wrote:Mavericks are no longer in the Swiss AF inventory and havent been for a long time. The Swiss AF lost its air-to-ground capability when its Hawker Hunters were retired in 1994. Swiss AF fighters have been limited to air-to-air for the last 25+ years. They could have just dropped the "A" in the F/A-18 designation and simply call them F-18C/D. Thats what the Finns did. :)

Now it seems that the Swiss are taking baby steps towards restoring that lost capability. Thats interesting...


If you go back to the "original" Swiss fighter competition from 2009, all of the contenders were evaluated
for their performance in the strike role.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 00:39
by weasel1962
When an ATFLIR is inducted onto a hornet, that's a statement by itself. I think A2G has always been politically sensitive in the Swiss context. The Swiss military imho recognized the need for A2G, even to the extent of considering that for its F-5s. Yes, air policing has been primary function of Swiss fighters in the past decades. Regardless, the replacement fighter will be A2G capable.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 01:43
by ricnunes
hornetfinn wrote:
noth wrote:They're not interested in buying a lot of weapons, especially air to ground ones. The mission is really limited, which is why F-35 is looking overkill to many a politician out there. Air to ground has basically been abandonned or will be doled out to UAVs.


No, but they definitely seem intrested in getting some air-to-ground capability as these DSCA notices have small amount of JDAMs and SDB IIs. They will also need new MRAAMs at some point, although they now have almost new AIM-120C-7s which they can use for both aircraft. But they have about 150 of those which means they have less than 4 missiles for each aircraft. Of course that's enough for anything less than actual war, which is very unlikely for Switzerland. But my point was that with the same money, they would get far superior capabilties with F-35 than with Super Hornet. Or they can save money in doing so.

F-35 might seem like overkill in capabilities, but it also seems that only Gripen E has any hope of being cheaper option in their competition. Besides, all other competitors also emphasize their air-to-ground and multirole capabilties.


Exactly!
Even for air policing missions the F-35 is best choice among all competitors. If someone thinks that a Super Hornet, Rafale or Typhoon are better than the F-35 in air policing missions then I have a bridge to sell.
Moreover those FLIR pod/sensors (which the F-35 already comes integrated with) are also extremely useful for Air-to-Air missions (including air policing missions) as well as for Air-to-Ground missions since for example they allow VID from a very far and 'standoff' distance/range.

Moreover, there's no such thing as 'overkill capability' when it comes to military equipment specially if such 'overkill capability' comes at the cheaper price compared to the other 'non-overkill' options :wink:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 17:49
by noth
ricnunes wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
noth wrote:They're not interested in buying a lot of weapons, especially air to ground ones. The mission is really limited, which is why F-35 is looking overkill to many a politician out there. Air to ground has basically been abandonned or will be doled out to UAVs.


No, but they definitely seem intrested in getting some air-to-ground capability as these DSCA notices have small amount of JDAMs and SDB IIs. They will also need new MRAAMs at some point, although they now have almost new AIM-120C-7s which they can use for both aircraft. But they have about 150 of those which means they have less than 4 missiles for each aircraft. Of course that's enough for anything less than actual war, which is very unlikely for Switzerland. But my point was that with the same money, they would get far superior capabilties with F-35 than with Super Hornet. Or they can save money in doing so.

F-35 might seem like overkill in capabilities, but it also seems that only Gripen E has any hope of being cheaper option in their competition. Besides, all other competitors also emphasize their air-to-ground and multirole capabilties.


Exactly!
Even for air policing missions the F-35 is best choice among all competitors. If someone thinks that a Super Hornet, Rafale or Typhoon are better than the F-35 in air policing missions then I have a bridge to sell.
Moreover those FLIR pod/sensors (which the F-35 already comes integrated with) are also extremely useful for Air-to-Air missions (including air policing missions) as well as for Air-to-Ground missions since for example they allow VID from a very far and 'standoff' distance/range.

