Swiss F-35 Lightning?

[edpop]

I still love the original English Electric Lightning..............twin engines mounted on top of each..........Mach 2.
Ugly as sin but could carry everything under the sun!

[pron]

F-35 Proposal Submitted to Swiss Government
19 Nov 2020 LM PR

"FORT WORTH, Texas, Nov. 19, 2020 – On Nov. 18, the U.S. government and Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) submitted an F-35 proposal to the Swiss government in support of Switzerland’s New Fighter Aircraft (NFA) competition.

Lockheed Martin is also offering an option for the assembly of four aircraft in Switzerland to ensure the Swiss Air Force and Swiss industry gain an understanding of how to maintain the F-35 airframe and its advanced capabilities for the life of the program.

This sounds rather strange - assembly of four(4) F-35 in Switzerland....

[magitsu]

This sounds rather strange - assembly of four(4) F-35 in Switzerland....

You just need to look past the first impression. It's not offered because production itself would make any sense. Instead it's considered as a step to build up maintenance capability from the increased knowledge what assembling a few frames entails. Somewhat wasteful, but if it's seen as valuable to ensure the sovereignty/required level of independent maintenance ability... anyway, it's an option.

The assembly of all Swiss airframes would make no economical sense and wouldn't be supported by the F-35 partners.

Finland is very likely to be offered something simiar. The needs might vary considerably. But for the Hornets, the Swiss were actually the ones that went with deeper and more expensive solution. They ordered the only titanium center barrel classic Hornets and did plenty of intricate maintenance. Whereas Finland didn't want to make anything that would've required disassembling and rebuilding the whole frames besides few case studies (few wings were swapped until it was deemed uneconomic). Though I'm not sure whether the Swiss did any center barrel replacements like Australia and Canada did for their older variants.

[spazsinbad]

Aircraft makers sweeten their offers in high-stakes Swiss warplane race
29 Nov 2020 Sebastian Sprenger & Valerie Insinna

"COLOGNE, Germany, and WASHINGTON — Four aircraft makers have submitted final offers for Switzerland’s $6.5 billion aircraft program, with Airbus and Lockheed Martin touting different approaches to assembling their planes locally. Nov. 18 was the deadline for the quartet of hopeful vendors, which also includes Boeing and Dassault, to deliver their vision — and price — for one of the largest procurement programs in Europe.

Switzerland is looking for somewhere between 36 and 40 new aircraft to police the country’s airspace. The degree of local industry participation is shaping up to be a major factor for the famously independence-minded Swiss.... The Swiss are expected to make a decision in early summer 2021, following a referendum vote this September that narrowly greenlighted the budget....

...Lockheed Martin, with its F-35, also has high hopes for the Swiss competition, hoping to broaden the plane’s user base in Europe. The company’s offer includes a basic program of 36 jets, with options for an additional four aircraft, Mike Kelley, who leads the company’s F-35 efforts in Switzerland, said during a Nov. 19 roundtable with reporters.

While Switzerland would be able to purchase parts through the spares pool shared by all F-35 operators, the offer also contains a six-month deployed spares package — a separate pot of parts that would be managed by the Swiss government, which was necessary to meet Swiss autonomy requirements.

To meet requirements for industrial participation, Switzerland would have the opportunity to domestically produce about 400 canopies and transparencies for F-35 aircraft, and Lockheed would establish a European hub for the maintenance, repair and overhaul of F 35 canopies and transparencies in Switzerland. In addition, the country would take on certain F-35 engine and airframe sustainment projects focused on maintaining the Swiss Air Force’s operational autonomy, Kelley said.

Lockheed also plans to partner with Swiss industry to create a cyber center of excellence, which would prototype a unique data network for Switzerland and build a test bed that would allow Swiss companies to test cyber capabilities in a secure environment.

On top of those efforts, Lockheed is offering one last industrial participation opportunity to Switzerland. For an additional cost, Switzerland will be able to conduct the final assembly of four F-35 aircraft at existing RUAG facilities in Emmen, allowing the Swiss technicians that currently work on the country’s aging Hornet fleet to build a deeper knowledge of the aircraft’s design.

