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Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 20:47
by usnvo
SpudmanWP wrote:Why list the "combat radius" of the F-35 but the "ferry range" of everything else?

Taking the longest published combat radius of the F-35 in A2A mode (760nm), that gives us over 2800kn ferry range. Take the AAMs out (600+ kg) and it should beg above 3000km.


Why not? Jerry Hendrix has been quoting the combat radius of the F-35C versus the combat range of everything else for years. Even then, the typical Swiss mission doesn't even need drop tanks on an F-18.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2018, 20:59
by SpudmanWP
usnvo wrote:Why not?
Because to make an intellectually honest comparison, you need to use the same metrics.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 14:53
by swiss
Don't take this graphics to serious. They copy paste them on every article about the new evaluation. :wink:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2018, 16:46
by noth
The Swiss mission is mainly air defence and especially sky police. They currently are gearing up to have 24/7 policing of the skies with the F-18C, but it's taking time to train up everyone, including ATC personnel. So ferry range isn't much of a concern. the English Electric Lightning would have enough range!

I wonder if they'll bother evaluating air to ground at all as that's not a current mission and the Parliamentary Left keep blocking any attempts to buy A2G weapons of any kind. The referendum will happen but at this stage I have no idea if they'll manage to sell this acquisition to a population that seems to think neutrality doesn't require weapons.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 00:49
by usnvo
SpudmanWP wrote:
usnvo wrote:Why not?
Because to make an intellectually honest comparison, you need to use the same metrics.


I agree, but I don't think the article has anything to do with the actual evaluation, just someone, poorly, filling in what they think are the answers.

As for ferry range, I doubt it will be used at all in the comparison as the Swiss are not going anywhere. My guess is the actual evaluation range will be with a very specific set of criteria that the Swiss want and will not match any of the stated conditions for any of the aircraft being evaluated.

Finally, why do you assume that the intent of the magazine was to conduct an intellectually honest comparison? Is that ever the case?

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 02:40
by SpudmanWP
lol. I did not realize that the magazine was the one to make that mistake.

What passes for journalism these days really sux.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 16:38
by noth
The only time the Swiss Air Force ferry flights somewhere is to Norway to practice night flying and tanking. But that's not exactly a massive distance...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 16:57
by vanshilar
noth wrote:The Swiss mission is mainly air defence and especially sky police. They currently are gearing up to have 24/7 policing of the skies with the F-18C, but it's taking time to train up everyone, including ATC personnel. So ferry range isn't much of a concern. the English Electric Lightning would have enough range!


I wonder if loiter time then becomes a better proxy for range? I mean if you're using planes for sky policing then being able to stay in the air longer before coming down for a landing would be an asset, right? So that you don't need as many planes in the rotation.

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 20:04
by spazsinbad
The name of the department is hilarious but a small thing in the scheme of fings - GO Switzerland.
Switzerland Outlines New Air Defense Requirements
27 Mar 2018 David Donald

"On March 23 the Swiss Federal Department of Defence, Civil Protection, and Sports (DDPS) published a document setting out its basic requirements for both a new fighter (“NKF”—Neues Kampfflugzeug) and a ground-based air defense system (“Bodluv”—Bodengestützte-Luft-Verteidigung). The document names potential suppliers and establishes offset requirements....

...The fighter must be interoperable with those employed by neighboring states and NATO Partnership for Peace nations, particularly in terms of communications, IFF, and tactical datalinks. An off-the-shelf product is sought, with no “Helvetization” required beyond “minimal adjustments” such as may be necessary to integrate into the Swiss command and control network. Final assembly of the aircraft in Switzerland is “not a requirement, but is not ruled out.”

No fleet size is specified, but it must be able to maintain four aircraft on patrol during times of tension for at least four weeks, and the logistics network must be able to maintain operations for six months without any assured spares support from outside Switzerland. Ruag is named from the outset as the center for maintenance, repair, and overhaul. Another requirement is that at least part of the evaluation be conducted in Switzerland by Swiss pilots. The evaluation will consider costs based on procurement and operation of the equipment for 30 years....

...Offsets for both requirements are at least 100 percent, divided among direct offsets associated with the purchase (20 percent), indirect offsets for Switzerland’s defense/security industry (40 percent), and the remaining 40 percent for other industries. Moreover, the offsets must be distributed across Swiss regions along the lines of 65 percent for German-speaking regions, 30 percent for French speakers and 5 percent for the Italian area."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... quirements

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 27 Mar 2018, 22:49
by noth
spazsinbad wrote:The name of the department is hilarious but a small thing in the scheme of fings - GO Switzerland.


Well at least they're honest about it. "Youth & Sports" is a school program to ensure a minimum level of fitness (and preferably better) for future soldiers. Switzerland still has conscription (but you can opt for civil service instead).

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 28 Mar 2018, 10:27
by alex_f
One of the previous minister of defence (Adolf Ogi) was also very involved in several sport organizations, so apparently, they changed the name from "federal military department" (EMD) into VBS to please him. He always said it wasn't the case, but it looks pretty obvious.

Alex

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 22:12
by spazsinbad
Swiss call for bids over fighter jets
06 Jul 2018 Reuters/SDA-ATS/swissinfo.ch/ilj

"...Under its Air2030 programme, Switzerland is aiming to procure new combat aircraft and ground-based defences in a programme valued at CHF8 billion ($8.1 billion). It is the biggest arms procurement programme in modern Swiss history....

...Armasuisse, the Federal Office for Defence Procurement, said it was asking the firms to submit pricing for 30 or 40 planes, including logistics and guided missiles, as well as an assessment of the number of aircraft necessary to fulfil the Swiss Air Force's needs. The manufacturers have until January 2019 to submit an offer, after which the planes will undergo tests and a second tender round will be opened, with the plan to finish the assessment by the end of 2020....

Vote
In March the government said that Swiss voters would have a say on whether to buy new fighter jets – but not on the type of jet...."

Source: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/next-step_ ... s/44241880

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 23:47
by SpudmanWP
Save me some seats & I'll bring the popcorn. :roll:

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jul 2018, 00:10
by rheonomic
I'm sure it will work better than last time...

Re: Swiss Lightning?

Unread postPosted: 09 Jan 2019, 18:49
by noth
I think you're all going to love this, fellow forum dwellers:

The Swiss Socialist Party has a new, cheaper plan for the next aircraft and surface to air defence. They're advocating for advanced jet trainers (M-346, L-159 or KAI T-50) to replace the F/A-18s and F-5s! They want to buy a dozen till the F/A-18s retire at the end of the next decade, at the tune of 10 to 20 millions CHF (basically the same in USD) a piece. Massive savings, but as we know, totally unable to do even Air Policing properly. They want to wait till the SCAF and/or BAE Tempest come to fruition before supposedly buying either of those.

Once again the SP demonstrate their willingness to disarm the Air Force using the salami tactic of denying them all and any improvement in equipment and numbers. Always pushing for an an alternative acqusition instead of approving the current proposal from the Defence Ministry. They've even suggested buying a transport plane such as a C-295 instead of buying new fighter aircraft "because that's more urgent to assist the Swisscoy (Swiss troops assisting in Kosovo) and delivering international aid or disaster relief".

Except that 20 years ago they voted against that proposal, calling it unnecessary expenditure.

All the beef here (in French, I'm afraid): http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... 66748.html