Moreover, there's no such thing as 'overkill capability' when it comes to military equipment specially if such 'overkill capability' comes at the cheaper price compared to the other 'non-overkill' options :wink:


I said "overkill to many a politician". Your military arguments are sound, but you have no idea of the hostile political climate here. We have left wing parties arguing that the armed forces should be abolished. We have politicians on both sides of the aisle who are anti-American for various reasons (Obama administration forcing the end to Swiss banking secrecy doesn't exactly make people grateful, I can tell you). There are those who think only European aircraft should be acquired, to curry favour with the EU right when we're (re)negociating a new institutional deal. This is still has to get Parliamentary assent on the final package. So yes, they're likely to push for the *least* capable platform. Don't be surprised. 50.1% made both sides think they won.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 22:37
by ricnunes
noth wrote:I said "overkill to many a politician". Your military arguments are sound, but you have no idea of the hostile political climate here. We have left wing parties arguing that the armed forces should be abolished. We have politicians on both sides of the aisle who are anti-American for various reasons (Obama administration forcing the end to Swiss banking secrecy doesn't exactly make people grateful, I can tell you). There are those who think only European aircraft should be acquired, to curry favour with the EU right when we're (re)negociating a new institutional deal. This is still has to get Parliamentary assent on the final package. So yes, they're likely to push for the *least* capable platform. Don't be surprised. 50.1% made both sides think they won.


I do get what you're saying but one of the most important arguments when purchasing something like a new fighter aircraft fleet in a political perspective is still the cost of that same fighter aircraft fleet. IMO, it becomes politically hard to push for a much more expensive fighter aircraft which at the same time is less effective just because it is 'European' which is exactly what happens with the Rafale or Typhoon compared to the F-35.
Heck, even the F-35 seems to be cheaper than the Super Hornet if we look at past posts in this same thread.
And I would even say that it could be 'easy' to overcome that 'buy European' argument with the F-35 - Just have the Swiss F-35s build (or assembled) in Italy :wink:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 22:58
by energo
hornetfinn wrote:Only way Super Hornet is competitive here is if it has really significantly lower operating costs and I seriously doubt that.

Of course these are not the final costs, but I'd think the relative price difference will remain as the costs should be quite easy to calculate.


A reminder of the Danes evaluation (I put this together rather quickly, so I'm counting on you to point out any errors):

https://fmn.dk/temaer/kampfly/Documents ... mmary5.pdf

Procurement cost per aircraft (ajusted for 2016 currency):
F-35: 84 million USD
Super Hornet: 125 million USD
Eurofighter: 127 million USD

Sustainment per aircraft:
Super Hornet: 108 million USD
F-35: 136 million USD
Eurofighter: 165 million USD

Life-cycle costs over 30 year per aircraft:
F-35: 221 million USD
Super Hornet: 233 million USD
Eurofighter: 291 million USD

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 00:36
by eagle3000
ricnunes wrote:I do get what you're saying but one of the most important arguments when purchasing something like a new fighter aircraft fleet in a political perspective is still the cost of that same fighter aircraft fleet. IMO, it becomes politically hard to push for a much more expensive fighter aircraft which at the same time is less effective just because it is 'European' which is exactly what happens with the Rafale or Typhoon compared to the F-35.
Heck, even the F-35 seems to be cheaper than the Super Hornet if we look at past posts in this same thread.
And I would even say that it could be 'easy' to overcome that 'buy European' argument with the F-35 - Just have the Swiss F-35s build (or assembled) in Italy :wink:


Real cost doesn't matter. The public thinks the F-35 is the most expensive option. If not in purchase costs, then in operating costs.
The F-35 has the additional disadvantage of the ALIS, with it's permanent connection to the US. There is a real fear of a killswitch function. Made in Italy wouldn't change that.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 02:00
by spazsinbad
KILLSWITCH? Talk to the hand. Some memes never die. I'LL BE BACK. Give some references please for this KILLSWITCH.

IF It is 'JUST A FEAR' then please pile on a bunch of real fears. CRASHING for one but hey you knew that. SINGLE ENGINE?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 02:11
by eagle3000
It doesn't matter if it's real or not. Dependency on the US is regarded as very critical, in left but also right circles.
The left have threatened to conduct a popular initiative to ban the purchase of any US jet in case the gov. selects a US jet.
The threat is real.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 02:26
by element1loop
eagle3000 wrote:The F-35 has the additional disadvantage of the ALIS, with it's permanent connection to the US. There is a real fear of a killswitch function.