That option would add a “significant cost” to the total program, Kelley said, but could allow for overall savings throughout the life cycle of the program...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... lane-race/

[noth]

Quick political update: Switzerland once again rejected a ban on exporting weapons via ballot initiative by the same people behind the referendum on the acquisition of aircraft : https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-pois ... s/46178438 . This time it went against them by 57.5% and 19.5 cantons, so I don't think they have the muscle to disrupt the program further. We'll see what their allies in Parliament come up with but things are looking good for the time being.

[spazsinbad]

Bern closes in on fighter selection [single page PDF of entire article attached]
Jan 2021 Craig Hoyle

"Alpine nation’s search for next generation fleet is on target for conclusion by middle of 2021, after receiving final offers...

...Optional extras
Mike Kelley, Lockheed’s managing director in Switzerland, says its proposal includes 36 F-35As with associated training and sustainment services, plus “discrete pricing” for an optional four additional examples, to be built in the country. Should Switzerland select the stealthy type and take up the local assembly offer, work would be conducted at RUAG’s facilities in Emmen using Swiss personnel, and also cover test activities.

“Switzerland has some very unique requirements for autonomy and sovereignty in operations,” says Kelley. The experience gained from in-country assembly would boost its ability to perform MRO tasks over an expected 30-yearplus operational life, he adds.

Switzerland would join Lockheed’s F-35 global sustainment programme, and, at the request of Armasuisse, also supply a deployed spares package sufficient to support six months of normal operations.

Kelley says the offer contains a “limited” weapons package. “That package is a little bit smaller than many people would expect, but that’s because the existing inventory of munitions that the Swiss air force has for the Hornet fleet are by and large fully operational with the F-35,” he notes.

Lockheed has identified companies to place work with in “all three language regions” of the country, including directly on the Swiss aircraft. It is proposing to make Switzerland a “European centre” for F-35 transparencies and canopies, and to establish a national cyber centre, “with a testbed for network environments”.

“We believe that when fully evaluated by Armasuisse, it will be concluded that the entire 40-aircraft programme and all the other aspects will fit within the approved Swiss budget,” Kelley says. F-35A deliveries would run from 2027 to 2030...."

Source: Flight International January 2021

[doge]

What Fighter jets does "Smaller jets" refer to?
https://jp.reuters.com/article/swiss-vo ... KL8N2GE2EB

'Who is our enemy?' Neutral Switzerland votes on fighter jets
John Revill September 21, 2020
Voters get their say on Sunday Sept. 27. Approving funding in the binding referendum would let the government decide next year among the Eurofighter from Airbus AIR.PA, the Rafale from France's Dassault AVMD.PA, Boeing's BA.N F/A-18 Super Hornet, or the Lockheed Martin LMT.N F35-A Lightning II.
The aircraft would replace Switzerland’s aging fleet of 30 F/A-18 Hornets which will go out of service in 2030.
Seiler Graf said cheaper alternatives, such as a fighter version of Leonardo's LDOF.MI M346 trainer, offered better value than the "expensive toys" under consideration.
“We need new aircraft, that is not disputed, but buying lighter, simpler aircraft would be enough,” she said. “It would be better to have a Fiat than a Maserati.”
Voters six years ago rejected the purchase of Gripen jets from Sweden. In 1989 a proposal to scrap its entire army got 35% of voter support.
Pollster Lukas Golder from GFS.Bern said voters are likely to back the plan to buy the jets. Armed neutrality is crucial to how Switzerland defines itself, he said, going back to the belief a strong army deterred invasion by Nazi Germany in World War II. The Pope’s Swiss guards are also a reminder of the country’s mercenary past.

Lawmaker Thomas Hurter from the right-wing Swiss People’s Party, a former air force pilot, said Switzerland had to protect itself without relying on other countries.
“If we don’t replace these old aircraft, that means we have no air force, there is no protection any more and we are not fulfilling our constitution,” he said.
Smaller jets could not fly high enough, he said, or have the acceleration needed to react quickly to emergencies.
“We don’t know what’s going to happen in the next 50 years,” Hurter said. “You need to have the fire brigade ready when there is a burning house, otherwise it’s too late.”