It's always been possible to ban supply of parts and weapons, ALIS changed nothing.

eagle3000 wrote:Real cost doesn't matter. The public thinks the F-35 is the most expensive option. If not in purchase costs, then in operating costs.


What the public thinks about fighter unit prices doesn't matter at all, as no one votes on the basis of fighter procurement and operating costs.

They do vote on the basis of the overall economy however, and they do like their country to have a better than average defense force capability and technology level.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 05:55
by edpop
The US State Department has preemptively cleared Switzerland to purchase the F-35A joint strike fighter and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, just days after a public vote narrowly ok’d the Swiss government to move forward with a planned procurement of new fighter aircraft. The F-35 deal external link comes with an estimated price tag of $6.58 billion, while the F/A-18 external link package with a price tag of $7.452 billion. The potential FMSs are not a sign that Switzerland has decided the Lockheed Martin F-35 or Boeing produced F/A-18 are their fighter of the future.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 15:18
by ricnunes
eagle3000 wrote:Real cost doesn't matter. The public thinks the F-35 is the most expensive option. If not in purchase costs, then in operating costs.


So what you're trying to say is that the public is so dumb that it can never change its mind when presented with facts?

Then I wonder how in all western democracies (including Switzerland) sometimes governments changes?? I guess that this fact alone is more than evidence that the public can really change its mind when it's presented with a set of NEW facts.

And regarding the F-35, the 'NEW' fact is that in terms of 'purchase costs + operating costs' (which is what really matters, cost-wise) the F-35 seems to be the cheapest option (look at energo's post, for instance).

Not that the public opinion matters much regarding this since the stage for consulting the public seems to be behind regarding the Swiss competition.


eagle3000 wrote:The F-35 has the additional disadvantage of the ALIS, with it's permanent connection to the US. There is a real fear of a killswitch function. Made in Italy wouldn't change that.


ALIS and its functionality has been discussed in this forum to the death, I believe. However and trying to keep it short here's a memo: ALIS doesn't have any 'killswitch'!
Resuming and simplifying, ALIS is a system to help the aircraft's (F-35) maintenance. Basically and in terms of 'connectivity to the USA' what it does is to predict when many/most of the worldwide fleet of F-35s will need a certain part and then place the biggest possible single order of that part since and according to economics 1-0-1 the bigger the order the cheaper will be the cost per part, thus making the F-35 maintenance more effective and cheaper as possible.
So no, ALIS isn't needed or is mandatory in order to be able to operate a F-35 fleet but having it connected to ALIS will result in a more effective and cheaper way of operating this same F-35 fleet.


eagle3000 wrote:Dependency on the US is regarded as very critical, in left but also right circles.
The left have threatened to conduct a popular initiative to ban the purchase of any US jet in case the gov. selects a US jet.
The threat is real.


I don't know if you already noticed but the Swiss air force operates two fighter aircraft fleets and guess what? Both these fighter aircraft are American (F/A-18 and F-5)!
I believe that you cannot judge a minority sector of the Swiss population and politicians which may be anti-American as being representative of the majority of the Swiss population.

Moreover, if you believe Switzerland is that much, much more closer to the European countries (in terms of foreign relationships) compared to the US maybe you should think twice because last time I checked Switzerland is not part of the European Union and neither has the desire to be!

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 20:04
by XanderCrews
eagle3000 wrote:
Real cost doesn't matter. The public thinks the F-35 is the most expensive option. If not in purchase costs, then in operating costs.



A simple look at the numbers would quickly debunk that one. sure the public is very dumb, but 6.6 billion vs 7.4 billion


The F-35 has the additional disadvantage of the ALIS, with it's permanent connection to the US. There is a real fear of a killswitch function. Made in Italy wouldn't change that.


uh the fear is "real" or the "kill switch" is "real"?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 20:08
by XanderCrews
element1loop wrote:
eagle3000 wrote:The F-35 has the additional disadvantage of the ALIS, with it's permanent connection to the US. There is a real fear of a killswitch function.

It's always been possible to ban supply of parts and weapons, ALIS changed nothing.
]

correct.

ALIS "never works", but you "need ALIS to fly", but the F-35 fleet is at 300,000 hours with a system that doesn't work, that you need to fly it?

:|

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 22:02
by noth
One really dumb "argument" I'm seeing bandied about on the Francophone (thus Rafale cheering) side of aviation forums is that amongst the many many supposed faults of the F-35, it can't fly in thunderstorms because its fuel tanks might catch fire. Where this comes from I have no idea, but they constantly bring this up of late. Anyone here who's more atuned to the program than I able to explain this? Seems incredibly unlikely.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 23:20
by XanderCrews
noth wrote:One really dumb "argument" I'm seeing bandied about on the Francophone (thus Rafale cheering) side of aviation forums is that amongst the many many supposed faults of the F-35, it can't fly in thunderstorms because its fuel tanks might catch fire. Where this comes from I have no idea, but they constantly bring this up of late. Anyone here who's more atuned to the program than I able to explain this? Seems incredibly unlikely.



https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ter-169505

This one is recent so thats probably what prompted it. In a month they will have moved on to whatever the next "bomb shell" is.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 03 Oct 2020, 23:54
by eagle3000
element1loop wrote:It's always been possible to ban supply of parts and weapons, ALIS changed nothing.


Tell me about it. But for some circles, the constant connection ALIS requires is a no go. This is seen as total dependence whereas the fighter jet acquisition was sold as ensuring indepence.

element1loop wrote:What the public thinks about fighter unit prices doesn't matter at all, as no one votes on the basis of fighter procurement and operating costs.

They do vote on the basis of the overall economy however, and they do like their country to have a better than average defense force capability and technology level.


It totally matters. If the F-35 should be selected and the public thinks the sustainment cost plus the aforementioned dependence are unacceptable, the public is likely to support a popular initiative to ban the F-35.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 00:04
by eagle3000
ricnunes wrote:So what you're trying to say is that the public is so dumb that it can never change its mind when presented with facts?

Then I wonder how in all western democracies (including Switzerland) sometimes governments changes?? I guess that this fact alone is more than evidence that the public can really change its mind when it's presented with a set of NEW facts.

And regarding the F-35, the 'NEW' fact is that in terms of 'purchase costs + operating costs' (which is what really matters, cost-wise) the F-35 seems to be the cheapest option (look at energo's post, for instance).


There are no facts about operating costs covering some 30+ years, unless you have a time machine. There's just estimates.

Energos post with the Danish info is outdated as Switzerland will be offered Block III SHs with either 9000 or 10000 hours of service life.
The EF I see as total outsider anyway. Airbus' only chances is if Dassault should try to screw over the Swiss, imho.

ricnunes wrote:Not that the public opinion matters much regarding this since the stage for consulting the public seems to be behind regarding the Swiss competition.


Again, it totally matters. The Group for a Switzerland Without an Army have already made it clear they will start a popular initiative to block an F-35 purchase if the gov. selects the Lightning 2.
Considering the very narrow victory this time plus the issues with the F-35 in particular and the US in general, I don't think this is a risk the gov. wants to take. 30-40 of anything is better than 0 F-35. Even Eurofighters. :mrgreen:

ricnunes wrote:ALIS and its functionality has been discussed in this forum to the death, I believe. However and trying to keep it short here's a memo: ALIS doesn't have any 'killswitch'!
Resuming and simplifying, ALIS is a system to help the aircraft's (F-35) maintenance. Basically and in terms of 'connectivity to the USA' what it does is to predict when many/most of the worldwide fleet of F-35s will need a certain part and then place the biggest possible single order of that part since and according to economics 1-0-1 the bigger the order the cheaper will be the cost per part, thus making the F-35 maintenance more effective and cheaper as possible.
So no, ALIS isn't needed or is mandatory in order to be able to operate a F-35 fleet but having it connected to ALIS will result in a more effective and cheaper way of operating this same F-35 fleet.


Sure. You want to go ahead and try to sell this to the Swiss public, so a majority of the people would support an F-35 purchase? Be my guest.
From my experience, most people didn't even understand the funds for this purchase are sourced from the regular budget, so not a sincle Swiss franc more will be spent. But most people simply don't care enough or don't understand technicalities.

ricnunes wrote:I don't know if you already noticed but the Swiss air force operates two fighter aircraft fleets and guess what? Both these fighter aircraft are American (F/A-18 and F-5)!
I believe that you cannot judge a minority sector of the Swiss population and politicians which may be anti-American as being representative of the majority of the Swiss population.