[herciv]

Last weeks before choice :
https://www.laliberte.ch/news/suisse/le ... ote-604638
The take-off is getting closer. By the end of June, the Federal Council will have chosen the army's new fighter aircraft. After the people approved the six billion franc budget last year, albeit by a hair's breadth, all that remains is for Defense Minister Viola Amherd to submit her favorite to her colleagues. Four contenders are fighting it out: the French Rafale (from Dassault), the Euro-German Eurofighter (Airbus), and the American F/A-18 Super Hornet (Boeing) and F-35 (Lockheed Martin).

Europe is the favorite against the United States. Not necessarily for the purely technical qualities of its jets, but for their "global package", meaning the political and strategic aspects. An American victory would be a surprise, according to some observers.

The general opinion is that in the air, all competitors are equal. The results of the tests in Payerne (VD) in 2019 are still secret, but "all are above the bar", summarizes a specialist ....

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[madrat]

All equal because they simply exceed the bar set? The delta of performance be damned.

[ricnunes]

The general opinion is that in the air, all competitors are equal. The results of the tests in Payerne (VD) in 2019 are still secret, but "all are above the bar", summarizes a specialist ....

LOL, that bar must be extremely low

If any European aircraft wins against the F-35 this will be purely based on politics, that's for sure!

[mixelflick]

Smaller jets could not fly high enough, he said, or have the acceleration needed to react quickly to emergencies.

Uh-oh.... The forthcoming Gripen losses in Switzerland, Canada etc are really going to sting. I predict the E/F program will be shuddered after these debacles, at which point Brazil will be on its own. Good luck with that..

[XanderCrews]

Smaller jets could not fly high enough, he said, or have the acceleration needed to react quickly to emergencies.

Uh-oh.... The forthcoming Gripen losses in Switzerland,

It already lost there. Its looking forward to losing in Canada and Finland now

[noth]

Well, you wouldn't believe me back in September when I warned they might do this, and now they have: The Swiss Socialist Party, the Green Party and the Group for a Switzerland without an Army have today launched ballot initiatives against both the F-35 and the F/A-18E/F in case either is selected next month. This is of course not respecting the unwritten rules of Swiss politics of accepting the people's decision from the first time around, but bloody typical when it comes to the leftwing parties these days.

The reasons given are: lack of sovereignty over the system, "the CIA would interfere" (typical leftist trope), the F-35 has too many technical deficiencies including ones that could kill the pilot, the F/A-18E/F's OBOGS system could kill the pilot through its deficiencies.

The European aircraft are not concerned by this political manoeuver, just when tomorrow the decision on whether further European negociations on a possible institutional treaty is to be made. The whole thing stinks of astroturfing by the pro-European minority that wants Switzerland in the EU and has been very active in the media in the last month.

https://www.letemps.ch/suisse/deux-init ... americains (in French)

[magitsu]

Well, you wouldn't believe me back in September when I warned they might do this

Yeah, but what are its actual effects? If it's just "for the history books" then it's meaningless. It's not surprise to anyone that there could be written protests. Especially after seeing how the proposal barely passed (imo it clearly would've failed if it was about whether to buy F-35 or Super Hornet - they are so easy to object with imaginary reasons).
How many names are needed for anything? Or is it just something that the politicians need to interpret?

[noth]

Well, you wouldn't believe me back in September when I warned they might do this

Yeah, but what are its actual effects? If it's just "for the history books" then it's meaningless. It's not surprise to anyone that there could be written protests. Especially after seeing how the proposal barely passed (imo it clearly would've failed if it was about whether to buy F-35 or Super Hornet - they are so easy to object with imaginary reasons).
How many names are needed for anything? Or is it just something that the politicians need to interpret?

100'000 signatures are required for each of them. Then it has to make it's way through Parliament (which usually takes 18-36 months, sometimes longer), and finally will need a double majority of the people and the cantons to win when voters are asked to make their choice.