Moreover, if you believe Switzerland is that much, much more closer to the European countries (in terms of foreign relationships) compared to the US maybe you should think twice because last time I checked Switzerland is not part of the European Union and neither has the desire to be!


I think you'll find the situation has changed quite a bit since 1993 when the decision has been made to buy the Hornets.

Here's my prediction. If the Trump is president of the US sometimes next year when the Swiss gov. announces their selection, I give the F-35 a chance of winning somewhere between nil and zero. 99% Rafale.
If not, I'd say about 20% for an US jet and 80% Rafale.
Overall, 90% Rafale.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 00:05
by spazsinbad
'ealgle3000' said: "...for some circles, the constant connection ALIS requires is a no go. This is seen as total dependence whereas the fighter jet acquisition was sold as ensuring indepence...." Do these 'circles' matter? The F-35 can function for the coronavirus quarantine period (14 days or more) entirely without connection. Some countries already have 'firewalls' for their perceived sensitive F-35 info that is NOT passed back to the main ALIS server in USofA. (BTW ALIS is being replaced by ODIN soon - how that replacement will work in this regard is not known AFAIK.) At moment an expeditionary form of ALIS allows a much longer operating period with very little information flow back & forth. ALIS is for the benefit of all F-35 users so I guess the SWISS being NEUTRAL don't want any part of it and hence they want no part of the F-35. Bad luck for them. It seems clear to me that this is irrelevant now anyway, despite a threat to repeal whatever decision on which aircraft is made, by a future referendum. If the SWISS gubmint/fighter manufacturer have any sense they will make the selection contract have severe repercussions if it is voided by such a referendum. Where does it leave SCHWYZ?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 00:20
by eagle3000
XanderCrews wrote:A simple look at the numbers would quickly debunk that one. sure the public is very dumb, but 6.6 billion vs 7.4 billion


These are a) ceiling amounts for any offer, no offer over 6 billion CHF / 6.5 billion USD will be accepted anyway. And b) they don't cover operating costs.

XanderCrews wrote:uh the fear is "real" or the "kill switch" is "real"?


The fear is real. It would make such an easy target in any campaign, I'm pretty sure the Swiss gov, wants to avoid that battle.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 00:26
by eagle3000
spazsinbad wrote:Do these 'circles' matter?


Well, you could argue they convinced 49.9% of the voters, which is already pretty meaningful I'd say. They only need to convince about 4500 voters more.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 01:08
by spazsinbad
eagle3000 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Do these 'circles' matter?

Well, you could argue they convinced 49.9% of the voters, which is already pretty meaningful I'd say. They only need to convince about 4500 voters more.

Those same 'circles of appropriate persuasion' can argue against whatever aircraft is selected - apparently - NOT JUST THE F-35. I must say I'm not familiar with the wording (in English) of the referendum. Can the government pose a referendum saying the ''fighter decision / replace decision' is final and no correspondence/referendum will be entertained about it?

BTW you are not counting the silent vote which may or may not be MEH about it all but when threatened may just vote for the F-35 or another American killswitch controlled aircraft the SuperFrickin'LaserSharkHorneto? I would guess no F-35 operator is much concerned with the William Tells being neutral and not much use in an F-35 allied coalition force. Although having an F-35 stopover in the Alps will be nice; & looking good at AXALP - when the virus fades away yodelling.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 01:41
by noth
XanderCrews wrote:
noth wrote:One really dumb "argument" I'm seeing bandied about on the Francophone (thus Rafale cheering) side of aviation forums is that amongst the many many supposed faults of the F-35, it can't fly in thunderstorms because its fuel tanks might catch fire. Where this comes from I have no idea, but they constantly bring this up of late. Anyone here who's more atuned to the program than I able to explain this? Seems incredibly unlikely.



https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... ter-169505

This one is recent so thats probably what prompted it. In a month they will have moved on to whatever the next "bomb shell" is.


Thanks. The NI, another useless "news" source. Yes they basically operate on the "reporting on the Trump administration" model.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 02:20
by noth
spazsinbad wrote:
eagle3000 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Do these 'circles' matter?

Well, you could argue they convinced 49.9% of the voters, which is already pretty meaningful I'd say. They only need to convince about 4500 voters more.

Those same 'circles of appropriate persuasion' can argue against whatever aircraft is selected - apparently - NOT JUST THE F-35. I must say I'm not familiar with the wording (in English) of the referendum. Can the government pose a referendum saying the ''fighter decision / replace decision' is final and no correspondence/referendum will be entertained about it?

BTW you are not counting the silent vote which may or may not be MEH about it all but when threatened may just vote for the F-35 or another American killswitch controlled aircraft the SuperFrickin'LaserSharkHorneto? I would guess no F-35 operator is much concerned with the William Tells being neutral and not much use in an F-35 allied coalition force. Although having an F-35 stopover in the Alps will be nice; & looking good at AXALP - when the virus fades away yodelling.


The silent vote? We don't have that here. Switzerland's population believes the main threat is cyber, terrorist, and climate. Turnout was exceptionaly high (59.4%) because immigration control was on the ballot. If it sinks back down to the usual under 40%, only activists vote, and that's not in our favour. However, it'll take a ballot initiative, it needs not just a majority of the votes but also of the cantons (so 14 of 26), and they don't have that based on last Sunday's vote. But it's given them wings, believe me.

And yes "circles" do have some influence, there's always some dumb leftwing radio or tv journalist invoking some blog as expert advice on something, be it any subject. On the military, the population is under informed, and in the Latin parts, mostly hostile, because of negative experience during military service and/or trying to get out of it. People's civic purpose is eroding fast here, the young only seem interested in climate change, everything else barely motivates them beyond saying no. People who get their information off smartphones are wide open to manipulation against the choice of one aircraft or an other, as you point out. We'll see what happens in June 2021, if the economy has survived well enough, asi t has so far.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 03:48
by spazsinbad
Forgive me but as I see things the government of Switzerland has been given the OK to pick a fighter? Why does not the controversy end at selection? I'll presume the selection cannot be changed? So why does your FUD matter. Inexplicable.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 04:21
by noth
spazsinbad wrote:Forgive me but as I see things the government of Switzerland has been given the OK to pick a fighter? Why does not the controversy end at selection? I'll presume the selection cannot be changed? So why does your FUD matter. Inexplicable.


The result was so close that the opponents think they have a chance at a ballot initiative. Yes they have the go ahead, but that's on fighter acquisition at a price of 6B CHF. Final choice of fighter may face fresh opposition. It shouldn't, but this Parliament leans further left than it used to. It's not FUD, it's what may happen. The politics are swirling a lot more than expected around this project. But the end result will only be known in about 11-12 months. Till then, plenty of inanities will show up to dupe the population.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 05:18
by spazsinbad
'noth' said above: "... it's what may happen..." So the sky is NOT falling and yet the SKY MAY FALL? Duck and Cover indeed.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 04 Oct 2020, 21:39
by ricnunes
eagle3000 wrote:There are no facts about operating costs covering some 30+ years, unless you have a time machine. There's just estimates.

Energos post with the Danish info is outdated as Switzerland will be offered Block III SHs with either 9000 or 10000 hours of service life.
The EF I see as total outsider anyway. Airbus' only chances is if Dassault should try to screw over the Swiss, imho.


Yes, these are estimates and the estimates aren't only for the F-35 but it's also for all other competitors. None of the competitors (Super Hornet, Rafale and Typhoon) have 30+ years of service.

And speaking of facts, the FACT is that when a fighter aircraft reaches the end of its production line its operating/sustainment costs will increase as opposed to a fighter aircraft whose full production line is about to start where its operating/sustainment costs will definitely decrease and guess what?? The full production line for the Super Hornet, Rafale and Typhoon will eventually and soon come to an end while the full production line of the F-35 is about to begin.
The above together with the already lower procurement cost will inevitably make the F-35 'purchase + operating costs' cheaper compared to its competitors and while this is still an 'estimate', this same 'estimate' is and will inevitably become more and more a reality.


eagle3000 wrote:Again, it totally matters. The Group for a Switzerland Without an Army have already made it clear they will start a popular initiative to block an F-35 purchase if the gov. selects the Lightning 2.


And what's percentage of the total population of Switzerland that same group represents??

And by looking at that group's name 'Switzerland Without an Army', something tells me that same group will attempt to start initiatives to block any other fighter aircraft if selected and not only try to block the F-35. For instance I would say that if the Rafale gets selected (as you seem to hint/bet) then it is likely that this same group will attempt to block it as well, don't you think?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Oct 2020, 05:07
by eagle3000
ricnunes wrote:Yes, these are estimates and the estimates aren't only for the F-35 but it's also for all other competitors. None of the competitors (Super Hornet, Rafale and Typhoon) have 30+ years of service.


Well the SH at least has 20+ years, Rafale almost 20 now and EF around 15 years of service.
But true, there are uncertainties for all. But considering the F-35 is the newest and arguably the most complex option, it has the highest risk for unpleasant surprises. Sure any future issues will be fixed because there are no alternatives, but Swiss AF is not the USAF.
Overall, I don't think the Swiss experts automatically rate the F-35 best in operating cost because LM says so, they'll be a bit more thorough ;)

ricnunes wrote:And speaking of facts, the FACT is that when a fighter aircraft reaches the end of its production line its operating/sustainment costs will increase as opposed to a fighter aircraft whose full production line is about to start where its operating/sustainment costs will definitely decrease and guess what?? The full production line for the Super Hornet, Rafale and Typhoon will eventually and soon come to an end while the full production line of the F-35 is about to begin.
The above together with the already lower procurement cost will inevitably make the F-35 'purchase + operating costs' cheaper compared to its competitors and while this is still an 'estimate', this same 'estimate' is and will inevitably become more and more a reality.


Not inevitably, only a few things in life are inevitable. :wink:
Swiss AF and others happily operate F-5s at very low cost, where the production line is long gone. No problem because it's a simple aircraft. Simplicity is not what the F-35 is known for.
And lines closing soon is possibly true in case of the SH. But Rafale and EF lines are to remain open for some time now with new orders coming in. Also France is dependant on the Rafale until well after 2040.

ricnunes wrote:And what's percentage of the total population of Switzerland that same group represents??


We will hopefully never find out. But as I wrote earlier, only around 5000 people made the difference...

ricnunes wrote:And by looking at that group's name 'Switzerland Without an Army', something tells me that same group will attempt to start initiatives to block any other fighter aircraft if selected and not only try to block the F-35. For instance I would say that if the Rafale gets selected (as you seem to hint/bet) then it is likely that this same group will attempt to block it as well, don't you think?


They announced they will start the initiative in case an American jet will be selected. This is a very controversial issue in Switzerland and anything American makes it more so, esp. in case of a "stealth bomber". Anything European is regarded as less controversial and given the close call, they could argue that the population would have said no to an American jet, but not to a European solution so no need to have another initiative in that case.

I can see the gov. trying to avoid the risk of an initiave by not selecting an US jet regardless of the technical score.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 13 Oct 2020, 18:21
by ricnunes
eagle3000 wrote:Well the SH at least has 20+ years, Rafale almost 20 now and EF around 15 years of service.


Super Hornet's IOC was in 2001 which means around 19 years into service (and not 20+) but I digress...
Regarding the Rafale and EF one thing is sure since their 'day 1' in service: they are extremely expensive aircraft to purchase and operate. Look at the export orders that these aircraft had! 10+ for one country, 20+ for another, and so on... and all of them below 40.

Heck, even one of Switzerland neighbors this case Austria which operates 15 Eurofighters wants to retire them because they are too costly to operate!


eagle3000 wrote:But true, there are uncertainties for all. But considering the F-35 is the newest and arguably the most complex option, it has the highest risk for unpleasant surprises. Sure any future issues will be fixed because there are no alternatives, but Swiss AF is not the USAF.


And guess what? The F-16 when it was developed was also the most complex option at that time and fast forwarding today it's one of the most affordable fighter aircraft in existence today and why? Because very large numbers were ordered and by several countries which also placed large orders and still continue to place orders today. These are the same 'ingredients' behind the F-35.


eagle3000 wrote:Overall, I don't think the Swiss experts automatically rate the F-35 best in operating cost because LM says so, they'll be a bit more thorough ;)


Oh, here we go again :roll:

So everything that LM says is a lie why everything that others (Boeing, Dassault, Airbus) say is the absolute truth... :roll:


eagle3000 wrote:Not inevitably, only a few things in life are inevitable. :wink:


Again, it was 'inevitable' for the F-16 :wink:


eagle3000 wrote:Swiss AF and others happily operate F-5s at very low cost, where the production line is long gone. No problem because it's a simple aircraft. Simplicity is not what the F-35 is known for.


And guess what? Neither the SH, Rafale and EF are 'simple aircraft' to operate (as opposed to the F-5)!
All these three (3) aircraft (SH, Rafale and EF) are 'complex' aircraft like the F-35 is. Operating in smaller and with a lesser user base makes those 3 aircraft even 'more complex' to operate in the future.

Heck, the first time when I looked at the engine of a F-5 (actually it was an engine of a T-38) I though it was a scale model (almost a toy) of an engine :shock:
Again, neither the SH, Rafale and EF have nearly the 'simplicity' of the F-5. They are almost as complex as the F-35 but being much less capable (and more expensive).


eagle3000 wrote:And lines closing soon is possibly true in case of the SH. But Rafale and EF lines are to remain open for some time now with new orders coming in. Also France is dependant on the Rafale until well after 2040.


I'll give you two 'words':
NGF for the Rafale and Tempest for the EF.
This means that if the French (together with the Germans and Spanish) wants to develop the NGF and the British wants to develop the Typhoon (possibly together with the Swedish or Italians) they will need money something which is quite limited to these countries defense budgets so they will soon have to decide whether they wan't to continue to build their already becoming obsolete Rafales and Typhoon or to develop new and modern NGFs and Tempests? IMO, the answer is clear! (and no, they cannot afford both!)


eagle3000 wrote:They announced they will start the initiative in case an American jet will be selected. This is a very controversial issue in Switzerland and anything American makes it more so, esp. in case of a "stealth bomber". Anything European is regarded as less controversial and given the close call, they could argue that the population would have said no to an American jet, but not to a European solution so no need to have another initiative in that case.

I can see the gov. trying to avoid the risk of an initiave by not selecting an US jet regardless of the technical score.


And then again, there are short sighted people everywhere even in most developed countries such as Switzerland. If such people becomes a majority of a very big minority then the Swiss people as a whole will have much more things to worry about then the purchase of a fighter aircraft fleet...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 15 Oct 2020, 22:00
by XanderCrews
eagle3000 wrote:[

Well the SH at least has 20+ years, Rafale almost 20 now and EF around 15 years of service.
But true, there are uncertainties for all. But considering the F-35 is the newest and arguably the most complex option,


2 engines are always more "complex" than 1.

The "complexity" argument always gives me a giggle, so thanks for the smile.

it has the highest risk for unpleasant surprises. Sure any future issues will be fixed because there are no alternatives, but Swiss AF is not the USAF.


not really, but its some good FUD. The F-35 is longest and most assured option going into the future. if the Swiss timeline doesn't matter as much its a fine argument but the F-35 has more backing than any other fighter. I mean we have nearly 3 times as many F-35s built as Rafale, and there are more F-35s than Typhoons. And that's with that 20 year headstart you mentioned there. It just makes me laugh what some people consider "risky" The F-35 is more risky. didn't the Swiss opt for a paper airplane with Gripen E years back? Now the airplane with more units and orders produced than any other competitor and with all 3 variants in service is the "unknown" somehow?

I don't question some of your insider political info regarding the unique Swiss and the F-35. I just question your argruments. If you want to say "well the swiss politically don't like it, the youth are all green energy tree hugging types, and europe over all others" thats peachy, but some of this is just ridiculous. As you say the Swiss can evaluate it and the Air Force will find it far superior, as every other air force has. They'll count 1 engine as less complex than 2 engines for example (which is some real advanced stuff apparently)




Overall, I don't think the Swiss experts automatically rate the F-35 best in operating cost because LM says so, they'll be a bit more thorough ;)



not just LM saying it, but thanks for playing